Environment Variables

In this episode of Environment Variables, host Chris Adams explores the theme of Community Publishing and Greening Software, by talking to Branch Magazine’s Hannah Smith and Marketa Benisek. They discuss community publishing and the lessons learned from producing Branch Magazine, which supports sustainable digital practices and includes diverse voices from the Green Software Foundation. The discussion covers the complexities of adopting digital sustainability and how Branch Magazine, through its innovative, carbon-aware design, has been a platform for expressing these nuanced themes in sustainability and how finding beauty in the imperfect might just be the answer to all your problems! Learn more about our people:Chris Adams: LinkedIn | GitHub | WebsiteHannah Smith: LinkedInMarketa Benisek: LinkedInFind out more about the GSF:The Green Software Foundation Website Sign up to the Green Software Foundation NewsletterTopics:Branch Magazine | climatetech.action [1:50]Designing a Grid Aware Website [13:09]Content Trends [20:38]Sneak Peek Preview of issue 8 [27:12]Resources:Grid Intensity Library | Green Web Foundation [02:29]Green Web Foundation [3:30]Wholegrain Digital [4:04]WebsiteCarbon.com [4:07]Solarpunk [24:12]The Wabi Sabi Web - Branch | Tom Greenwood [28:49] Embracing friction: A conversation with Luna Maurer and Roel Wouters - Branch | Marketa Benisek [30:08] Talking it out: Restoring information ecosystems through authentic human connections - Branch | Bárbara Paes and Olivia Johnson [31:26] Echoes of electronic waste - Branch | Joanna Murzyn [31:37]Connectivity, infrastructure and the defence of the Amazon's socio-biodiverse ecosystems - Branch | Hemanuel Veras [31:41]One Movement, Four Wings: Connecting climate strategies - Branch | Melissa Hsiung [32:47]  Ministry of Imagination - Branch | Rob Hopkins [34:58]Issue 8 community-assembled playlist - Branch [36:30]Curiously Green, the green web newsletter - Wholegrain Digital [39:59]co2.js | The Green Web Foundation [40:44] If you enjoyed this episode then please either:Follow, rate, and review on Apple PodcastsFollow and rate on SpotifyWatch our videos on The Green Software Foundation YouTube Channel!Connect with us on Twitter, Github and LinkedIn!TRANSCRIPT BELOW:Marketa Benisek: Perfection is essentially the enemy of progress. So it doesn't really matter if something is imperfect, but we can build on it. That's when Hannah came up with the idea that actually we could collaborate on the next issue of Branch Magazine, and this could be the theme.Chris Adams: Hello, and welcome to Environment Variables, brought to you by the Green Software Foundation. In each episode, we discuss the latest news and events surrounding green software. On our show, you can expect candid conversations with top experts in their field who have a passion for how to reduce the greenhouse gas emissions of software.I'm your host, Chris Adams.Hello, and welcome to another episode of Environment Variables, where we bring you the latest news and updates from the world of sustainable software development. I'm your host, Chris Adams. The world of green software and digital sustainability has come a long way since the Green Software Foundation was created three years ago.The Software Carbon Intensity Specification is now an international standard. All of the large hyperscale cloud providers in North American Europe now publish guidance about incorporating sustainability principles into building on their platforms, and we're also seeing unprecedented policy interest in both understanding and managing the emissions associated with digital services in general.There's more to sustainability than just making our software greener, though. If we want a truly sustainable industry, we also need new visions of how we relate to technology and the role it might play in a more positive, regenerative future. One such vision. Is that laid out by digital magazine Branch, a publication featuring writing from many of the active feature figures in the Green Software Foundation and one of the first ever websites to pioneer a carbon aware design that changed in response to the carbon intensity of the underlying electricity grid that its servers ran on.Originally from climateaction.tech and published by the Green Web Foundation, Branch is a twice yearly publication, and at the time of this podcast being recorded. It's now into its eighth issue. Now, in the interest of disclosure, I should probably share that I've written for Branch a few times and that I worked on the grid intensity library, the JavaScript library, that the site relies on for its carbon aware design features.I'll try my best to keep my bias out of this episode, but it's worth acknowledging that before the GSF, The Green Software Foundation was as prominent as it is now, is one of the better known non commercial places to read about the intersection of software and sustainability and see how folks are doing it.I'm joined today by two of the contributing editors, Hannah Smith and Maketa Benesek, to talk about community publishing as a tool for change and the lessons learned publishing a magazine that tries to walk the walk as well as talk the talk on sustainability in the digital realm. So, Han, Marketa, thanks so much for joining me today.Can I give you the floor to introduce yourself and what you do?Hannah Smith: Great. Well, thanks, Chris. Thanks for the introduction. And yes, you are definitely a little biased in talking about Branch. I think that's fair to say, but anyway, I'll introduce myself. So hi, my name is Hannah Smith. I am director of operations at Green Web Foundation, where some of you might know, I work alongside Chris and I'm very excited to be here.I was a WordPress developer for a long time. I also run a meetup community called Green Tech Southwest. And quite recently, sort of over last summer, I was very involved in a project looking at grid aware computing as a, as an alternative or an improvement on carbon aware computing. So, Marketa, I guess over to you.Marketa Benisek: Thank you. Thanks for the intro, Chris. So, my name is Marketa Benisek. I work as Digital Sustainability Lead at Wholegrain Digital, the authors and kind of creators of WebsiteCarbon.com, the online kind of first and original online carbon calculator. And I'm really, really excited to be here. And I'm super excited about this project. I also did a climate reality training with Al Gore, uh, during the pandemic and I'm a carbon literate professional. So that means that I essentially, I'm just really passionate about explaining people kind of the essentials and the basics of the climate science so that they understand the urgency of why we need to take action.Chris Adams: Thank you for that, Marketa. Now, before we dive into the world of Branch and community publishing and all that, we normally ask where our guests are calling from to get a bit of background color, really. Han, can you just tell me a little bit about where you're joining me from? And then if I hand over to Marketa after that.Hannah Smith: Yeah, so thanks Chris. I am dialing in from the temperate rainforest in Exmoor National Park, which is over in the southwest of England in the county of Somerset. And today, as I look out the window, all the trees are coming into leaf and it is a truly, truly glorious view.Chris Adams: Wow, I spent 30 UK and I'd never realized there were rainforests. So you said temperate rainforest as opposed to a tropical rainforest. Is that how it works?Hannah Smith: Absolutely. Yeah. I didn't know that temperate rainforest was a thing until I moved here either, but there is this growing movement to reestablish these, these ecosystems or, or just make people aware of them. It's basically a forest, which is on the coast and pretty wet, and that's how you end up with a temperate rainforest.It sounds, it sounds exciting, but you know, you need good wellies and a good Mac and not to be afraid to get a bit muddy if you live here. Yeah.Chris Adams: Marketa, over to you as well.Marketa Benisek: I am joining this call from Prague in Czech Republic. That's where I'm based currently. I relocated here a couple of years ago from very busy London after having a kid. So yeah, it's just, it was a beautiful spring weather just about a week ago. And now we're back to snowy weather. So we got all of those like winter jumpers. And yeah, we'll see what happens.Chris Adams: Wow. Okay. I did not know that you were in Prague actually, Marketa. I thought you were still in London. Okay. I should probably go myself and also introduce myself because I realize I've just done this massive introduction without saying who I am, what I'm here for. So folks, if you are listening to this podcast for the first time, my name is Chris Adams.I am the executive director of the Green Web Foundation. I'm also one of the organizers of Climate Action Tech, which is a online community full of essentially climate aware techies, I suppose. I also worked as one of the policy chairs in the Green Software Foundation, and that's partly how I know Han.As Han mentioned, I did work on the Branch Magazine, a few years ago, basically. So I have some kind of background there. I'm calling from Berlin where today it's been sunny and hailing at the same time. So that's my kind of contribution to the meteorological diversity, I suppose. All right. Okay. So I think we're all sitting comfortably and we've got a good idea of where we're all kind of calling from today.Maybe we should talk a little bit about Branch. So I understand there was a new theme for this that the two of you wanted to kind of talk about because it's, we've had different themes for publishing different issues, but the theme this time was I think finding beauty in the imperfect. And I believe this was on, this is a kind of reference to some of the struggles we see when people start trying to adopt digital sustainability principles or kind of working around that.Would either of you maybe just explain a little bit about how this came about or maybe what drove you to kind of come to it from this point of view, actually?Marketa Benisek: Yeah, absolutely. So I should probably start by saying that Hannah was one of the first to I met a lot of female voices that I came across shortly after I met Vinita Greenwood, the co founder of Wholegrain Digital. And she was one of the first female voices that I've heard talking about digital sustainability and digital carbon emissions and all that. And I introduced myself, this is it must be about six years ago, seven years ago, something like that. And then we kind of stayed in touch ever since, you know, we collaborated over several projects and we just stayed in touch and connected about once a month over a call just to catch up and talk about what's new in the digital sustainability world, so to speak. And about six months ago, we got together on a call. We were both pretty upset about some recent articles and mentions of the different tools and, and projects that people criticize for their imperfections. And it felt, it wasn't really the criticism itself that was so upsetting, it was mostly the fact that they made it sound as if there's just no point in tryingif it's not perfect in the first place. And so we got to talk over this and, and about this, and we just realized that this is something that we feel really, really strongly and passionately about, and we wanted to address it and kind of just voice out that, you know, perfection is essentially the enemy of progress. So it doesn't really matter if something is imperfect, but we can build on it. That's when Hannah came up with the idea that actually we could collaborate on the next issue of Branch Magazine. And this could be the theme that would kind of give the platform to lots of different voices in this field and to people from CAT community on like, what can actually be done and what is already happening in this space that is imperfect, but it's still very much meaningful.Chris Adams: Okay. So thank you for that, Marketa. That does provide some of the context that makes it a bit easier to understand this theme. Han, maybe I could maybe hand this over to you to talk a little bit about why you chose to explore this theme using a magazine like Branch, for example, rather than trying to get a white paper written or something like that, perhaps.Hannah Smith: Thanks, Chris. Yeah. So, so as Marketa has said, we kind of had these conversations and we kind of realized that we felt that this narrative, which can be quite dominant in the tech industry of, you know, of always having perfection in your data or, you know, always striving for everything to be a hundred percent accurate.We kind of felt that we had a lot to say on it, and we also thought that there'd be a lot of members within the climateaction.tech community that would have a lot to say on it too. Perhaps they were in a place of work where they were having to overcome some of these, you know, some of this pushback from their own team, or perhaps they're in, you know.Developer communities that were maybe not embracing these ideas again, for these reasons. So we kind of realized that Branch would make an absolutely amazing place to bring loads of different voices. From across the whole tech industry together into one place. And, you know, Branch is very much founded on this idea of bringing together different voices and perspectives from even different industries, not necessarily just the tech sector.You know, we know that there's people working in research or people who work with tech. You have an awful lot to say here too. So Marketa and I were like, yeah, okay. Let's get the CAT community involved in this. Let's see if people want to tell stories from their places of work, or maybe there are founders of companies that want to talk about how they're embracing things in different ways.Maybe there are some people who are, you know, uh, practitioners, maybe freelancers, maybe independents. Maybe people from research organizations. Let's get all of these voices together, let's get all of these perspectives together, and let's kind of create, we've been talking about it as a bit of a tapestry, a kind of tapestry of views that start to answer these questions or start to explore what it actually means in practice when you're working in digital sustainability to find beauty in the imperfect.So what is beautiful, and what is imperfect? So yeah, we've kind of thought Branch just lent itself to be the perfect place for people to do that. And again, the awesome thing about Branch is it's a non profit magazine, as you well know, Chris. So that awesome, we thought made it easier for people that were perhaps within organizations that maybe don't have a platform to speak within their own organization.They could come and use Branch. And be able to talk about things in an open way that perhaps their organization might not be so cool with them publishing on their own blog. So it feels like a great opportunity to bring a really diverse, in the biggest possible way, set of voices together, I think.Chris Adams: Okay. I see. So you've got this idea of diversity. And one of the key things is that it's not just one person, you know, the internet isn't just for like developers, for example, there's other, there's users and there's other people who are affected by it that it's worth hearing some of their voices involved in it as well.Okay. Thank you, Hannah. That does make it a little bit clearer, actually, since you spoke a little bit about Branch and actually the design part of it, maybe we could just switch gears for a second and talk a little bit about some of the realities of trying to make some of this, because one thing we mentioned before is that Branch was one of the early magazines that essentially changed this design based on how green the grid is, basically.And I figured maybe we could just provide, have a bit of kind of catnip for the nerds talking about how that was actually done. So maybe you could talk a little bit about, okay, yeah, that's a cool idea, but. There's all these considerations from a production point of view. So maybe are there any kind of particular challenges you found or things we would have bear in mind if they're going to take their first steps into designing, say, kind of a grid aware or carbon aware design like this?Hannah Smith: Yeah. Well, thanks, Chris. So Marketa, I might pick that question up if that's okay with you. Cause IMarketa Benisek: Yeah, please do.Hannah Smith: yeah, so, I mean, Chris, I know you were sort of involved in building the first issue of Branch. I came on board to help out on the second issue and beyond. And so I think it's worth saying that first of all, the way that Branch responds to the grid is that it provides a different experience based on what's going on, on the grid on a certain day.So if you've got loads of fossil fuels on the grid, on a particular day, you don't see the images by default. So you have to actually opt in to see the images. If you've got a nice windy, sunny day, maybe then the intensity will be low. And so you will see the images. And then you've got this middle, middle scenario there, where the images are converted into a really fuzzy kind of web format so that you can see the images, but there's a clear and obvious degradation.The thing I really, really like about Branch and the way it does that is that it's, it's giving you a different, um, experience based on the renewables that day and in that place. So it's, it's more responding to demand or, or supply really of what's on the grid. And I think that's quite clever. So rather than sort of doing stuff like shifting around location or time based. I find that that is actually a very, very visceral way that people can understand what's going on in terms of the supply coming on to the, onto the grid. Actually, I find it throughout Marketa and I putting all the articles up for issue eight, I found it brilliant. I've now know exactly what's going on on the given day as to what the renewables are, because the background color of Branch tells me, which is super, super handy.But actually we did notice just last week as we were kind of finalizing some of the images that well I don't know if it's a new level of carbon intensity or if it's a just a level of carbon intensity we don't get very often in the UK. But I, to my absolute shock and horror, went on Branch and it was grey and I was like, oh, That's not a color Branch.Chris Adams: What's going on here?Hannah Smith: That's not supposed to happen. What's going on here? And we looked into it and realized that actually the grid was running at very low carbon intensity that day, which kind of made sense because when I looked out the window, it was super windy, yeah, super sunny day and we were like, all right, cool. So I guess like, that's quite a fun bug in a way, or a fun thing is that, you know, I guess our expectations over different carbon intensity levels can change a little bit, or, uh, you know, if you're connecting through to an API, something, something suddenly shifts and, and you get a bit of a surprise.So that's definitely a bit of fun to be aware of on the production side of things.Chris Adams: I remember you, I remember you talking about some of this actually, like, like, you thought, oh, the grid's never going to get that green, right? And then you see it changing, like, oh, Christ, you need to update the design because of this. Yeah. This idea of like having different thresholds was, you know, Yeah, that was, that was a new thing because I remember you asking me and like, it took scratching my head a little while because it doesn't seem to be anything wrong with the code.And then you realize, oh, the API that tells us the carbon intensity must then have started to introduce some new levels that we need to design for. So yeah, that's, uh, that, that, that was, that was actually kind of a fun thing from this. Okay, cool,Hannah Smith: Happy days though. I mean, I'm happy that we were running on very, very low intensity on those days of, you know, Hey, that's what we're here for, right?Chris Adams: Yeah, that was, I guess, the technology being somewhat more enthusiastic than the design five years ago, or four years ago, perhaps. So that's like one of the examples that we need to take into account. And maybe one thing that I'm glad you mentioned the idea that when you first visit this, you don't see the images.One of the things that I think is There was some fair amount of focus, which is often overlooked is the accessibility of this, like deliberately trying to make sure that if someone can't see an image, you at least have some way