Charlie Swanton, a renowned oncologist and researcher, discusses a range of fascinating topics in the podcast, from his groundbreaking discovery in evolutionary biology to advancements in lung cancer research. He also delves into cancer heterogeneity, the impact of air pollution on lung cancer risk, environmental pollutants' connection to disease pathology, nano plastic microplastics in tumor tissue, the role of AI in cancer research, and the intersection of AI, aging, and cancer development.

In this podcast, Thomas Czech, Distinguished Professor at the University of Colorado, Boulder, with a lineage of remarkable contributions on RNA, ribozyme, and telomeres, discuss why RNA is so incredibly versatile.Video snippet from our conversation. Full videos of all Ground Truths podcasts can be seen on YouTube here. The audios are also available on Apple and Spotify.Transcript with links to the audio and external linksEric Topol (00:07):Well, hello, this is Eric Topol from Ground Truths, and it's really a delight for me to welcome Tom Cech who just wrote a book, the Catalyst, and who is a Nobel laureate for his work in RNA. And is at the University of Colorado Boulder as an extraordinary chemist and welcome Tom.Tom Cech (00:32):Eric, I'm really pleased to be here.The RNA GuyEric Topol (00:35):Well, I just thoroughly enjoyed your book, and I wanted to start out, if I could, with a quote, which gets us right off the story here, and let me just get to it here. You say, “the DNA guy would need to become an RNA guy. Though I didn’t realize it at the time, jumping ship would turn out to be the most momentous decision in my life.” Can you elaborate a bit on that?Tom Cech (01:09):As a graduate student at Berkeley, I was studying DNA and chromosomes. I thought that DNA was king and really somewhat belittled the people in the lab next door who were working on RNA, I thought it was real sort of second fiddle material. Of course, when RNA is acting just as a message, which is an important function, a critical function in all life on earth, but still, it's a function that's subservient to DNA. It's just copying the message that's already written in the playbook of DNA. But little did I know that the wonders of RNA were going to excite me and really the whole world in unimaginable ways.Eric Topol (02:00):Well, they sure have, and you've lit up the world well before you had your Nobel Prize in 1989 was Sid Altman with ribozyme. And I think one of the things that struck me, which are so compelling in the book as I think people might know, it's divided in two sections. The first is much more on the biology, and the second is much more on the applications and how it's changing the world. We'll get into it particularly in medicine, but the interesting differentiation from DNA, which is the one trick pony, as you said, all it does is store stuff. And then the incredible versatility of RNA as you discovered as a catalyst, that challenging dogma, that proteins are supposed to be the only enzymes. And here you found RNA was one, but also so much more with respect to genome editing and what we're going to get into here. So I thought what we might get into is the fact that you kind of went into the scum of the pond with this organism, which by the way, you make a great case for the importance of basic science towards the end of the book. But can you tell us about how you, and then of course, many others got into the Tetrahymena thermophila, which I don't know that much about that organism.Tom Cech (03:34):Yeah, it's related to Tetrahymena is related to paramecium, which is probably more commonly known because it's an even larger single celled animal. And therefore, in an inexpensive grade school microscope, kids can look through and see these ciliated protozoa swimming around on a glass slide. But I first learned about them when I was a postdoc at MIT and I would drive down to Joe Gall's lab at Yale University where Liz Blackburn was a postdoc at the time, and they were all studying Tetrahymena. It has the remarkable feature that it has 10,000 identical copies of a particular gene and for a higher organism, one that has its DNA in the nucleus and does its protein synthesis in the cytoplasm. Typically, each gene's present in two copies, one from mom, one from dad. And if you're a biochemist, which I am having lots of stuff is a real advantage. So 10,000 copies of a particular gene pumping out RNA copies all the time was a huge experimental advantage. And that's what I started working on when I started my own lab at Boulder.Eric Topol (04:59):Well, and that's where, I guess the title of the book, the Catalyst ultimately, that grew into your discovery, right?Tom Cech (05:08):Well, at one level, yes, but I also think that the catalyst in a more general conversational sense means just facilitating life in this case. So RNA does much more than just serve as a biocatalyst or a message, and we'll get into that with genome editing and with telomerase as well.The Big Bang and 11 Nobel Prizes on RNA since 2000Eric Topol (05:32):Yes, and I should note that as you did early in the book, that there's been an 11 Nobel prize awardees since 2000 for RNA work. And in fact, we just had Venki who I know you know very well as our last podcast. And prior to that, Kati Karikó, Jennifer Doudna who worked in your lab, and the long list of people working RNA in the younger crowd like David Liu and Fyodor Urnov and just so many others, we need to have an RNA series because it's just exploding. And that one makes me take you back for a moment to 2007. And when I was reading the book, it came back to me about the Economist cover. You may recall almost exactly 17 years ago. It was called the Biology’s Big Bang – Unravelling the secrets of RNA. And in that, there was a notable quote from that article. Let me just get to that. And it says, “it is probably no exaggeration to say that biology is now undergoing its neutron moment.”(06:52):This is 17 years ago. “For more than half a century the fundamental story of living things has been a tale of the interplay between genes, in the form of DNA, and proteins, which is genes encode and which do the donkey work of keeping living organisms living. The past couple of years, 17 years ago, however, has seen the rise and rise of a third type of molecule, called RNA.” Okay, so that was 2007. It's pretty extraordinary. And now of course we're talking about the century of biology. So can you kind of put these last 17 years in perspective and where we're headed?Tom Cech (07:34):Well, Eric, of course, this didn't all happen in one moment. It wasn't just one big bang. And the scientific community has been really entranced with the wonders of RNA since the 1960s when everyone was trying to figure out how messenger RNA stored the genetic code. But the general public has been really kept in the dark about this, I think. And as scientists, were partially to blame for not reaching out and sharing what we have found with them in a way that's more understandable. The DNA, the general public's very comfortable with, it's the stuff of our heredity. We know about genetic diseases, about tracing our ancestry, about solving crimes with DNA evidence. We even say things like it's in my DNA to mean that it's really fundamental to us. But I think that RNA has been sort of kept in the closet, and now with the mRNA vaccines against Covid-19, at least everyone's heard of RNA. And I think that that sort of allowed me to put my foot in the door and say, hey, if you were curious about the mRNA vaccines, I have some more stories for you that you might be really interested in.RNA vs RNAEric Topol (09:02):Yeah, well, we'll get to that. Maybe we should get to that now because it is so striking the RNA versus RNA chapter in your book, and basically the story of how this RNA virus SARS-CoV-2 led to a pandemic and it was fought largely through the first at scale mRNA nanoparticle vaccine package. Now, that takes us back to some seminal work of being able to find, giving an mRNA to a person without inciting massive amount of inflammation and the substitution of pseudouridine or uridine in order to do that. Does that really get rid of all the inflammation? Because obviously, as you know, there's been some negativism about mRNA vaccines for that and also for the potential of not having as much immune cell long term activation. Maybe you could speak to that.Tom Cech (10:03):Sure. So the discovery by Kati Karikó and Drew Weissman of the pseudouridine substitution certainly went a long way towards damping down the immune response, the inflammatory response that one naturally gets with an RNA injection. And the reason for that is that our bodies are tuned to be on the lookout for foreign RNA because so many viruses don't even mess with DNA at all. They just have a genome made of RNA. And so, RNA replicating itself is a danger sign. It means that our immune system should be on the lookout for this. And so, in the case of the vaccination, it's really very useful to dampen this down. A lot of people thought that this might make the mRNA vaccines strange or foreign or sort of a drug rather than a natural substance. But in fact, modified nucleotides, nucleotides being the building blocks of RNA, so these modified building blocks such as pseudoU, are in fact found in natural RNAs more in some than in others. And there are about 200 modified versions of the RNA building blocks found in cells. So it's really not an unusual modification or something that's all that foreign, but it was very useful for the vaccines. Now your other question Eric had to do with the, what was your other question, Eric?Eric Topol (11:51):No, when you use mRNA, which is such an extraordinary way to get the spike protein in a controlled way, exposed without the virus to people, and it saved millions of lives throughout the pandemic. But the other question is compared to other vaccine constructs, there's a question of does it give us long term protective immunity, particularly with T cells, both CD8 cytotoxic, maybe also CD4, as I know immunology is not your main area of interest, but that's been a rub that's been put out there, that it isn't just a weaning of immunity from the virus, but also perhaps that the vaccines themselves are not as good for that purpose. Any thoughts on that?Tom Cech (12:43):Well, so my main thought on that is that this is a property of the virus more than of the vaccine. And respiratory viruses are notoriously hard to get long-term immunity. I mean, look at the flu virus. We have to have annual flu shots. If this were like measles, which is a very different kind of virus, one flu shot would protect you against at least that strain of flu for the rest of your life. So I think the bad rap here is not the vaccine's fault nearly as much as it's the nature of respiratory viruses.RNA And Aging Eric Topol (13:27):No, that's extremely helpful. Now, let me switch to an area that's really fascinating, and you've worked quite a bit on the telomerase story because this is, as you know, being pursued quite a bit, has thought, not just because telomeres might indicate something about biologic aging, but maybe they could help us get to an anti-aging remedy or whatever you want to call it. I'm not sure if you call it a treatment, but tell us about this important enzyme, the role of the RNA building telomeres. And maybe you could also connect that with what a lot of people might not be familiar with, at least from years ago when they learned about it, the Hayflick limit.Tom Cech (14:22):Yes. Well, Liz Blackburn and Carol Greider got the Nobel Prize for the discovery of telomerase along with Jack Szostak who did important initial work on that system. And what it does is, is it uses an RNA as a template to extend the ends of human chromosomes, and this allows the cell to keep dividing without end. It gives the cell immortality. Now, when I say immortality, people get very excited, but I'm talking about immortality at the cellular level, not for the whole organism. And in the absence of a mechanism to build out the ends of our chromosomes, the telomeres being the end of the chromosome are incompletely replicated with each cell division. And so, they shrink over time, and when they get critically short, they signal the cell to stop dividing. This is what is called the Hayflick limit, first discovered by Leonard Hayflick in Philadelphia.