Spiritual Life and Leadership

Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Steven Garber has spent his life helping people get a clearer understanding of vocation in general, but also helping them get clear on their own unique vocations.  In this interview, he will do the same for you.  Near the end of the episode, Steve tells three brief stories to help us understand why pastors and churches need to have a robust understanding of vocation, so be sure you listen to the end.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Steven Garber is author of Visions of Vocation and Professor of Marketplace Theology at Regent College.Steve shares his story and what led him to focus his work on matters of vocation.“Who keeps on keeping on?” became the question of Steve’s life.“Vocation” is a big word and a big concept.  It is much more than a job or occupation.The first question we ask must be, “Who am I?”  The second must be, “Why am I?”  From these two questions follows a third:  “What should I do with my life?”In his book, Steven Garber writes, “To know the world and still love it. There is not a more difficult task that human beings face.”  Steve unpacks this statement.Steve and Markus discuss marriage as a vocation, citing a series of poems by Madeleine L’Engle called To a Long-Loved Love.Visions of Vocation focuses on the question, “Knowing what you know about yourself and the world, what are you going to do?”Steve explains how he would help a person begin to understand their vocation.Steven Garber shares three stories that demonstrate why it’s so important for ministry leaders to have a robust understanding of vocation.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Books mentioned:Visions of Vocation: Common Grace for the Common Good, by Steven GarberThe Ordering of Love: The New and Collected Poems of Madeleine L'Engle, by Madeleine L'EngleWork Matters: Connecting Sunday Worship to Monday Work, by Tom NelsonFlourish San DiegoSix Practices of a Flourishing Church, free resource by Markus WatsonInstructions to leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:Click HERE.Click on the link that says, "Listen on Apple Podcasts."In the window that opens, click the button that says, "Open Link."  This will open iTunes.To the right of the Spiritual Life and Leadership logo, click "Ratings and Reviews."Under the heading, "Customer Reviews," click on the button that says, "Write a Review."Select the number of stars and write your review.Click submit.I'd be so grateful if you did this.  Thank you!— Links to Amazon are affiliate links.  If you make a purchase through anGet Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Jason Elam, host of the Messy Spirituality podcast, has an amazing story.  As a pastor, Jason had all the answers, but he didn't have a lot of love.  Then something happened.  Today, Jason Elam is no longer a pastor and he doesn't have all the answers.  But he has discovered the love of God in a way he could never have imagined before.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Jason Elam is a former pastor and host of the Messy Spirituality podcast.Jason is currently writing a book with the working title, From Ashes We Rise: Rebuilding Your Faith When Your Life Burns Down.Jason was constantly afraid of God when he was a child.Jason was often a guest speaker in churches who got people “back into line.”It was by losing his church and losing his marriage that Jason hit “that bottom place.” This is where Jason began to learn that he was loved unconditionally by God.Jason Elam had a near death experience as a child in which he experienced the unconditional acceptance of God.  That acceptance always pulled him away from the legalism of his tradition.During the final year of Jason Elam’s ministry, Jason’s church stopped holding worship service. Instead, they held an indoor farmer’s market with food for anyone who needed it.We can only truly know God when we truly know ourselves.Certainty makes preaching easier but living with yourself harder.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Jason Elam:Website:  www.messyspirituality.orgBooks mentioned:Falling Upward: A Spirituality for the Two Halves of Life, by Richard RohrThe Gift of Being Yourself, by David BennerSurrender to Love, by David BennerLife of the Beloved, by Henri NouwenInstructions to leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:Click HERE.Click on the link that says, "Listen on Apple Podcasts."In the window that opens, click the button that says, "Open Link."  This will open iTunes.To the right of the Spiritual Life and Leadership logo, click "Ratings and Reviews."Under the heading, "Customer Reviews," click on the button that says, "Write a Review."Select the number of stars and write your review.Click submit.I'd be so grateful if you did this.  Thank you!— Links to Amazon are affiliate links.  If you make a purchase through any of these links, I’ll receive a small commission–which will help pay for the Spiritual Life and Leadership podcast!Get Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!To celebrate the 75th episode of Spiritual Life and Leadership, I'm bringing a short conversation with my twelve-year-old daughter, Macy Watson.  