to make it perceivable to people, for example, maybe we could talk a little bit about some of that thing, because people tend not to, this may be a thing that is overlooked in publishing, that's actually, I guess, part of the web, maybe, and maybe you could expand a little bit on the accessibility aspects before we talk about some of the actual content of Branch, perhaps, Han.Hannah Smith: Yeah, sure. So I mean, something, when you're uploading content to Branch, you realize just how important alt text is on your images. Because that's one of the key features of Branch is that if you have a very carbon intensive day, so e. g. there's lots of fossil fuels, bad, that's not what we want, you don't see the images.And what you see instead is the alt text and a caption, which describes it to you. You do see kind of, you see a grayed out placeholder of the image. So you're very aware that there is an image there, but you can click show image and you can see the image and opt for that to get downloaded to your machine and opt for for that, that additional action to happen. So accessibility is a really interesting aspect here as well.Chris Adams: Yeah. Cause I guess on one level you're, that's kind of like forcing how other people might perceive the web, if it might be, might be partially cited or something. It's kind of some of the decisions there to kind of foreground the fact that the way that you experience a digital service may not be the only way it can be experienced, for example.Hannah Smith: Yeah, it's, it's interesting. I love the way that Branch does that. It plays with almost messing with your perception of what a website is and can be, and I, I mean, that was always one of the key ideas of it was to imagine different ways that a website could be, it doesn't always have to be the same, exactly the same.It should be responding to different things. And also remind you that people interact with these things in different ways as well. As you rightly said there, Chris, you know, not everybody will see the images all the time.Marketa Benisek: It's a great preview into someone else's world and how they see the world, how they see the digital world as well. I think this, this often doesn't really get enough attention. That not everybody sees the images in perfect high res, you know, some people might see it blurry, some people might see it, I don't know, pixelated, whatever, you know, so paying attention to these alt texts and, and just a different setting for people who might have different needs and different kind of health conditions is really important and the entire web. should be built that way. I mean, that's why we have this technology in the first place. So the fact that Branch has that is really important, I think. And I'm just, that's just one more reason why I love it so much.Chris Adams: So, Marketa, you're right, actually, there is this notion about, I guess, the web being something that should be accessible for everyone, because, like, the internet is for everyone like this. Maybe we could talk a little bit about, actually, some of the high level themes in the content for this issue. Like, are there any trends that you felt really deserved attention or could do with more people writing more openly about, for example?Marketa Benisek: Yeah, absolutely. I think that, first of all, you know, the, the theme, we were pretty set on, on the theme, Hannah and I, you know, since. The very early days, finding beauty in the imperfect. I guess as two women working in tech, you know, it may come across, it may have come across slightly more poetic or feminine to some. And I think that some people, there was a need to kind of explain what we really mean by this. So we spent quite a bit of time on this explanation, you know, through the open call page, just to really clarify what this means. And obviously it was an invitation for everyone, not just for women in tech. I just wanted to make that really clear, but yeah, I, I mean, after we set the open call page on Branch, we received a really great number of submissions that we carefully read through and selected the best ones that really spoke to the theme and then we narrowed it down to I think seven or even eight categories and we got super excited and obviously we wanted to involve everything and you know, we wanted to give a platform to everyone who even reached out and things like that. But then we got a bit more realistic and we realized that actually, you know, we really do need to narrow it down. So we narrowed it down to four key categories that kind of spoke really strongly to just new ways of building just and sustainable web that is also a humane web. And so now we have four categories that, that they are meaningful connection, kind of solar punk and imagining different future, new ways of looking at the design philosophy and how we might be able to build the web.You know, that is not perfect or not in that kind of usual perfect way, seamlessly perfect. And then finally, obviously the perfection itself and just not letting it be the enemy of progress. So those are kind of the four key categories that were really, really, important for the theme, I think. And yeah, I just really can't wait to share that with the world.Chris Adams: Okay, and that's presumably the logical grouping inside the content. So someone, when they go to the magazine, they'll see it grouped like that. So they might look at dive into one, for example, and then the other, right?Marketa Benisek: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, obviously this wasn't a straightforward process. You know, we spent a long time kind of going through all of those images, grouping them together. But shortly after we received all of the submissions, we could see patterns in some of these, you know, submissions and we obviously group them together and kind of organically these four key themes.Chris Adams: Ended up being the logical group for this.Marketa Benisek: And yes, ended up being the four categories, yeah.Hannah Smith: And I think I might just add a little bit onto that as well, because the, the whole idea of this theme was that we wanted to explore the subjective ways that people Think about finding beauty in the imperfect in digital sustainability, whatever lens they're looking through, be that developing carbon calculation methodologies, be that designing things, being that the way that people use the internet, being that even questioning, should the internet even be a thing in the first place?So we did throw it very, very wide and then as Marketa explained, you know, we, we grouped things. And then what we kind of discovered, the thing that makes me very happy because I'm quite nerdy and I do like everything to be neat and tidy, is that those four categories then yes, you're laughing because you know this is true because we then noticed that those four categories almost become a journey in themselves.So, as Marketa said, that the first category we saw was around meaningful connection. And I guess the first thing that you ask yourself when you're Looking for beauty in the perfection when you're designing something is, why? What are we designing this for? And we realized that actually, at the very, very heart of it, what the internet should be about is creating meaningful connection.Not just connection for connection's sake, but meaningful connection that's humane, that is just, and that is sustainable. And we kind of really noticed that theme. And then we kind of thought, alright, so you know what you want, So the next thing that happens is, well, in an ideal world, what does that success look like?And that's where that imagination piece comes in, these ideas of Solarpunk. And if anyone's listening and hasn't heard of Solarpunk before, you're in for such a treat because it's just such a cool movement. It's all this idea of kind of imagining regenerative, renewable futures. So you kind of, once you know what you mean, you know what you want, EG, a meaningful connection, you start to imagine what it looks like.And we had so much fun with all the pieces that imagined the future, like there's some absolutely amazing, beautiful, yet imperfect stuff in there. And then once you're imagining things, what we realized is the next step on your journey is the logical question is, well, how are we going to make it? And we realized then that we had this grouping all around design philosophy of people talking about all these different ways that they want to make this stuff, that they want to make things on the internet, that they want to design things on the internet.And then we came to this fourth category and I wouldn't say it's the last one because the other thing we realized is that everything is just so deeply interconnected. And I think you realize that when you're doing anything in sustainability is that connections that are everywhere. It's never finished and it's never linear.But we noticed this last question was around, well, let's talk about some of the things that get in the way of us designing our things or building our things. And we realized, well, perfectionism is this key thing that seems to come up and up again and is so often used as a kind of defensive measure for why we shouldn't bother.We kind of realised that that was almost the last stop on the journey,in a way, probably before you go around again. So the categories do stand in isolation from one another, but can also be read and taken on a journey as well for kind of completing a whole process here as well. So when, when that kind of made itself obvious, I was very happy cause that, that felt very neat, very neat and tidy, so-Marketa Benisek: Yeah that was a beautiful day that oneHannah Smith: It was a beautiful day, but obviously there's imperfections there too, even in that.Chris Adams: I see. Okay. Thanks. Maybe I'll just bring, hand over to Marketa. So we've spoken a little bit about themes and like the kind of, the motivation for this. Maybe we could just move to like some of the concrete pieces, for example, if we would have like a preview of some of the things you'd like to draw attention to, or kind of give a sneak peek, sneak preview of this.Are there any articles you particularly enjoyed or you found a lot of, that you, would like to draw people's attention to, for example, if I hand over to you, Marketa, first, and then Han, I'll give you a chance to kind of name some of your favorite children, as it were, or favorite babies, or whatever, whatever phrase you want to use for this, then we can see what we've got there.So, Marketa, you first, if I can.Marketa Benisek: Yeah sure so I guess throughout this process, what I enjoyed the most was seeing these kind of similar patterns occurring in different places around the world. That was really just fascinating to, to witness and to be a part of, because, you know, all of these authors are from different parts of the world. They are talking about different problems, different solutions. And yet they were using very similar language. So for example, we mentioned perfectionism as kind of one of the obstacles to building a more just and sustainable and humane web. And interestingly, several people, at least my authors, you know, the authors from my group, they kept mentioning friction and the need of friction.Somehow it seems like friction and imperfection is what makes any experience more human. And the web and trying to make it kind of perfect and frictionless and seamless and everything like that, that goes against that human experience, that humanness in the first place, which was really interesting, kind of realization out of this whole process, this project. Some of the articles that I really love, obviously, there is Tom Greenwood's article, the co founder of Wholegrain, who talks about the Wabi Sabi Web. And I just really love how Tom thinks and how he articulates his, his thoughts. It's just, it's kind of like a beautiful journey through his mind. And so Tom picked a Japanese philosophy called wabi sabi, and he used several examples of how we might use it to build a more humane web.So wabi sabi is a concept where you kind of accept the imperfection and kind of the fact that all things All of these are beautiful because they reflect the time and the experiences that they have been through, but we don't necessarily see that on the web. And maybe that's the problem. Maybe, you know, all of the data are kind of like set in stone and we don't see how the users behind the data changed and evolved over time.So this is just a really interesting and very fascinating exploration of how we might. Imagine a different kind of web called the Wabi Sabi Web, so toChris Adams: S W S W, instead of dub dub dub, right? So, W W W, W S W, perhaps.Marketa Benisek: Yeah. Yeah,Good point. Then also just going back to friction, I actually, Hannah pointed me to a really fascinating project called Designing Friction by two artists based in the Netherlands. And I did an interview with them and they really very much go against this whole concept of what the web is becoming. You know, it's becoming this unhuman frictionless space that doesn't really allow for playfulness. And they are against it, not only as artists, but as parents, as human beings. And so it was really interesting to read through their principles of how we should kind of make friction part of the digital culture.It should be something that is celebrated and even sought for. You know, it shouldn't be something that we should avoid. And they give a whole bunch of examples of how we might be able to do that. And just to clarify, this is not to say that friction should make the internet slow or, you know, it's not about making the user experience awful. It's just about making the whole user experience more human. It shouldn't be about users, but it should be about people. So to speak, and then we've got a whole bunch of real examples. Uh, from authors who are actively trying to understand what the internet is like for people in different parts of the world. And yeah, for example, there's a really lovely article from Barbara and Olivia from the Engine Room who talk about their research on the information ecosystem in Latin America. And another one about e waste in India and another one from Hemanuel on the importance of the internet connection for the peoples of Amazon. In order to help them kind of defend not only their own rights, but also the nature around them that they are living in harmony with. So these real examples of what the internet is like in different parts of the world, not just in our kind of privileged, rich, you know, Europe or our part of the world, has been just really so eye opening and I really, really strongly recommend people to, to go and have a look.Chris Adams: So you spoke a little bit about say, you know, friction, making things a bit more kind of legible or possibly understanding where it's not just kind of totally seamless, fast thing where there's no agency for people at the end use, but you've also spoken, and there's maybe some content about essentially this intersection of climate and technology, how it manifests in different parts of the world, like you just mentioned, those, those writers from various places.Thank you for that. Okay, Hannah, can I hand over to you perhaps to talk about some of the things that have been catching your eyes, that you direct people's attention to now that you've been working on this magazine for the last, like, couple of months, for example,Hannah Smith: Yeah. Thanks, Chris. I think there is a piece written by Melissa, who's one of the organizers at climateaction.tech. And she has talked about a concept using a four winged butterfly. And the idea of the four winged butterfly is it represents a social transformation. And I think if we're going to transform the internet to be a more healthy place, to be a more humane place, to be a more just place, to be a more sustainable place, I think this is something everybody should read.She talks about the, it's not her concept. It's, it's a concept from somebody else. But she's put it into a digital sustainability context. And the basic idea is that you need these four different elements of change. So each element of change is a wing of the butterfly and a butterfly needs all four wings or all four parts in order to be able to fly.So it's this idea of, yeah, it's a lovely idea. I think it's a really, really good one. And the way she talks about it is, you know, she says, well, look, if you're looking at something that somebody's trying to do, if you're looking at a project and you think, ah, this is rubbish, this is no good, this isn't, you know, perfect, what about X, Y, Z, she said, well, you know, you can look at these other wings of the butterfly or these other aspects and actually maybe understand that, you know, this particular change or this particular initiative you're looking at is only one part of the butterfly.But if it's connected with other parts of the butterfly together, it actually makes a movement, you know, a social change that can move, that can fly. And I loved that practical toolkit that she was giving there to say, hey, you know, if you think something's imperfect, perhaps You're only narrowing in on a really tiny part of it and, and if you zoom out, there's yeah, look at the bigger picture, you might realize that this is an absolutely essential part of making other things move or, or of giving other areas flight.So I loved Melissa's piece and I, I really recommend that for anybody who's, who's interested in, in creating change and, and making progress. And I'll say two other quick things. One that just, it was a bit of a late addition to Branch, but it's just absolutely captured me, floored me, is there, it's a piece by Rob Hopkins.And he's just published something called the Ministry for Imagination, which is the work coming from a hundred podcast episodes where he invites people onto the podcast. To talk about the world. Yeah, it's pretty cool. So you've got a long way to go, Chris, a hundred episodes. So he has sort of through working with these different people, they're interviewing on the podcast, come up with this manifesto for what it means to imagine a better world.And it's not really just tech related. It's far broader than that. It's across all of society, but it is an absolutely incredible example of why imagination is important. And how sometimes it can lack a little bit in the digital space. I think we, we can get a little bit narrow minded about things perhaps, or see things in a bit too black and white and maybe not, not be playful enough.So here's Ministry of Imagination. I can't recommend strongly enough that everybody takes some time to have a look at that for like an absolute definition of the power of imagination and solarpunk. And then the last thing I'll, I'll mention super quickly. Is when Marketa and I were looking at all of the articles, we had a hope at the beginning that we would not just have loads of writing, but that we would have art and we would have poetry and music.And we noticed that poetry and music was a little bit lacking in the edition. So we've set off and created a Branch issue eight playlist. Where we have asked a whole bunch of people from across the community to suggest songs that motivate them to take action. But then also pick out lyrics that really speak to them.And actually I had a chance to listen to the playlist before launch. It is so eclectic. We've got rock, we've got classical, we've got trance, we've got acoustic, we've got reggae, we've got funk. We've got like, hardcore dance music. We've got all this stuff. And I think what that speaks to me is that there is no perfect music choice to get motivated by.Everything is different. It's, it takes a diversity of perspectives and a diversity of, of vibes, energies to make change. And I think the playlist really, really embodies that. And I think it also speaks to. The wider movement as well around needing a diversity of viewpoints and a diversity of cultures.Songs are all in different languages as well, but actually you bring all of that together and you get a real tapestry. And I loved listening to the songs and I loved reading the lyrics that people highlighted and their reasons for including these songs. So it's, I know it's not that much to do with tech, but we are all humans at the end of the day.And I think music is, can be a really, really big motivator and something that really brings people together as well. So I'm a big fan for the playlist as well that came about and you can find that on Spotify too.Chris Adams: Okay. All right. So it sounds like there's, okay. Let's say that we have