Ines Akrap, an experienced web designer specializing in sustainable and energy-efficient websites, joins Chris Adams to discuss the challenges of green coding in frontend development. They explore the nuances of designing energy-efficient websites, common mistakes in optimizing sites for carbon efficiency, and highlight exciting projects in the field of green software. The episode offers practical tips and explores new research horizons in the quest to decarbonize the digital world.

Asim Hussain, Speaker on the Green Software Foundation's newly introduced Impact Framework, discusses the capabilities and objectives of the framework. Project leads join to delve into its applications and potential. The Impact Framework aims to revolutionize the way we assess and mitigate the ecological footprint of software development and use.

This podcast explores the benefits and trade-offs of load shifting, modeling the European electricity grid, 24/7 carbon-free electricity matching, unbundling renewable energy generation, and optimizing energy usage through load shifting.

Anne Faubry and Alexander Dawson from the W3C Community Group discuss the Web Sustainability Guidelines, Content Accessibility Guidelines, and their roles in the group. They talk about the differences between standards and guidelines and what the Web Sustainability Guidelines aim to achieve.

TWiGS host Chris Adams is joined by special guest Tony van Swet from Electricity Maps, to talk about the mapping of the carbon intensity of electricity grid. Tony shares some of the work that Electricity Maps has been doing to make it easier to understand how clean or dirty electricity is around the world, as well as how they’re making this data more accessible and usable to consumers. Join in on this candid conversation discussing the uses of such data and how to access it, as well as Tony talking about carbon intensity, open data, and open source.Learn more about our people:Chris Adams: LinkedIn | GitHub | WebsiteTony van Swet: LinkedIn | WebsiteFind out more about the GSF:The Green Software Foundation Website Sign up to the Green Software Foundation NewsletterNews:How to trace back the origin of electricity (Smoothie Blog Post) | Electricity Maps [06:16]The value of space-time load-shifting flexibility for 24/7 carbon-free electricity procurement | Zenodo (TU Berlin’s Study with Google, using PYPSA) [12:11]Electricity Maps | Client Story: Monta (EV Smart Charging use case) [15:41]GitHub - electricitymaps/electricitymaps-contrib: A real-time visualisation of the CO2 emissions of electricity consumption [21:01]Electricity Maps | Reports - Hourly Residual Mix Methodology [27:13]Resources:Electricity Maps | Data Portal [18:29] Electricity Maps Methodology If you enjoyed this episode then please either:Follow, rate, and review on Apple PodcastsFollow and rate on SpotifyWatch our videos on The Green Software Foundation YouTube Channel!Connect with us on Twitter, Github and LinkedIn!TRANSCRIPT BELOW:Tony van Swet: Looking at Google's use case at their data centers, they have the huge potential to shift their computation based on time or location, so this enables them to manipulate their energy consumption through using our API to increase their consumption when the sun shines and the wind blows. Chris Adams: Hello, and welcome to Environment Variables, brought to you by the Green Software Foundation. On our show, you can expect candid conversations with top experts in their field who have a passion for how to reduce the greenhouse gas emissions of software. I'm your host, Chris Adams. Hello, and welcome to another episode of This Week in Green Software, where we bring you the latest news and updates from the world of sustainable software development. I'm your host, Chris Adams. When we talk about green software, it's often common to talk about energy efficiency, and one of the reasons we care about it at all, is that right now we burn a lot of fossil fuels to generate electricity used in data centers, networks, and end-user devices. But how much of that comes from fossil fuels? And is that changing? This data exists all around the world, and sometimes the data is open, but it's often very messy. In 2017, the Electricity Map project was launched to make it easier to understand how clean or dirty electricity was all around the world. And as the name suggests, it took the form of a map showing the carbon intensity of electricity in as many places around the world as possible. Over the subsequent years, an open source project has grown with hundreds of developers around the world, contributing open web scrapers for data in their parts of the world to make the data more accessible. And earlier this year, the company behind the project released a new open data portal for historical data about how clean electricity was for anyone to use how they wish. So, what does this have to do with green software? Having access to this kind of data makes it much easier to understand the carbon footprint of your software. And this week, we're joined by Tony van Swet from Electricity Maps to talk about carbon intensity, open data, and open source. Hey there, Tony.Tony van Swet: Hi, great to be here.Chris Adams: Okay, Tony, before I get ahead of myself, I think we should give you a bit of space to introduce yourself properly. So can you tell us a little bit about what you do at Electricity Maps? And for folks new to the field, what Electricity Maps does these days, please?Tony van Swet: Yeah, of course. I'm a senior software engineer in the advocacy team at Electricity Maps, and I'll give you a bit of background on what we do at Electricity Maps. So our mission is to organize the world's electricity data to drive the transition to a truly decarbonized electricity system. And as part of the advocacy team, my focus is enabling climate action with transparent insights.We do this with the help of the open source community, building products such as our map visualization and the data portal that we're here to talk about today.Chris Adams: Cool. Thanks for that, Tony. Okay. So if you're new to this podcast, um, my name is Chris Adams, as I mentioned before. Um, I work as the executive director at the Green Web Foundation, a Dutch nonprofit focused on an entirely fossil-free internet. And I also work as the chair of the policy working group inside the Green Software Foundation. And before we dive in, here's just a quick reminder, everything we talk about, we'll link to in the show notes below. So if there's a paper that caught your interest, or there's a story you've heard about, we'll do everything we can to make sure there's a helpful set of links that you can follow up for your own research a little bit later. But back to Tony. Tony, I've got to have to ask you, I know you're working in Denmark, but... I suspect you might not be coming from Denmark in the first place. What does a Kiwi end up doing on the opposite side of the world in Denmark, working for a company like Electricity Maps? I'm sure there's a story behind that.Tony van Swet: Yeah, absolutely. It's definitely a bit of a career shift for me. So I started out about 10 years ago as a truck driver in New Zealand. I was full of self doubt, a bit depressed, struggling to find my place in the world. And to lift myself up out of this, I made it my mission to create technology to combat climate change, and I identified that software was the most powerful way to effect change at scale.And this led me to enroll in a computer science degree. From there, I worked at a few cool startups in New Zealand, eventually looking to integrate electricity maps data when I saw their job postings and applied, and within a few months, I had the job and was waving goodbye to my friends and family to fly across the world to Denmark.It's definitely been full of challenges, but it's been amazing to find a company that really shares my values and aligns so perfectly with my mission.Chris Adams: Wow. So you, when you say you're a truck driver, you're talking about the massive, like 18 wheelers crossing from city to city, right? Something like that.Tony van Swet: Yeah, I actually worked with the HIAB trucks, which have a crane on the back. So I was delivering building supplies around Auckland. It definitely gave me a lot of time to think about the world and take in the kind of sights and sounds of the city.Chris Adams: Wow. Okay. So I think you may be the first former truck driver we've ever had onto this podcast. So yeah. Wow. Thank you for, thank you for coming along. That's also a fun story. I, it's, it's quite nice to hear something like that because, uh, I myself, there's a lot of us who are self taught technologists and to hear a nice story about switching careers you're going, "that's cool, actually." All right, before we digress, let's go back to what we were supposed to be here talking about, which is open data and carbon Intensity. So one thing you mentioned is that we're here to talk about open data and there's some recent work at your end that's made that visible. But before we do that, could we briefly just cover what carbon intensity means at your end, because this is something that isn't obvious to most people.And I remember there being a kind of nice introduction on your website using metaphors like blenders and so on to explain that there's more to electricity to it being just gray versus green, for example. So maybe you could just. provide a bit of a background or how you explain this to people, then we can dive into some of the details about open data.Tony van Swet: Yeah, the blender analogy is really great. We even did a smoothie maps version of our app for April fools, renaming all of the power sources