We talk about her thoughts on God and we talk about leadership.Oh, and what the heck is "a box with feelings"?  Well, you'll just have to listen to find out!THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Markus interviews his daughter, Macy, about her thoughts on 1) God and the spiritual life and 2) leadership.Macy thinks of God as the most understanding Person ever.Macy sometimes thinks of herself as “a box with feelings”.Macy shares her experience as captain of her cheer team.Macy believes forcing people to do what you want them to do is bad leadership.Markus explains to Macy the metaphor of “the carrot and the stick.”RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Spiritual Life and Leadership:Facebook GroupFacebook PageInstructions to leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:Click HERE.Click on the link that says, "Listen on Apple Podcasts."In the window that opens, click the button that says, "Open Link."  This will open iTunes.To the right of the Spiritual Life and Leadership logo, click "Ratings and Reviews."Under the heading, "Customer Reviews," click on the button that says, "Write a Review."Select the number of stars and write your review.Click submit.I'd be so grateful if you did this.  Thank you!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!This is the third and final part of this series based on the book, Surfing the Edge of Chaos.  I’ve been talking with Jason Coker about the role of disequilibrium in regard to systems and organizations; specifically, that the experience of disequilibrium actually makes a system or organization stronger.And that goes for churches, as well, since churches are systems.  When a church lingers for too long in a state of equilibrium—where everything is, y’know, fine—it actually becomes weaker and more at risk of dying.  But when a church experiences disequilibrium at the edge of chaos—and is able to navigate that experience wisely—it becomes stronger, more resilient, and healthier.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Jason Coker shares how he is doing in light of current events, particularly the call for racial justice.The four principles of Surfing the Edge of Chaos are:Equilibrium is a precursor to death.  When a living system is in a state of equilibrium, it is less responsive to changes occurring around it.  This places it at maximum risk.In the face of threat, or when galvanized by a compelling opportunity, living things move toward the edge of chaos.  This condition evokes higher levels of mutation and experimentation, and fresh new solutions are more likely to be found.When this excitation takes place, the components of living systems self-organize and new forms and repertoires emerge from the turmoil.Living systems cannot be directed along a linear path.  Unforeseen consequences are inevitable.  The challenge is to disturb them in a manner that approximates the desired outcome.Markus explains self-organization using the examples of dental plaque and Tupperware.Jason discusses the non-denominational movement of the 1960s and 1970s as an example of self-organization.As churches are unable to meet in person during the coronavirus, what kind of self-organizing is taking place now?Leaders have to step back and let go of control when self-organization begins to take place.Jason discusses Black Lives Matter as a movement that is unable to be controlled by more established black leaders.To be a strong leader is not necessarily to take control, but to refuse to take control.Jason shares how his church went through a two-year process of discernment that led his church to change their name from First Christian Church of Oceanside to Oceanside Sanctuary.Change happens “at first slowly” and then “all of a sudden.”RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Jason CokerOceanside SanctuaryBooks mentioned:Surfing the Edge of Chaos:  The Laws of Nature and the New Laws of Business, by Richard T. Pascale, et.al.Beyond Thingification Study Guide— Links to Amazon are affiliate links.  If you make a purchase through any of these links, I’ll receive a small commission–which will help pay for the Spiritual Life and Leadership podcast!Get Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!In this episode, Jason and I talk about the second principle in the book, Surfing the Edge of Chaos.  We talk about how the experience of disequilibrium evokes creative experimentation and fresh new solutions that leads to greater health.  And, specifically, we talk about how this unfolded in Jason’s church, Oceanside Sanctuary.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:The four principles of Surfing the Edge of Chaos are:Equilibrium is a precursor to death.  When a living system is in a state of equilibrium, it is less responsive to changes occurring around it.  This places it at maximum risk.In the face of threat, or when galvanized by a compelling opportunity, living things move toward the edge of chaos.  This condition evokes higher levels of mutation and experimentation, and fresh new solutions are more likely to be found.When this excitation takes place, the components of living systems self-organize and new forms and repertoires emerge from the turmoil.Living systems cannot be directed along a linear path.  