prose, poetry and music and references and links to other forms of music as well. All right. This is, this is sounding quite rich actually. Okay. We're, we're just coming up to the end of time. So this is basically a kind of project. If there's something of a passion project, but there is still a focus very much on like digital culture and things like that.I understand that you do more than just make magazines. So Marketa, we should probably tell people where to go to look for this. I mean, maybe is there a domain name or a search search term they should be looking for if they want to learn about some of the things we've been talking about?Marketa Benisek: Yeah, absolutely. So if anyone is interested in reading any of these articles and much more, they can go to branch.climateaction.tech. They can find all the information there and all the articles, the playlist and everything else that we've been working on over the past four or five months, something like that. Yeah. So that's,Chris Adams: so Branch. climateaction.tech is the way to look up, and that'll give you the most recent issue. So we're recording this on the 22nd of April, but I believe it's going to coming out in the next week or so, maybe the 25th, I think it was the date that I've heard. And presumably that'll be the big day.Okay. So when this comes out. If you're listening to this, it's probably out already, so you can check it out yourself along with the other previous seven issues worth of content that you have there. All right, and if I understand it, this isn't all that you do, so maybe I could actually just, while you're here, give you a bit of space to kind of talk about some of the other things you're doing.So, Marketa, for example, where else should people be looking if they want to learn a little bit about digital sustainability or some of the ideas or some of the kinds of things that we've discussed, for example.Marketa Benisek: Sure. So we frequently publish new articles on our blog. So people can go to wholegraindigital.com and then go to our blog and they can find lots of stuff related to digital sustainability, humane web thinking, that sort of thing over there. And I'm also very happy and proud to be on the team that creates a monthly newsletter called Curiously Green. And that's all about. All the things, digital sustainability. So yeah,they can just go to,Chris Adams: I really like that as well, actually. I'm gladMarketa Benisek: thank youChris Adams: And Han, if people are curious about where you've been coming from, I suppose, is, are there any projects or things you'd like to draw people's attention to in the last few minutes that we have for this?Hannah Smith: Yeah, thanks Chris. So I guess my day job is at the Green Web Foundation. So you can head over to thegreenwebfoundation.org and you'll see a lot of my work represented there. You'll see a lot of blog posts coming out from me, where we talk about the Green Web Dataset. We talk about our open source co2.js package, and also there'll be some really nice work coming out soon.With some really nerdy deep dive work into the practicalities of carbon emission estimates for digital. So Chris, obviously you and I are working on that together. Yeah, head on over there and I think you'll get a good insight as to what my day job involves on that website.Chris Adams: Okay. And just before I go, I believe outside of life, you also have run, you mentioned Green Tech Southwest, that's another community that you're involved with.Hannah Smith: Yeah, that's right. So Green Tech Southwest, it's, it's kind of location based. The community at its heart is in the southwest of the UK. Anybody is welcome to come. All of our events are online. We've got another event coming up in May the 2nd, where we'll be looking at a methodology for measuring CO2 emissions.And we'll also be looking at some really cool visualizations of renewable energy projects in the UK. So if you can't make it in person, if you're not based in Bristol or near to Bristol, you're very welcome to join online. And that is applicable to anybody, wherever you are in the world. You're super welcome to come and be a part of that community.Chris Adams: Cool. Thank you for that. All right. I think that takes us to time actually. So folks, thank you so much for giving me your time and talking to, and giving this sneak peek of a project that's kind of close to all of our hearts, I suppose. And hopefully some of the listeners who get exposed to this, I guess all we have left is to say, thank you very much.Have a lovely week and yeah, best of luck with the launch.Marketa Benisek: Thank you. Thanks for having us.Hannah Smith: Thank you, Chris. Thanks for having us along.Chris Adams: All right. Take care, folks.Hey, everyone. Thanks for listening. Just a reminder to follow Environment Variables on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And please do leave a rating and review if you like what we're doing. It helps other people discover the show. And of course, we'd love to have more listeners.To find out more about the Green Software Foundation, please visit greensoftware.foundation. That's greensoftware.foundation in any browser. Thanks again and see you in the next episode!

In this episode of Environment Variables, host Chris Adams introduces the co-authors of Building Green Software - Anne, Sara, and Sarah. Through candid discussions, they explore the process of writing about green software development and highlight key insights gained along the way, touching on the interconnectedness between sustainability and existing best practices in software engineering, and emphasizing that embracing sustainability isn't about adding extra tasks but rather integrating it seamlessly into existing protocols such as security, resilience, and monitoring. Join for a thorough conversation on the lessons learnt writing the newest book on green software.Learn more about our people:Chris Adams: LinkedIn | GitHub | WebsiteAnne Currie: LinkedIn | WebsiteSarah Hsu: LinkedIn Sara Bergman: LinkedInFind out more about the GSF:The Green Software Foundation Website Sign up to the Green Software Foundation NewsletterNews:Building Green Software [Book] [07:57]Amazon.com: Building Green Software: A Sustainable Approach to Software Development and Operations Events:QCon London [30:36] NDC { Oslo } [32:00] Resources:What Adrian Did Next: 2022 Conference Appearances [17:53]https://github.com/adrianco/slides/blob/master/Carbon%20Moonitorama%202022.pdf If you enjoyed this episode then please either:Follow, rate, and review on Apple PodcastsFollow and rate on SpotifyWatch our videos on The Green Software Foundation YouTube Channel!Connect with us on Twitter, Github and LinkedIn!TRANSCRIPT BELOW:Anne Currie: A lot of the best practice in sustainability is often also the best practice in other areas. So it's just one more good reason to adopt best practice in security, in resilience, in monitoring, you know, it's not something you're going "oh my goodness, mate, we have a whole extra thing to do." It's just another reason to do all the things that you should be doing anyway.Chris Adams: Hello, and welcome to Environment Variables, brought to you by the Green Software Foundation. In each episode, we discuss the latest news and events surrounding green software. On our show, you can expect candid conversations with top experts in their field who have a passion for how to reduce the greenhouse gas emissions of software. I'm your host, Chris Adams. Hello, welcome to another episode of Environment Variables, where we bring you the latest news and updates from the world of sustainable software development. I'm your host, Chris Adams. We talk about green software a lot on this podcast, but if you're coming to this from, typically, a background of software engineering, it can be hard to figure out where to go next after you've done some of the kind of free training or seen a few talks online. So, you might ask yourself, "how do you build green software?" Fortunately, today, I'm sharing a podcast with three women who've written a book called precisely Building Green Software. I'm joined by Anne, Sarah, and Sara. So, before we dive into this and talk about how you build a book called Building Green Software, I just want to give a bit of space for my co-host this week to come on. Anne, is it okay if I give you the space to introduce yourself and then hand over to the next of your little gang?Anne Currie: Absolutely. Yes. So my name is Anne Currie and I am the CEO of a green training company called Strategically Green. And I'm also one of the co chairs of the GSF community working group, and I am the lead on the GSF's new Maturity Matrix project. So yeah, those things, and I'm one of the co-authors of building green software along with, and I will hand over to Sara.Sara Bergman: Hi, my name is Sara Bergman, or Sara Bergman, Bergman. I never know how to say it in English because it's so different from the Swedish. But yes, I am a senior software engineer at Microsoft, even though I'm currently on maternity leave, hence why brain is not fully switched on, and one of the co-authors of the book Building Green Software.Sarah, over to you.Sarah Hsu: I've been waiting for that sentence for so long. Sara and myself have been working together, but we never really shared a stage. So Sara over to you, or Sarah over to you, has been our dream for a long time, and now it's finally happening. But anyway, hello everyone. My name is Sarah Hsu. Similar to Sara, my surname is actually pronounced very differently with an English accent.So yeah, Sarah Hsu, it's fine. So currently I'm a site reliability engineer working for Goldman Sachs, but I'm also one of the co-authors of the Building Green Software book. And this is why we are here today. I'm also the project chair for the Green Software course that we recently launched with Linux Foundation a few years ago, and we currently have over 70 000 completion, which is amazing.But yeah, anyway, that's me.Chris Adams: Cool, thank you, Sarah, sara, and Anne. I'm saying hello from Berlin and Sarah Hsu, you're calling from London.Sara, whereabouts are you calling from today?Sara Bergman: I am in Oslo, Norway. So yeah, I am Swedish, but I live in Norway. This does not matter to anyone who lives south of Denmark, but for us Scandinavians, it matters a great deal.Chris Adams: Cool, thank you. And Anne, where are you calling from today as well?Anne Currie: I'm calling from London as well. So we're not quite as international as all that.Chris Adams: Oh, well, it's not bad. Four different cities in three nations isn't, isn't too bad, I suppose. All right. Okay, so if you're new to the Green Software Foundation podcast, my name is Chris Adams. I'm one of the policy working group chairs in the Green Software Foundation myself. I'm also the executive director of the Green Web Foundation, a Dutch non-profit focused on reaching a fossil free internet by 2030. And before we dive into what it's like writing books about green software, here's a quick reminder that everything we talk about will be linked in the show notes on this episode. And because we're a software engineering podcast, the transcript will be available on GitHub in markdown format. So if there's any typos or there's corrections, then we do accept pull requests.And if there are pull requests that are accepted, we'll then credit you and shout you out in the next episode. All right, then. So, itooks like you're sitting with us comfortably, Sara, Sarah, and Anne. Should we get into it and talk a little bit about writing green software and or writing about writing green software?Yeah?Anne Currie: Absolutely.Chris Adams: All right. Okay. I'm going to hand to you, Sarah, first. If I understand it, this is one of, your first book writing about green software. So maybe you could just talk a little bit about how you found that process, writing about, say, a developing field like this.Sarah Hsu: Yeah. It's my first time writing a book and it's also my first time appearing on a podcast. So maybe we can make another episode on this experience. I'm joking. So what was it like writing a book on green software? Honestly, I don't want to sound too cheesy, but it has been a really fulfilling experience.And why is that? It's because finally I can use what I'm good at, which is software engineering, and use what I've been training for the past seven to 10 years to have a positive impact on the environment. And it just, it's great to see that ripple effect from something I'm good at and instead of just individual actions.So I feel that really, really close to my heart. And of course that Anne and Sara made, they're not, they're more than just the icing on cake. They're absolutely integral to this entire experience. I've always admired them since I first met them three years ago. And working with them has taught me so much.Yeah, couldn't have asked for better co-authors. And, and thankfully we all share similar humor. So when one of us put a joke or put a pun in a book, it doesn't get like, "this is not funny," cross it out. So I think that's also another icing on the cake. Yeah. But yeah, hopefully that's not too cheesy of an answer... answer but Chris Adams: No, it's okay. It's okay to be genuine if you've enjoyed working with other people, especially if you're doing something you believe in. Absolutely. All right. So that's the skinny from someone who's basically been writing books like this for a while. Anne, this isn't your first rodeo, you've written a few other books.And I know that you, and we've spoken a little bit about all kinds of sci-fi books before, so maybe you could, I could just touch on you about maybe some of the differences between writing about wacky sci-fi or writing about things when you're, if you forgive the term, at the coalface of software development trying to figure out what to do next here.Anne Currie: Yeah, that's a good point. So this is my tenth book, eight of which though were sci-fi, were futuristic sci-fi, but kind of like more speculative fiction than hard sci-fi. So it was all kind of surprisingly similar to writing an actual book about stuff that's happening now. But oddly enough, writing the fiction is much easier because you get to make it all up.Whereas, although I try not to make it up, I try to keep it quite, quite, quite,realistic. It's hard sci-fi, Yeah. but the book was much more difficult because the book, I mean, I think this is true for all of us. It was really important that we got everything right and we, and we phrased it right and we made it so that people could read it. Which I also want to do with my books, but they aren't quite so important, if you know what I mean. This feels like an important book, or we need there to be an important book, so hopefully this will be the important book, because if it isn't, then it'll be quite a long time before there is another one.It's a lot of work, writing a book.Chris Adams: I can definitely concur with that. Alright, so, one thing I didn't mention was that this was actually published by O'Reilly, who have some form writing about sustainability in this field. There was a book by Tim Frick, in the mid 2000s, called Designing for Sustainability, which was focused on web. But as I understand it, this has more of a focus on parts of cloud, perhaps, or some of the other practices. Sara, you've been working with cloud for a good few years now. Maybe you could talk a little bit about what actually the content covers inside green software, because it's quite a wide term and there are ideas like web for sustainability. Maybe you could just, maybe give a high level on some of the areas you focus on, then we can talk a little bit about how you folks work together remotely.Sara Bergman: Yeah. Sure, sure. Yeah. So definitely if you run on cloud, we have a lot of content for you, but even for people who have their own data centers or on prem and you're allowed to call like a few servers in a closet, a data center, as far as we're concerned, there are definitely material for those people as well. We all come from a more backend point of view, but there is.Web and front end content as well. Some of the points are on a much higher level than this applies only to you if you deploy to this specific type of machine. We tried to go broader, so it's really for anyone who writes or works in the software industry. Not just for, for the engineer, but for someone who is in a role that's not so directly linked to, to code.We focus a lot on ops as well. So if you are on that side, there is a lot of good content for people like that. And that was really important to us. We come from slightly different backgrounds and we don't want to exclude anyone. That was one of the things we talked about really early on in the process.You should pick this book up and feel like there is something for me here. And that's been really fun, I think, to sort of go broader than maybe you do in your regular, like, nine to five job.Chris Adams: Okay. All right. Thank you for that, Sara. So, I now. If I may, I'm just going to touch on a couple of things that you spoke about there. You spoke about the idea that you're writing a book for a number of different audiences, so it's not just for people who are like optimizing code. It's not just about green code, there's maybe aspects of ops as well and things like that. And, given that you're not all in the same space, and given that O'Reilly has quite a, like, established kind of setup for writing books, maybe you could talk a little bit about how you wrote this. Like, was it like, you're using a bunch of GitHub together? Was it Google Docs? Or is there some kind of magic platform behind the O'Reilly firewall that you might be using to keep track of this stuff?Because I've never, I've never understood, and we're a bunch of engineers here, or at least coders here, because I'm curious, I'm interested in it, and like, it seems a bit weird to maybe use like email versions of Word around to write a book about code, for example.Anne Currie: Yeah, it was all Google Docs. Well, well, one of the interesting things is O'Reilly have a lot of different options for how you're going to do it. So they have a kind of, there are kind of GitHub integrations where you can do all through GitHub. But we decided to do it all on Google Docs because we were so remote. And in fact, we've only met all the three of us in person once before. So it was all, all had to be remote. So we would use Google Docs. And I think it went pretty smoothly. That was quite easy. I don't know what you two thought.Sara Bergman: Yeah, I agree. And especially because all of us have been traveling at some point, or some of us traveled quite a lot, I've had, been very pregnant and then had a baby. And there are circumstances where you don't want to boot up a laptop and like sign into a Git repo. Like that's second nature to some, but sometimes it's very convenient to be able to do it from your phone at 3am, if that's when you have the time.Chris Adams: All right. Okay then. So that gives us a bit of idea of like how the sausage was made, so to speak. All right, then. Anne, I'll put this to you first and then see who else wants to bite. Last time we were speaking, Anne, you were, we were talking about, I think, lasers from space as a way to power data centers, about whether that's a good idea or a bad idea. And I learned a bunch of things about there. So are there any particular things you learned about green software along the way when you're writing this book? Because you can't, you know, you can't be the expert automatically then, and it's a very, very fast moving field. So were there any things that kind of leap out at you or that you were surprised by as you were writing this, that you had to kind of change your opinion on or rethink perhaps?Anne Currie: Well, probably my favorite chapter to write, which was, was the one that I had to do the most work on, the most research on, we only decided to add later on in the course of the book, which was the networking chapter. Because I was quite interested in what, how does networking fit into green software? You know, is it, where is all the electricity being burned?You know, and I've, the, the most interesting thing I think in that was I interviewed a whole load of people and I did a lot of reading of papers and things like that to find out what was going on. And the interesting thing for me, I think was the last mile, comparing how good or bad, or green or ungreen all the ways means of connectivity are. So, finding out that that fiber is by far the best by a long chalk actually. So fiber is fantastic. So the backbone is pretty good. The Metro, which is what takes your data across cities, that's pretty much all fiber these days, it's pretty good. And The Last Mile, if it's fiber, it's pretty good to your house. That's the best, followed by Copper. Copper is actually pretty okay, if you're still, I'm still on Copper here, and don't, you know, don't feel too badly about Copper. But once you move into wire free stuff, then Wi-Fi isn't too bad, but 3G is absolutely terrible. 