(15:43):And he, through his careful observations on cells, growing human cells growing in Petri dishes, saw that they could divide about 50 times and then they wouldn't die. They would just enter a state called senescence. They would change shape, they would change their metabolism, but they would importantly quit dividing. And so, we now see this as a useful feature of human biology that this protects us from getting cancer because one of the hallmarks of cancer is immortality of the tumor cells. And so, if you're wishing for your telomeres to be long and your cells to keep dividing, you have to a little bit be careful what you wish for because this is one foot in the door for cancer formation.Eric Topol (16:45):Yeah, I mean, the point is that it seems like the body and the cell is smart to put these cells into the senescent state so they can't divide anymore. And one of the points you made in the book that I think is worth noting is that 90% of cancers have the telomerase, how do you say it?Tom Cech (17:07):Telomerase.Eric Topol (17:08):Yeah, reactivate.Tom Cech (17:09):Right.Eric Topol (17:10):That's not a good sign.Tom Cech (17:12):Right. And there are efforts to try to target telomerase enzyme for therapeutic purposes, although again, it's tricky because we do have stem cells in our bodies, which are the exception to the Hayflick limit rule. They do still have telomerase, they still have to keep dividing, maybe not as rapidly as a cancer cell, but they still keep dividing. And this is critical for the replenishment of certain worn out tissues in our such as skin cells, such as many of our blood cells, which may live only 30 days before they poop out. That's a scientific term for needing to be replenished, right?Eric Topol (18:07):Yeah. Well, that gets me to the everybody's, now I got the buzz about anti-aging, and whether it's senolytics to get rid of these senescent cells or whether it's to rejuvenate the stem cells that are exhausted or work on telomeres, all of these seem to connect with a potential or higher risk of cancer. I wonder what your thoughts are as we go forward using these various biologic constructs to be able to influence the whole organism, the whole human body aging process.Tom Cech (18:47):Yes. My view, and others may disagree is that aging is not an affliction. It's not a disease. It's not something that we should try to cure, but what we should work on is having a healthy life into our senior years. And perhaps you and I are two examples of people who are at that stage of our life. And what we would really like is to achieve, is to be able to be active and useful to society and to our families for a long period of time. So using the information about telomerase, for example, to help our stem cells stay healthy until we are, until we're ready to cash it in. And for that matter on the other side of the coin, to try to inhibit the telomerase in cancer because cancer, as we all know, is a disease of aging, right? There are young people who get cancer, but if you look at the statistics, it's really heavily weighted towards people who've been around a long time because mutations accumulate and other damage to cells that would normally protect against cancer accumulates. And so, we have to target both the degradation of our stem cells, but also the occurrence of cancer, particularly in the more senior population. And knowing more about RNA is really helpful in that regard.RNA DrugsEric Topol (20:29):Yeah. Well, one of the things that comes across throughout the book is versatility of RNA. In fact, you only I think, mentioned somewhere around 12 or 14 of these different RNAs that have a million different shapes, and there's so many other names of different types of RNAs. It's really quite extraordinary. But one of the big classes of RNAs has really hit it. In fact, this week there are two new interfering RNAs that are having extraordinary effects reported in the New England Journal on all the lipids, abnormal triglycerides and LDL cholesterol, APOC3. And can you talk to us about this interfering the small interfering RNAs and how they become, you've mentioned in the book over 400 RNAs are in the clinic now.Tom Cech (21:21):Yeah, so the 400 of course is beyond just the siRNAs, but these, again, a wonderful story about how fundamental science done just to understand how nature works without any particular expectation of a medical spinoff, often can have the most phenomenal and transformative effects on medicine. And this is one of those examples. It came from a roundworm, which is about the size of an eyelash, which a scientist named Sydney Brenner in England had suggested would be a great experimental organism because the entire animal has only about a thousand cells, and it's transparent so we can look at, see where the cells are, we can watch the worm develop. And what Andy Fire and Craig Mello found in this experimental worm was that double-stranded RNA, you think about DNA is being double-stranded and RNA as being single stranded. But in this case, it was an unusual case where the RNA was forming a double helix, and these little pieces of double helical RNA could turn off the expression of genes in the worm.(22:54):And that seemed remarkable and powerful. But as often happens in biology, at least for those of us who believe in evolution, what goes for the worm goes for the human as well. So a number of scientists quickly found that the same process was going on in the human body as a natural way of regulating the expression of our genes, which means how much of a particular gene product is actually going to be made in a particular cell. But not only was it a natural process, but you could introduce chemically synthesized double helical RNAs. There are only 23 base pairs, 23 units of RNA long, so they're pretty easy to chemically synthesize. And that once these are introduced into a human, the machinery that's already there grabs hold of them and can be used to turn off the expression of a disease causing RNA or the gene makes a messenger RNA, and then this double-stranded RNA can suppress its action. So this has become the main company that is known for doing this is Alnylam in Boston, Cambridge. And they have made quite a few successful products based on this technology.Eric Topol (24:33):Oh, absolutely. Not just for amyloidosis, but as I mentioned these, they even have a drug that's being tested now, as you know that you could take once or twice a year to manage your blood pressure. Wouldn't that be something instead of a pill every day? And then of course, all these others that are not just from Alnylam, but other companies I wasn't even familiar with for managing lipids, which is taking us well beyond statins and these, so-called PCSK9 monoclonal antibodies, so it's really blossoming. Now, the other group of RNA drugs are antisense drugs, and it seemed like they took forever to warm up, and then finally they hit. And can you distinguish the antisense versus the siRNA therapeutics?Tom Cech (25:21):Yes, in a real general sense, there's some similarity as well as some differences, but the antisense, what are called oligonucleotides, whoa, that's a big word, but oligo just means a few, right? And nucleotides is just the building blocks of nucleic acid. So you have a string of a few of these. And again, it's the power of RNA that it is so good at specifically base pairing only with matching sequences. So if you want to match with a G in a target messenger RNA, you put a C in the antisense because G pairs with C, if you want to put an A, if want to match with an A, you put a U in the antisense because A and U form a base pair U is the RNA equivalent of T and DNA, but they have the same coding capacity. So any school kid can write out on a notepad or on their laptop what the sequence would have to be of an antisense RNA to specifically pair with a particular mRNA.(26:43):And this has been, there's a company in your neck of the woods in the San Diego area. It started out with the name Isis that turned out to be the wrong Egyptian God to name your company after, so they're now known as Ionis. Hopefully that name will be around for a while. But they've been very successful in modifying these antisense RNAs or nucleic acids so that they are stable in the body long enough so that they can pair with and thereby inhibit the expression of particular target RNAs. So it has both similarities and differences from the siRNAs, but the common denominator is RNA is great stuff.RNA and Genome EditingEric Topol (27:39):Well, you have taken that to in catalyst, the catalyst, you've proven that without a doubt and you and so many other extraordinary scientists over the years, cumulatively. Now, another way to interfere with genes is editing. And of course, you have a whole chapter devoted to not just well CRISPR, but the whole genome editing field. And by the way, I should note that I forgot because I had read the Codebreaker and we recently spoke Jennifer Doudna and I, that she was in your lab as a postdoc and you made some wonderful comments about her. I don't know if you want to reflect about having Jennifer, did you know that she was going to do some great things in her career?Tom Cech (28:24):Oh, there was no question about it, Eric. She had been a star graduate student at Harvard, had published a series of breathtaking papers in magazines such as Science and Nature already as a graduate student. She won a Markey fellowship to come to Colorado. She chose a very ambitious project trying to determine the molecular structures of folded RNA molecules. We only had one example at the time, and that was the transfer RNA, which is involved in protein synthesis. And here she was trying these catalytic RNAs, which we had discovered, which were much larger than tRNA and was making great progress, which she finished off as an assistant professor at Yale. So what the general public may not know was that in scientific, in the scientific realm, she was already highly appreciated and much awarded before she even heard anything about CRISPR.Eric Topol (29:38):Right. No, it was a great line you have describing her, “she had an uncanny talent for designing just the right experiment to test any hypothesis, and she possessed more energy and drive than any scientist I'd ever met.” That's pretty powerful. Now getting into CRISPR, the one thing, it's amazing in just a decade to see basically the discovery of this natural system to then be approved by FDA for sickle cell disease and beta thalassemia. However, the way it exists today, it's very primitive. It's not actually fixing the gene that's responsible, it's doing a workaround plan. It's got double strand breaks in the DNA. And obviously there's better ways of editing, which are going to obviously involve RNA epigenetic editing, if you will as well. What is your sense about the future of genome editing?Tom Cech (30:36):Yeah, absolutely, Eric. It is primitive right now. These initial therapies are way too expensive as well to make them broadly applicable to the entire, even in a relatively wealthy country like the United States, we need to drive the cost down. We need to get them to work, we need to get the process of introducing them into the CRISPR machinery into the human body to be less tedious and less time consuming. But you've got to start somewhere. And considering that the Charpentier and Doudna Nobel Prize winning discovery was in 2012, which is only a dozen years ago, this is remarkable progress. More typically, it takes 30 years from a basic science discovery to get a medical product with about a 1% chance of it ever happening. And so, this is clearly a robust RNA driven machine. And so, I think the future is bright. We can talk about that some more, but I don't want to leave RNA out of this conversation, Eric. So what's cool about CRISPR is its incredible specificity. Think of the human genome as a million pages of text file on your computer, a million page PDF, and now CRISPR can find one sentence out of that million pages that matches, and that's because it's using RNA, again, the power of RNA to form AU and GC base pairs to locate just one site in our whole DNA, sit down there and direct this Cas9 enzyme to cut the DNA at that site and start the repair process that actually does the gene editing.Eric Topol (32:41):Yeah, it's pretty remarkable. And the fact that it can be so precise and it's going to get even more precise over time in terms of the repair efforts that are needed to get it back to an ideal state. Now, the other thing I wanted to get into with you a bit is on the ribosome, because that applies to antibiotics and as you call it, the mothership. And I love this metaphor that you had about the ribosome, and in the book, “the ribosome is your turntable, the mRNA is the vinyl LP record, and the protein is the music you hear when you lower the needle.” Tell us more about the ribosome and the role of antibiotics.Tom Cech (33:35):So do you think today's young people will understand that metaphor?Eric Topol (33:40):Oh, they probably will. They're making a comeback. These records are making a comeback.Tom Cech (33:44):Okay. Yes, so this is a good analogy in that the ribosome is so versatile it's able to play any music that you feed at the right messenger RNA to make the music being the protein. So you can have in the human body, we have tens of thousands of different messenger RNAs. Each one threads through the same ribosome and spills out the production of whatever protein matches that mRNA. And so that's pretty remarkable. And what Harry Noller at UC Santa Cruz and later the crystallographers Venki Ramakrishnan, Tom Steitz, Ada Yonath proved really through their studies was that this is an RNA machine. It was hard to figure that out because the ribosome has three RNAs and it has dozens of proteins as well. So for a long time people thought it must be one of those proteins that was the heart and soul of the record player, so to speak.RNA and Antibiotics(34:57):And it turned out that it was the RNA. And so, when therefore these scientists, including Venki who you just talked to, looked at where these antibiotics docked on the ribosome, they found that they were blocking the key functional parts of the RNA. So it was really, the antibiotics knew what they were doing long before we knew what they were doing. They were talking to and obstructing the action of the ribosomal RNA. Why is this a good thing for us? Because bacterial ribosomes are just enough different from human ribosomes that there are drugs that will dock to the bacterial ribosomal RNA, throw a monkey wrench into the machine, prevent it from working, but the human ribosomes go on pretty much unfazed.Eric Topol (36:00):Yeah, no, the backbone of our antibiotics relies on this. So I think people need to understand about the two subunits, the large and the small and this mothership, and you illuminate that so really well in the book. That also brings me to phage bacteria phage, and we haven't seen that really enter the clinic in a significant way, but there seems to be a great opportunity. What's your view about that?Tom Cech (36:30):This is an idea that goes way back because since bacteria have their own viruses which do not infect human cells, why not repurpose those into little therapeutic entities that could kill, for example, what would we want to kill? Well, maybe tuberculosis has been very resistant to drugs, right? There are drug resistant strains of TB, yes, of TB, tuberculosis, and especially in immunocompromised individuals, this bug runs rampant. And so, I don't know the status of that. It's been challenging, and this is the way that biomedicine works, is that for every 10 good ideas, and I would say phage therapy for bacterial disease is a good idea. For every 10 such ideas, one of them ends up being practical. And the other nine, maybe somebody else will come along and find a way to make it work, but it hasn't been a big breakthrough yet.RNA, Aptamers and ProteinsEric Topol (37:54):Yeah, no, it's really interesting. And we'll see. It may still be in store. What about aptamers? Tell us a little bit more about those, because they have been getting used a lot in sorting out the important plasma proteins as therapies. What are aptamers and what do you see as the future in that regard?Tom Cech (38:17):Right. Well, in fact, aptamers are a big deal in Boulder because Larry Gold in town was one of the discoverers has a company making aptamers to recognize proteins. Jack Szostak now at University of Chicago has played a big role. And also at your own institution, Jerry Joyce, your president is a big aptamer guy. And you can evolution, normally we think about it as happening out in the environment, but it turns out you can also make it work in the laboratory. You can make it work much faster in the laboratory because you can set up test tube experiments where molecules are being challenged to perform a particular task, like for example, binding to a protein to inactivate it. And if you make a large community of RNA molecules randomly, 99.999% of them aren't going to know how to do this. What are the odds? Very low.