Unforeseen consequences are inevitable.  The challenge is to disturb them in a manner that approximates the desired outcome.Jason briefly shares his church’s history and experiences of equilibrium and disequilibrium.Systems move in accordance with different kinds of “attractors.”  The three primary attractors are 1) Point Attractors, 2) Cycle Attractors, and 3) Strange Attractors.Strange attractors are those that lure systems toward the edge of chaos.Jason sees his pastoral role when he started at his church as one of creating disequilibrium.  From that disequilibrium, fresh new solutions can emerge.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Jason CokerOceanside SanctuaryBooks mentioned:Surfing the Edge of Chaos:  The Laws of Nature and the New Laws of Business, by Richard T. Pascale, et.al.Spiritual Life and Leadership Facebook GroupInstructions to leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:Click HERE.Click on the link that says, "Listen on Apple Podcasts."In the window that opens, click the button that says, "Open Link."  This will open iTunes.To the right of the Spiritual Life and Leadership logo, click "Ratings and Reviews."Under the heading, "Customer Reviews," click on the button that says, "Write a Review."Select the number of stars and write your review.Click submit.I'd be so grateful if you did this.  Thank you!— Links to Amazon are affiliate links.  If you make a purchase through any of these links, I’ll receive a small commission–which will help pay for the Spiritual Life and Leadership podcast!Get Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!“The edge of chaos is a condition, not a location.  It is a permeable, intermediate state through which order and disorder flow, not a finite line of demarcation.  Moving to the edge of chaos creates upheaval but not dissolution.  That’s why the edge of chaos is so important.  The edge is not the abyss.  It’s the sweet spot for productive change.”That’s a quote from Surfing the Edge of Chaos, which looks at organizations as “complex adaptive systems.”  These systems—in order to remain healthy and vibrant—require periods of “disequilibrium.”  Seasons when death seems to be knocking on the front door.  And it is these seasons of disequilibrium and death that make the system stronger in the long run.In this episode, Jason Coker and I unpack the concepts of equilibrium and disequilibrium, and begin to look at his particular church and the role disequilibrium—and near death—played in his church's eventual revitalization.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Jason Coker is the pastor of Oceanside Sanctuary in Oceanside, California, and a lecturer at California State University, San Marcos.Human beings tend to prefer to live life in a state of equilibrium, when everything is safe and predictable.We need disequilibrium to grow and thrive.These concepts come from Surfing the Edge of Chaos:  The Laws of Nature and the New Laws of Business, by Richard T. Pascale, Mark Milleman, and Linda Gioja.We prefer equilibrium over disequilibrium.  But we need disequilibrium in order to grow and thrive.Surfing the Edge of Chaos uses the concept of “complex adaptive systems” as a way of thinking about how to navigate organizational challenges.In a state of equilibrium, the system is at its weakest.A system actually needs disequilibrium in order to thrive and grow and to become stronger and healthier.“Prolonged equilibrium dulls an organism’s senses and saps its ability to arouse itself appropriately in the face of danger.”Four principles (from Surfing the Edge of Chaos):Equilibrium is a precursor to death.  When a living system is in a state of equilibrium, it is less responsive to changes occurring around it.  This places it at maximum risk.In the face of threat, or when galvanized by a compelling opportunity, living things move toward the edge of chaos.  This condition evokes higher levels of mutation and experimentation, and fresh new solutions are more likely to be found.When this excitation takes place, the components of living systems self-organize and new forms and repertoires emerge from the turmoil.Living systems cannot be directed along a linear path.  Unforeseen consequences are inevitable.  The challenge is to disturb them in a manner that approximates the desired outcome.Jason suggests that death is actually necessary.Markus and Jason discuss how Jason’s church experienced a long period of equilibrium before entering a period of severe disequilibrium in the 1970s, lasting all the way into the 2010s.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Jason CokerOceanside SanctuaryBooks mentioned:Get Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!The United States has had a long and complicated relationship with God.  And what’s really fascinating is the fact that Communist Russia played a significant role in the way many Americans think about that relationship with God today. A lot of folks think about the United States as a Christian nation—both in the United States and around the world.But is it?  