2G is terrible. 3G is better than 2G was.4G is much better than 3G was. And 5G is much better than 4G. But one of the things that interests me about it is that the mobile generations are a classic. Something we talk about a lot in the book is Jevons paradox, which is the idea that as things get more efficient, you use more of them or to a certain extent, you don't use more of them because the, well, they, you, Chris Adams: The savings can be eroded by the increased amount of use in absolute terms. That's what you're getting at, right?Anne Currie: Indeed. Yes. Yeah. And 5G, I would say is the classic example of that, which is it's much better than 4G, but you know, people didn't invent it for that reason. They developed the efficient 5G because they wanted us to be doing a lot more stuff on mobile devices, and we will use it. The whole point is for us to do more stuff on mobile devices, more mobile gaming. And so, yeah, 5G is vastly better than 4G, but it will drive massive increase in the use of mobile. And mobile is very energy intensive compared to a landline or Wi-Fi. It's different use case.Chris Adams: So there's one thing I want to just check on before I kind of hand over to one of the... Can I say one of the Saras, or one of the... Sarahs, Saras, all right, yeah. I'll hand over to you if there's anything that you found surprising. So when you're saying better, you're talking about in terms of energy use per gigabyte transferred here. That's your use, like it's efficiency that you're referring to there, right?Anne Currie: Bits per watt or watts per bit is the industry term for it. And it's something they really do focus on a lot. And the interesting thing is, yeah, I mean, obviously networking is there because everybody wants to do more networking. There's, there's so much untapped demand, which is a classic Jevons paradox issue, really.Chris Adams: Well hopefully the fact that we've got a bunch of dark, do we still have significant amounts of dark fiber from previous dot com booms and busts where we've got all this stuff available for us to use? Surely that's one thing that we have been able to pick up on, right? Right,Anne Currie: Well, yeah, there certainly would have been, but to be honest, the past is of no use to us really. It's all the stuff that's been, we're just still laying cable at an unbelievable rate to handle people's, the desire for streamed content.Chris Adams: So there's an aspect of embodied carbon that we need to be thinking about as well then. So that's one of the things we've learned. Alright, I'll open the floor to, yeah, Sarah Hsu, in London. Are there any particular things that surprised you when you were writing this or caused you to kind of change your mind or think, "Oh. This is probably something we should be spending a bit more time thinking about," for example.Sarah Hsu: Yeah, so we have a chapter called Core Benefits. And our initial idea was to basically examine green software from different perspectives in software engineering. We have like security, we have reliability, resilience we've performance, data, all that. But while we were writing that chapter, we realized, "hey, actually, this is all very important, but one thing that we're seeing is, because of what's going on around the world, there's so many other things going on. People really are not taking green software as seriously as maybe say 2021." So we actually wrote a chapter on like how we can help our readers to convince others that green software is not as difficult as it's thought out to be, and we came up with like a three bullet points on like how you can convince others. But most importantly, that we want to say in this chapter is that there are so many other knock on benefits from doing other best practices in software engineering already. Green software is not its own ivory tower, like people shouldn't be worried like, "Hey, like everyone is already so overstretched," you don't need to worry about. "Oh, now I need to have a whole new team just to work on sustainability." People who are already very skilled in security, very skilled in reliability, they all can help our software to be more sustainable. I think that's a really strong information we really want to send out there, especially to like the grassroots people and not fail them to be really helpless in the current climate.So yeah, that's probably quite interesting realization we had later into the book.Chris Adams: Okay, that's quite an empowering message, and that sounds like, there's a really lovely quote from Adrian Cockcroft, who's leading the Realtime Carbon Project, so he says like "carbon is another metric," and yes, there are other, obviously more metrics that you need to track, but it's not like people in software engineering have never had to measure something before.So that's one of the things, like, obviously there's things about transparency that can help, but yeah, to an extent, there are lots of transferable skills that can be applied into this domain as well. That seems to be what I'm getting from you on that one.Anne Currie: Yeah, I mean, I really liked your chapter that you wrote on that. You put something in, Sarah, about "it's not a new work stream." It's, you know, a lot of the best practices in sustainability is often also the best practice in other areas. So it's just one more good reason to adopt best practice in security, in resilience in monitoring, you know, it's not something you're going "oh my goodness, mate, we have a whole extra thing to do." It's just another reason to do all the things that you should be doing anyway.Chris Adams: Okay, that's a useful framing actually. Sara, I, are there any things that you've learned, that you found, that you want to share, or that you would think would be salient for the conversation here?Sara Bergman: Yeah, sure. I think, and that maybe goes back to the process is we interviewed people, a lot of people for this book and got their perspective. We also have amazing tech reviewers, and all those people have been very instrumental to the book as well. And, and that's something where I learned a lot from to reach out to people and how willing people are to help and contribute and share their expertise inside the community.So the community is great. So that's not maybe a hard skill or a hard thing, but that's something that I really enjoyed about the process. And that's something I learned a lot from specifically around the hardware chapter, because I don't work with hardware every day. So. That was a lot of learnings for me.And actually, I listened to previous episodes of this podcast, for example, the one about the Junkyard Data Center, which is very interesting to include as well as a way to combat e-waste and how big of a problem that is. And then you also get to sort of step outside your bubble and like, okay, but e-waste is surely something that concerns software people, but also other people.And then you get to realize, okay, but there is lots of legislation around the world working to combat this. And like things are already moving in other sectors as well, which is really fun to see. And then you get additional knock on effects because industries and countries come together to work towards the same goals.Chris Adams: Okay, all right. Thank you for that, Sara. So, we've, you've written about this, and the thing, you know, when you write a blog post, and as soon as you've done that blog post, you realize, "oh, there's a things, a few things I wish I'd couldn't have put onto it." I imagine it might be somewhat similar when you're getting a book out the door, because once it's out, it's not like you can push updates to a book the same way you can push updates, you know, hotfixes and things. And now the Building Green Software, the book has gone to print, are there any things that you wish you had a bit more time to kind of write about, or that now that you've seen it, go, you know, "oh yeah, we totally missed this," or "here's a thing we should, if I could do that again, I'd spend a bit more time writing about." Sarah, if I can, if I start with you, then I'll kind of go around and then we can round this up perhaps.Sarah Hsu: I definitely had that same reaction, like two weeks before we were about to submit everything... And this is not a software product. We don't have a process on how to mitigate an incident. What if we wrote something wrong? How do we go about it? I remember just like panicking as well. But it is very interesting, like looking at publishing book.And like managing a production system. But anyway, I think the things that really, I wish I probably spent a little bit more time on is like in the observability space, like, especially how not just in green software, but like the traditional monitoring metrics and logging really isn't doing what it's supposed to do in the modern software system management, right?As our system gets more intricate, there's a lot more microservices. Sometimes like if you want to go from one hop, one request all the way for the request to come back to give you a response that can go through a hundred different systems, how do you know exactly where things have gone wrong? And I think I really wish I've spent a lot more time thinking how carbon and how environmental aspects will marry into this space and how do we actually make sure that we are not reinventing the wheel and once whatever metrics, whatever data we are ready, we can slot right into what the world of DevOps and what of SRE is already very good at doing, which is production system management, especially on how to make our system observable, if that makes sense.Chris Adams: Yes, it does. So what I think I'm taking away from you is that we've got things like spans, and we've got ways to kind of understand the impact of a particular API request or something like that. But when you've got a distributed system, we don't have something like the equivalent to that right now forcarbon, for example. You can't track distributed carbon across all your systems to kind of sum it up.Sarah Hsu: To find out exactly which system is the trouble one, like, I have a really good analogy. I was writing this the other day, like, you can think of, like, three different elementary data as like a murder mystery, right? Metrics will tell you when someone has died, right? And logging probably will tell you how someone has died, and traces will tell you where this person has died.So we need to figure out how all these three things will match with, like, the environmental aspect. And hopefully we can have, like, traces that will tell you that's exactly where the bottleneck is happening within our system that, okay, system C.5 is the one that's emitting the most carbon.Chris Adams: Okay, we're going down a rabbit hole here, but like, we already have all tools like Grafana and stuff like that that give that. Surely we can work out these numbers. This is like a problem that can be solved by,Sarah Hsu: Yeah. Yeah. But we just need to make sure we are going in the right step. I mean, and not come up with things that ourselves, if that makes sense.Chris Adams: yeah, that does, okay, all right,Anne Currie: It is,well, I'm going to say it is a bit, we'll just spend it, we'll blow all our time talking about this. We need another, we need another podcast to talk about the similarities and differences between carbon metrics and other metrics, because there is a key difference, which we can't talk about now because we're going to run out of time, but we should, we should have that in another podcast. The key difference between carbon metrics and other metrics.Chris Adams: Okay, all right, that's definitely a thing to dive into, because it's easy to get focused on carbon, and it turns out, yes, we're in a climate emergency, but there's other things we need to be thinking about as well. All right, okay, so we spoke a little bit about what's on your lap next, I suppose, and Sara, you mentioned that there's a baby on your lap, or that's one of the things that you have and you're coming back to. Are there any, like, what happens next now that this is out the door? Because, as I understand it, the book, Building Green Software, is available digitally for people, so you could get it through Safari. But I understand there was quite an interesting approach taken about making this available to a wider set of people.Does anyone want to take that at all, to talk about the kind of like open aspect of this book? Because this was something which felt quite exciting when I, when I first heard about it.Anne Currie: Yeah, I'm happy to talk about that. So at the moment, the book is, it's available on the O'Reilly Safari site. So anybody who's an O'Reilly subscription, or if you're a fast reader, you can, you can trial an O'Reilly subscription and read the whole thing. But I wouldn't necessarily recommend that because the book's very intense.I think if you just sit there and read it end to end, your head will explode. But so it's available on O'Reilly. It's available to buy from all good, well digitally, it's available on the Kindle at the moment, so you can buy it from the Amazon site. And in two weeks, I think it comes out in physical form, so available from all good bookshops. So you can order it anywhere you like and read it in real life that way. Or if you wait a couple of weeks after that, until we actually have time to go around and set something up, it'll also be available under a creative commons license, so under a, it's a, it's a fairly restrictive one.It's the O'Reilly creative commons license, which is, so you can't take it off and then write your own book, you know, you can't, it's, but you have to attribute this and it's non commercial and it's, but you can read it for free.Chris Adams: So, source available. You can read it.Okay, that's, wow, that's really, really exciting then.Anne Currie: Yeah. That will be available. I'll have it a copy up on my Strategically Green website first, probably.And then we will, we'll see where else we put it as well. But yes, we insisted on that because it's just so important, you know, it's saying, "we hope this is an important book and it's really important that people read it."Chris Adams: Great, wow, that's exciting. It's really useful to have something in the, so it's not quite public domain, but it's definitely available in the same way that you can have source available licenses that you can still benefit from and apply there. All right, then. Okay, so we spoke a little bit about some of the things we're covering inside the book, about how you can find this, and when it may be available, and some of the lessons learnt along the way. I've got a question, I have to ask now, like, what comes next, now that we've done that? Anne, I'll put it to you, and then, if anyone wants to take the question after that. So, Anne, you've written a book, or you, plural, have written this book now. Do you just sit in your laurels? Do you just like wait for the royalties to come in or does something else happen after this now?Anne Currie: If only, if only we could sit in our laurels and wait for the royalties... I don't think writing a book is something you, you ever, unless you're J. K. Rowling, you never really make a, maybe, maybe a film wouldn't be made from this book, but I suspect that's not the case. So, yeah. So the next thing I'm doing is a whole load of training around this, this stuff.So I'm, I'm doing that through Strategically Green. So started to do some public training and, and one of the things that I'm doing in the public training is, it's focusing on the thing that I would have liked to have put in the book that I didn't. Which is that it's not all bad, you know, there's just enormous benefits.And one of the reasons why we don't have a whole chapter of like, "Oh my goodness, mate, this is amazing. Why aren't you just stopping and dropping everything and converting your systems to run on renewables? Because it's, you're crazy not to" it's because I don't think a year ago when we started, 18 months ago, when we kicked this whole thing off, that was the case. It wasn't so obvious that renewable power was, was the win that it is becoming. I mean, if you look now somewhere like Spain and Portugal, I'll pick them rather than Scandinavia because Spain and Portugal were doing it the total new tech way. They're doing it with, it's all wind and solar. They're now even in the winter this year, they've had huge, they've had large numbers of weeks when power has been free for the bulk of the business day. So, you know, it's kind of like, this is the dream of humanity that, you know, through, through the ages that we would have effectively free power. And it's looking like that is a possibility, but we will need to change our systems to run on top of it because it's not all the time it's variable. And that's kind of the key message of the book.But I wish we'd hammered it home a bit more, the wins.Chris Adams: Right, I'm going to put the question to Sarah Hsu next, but just before Anne, I just want to check on that. When you're doing some research for this, we know that the power, the cost of power changes depending on how available it is. Are there any cloud providers who are making that visible to people yet? Because have you found this? It feels like it's the obvious thing to have to incentivize the use of green power, but it's almost nowhere so far. And maybe you, you might've come across this as well, or maybe the big providers might do something like this because they clearly are making significant decisions about this as well.Anne Currie: No, I don't, nobody is, but I have spoken to people at most, apart from Google, who speaks to anybody, nobody speaks to anybody at Google, but I've spoken to, spoken to folk who don't necessarily know and have no ability to affect it, but they are aware that eventually we know that the clouds will provide dynamic tariffs. There's no doubt about that because everybody's going to have to provide dynamic tariffs at some point. So, you know, I don't believe that anybody does it at the moment, but I think there's no doubt that it is coming.Chris Adams: Okay, so not from the big guys, but it's something available coming from somewhere. The one company I've found that is doing this so far, there's a company called TriBuild AI. They're doing this in, I think they're based in Texas, and they're strategically placing things, but the idea is that you can use the power, but not between 6pm and 9pm, when everyone's using power, and that's how they make it like a fifth of the cost of everyone else.So we are seeing early signs of this, and like, there's examples everywhere outside of technology that we could learn from as well. Okay, all right then, so Anne, that's what you've got on. You've got the maturity matrix to kind of maintain, and the training that you have going on. Sarah Hsu, if I hand over to you. And now that the book's out the door, what do you think happens next? Or what's, what's on your plate after this?Sarah Hsu: Well, I'm just speaking for myself, but I'm pretty sure all of us are going to be rock stars and go on a tour, go on a speaking tour and book signing tour. So yeah, I think Sara and Anne are doing QCon in April and myself, I'm not speaking this year, but we will be doing like a small book signing there. So it'd be great to see a few folks there.Myself, we'll be going to Berlin for a conference and then hopefully we'll do some book signing there as well. And one thing I really want to do is I just want to find some observability for who is also really passionate about sustainability and just see what It's just really, really chat it out about like how we can do all this is within observability.How do we actually make something observable in terms of carbon or like any environmental aspects if that makes sense.Chris Adams: Yes, that does. If you are not already speaking to some of the CNCF TAG ENV folks, I'm really excited about some of the work they're doing, and they've recently presented some stuff at KubeCon specifically about the observability thing that it's definitely worth chatting about, actually. Okay, and so,Sarah Hsu: Yeah, definitely.Chris Adams: And Sara, I'll hand over to you now. What, now that this