(39:30):But just by luck, there will be an occasional molecule of RNA that folds up into a shape that actually fits into the proteins active sighting throws a monkey wrench into the works. Okay, so now that's one in a billion. How are you going to find that guy? Well, this is where the polymerase chain reaction, the same one we use for the COVID-19 tests for infection comes into play. Because if you can now isolate this needle in a haystack and use PCR to amplify it and make a whole handful of it, now you've got a whole handful of molecules which are much better at binding this protein than the starting molecule. And now you can go through this cycle several times to enrich for these, maybe mutagen it a little bit more to give it a little more diversity. We all know diversity is good, so you put a little more diversity into the population and now you find some guy that's really good at recognizing some disease causing protein. So this is the, so-called aptamer story, and they have been used therapeutically with some success, but diagnostically certainly they are extremely useful. And it's another area where we've had success and the future could hold even more success.Eric Topol (41:06):I think what you're bringing up is so important because the ability to screen that tens of thousands of plasma proteins in a person and coming up with as Tony Wyss-Coray did with the organ clocks, and this is using the SomaLogic technology, and so much is going on now to get us not just the polygenic risk scores, but also these proteomic scores to compliment that at our orthogonal, if you will, to understand risk of people for diseases so we can prevent them, which is fulfilling a dream we've never actually achieved so far.Tom Cech (41:44):Eric, just for full disclosure, I'm on the scientific advisory board of SomaLogic in Boulder. I should disclose that.Eric Topol (41:50):Well, that was smart. They needed to have you, so thank you for mentioning that. Now, before I wrap up, well, another area that is a favorite of mine is citizen science. And you mentioned in the book a project because the million shapes of RNA and how it can fold with all hairpin terms turns and double stranded and whatever you name it, that there was this project eteRNA that was using citizen scientists to characterize and understand folding of RNA. Can you tell us about that?RNA Folding and Citizen ScienceTom Cech (42:27):So my friend Rhiju Das, who's a professor at Stanford University, sort of adopted what had been done with protein folding by one of his former mentors, David Baker in Seattle, and had repurposed this for RNA folding. So the idea is to come up with a goal, a target for the community. Can you design an RNA that will fold up to look like a four pointed cross or a five pointed star? And it turned out that, so they made it into a contest and they had tens of thousands of people playing these games and coming up with some remarkable solutions. But then they got a little bit more practical, said, okay, that was fun, but can we have the community design something like a mRNA for the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein to make maybe a more stable vaccine? And quite remarkably, the community of many of whom are just gamers who really don't know much about what RNA does, were able to find some solutions. They weren't enormous breakthroughs, but they got a several fold, several hundred percent increase in stability of the RNA by making it fold more tightly. So I just find it to be a fascinating approach to science. Somebody of my generation would never think of this, but I think for today's generation, it's great when citizens can become involved in research at that level.Eric Topol (44:19):Oh, I think it's extraordinary. And of course, there are other projects folded and others that have exemplified this ability for people with no background in science to contribute in a meaningful way, and they really enjoy, it's like solving a puzzle. The last point is kind of the beginning, the origin of life, and you make a pretty strong case, Tom, that it was RNA. You don't say it definitively, but maybe you can say it here.RNA and the Origin of LifeTom Cech (44:50):Well, Eric, the origin of life happening almost 4 billion years ago on our primitive planet is sort of a historical question. I mean, if you really want to know what happened then, well, we don't have any video surveillance of those moments. So scientists hate to ever say never, but it's hard to sort of believe how we would ever know for sure. So what Leslie Orgel at the Salk Institute next to you taught me when I was a starting assistant professor is even though we'll never know for sure, if we can recapitulate in the laboratory plausible events that could have happened, and if they make sense chemically and biologically, then that's pretty satisfying, even if we can never be absolutely sure. That's what a number of scientists have done in this field is to show that RNA is sort of a, that all the chemistry sort of points to RNA as being something that could have been made under prebiotic conditions and could have folded up into a way that could solve the greatest of all chicken and egg problems, which came first, the informational molecule to pass down to the next generation or the active molecule that could copy that information.(46:32):So now that we know that RNA has both of those abilities, maybe at the beginning there was just this RNA world RNA copying itself, and then proteins came along later, and then DNA probably much more recently as a useful but a little bit boring of genetic information, right?Eric Topol (46:59):Yeah. Well, that goes back to that cover of the Economist 17 years ago, the Big Bang, and you got me convinced that this is a pretty strong story and candidate. Now what a fun chance to discuss all this with you in an extraordinary book, Tom. Did I miss anything that you want to bring up?Tom Cech (47:21):Eric, I just wanted to say that I not only appreciate our conversation, but I also appreciate all you are doing to bring science to the non-scientist public. I think people like me who have taught a lot of freshmen in chemistry, general chemistry, sort of think that that’s the level that we need to aim at. But I think that those kids have had science in high school year after year. We need to aim at the parents of those college freshmen who are intelligent, who are intellectually curious, but have not had science courses in a long time. And so, I'm really joining with you in trying to avoid jargon as much as possible. Use simple language, use analogies and metaphors, and try to share the excitement of what we're doing in the laboratory with the populace.Eric Topol (48:25):Well, you sure did that it was palpable. And I thought about it when I read the book about how lucky it would be to be a freshman at the University of Boulder and be having you as the professor. My goodness. Well, thank you so much. This has been so much fun, Tom, and I hope everybody's going to get out there and read the Catalyst to get all the things that we didn't even get a chance to dive into. But this has been great and look forward to future interactions with you.Tom Cech (48:53):Take care, Eric.*********************Thanks for listening or reading this edition of Ground Truths.Please share this podcast with your friends and network. That tells me you found it informative and makes the effort in doing these worthwhile.All Ground Truths newsletters and podcast are free. Voluntary paid subscriptions all go to support Scripps Research. Many thanks for that—they greatly helped fund our summer internship programs for 2023 and 2024.Thanks to my producer Jessica Nguyen and Sinjun Balabanoff for audio and video support at Scripps Research.Note: you can select preferences to receive emails about newsletters, podcasts, or all I don’t want to bother you with an email for content that you’re not interested in. Get full access to Ground Truths at erictopol.substack.com/subscribe

Nobel laureate Venki Ramakrishnan discusses the science of aging, challenges in extending lifespan, senescent cells, and aging mechanisms. The conversation explores the interplay of aging, cancer, stem cell therapy, and strategies to address aging-related issues. It emphasizes public awareness about aging biology and the empowering science of understanding aging without giving direct advice.

After finishing her training in neurology at Mayo Clinic, Dr. Svetlana Blitshteyn started a Dysautonomia Clinic in 2009. Little did she know what was in store many years later when Covid hit!Ground Truths podcasts are on Apple and Spotify. The video interviews are on YouTubeTranscript with audio and external linksEric Topol (00:07):Well, hello, it's Eric Topol from Ground Truths, and I have with me a really great authority on dysautonomia and POTS. We will get into what that is for those who aren't following this closely. And it's Svetlana Blitshteyn who is a faculty member at University of Buffalo and a neurologist who long before there was such a thing as Covid was already onto one of the most important pathways of the body, the autonomic nervous system and how it can go off track. So welcome, Svetlana.Svetlana Blitshteyn (00:40):Thank you so much, Eric for having me. And I want to say it's a great honor for me to be here and just to be on the list with your other guests. It's remarkable and I'm very grateful and congratulations on being on the TIME100 Health list for influential people in 2024. And I am grateful for everything that you've done. As I mentioned earlier, I'm a big fan of your work before the pandemic and of course with Covid I followed your podcast and posts because you became the best science communicator and I'm very happy to see you being a strong advocate and thank you for everything you've done.Eric Topol (01:27):Well, that's so kind to you. And I think talking about getting things going before the pandemic, back in 2011, you published a book with Jodi Epstein Rhum called POTS - Together We Stand: Riding the Waves of Dysautonomia. And you probably didn't have an idea that there would be an epidemic of that more than a decade later, I guess, right?Svetlana Blitshteyn (01:54):Yeah, absolutely. Of course, SARS-CoV-2 is a new virus and we can technically say that Long Covid and post Covid complications could be viewed as a new entity. But practically speaking, we know that post-infectious syndromes have been happening for many decades. And so, the most common trigger for POTS happened to be infection, whether it was influenza or mononucleosis or Lyme or enterovirus. We knew this was happening. So I think it didn't take long for me and my colleagues to realize that we're going to be seeing a lot of patients with autonomic dysfunction after Covid.On the Front LineEric Topol (02:40):Well, one of the things that's important for having you on is you're in the front lines taking care of lots of patients with Long Covid and this postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS). And I wonder if you could tell us what it's care for these patients because so many of them are incapacitated. As a cardiologist, I see of course some because of the cardiovascular aspects, but you are dealing with this on a day-to-day basis.Svetlana Blitshteyn (03:14):Yeah, absolutely. As early as April 2020 when everything was closed, I got a call from a young doctor in New York City saying that he had Covid and he couldn't recover, he couldn't return to the hospital. And his colleagues and cardiology attendants also had the same symptoms and the symptoms were palpitations, orthostatic intolerance, tachycardia, fatigue. Now, how he knew to contact me is that his sister was my patient with POTS before Covid pandemic. So he kind of figured this looked like my sister, let me check this out. And it didn't take long for me to have a lot of patience from the early wave. And then fairly soon, I think within months I was thinking, we have to write this up because this is important. And to some of us it was not news, but I was sure that to many physicians and public health officials, this would be something new.Svetlana Blitshteyn (04:18):So because I'm a busy clinician and don't have a lot of time for publications, I had to recruit a graduate student from McMasters and together we had this paper out, which was the first and largest case series on post Covid POTS and other autonomic disorders. And interestingly, even though it came out I think in 2021, by the time it was published, it became the most citable paper for me. And so I think from then on organizations and societies became interested in the work that I do because prior to that, I must say in the kind of a niche specialty was I don't think it was very popular or of interest to me.How Did You Get Interested in Dysautonomia?Eric Topol (05:06):Yeah, so that's why I wanted to just take a step back with you Svetlana, because you had