And what does it mean to be a Christian nation? And what does the Soviet Union have to do with any of this? And…. As spiritual leaders, what’s a proper relationship between one’s nation—any nation—and the people of God?Chris Staron, host of the Truce podcast, and I discuss these questions in this episode.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Chris Staron is host of the Truce podcast, as well as the director of Bringing Up Bobby and Between the Walls, and the author of Cradle Robber.The Truce podcast is spending a year exploring how the rise of Communist Russia impacted the Christian church in America.Chris summarizes the connection between Communist Russia and American Christianity.When Karl Marx said, “Religion is the opiate of the masses,” he meant something different than what we normally assume.During the 1950’s, the United States made an intentional effort to connect Christianity with American patriotism.The core eight founding fathers of the U.S. were something between deists and Christian.  They believed God was involved in the world, but they did not believe that Jesus was God.The United States is technically an empire.Since it began, it expanded into areas that didn’t belong to it.Today, the U.S. still holds territories that are taxed without representation.Christianity is losing its prophetic distance from power, which makes it difficult for Christianity to speak truth to power.The Trump administration had gone to great lengths to associate Christianity with the administration.Chris Staron raises the question as to whether or not Christianity supports revolution.You can connect with Chris Staron at www.trucepodcast.com.  You can also find Chris Staron on Twitter at @trucepodcast and on Instagram at @trucepodcast.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Christ Staron:Podcast - The Truce PodcastTwitter:  @trucepodcastInstagram: @trucepodcastCradle Robber, by Chris StaronInstructions to leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:Click HERE.Click on the link that says, "Listen on Apple Podcasts."In the window that opens, click the button that says, "Open Link."  This will open iTunes.To the right of the Spiritual Life and Leadership logo, click "Ratings and Reviews."Under the heading, "Customer Reviews," click on the button that says, "WGet Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!AJ Swoboda asks an important question: If, as a pastor, you intentionally broke one of the Ten Commandments what would happen?  Well, you’d probably either lose your job or your position. Or you’d be reprimanded or given a warning. Or, at the very least—maybe for using the Lord’s name in vain—you’d get a few dirty looks.But there is one commandment that, if you were to regularly disobey it, you would probably get a raise.Which commandment?  The commandment to keep the Sabbath.Why is that? That’s what AJ Swoboda and I discuss in this episode of Spiritual Life and Leadership.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:AJ Swoboda is Assistant Professor of Bible and Theology at Northwest Christian University and author of Subversive Sabbath.The pace at which the Western world is living is not only not sustainable, it’s a suicide mission.The Sabbath undermines the empire of anxiety and hurry.The Sabbath is not a practice to improve your life.  It will utterly disrupt everything you want.The kind of life we have grown accustomed to—full of busyness and hurry—is not truly life.The Sabbath originates in the Garden of Eden—before the Law.The importance of the Sabbath is seen in the story of the Hebrew slaves in Egypt.  God wanted to restore to the Hebrews the Edenic rest.The Sabbath is a foretaste of what we will experience forever in Heaven.The ideal of the practice of Sabbath is a 24-hour period of rest.  The early Christians transitioned the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, which they called the Lord’s Day.AJ preached on the Sabbath for three weeks and people left his church.  He realized that if he broke nine of the Ten Commandments he would lose his job, but if he broke the Sabbath he would get a raise.God said, “Remember the Sabbath Day.”  It’s as though God knew this was the one commandment we would be most likely to forget.People who keep the Sabbath are wildly healthier people.When you enter into the Sabbath, the Sabbath begins to enter into you.Sabbath is not merely a day.  It’s a state of being.AJ shares the way he is currently struggling with practicing the Sabbath.  He is finding that God is in the struggle.You can find AJ Swoboda on Twitter at @mrajswoboda.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:AJ SwobodaTwitter:  @mrajswobodaBooks mentioned:Subversive Sabbath, by AJ SwobodaThe Sabbath, by Abraham HeschelEmotionally Healthy Spirituality, by Pete ScazzeroInstructions to leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:Click HERE.Click on the link that says, "Listen on Apple Podcasts."In the window that opens, click the button that says, "Open Link."  This will open iTunes.To the right of the Spiritual Life and Leadership logo, click "Ratings and Reviews."Under the heading, "Customer RGet Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Michael Cooper discusses his book Ephesiology: A Study of the Ephesian Movement, in which he explores the important role of the city of Ephesus in the early Roman Empire and the early church, with a special emphasis on the ways the apostles Paul, John, and Peter all worked to connect the story of Jesus to the Ephesian people in language that made sense to them.This is a timely message for us today as churches are struggling to learn how we are called to connect Christ to our culture.