to different fruits and vegetables to illustrate that. So yeah, carbon intensity to us seems like it's relatively straightforward, but if you're not familiar with this idea, it's quite hard to understand.And in this case, we refer to carbon intensity as the CO2 equivalent for a given zone where energy is being consumed. We calculate this by determining the carbon intensity for each generation type and then weigh it according to its proportion of the grid mix. We also then calculate the neighboring zones and account for all the imports and exports of the connected zones to figure out a final number for the carbon intensity where you plug into the wall and consume it.Chris Adams: So basically, if I understand that correctly, you're, what you're saying is you look at all the various parts of the world, and when you say zone, you're referring to maybe a country or a part of a country, depending on how a grid is designed. And then when you're talking about the kinds of generation, you're talking about, say a coal fired power plant or a gas fired power plant or a solar farm or something like this. So these have different levels of CO2 that get emitted for each unit of electricity and you're mixing those together, something like that. Is that correct?Tony van Swet: Yeah, definitely. When we take a look at a coal plant, it's going to emit a lot more carbon than the equivalent solar or wind farm.Chris Adams: Okay, cool. So that talks about the consumption, the how, where the electricity comes from. So maybe we can talk a little bit about, okay, how we experienced that and how, like, when I plug something into the wall, for example, what happens next?Tony van Swet: Yeah, so when we, um, plug into the wall, the energy we consume is, um, considered a mix of all the generation types of the grid you're connected to, um, and it's almost impossible to determine whether an electron comes from a wind farm or a coal plant, even though this will have a significant change in the carbon intensity of the energy you consume.So this is where it's really useful to consider the grid as a giant blender, mixing together all those generation types. And then we can evaluate the true carbon intensity of the energy that you consume.Chris Adams: Okay. If we're going to continue this blender analogy, if you put lots and lots of, say, strawberries in a blender, it's going to look one color. And if you had lots of Kiwi fruit in a blender, it's going to look another color. So that's a little bit like what you expose to people and how that might change over theday.Right. Okay, cool. I believe what we'll do is we'll share a link to the blog post, becauseI found it one of the clearest ways to actually help people get their head around this kind of concept, because it is a bit of a leap when you're first starting to get into this field. So with that, we've got a kind of grounding there. Maybe it's worth talking about this from the point of view of a software engineer. So. Let's say you do know this and you have access to this information. Why is this helpful if you're a software engineer? Like where does this fit into what you might do, for example, or affect your job?Tony van Swet: I think it's super useful as a software engineer to, to have this information and I see a few main categories where you can apply this data, particularly around raising awareness of when to consume energy. We want people to use power when the sun shines and the wind blows. So I think that there are ways to present this information so people can make decisions in their everyday lives.But particularly for me, I find it interesting of automating solutions where we can get carbon-aware products that will shift their consumption or the load of the power consumed based on how sustainable the power is available to them.Chris Adams: Okay. So in this case, this scenario here, you're basically saying, if you have an abundance of power, which is very green, you might kind of tune or change your usage to use more of that, and when the power is particularly dirty, for example, you would try to use less of it so that you're shifting your power through time or possibly through space so that the average carbon intensity might be lower than it otherwise would be.That's what I think you're saying, right?Tony van Swet: Yeah, exactly. So the two main ways to optimize your consumption here is over time or via location. Um, so we know that different grids are much cleaner and, um, some people have the luxury to be able to shift their consumption via location as well.Chris Adams: Okay, cool. So. We've got the kind of general concept for this. Are there any kind of favorite examples that you might point people to of people using this to actually demonstrate their behavior, either at a personal level or an organizational level? Because yeah, having a concrete example would be really helpful for people who are listening to this for the first time.Tony van Swet: Yeah, I think, um, my favorite example is, um, looking at Google's use case at their data centers. They have the huge potential to shift their computation based on time or location. So this enables them to manipulate their energy consumption through using our API to increase their consumption when the sun shines and the wind blows.Chris Adams: Okay, so if I understand it correctly, they're like a client of yours or a customer of yours, they pay for this, and then they use it then to essentially either scale things up or down, depending on the amount of power they might be using, depending on where the data centers are. That's, that's what it sounds like, what you're suggesting there, correct?Tony van Swet: Yeah, definitely. So there is the location aspect and we see a huge variation of the carbon intensity throughout the day. So they also do time-based or scheduled computation based on the carbon intensity available to them.Chris Adams: Cool. Okay. I'm glad you mentioned this because this is something we've had people come on the show before to talk about some of this, but since we have spoken about this, there's actually, uh, some interesting data. Uh, there was a study published with TU Berlin where we're, I'm based in Berlin so we've, I found out about this study and, uh, there's. I found this actually quite a nice example of this to talk about, because a lot of the time, when you see companies talking about this, it's quite hard to actually find meaningful numbers to say, does this actually translate to a saving in carbon? Or does it translate to a saving in even money, for example? And this is the first time I've seen with really detailed information, which has been modeled through this. Um, we'll share a link to this paper, but there's a few kind of headlines that I saw from this. And as I understand it, one thing that Google is doing, for example, they've basically set a commitment to say, "we want to have the average carbon intensity of our power to be this much." So we want to have a certain percentage coming from what they call is like carbon-free or fossil-free sources of generation. And, uh, the study that I saw basically showed that by moving the load around, it reduces the amount of renewable energy, renewable kind of generation that needs to be deployed in the first place for this.So there's an embodied carbon saving in the, in not needing to have a bunch of wind turbines or solar all around the globe. And this study that I see, it was modeling five data centers. So five out of say 14 data centers that are around there. And there were. The savings are pretty good, or actually like measurable.I think with the combination of moving things through time and moving things through space, so moving a compute load to where it was going to be greener, the figures that I saw, some of the headlines were that they're able to reduce the cost of doing this by something in the region of a third of the amount of investment that would need to be possible. And, uh, they also, this is one of the first examples I've seen, which even explains like what the costs on a yearly basis might be for this. And, uh, I think the. There was a couple of scenarios inside this. So there's maybe with zero load shifting or moving, say, about 40 percent of the compute loads that to to different parts of the data centers, where maybe one part of the world might be particularly windy or sunny. When I look at the figures here, I see something in the region of, if you, the savings that are here and we need to, and I will share a link to this, to the actual study for this, so that people can look into this a bit more detail, but with the five data centers modeled in, I think, Germany, in Denmark, in Portugal, in Ireland, and in Finland they were basically able to model savings of around at least 200 million US dollars each year by, in terms of the amount of power that you would need to be, the amount of like generation you would need to match this, to actually hit those targets. Now this is, I think this is actually useful to understand because this actually speaks to the fact that there's economic drivers as well as actually just environmental drivers for this. And this kind of speaks to the wider kind of trend, but. I think it's useful to, for this to be, people to be aware that there's actually something in the public domain to interrogate and look at some of these numbers and see how some of these are modeled and what some of the assumptions are. So we spoke about that. Are there any other use cases that you might point to that may be a little bit more closer to home, for example, or something that you might, that people might experience on a more kind of daily basis or close to themselves, for example?Tony van