Deviate

"No one motivation is ‘better’ than any other. We travel with different motivations at different times, and they sometimes overlap." –Ash Bhardwaj In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Ash talk about curiosity as a motivation for travel (1:30); the ancient Greek concepts of happiness that underpin human motivations like travel, and how mentors influence travel (14:00); serendipity as a motivation for travel, Type One versus Type Two fun, and the dangers of "voluntourism" (21:00); how "awe" differs from "wonder," how to bring these perspectives home, and how "eroticism" can be a part of travel (36:30); "grief travel," and how one's sense for travel can become intertwined with a sense of hope (48:30). Ash Bhardwaj is an award-winning journalist and broadcaster, and the author of Why We Travel. Notable Links: Paris travel memoir workshop, with Rolf Potts (creative writing class) Banana Pancake Trail (backpacker route in Southeast Asia) Hedonism (philosophical concept involving pleasure) Eudaimonia (philosophical concept involving happiness) A Moveable Feast (posthumous memoir by Ernest Hemingway) Georges Perec (French novelist) Beginner's Mind (Zen Buddhist concept) Levison Wood (British explorer) Arsenal F.C. (English soccer team) Joseph Kony (Ugandan warlord) Flow (focused mental state) Mihály Csíkszentmihályi (Hungarian-American psychologist) NGO (non-governmental aid organizations) Air Vanuatu (national airline in the South Pacific) Hokitika (town in New Zealand) Pounamu (stone valued by the Māori) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

"Time spent traveling on trains, just staring out the window: I don't think that's lost time. That's when we have our best ideas." –Kim Krizan In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Kiki introduce their interview with Kim Krizan by talking about their own personal love of the movie Before Sunrise, and how they first experienced it (0:30); Kim talks about her early travel experiences in Czechoslovakia as a teenager, and in England in her twenties (14:30); how the low-information technological moment of travel in the 1990s doesn't exist anymore in the 2020s (23:30); how Kim became involved with helping Richard Linklater write Before Sunrise, and their creative process in working together (34:00); Kim's ongoing relationship to the movie, 30 years after it came out (44:00); and an "Easter egg" segment featuring Kiki reading Melissa Fite Johnson's poem "Before Sunrise on the VCR" (55:30). Kim Krizan (@kimkrizan) is the Oscar-nominated cowriter of the Before Sunrise movies, and the author of Spy in the House of Anaïs Nin. Kristen “Kiki” Bush is an actress, known for Paterno, Liberal Arts, Suits, Law & Order: SVU, and onstage performances at Manhattan Theatre Club, The Public, and Lincoln Center. Notable Links: 2025 Screenwriting in Paris class, with Kim Krizan (creative writing class) Paris Writing Workshops (summer learning-vacation classes) Before Sunrise (1995 movie) Before Sunset (2004 movie) Ethan Hawke (American actor and director) Julie Delpy (French actress and director) Richard Linklater (American filmmaker) Kristen "Kiki" Bush in People, Places & Things (2022 play at the Studio Theatre) Thoughts on watching the Before trilogy, 25 years on, by Rolf Potts (essay) BritRail (train pass in the UK) London A-Z (street atlas) Siouxsie and the Banshees (British rock band) Wembley Stadium (London venue) Continuous partial attention (behavior) Slacker (1990 film) Dazed and Confused (1993 film) Anaïs Nin (French-American diarist and novelist) Eurail Pass (train pass to 33 European countries) The Game Camera (trailer for 2025 short film made by Kiki and Rolf) Uncle Vanya (play by Anton Chekhov) Robert Falls (former artistic director of Chicago's Goodman Theater) Melissa Fite Johnson (poet) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

"Time spent traveling on trains, just staring out the window: I don't think that's lost time. That's when we have our best ideas." –Kim Krizan In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Kiki introduce their interview with Kim Krizan by talking about their own personal love of the movie Before Sunrise, and how they first experienced it (0:30); Kim talks about her early travel experiences in Czechoslovakia as a teenager, and in England in her twenties (14:30); how the low-information technological moment of travel in the 1990s doesn't exist anymore in the 2020s (23:30); how Kim became involved with helping Richard Linklater write Before Sunrise, and their creative process in working together (34:00); Kim's ongoing relationship to the movie, 30 years after it came out (44:00); and an "Easter egg" segment