the foresight to be the founder and director of the Dysautonomia Clinic when a lot of people weren't in touch with this as an important entity. What prompted you as a neurologist to really zoom in on dysautonomia when you started this clinic?Svetlana Blitshteyn (05:28):Sure. So the reasons are how I ended up in this field is kind of a convoluted road and the reasons are many, but one, I will say that I trained at Mayo Clinic where we received very good training on autonomic disorders and EMG and coming back to returning back to Buffalo, I began working at the large multiple sclerosis clinic because Western New York has a high incidence MS. And so, what they quickly realized in that clinic is that there was a subset of women who did not qualify for the diagnostic criteria of multiple sclerosis, yet they had a lot of the same symptoms and they were certainly very disabled. Now I recognize that these women had autonomic disorders of all sorts and small fiber neuropathy, and I think this population sort of grew and eventually I realized there is no one not only in Buffalo but the entire Western New York who is doing this work.Svetlana Blitshteyn (06:34):So I kind of fell into that. But another reason is actually more personal that I haven’t talked about. So years ago I was traveling to Toronto, Canada for a neurology meeting to present my big study on meningioma and hormone replacement therapy using Mayo Clinic database. And so, in that year, the study received top 10 noteworthy studies of the year award from the Society of Neuro-Oncology, and it was profiled in Reuters Health. Now, on the way back from the conference, I had the flu, and when they returned I could no longer walk the same hallways of the hospital where I walked previously. And no matter how hard I try to push my body, we all do this in medicine, we push through, I just couldn’t do it. No amount of wishing or positive thinking. And so, I think that’s how I came to know personally the post-infectious syndromes. And I think it almost became a duality of experiencing this and also practicing it.Eric Topol (07:52):No, that’s really striking and it wasn’t so common to hear about this post flu, but certainly it changed in 2020. So how does a person with POTS typically present to you?Clinical PresentationSvetlana Blitshteyn (08:08):So these are very important questions because what I want to stress is though POTS is one of the most common autonomic disorders. Even if you don’t have POTS by the diagnostic criteria, you may still have autonomic dysfunction and significant autonomic symptoms. How do they present? Well, they present like most Long Covid patients, the most common symptoms are orthostatic intolerance, fatigue, exercise intolerance, post exertional malaise, dizziness, tachycardia, brain fog. And these are common themes across the board in Long Covid patients, but also in pre-Covid post-acute infection syndrome patients. And you have to recognize because I think what I tell my colleagues is that oftentimes patients are not going to present to you saying, I have orthostatic intolerance. Many times they will say, I’m very tired. I can no longer go to the gym or when I go to the store, I have to be out of there in 15 minutes because the orthostatic intolerance symptoms come up.Svetlana Blitshteyn (09:22):So sometimes the patients themselves don’t recognize that and it’s up to us physicians to ask the right questions to get the information down. History is very important, knowing the pattern. And then of course, as I always say in all of my papers and lectures, you have to do a 10-minute stand test by measuring supine and standing blood pressure and heart rate on every Long Covid patients. And that’s how you spot those that have excessive postural tachycardia or their blood pressure dropping or so forth. So we have the tools. We don’t need fancy autonomic labs. We don’t even need a tilt table test. The diagnostic criteria for POTS is that you need to have either a 10-minute stand test or a tilt table test to get the diagnosis for POTS, orthostatic hypotension or even neurocardiogenic syncope. Now I think it's important to stress that even if a patient doesn't qualify, and let's say many patients with Long Covid will not elevate their heart rate by at least 30 beats per minute, it could be 20, it could be 25. These criteria are of course essential when we do research studies. But I think practically speaking, in patient care where everything is gray and nothing is black or white, especially in autonomic disorders, you really have to make a diagnosis saying, this sounds like autonomic dysfunction. Let me treat the patient for this problem.Eric Topol (11:07):Well, you brought up something that’s really important because doctors don’t have much time and they’re inpatient. They don’t wait 10 minutes to do a test to check your blood pressure. They send the patients for a tilt table, which nobody likes to have that test done, and it’s unnecessary added appointment and expense and whatnot. So that’s a good tip right there that you can get the same information just by checking the blood pressure and heart rate on standing for an extended period of time, which 10 minutes is a long time in the clinic of course. Now, what is the mechanism, what do you think is going on with the SARS-CoV-2 virus and its predilection to affect the autonomic nervous system? As you know, so many studies have questioned whether you even actually infect neurons or alternatively, which is more likely this an inflammation of the neural tissue. But what do you think is going on here?UnderpinningsSvetlana Blitshteyn (12:10):Right, so I think it’s important to say we don’t have exact pathophysiology of what exactly is going on. I think we can only extrapolate that what’s going on in Long Covid is possibly what’s going on in any post infectious onset dysautonomia. And so there are many hypothesis and there are many suggestions, and we share this disorder with cardiologist and immunologist and rheumatologist. The way I view this is what I described in my paper from a few years ago is that this is likely a central nervous system disorder with multisystemic involvement and it involves the cardiovascular system, immunologic, metabolic, possibly prothrombotic. The pathophysiology of all POTS closely parallels to pathophysiology of Long Covid. Now we don’t know if it’s the same thing and certainly I see that there may be more complications in Long Covid patients in the realm of cardiovascular manifestations in the realm of blood clots and things like that.Svetlana Blitshteyn (13:21):So we can’t say it’s the same, but it very closely resembles and I think at the core is going to be inflammation, autoimmunity and immunologic dysfunction. Now there are also other things that are very important and that would be mitochondrial dysfunction, that would be hypercoagulable state, it would be endothelial dysfunction. And I think the silver lining of Long Covid and having so many people invested in research and so many funds is that by uncovering what Long Covid is, we’re now going to be uncovering what POTS and other autonomic disorders are. And I think we also need to mention a couple of other things. One is small fiber neuropathy, small fiber neuropathy and POTS are very much comorbid conditions. And similarly, small fiber neuropathy frequently occurs in patients with Long Covid, so that’s a substrate with the damaged small nerve fibers that they're everywhere in our bodies and also innervate the organs as well.Svetlana Blitshteyn (14:34):The second big thing is that needs to be mentioned is hyperactive mast cells. So mast cells, small nerve fibers and capillaries are very much located in proximity. And what I have usually is a slide from an old paper in oral biology that gives you a specimen where you see a capillary vessel, a stain small nerve fiber, and in between them there is a mass cell with tryptase in it stained in black. And so there is a close communication between small nerve fibers between endothelial wall and between mast cells, and that’s what we commonly see as a triad. We see this as a triad in Long Covid patients. We see that as a triad in patients with joint hypermobility syndrome and hypermobile EDS, and you also see this in many of the autoimmune disorders where people develop new allergies and new sensitivities concurrent or preceding the onset of autoimmune disease.Small Fiber NeuropathyEric Topol (15:49):Yeah, no, it’s fascinating. And I know you’ve worked with this in Ehlers-Danlos syndrome (EDS) as you mentioned, the hypermobility, but just to go back on this, when you want to entertain the involvement of small fiber neuropathy, is that diagnosable? I mean it’s obvious that you can get the tachycardia, the change in position blood pressure, but do you have to do other tests to say there is indeed a small fiber neuropathy or is that a clinical diagnosis?Svetlana Blitshteyn (16:20):Absolutely. We have the testing and the testing is skin biopsy. That is simply a punch biopsy that you can do in your clinic and it takes about 15 minutes. You have the free kit that the company of, there are many companies, I don’t want to name specific ones, but there are several companies that do this kind of work. You send the biopsy back to them, they look under the microscope, they stain it. You can also stain it with amyloid stain to rule out amyloidosis, which we do in neurology, and I think that’s quite accessible to many clinicians everywhere. Now we also have another test called QSART (quantitative sudomotor axon reflex test), and that’s a test part of autonomic lab. Mayo Clinic has it, Cleveland Clinic has it, other big labs have it, and it’s hard to get there because the wait time is big.Svetlana Blitshteyn (17:15):Patients need to travel. Insurance doesn’t always authorize, so access is a big problem, but more accessible is the skin biopsy. And so, by doing skin biopsy and then correlating with neurologic exam findings, which oftentimes involved reduce pain and temperature sensation in the feet, sometimes in the hands you can conclude that the patient has small fiber neuropathy and that's a very tangible and objective diagnosis. There again, with everything related to diagnostics, some neuropathy is very patchy and the patchy neuropathy is the one that may not be in your feet where you do the skin biopsy. It may be in the torso, it may be in the face, and we don't have biopsy there. So you can totally miss it. The results can come back as normal, but you can have patchy type of small fiber neuropathy and there are also diagnostic tests that might be not sensitive to pick up issues. So I think in everything Long Covid, it highlights the fact that many tests that we use in medicine are outdated perhaps and not targeted towards these patients with Long Covid. Therefore we say, well, we did the workup, everything looks good. MRI looks good, cardiac echo looks great, and yet the patient is very sick with all kinds of Long Covid complications.Pure Post-Viral POTS?Eric Topol (18:55):Right. Now, before we get into the treatments, I want to just segment this a bit. Can you get pure POTS that is no Long Covid just POTS, or as you implied that usually there's some coalescence of symptoms with the usual Long Covid symptoms and POTS added to that?Svetlana Blitshteyn (19:21):So the studies have shown for us that about 40% of patients with POTS have post-infectious onset, which means more than a half doesn’t. And so of course you can have POTS from other causes and the most common is puberty, hormonal change, the most common age of onset is about 13, 14 years old and 80% of women of childbearing age and other triggers or pregnancy, hormonal change again, surgery, trauma like concussion, post-concussion, autonomic dysfunction is quite common.Eric Topol (20:05):So these are pure POTS without the other symptoms. Is that what you're saying in these examples?Svetlana Blitshteyn (20:12):Well, it's a very good question. It depends what you mean by pure POTS, and I have seen especially cardiologists cling to this notion that there is pure POTS and then there is POTS plus. Now I think majority of people don't have pure POTS and by pure POTS I think you mean those who have postural tachycardia and nothing else. And so most patients, I think 80% have a number of symptoms. So in my clinic I almost never see someone who is otherwise well and all they have is postural tachycardia and then they're having a great time. Some patients do exist like that, they tend to be athletic, they can still function in their life, but majority of patients come to us with symptoms like dizziness, like fatigue, like exercise intolerance, decline in functioning. So I think there is this notion that while there is pure POTS, let me just fix the postural tachycardia and the patient will be great and we all want that. Certainly sometimes I get lucky and when I give the patient a beta blocker or ivabradine or a calcium channel blocker, sometimes we use it, certainly they get better, but most patients don't have that because the disability that drives POTS isn't actually postural tachycardia, it's all that other stuff and a lot of it's neurologic, which is why I put this as a central nervous system disorder.TreatmentsEric Topol (21:58):Yeah, that's so important. Now you mentioned the treatments. These are drug treatments, largely beta blockers, and can you tell us what's the success rate with the various treatments that you use in your clinic?Svetlana Blitshteyn (22:13):So the first thing we'll have to mention is that there are no FDA approved therapies for POTS, just like there are no FDA approved therapies for Long Covid. And so, everything we use is off label. Now, oftentimes people think that because it wasn't evidence-based and there are no big trials. We do have trials, we do have trials for beta blockers and we know they work. We have trials for Midodrine and we know that's working. We also have fludrocortisone, which is a medication that improves sodium and water resorption. So we know that there are certain things we've used for decades that have been working, and I think that's what I was trying to