Swet: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. We have a few customers in the EV smart charging space, and we have also done some research with the Frederiksburg commune here in Denmark about the benefits of smart charging. And we... We were quite impressed to see a 10 to 15 percent reduction in carbon emissions if we have grid-aware smart charging products.So this is plugging your car in the evening and letting it decide when the best time is to charge the car overnight. And even with a small shift in that load, we see a significant reduction in the carbon emissions of the energy consumed. So we were really positive with the results of that. And particularly find it a very nice use case that you put the decision-making power in the hands of the consumers here.So people can choose whether they want to use these products or not.Chris Adams: Okay, cool. All right. If you're in the UK, I believe there's a number of companies that do things like this. Octopus is one of the better known examples of this. And I think under some of the tariffs, there are scenarios where you can actually be paid to charge up a car rather than pay to charge a car or to use a car.So the cost can go negative. Because there's maybe an abundance of power in the grid or like we have here. So that's actually, okay. That's quite useful. So we've covered a couple of use cases now. Maybe it's worth talking a little bit about, little bit about what kind of software supports the use of this data. So I know that at the Green Software Foundation, there's a carbon aware SDK, which is designed to allow people to embed this in some of their software. And where I work at my nonprofit, the Green Web Foundation, we have a library, a Golang library, which is used in a project called Carmado, which is a kind of federated Kubernetes operator. Could you talk a little bit about some of your experiences of what you've seen people use for some of this stuff? For example, maybe you could talk a little bit about some of the pieces of software that you've seen in the wild using some of these tools or using some of this data, for example.Tony van Swet: Yeah, definitely. Firstly, yeah, we're hugely appreciative of the Green Software Foundation and their work to make it easier for developers to use data like this. We do our best to enable developers and hobbyists with our free data through our API. Previously, it was known as CO2 Signal and we've now incorporated that into the Electricity Maps API.And we see lots of amazing tools being built. We see people building dashboards so they can make decisions around which data centers they use. And we do see a big community from Home Assistant also integrating our data. So people can connect their smart homes to become carbon aware and give information on the carbon intensity of their homes.Chris Adams: All right. So we've got some, some stuff like that. And I think we've done a decent job of now establishing what carbon intensity is and how some people might be using it so far. And, uh, we spoke about this idea. There's a, like a free tier, which basically implies that people pay for a data service. But one of the things that we're here to talk about today is open data and this open data portal.And as I understand it, this is your baby, so to speak, right? So maybe you could talk a little bit about, okay. What is this that we, that that's actually gone live because I've got a history with open data, but I suspect it'd be useful for people who are coming to this to understand what this data portal is and why it's useful and what it lets people do, for example.Tony van Swet: Yeah, I was super excited to take the lead on the Data Portal project and really happy to come on the show today to talk about it. Providing free and open data really motivates me. And the Data Portal is a product on our website where anyone can download free carbon intensity data for over 50 countries in hourly, daily, monthly, and yearly for both 2021 and 2022.Chris Adams: Okay. So let me just check if I understand that. So, uh, if people want to start using or experimenting with this data, there's a free tier which you, which folks like yourselves provide. Uh, there's another provider called Watttime that does a, of a free, a free tier. And there's commercial kind of real time feeds from both yourself.And, uh, this part here is this high resolution historical data that has typically been quite hard for people to give access to. And this is openly licensed in the sense that people are free to use this how, however they wish, is that the case or is there any, or maybe we could talk a little bit about the licensing part so people understand how they could use some of this.Tony van Swet: Yes, so we have provided the data free for anyone to use. We particularly look at Carbon Accountants and researchers to use the data. People are welcome to use it under our license, as long as they, if they're building a new product with our data, then they'll be required to open source that new product, but if you're using this data for Carbon Accountant, then you're fine to use it and charge for that accordingly.Chris Adams: Okay, cool. All right. Uh, what we'll do is we'll share a link to the message, to, to the licensing. So people have an understanding for this. So I think when I looked at it was the open database license. So you're able to use it for free in any, in any form, as long as, uh, you're prepared to share under similar terms yourself.That's basically the kind of general approach that I understand for that. And you, you spoke a little bit about there's an intended audience of people who might be carbon accountants or researchers or energy geeks. Can you talk a little bit about how this data gets published in the first place, where it comes from? Because as I understand it, the data can be quite messy to actually put into a kind of API for someone to consume.Tony van Swet: Yeah, yeah. It's, it's a huge challenge to collect all the data. So we have an open source repository full of parsers that collect this data from TSOs and data providers around the world. We have an incredible open source community that helps us to maintain those parsers. We then process this raw data with the kind of smoothie idea that we talked about earlier, run data quality checks on top of the data, and then present it in a way that's easy to navigate and consume.Chris Adams: Okay. So you've used a bit of jargon that I'll need to unpack on there. So you said that you're getting data from a few places and you mentioned a TSO. I'm assuming a TSO is a transmission service operator, like someone who operates part of the grid and they publish information. So that's where some of the data might be coming from.Is that correct?Tony van Swet: Yeah. Yeah. Spot on.Chris Adams: Okay. And one of the challenges is that not every, so maybe I, as I understand it, when I've looked at this data, the data comes out in like grams per kilowatt-hour, what I would typically be paying for, but different places might have different ways of reporting it or different units. Is that the kind of stuff that you, that ends up having to be munged so that there's a kind of clean interface for people to consume?Tony van Swet: Yeah. So the data providers, the TSOs tend to give the data in the format of a energy breakdown. So the various production types, whether it's wind, solar, coal, gas, and we then process this data and apply emission factors. So we add a direct and life cycle emission factors to each of the generation types, and then compute that to give a final carbon intensity number for each zone.Chris Adams: Okay. All right. So if I understand that correctly, you're basically saying we know what this kind of coal power station is likely to be doing for each unit of coal. And because we might have some information about it being an old machine, old one or a younger power station. So you'll have some figures like that, and you essentially run through every single form of generation so that you've got a kind of up-to-date, accurate number for that based on what, what people are doing rather than have to look that up because yeah, it's quite hard to find.So. You've, you've created this data portal. People are able to download it for a set of countries or different parts of the world, and you said that there's data for 2021 and 2022, and this kind of begs the question, what happens next? Is this, is the idea, is the intention to keep having this available on an, on a, on a annual basis so that next year there'll be data for 2023, for example?Tony van Swet: Yeah, absolutely. I listened to your podcast a few weeks ago and I heard you mention that we were looking to raise the bar of energy data available out there. And I really like that term. It's exactly what we want to do. We plan to release new data early 2023. We want to enable carbon accountants to do granular carbon accounting based on our data.And we really hope that providing this data for free gives the industry a push to be more open and transparent around what energy data is available.Chris Adams: Okay, cool. All right. So for the energy nerds here, I, it might be worth just briefly talking about the fact that this currently provides average carbon intensity data. Is that correct? So that's basically the kind of location-based figure. So there, this isn't trying to take into account water or anything to do with market-based figures at present.That's something that might be on the horizon in future. Could you maybe talk a little bit about what things are on the wishlist or what people are asking about What would they like to use in future from here? Because you alluded to some things about, uh, the life cycle