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Michael Cooper is the author of Ephesiology: A Study of the Ephesian Movement and trains church leaders and pastors around the world.Michael shares the story of his faith journey and what led him to write Ephesiology.Nearly half of the New Testament has a connection to the city of Ephesus.  Michael sensed there must be something there to discover.Ephesus was a critical city in the Roman Empire.  It was a crossroad, not only of commerce, but also of philosophy.Heraclitus of Ephesus was a philosopher who wrote On Nature, which was more popular than anything written about Socrates or by Plato or Aristotle.The temple of Artemis in Ephesus had great influence in the city of Ephesus and the in all of Asia Minor.Paul, John, and Peter were missiological theologians.  Their heart was in engaging the culture effectively.The Gospel of John is connected to the city of Ephesus.  John arrived in Ephesus in around 67 A.D.The stories of Jesus in the Gospel of John parallel the culture of Ephesus.  John’s heart was to connect the stories of Jesus with the stories of the Ephesians.When John says, “In the beginning was the logos,” he is using familiar Ephesian language first used by Heraclitus.Like John, Paul, and Peter, we need to be able to connect theological themes to cultures in which we serve.Michael describes how the Western church, in its missionary work, has exported a Western sixteenth-century form of Christianity to other cultures, rather than connecting the stories of Jesus to the stories and forms of those cultures.The early church leadership had a flat organizational structure.The focus on a pastor-centric church did not emerge until later in the church’s development.You can find out more about Michael Cooper and his book at www.ephesiology.com.  You can also e-mail Michael at michael@ephesiology.com.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Michael Cooper:E-mail:  michael@ephesiology.comWebsite:  https://ephesiology.com/Books mentioned:Ephesiology: A Study of the Ephesian Movement, by Michael CooperOn Nature, by HeraclitusBeyond Thingification: Helping Your Church Engage in God's Mission, by Markus Watson— Links to Amazon are affiliate links.  If you mGet Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!What in the world does the Kingdom of God have to do with public policy?  What does the Kingdom of God have to do with shaping governments and institutions?  And how does stewardship fit into all that?That’s what I’m be talking about in this episode with Breon Wells of the Daniel Initiative, a government relations firm that helps underrepresented and underserved populations promote positive change.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Breon Wells is the President and Founder of The Daniel Initiative and author of The K-Gene:  Principles for Attaining Your Destiny.Breon Wells worked in Washington, D.C., for eight years as a Congressional aide.The Daniel Initiative to help people connect with the mandate they have outside the four walls of the church.Breon makes the case for eliminating the divide between secular and sacred.Daniel in the Old Testament lived without a sacred/secular divide.We too often elevate the “spiritual stuff” we do at church without valuing what people do in the rest of their lives.Breon Wells sees his work as prophetic.  The prophet’s job is not to manipulate or control the people, but simply to speak the truth of God.When Breon talks about “Kingdom” he is in part talking about stewardship.  As sons and daughters of God, the King, we have a calling to be good stewards of all that has been entrusted to us.The one quality we need to do God’s Kingdom work is surrender.  Total surrender.You can find Breon Wells on Twitter at @RealDaniel24 and on Facebook by searching for Breon Wells.  And he is on Instagram at @imbreonwells.To find out more about The Daniel Initiative, visit www.thedanielinitiative.org.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Breon WellsTwitter:  @RealDaniel24Facebook:  Breon WellsInstagram:  @imbreonwellsThe Daniel InitiativeWebsite:  https://www.thedanielinitiative.org/Books MentionedThe K-Gene: Principles for Attaining Your Destiny, by Breon WellsPatreonhttps://www.patreon.com/markuswatsonInstruction to leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:Click here: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/spiritual-life-and-leadership/id1435252632Click on the link that says, "Listen on Apple Podcasts."In the window that opens, click the button that says, "Open Link."  This will open iTunes.To the right of the Spiritual Life and Leadership logo, click "Ratings and Reviews."Under the heading, "Customer Reviews," click on the button that says, "Write a Review."Select the number of stars and write your review.Click submit.I'd be so grateful if you did this.  Thank yoGet Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.