convey in this paper of post Covid autonomic dysfunction assessment and treatment is that when you see these patients, and you can be of any specialty, you can be in primary care, you can be a physiatrist, a cardiologist, there are things to do, there are medications to use.Svetlana Blitshteyn (23:20):Oftentimes colleagues would say, well, you diagnose them and then what do you treat them with? And then I can refer them to table six in that paper and say, look at this list. You have a lot of options to try. We have the first line treatment options, which are your beta blockers and Midodrine and Florinef and Mestinon. And then we have the second line therapies you can choose from the stimulants are there Provigil, Nuvigil, Wellbutrin, Droxidopa is FDA approved for neurogenic orthostatic hypotension. Now we don't use it commonly, but it can still be tried in people whose blood pressures are falling on your exam. So we have a number of medications to choose from in addition to non-pharmacologic therapies.Eric Topol (24:14):Right now, I'm going to get to the non-pharmacologic in a moment, but the beta blocker, which is kind of the first one to give, it's a little bit paradoxical. It makes people tired, and these people already are, don't have much energy. Is the success rate of beta blocker good enough that that should be the first thing to try?Svetlana Blitshteyn (24:35):Absolutely. The first line medication treatment options are beta blockers. Why? Okay, why are they working? They're not only working to reduce heart rate, but they may also decrease sympathetic overactivity, which is the driving mechanism of autonomic dysfunction. And when you reduce that overactivity, even your energy level can improve. Now, the key here is to use a low dose. A lot of the time I see this mistake being done where the doctor is just prescribing 25 milligrams of metoprolol twice a day. Well, this is too high. And so, the key is to use very low doses and to use them and then increase them as needed. We have a bunch of beta blockers to choose from. We have the non-selective propranolol that you can use when someone maybe has a migraine headache or significant anxiety, they penetrate the brain, and we have non-selected beta blockers like atenolol, metoprolol and others that you can use at half a tablet. Sometimes I start my patients at quarter of tablet and then go from there. So low doses will block tachycardia, decrease sympathetic overactivity, and in many cases will allow the patient to remain upright for longer periods of time.Eric Topol (26:09):That's really helpful. Now, one of the other things, I believe it's approved in Canada, not in the US, is a vagal neuromodulation device. And I wonder, it seems like it would be nice to avoid drugs if there was a device that worked really well. Is there anything that is in the hopper for that?Svetlana Blitshteyn (26:32):Yeah, absolutely. Non-invasive vagus nerve stimulator is in clinical trials for POTS and other autonomic disorders, but we have it FDA for treatment of migraine and cluster headaches, so it's already approved here and it can also be helpful for chronic pain and gastroparesis. So there are studies on mice that show that with the application of noninvasive vagus nerve stimulator, there is reduction of pro-inflammatory cytokines. So here is this very important connection that comes from Kevin Tracey's work that showed inflammatory reflex, and that's a reflex between the vagus nerve and the immune system. So when we talk about sympathetic overactivity, we need to also think about that. That's a mechanism for pro-inflammatory state and possibly prothrombotic state. So anything that decreases sympathetic overactivity and enhancing parasympathetic tone is going to be good for you.Eric Topol (27:51):Now, let's go over to, I mean, I'm going to get into this body brain axis in a moment because there's another part of the story here that's becoming more interesting, fascinating, in fact every day. But before I do that, you mentioned the small fiber neuropathy. Is there a specific treatment for that or is that just something that is just an added dimension of the problem without a specific treatment available?Svetlana Blitshteyn (28:21):Yeah, we certainly have treatment for small fiber neuropathy. We have symptomatic treatment for neuropathic pain, and these medications are gabapentin, pregabalin, amitriptyline and low dose naltrexone that have been gaining popularity. We used that before the pandemic. We used low dose naltrexone for people with chronic pain related to joint hypermobility. And so, we have symptomatic, we also have patches and creams and all kinds of topical applications for people with neuropathic pain. Then we also have, we try to go for the root cause, right? So the number one cause of small fiber neuropathy in the United States is diabetes. And certainly, you need to control hyperglycemia and in some patients you only need a pre-diabetic state, not even full diabetes to already have peripheral neuropathy. So you want to control blood glucose level first and foremost. Now then we have a big category of autoimmune and immune mediated causes, and that's where it gets very interesting because practical experience from many institutions and many neurologists worldwide have shown that when you give a subset of patients with autoimmune small fiber neuropathy, immunotherapy like IVIG, a lot of patients feel significantly better. And so, I think paralleling our field in dysautonomia and POTS, we are looking forward to immunotherapy being more mainstream rather than exception from the rule because access and insurance coverage is a huge barrier for clinicians and patients, but that may be a very effective treatment options for treatment refractory patients whose symptoms do not improve with symptomatic treatment.Eric Topol (30:38):Now, with all these treatments that are on the potential menu to try, and of course sometimes it really is a trial and error to get one that hopefully works for Covid, Long Covid, what is the natural history? Does this persist over years, or can it be completely resolved?Svetlana Blitshteyn (31:00):That’s a great question. Everyday Long Covid patients ask me, and I think what we are seeing is that there is a good subset of patients for whom Long Covid is going to be temporary and they will improve and even recover close to normal. Now remember that original case series of patients that I reported in early 2021 based on my 2020 experience in that 20 patient case series, very few recovered, three patients recovered back to normal. Most patients had lingering ongoing chronic symptoms. So of course mine is a kind of a referral bias where I get to see the sickest patients and it looks to be like it’s a problem of chronic illness variety. But I also think there is going to be a subset of patients and then we have to study them. We need to study who got better and who didn’t. And people improve significantly and some even recover close to normal. But I think certain symptoms like maybe fatigue and heat intolerance could persist because those are very heavily rooted in autonomic dysfunction.Vaccination and POTSEric Topol (32:26):Yeah, well, that’s something that’s sobering and why we need trials and to go after this in much more intensity and priority. Now the other issue here is while with Covid, this is almost always the virus infection, there have been reports of the vaccine inducing POTS and Long Covid, and so what does that tell us?Svetlana Blitshteyn (32:54):Well, that’s a big, big topic. Years ago, I was the first one to report a patient with POTS that was developed after HPV vaccine Gardasil. Now, at that time I was a young neurologist. Then the patient came to me saying she was an athlete saying two weeks after Gardasil vaccine, she developed these very disabling symptoms. And I thought it was very interesting and unique and I thought, well, I’ll just publish it. I never knew that this would be the start of a whole different discussion and debate on HPV vaccines. There were multiple reports from numerous countries, Denmark, Mexico, Japan. Japan actually suspended their mass HPV vaccination program. So somehow it became a big deal. Now many people, including my colleagues didn’t agree that POTS can begin POTS, small fiber neuropathy, other adverse neurologic events can begin after vaccination in general. And so, this was a topic that was widely debated and the European medical agencies came back saying, we don't have enough evidence.Svetlana Blitshteyn (34:20):Of course, we all want to have a good cancer vaccine. And it was amazing to watch this Covid vaccine issue unfolding where more than one study now have shown that indeed you can develop POTS after Covid vaccines and that the rate of POTS after Covid vaccines is actually slightly higher than before vaccination. So I think it was kind of interesting to see this unfold where I was now invited by Nature Journal to write an editorial on this very topic. So I think it's important to mention that sometimes POTS can begin after vaccination and however, I've always advised my patients to be vaccinated even now. Even now, I have patients who are unvaccinated and I say, I'm worried about you getting a second Covid or third without these vaccines, so please get vaccinated. Vaccines are very important public health measure, but we also have to acknowledge that sometimes people develop POTS, small fiber neuropathy and other complications after Covid vaccines.Prominence of the Vagus Nerve Eric Topol (35:44):Yeah, I think this is important to emphasize here because of all vaccinations can lead to neurologic sequelae. I mean look at Guillain-Barre, which is even more worrisome and that brings in the autoimmune component I think. And of course, the Covid vaccines and boosters have a liability in a small, very small percentage of people to do this. And that can't be discounted because it's a small risk and it's always this kind of risk benefit story when you're getting vaccinated that you are again spotlighting. Now gets us to the biggest thing of all besides the practical pearls you've been coming up with to help everyone in patients and clinicians. In recent weeks, there's been explosion of these intra body circuits. There was a paper from Columbia last week that taught us about the body-brain circuits between the vagus nerve and the caudal Nucleus of the Solitary Tract (cNST) of the brain and how this is basically a master switch for the immune system. And so, the vagus nerve there and then you have this gut to brain story, which is the whole gut microbiome is talking to the brain through the vagus nerve. I mean, everything comes down to the vagus nerve. So you've been working all your career and now everything's coming into this vagus nerve kind of final common pathway that's connecting all sorts of parts of the body that we didn't truly understand before. So could you comment about this because it's pretty striking.Svetlana Blitshteyn (37:34):Absolutely. I think this pandemic is highlighting the pitfalls of everything we didn't know but should have in the past. And I think this is one of them. How important is the autonomic nervous system and how important is the vagus nerve that is the longest nerve in the body and carries the parasympathetic outflow. And I think this is a very important point that we have to move forward. We cannot stop at the autonomic knowledge that we've gained thus far. Autonomic neurology and autonomic medicine has always been the field with fellowship, and we have American Autonomic Society as well. But I think now is a great time to move forward and study how the autonomic nervous system communicates with the immunologic system. And again, Kevin Tracey's work was groundbreaking in the sense that he connected the dots and realized that if you stimulate the vagus nerve and the parasympathetic outflow, then you can reduce pro-inflammatory cytokines and that he has shown that you can also improve or significantly such disorders like rheumatoid arthritis and other autoimmune inflammatory conditions.Svetlana Blitshteyn (39:03):Now we have the invasive vagus nerve stimulation procedures, and quite honestly, we don't want that to be the mainstream because you don't want to have a neurosurgery as you go to treatment. Of course, you want the non-invasive vagus nerve stimulation being the mainstream therapy. But I think a lot of research needs to happen and it's going to be a very much a multidisciplinary field where we'll have immunology, translational sciences, we'll have neurosurgeons like Kevin Tracey, we'll have rheumatologists, neurologists, cardiologists. We'll have a multidisciplinary collaborative group to further understand what's going on in these autoimmune inflammatory disorders, including those of post-infectious origin.Eric Topol (40:02):I certainly agree with all of your points there. I mean, I'm really struck now because the immune system is front and center with so much of what we're seeing with of course Long Covid, but also things like Alzheimer's and Parkinson's and across the board with metabolic diseases. And here we have this connection with your sweet spot of the autonomic nervous system, and we have these pathways that had not been delineated before. I didn't know too much about the cNST of the brain to be such an important connect point for this. And I wonder, so here's another example. Concurrently the glucagon-like peptide 1 (GLP-1) drugs have this pronounced effect on reducing inflammation in the body before the weight loss and in the brain through the gut-brain axis, as we recently discussed with Dan Drucker, have you ever tried a GLP-1 drug or noticed that GLP-1 drugs help people with Long Covid or the POTS problem?Svetlana Blitshteyn (41:12):So I have heard anecdotally people with Long Covid using these drugs for other reasons, saying I feel much better. In fact, I recently had a woman who said, I have never been more productive than I am now on this medication. And she used the word productive, which is important because non-productive implies so many things. It's the brain fog, it's the physical fatigue, it's the mental