is out the door, what's on the plate for you, now that you're coming back into the world of, like, software engineering, as opposed to looking after the little one?Sara Bergman: Yeah, out of the diaper. Well, I guess there will be still be diapers for plenty of time, but yeah, no, going back to work and then being a rockstar going on a speaker tour, like Sara said, so QCon London, which will be very fun. This is the second time only all of us see each other like in person. So very much looking forward to that.Speaking at NDC Oslo later this year. Also, the Green Software Foundation has a meetup in Oslo, which is very fun. And next, next one of those, I'll be speaking as well. So that would be really fun to like see folk on my own home turf. And yeah, after that, who knows, you know, this was so much fun. Do we do a version two?I, you know, we'll see. Right?Sarah Hsu: I think we should, I forgot to mention, we've actually have the book translated to both complex and simplified Chinese. So that's something very, very exciting. I was telling one of my best friend, my best friend was like, "Oh, now your parents don't have an excuse to not read your book," because now, my poor mother will now have to read this book.Chris Adams: Wow, I did not, that's, that's, well, it's more than a billion people. There's a, there's a readership to, to reach, and people who speak Chinese as a first language probably need to be thinking about the environmental impact of software as well, given it's the second largest economy in the world now, basically, so we've mentioned there's a growing body of resources out there for people to be looking at this. So we mentioned things like, say, some of the free training that's available from the Linux Foundation that people can pick up. And there's a book which we've spoke about, which is Building Green Software by O'Reilly that is going to be available from a number of different places. So Anne, if people do want to, obviously they know about the book, but beyond the book, where should people go if they're interested in what you were talking about or some of the things you're working on?Anne Currie: Well, at the moment, LinkedIn is, I find, is the new place where all the green chat is happening. But yeah, yeah, LinkedIn. It was lovely whilst Twitter still existed as a thing, and I'm still there, Chris Adams: drove it into a mountain, yeah.Anne Currie: Indeed. It was, yeah, I'm still there. I still find useful things there, but it's not as active as it once was.So LinkedIn is now my social media hangout.Chris Adams: Okay, alright, and then Sarah Hsu, how about you?Sarah Hsu: Similarly, I was never really on Twitter and I'm really glad I have persuaded Anne to move over from Twitter to LinkedIn. I also just can't I do want to quickly mention, we do have an email address that you can reach out to all of us. It's building.green.software@gmail.com. So if you have any feedback, any suggestions, or just want to say... please, please, yeah, just reach out to one of us.Or if you want more direct response from one of us, reach out to us on LinkedIn. Chris Adams: So if you're a retired engineer and you're going to tell people "you should be solving this all with nuclear," obviously, that's the way to, that's the place to send emails to. Okay, alright, please don't do that, actually.And, Sara, for you, where should people look if they want to keep up with some of the things you're working on?You mentioned QCon and a few things like that, but if there's a particular URL or website people should look at, then, now is your chance.Sara Bergman: Yeah, I'm also, also on LinkedIn, missing Twitter. I still hang around, or X, I guess it's called now, and feel sad about what it once was. But no, LinkedIn is the best place.Chris Adams: All right, then. Well, folks, thank you very much for sharing your time and sharing some of the insights you've learned along the way of building basically the first book about sustainability and stuff which wasn't written by men, because that's actually like about freaking time. That's very, very good. And yeah, lovely seeing you all again. Hopefully, maybe I'll see some of you in London if I get over there or possibly some of you see some of you in Berlin if you're coming over and maybe wonder if you might sign my copy if I can bring it. All right. Thanks, folks. This was fun. Really, really nice seeing you all again.Sara Bergman: Thank you, Chris. Anne Currie: Thank you.Bye bye.Sarah Hsu: Bye guys.Sara Bergman: Bye.Chris Adams: Okay, take care of yourselves. Hey, everyone, thanks for listening. Just a reminder to follow Environment Variables on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And please do leave a rating and review if you like what we're doing. It helps other people discover the show. And of course, we'd love to have more listeners. To find out more about the Green Software Foundation, please visit greensoftware.foundationon. That's greensoftware.foundation in any browser. Thanks again and see you in the next episode.

In this episode of Environment Variables, host Chris Adams engages in a fascinating discussion with Marjolein Pordon, a quality consultant at Praegus, about the exciting synergy between sustainability and low code platforms. They explore how low code tools not only streamline software development but also play a crucial role in reducing carbon emissions. Marjolein shares insights into the early integration of sustainability considerations in the development cycle, and together, they demystify the misconception that companies' unique needs necessitate custom software solutions, highlighting the efficiency and environmental benefits of leveraging shared components in low code environments.Learn more about our people:Chris Adams: LinkedIn | GitHub | WebsiteMarjolein Pordon: LinkedIn | WebsiteFind out more about the GSF:The Green Software Foundation Website Sign up to the Green Software Foundation NewsletterNews: Introducing Flowty - Build low carbon, self-hosted Webflow sites - Fershad Irani [23:22]Data Center Factsheet [29:36]Resources:Introduction to ESG [11:51]ESG and Climate Change | CourseraMendix [14:32]WordPress [14:39]Zapier [14:49]Creatio [14:50]N8N [15:39]Windmill.dev [22:42]OutSystems  [34:15]If you enjoyed this episode then please either:Follow, rate, and review on Apple PodcastsFollow and rate on SpotifyWatch our videos on The Green Software Foundation YouTube Channel!Connect with us on Twitter, Github and LinkedIn!TRANSCRIPT BELOW:Marjolein Pordon: With all the emails we send, inclusive, reply all, the, "yes, I'll see you in a minute." All those kinds of emails, there are 12 000 times from earth to the moon with a car on carbon emission. That's huge.Chris Adams: Hello, and welcome to Environment Variables, brought to you by the Green Software Foundation. In each episode, we discuss the latest news and events surrounding green software. On our show, you can expect candid conversations with top experts in their field who have a passion for how to reduce the greenhouse gas emissions of software.I'm your host, Chris Adams.Hello, and welcome to another episode of Environment Variables, the podcast where we bring you the latest news and updates from the world of sustainable software development. I'm your host, Chris Adams. When we talk about green software, we often talk about optimizing code we already have, or finding out ways to make the energy we use less carbon intensive.So for the computation we do end up using, we end up with less pollution in the form of greenhouse gases and so on being emitted as a byproduct of our work. However, there's another way to look at this. If we accept that the most efficient database query possible is one that you don't have to make because you've designed a system not to need them,then you can argue that the most efficient system can be one that you haven't had to spend loads of time, energy and money building, building an entirely custom version of, because you found an existing set of components that work well together. This is essentially the argument made when people make the case that a technology stack containing open source software can be more sustainable than a closed source one.In that the cost gone into building the various components is shared across all the millions of people who would otherwise be duplicating all this effort, building their own versions of these open source, the components. But does this apply elsewhere as well, though? Low code and no code environments have grown in popularity over the last few years, and one argument in favor of using them is that by building the system, or building any system from a set of existing components offered in a kind of visual, low coding environment, you avoid the need to spend so much time, money, and yes, energy, building your own custom software in the first place.This brings up all kinds of interesting questions. Does this just mean that we end up with more software in total, because more people are building their own software, rather than a relatively small number of professional developers? And are the needs of organizations so sufficiently generic that you can use low code environments for this kind of stuff, to avoid needing all that custom code?And if you're stuck using providers who are moving slowly to transition from fossil fuel in their infrastructure, what are your options? With me to explore these ideas today is Marjolein Pordon, one of the few people I've seen talking about both sustainability and low code at the same time. Thanks for joining me today, Marjolein.Marjolein Pordon: Thanks for having me, Chris.Chris Adams: Okay, you're welcome, Marjolein. Can I give you a few minutes to introduce yourself and what you do? And because you're the first Marjolein I've ever met, if I'm mispronouncing your name, could you please just share the pronunciation so I can use it properly when I'm later on the call? Because I'm trying my best, but you're the first Marjolein I've ever met.Marjolein Pordon: Yeah, Marjolein is a Dutch name and you're pronouncing it correct. It's like Mar and then Yo from the rapper, Yo Yo, and then a line, like a thin line. So, Marjolein, that's, that's completely correct. Well, I'm Marjolein Pordon. I'm, 38 years old. I live in the Netherlands and I'm a quality consultant for the company Praegus. Praegus is a test consultancy company, and we also have a branch that looks into low code. And one of our CEOs is very much into sustainability. So I'm really in my place there. She also thinks that we should move to an office with sun, sunlight energy, and wind energy. So it's not just me, but also in the company I work for that we have these standards and I'm now, I think eight years in the business and I really love working in IT, testing and things like that.So yeah, I'm really happy to be here. Oh, and within low code, I've had a few assignments in low code and it got me the name, nickname Lady Low Code, because I'm so passionate about low code and talking on conferences about it.Chris Adams: I'm glad you mentioned that actually. First, for the breakdown of Mar-yo-line, that's very easy to understand, but also having an alter ego like Batman is also very interesting and useful to have. And that makes it really easy to find as well for the website. That was one way that we came across you actually.So, and you mentioned a couple of things that were quite interesting there. So, oh, let me just quickly introduce myself for people who've never listened to this before. So my name is Chris Adams. I am the executive director of the Green Web Foundation. It's a Dutch-based non profit focusing on a fossil-free internet by 2030.I also work as one of the policy chairs for the Green Software Foundation's policy working group where we basically do work at the intersection of policy and green software. If you are new to this podcast, folks, we will share a transcript of everything and we also, we cover, we mentioned quite a few projects and we'll be listing those in show notes.So we'll share links to that at the end of that. So if you're listening and there's something caught your eye, please do take a look out for that, because that's one thing that we have available. Finally, okay, back to the podcast. Marjolein, I think you're sitting comfortably?Marjolein Pordon: Yeah, I am.Chris Adams: Excellent. Okay, so you mentioned that you didn't always work at this intersection and you worked in a couple of fields where you might specialize, before specialize in this niche, and you said that they've kind of influenced your thinking today, like, could you maybe elaborate on some of that?Because you spoke about, say, testing and stuff like that, and we know that some of the tools people use for testing end up being the same tools you might use for driving certain activities, driving a browser and stuff like that. So yeah, maybe if I just give you a bit of space to expand on that, then that might help listeners understand some of the connections here or how you got here.Marjolein Pordon: Yeah, I started as a software tester in 2017. My boyfriend is also a software tester and he said, "yo, you, you would be perfect for it." I started on high code, traditional projects, worked there for, I think, a year or two. And then in 2019, I was available for new assignments and I get really obnoxious then because I don't like doing nothing.So then a coworker said, "well, you can fill in for a week and a half, it's low code, it's easy. Just do your thing." And then it seemed to be not so easy because low code platforms have standards. You need to use them as required. And people didn't do that. So instead of a week and a half, I was there for a year and a half.Yeah. So, and then I noticed that if you use low code well, the reusable components make the time to market quicker, but also your energy use lower. And the platform that I was working on then, also now doesn't refer to itself as a local platform, but a sustainability platform, because they say even more important than a quick time to market is that we even can go to market.Because in the Netherlands, we see that the energy use is that high that companies are not allowed to be connected to the energy network. So that local platform said, "we need to change our way of working, because if we do not do that, we cannot make new apps. Because they're simply not the energy to do that, we'll be cut down.So we need to do this something. And if other companies don't, then that's up to them. But we make the change because we see that it's necessary for the environment." And I really like that. So I got passionate about low code on the one side and sustainability became a thing. And then in 2022, I was asked for QA&TEST to speak there on green IT. And then I got in contact with professors in Spain and in Portugal, not only on sustainable green IT, but also on the connection with low code. And, well, it got me convinced that we really need to do something because it's, it's scary how much energy resources we use, but also hardware resources we use, because if we make quicker apps, heavier apps, we need new hardware, but we are losing also those resources.So we need to change the way of thinking and low code, I think, is a good way to help us change the way we feel and think about software development.Chris Adams: Okay, that's actually... so you said a couple of quite interesting things that I haven't heard people mention before. One of the first things you spoke about was this idea that, okay, given the fact that there's, there are limits that we need to stay inside, the thing we need to do is actually, if we're going to increase the kind of utility of the services we need to do, then we need to make them more efficient.So we did, a couple episodes ago, we did one all about multi-tenancy, about the idea of like multiple people sharing the same platform and using it in a more kind of efficient way, rather than having the equivalent number of like multiple separate platforms which aren't used very much. And it seems like you're touching on some of those ideas there, because this is actually the first time I've heard groups actually take the kind of limit thing more quite seriously, because you often see folks talking about, "okay, well, we're going to make things more efficient."But if you look at the large providers, say, Amazon, Google, and Microsoft, all of these providers seem to have plans to massively increase the energy use they're using. So this is actually quite a different approach that you've been laying out here. It's like, "well, actually, we're going to use efficiency to kind of book those savings rather than just use it to sell more stuff" basically. Okay. And that was actually quite cool. And the thing that you also mentioned as well was this idea about the testing aspects. Now, I think that there's a term that we spoke about before in the kind of preparation session for this. You mentioned this idea of like shifting left. So, there are things that you would do when you're a tester to make sure you can meet a set of standards.And it seems like, there's maybe some ideas about applying those things as part of a kind of process, so that you kind of maintain a certain level of efficiency or a certain level of accessibility or sustainability as well. Maybe we could just expand on a little bit of that before we move to the next point.Marjolein Pordon: Yeah, because if we look to, to testing, usually we come at the end of the development cycle. The things are made and then we test it and then we say, "well, we trust this to work or we not, and" then it needs some rebook. But what we believe as test consultants is the sooner we, the earlier we are connected, then we can think ahead.We can look to the requirements, but, and not only about the product, but also about the sustainability. Because if we create awareness with the developer. How to make his application more energy efficient, it's better to be done before he starts building. Same with the product owners and the designers and the architects.They are the ones that should design the system to be energy efficient. And if we all work together and if I as a tester know what they have done, then I can also check that. And it's going to be important because at least in Europe, we have the ESG legislation. And what I hear a lot is that small companies say, "Oh yes, but it's only for the big companies."Is it? Because if you supply to a big company, you're part of the chain. Chris Adams: Yeah.Marjolein Pordon: and you need to also document and let know that you are efficient. And it could be that you lose some big clients because you do not have the things that they need for the legislation.So Chris Adams: Yeah, I see.Marjolein Pordon: So, in the whole chain, we need to shift left.We need to use sustainability as a nonfunctional. And it works broader than just environmental sustainability. Because on the marketing part, we all know that, especially the youth want a better world. If you want those as your clients, and they're gonna grow up, they're gonna work in companies, you need to be green, then you need to show that you care for the world. So, it's not just that you save the planet, but you also save your brand, you save the way people look at you, and you make sure that you are there in a few years.Chris Adams: I see, okay, so you're referring to like, essentially retaining talent and actually attracting people who are basically looking around and thinking, "hey, we should probably be doing something on this climate thing." And if a company is not kind of living those values, that's going to make them think twice about even, "should I join this organization?Should I choose to work in this field?" And so on. Okay, thanks, Marjolein. Okay, so we've spoken about low code and no code, and you mentioned that there's like one, you're working for one provider. Maybe it might help to just get a bit concrete, because it's quite a wide ranging term. So when we talk about things like, say, low code, maybe we could talk about some of the kind of better known services, so people get an idea of what they might look for.So what is, like, a low code system in this case, or who are the companies that do this kind of stuff, perhaps? If you could talk about that, and then maybe we might see if there's any open source equivalents that might be useful for developers who are listening, or people who might want to take some other steps into this field.Marjolein Pordon: I'm not connected to a particular platform. I have worked, I think, with five platforms, but as an independent tester, what we see is you have different kinds of low code. So some are in the workflow