... and very messy.It's not everyday Saved by the City hosts Katelyn and Roxy get invited to be on documentaries, but it is every Hillsong documentary. The latest documentary treatment of the global megachurch’s descent into scandal recently premiered on FX and Hulu. And it featured our very own Ms. Beaty with some real zingers.It also featured Carl Lentz. Like a lot of Carl Lentz.The disgraced former pastor of Hillsong NYC took center stage once again and not everyone is happy about it. We talk with Janice Lagata, a former volunteer at Hillsong in Manhattan and fellow interviewee for the documentary, about how she felt after watching and why it prompted her to write an open letter to the director.GUEST: Janice Lagata is a musician, writer and host of two exvangelical podcasts: "God Has Not Given" and "Bad Words." 

Mary, the mentor of Jesus.A lifetime of Bible reading and the women who surrounded Jesus still feel so flat, so much a part of the flannel graph background. Why? In this episode, Katelyn and Roxy explore how their perceptions of the women in the New Testament were formed and why it's still so difficult to conceive of them as real, three-dimensional people. They are joined by New Testament scholar, Nijay K. Gupta, who offers more than a few clues about how and why the women around Jesus became side characters.GUEST: Nijay K. Gupta is professor of New Testament at Northern Seminary and author of several books, including his newest, "Tell Her Story: How Women Led, Taught, and Ministered in the Early Church."

ENTP! 2 wing 3! Let's talk about you and me!We'll admit, a podcast episode all about our personalities might be a bit self-indulgent. But also fun! So bear with us as we dive headfirst into the various and sundry methods for categorizing oneself.This week, Katelyn and Roxy go old school (Myers-Briggs), new school (StrengthsFinder) and a little woo-woo (Enneagram, just kidding, don't come after us). Plus, a journey into the desert with our spiritual guide — and podcast producer — Jonathan Woodward. 

Let's go shatter a glass steeple or two, shall we?When it comes to women in ministry, the gains have been ever so gradual. And at the top levels of leadership — from seminary faculty and deans to senior clergy positions — women seem to have hit a wall. Fewer than 25 percent of seminary faculty and deans are women, as are 11 percent of presidents, according to the Association of Theological Schools.This week Katelyn and Roxy are joined by two of those rarities — the Rev. Drs. Lakeesha Walrond and Serene Jones — who have shattered plenty of stained glass ceilings in their careers. As seminary presidents in New York City, the two are partnering together, hoping to offer more opportunities for future faith leaders. We talk to them about the realities of ministry today, the stakes women in seminary face and why we should actually be worrying about the men.GUESTS: Rev. Dr. LaKeesha Walrond is the first Black woman to serve as president of New York Theological Seminary and a preaching pastor at First Corinthians Baptist Church NYC. Rev. Dr. Serene Jones is the first woman to serve as president of Union Theological Seminary and the author of "Call It Grace: Finding Meaning in a Fractured World."

You sound like your mother.Is an essential project of a daughter's life trying to understand her mother? On this episode of the podcast — on this week of Mother's Day — we reflect on the lessons we learned from our moms, how we saw them as teens, how we see them now (SPOILER: it's changed). Plus, we are joined by Marcie Alvis Walker in a wide ranging conversation about the power of motherhood — for good and ill — and the generational legacies we carry as daughters who sometimes become mothers.And, you might have guessed it, an appearance by Karen & Sharon themselves!GUESTS: Marcie Alvis Walker is the author of the new book “Everybody Come Alive” and is the creator of the popular Instagram account Black Coffee with White Friends. E. Karen Beaty is a retired children’s librarian and early childhood education director. (She is also Katelyn’s mom.) Sharon Stone is a retired pre-K and Kindergarten teacher with more than 50 years’ experience. (And she’s Roxy’s mom.)

Two words: chubby bunny.From the games that were downright gross to the Mountain Dew fueled lock-ins, youth group culture was its own special kinda weird. But was it good?On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy reminiscence on the lessons we learned as teens in our church basements (we shared a certain oldest daughter perfectionism that youth group culture seemed to heighten, even spiritualize). We're joined by author and researcher Sheila Wray Gregoire who shares some of her findings on how youth group teachings affect teen girls well into adulthood — for better and worse.Plus: news from the Brio beat!GUEST: Sheila Wray Gregoire is the author of several books including "She Deserves Better: Raising Girls to Resist Toxic Teachings on Sex, Self, and Speaking Up," a followup to the "The Great Sex Rescue: The Lies You've Been Taught and How to Recover What God Intended." You can find more of her work at BareMarriage.com.

It's an evangelical origin story.Who are the evangelicals? It's a contested question with a long history of answers — answers that depend largely on who is holding the mic at any given time.In this episode of the podcast, Katelyn and Roxy examine our own roles within the traditional gatekeeping institutions of evangelicalism and reflect on how we feel about them now. We are joined by Isaac B. Sharp for a tour of evangelicalism's defining decades and how the movement was shaped in part by who was kicked out.GUEST: Isaac B. Sharp is the author of the book "The Other Evangelicals: A Story of Liberal, Black, Progressive, Feminist, and Gay Christians — and the Movement that Pushed Them Out." He is a visiting assistant professor at Union Theological Seminary and the director of online and part-time programs there.

Maybe beauty could be a little less fleeting?This week, Katelyn and Roxy dive face-first into the prickly subject of cosmetic procedures. They're not just for Hollywood stars and Dallas housewives anymore. But just because everyone is getting a little work done, should we? Would the Proverbs 31 woman — the biblical model for all things feminine — go under the knife? The laser? The needle?All this, plus skin care guru Jamie B. Golden on the do's and don'ts (and maybes) on your dermatologist's extensive/expensive menu.GUEST: Jamie B. Golden is a podcaster (give a listen to "The Bible Binge" and "The Popcast") and a skin care enthusiast (check out her 10-step skin care routine).

Living large on the Lord.$150,000 on a three-day luxury retreat in Cancun. $37,000 on flowers. $13,000 on high tea. $16,000 on custom skateboards.These are just a few of the line items recently uncovered in Hillsong financial statements. Last month, a leader in Australia’s Parliament, armed with 17 binders full of documents, accused Hillsong leaders of breaking financial laws in Australia and beyond, specifically of fraud, money laundering and tax evasion.We figured: we've covered sex and power at Hillsong, seems about time to do money. On this week's episode, Katelyn and Roxy take a look at the sprawling implications of Hillsong's newest scandal — not just for the Australian megachurch, but for wealthy pastors everywhere.When it comes to luxury in the house of the Lord, turns out we've got a lot of thoughts.Plus, the results of a Twitter poll — because you all had plenty to say too!

Sometimes going through the motions is the whole point.On this episode, which drops amid Holy Week, Roxy and Katelyn reflect on the beauty, meaning, and mystery they have found in the church liturgy. Instead of feeling rote, the rhythms and prayers of the church have become nourishing for us. Kind of like a favorite meal. They are joined by the Most Rev. Michael Curry, the presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church, the American branch of the Anglican Communion. He talks about his approach to evangelism, his hopes for the church as it could be facing schism, and how he tries to ask 'what would Jesus do?' even when the answer is rather annoying.GUEST: The Most Rev. Michael Curry is presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church, the first person of color to serve in the role. He is an author, activist, and appeared on the global stage as he officiated Prince Harry and Meghan Markle's wedding in 2018.