featuring Kiki reading Melissa Fite Johnson's poem "Before Sunrise on the VCR" (55:30). Kim Krizan (@kimkrizan) is the Oscar-nominated cowriter of the Before Sunrise movies, and the author of Spy in the House of Anaïs Nin. Kristen “Kiki” Bush is an actress, known for Paterno, Liberal Arts, Suits, Law & Order: SVU, and onstage performances at Manhattan Theatre Club, The Public, and Lincoln Center. Notable Links: 2025 Screenwriting in Paris class, with Kim Krizan (creative writing class) Paris Writing Workshops (summer learning-vacation classes) Before Sunrise (1995 movie) Before Sunset (2004 movie) Ethan Hawke (American actor and director) Julie Delpy (French actress and director) Richard Linklater (American filmmaker) Kristen "Kiki" Bush in People, Places & Things (2022 play at the Studio Theatre) Thoughts on watching the Before trilogy, 25 years on, by Rolf Potts (essay) BritRail (train pass in the UK) London A-Z (street atlas) Siouxsie and the Banshees (British rock band) Wembley Stadium (London venue) Continuous partial attention (behavior) Slacker (1990 film) Dazed and Confused (1993 film) Anaïs Nin (French-American diarist and novelist) Eurail Pass (train pass to 33 European countries) The Game Camera (trailer for 2025 short film made by Kiki and Rolf) Uncle Vanya (play by Anton Chekhov) Robert Falls (former artistic director of Chicago's Goodman Theater) Melissa Fite Johnson (poet) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“If you're someone who's always dreamed of going to Mars but you don't have the time to become an astronaut, you can just visit the Atacama Desert.” –Mark Johanson In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Mark talk about how Mark became interested in the Atacama Desert, and his experience in other world deserts (1:45); what Mark sought when he traveled through the region (16:00); what it's like to experience the area, and why it's known as "Mars on Earth" (26:00); what travelers can do there, and what it's like for Mark to live in Chile (36:30). Mark Johanson (@markonthemap) is an American journalist and travel writer based in Santiago, Chile. His first book is Mars on Earth: Wanderings in the World’s Driest Desert. Notable Links: Atacama Desert (desert plateau located in Chile) Coober Pedy (town in the Australian Outback) Desert Solitaire, by Edward Abbey (book) The English Patient, by Michael Ondaatje (book) The Songlines, by Bruce Chatwin (book) Man in the Landscape, by Paul Shepard (book) Chinchorro mummies (ancient remains in the Atacama Desert) Qhapaq Ñan (Inca road system) Arica (province in Chile) Altiplano (Andean Plateau) Lands of Lost Borders, by Kate Harris (book) Pan-American Highway (road network) Cusco (city in Peru) San Pedro de Atacama (town in Chile) Elqui Valley (wine and astronomy region in Chile) Gabriela Mistral (Nobel Prize-winning poet) Pisco (fermented spirit made from grapes) Pisco sour (cocktail) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Travel does not require leaving your city or state or country, but it does require leaving your comfort zone. And that can happen a block or two away from where you live.” –Chloe Cooper Jones In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Chloe talk about why a section about “slum tourism” was cut out of Rolf’s newest book The Vagabond’s Way (2:30); how so much of what we talk about when we talk about travel has industrialized middle-class presumptions (7:30); the motivations and ethical considerations that underpin seeking out disadvantaged neighborhoods as a traveler (15:00); how preconceived narratives and “cultural extraction” often motivates people’s experience in a city, in ways that do not always benefit the city (25:00); what “dark tourism” and “voluntourism” are, and what the ethical ramifications are for travelers (32:00); and the difference between articulating ideals, and the work of acting on those ideals (45:00). Chloe Cooper Jones (@CCooperJones) is the author of Easy Beauty: A Memoir. She has been a Pulitzer Prize finalist in Feature Writing, and was the recipient of a Whiting Creative Nonfiction Grant, as well as a Howard Foundation Grant from Brown University. Notable Links: Integrating love of travel & love of home (Deviate episode 210) The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) The Most Beautiful Walk in the World, by John Baxter (book) Slum tourism (tours to poor areas of a city) Poetics, by Aristotle (dramatic theory) Republic, by Plato (Socratic dialogue) Immanuel Kant (philosopher) Slumdog Millionaire (2008 movie) Apartheid (system of institutionalized racial segregation) Favela (slum in Brazil) Yelp (crowd-sourced business review app) Dark tourism (tourism to places associated