intensity of, of, of energy, for example, and there's a whole other set of footprint impacts that people often ask about when they talk about carbon intensity, or even just the environmental impact of the use of electricity in any kind of service.Tony van Swet: Yeah, absolutely. So carbon accountants are most interested in the direct emissions that we provide in this data because they're doing their accounting based on the Scope 2 emissions of a company. Um, we do also provide the life cycle analysis emissions for each zone as well. And this is taking a cradle to grave approach of the emissions.We use the numbers from the IPCC and the,Chris Adams: So IPCC in this case is the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.So that's one thing. And then the UNEC, so I'm guessing it's United Nations.Tony van Swet: United Nations Economic Commission for Europe. Chris Adams: Okay, great. Okay. So, so that's basically the kind of bona fide place where you're taking some of these numbers from. And when you talk about the life cycle emissions there, that means that let's say you're talking about solar or wind, for example. That includes the fact that someone has to make the panels in the first place, and there's going to be some pollution that may be caused there, carbon pollution from making the kind of silicon panels or the turbines.Is that correct? And then the dispose disposal.Tony van Swet: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And even in the case of nuclear, the lifecycle analysis takes into account the storage and disposal of nuclear waste over hundreds of years and applies the costs of that to a carbon equivalent.Chris Adams: Okay, cool. All right. So we've spoken about carbon and we will talk about carbon a bit more, but. It's very, one thing that has come up when people talk about the environmental impact of digital services, there's this term called carbon tunnel vision, where people only look at the one figure, or the one kind of dimension. Is this actually something that, is this on your wishlist, for example, because we know there's a, say, there's a water impact. People talk a lot about machine learning and AI and tools like that, having a water impact, and there's also an impact from the actual generation, for example. Could you maybe talk about a little bit like that?Is that something that you'd like to be heading towards, or is that on the roadmap, for example, in the, in the long run?Tony van Swet: I think we'd love to take a step back and, and have a broader look at the impacts. We're relatively limited with our capacity, so, so we do focus on what we know and what we're experts in. But I would love to see us work with partners to be able to provide our data alongside other sources to take a bigger picture approach to this.Chris Adams: Okay, cool, Tony. So back to carbon then. You spoke a little bit about working with other providers and I realized just as I was doing some research for this recording, this podcast, there was a new paper that came out from Electricity Maps specifically about, this is a, this is a really nerdy, I'm afraid, residual carbon emissions when you look at the environmental impact of electricity and If I understand it, I'm just going to try and run my understanding by you if I can, and then if you can give me an idea about if it's in the right direction, that'd be really helpful.So, as it stands, electricity maps gives you figures for location-based data. So you look at the carbon intensity of the generation all around the world through, and like dams or wind or solar, uh, you'll look at that part, green energy, they often talk about, say, using green energy in some parts of the world where they've purchased essentially certificates to count electricity as green.And this is a kind of like a market-based approach that people use. And this is the basis that various companies use to say, "we're using a hundred percent green energy," for example. Now, if I understand it, this paper that goes into this and basically says, if you're going to look at the carbon intensity of electricity, you need to account where these certificates that people use, where they're actually being used in various parts, because that's going to have an impact if, because if someone is claiming green energy in Ireland, for example, and they're claiming that on the basis of certificates that were traded from Norway, that's going to have an impact on how green the power might look in Norway compared to Ireland, for example. This is what I think some of the research is that was in this paper. Is that directionally correct? Is that moving in the general direction of correctness for this stuff?Tony van Swet: Yeah, absolutely. Yes. I think a lot of companies are buying renewable energy certificates and it has to be a zero-sum game. So the residual mixed paper that our policy team has just released goes into a huge amount of detail into how you calculate the carbon intensity after you have sold those renewable energy certificates for each zone.Chris Adams: And as I understand it, this is something that's on the roadmap that will be looked at is A, a thing that is unsolved right now, but people are looking to figure out how to incorporate into how they work. I know that in the Green Software Foundation, there's a group called Realtime Cloud, who are working to come up with hourly figures to make it possible to provide this kind of reporting. This seems to be one thing that comes up because when I was looking through this paper just last night, actually, there was a few things which are really eye opening for me. So Ireland and Germany are two large markets in Europe, for example. And as I understand it, something like eight times the certificates were consumed as were issued in Ireland, for example.So this basically means as I understand it, that eight times as much green energy is being claimed as is generated in Ireland. So therefore you've got a bunch of generation in somewhere else in the world that needs to be accounted for when you look at the carbon intensity of say, a place like Iceland or Norway, for example, but the same things seem to be in Germany as well. Germany has something like seven times the certificates consumed as were issued in Germany. So that suggests to me that seven times as much green energy has been claimed as is being generated. So if Germany had to have an entirely green grid, you would need something like a sevenfold increase in order for them to be saying, "yes, we're running entirely on green energy." That seems, this is pretty eyeopening. I'm really glad this is actually out there because I haven't seen this data provided in this resolution, particularly in hourly level before.Tony van Swet: Yeah, I think it's really fascinating and definitely highlights why we need the transparency around this market based approach. And it's very early days, so we are hoping to inform the methodology of how we approach this in the future.Chris Adams: Great. Okay. So what we'll do, we'll share a link to that. The things I've just shared are in the first 10 pages of this paper. It's about 80 to 90 pages long, and it's a really impressive tour de force. So Cyril, I'm really impressed with this work. Really mad props for you to actually get this together. Cyril is the policy lead, Electricity Maps, and he's also on some of these working groups, which is why it really caught my eye. So Tony, we've just spoken a little bit about Open data, different ways of measuring the carbon intensity of electricity here for informing your decisions as a software developer. Is there anything that you would like to draw people's attention to? Any projects or things that you are particularly interested or that you're excited about right now?Tony van Swet: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. First off, I'd welcome people to jump on and take a look at the data portal and I would appreciate any feedback around that. And. If anyone would like to contribute to our open-source work, we're also always looking for contributors there. To find out more, jump on our website at electricitymaps.com.Chris Adams: And if I understand it correctly, you folks are still, it's still mostly Python scrapers and a kind of React app that you had before. Is that still the case for people?Tony van Swet: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Python and JavaScript.Chris Adams: Okay. So common languages that people know their way around. Okay. Brilliant. I think that's pretty much it. I've, I've really enjoyed this, actually. Thank you so much for giving us your time and diving into some of the finer points of carbon intensity of electricity and, uh, some of the nerdery there. And, uh, Tony, thank you so much.I've really, I've really enjoyed this. Cheers, mate.Tony van Swet: Yeah. Thank you, Chris. It was really great to be here. I also wanted to say I went digging through our open source repo and found your name on there. So I want to give you a personal thank you for contributing in the past.Chris Adams: Thank you very much. Um, there, I think there'll be more PRs coming in future when I find the time. Okay. Cheers, Tony.Tony van Swet: Amazing. Thank you.Chris Adams: Hey everyone, thanks for listening. Just a reminder to follow Environment Variables on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.And please, do leave a rating and review if you like what we're doing, it helps other people discover the show, and of course, we'd love to have more listeners. To find out more about the Green Software Foundation, please visit greensoftware.foundation. That's greensoftware.foundation in any browser.Thanks again, and see you in the next episode! 