fatigue. So I think we are, first of all, I want to say, I always said that the brain is not separate from the body. And neurologic manifestations of systemic disease is a very big untapped area. And I think it's not going to be surprising for me to see that these drugs can improve many brain parameters and possibly even neuroinflammation. We don't know, but we certainly need to study this.Eric Topol (42:15):Yeah, it's interesting because statins had been tried for multiple sclerosis, I think maybe not with very clear cut benefit effects, but here you have a new class of drugs which eventually are going to be in pills and not just one receptor but triple receptor, much more potent than what we're seeing in the clinic today. And you wonder if we're onto an anti-inflammatory for the brain and body that could help in this. I mean, we have a crisis here with Long Covid in POTS without a remedy, without adequate resources that are being dedicated to the clinical trials that are so vital to execute and find treatments. And that's just one candidate of many. I mean, obviously there's so many possible ones on the list. So if you could design studies now based on your extraordinary rich experience with Long Covid and POTS, what would you go after right now? What do you think is the thing that's, would it be to evaluate more of these noninvasive, non-pharmacologic treatments like the vagal nerve stimulation, or are there particular drugs that you find intriguing?Svetlana Blitshteyn (43:33):Well, a few years ago we published a case series of patients with severe POTS and nothing helped them, but they improved significantly and some even made close to recovery improvement and were able to return to their careers because they were treated with immunotherapy. So the paper is a subcutaneous immunoglobulin and plasmapheresis and the improvement was remarkable. I say there was one physician there who could not start her residency. She got sick in medical school and could not start her residency due to severe POTS and no amount of beta blockers, Midodrine or Florinef helped her get out the house and out of bed. And therefore, sheer luck, she was able to get subcutaneous immunoglobulin and she improved significantly, finished her residency and is now a practicing physician. So I think when we have these cases, it's important to bring them to scientific community. And I think I'm very excited that hopefully soon we're going to have trials of immunotherapy and immunomodulating treatment options for patients with Long Covid and hopefully POTS in general, I believe in novel, but also repurposed, repurposed treatment.Svetlana Blitshteyn (45:01):IVIG has been used for decades, so it's not a new medication. And contrary to popular belief, it's actually quite safe. It is expensive, it's a blood product, but we are very familiar with it in medicine and neurology. So I think we have to look forward to everything. And as I tell my patients, I'm always aggressive with medications when they come to me and their doctor said something like, well, let's see, it's going to go away on its own or keep doing your salt and fluids intake or wear compression sucks. Well, they're already doing it. It's not helping. And now it's a good time to try everything we have. And I would like to have more. I would like to have immunotherapy available. I would like to have immunosuppressants even tried potentially, and maybe we'll be able to try medication for possible viral persistence. Let's see how that works out. We have other inflammatory modalities out there that can potentially give us the tools. You see, I think being that it's a multifactorial disorder, that I don't think it's going to be one thing for everyone. We need to have a toolbox where we're going to choose what's best for your specific case because when we talk about Long Covid, we have to remember there are many different phenotypes under that umbrella.A Serious MatterEric Topol (46:40):Now, before we wrap up, I mean I guess I wanted to emphasize how there are clinicians out there who discount Long Covid in POTS. They think it's something that is a figment of imagination. Now, on the other hand, you and I especially, you know that people are totally disabled. Certain days they can't even get out of bed, they can't get back to their work, their life. And this can go on and on as we've been discussing. So can you set it straight about, I mean, you are seeing these people every day. What do you have to say to our fellow colleague physicians who tend to minimize and say, this is extremely rare, if it even exists, and that these people have some type of psychiatric problem. And it's really, it's distressing of course, but could you speak to that?Svetlana Blitshteyn (47:39):Absolutely. So as I always say, Long Covid is not a psychiatric or psychological disorder, and it's also not a functional neurologic disorder. Now, having said that, as I just mentioned, brain is not separate from the body. And neurologic manifestations of systemic disease are numerous. We just had a paper out on neurologic manifestations of mast cell activation syndrome. So certainly some patients will develop psychiatric manifestations and some patients will develop major depression, anxiety, OCD or functional neurologic disorder. But those are complications of systemic disease, meaning that you cannot diagnose a patient with anxiety and send them off to a psychologist or a psychiatrist without diagnosing POTS and treating it. And in many cases, when you approach an underlying systemic disorder with the right medications, like dysautonomia for example, all of the symptoms including psychological and psychiatric, tend to improve as well. And certainly, there is going to be a small subset of Long Covid patients whose primary problem is psychiatric.Svetlana Blitshteyn (49:01):And I think that's totally fine. That is not to say that all Long Covid is psychiatric. Some will have significant psychiatric manifestations. I mean, there are cases of post Covid psychosis and autoimmune encephalitis and all kinds of psychiatric problems that people may develop, but I think we can't really stratify well, this is physiologic and this word functional that I'm not a fan of. This is physiologic as we see it on MRI. But here, because we don't see anything on MRI, it means you are fine and can just exercise your way out of it. So I think with this Long Covid, hopefully we'll get answers as to the pathophysiology, but also most importantly, hopefully we'll get these therapies that millions of people before Covid pandemic were looking for.Eric Topol (50:02):Well, I just want to thank you because you were onto this well over 10, 15 years before there was such a thing as Covid, you've dedicated your career to this. These are some of the most challenging patients to try to help and has to be vexing, that you can't get their symptoms resolved no less the underlying problem. And we're indebted to you, Svetlana, because you've really been ahead of the curve here. You were writing a patient book before there were such things as patient activists in Long Covid, as we've seen, which have been so many of the heroes of this whole problem. But thank you for all the work you do. We'll continue to follow. We learned from you about POTS and Long Covid from your work and really appreciate everything you've done. Thank you.Svetlana Blitshteyn (50:58):Thank you so much, Eric, for having me. As I said, it's a great honor for me to be here. Remarkable, amazing. And thank you for all this work that you're doing and being an advocate for our field because we always need great champions to help us move forward in these complicated disorders.********************************The Ground Truths newsletters and podcasts are all free, open-access, without ads.Voluntary paid subscriptions all go to support Scripps Research. Many thanks for that—they greatly helped fund our summer internship programs for 2023 and 2024.Thanks to my producer Jessica Nguyen and Sinjun Balabanoff tor audio and video support at Scripps ResearchNote: you can select preferences to receive emails about newsletters, podcasts, or all I don’t want to bother you with an email for content that you’re not interested in. Get full access to Ground Truths at erictopol.substack.com/subscribe

Kate Crawford, a leading scholar in AI, discusses the environmental impacts of large AI systems, biases in AI data sets, exploitation of human labor in AI development, interdisciplinary collaboration in AI research, and concerns surrounding AI applications in medicine. She sheds light on the energy consumption and resource extraction involved in AI, societal biases embedded in AI, labor conditions in the industry, and ethical considerations in healthcare applications.

If there’s one person you’d want to talk to about immunology, the immune system and Covid, holes in our knowledge base about the complex immune system, and where the field is headed, it would be Professor Iwasaki. And add to that the topic of Women in Science. Here’s our wide-ranging conversation.A snippet of the video, Full length Ground Truths videos are posted here and you can subscribe. Ground Truths is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Transcript with many external link and links to the audio, recorded 30 April 2024 Eric Topol (00:06):Hello, it's Eric Topol and I'm really thrilled to have my friend Akiko Iwasaki from Yale, and before I start talking with Akiko, I just want to mention there aren't too many silver linings of the pandemic, but one for me was getting to know Professor Iwasaki. She is my go-to immunologist. I've learned so much from her over the last four years and she's amazing. She just, as you may know, she was just recently named one of the most influential people in the world by TIME100. [and also recognized this week in TIME 100 Health]. And besides that, she's been elected to the National Academy of Medicine, National Academy of Sciences. She's the president of the American Association of Immunologists and she's a Howard Hughes principal investigator. So Akiko, it's wonderful to have you to join into an extended discussion of things that we have of mutual interest.Akiko Iwasaki (01:04):Thank you so much, Eric, for having me. I equally appreciate all of what you do, and I follow your blog and tweets and everything. So thank you Eric.Eric Topol (01:14):Well, you are a phenom. I mean just, that's all I can say because I think it was so appropriate that TIME recognize your contributions, not just over the pandemic, but of course throughout your career, a brilliant career in immunology. I thought we'd start out with our topic of great interest on Long Covid. You've done seminal work here and this is an evolving topic obviously. I wonder what your latest thoughts are on the pathogenesis and where things are headed.Long CovidAkiko Iwasaki (01:55):Yeah, so as I have been saying throughout the pandemic, I think that Long Covid is not one disease. It's a collection of multiple diseases and that are sort of ending up in similar sets of symptoms. Obviously, there are over 200 symptoms and not everyone has the same set of symptoms, but what we are going for is trying to understand the disease drivers, so persistent viral infection is one of them. There are overwhelming evidence for that theory now, all the way from autopsy and biopsy studies to looking at peripheral blood RNA signatures as well as circulating spike protein and nucleocapsid proteins that are detected in people with Long Covid. Now whether that persistent virus or remnants of virus is driving the disease itself is unclear still. And that's why trials like the one that we are engaging with Harlan Krumholz on Paxlovid should tell us what percentage of the people are suffering from that type of driver and whether antivirals like Paxlovid might be able to mitigate those. If I may, I'd like to talk about three other hypotheses.Eric Topol (03:15):Yeah, I'd love for you to do that.Akiko Iwasaki (03:18):Okay, great. So the second hypothesis that we've been working on is autoimmune disease. And so, this is clearly happening in a subset of people, again, it's a heterogeneous disease, but we can actually not only look at reactogenicity of antibodies from people with Long Covid where we can transfer IgG from patients with Long Covid into an animal, a healthy animal, and really measure outcomes of a pathogenesis. So that's a functional evidence that antibodies in some people with Long Covid is really actually causing some of the damages that are occurring in vivo. And the third hypothesis is the reactivation of herpes viruses. So many of us adults have multiple latent herpes virus family members that are just dormant and are not really causing any pathologies. But in people with Long Covid, we're seeing elevated reactivation of viruses like Epstein-Barr virus (EBV) or Varicella-zoster virus (VZV) and that may again be just a signature of Long Covid, but it may also be driving some of the symptoms that people are suffering from.