with tragedy) 1990 Hesston tornado outbreak (Kansas weather event) Tuol Sleng Genocide Museum (tourism attraction in Cambodia) Saw (movie franchise) Voluntourism (volunteering-themed travel) Hurricane Katrina (2005 Gulf Coast weather event) Lower Ninth Ward (New Orleans neighborhood) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“The most difficult part about traveling the world isn’t actually the logistics of a trip—it’s finding the courage to go in the first place.” —Matt Kepnes In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Matt talk about how his travel style has changed over the years, and how fears affect people’s travels (1:00); strategies for saving money on the road (10:30); and strategies for finding activities on the road, and where to start a long-term journey (19:30). Matt Kepnes (@nomadicmatt), commonly known as “Nomadic Matt,” is a travel blogger and the New York Times bestselling author of Travel the World on $75 a Day and Ten Years a Nomad. Notable Links: The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Levison Wood (explorer) Van Life before #VanLife (Deviate episode) Home exchange (lodging service) Trusted Housesitters (lodging service) Travel Ladies (lodging app) EatWith,com (hospitality service) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“We do a lot of writing alone, in our own space. But writing is not a solitary practice. The business of writing requires a community.” –Angelique Stevens In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Angelique talk about what her writing life is like in the decade since she first took Rolf’s Paris class, with the ambition of becoming a travel writer, and how her travel book transformed into something different (2:00); how Angelique gave herself permission to write about herself in an honest way, and what craft lessons have helped her writing (8:00); and Angelique’s reading habits as a writer, her writing process, and how she came to think of herself as a writer (23:00). Angelique Stevens‘ is creative writing professor whose nonfiction has been published in Best American Essays two years in a row (2022, edited by Alexander Chee and 2023 edited by Vivian Gornick), Granta, LitHub, The New England Review, and a number of anthologies. Notable Links: Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf’s annual writing classes) Zapatistas (political group in in Chiapas, Mexico) Bootstrapping myth (narrative about self-starting process) Haudenosaunee (Iroquois indigenous people from the Northeast U.S) Zora Neale Hurston (American writer) Toni Morrison (American novelist) Melissa Febos (American writer) Honor, by Thrity Umrigar (book) The Situation and the Story, by Vivian Gornick (book) A Little Devil in America, by Hanif Abdurraqib (book) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Anybody with curiosity and wanderlust can have their own Hippie Trail. They just need to get away from home, embrace the world, and have an adventure.” –Rick Steves In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Rick talk about Rick’s 1990s book Asia Through the Back Door, and how Rick recently rediscovered the old Asia travel journals he kept as a young man (2:30); how Rick prepared for the journey in the era before there were many guidebooks to the regions he was headed (9:30); what the experience of travel was like for Rick and his friend Gene on the Hippie Trail, including spiritual experiences (18:00); how travel can expand your sense of community, and diversify your sense for what wealth and poverty is (28:00); Rick’s first experience of smoking hash on the Hippie Trail, and how it gave him an appreciation for the joy of travel (34:00); and what lessons Rick brought home from the experience (39:00). Rick Steves (@ricksteveseurope) is a travel expert, author, and TV host who specializes in Europe. His newest book is On the Hippie Trail: Istanbul to Kathmandu and the Making of a Travel Writer. Notable Links: Kevin Kelly on the lost world of 1970s Asia (Deviate episode) Travel can be a way to see the future, with Kevin Kelly (Deviate episode) Vagabonding pioneer Ed Buryn (Deviate episode) Hippie trail (Asia travel route in the 1960s and 1970s) Asia Through the Back Door, by Rick Steves (book) Iranian revolution (1979 overthrow of U.S. backed government) Soviet invasion of Afghanistan (conflict that started in 1979) Van Life before #VanLife (Deviate episode) Lonely Planet (guidebook publisher) Rick Steves’ Europe (TV show) Bucket shop (wholesale of air tickets) The Man Who Would be King (1975 film) ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America) LCMS (Lutheran Church – Missouri Synod) Bread for the World (Christian advocacy