Dr. Daniel Schien from the University of Bristol, UK, joins host Chris Adams to discuss digital sustainability. They cover topics such as streaming's environmental impact, the carbon footprint of digital services, and the importance of reducing carbon emissions in ICT. The conversation explores different approaches to measuring carbon intensity and emphasizes the need for long-term decision-making in green software.

Join host Chris Adams and Tereze Gaile, global Sustainability SME at MuleSoft, as they discuss sustainability tools, resources, and bringing sustainability into organizations. Topics include the Green Code initiative, Developer Carbon Dashboard, generating customer demand for sustainability, change models, measuring organizational emissions, and self-care in the sustainability space.

Arne Tarara, CEO of Green Coding Berlin, joins host Chris Adams to discuss Mojo, a new programming language that achieves a performance boost of 68,000 times over Python. They also talk about progress in Grid Forecasting and Apple's carbon neutral Apple Watch. The Wagtail 5.1 project's greening efforts and AVIF encoding are explored, along with initiatives for energy conservation and expanding the measurement of environmental impact in software lifecycle assessment.

Join Chris Skipper and this week’s guest Namrata Narayan in discussing the upcoming Decarbonize Software 2023 event taking place this November, as well as the role Namrata plays in the GSF. In this episode, they cover the relationships between different member organizations and their role in green software and how they can work toward the same goals in a competitive environment. They touch on how and where this year’s Decarb event will take place and even how it has been set up to reduce its own carbon footprint. Hear about the planned sessions of the day and how to register in this episode of Environment Variables.Learn more about our people:Chris Skipper: LinkedInNamrata Narayan: LinkedInFind out more about the GSF:The Green Software Foundation Website Sign up to the Green Software Foundation NewsletterResources:Decarbonize Software | [29:08]Register for Decarbonize Software 2023 | [34:58]Events:Decarbonize Software 2023If you enjoyed this episode then please either:Follow, rate, and review on Apple PodcastsFollow and rate on SpotifyWatch our videos on The Green Software Foundation YouTube Channel!Connect with us on Twitter, Github and LinkedIn!TRANSCRIPT BELOW:Namrata Narayan: If we see software as an agent for climate action, then we are going to be a lot more successful in articulating why software aligns with sustainability.Chris Adams: Hello, and welcome to Environment Variables, brought to you by the Green Software Foundation. On our show, you can expect candid conversations with top experts in their field who have a passion for how to reduce the greenhouse gas emissions of software.I'm your host, Chris Adams. Chris Skipper: Welcome to this episode of Environment Variables. I'm your host, Chris Skipper. And in this episode, we will be discussing the upcoming Decarbonize Software 2023 event with the Green Software Foundation's Director of Communications and Member Relations, Namrata Narayan. Hello, Namrata, and welcome to Environment Variables.Namrata Narayan: Hi Chris, excited to be here.Chris Skipper: Cool. So before we dive into the meat of this podcast for our listeners, could you please introduce yourself?Namrata Narayan: Sure. So, as you said, my name is Namrata Narayan and I really lead communications and member relations now at the Green Software Foundation. I've been with the foundation for about a year, actually more than a year.Chris Skipper: That's amazing. And Just so people know, I'll say a little bit about myself. You might have heard my voice in this podcast before. I'm Chris. I'm the podcast producer. The other Chris is the host and I'm an absolute noob when it comes to green software. I don't have a software background at all. In fact, I have a musical background and a podcast background.So, but yeah, so other than doing podcasts, I like drinking lots of coffee and at the moment avoiding all the cherry blossoms here in Australia because it is spring and I have a grass allergy. So there you And before we dive in, here's a reminder that everything we talk about will be linked in the show notes below this episode.So before we talk about Decarbonize Software 2023. Let's chat a little bit about yourself. So what does being the Director of Communications and Member Relations in the GSF entail? And what are your responsibilities and goals in this role, Namrata?Namrata Narayan: This is a role that was just recently created. I was doing this work for the last few months and it just made sense to formalize it and make sure that everybody in the community knew who to reach out to and in what capacity. So my role is really focused on building awareness about green software, the work we're doing at the foundation, and nurturing relationships with our member organizations and their people to support knowledge sharing, participation in our projects, and ultimately really support a culture change towards sustainability in tech. So in nutshell, I oversee content marketing, run our social media and weekly newsletter, advise our leadership and working group teams on branding and messaging and identify opportunities to support our members within the context of our projects and initiatives.Chris Skipper: Awesome. And so you've been with the foundation for just over a year. Have you seen, in your role with marketing and promoting the growth of the community, have you seen a change, A, in the number of members that have come into the Green Software Foundation, and B, in the type of members that have come into the foundation?Namrata Narayan: Yeah, that's a good question. I certainly have. I think since I started working with the foundation, we welcomed probably 10 new members at this point. They're all different shapes and sizes, which I love because it really speaks to the fact that this is an issue that everybody should be concerned about, and all types of teams should be working on, it's not just a problem for the big giants, but also for small engineering teams, for consultancies, for service providers.So we've got a really nice variety of members that we're now working with.Chris Skipper: Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. So I think I probably came on around about the same time as you then, because Environment Variables is just over a year old, or maybe I think it's been longer than that because there was a lot of planning for this podcast to actually go ahead and then eventually Asim got around to recording something and sent it to me.But yeah. So, and I'm not as in touch with members, I would say, as yourself probably, but I've definitely seen global membership the Green Software Foundation. For context for listeners, I'm currently in Australia, but Namrata is sitting in Canada and that's just within the people who work for the Green Software Foundation.But we have had people as far away as Japan and I think, I believe even South America attend events. So yeah, it's very much global. I don't need to, I'm preaching to the choir here. I've forgotten how the term is, yeah, but people, people who are listening to this podcast are probably members of the Green Software Foundation.And if you aren't already, you should probably join. How easy is it to join the Green Software Foundation?Namrata Narayan: We've got a few different tiers of membership. So based on what organization, yeah, what they can do, they can either come at the steering committee level or at the general level, there's, we have a standard agreement because we want to treat all of our members equally. And yeah, it's relatively straightforward and as soon as they become members, as soon as everything's signed and sealed, then that's really when they get passed on to me and I support the onboarding process, which we've now made a lot better, there's still definitely room for improvement and we're looking forward to just making it even more seamless, but are able now to provide so much information right off the bat in terms of what we do, how they, how different, how different people within member organizations can get involved, where they can find all the information.I mean, it's all available and ready for the taking.Chris Skipper: Great. I think one of the best inductions into the Green Software Foundation, if you're not familiar with it and you've just stumbled upon this podcast episode in the riches of the amount of podcasts that there are on the internet, is actually the Green Software Foundation newsletter, which is actually one of the sources for a lot of the material that goes on to Environment Variables.The newsletter is fantastic. It's a fantastic resource. Let's talk about more about your green software journey. When did you first encounter green software and how did you come to find yourself at the Green Software Foundation?Namrata Narayan: So it's actually quite a serendipitous story. I've been working in the sustainability and SDG space for over a decade. I've worked on, I've worked with mostly nonprofits, not-for-profits, think tanks, et cetera, that are