management, you have CRM systems. Webpages, ERP systems, all based on reusable codes and those can be modular.So like Mendix likes to call drag and drop.I have a component, I drag it and put it in. WordPress works the same way, but then you build a website. Those like Workflow and Aden, I think is a one, and Zapier,Chris Adams: Mm.Marjolein Pordon: and for CRM you have Creatio, and all that I mentioned are open source tooling. And I think that's important because like you said, if you share that knowledge and share those, that code, people don't have to make it their own and they don't have to invent the wheel again.That's I think important because you don't have to know everything. You need to know where to get it. But also, the energy efficiency and the environmental impact is way lower if we reuse code.Chris Adams: Okay, thank you for that. So to reiterate, so when we're talking about low code and no code, we might be talking about, so you mentioned a few platforms that people may have heard of. So one is Zapier, which is very, very common that will basically plug into an existing software as a service and then let you make a transform.And then, and there was another one you mentioned, which was N8N, which is a little bit like a kind of open source, well, open source like equivalent. I'm not sure if they're technically using an open source, it's more like source available, but the general idea is you can run it on your own servers, so you can have a similar idea of pulling information from one place and having little bits of javascript or something like that you run there, with the idea being that you have multi-tenancy, lots of people using the same things, because you'll need a little bit of code rather than having a whole running one.And you also mentioned that Mendix, which is a more visual option, and, okay, and some of them which are more specifically tied to an existing, say, enterprise system or something like that. Okay, thanks for that. Okay, so we spoke a little bit about, in the intro, some of the arguments people use about where low code might fit into this kind of, into this world of green software and reducing the total resource requirements of, of anything like this, and we've spoken about the idea of lots and lots of people using, say, shared low code.Shared components in a centralized service. Now, this implies that lots of companies have problems which are similar enough to each other that you can actually solve something like this. And when I've spoken to people in various organizations, they often, one, a common kind of theme is, "oh, our stuff is so unique that the only way we could possibly do this is by hiring a really, really expensive specialized developer because only they, only they could possibly capture the uniqueness of our organization." And this seems to suggest that's not the case. Maybe we could talk a little bit about that, like, is it that companies are over indexing on how unique they are, or where does this fit in, or are there some parts that you can do, but there's still places where you might need a specialist, for example? Maybe you could kind of share a little bit about that, actually.Marjolein Pordon: Yeah, well, it might not be a popular opinion, but I feel that companies need to convince themselves they're unique because how else are they going to stand out? And what I see with companies that embrace low code is that they say, "well, we choose to look for the components we have in common with other companies. And if we build those components, those modules, those parts that we need in low code, we have time left, we have money left, we have expertise left to build those few things that are customized." So we all know software projects takes ages, deadlines are never met, but what if we use those components that are alike, because every company has parts that align. If I sell something, I need a cash register.I need a website, all those things align. And if I need a small part that's not aligned that I want different from my competitors, then I can build, let that build by that said expensive developer. But that developer only has to do that little part for maybe a week or two weeks. And the rest is built in low code.It's energy efficient. I save money. I save time. And I invest for just those parts that I really want to stand out in. And it can also mean that you think that you're just like everything and you build everything in low code and what you save in money, you can add to invest in your company, add new products, do your marketing. So there, the, the low code embracers, I feel say, "yes, we are unique, but we use what we have in common to do in low code and what we do not have in common and stand out, we invest in that."Chris Adams: Okay, I can follow that argument now, actually. And there's maybe one question I have for you, is basically how these platforms are built, because usually, like, rather than paying to have an entire server or something like that, you might pay for kind of per use, and this is like an argument people make with serverless computing is like if you're paying for the requests or you're just paying for the amount of computation on a kind of per second basis, then you have an incentive to reduce the amount of computation you're using because you have it linked much there, there's a much clearer incentive for you to do this.Are, is this common? Do you, are there, is it fairly common for, say, low coding tools to bill for, like, provide granular billing in terms of, like, a request made or a kind of run or a workflow? Like, what are the units that people tend to use when they're looking at something like that?Marjolein Pordon: The bigger platforms I noticed have trouble or are not quite there yet to do that. But there are smaller platforms who say, "well, this is the way we do it." And I think that that's creating of awareness. What does my system do? Because I pay for it. And we all know money is a big, big incentive to say, "Oh, wow.Why am I doing this?" And when I did my, my talk in 2022, I did some research and what I noticed is what we do in social media every day. And I had a thing that if the miles from earth to the moon with all the emails we send, inclusive, reply all, the "yes, I'll see you in a minute," all those kinds of emails, there are 12 000 times from earth to the moon with a car on carbon emission.That's huge. Every single day by every mails we send and that are sent. 12 000 times, so 6 000 times to the moon and back again every single day. That's huge. When I knew that I was going through my newsletters, which one am I reading? Actually reading. Not reading? Sorry, I unsubscribe. And that's only maybe a hundred emails in the year, but still it's a hundred less. So that was for me an eye-opener. But if I had a bill every month of a hundred euros because of emails that were polluting and that I wasn't even reading or even opening,Chris Adams: Then you're going to think about that, Marjolein Pordon: then the awareness would even bigger. So I think that's it. Yeah, so I think that the platforms that are doing that billing are really good. Because that's the best way for awareness.Chris Adams: Okay, all right, thank you for that. That makes sense, and there are a few cases that, a few of them, I do believe, expose some of these metrics to you like that. At climateaction.tech, one of the communities I run, we use N8N that provides some of this for some of these things, and I've seen similar things with windmill.dev, which also gives some of these, exposes some of these numbers. So we spoke a little bit about the efficiency part. There's also one thing that came up, is, okay, if you're using one platform, for example, there's going to be there'll be things that you cannot change because they are kind of with the provider's decision.For example, if you're, like one example I can think of is, there's a service called Webflow. This is a kind of low code tool for designing websites. And they run on AWS, who for the last few years have been less ambitious on climate in terms of greening their own supply than say Microsoft or Google, based on like the things that we see in the public domain, for example, and I know there was one example, there was a project called Flowty by a chap called Fershad Irani.One thing, one thing he basically did was he looked at where you could do this, and because the thing that gets built is maybe a, say, a static website that's created by Webflow, he was like, well, if you've got this, maybe you can move this to a greener provider, for example, and, or maybe you can apply some kind of digital sustainability techniques to reduce the size of the page and do things like that, right?Now, this was one example of like a low code service, which was like, if you're going through maybe Webflow, for example, you're tied to kind of infrastructure which where, the people providing that are not as ambitious as some other groups, for example, so you're kind of stuck there. There are cases where there are options.So you can say, "well, I like what you're using, but can you move to another provider?" Or, "If you don't do this, then I will move to another provider" themselves. Maybe you could talk a little bit about like what your options are if you are using some of these tools. Because one of the things I've heard people say about no code or low coding tools is like, "yeah, they're great, but now I'm stuck inside this specific environment where I have no other way of moving away from that."Maybe you could touch on what are your options if you do want to ask your provider to improve the sustainability further down in the stack, for example?Marjolein Pordon: Well, what I noticed is one of the big platforms, Mendix, has made it a big issue. And that's because a lot of their clients pushed them and then the majority counts. Then they need to do it because they don't want big clients to walk away. Again, they are part of the chain of big companies, so the ESG legislation is probably also haunting them, which is good. But yeah, vendor locking is a big issue in low code because for example, I have an application built in Java, C#, whatever. The developer that I have or the service that I use or the company that I use, I don't like, we have issues, we part. And I just hire another Java developer, but if I do not like the platform, same with if I wouldn't like Excel or if I wouldn't like Word, everything that I did in there, I need to migrate. And it's not easy. I mean, I could open things in Google Docs, if I went from Word to Google Docs. But still, I could have issues with the outline, with the layout, things like that. So migrating from one platform to another is not easy. And the integration with platforms, like if I had used one platform and then I think, no, I don't want it, but the application can stay there, but I built something new in another platform. The connection is, is really hard because I always say, Lego wants you to use Lego and not K'nex.So, and maybe you can connect K'nex to Lego, but it won't be easy. It won't be good on usability. So yeah, the vendor locking is definitely a thing. So before you start with a local platform, wherever you need it for, do your research search on, "is this the platform I want now and in the future?"And not only on, "does it work for my company," but also "what legislations are coming, are they sustainable, what is my client group wanting?" Things like that.Chris Adams: Okay, so there's not just, so there's, you're talking, there's almost like some, a case of about alignment you need to be checking for, but also kind of influence you might have as well as actually just saying, is this really convenient for me right now, for example. Okay, all right. That's actually quite helpful.The one thing I can share with you when I was looking through this that other listeners might find interesting, especially if they are developers, there's, we've come across some tools which are open source. They provide kind of low code like environments, but they also allow you to kind of drop down into your preferred programming language.One thing I've really been quite impressed with is one organization, one project called windmill.dev. So it's an open source, kind of low code platform, but it's more like a... it's a platform where you have visual ways of working, but there's also a way that you can drop into pretty much your own language, or use any kind of docker container.And that, because the actual platform itself is open, that's one thing, but also the fact that you can drop down into languages that maybe developers might be familiar with, means that you, that reduces some of the lock in to an extent. And I think that's actually quite a promising path to go down, because yeah, you, have that separation that we know in other, in other kind of sectors.Having separation of different layers does allow for you to have more options on the table. Okay, so can I, if I can, can I just come back to one thing that you spoke about before? Because I was really surprised, and actually quite impressed by the whole thing about saying, "well, okay, we're going to use this as a, as a absolute limit in energy we can use.So the only way we can do this is by increasing, if we want to grow, then we need to make more efficient use of this rather than just say, we're just going to keep growing as fast as we can, and we're not really going to think about the resource requirements." So we spoke about this idea of, and this is one thing, an ongoing discussion in green software, which is about basically growth and the idea of the rebound effect.Are you familiar? There's a term called the rebound effect, which basically refers to this idea that if you make something more efficient, you can increase the total usage of this just because it's become more accessible to more people. And one of the key things around tools like low code is that yes, you're democratizing access to computation, but it also increases the number of people who might be making systems as well, which can have some similar effects.So maybe you could talk a little bit about the conversation and how you've seen that evolve in the Netherlands specifically, because that's somewhere where you have seen, like moratorium on new data centers being built, which has meant that you've had to, it's forced some of the conversations that are probably not happening quite so quickly in other parts of the world.And this was, yeah, you brought this up at the beginning of the podcast, so it feels like it might be worth just spending a bit more time looking into that.Marjolein Pordon: Yeah. Because if you look at data centers, we have, I think, three big ones in the Netherlands. And the one I think in Lelystad uses as much energy as the whole of Amsterdam. That's huge. One data center takes up the same amount of energy as the main city of our country. And that's huge. That's crazy if you think about it, because we cannot build at the houses we need at the moment because of the nitro legislation, because there's not energy, there's not enough water, and those data centers use water and energy of a complete city. So if we do not have that data center in the Netherlands, then we could build a complete city of Amsterdam. Think of all the houses we could build. So this is quite a discussion in the Netherlands. Arjen Lubach is a guy who makes, is a television presenter, and he makes those kind of reports on this.So also to make us aware, because they are built for a part with our money from the taxpayers. So we are aware that it gives jobs, a data center. We need it and that it's good for Google and AWS to be here, but they're not energy efficient. And well, one of the politicians said, we need them to give back because they're here in the Netherlands,they use, okay they pay for the energy and for the water, but they need to give something back also for sustainability. And what we now are looking into is that they heat water to cool down their data centers. But we could use that water to heat cities with city heating. So then we, then they should make sure that there are pipelines to the city next to the data center. And then the warm water from the data center can flow through the houses and heat them. And then when the water is cooled down, it can go back to the data center and then you have the rebound effect and you can reuse the hot water to heat the houses and the cool water can go back to the data centers. And data centers said, "no, no, that costs too much money." And we are in the Netherlands now working on a legislation that will make sure they have to do that. If you want a data center in the Netherlands, then you need to build it, and you need to build the system to heat houses. And I think that's good because then you're cooperating, then you're working together and making sure that we need the data centers, but they can give back and work together so that we can still have a better environment because if we go on like this, they had, I think, requirements for 2030 in the Netherlands. Well, we're not going to meet them. And then they said, "well, no, but we'll make them in 2040." Yeah. And in 2030, you'll say 2050. We need to do something now. And I think that by making this happen, saying to a big company like Google, "fine, you have your data center, but these are the requirements or else." It's just necessary to do this.Chris Adams: Okay, that's a very different take that we've seen in other parts of the world when discussing this actually. And what we can do is we can share some links to some of those points because I haven't heard those stats and those numbers presented in that way before actually. Marjolein, I just want to check up.So we've spoke, we've covered quite a lot of ground. We spoke about like low code and things like that. If people do want to, if they found some of this interesting and they are, they're looking to take some of their first steps into low code, into the set field. Could you maybe just like suggest a few places where people should be looking to either get either learn in their own time with some like training or if there are any particular projects that you would want to draw people's attention to for this?Marjolein Pordon: Well, for the low code part, most applications have their own playground and learning environments, which are quite good. So I would start there on the low code part. There are not many general courses on low code, but I'll check them after we're done with the podcast and then I'll, we'll add them to the show links. Chris Adams: And if there was maybe one platform people might work with or start with or is there one that you would suggest people take some of their first steps with for example or something like that if they're coming in to begin with they just want to start kicking the tires and trying it out, for example?Marjolein Pordon: Well, I would start with like a Mendix or an OutSystems or things like that, where you have a lot of information and a community behind so that you get the hang of what is low code, what are the standards that you need to work with. And if you have done like one or two of those, then you see the common grounds and then the other platforms will be a lot easier.Chris Adams: I see. Okay. All right. Well, Marjolein, thank you very much for that. If we're just coming to the end of our time now. So if people have found this interesting and they want to follow what you're doing, where would you suggest people look? Is there a website or is there maybe a pro, is there like, where, where are you online for people to follow your updates and see what you're, see what you're doing going forward?Marjolein Pordon: I'll follow LadyLowCode at my tag at Instagram and Twitter is @LadyLowCode. LinkedIn is Marjolein Pordon and my website is www.ladylowcode.com.Chris Adams: Brilliant. Okay, well, Marjolein, thank you so much for giving the, making the time to chat with us today. As we mentioned before, we'll run through this to make sure we've got show note links for all the things that we discussed here. And yeah, have a lovely week, all right? Take care, Marjolein.Marjolein Pordon: Thank you, Chris.Chris Adams: Hey everyone, thanks for listening. Just a reminder to follow Environment Variables on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And please, do leave a rating and review if you like what we're doing. It helps other people discover the show, and of course, we'd love to have more listeners.To find out more about the Green Software Foundation, please visit greensoftware.foundationon. That's greensoftware.foundation in any browser. Thanks again, and see you in the next episode!