(04:32):So that's again, we see the signature over and over, not just our group, but multiple other groups, Michael Peluso's group, Jim Heath, and many others. So that's also an emerging evidence from multiple groups showing that. And finally, we think that inflammation that occurs during the acute phase can sort of chronically change some tissue tone. For instance, in the brain with Michelle Monje’s team, we developed a sort of localized mild Covid model of infection and showed that changes in microglia can be seen seven weeks post infection even though the virus is completely gone. So that means that inflammation that's established as a result of this initial infection can have prolonged sequence and sequela within the person and that may also be driving disease. And Eric, the reason we need to understand these diseases separately is because not only for diagnostic purposes, but for therapeutic purposes because to target a persistent virus is very different approach from targeting autoantibodies, for example.Eric Topol (05:49):Well, that's great. There's a lot to unpack there as you laid out four distinct paths that could result in the clinical syndrome and sequelae. I think you know I had the chance to have a really fun conversation with Michelle about their joint work that you've done, and she reminded me how she made a cold call to you to start as a collaboration, which I thought was fantastic. Look what that yielded. But yeah, this is fascinating because as I think you're getting at is that it may not be the same pathogenesis in any given individual so that all these, and even others might be operative. I guess maybe I first delve into the antibody story as you're well aware, we see after people get Covid a higher rate of autoimmune diseases crop up, which is really interesting because it seems to rev up self-directed immune response. And this I think many people haven't really noted yet, although obviously you're well aware of this, it's across all the different autoimmune diseases, connective tissue disease, not just one in particular. And it's, as you say, the idea that you could take the blood from a person suffering from Long Covid and give it to an experimental animal model and be able to recapitulate some of the abnormalities, it's really pretty striking. So the question I guess is if you were to do plasmapheresis and try to basically expunge these autoantibodies, wouldn't you expect people to have some symptomatic benefit pretty rapidly or is it just that the process is already far from the initiating step?Akiko Iwasaki (07:54):That's a great question. Plasmapheresis may be able to transiently improve the person if they're suffering from these autoantibody mediated diseases. People have reported, for example, IVIG treatment has dramatically improved their symptoms, but not in everybody. So it's really critical to understand who's suffering from this particular driver and appropriately treat those people. And there are many other very effective therapies in autoimmune disease field that can be repurposed for treating these patients as well.Eric Topol (08:34):The only clinical trial that has clicked so far, interestingly, came out of Hong Kong with different types of ways to manipulate the gut microbiome, which again, you know better than me is a major modulator of our immune system response. What are your thoughts about taking advantage of that way to somehow modulate this untoward immune response in people with this condition?Akiko Iwasaki (09:07):Yeah, so that is an exciting sort of development, and I don't mean to discount the importance of microbiome at all. It's just the drivers that are mentioning are something that can be directly linked to disease, but certainly dysbiosis and translocation of metabolites and microbiome itself could trigger Long Covid as well. So it's something that we're definitely keeping our eyes on. And as you say, Eric, the immune system is in intimate contact with the gut microbiome and also the gut is intimate contact with the brain. So there's a lot of connections that we really need to be paying attention to. So yeah, absolutely. This is a very exciting development.Eric Topol (09:57):And it is intriguing of course, the reactivation of viruses. I mean, we’ve learned in recent years how important EBV is in multiple sclerosis (MS). The question I have for you on that pathway, is this just an epiphenomena or do you actually think that could be a driving force in some people?Akiko Iwasaki (10:19):Yeah, so that's really hard to untangle in people. I mean, David Putrino and my team we're planning a clinical trial using Truvada. Truvada obviously is an HIV drug, but it has reported antiviral activity to Epstein-Barr virus (EBV) and others. So potentially we can try to interrogate that in people, but we're also developing mouse models that can sort of recapitulate EBV like viral reactivation and to see whether there's any sort of causal link between the reactivation and disease process.Eric Topol (10:57):Right now, recently there's been a bunch of anecdotes of people who get the glucagon-like peptide one (GLP-1) drugs which have a potent anti-inflammatory, both systemic and in the brain. I'd love to test these drugs, but of course these companies that make them or have other interests outside of Long Covid, do you think there's potential for a drug like that?Akiko Iwasaki (11:23):Yeah, so those drugs seem to have a lot of miraculous effects on every disease. So obviously it has to be used carefully because many people with Long Covid have issues with liver functions and other existing conditions that may or may not be conducive to taking those types of GLP-1 agonists. But in subset of people, maybe this can be tried, especially due to the anti-inflammatory properties, it may benefit again, a subset of people. I don't expect a single drug to cure everyone. That would be pretty amazing, but unlikely.Eric Topol (12:09):Absolutely. And it's unfortunate we are not further along in this whole story of clinical trials, testing treatments and applauding your efforts with my friend Harlan there to get into the testing which we had hoped RECOVER was going to do with their more than billion dollars or allocation, which didn't get us too far in that. Now before we leave Long Covid, which we could speak about for hours, I mean it's so darn important because so many people are really out there disabled or suffering on a daily basis or periodically they get better and then get worse again. There's been this whole idea that, oh, it's going away and that reinfections don't pose a threat. Maybe you could straighten that story out because I think there seems to be some miscues about the risk of Long Covid even as we go along with the continued circulating virus.Akiko Iwasaki (13:11):Right, so when you look at the epidemiological evidence of Long Covid, clearly in the beginning when we had no vaccines, no antivirals, no real good measure against Covid, the incident of developing Long Covid per infection was higher than a current date where we do have vaccines and Omicron may have changed its property significantly. So if you compare, let's say the Delta period versus Omicron period, there seems to be a reduced risk per infection of Long Covid. However, Omicron is super infectious. It's infected millions of people, and if you look at the total number of people suffering from Long Covid, we're not seeing a huge decline there at all because of the transmissibility of Omicron. So I think it's too early for us to say, okay, the rates are declining, we don't need to worry about it. Not at all, I think we still have to be vigilant.(14:14):We need to be up to date on vaccines and boosters because those seem to reduce the risk for Long Covid and whether Paxlovid can reduce the rate of Long Covid at the acute phase for the high risk individual, it seems to be yes, but for people who are not at high risk may or may not be very effective. So again, we just need to be very cautious. It's difficult obviously, to be completely avoiding virus at this time point, but I think masking and anything you can do, vaccination boosters is going to be helpful. And a reinfection does carry risk for developing Long Covid. So that prior infection is not going to prevent Long Covid altogether, even though the risk may be slightly reduced in the first infection. So when you think about these risks, again we need to be cognizant that reinfection and some people have multiple infections and then eventually get Long Covid, so we're just not safe from Long Covid yet.Nasal Vaccines and Mucosal ImmunityEric Topol (15:24):Right. No, I think that's the problem is that people have not acknowledged that there's an ongoing risk and that we should continue to keep our guard up. I want to applaud you and your colleagues. You recently put out [Yale School of Public Health] this multi-panel about Covid, which we'll post with this podcast that gave a lot of the facts straight and simple diagrams, and I think this is what you need is this is kind of like all your threads on Twitter. . They're always such great educational ways to get across important information. So now let's go onto a second topic of great mutual interest where you've also been a leader and that's in the mucosal nasal vaccine story. I had the privilege of writing with you a nice article in Science Immunology back in 2022 about Operation Nasal Vaccine, and unfortunately we don't have a nasal vaccine. We need a nasal vaccine against Covid. Where do we stand with this now?Akiko Iwasaki (16:31):Yeah, so you're right. I mean nasal vaccines, I don't really know what the barrier is because I think the preclinical models all support the effectiveness against transmission and infection and obviously disease. And there is a White House initiative to support rapid development of next generation vaccine, which includes mucosal vaccine, so perhaps that's sort of pushing some of these vaccine candidates forward. You're probably more familiar than me about those kinds of events that are happening. But yeah, it's unfortunate that we don't have an approved mucosal booster vaccine yet, and our research has shown that as simple as a spray of recombinant spike protein without any adjuvants are able to restimulate immune response and then establish mucosal immunity in the nasal cavity, which goes a long way in preventing infection as well as transmission. So yeah, I mean I'm equally frustrated that things like that don't exist yet.The Neomycin and Neosporin SurpriseEric Topol (17:52):Well, I mean the work that you and many other groups around the world have published on this is so compelling and this is the main thing that we don't have now, which is a way to prevent infection. And I think most of us would be very happy to have a spray that every three or four months and gave us much higher levels of protection than we're ever going to get from shots. And your whole concept of prime and spike, I mean this is something that we could have had years ago if there was a priority, and unfortunately there never has been. Now, the other day you came with a surprise in a paper on Neomycin as an alternate or Neosporin ointment. Can you tell us about that? Because that one wasn't expected. This was to use an antibiotic in a way to reduce Covid and other respiratory virus.Akiko Iwasaki (18:50):Right. So yeah, that's a little known fact. I mean, of course widespread use of antibiotics has caused some significant issues with resistance and so on. However, when you look at the literature of different types of antibiotics, we have reported in 2018 that certain types of antibiotics known as aminoglycoside, which includes Neosporin or neomycin, has this sort of unintended antiviral property by triggering Toll-like receptor 3 in specialized cell types known as conventional dendritic cell type 1. And we published that for a genital herpes model that we were working on at the time. But because it's acting on the host, the Toll-like receptor 3 on the host cell to induce interferon and interferon stimulated genes to prevent the replication of the virus, we knew that it could be pan-viral. It doesn't really matter what the virus is. So we basically leverage that discovery that was made by a postdoc Smita Gopinath when she was in the lab to see if we can use that in the nasal cavity.(20:07):And that's what Tianyang Mao, a former graduate student did, in fact. And yeah, little spray of neomycin in the nose of the mice reduce this infection as well as disease and can even be used to treat shortly after the infection disease progress and using hamster models we also showed that hamsters that are pretreated with neomycin when they were caged with infected hamsters, the transmission rate was much reduced. And we also did with Dr. Charles Dela Cruz, a small clinical trial, randomized though into placebo and Neosporin arms of healthy volunteers. We asked them to put in a pea size amount of Neosporin on a cotton swab into the nose, and they were doing that twice a day for seven days. We measured the RNA from the nose of these people and indeed see that more than half the participants in the Neosporin group had elevated interferon stimulated genes, whereas the control group, which were given Vaseline had no response. So this sort of shows the promise of using something as generic and cheap as Neosporin to trigger antiviral state in the nose. Now it does require a much larger trial making sure that the safety profiles there and effectiveness against viral infection, but it's just a beginning of a story that could develop into something useful.New Frontiers in Immunology and Tx CellsEric Topol (21:51):Yeah, I thought it was fascinating, and it does bring up, which I think has also been underdeveloped, is our approaches for interferon a frontline defense where augmenting that, just getting that exploiting the nasal mucosa, the entry site, whether it be through that means or of course through even more potent a nasal vaccine, it's like a missing, it's a hole in our whole defense of against this virus that's led to millions of people not just dying, but of course also sick and also with Long Covid around the world. So I hope that we'll see some progress, but I thought that was a really fascinating hint of something to come that could be very helpful in the meantime while we're waiting for specific nasal vaccines. Now added to all these things recently, like last week you published a paper in Cell with your husband who's in the same department, I think at Yale. Is that right? Can you tell us about that and this paper about the whole new perspectives in immunology?Akiko Iwasaki (23:05):Yeah, so my husband Ruslan Medzhitov is a very famous immunologist who's in the same department, and we've written four or five review and opinion pieces together over the years. This new one is in Cell and it's really exploring new perspectives in immunology. We were asked by the editors to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the Cell journal with a perspective on the immune system. And the immune response is just a beautiful system that is triggered in response to specific pathogens and can really provide long-term or even sometimes lifelong immunity and resistance against pathogens and it really saves our lives. Much has been learned throughout the last 20, 30 years about the innate and adaptive immune system and how they're linked. In this new perspective, we are trying to raise some issues that the current paradigm cannot explain properly, some of the mysteries that are still remaining in the immune system.