really focused on meeting one or more of the sustainability development goals. And then a couple of years ago, I decided to start my own practice so that I could work with more organizations as opposed to just one at a time. And soon after I launched my own company I got approached by the Green Software Foundation leading up to their first ever hackathon called Carbon Hack that took place last year, I believe in October, and they were looking for additional support, and I had never even heard of green software. I had some idea of how we could be more sustainable with our sort of, in our digital practice, but the term, the concept, the theory was all quite new to me. So I just found it so interesting. It aligned so much with what I care about that I really didn't give it too much thought. I said, "yes, how can I help?" Um, and that was a really wonderful experience. It was a deep dive into the foundation, um, and all of its inner workings. Um, but it was a love, it was a lovely experience.I fell in love with the team pretty quickly and once CarbonHack wrapped up, they were like, "we would like you to keep working with us."Chris Skipper: Awesome.Namrata Narayan: I was like, "yes, please." I want subversive movement. I want this to be as big and as successful as it can be. I took it on.Chris Skipper: Yeah. Carbon Hack 2022 was a real success. It was great. Uh, I spoke to Adam a little bit about how it would be a source of inspiration for people that are doing talks at Decarbonize Software 2023, because there are some brilliant talks and some brilliant ideas that came from Carbon Hack 2022. And if you're interested, you can go to the Green Software Foundation's YouTube channel and you can view actually all the videos of submissions from that, and they've all been put together in really concise videos, but looking forward to Carbon Hack 2023, the flavor of things that will come, they're community focused, obviously, they're not, it's obviously not in the hackathon style of events.But we'll talk about that a little bit later. So let's talk more about your involvement with the Green Software Foundation in your role as the director of communications and member relations. Has this lead led you to a deeper understanding behind the aims of creating sustainability focused goals within an organization?Obviously, you're very experienced in that already. How would. People go about communicating sustainability focused goals within their organizations, particularly in relation to green software, and what are the first steps that someone would take to achieve this?Namrata Narayan: There's probably a really intelligent way of answering this question, but I'm going to answer it in a slightly unconventional way,which is something I, which I hope is also intelligent, but one of the things I realized a few months ago is if we see software as an agent for climate action, um, then we are going to be a lot more successful in articulating why software aligns with sustainability.And we'll also, I think, be able to make sense of the metrics that we need to use to measure software and its environmental impact. So, I would say the first thing we need to do is really see software as not just a thing, not just tech, but really something that can move the needle in our broader sustainability pursuits. And then it gets really fun to then tell the story once you look at it from that point of view, then you don't get bogged down in the numbers and in things, frankly, people don't remember. You focus on the narrative, you focus on why we're talking about software. It's one of the easier things to fix and get right, right now, when it comes to reducing carbon emissions, when it comes to developing product and creating processes that are more climate conscious, that are more carbon aware, to use some of the language that we use at the foundation. So I would think that's really the first thing we should do, and then everything gets a lot easier after that.Chris Skipper: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's interesting that you mentioned it as an actor, right? Because I think most people that aren't in the software industry, that aren't developers, see software as just, or see using their computer as just this guilt free, it is a guilt free exercise, but they don't see the consequences on the environment, especially when it comes to data and using cloud services, for example, that type of thing, or engaging with services that have a big pull from data centers.Namrata Narayan: Yeah.Chris Skipper: I was shocked just through editing this podcast at the sheer environmental impact of AI, for example.That type of thing is terrifying in my eyes. So I think for everyday people, it can be enlightening to hear that type of communication from organizations like the Green Software Foundation. Yeah, I think more, more people should adopt that within their organizations, taking the approach that, yeah, this is something that's easy to change right now, um, and that can have a dramatic effect on, yeah, on climate change and just generally more, have a knock-on effect towards more sustainable goals as well within organizations.This is a question that kind of sprung to mind, but because of your involvement in the Green Software Foundation, do you find yourself adopting more sustainable changes in your day to day life at all? Like through, in other means, not necessarily software related ones?Namrata Narayan: Yeah, absolutely. So I was aware of, I was aware that there were things we could do digitally to just be a little bit more responsible, but when I started working with the Green Software Foundation, I never thought about how software was built and what made it, what made certain applications and certain interactions with the software we use, so seamless, and so easy, and almost desirable. And ignorance is bliss, I'm no longer ignorant. And, for example, now, when I'm using, oh, this is a great everyday example, tabs.Chris Skipper: Yeah. Namrata Narayan: I am notorious at having a thousand tabs open, at all times. Okay, I have, yeah, I have, like, tabs open for work, I have tabs open for personal, I have tabs open for, like, every facet of my life, and I don't close any, any of them ever, or I used to not close any of them ever, which also tells you what, how my brain works, a bit of things going on here at all times, but now I've gotten a lot more disciplined about closing web pages that I'm not actively working on, closing documents that I'm not actively using. And those are really small sort of actions. I think it's a meaningful one because it tells me in that moment that I'm being really thoughtful about what I'm doing, how much energy I'm consuming, how much energy I'm taking, and what I'm able to give back. So, that's one thing. Also, ever since ChatGPT. Boy, do we love it. But ever since it came about, and I, one of the first articles I read was, I think this was for chapter two or three, I can't keep up now, but for a conversation with 24 prompts, that consumed, what was it? No, a conversation with 50 prompts consumed the equivalent of 24 bottles of water. And I was like, that's ridiculous. I'm not always asking really good questions. At the start, I was just playing around with it. I just wanted to see what it knew and what kind of information it was pulling and what it, and where it was pulling it from. And I quickly learned that ChatGPT just loves to make shit up.Chris Skipper: Yeah, it does.Namrata Narayan: So now I've gotten a lot better. If I do use ChatGPT or any sort of generative AI tool, I'm really careful about what I ask, which means I have to do a little bit of homework beforehand. So it's maybe not as fun. I don't go down this crazy rabbit hole of Q&A with the application, but I try to limit it so that I'm being a little bit more resource sensitive.Chris Skipper: Yeah. I think it's made, made a lot of, yeah. People rethink the way they do things. Like you said, like just having fewer tabs open is, yeah, starting point. And I think that's the, go on, no, sorry.Namrata Narayan: I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interject, I just want to say that's on the personal front, and thenprofessionally, I think I'm in a unique position to then take AHA that I received from the GSF and pay it forward, so now when I work with clients, when I do any sort of consultancy work, when it's around web development and web design, I do talk about green hosting, I do talk about you can actually design your websites in a way that are more, um, environmentally friendly, that require less energy, um, about the images you use, think about how many videos you have, where they're placed, do they load automatically, do you, do they have to be triggered?All of these things make a difference and I'm now building in this knowledge into the conversations that I'm having with people that are actually looking to create websites.Chris Skipper: Yeah.Namrata Narayan: So I'm hoping, I'm hoping I'm helping.Chris Skipper: Yeah, no, absolutely. I think that's the way everyone can help is by paying the information forward. It's interesting that you mentioned, yeah, website design is one of the things the way I think most people, at least people that