In this episode of Environment Variables, host Chris Adams delves into the fascinating topic of the rebound effect with Vlad Coroamă, founder of the Roegen Center for Sustainability. They discuss how improvements in efficiency can sometimes paradoxically lead to increased consumption, using examples like teleworking and online shopping to illustrate the point. Through their conversation, they explore why this happens and what conditions make it more likely. Their insights shed light on the complexities of balancing technological advancement with environmental sustainability, offering valuable perspectives for anyone interested in building greener digital services.Learn more about our people:Chris Adams: LinkedIn | GitHub | WebsiteVlad Coroamă: LinkedIn | WebsiteFind out more about the GSF:The Green Software Foundation Website Sign up to the Green Software Foundation NewsletterNews:Assessing the Potential Energy Savings of a Fluidified Infrastructure | Computer [14:40]Digitalisation and the Rebound Effect - by Vlad Coroama (ICT4S School 2021) [22:45] A Methodology for Assessing the Environmental Effects Induced by ICT Services | Proceedings of the 7th International Conference on ICT for Sustainability [32:20]Events:ICT4S 2024 [41:36]Resources:Roegen Centre for Sustainability [03:00]https://pythonspeed.com/articles/software-jevons-paradox/ [05:36]The Coal Question | Online Library of Liberty  [06:34]Khazzoom–Brookes postulate - Wikipedia [10:02]Sustainability in Computing Education: A Systematic Literature Reviewhttps://miro.com/app/board/o9J_lET2Yco=/?moveToWidget=3074457359170346418&cot=14  If you enjoyed this episode then please either:Follow, rate, and review on Apple PodcastsFollow and rate on SpotifyWatch our videos on The Green Software Foundation YouTube Channel!Connect with us on Twitter, Github and LinkedIn!TRANSCRIPT BELOW:Vlad Coroama: When there is rebound, but if your digital service makes the activity sort of more affordable or simply more desirable, and it will be consumed more, but it will have changed in such a way that the footprint of the new activity, the modified one, is much smaller than the original one. And then although you might have rebound, the overall balance will be net positive.Chris Adams: Hello, and welcome to Environment Variables, brought to you by the Green Software Foundation. In each episode, we discuss the latest news and events surrounding green software. On our show, you can expect candid conversations with top experts in their field who have a passion for how to reduce the greenhouse gas emissions of software.I'm your host, Chris Adams.Hello, and welcome to another episode of Environment Variables. Where we bring you the latest news and updates from the world of sustainable software development. I'm your host, Chris Adams. When we talk about green software, the notion of efficiency comes up quite a lot. Take two forms of efficiency explicitly called out by the Green Software Foundation, software efficiency and hardware efficiency.In the first case, you're talking about how much energy is needed to perform a given amount of computation. And in the second case, you're talking about how much hardware might need to be created by extracting material from the environment, refining it, then turning it into electronics that we run computation on.In isolation, it's quite hard to argue against efficiency, and we can point to literally years of data showing how increases in efficiency in computing have blunted what might otherwise be eye-watering increases in the amount of energy consumption and other resources we have gone through in absolute terms.Thing is, efficiency has second order effects too, because making things more efficient can make them more accessible too. Increasing the number of people who can use them. And we can point back to published work in 1865, observing this happen with coal-powered steam engines. So the common term for this is the Rebound Effect. And joining me today to explore what it means for greening digital services is Vlad Coroama of the Roegen Center for Sustainability.I first came across Vlad's work when at a green cloud procurement workshop in 2019 held by the European Commission in Brussels. And over the years, I've had his writing and presentations about the rebound effect and digital sustainability, some of the most incisive and accessible work on the topic, on the subject.Before I embarrass him further though, I think it might make sense to give him a bit of space to introduce himself. So Vlad, thank you so much for joining. I've been looking forward to this. Can I give you a few minutes to introduce yourself before we get into the meat of it?Vlad Coroama: Hi Chris, many thanks for your kind intro, of course, for having me on your program. So I'm Vlad, the founder of the Roegen Center for Sustainability, which is a small company based in Zürich, Switzerland which tries to do a research, actually, more research than consultancy in the field of computing and sustainability, or if you want more from a, more from a deployment perspective, digitalization and sustainability.Actually before that, this quite recent and before that for my entire life, I've been an academic and I've worked in the fields of computing and sustainability and also the more technical one of smart energy for about two decades now. And with both these hats on, so both with the more sort of hands on engineering system developing hat on, and with the more theoretical hat, what my work, which of course in the beginning, it was not so clear where the path leads to, but it became more and more clear that I want to understand how we can both make computing more sustainable, which is if you want perhaps green IT to use a general term, but also to see, and perhaps in my view, more importantly, to see how we can deploy computing or digitalization again from a deployment perspective, to induce environmental benefits across our societies and economies. So in other sectors, sometimes that it's often called Green by IT and these indirect effects, as you said, it's not only about direct effects, this is very much about indirect effects, are, or can be, so much more powerful than the direct footprint. And unfortunately, it's not only the positive effect. So it's not only how can we do, you know, society and economy more sustainable, by the way, society, societally sustainable as well. We'll talk mainly about the environment today, but much of what we discuss applies to societal implications as well, but to come back, so it's not only positive effects.We also have, unfortunately, this indirect detrimental effects to sustainability, both societal, I mean, we've seen elections and so on, right? But also environmentally. That is, computing or ICT can induce more energy and material consumption, increased emissions, increased pollution, and so on in other sectors.And with this, I think we sort of arrive at the topic of our discussion today, which is rebound.Chris Adams: Indeed. Yes. Thank you very much for that, Vlad. So, just if you're new to this podcast, my name is Chris Adams. I am the executive director of the Green Web Foundation. That's a Dutch-based nonprofit focused on reaching an entirely fossil-free internet by 2030. I'm also the, one of the policy chairs of the Green Software Foundation's policy working group.And here's a quick reminder, we're going to be covering a few papers and a few projects and links and websites. We have show notes at the end of every single episode, and there'll also be a transcript. So if there's something you miss, we will have that available so you can kind of catch up with this or basically submit pull requests if you see things you need to correct. All right, Vlad, are you good to go? I think, should we start with this? Okay, then. So we spoke about this. The topic of this is Greening the Rebound Effect. And I've touched on what the rebound effect is, but for the uninitiated who want to learn more than what I just said, what is the rebound effect?And maybe you could tell us a little bit about where it comes from and whether it's a new thing.Vlad Coroama: Okay. Thanks. So as you said in the introduction, your introduction, the very first time that we know this has been mentioned, it was in 1865 by the British economist, William Stanley Jevons, who wrote a book, The Coal Question, it's called, and it was about what we today call rebound effect, we called it such back then.And by the way, this is a very cool thing, as a computer scientist, you seldomly get to cite, you know, a paper older than 20, 30 years, so it's really, it's really nice when writing a paper, you know, to cite something from the 19th century. So what Jevons noticed was that the more efficient steam engines and other, you know, coal using machinery was becoming in the 19th century.At first glance, paradoxically, the overall coal consumption was not decreasing, but increasing and increasing at a very larger rate. So this is not necessarily counterintuitively, but yet it requires an explanation why. And of course the explanation is that the amount of engines was increasing becausethe more coal, the more efficient machines were becoming, and by the way, some of these machines were steam engines that were helping in the very coal extraction. So coal extraction itself was becoming more efficient and thus cheaper. So both the running the machines was becoming cheaper and accessing coal was cheaper.And this means you could deploy the coal for many more machines doing the same stuff that had been done before and for entirely new applications. And this is basically what we now call the direct free buffer, which means a good or a service becomes more efficient because the energy is more efficient or some other material that flows into it.So it is more efficient to produce that good or service, thus it becomes more affordable. And thus, as we know from neoclassic, since Adam Smith, basically the demand for it tends to increase. So that's the first phenomenon. And this, by the way, lay dormant for over a century and late seventies, early eighties of the 20th century, of course, due to new researchers, Khazzoom and Brookes, Chris Adams: Ah, yeah. Vlad Coroama: we rediscovered the phenomenon in wave of the two oil crises, was the context.And basically they talked about the same, about the direct rebound effect. And then this developed also to what we now would call the indirect rebound effect, which is actually an umbrella term for a variety of mechanisms and phenomena. But all have in common that something becomes more accessible in a way.Some resource is being saved or is being used more efficiently. And that resource can be energy, but it can be any material. But it can also be immaterial stuff, such as time, and this we call time rebound. So if a technology saves us time, we'll do something with that time that likely will also require energy and produce emission.Or if it saves us money, as before, we might not spend those money on more of the same good. But, and this is called the income effect, and this is another type of indirect rebound effect, we might use the disposable income to, you know, do something else that in itself might be energy intensive and, you know, responsible for lots of emissions.Chris Adams: Okay. So, so we've got the Jevons. So there's Jevons paradox where it initially started with, and I believe you spoke about Khazzoom and Brookes. I think it's, is it called the posh term, the Khazzoom–Brookes postulate? Something like that. It's like the kind of term you'd use at a cocktail party to impress people.And then you've also described, there's a few different flavors of rebound that we might talk about, and they might have different degrees of magnitude. And this is something we're going to, we can talk about a little bit later. So in time, you know, if I'm, if I save a bunch of money by buying a bunch of things at, say, a supermarket, a cheap supermarket, I might end up spending a bunch of money either eating out or buying, getting coffee, you know, posh coffee and stuff like that.So that's, those are the, some of the rebound effects you're talking about. Okay. All right. Thank you for that potted history there, actually. And I didn't realize that it was so much based around the seventies, because presumably that's like relation to the oil crisis and when people suddenly started caring a lot more about efficiency.Right?Vlad Coroama: Yes. And actually they saw that and then also a more fuel efficient cars came around also in the U S and, but still the overall fuel consumption, not maybe short term during the, you know, the crazy months of the oil crisis, but over several years, the oil consumption, the petrol and so on was still increasing.And that's how, so for a similar sort of trigger as Jevons, a century earlier, they started looking at it, how does this happen? And what they saw is people drive their cars more.Chris Adams: I see. Okay. Thank you for that. And, so when we're talking about things becoming cheaper and more accessible and more widespread. It's not a huge leap of the imagination to think about things like electronics getting cheaper or more widespread, even cloud computing becoming cheap or more widespread.So I guess maybe it's worth me kind of moving to this. So if we're gonna talk about things like the rebound effect or things like this, or why efficiency gains matter in the context of building digital services, maybe I could actually ask like, why does this matter when we talk about digital computing?And why does it matter in a world where we are seeing more laws being passed now and a kind of influx of new kind of legislation or people setting new norms about this?Vlad Coroama: So it, it matters, as you say, of course, this happens within computing as well, or within ICT, let's say, I think it's Koomey's law that, that says,Chris Adams: Is the network halves every 18 months or something, isn't it?Vlad Coroama: Yeah, it's that basically we are, or a consequence of Koomey's law, a consequence, not directly Koomey's law, is that we use all our gains for more computing and not for, you know, less energy intensive computing. And this of course makes sense. But the problem I think with computing or what does it mean, the, the big challenge of computing, but also environmentally, what can become an issue is that it's general purpose technology and that it induces efficiency, not only within computing, but also, and crucially outside it.So we, when we talk about the rebound effect of, again, computing/ICT/digitalization, choose the term that you prefer... we have to distinguish between the rebound within ICT itself, more computing, perhaps, you know, more cloud, whatever, it's more affordable. But crucially, I think also the rebound outside this in all the other sectors that digitalization makes more efficient.Chris Adams: I see. So there's, so in the context of digital, one thing you're saying is that, yes, there is, obviously we should be mindful of an efficiency argument, but because if you just only talk about efficiency rather than consumption, you can lose sight of the full picture and. If you take a second to step outside, the efficiency that you might see at a kind of digital level could also have likeabsolute increases or decreases accordingly. So you should be, so we need to take, we need to be looking at the two of these basically.Vlad Coroama: Yes, exactly.Chris Adams: Okay, cool. Thank you for that. That's actually, okay, that's quite helpful. And I suppose when we talk about efficiency, it's worth looking at some of the numbers, for example.So we have seen, say computing get quite a bit more efficient, but we've also seen, basically, we've also seen, for example, some of the hyperscalers, we've seen hyperscale companies like say Microsoft, Google and Amazon, it's not like they've stayed the same size and they haven't grown.We ;have seen them growing, even as things get more efficient. So these are one of the things where we need to be somewhat aware of, yes, the absolute figures in this as well as the efficiency part here. And we've spoken about how, there's, digital can have an impact on the outside world, and you might be talking to things like, so like transportation examples or like ride hailing, things like that is what you're referring?Maybe you could expand on some of those. Cause I think these are the things that I've seen you talk about quite eloquently in other places, actually.Vlad Coroama: Yes, because there is the hope, right? And very often we have the claims that ICT or digitalization, let's say now, makes so much of the world more efficient by coordinating it better, by, you know, finding patterns, by we all know how Google did its cloud more efficient and so on. But then there are many other fields outside.And in all of them, I see a pattern of how in the beginning everyone says, or a lot of the voices say, "Hey, great, you know, now we have your efficiency. Now it will be so much better." It's a sort of a techno-utopianism, if you want. I will give two-three examples. The one I will start with this one, I'm writing now actually about the rebound effects of teleworking.And I've, so I've been reviewing many studies and it's very funny because the very early studies, teleworking has been around long before sort of the World Wide Web made it into the homes. Since the 70s, they started talking about this. And the first papers have titles such as, you know, 'Traffic Reduction by Telecommuting' and then