(24:22):And we try to come up with new concepts about even the role of the immune system in general. For instance, is the immune system only good for fighting pathogens or can it be repurposed for conducting normal physiology in the host? And we came up with a new subset of T-cells known as, or we call it Tx cells, which basically is an interoceptive type of T-cells that monitor homeostasis in different tissues and are helping with the normal process of biology as opposed to fighting viruses or bacteria or fungi. But these cells, when they are not appropriately regulated, they are also the source of autoimmune diseases because they are by design reactive against auto antigens. And so, this is a whole new framework to think about, a different arm of the immune function, which is really looking inside of our body and not really fighting against pathogens, but we believe these cells exist, and we know that the counterpart of Tx cells, which is the T regulatory cells, are indeed well known for its physiological functions. So we're hoping that this new perspective will trigger a new set of approaches in the field to try to understand this interceptive property of T-cells.Eric Topol (25:59):Yeah, well, I thought it was fascinating, of course, and I wanted to get into that more because I think what we're learning is this immune system not only obviously is for cancer whole. We're only starting to get warmed up with immunotherapy where checkpoint inhibitors were just the beginning and now obviously with vaccines and all these different ways that we can take the CAR-T cells, engineered T-cells, take the immune system to fight cancer and potentially to even use it as a way to prevent cancer. If you have these, whether it's Tx or Tregs or whatever T-cells can do this. But even bigger than that is the idea that it's tied in with the aging process. So as you know, again, much more than I do, our senescent immune cells are not good for us. And the whole idea is that we could build immune resilience if we could somehow figure out these mysteries that you're getting at, whereby we get vulnerable just as we were with Covid. And as we get older, we get vulnerable to not just infections, but everything going wrong, whether it's the walls of our arteries or whether it's the cancer or the immunity that's going on in our brain for Alzheimer's and neurodegenerative diseases. How can we fix the immune system so that we age more healthilyThe Immune System and Healthy Aging Akiko Iwasaki (27:37):Oh yeah. A lot of billionaires are also interested in that question and are pouring money into this question. It's interesting, but when you think about the sort of evolutionary perspective, we humans are only living so long. In the very recent decades, our life expectancy used to be much shorter and all we had to survive was to reproduce and generate the next progeny. But nowadays, because of this amazing wealth and health interventions and food and everything else, we're just living so much longer than even our grandparents. The immune system didn't evolve to deal with such one to begin with. So we were doing fine living up to 30 years of age or whatever. But now that we're living up to a hundred years, the immune system isn't really designed to keep up with this kind of stressors. But I think you're getting at a very important kind of more engineering questions of how do we manipulate the immune system or rejuvenate it so that we can remain healthy into the later decades? And it is well known that the immune system itself ages and that our ability to produce new lymphocytes, for example, decline over time and thymus that is important for T-cell development shrinks over time. And so anatomically it's impossible to help stop that process. However, is there a way of, for example, transferring some factors or engineering the immune cells to remain healthy and even like hematopoiesis itself can be manipulated to perhaps rejuvenate the whole immune system in their recent papers showing that. So this is a new frontier.Eric Topol (29:50):Do you think that some point in the future, we'll ex vivo inject Yamanaka factors into these cell lines and instead of this idea that you know get young plasma to old folks, and I mean since we don't know what's in there and it doesn't specifically have an effect on immune cells, who knows how it's working, but do you foresee that that might be a potential avenue going forward or even an in vivo delivery of this?Akiko Iwasaki (30:22):Yeah, it's not impossible, right? There are really rapidly evolving technologies and gene therapies that are becoming online. So it's not impossible to think about engineering in situ as you're suggesting, but we also have to be certain that we are living longer, but also healthy. So we do have to not only just deal with the aging immune system, but preventing neurodegenerative diseases and so on. And the immune system may have a role to play there as well. So there's a lot of, I mean, I can't think of a non-genetically mediated disease that doesn't involve the immune system.Eric Topol (31:03):Sure. No, I mean, it's just, when I think about this, people keep talking about the digital era of digital biology, but I actually think of it more as digital immunobiology, which is driving this because it's center stage and in more and more over time. And the idea that I'm concerned about is that we could rejuvenate the relevant immune cells or the whole immune response, but then it's such a delicate balance that we could actually wind up with untoward, whether it's autoimmune or overly stimulated immune system. It's not such a simple matter, as I'm sure you would agree. Now, this gets me to a broader thing which you've done, which is a profound contribution in life science and medicine, which is being an advocate for women in science. And I wonder if you could speak to that because you have been such a phenomenal force propelling the importance of women in science and not just doing that passively, but also standing up for women, which is being an activist is how you get things to change. So can you tell us about your thoughts there?An Activist for Women in ScienceAkiko Iwasaki (32:22):Yeah, so I grew up in Japan, and part of the reason I left Japan at the age of 16 was that I felt very stifled because of the societal norm and expectation of what a woman should be. And I felt like I didn't have the opportunity to develop my skills as a scientist remaining in Japan. And maybe things have changed over the years, but at the time when I was growing up, that's how I felt. And so, I was very cognizant of biases in society. And so, in the US and in Canada where I also trained, there's a lot less barrier to success, and we are able to do pretty much anything we want, which is wonderful, and that's why I think I'm here. But at the same time, the inequity still exists, even in pay gaps and things like that that are easy to fix but are still kind of insidious and it's there.(33:32):And Yale School of Medicine has done a great job partly because of the efforts of women who spoke up and who actually started to collect evidence for pay gap. And now there's very little pay gap because there's active sort of involvement of the dean and everyone else to ensure equity in the medical school. But it's just a small segment of the society. We really need to expand this to other schools and making sure that women are getting paid equally as men in the same ranks. And also, I see still some sexual harassment or more just toxic environment for people in general in academia. Some PIs get away with a lot of behavior that's not conducive to a healthy environment, so I have written about that as well and how we can have antidotes for such toxic environments. And it really does require the whole village to act on it. It's not just one person speaking up. And there should be measures placed to make sure that those people who does have this tendency of abusive behavior that they can get training and just being aware of these situations and corrective behavior. So I think there's still a lot of work left in academia, but things have obviously improved dramatically over the last few decades, and we are in a very, very good place, but we just have to keep working to achieve true equity.Why Don’t We Have Immunome Check-Ups?Eric Topol (35:25):Well applauding your efforts for that, and I'm still in touch with that. We got a ways to go, and I hope that we'll see steady and even more accelerated and improvement to get to parity, which is what it should be. And I really think you've been a model for doing this. It isn't like you aren't busy with everything else, so to fit that in is wonderful. In closing up, one of the things that I wonder about is our ability to assess back to the immune system for a moment isn't what it should be. That is we do a CBC and we have how many lymphocytes, how many this, why don't we have an immunome, why doesn’t everybody serially have an immune system checkup? Because that would tell us if we’re starting to go haywire and then maybe hunt for reactivated viruses or what’s going on. Do you foresee that we could ever get to a practical immunome as we go forward? Because it seems like it’s a big missing link right now.Akiko Iwasaki (36:33):Yeah, I think that’s a great idea. I mean, I’ll be the first one to sign up for the immunome.Eric Topol (36:40):But I’m depending on you to make it happen.Akiko Iwasaki (36:44):Well, interestingly, Eric, there are lots of amazing technologies that are developed even during the pandemic, which is monitoring everything from antibody reactivity to reactivated viruses to the cytokines to every cell marker you can imagine. So the technologies out there, it’s just I think a matter of having the right set of panels that are relatively affordable because some of these things are thousands of dollars per sample to analyze, and then of course clinical validation, something that’s CLIA approved, and then we can start to, I guess the insurance company needs to also cover this, right? So we need to demonstrate the benefit to health in the long run to be able to afford this kind of immunome analysis. But I think that very wealthy people can already get this done.Eric Topol (37:43):Yeah, well, we want to make it so it's a health equity story, not of course, only for the crazy ones that are out there that are taking 112 supplements a day and whatnot. But it's intriguing because I think we might be able to get ahead of things if we had such an easy means. And as you said during the pandemic, for example, my friends here in La Jolla at La Jolla Immunology did all kinds of T-cell studies that were really insightful and of course done with you and others around the country and elsewhere to give us insights that you didn't get just from neutralizing antibodies. But it isn't something that you can get done easily. Now, I think this immunome hopefully will get us to another level in the future. One of the most striking things I've seen in our space clinically before wrapping up is to take the CD19 CAR T therapies to deplete the B cells of people with lupus, systemic sclerosis and other conditions, and completely stop their autoimmune condition. And when the B cells come back, they're not fighting themselves. They're not self-directed anymore. Would you have predicted this? This seems really striking and it may be a clue to the kind of mastering approaches to autoimmune diseases in the future.Akiko Iwasaki (39:19):Yeah, absolutely. So for multiple sclerosis, for example, where B cells weren't thought to be a key player by doing anti-CD20 depletion, there's this remarkable clinical effects. So I think we can only find the answer experimentally in people when they do these clinical trials and show this remarkable effects. That's when we say, aha, we don't really understand immunology. You know what I mean? That's when we have to be humble about what we think we understand. We really don't know until we try it. So that's a really good lesson learned. And these may be also applicable to people with autoimmune phenotype in Long Covid, right? We may be able to benefit from similar kinds of depletion therapy. So I think we have a lot to learn still.Eric Topol (40:14):Yeah, that's why, again, going back to the paper you just had in Cell about the mysteries and about some new ideas and challenging the dogma is so important. I still consider the immune system most complex one in the body by far, and I'm depending on you Akiko to unravel it, not to put any weight on your shoulders. Anyway, this has been so much fun. You are such a gem and always learning from you, and I can't thank you enough for all the work. And the fact is that you've got decades ahead of you to keep building on this. You've already done enough for many people, many scientists in your career, and I know you'll keep going. So we're all going to be following you with great interest in learning from you on a frequent basis. And I hope we'll build on some of the things we've talked about like a Long Covid treatment, treatments that are effective nasal vaccines, maybe even some dab of Neosporin, and keep on the momentum we’ve had with the understanding of the immune system, and finally, someday achieving the true parity of gender and science. And so, thank you for all that you do.Akiko Iwasaki (41:35):Thank you so much, Eric.************************CreditsHeadshot photo credits by Robert Lisak, Yale School of MedicineMy producer for Ground Truths is Jessica Nguyen, Scripps Research and our technical support for audio/video is by SInjun Balabanoff at Scripps Research.I hope you found the spot informative. Please share itThe Ground Truths newsletters and podcasts are all free, open-access, without ads.Voluntary paid subscriptions all go to support Scripps Research. 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