are in the, in the sort of freelance or creative sphere where they have their own personal website can really make an impact.And I think one of the great examples of that, I don't know whether you've had a look at it, is Branch Magazine.Which Chris Adams helps to run, which is just incredible. I have no idea how the coding works behind it, but yeah, it adapts basically to the way that you, to the power in your area. So when it's clean, you get more kind of images more color on the screen.And when it's a period of dirty energy, you get, how can I put this, binary black and white version of the magazine. And it's still just as informative. You can still get the same amount of information across, which is fantastic. So, and I want to do that for my website as well. Namrata Narayan: Same here. I didn't even, this is the other thing when I started, where I did not even know we could, this was possible already. My mind blown when I started. It was, it's one of the first things Asim showed me when I started working with the foundation. He said, "hey, have you seen this?" Because he obviously thought I would think it's the coolest thing ever.You can do this already, like I just think it just. That, to me, is a smart solution. That, to me, is smart software, is the ability we give it to be responsive to what is actually happening in our environment and in our climate. And the fact that we can do it already, it's not something that we have to work towards. We can do it today. Having to know about it is a really, to me, is a really powerful message and also a really inspiring one.Because we can make significant change today.Chris Skipper: Absolutely. Yeah. And yeah, that's obviously where you come in. And so, and that's obviously where the event that we're going to be talking about, Decarbonize 2023 comes in because it's very important. And so now when this podcast goes out, we're at the stage where the registration for talks unfortunately has already closed.But, and you're probably in the midst of picking who you're going to choose for the final tracks and that kind of thing. So let's just talk about a little bit about the rundown of the event. So it's going to be happening on November the 16th this year. For those who don't know, it's entirely virtual, right?Okay. I'm particularly interested in hearing about the event's objectives related to advancing green software practices and principles. Could you give us a little bit more information about that?Namrata Narayan: Yes, so this year, I think with Decarb generally, it's, we want to really focus on action and solutions, and not so much dwell on, um, I think our community, our audience is more interested in what we can do, and how we can be better, and so that's how we frame a lot of the events, and a lot of the sort of spaces that we organize. So Decarb this year is really about our community and giving our members and individual contributors a platform to inspire and learn from one another. Whether it's green software patterns or the software carbon intensity specification. Our members have actually taken the knowledge and tools that we've shared with them and spent the last several months applying them and learning how to make them work for their systems and within their infrastructure. So we want to really create a space where these stories can be told because they provide a path for others when organizations are able to hear what their peers or their competitors in some cases are doing and how they're addressing a very similar issue. It gives them additional motive and also guidance on how they might be able to do something very similar. And one of the things I'm personally very passionate about doing at the foundation and for the foundation is helping our, encouraging our members to actually see each other as peers. We obviously have members that are competitors in the market, but when working at, when working on software sustainability and working within the Green Software Foundation, we don't want them to treat each other like competitors. We actually want them to operate like they're peers and they're collaborators and they're helping support one another towards a shared future and a shared goal. So that's really the directive and I'm excited about hearing what they have to say and hearing how they've taken the patterns and what they've done with them, how they've applied the SEI to develop base measurements that they didn't have before, and what those calculations have told them about their, there's a lot to be excited about.Chris Skipper: That's awesome. Yeah. I like how you framed it in the fact that it's not a competition. I think one of the unique things about the makeup of the members of the Green Software Foundation is that you do have competitors in the market that have come together to Fight for a greater cause, for want of a better phrase, but yeah, there, there's, there are people from Avanade, and from Linux, and from Accenture, big companies like that, that are part of this organization, as well as people who are just starting out, and people that are from other industries.We had Jo Lindsay Walton, who's a university lecturer who has nothing to, he doesn't, he does have a relationship to green software, but his relationship is a little bit more tenuous compared to other people. And I'm sure he won't mind me saying that, but yeah, so that that's one of the joys of it. And I think people who attend the Decarb 2023 event will see that and will be able to not only benefit from, like you said, learning from their peers, um, and getting some direction, but also just networking in, in general and making new connections through, uh, the event itself, because as with it being online as well, will there be opportunities for people to go into sort of breakaway rooms and chat to each other and that type of thing?Namrata Narayan: We're not going to do breakaway rooms, but we, there is definitely an opportunity to ask questions during the event, and last year we got a plethora of questions, so we are anticipating a fair number of questions to come our way, to come towards our members as well. We also, through GSF Discussions, which is our sort of open forum on GitHub, are going to really be encouraging people to participate, ask questions, answer questions, share insights, connect with one another, and continue the conversation. It's not something that needs to end after the two and a half hours of decarbonized software. We want people to keep taking these questions forward. Go further because chances are the people that are attending the event have answers to questions others are attending, others who are in attendance are asking, so I would say that's part of what we're looking for and looking to create is just an opportunity for that knowledge to be shared and exchanged so that we can move forward and accelerate the pace of change.Chris Skipper: Yeah. I like the idea of people educating one another. I think with that in mind, there's, I think you've, you've probably said this already, you've implied it in the way that you've said it, but it's for everyone. It's not just for the that are super experienced in the green software sphere, but also just if you're a student and you're at university and you're perhaps learning computer science or you're even at school, is there an age limit?Not.Namrata Narayan: I actually have gotten this question a couple times, especially last year, because last year Decarb was the end of the hackathon. This year, obviously, it's its own event. It gets its own time and place to shine, but every individual, regardless of their seniority or role or industry, if they believe they have the power to make a meaningful difference and drive sustainability forward, then they should attend this event. We want students. We want practitioners. We want, whether they're developers, designers, architects, data scientists, analysts, because everybody is part of the matrix. No one is spared and it's everyone's responsibility and I, and similar to a lot of others, I think environmental problems, you know, when it comes to solving carbon emissions, when it comes to reducing software's harm on the environment, we need a real mixed bag of people working on the problem, it can't just be engineers. They need the support of designers. They need the support of project managers. They need communication people. So we really want diverse audience and we believe that's only going to add value and, I would say, support to everyone who really is eager to do something.Chris Skipper: And also, just a reminder to people, it is free as well, don't have to pay anything to come, and it's only two and a half hours long as well, so it's, and it's probably going to be, it's going to be what is going to be completely jam packed with really diverse things. So with that in mind, do you have an idea of the sort of tracks that people are going to be able to attend?What sort of, can you give us an idea of any specific sessions that will be featured at Decarbonized Software 2023?Namrata Narayan: So for this event, we don't have specific tracks. The way. In terms of the format, we will have a series of community driven sessions showcasing stories and demonstrations, which will