organization) Herat (city in Afghanistan) Freak Street (neighborhood near Durbar Square in Kathmandu) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“My life has often forced me to watch the Super Bowl in unusual circumstances. The first Super Bowl found me in boarding school in England, huddled under my bedclothes with an illegal transistor radio.” –Pico Iyer In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Pico talk about the novelty of two travel writers talking about the Super Bowl, and Pico’s NFL fandom (4:00); how sports can be a therapeutic diversion from the more serious aspects of life, and which players are Rolf and Pico’s all-time favorites (13:00); Pico and Rolf’s old articles for Sports Illustrated, and how narratives attach themselves to sporting contests (21:00); and what Pico’s plan and predication is for the 2025 Super Bowl (32:30). Pico Iyer (@PicoIyer) is a novelist, essayist, and author. His newest book is Aflame: Learning from Silence. Notable Links: A personal history of being a lifelong pro-sports fan (Deviate Super Bowl special 2020) The Native Americans that beat the NFL Giants (Deviate Super Bowl special 2023) Sports, superstitions, and sacraments (Deviate Super Bowl special 2024) Pico Iyer on solitude, stillness, and silence (Deviate episode) Pascal’s wager (philosophical argument) Edgar Allan Poe (American poet) Wichita North (high school in Kansas) Sports Illustrated (magazine) Eton’s Brutal, Incomprehensible Wall Game, by Pico Iyer (1995 article) Murder of football player in Kansas shakes town, by Rolf Potts (2012 article) Ralph Henry Barbour (early 20th century sports fiction writer) Notes On the Narrative Conundrum of Baseball Fandom, by Rolf Potts (article) Vin Scully (sportscaster for the LA Dodgers) Chick Hearn (sportscaster for the LA Lakers) Bill Simmons (podcaster) Nick Wright (sportscaster) 2014 American League Wild Card Game (Royals-A’s baseball playoff game) Wesley Morris (media critic) NFL football links: Baltimore Ravens (NFL football team with literary mascot) Derrick Henry (NFL running back) Tony Romo (retired NFL quarterback and commentator) Chris Collinsworth (retired NFL wide receiver and commentator) Jared Goff (NFL quarterback for the Detroit Lions) Josh Allen (NFL quarterback for the Buffalo Bills) Super Bowl I (first AFL–NFL World Championship Game) Max McGee (former NFL end for the Green Bay Packers) Super Bowl LI (2017 Falcons-Patriots Super Bowl) Super Bowl LV (2021 Chiefs-Buccaneers Super Bowl) John Brodie (former NFL quarterback for the San Francisco 49ers) Brock Purdy (NFL quarterback for the San Francisco 49ers) Barry Sanders (retired NFL running back for the Detroit Lions) Joe Montana (former NFL quarterback for the San Francisco 49ers) Saquon Barkley (NFL running back for the Philadelphia Eagles) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“In solitude, I often feel closer to the people I care for than when they’re in the same room.” –Pico Iyer In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Pico talk about how the best travels are often counterbalanced with a kind of stillness, in which one can find one’s “best self” (3:00); Pico’s decades-long experiences with monks in a California monastery, the benefits of a “childlike attitude” toward life, and how “fire” can be a metaphor for spiritual life (12:00); how Pico’s solitude is informed by, and in conversation with, nature (22:00); Pico’s engaged relationship with spiritual communities, even though he is not religious (30:00); the “counterculture” spiritual tradition that grew up around Big Sur, California, and the power of longing (39:00); and how solitude can be a gateway to other people (47:00). Pico Iyer (@PicoIyer) is a novelist, essayist, and author. His newest book is Aflame: Learning from Silence. Notable Links: Pico Iyer on what Japan can teach us about life (Deviate episode 73) The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Henri Nouwen (writer and theologian) New Seeds of Contemplation, by Thomas Merton (book) The 14th Dalai Lama (spiritual leader) The Snow Leopard, by Peter Matthiessen (book) Richard Powers (novelist) Desert Fathers (early Christian hermits and ascetics) Sign of Jonas, by Thomas Merton (book) Days of Heaven (1978 film) 4′33″ by John Cage (musical composition) New Camaldoli Hermitage (hermitage in Big Sur, California) Rigveda (ancient Indian collection of hymns) The Woman Lit by Fireflies, by Jim Harrison (book) Sarmoung Brotherhood (esoteric Sufi brotherhood) Henry Miller (novelist) Esalen Institute (retreat center in Big Sur) Bittersweet, by Susan Cain (book) Leonard Cohen (songwriter) Ludwig Wittgenstein (philosopher) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.