really show how different practitioners across industry are using tools and resources available through the Green Software Foundation and others in reducing their emissions, improving the way they measure their emissions, how are they making their software more energy efficient or less resource intensive? Sprinkled between those community-led sessions, we are going to have a five-side chat on responsible AI and introduce new initiatives and projects. So, what I'd like to say, you won't be hearing from us, aka the Green Software Foundation very much, but you will hear a lot from your peers and organizations that you're really looking, that you, that inspire you, that you're really engaged with and interested to hear from.Chris Skipper: Yeah. Awesome. Yeah, I mean, we, we already touched a little bit on the idea of, yeah, responsible AI. I know just from looking at the website for Decarb 2023, which is dcarb.greensoftware.foundation. You can go to that website, you can have, that's where you can register as well. But just from looking at the website, you can tell that there, if from this, there's some reference to last year's event, which was huge because that's where the SCI, so the Software Carbon Intensity, Software Carbon Intensity Specification was announced, um, as well as the Linux Foundation, um, uh, training program, the Linux Foundation, let me say that again.Presume there will be a lot of talk about that. We've already mentioned that they're gonna be talk about the way people have used the SCI and there's also going to probably be a lot of talk about the SOGs, the State of Green Software Report as well, which we've featured on this podcast before. And you can also have a look at that website if you go to stateof.greensoftware.foundation and you can find, you can find a heap of topics there. So I presume there will be crossover between the, what we see on the website and what we're going to be hearing at Decarb 2023. So with that in mind, also on the website, there's this statement that I find really profound and it was a statement that I think is, probably sums up a lot about what the Green Software Foundation is about, which is having software at the forefront of climate action. Can you delve into how Decarbonize Software 2023 plans to highlight the role of software in achieving climate goals, particularly in relation to the upcoming COP28?Which I think will be happening in November.Namrata Narayan: Yeah, it starts at the, it starts at the end of November and goes into December. So at COP28, for anyone who might be unfamiliar, global leaders will discuss how to reduce global greenhouse gas emissions. Their aim is by 43 percent by 2030. This is a pretty ambitious and admirable goal. In my time working with the GSF, I've learned that nothing really happens without software anymore and it makes a lot of sense when you really think about it. I can't even cook a meal without an app, but it's a perspective in terms of what my life looks like. Advancements in technology and the way we live, I think, have flipped the script on engineers, they're no longer necessarily being told what to build and do, they're being asked how it can be done, and how it can be built better, and any organization that isn't looking to their engineering population as sustainability problem solvers, we really hope Decarbonize Software changes their mind, because it's this community of software practitioners that are going to be able to have a really meaningful and tangible impact on what tech companies are actually doing about their environmental footprint. If they're a tech company, the first thing they should care about is what is their tech doing. And I really do feel that software practitioners are now going to be seen as real critical players to solving sustainability problems. And I think that's new. I don't think that's always been the case.Chris Skipper: No, it hasn't always been the case. You can tell just by the existence of the Green Software Foundation and how young it is, it hasn't always been the case. And just from the people that have come on the podcast to talk about green software, they will talk about it in, a lot of the, sorry, a lot of the terms and a lot of the, the phrases that are being used around green software are so new.And that's just the nature of, I think the nature of the industry. But like you said, yeah, software developers are going to have to be at the forefront of this battle against climate change for most tech companies, if not all of them. So yeah. Namrata Narayan: And it might be a challenge for some. I think, I don't want to speak out of place, but there's, there are probably a good number who haven't been perceived that way. They haven't been trained to see themselves in that sort of position. Hopefully the next generation will. And so it's a bit of a, it's a bit of a culture shock for them too, right? "Oh, what do you mean? What do you mean I'm, reducing carbon emissions in the way that I code, what are you talking about?" But the, the fact of the matter is it's something that we can, like I said, do today. It's possible we have the knowledge, we have, we have the SDK, we have these tools to make it possible and work for different types of applications across different types of domains.So I, I really do think that software is where everybody's focus is, will be in the, in the next few years.Chris Skipper: Yeah, absolutely. And Decarbonize Software 2023 is the event that you should come to if you want to learn more about it. And in particular, because like we said, this is such a new term, the Green Software Foundation is just over two years old, I believe, and so if you do attend this event, and if you do want to join the Green Software Foundation, or just be a part of the community and, and just involve yourself in green software in any way, you are at the forefront of this movement.This is the start of it. And it's exciting. And it's something that we can all get behind, I think. So everyone should be able to attend this event to learn more. And my final question to you on this is how do they go about doing that?Namrata Narayan: Yeah, so everyone can register online. We've created a short link so you have to type less, which is grnsft.org/decarb. We'll share the link in the notes as Chris mentioned. That's it. That's all you have to do. You just have to register and we'll push any and all information that's important to your experience to you as soon as we, as soon as you register and you have your information.Chris Skipper: Yeah, so it seems like it's going to be a really exciting event. You're all set. Obviously, it's not too far away now. It's probably a month away from when this episode goes out. So before we head off, we've come to the end of our time now. And before we head off, we have a closing question that we normally ask our guests on Environment Variables.And so with that statement that I talked about on the website in mind, I want you to know, as the Director of Communications and Member Relations, at the GSF, you're obviously very in touch with the message of the Green Software Foundation and promoting the goals of it, as you've spoken at length about, if there's one tagline or catchphrase you could use to convince people to join the GSF, what would it be and why?Namrata Narayan: So I think I'd go with, let's say, Green Software Foundation: Where Software Meets Sustainability. And I think it's short and sweet. It reinforces our commitment to align these two domains, which are often approached separately, it's inclusive, it doesn't leave anybody out. I'd like to think that it's evergreen.I don't think it's something that we're going to necessarily solve in our lifetime, but it forces us to keep working on it. It doesn't have an end date. It has to, we have to continuously ensure software is meeting sustainability. And I think it's easy to remember.Chris Skipper: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. I like how you used evergreen. No pun intended there.Namrata Narayan: No pun intended. Chris Skipper: Cool. All right. So we've come to the end of this podcast episode. All that's left for me to say is to say, thank you so much, Namrata. This was really great. I really enjoyed this chat. Thanks for your contribution and we really appreciate you coming on in Environment Variables.Namrata Narayan: Thanks Chris, it was great fun.Chris Skipper: Awesome. So that's all for this episode of Environment Variables. All the resources for this episode are in the show description below, and you can visit podcast.greensoftware.foundation to listen to more episodes of Environment Variables. See you all in the next episode. Bye for now.Chris Adams: Hey everyone, thanks for listening. Just a reminder to follow Environment Variables on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.And please, do leave a rating and review if you like what we're doing, it helps other people discover the show, and of course, we'd love to have more listeners. To find out more about the Green Software Foundation, please visit greensoftware.foundation. That's greensoftware.foundation in any browser.Thanks again, and see you in the next episode! 

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