similar things.And then through the work of Jack Niles, it was, and especially Patricia Mokhtarian in the nineties already, they started to understand, "oops, wait, wait, wait, there is also lots of rebound effect." And today's papers have titles such as, you know, 'Does home-based telework reduce household total travel?' So lots of questions marked there.You know, does telecommuting promote sustainable travel and physical activity? Does telecommuting reduce commuting emissions? And so on. These all, and I have many more, but I will not go into them. But so the phenomenon that happens there is that, yes, teleworking in first instance, of course, if you don't travel to work and travel is energy intensive, much more so than, you know, the little bit of energy that we consume now to have a call, it saves energy in the sum.But then, because you have more time, because you are more flexible, you start, and because before you used to do other things while going to work or coming, you used to have multi purpose trips. So you, I don't know, dropping kids at school, you know, going to the gym, doing grocery, whatever. those other reasons still exist.So you will still undertake other trips and much more so than you have subtle effects. If you only need to commute, say, twice per week to work, you might be very tempted to move much farther away from work, you know, in a nice countryside where the kids can play, you know, in nature and safely and so on.And then you only commute twice instead of five. Well, four or five times per week, but for much longer distance and perhaps no, you can no longer do it by public transportation because you're not urban anymore, but you have to do it by car. And that's a classic. And this became more and more clear. So teleworking is not clear actually now whether, you know, the net effect is a positive or negative.And I will not go into this detail for others, but we have this for e-commerce or slash online shopping as well. Again, lots of enthusiasm environmentally in the beginning, and then you see that many other things happen. You know, you, all of a sudden you order much more. It's so easy to order from the couch at 11 pm, you know, you don't need to go to the store. So all the consumption increases, or now more recently with AI, with autonomous vehicles. And this is perhaps the last example I want to give, and I think you've heard this before because it's a favorite example of mine. Also in the beginning, we had lots of enthusiasm, you know, how the cars will like coordinate with each other.And then, you know, they, at some point we won't need traffic lights anymore. So then don't need to brake and waste energy and then reaccelerate. But this is all peanuts. What actually will happen is that, you know, they will substitute, autonomous vehicles will substitute a lot of public transportation because it will be so much more convenient to be driven by car and be able to work in the car or, you know, read a book, discuss whatever. So use the time efficiently.Chris Adams: Okay. So you spoke about these, there's quite a few examples then of the rebound effect resulting in basically first in like direct efficiency leading to increases in usage in other ways, with some kind of actually quite vivid examples there. And that's, that feels like a nice segue to talk about, okay, we have this idea around rebound.And there's different kinds of rebound that can take place. But as I understand it, there are certain conditions that make rebound more likely or increase the effects of rebound versus, making them somewhat smaller, for example. Maybe we could talk a little bit about that because I remember hearing about the kind of like vivid example of autonomous driving.Like you mentioned, there was, yes, it increases the, it lowers the threshold of you doing things to the point that, you know, there's there's a famous study about someone sending autonomous cars to just pick up a sandwich they left at home because it was so easy to do now. And that's obviously not going to be a sustainability win.So maybe you could talk a little bit about when you do see rebound and what conditions make it more likely to happen versus maybe when it's not so likely to happen, perhaps.Vlad Coroama: Yeah, there are, I do not have general rules to provide an answer. So I cannot tell you this precise, you know, class of applications or yeah, digital services are more likely to rebound than the other not. But I can give you a couple of hints or perhaps examples, and the easiest is to start with that, with the example of the vacuum cleaner that you mentioned earlier, and which is of course outside digitalization, but I think it's very nice to understand the phenomenon. When the bagless cleaners emerged to, Dyson was the first on roads to invent them.They also became so much more efficient. So they used to consume 1.5 to 2 kilowatt of power, and now they are 4-500 watts. So a factor of it's like 20 to 25%, a factor of four to five, reduced power. And the question is, do we vacuum much more? So it is of course, cheaper to run them. Do we vacuum much more?Probably we do it a bit because, you know, they are also more convenient. They are cordless very often and so it's easier to grab them. But certainly this rebound is relatively small and not, you know, 400% it doesn't overcompensate with certainty, because, well, you only need so much to vacuum your house and it's probably also not the most people... the favorite activity for most.So one of this thing is when there is something like, when the demand is satisfied,Chris Adams: Ah, like an upper limit.Vlad Coroama: not have rebound, you need to not have the rebound mechanism. And this mechanism being often, not always, again, it can be with time or transaction costs or other things, but often it is monetary.You save money and then you, you know, consume more of that good. And in this case, if the demand is satisfied, then you don't need more. So, for example, smart heating in a home, to come again now back to computing, if you have smart heating, I mean, we used to have our homes up to the seventies, even at 13, 14 degrees centigrade in winter.We don't do it anymore. We all have whatever 19, 20, 21, wherever we feel comfortable and we don't need more than that. So, a smart heating system will make our, our heating more efficient, then we'll save 10%. And that can be financially quite interesting. We'll not use those money to hit more because there is no need for it.I mean, we might perhaps, you know, let a bit more fresh air in and thus waste a bit more energy, but it will certainly not compensate the savings. So that would be one such example where at least a directory bound. It is, is unlikely,Chris Adams: Ah, I see. I'm really glad you mentioned the vacuum one because I remember watching your talk just after I bought a cordless vacuum cleaner myself, and I remember saying like, "okay, there's an upper limit to how clean my flat can actually be." And like, yeah, it's a lot more fun to use, but yeah, I, it doesn't make me... making me slightly more efficient at vacuum cleaning does, it didn't double how much I enjoy vacuum cleaning, right?Well, I might enjoy it more, but there's an absolute upper amount of vacuum cleaning hours I'm prepared to invest into my flat, for example. Okay. So that's, so there's this upper limit of satisfaction that if you have something like that, that's maybe one kind of hint that you might be looking for, for example, and we might be able to kind of take some ideas into another domain domain for that.Vlad Coroama: And if you want, I can give another such hint. So when there is rebound, but if you sort of, if your digital service makes the activity sort of more affordable or simply more desirable and it will be consumed more. But it will have changed in such a way that the footprint of sort of the new activity, the modified one, is much smaller than the original. And then although you might have rebound, the overall balance will be net positive.And again, a short example outside of digitalization is LED lamps, right? There is certainly, once you have LED lamps, there is certainly a rebound in the, in a sort of light rebound, in the amount of light that you're using. You will, because you know, they take six watts and not 60 anymore. You are not so concerned with like turning it off anymore.So there is some light rebound, but in terms of energy, the rebound is really small because even if you leave it like twice as much, you will still save 80 percent and not 90 percent, but still the net save will be... and the same in digitalization. We did, for example, a conference for it in 2009 between two continents.And that conference happened at two sites simultaneously in Nagoya, Japan, and in Davos in Switzerland. Of course, it was a seven hour difference, so there was just a four hour common slot in the Swiss morning and the Japanese afternoon. And why we did this? Because for a conference, the main environmental impact are flights of participants to the conference, and in particular, intercontinental flights.So the hope was to save intercontinental flights. And according to our survey afterwards, we have indeed succeeded to save some, around 80 intercontinental flights of people who would have flown to the other side of the world. And we induced much more, around 200 intracontinental flights. But you know, a short haul flight has such a smaller footprint than a long haul flight that although we had many more participantsand many more flights. Because those flights were much shorter, the overall impact was still positive. And again, we only talk direct rebound here. I like to stress this point. The system boundaries, as they say in environmental sciences, the system boundaries of indirect rebound are basically the words. So it is very, very tough and we do not have yet the right tools to profoundly assess the, you know, the overall impact of digital technologies, unfortunately. And this is one of the areas I'm most interested in.Chris Adams: I see. Okay. Can we just dive into that a little bit more before we move into the next topic? So you spoke, we spoke a little bit about say, forms of rebound where there's an upper limit where there is, it's like me having a more efficient vacuum cleaner is one thing. And then you mentioned this other thing where there is like,where you're somehow, where the savings end up being kind of almost somewhat circular. So if I'm, maybe I can reduce, say the cost of cloud computing, you mentioned that in many cases, because I've made it cheaper, I would then recirculate those into doing more rather than actually reducing the total energy use.Is there anything, have you, maybe you could expand a little bit more on that part, because when I think about things like, say, AI, or I think about some kind of, some things related to cloud computing, we can totally see this, and there are very much arguments basically being made right now, that say, "Oh, well, all you need to do is focus on your cloud bill going down by half," for example, "and then that will be, and that will achieve your savings."Well, that's what you need to care about." And it sounds like, if I was to focus a bunch of time into halving my cloud bill, I'd then have a product manager or my CEO say, "well, okay, look at all this, look at all this money we've saved. Let's reinvest it into doing more so we can do, so we can have more of a competitive advantage in our particular field," for example.Vlad Coroama: Yeah, of course, if you want... reducing your impact means always reducing your overall impact and not becoming more efficient. So in a sort of narrow view of what you asked, if your manager came to you and said, "hey, let's be twice as efficient," the answer should be "no, let's overall consume less." This being said of course, it's again, it's very difficult because AI in particular, and AI is the most uncertain domain, as you very well know, or certainly one of the most uncertain how it will develop in terms of energy consumption.And so it might go through the roof or it might not, you know, and it will depend on so many factors, but it also has, it brings about, and I keep coming back to the indirect effect. Sorry for that. But, you know, you cannot forget them. So I hear very often the argument of sobriety, of digital sobriety.And of course, it's good because to achieve various, you know, goals, whether they're achievable or not, or any goal, any limit we want to achieve, of course, all sectors have to go down. But then AI can use substantial societal or environmental benefits when it's environmental benefits, and if you can really put your finger on them, then it's easy.Then you, then it's a no-brainer. Of course, it's worth spending, you know, the additional data center to train our models better. Also, by the way, the energy consumption in our devices for a model inference. Because, for example, I have now a paper under review where we measured a bakery chain in Germany and they deployed AI to predict the demand for bread and thus to reduce food waste and the results show, so we made a sort of a benefit-cost analysis.And the benefits, energetically speaking, are so much larger than the costs of deploying that AI system, training it, inferencing and so on. So when there is, then it's a bit of a no brainer. Unfortunately, you sometimes have, you know, societal benefit at an environmental cost. And then it again becomes harder because then it's a scientifically non-answerable question, then it's an ideological question, right?"How important?" Or a value-based question. But to come back to actually your question, because I think I went perhaps a little too far away from that, I keep, I keep bringing the indirect effects because I think they are so underrepresented in the discourse, both academic, but even more so societal.So your question was about the efficiency of, or could you say it again? Sorry.Chris Adams: Yes, so the question I'm putting is, say, if I want to reduce emissions, it's very easy for me to just talk about, "look at how much more efficient I can be" if I'm a developer, I often think that, you know, I've, I'm incentivized and I am rewarded by making things more efficient. It feels like, if I just focus on halving that cloud bill, for example, there's a risk that they'll just bring that cloud bill back up again, for example, or bring the environmental impact back up again by using some of the savings to do new things.So the thing I would need to, things we'd kind of need to be able to do is basically have this notion that, okay, we do need to be on a kind of glide path downwards in absolute terms, for example. We can't just talk about emissions intensity, because this is a common thing that you see being, that's coming up in quite a few places.And this is something that organizations tend to report now a bit more as a way to avoid talking about absolute figures. But it feels like if we're going to do this, we need to look at absolute consumption, just as much as efficiency. And efficiency is one of the strategies you would use to reduce consumption in total, in absolute terms.Right?Vlad Coroama: Yes. Yes. Absolutely.Chris Adams: Brilliant. Okay. Thank you for clearing that part up. I...Vlad Coroama: Well, it was more you clearing it... But yes.Chris Adams: This is part of what we're now doing is we, running through some of these to make sure that I understand it and i, when I'm doing this, I'm basically standing, this is helps me explain it to other people as well. So this is a, yeah, this is totally okay.All right. So we spoke a little bit about rebound. There's a few different flavors of this that we had. And you touched on this idea that if you just look at one aspect, then you can miss some of the kind of wider systemic issues and systemic impacts. And this feels like a nice kind of segue to talk about some of the other work that you've been doing, because it's actually where I came across some of your other work about trying to quantify the environmental impact of a service across multiple areas, basically.And I found this really helpful where, when I first read it in 2020, because it found, it provided a somewhat kind of rigorous way to help address the fact that a lot of the time people will overstate either the savings, overstate the damage being done in this, in these areas. And I think the name of the paper was, sorry, it's a bit dry.It's Methodology for Assessing the Environmental Impacts Induced by ICT Services. But one thing that was really nice about this is you would say, "well, you need to think about how much more efficient something might be, but you also need to think about what kind of take up that might be for something."So, and all of these things here. So. Maybe I could actually talk to you a little bit about this because it's very, very common to see very, very kind of extraordinary claims about efficiency or extraordinary claims about savings under perfect circumstances. So maybe we could talk about like, when you look at this stuff, are there common mistakes or common kind of omissions to look out for when you see people talking about the savings delivered by maybe a new service, for example, so you can help develop some kind of intuition? Because this is one thing I think we don't really have the language to talk about this right now. And I think one thing that your papers did was actually introduce some helpful terms or some helpful language to talk about some of this.Vlad Coroama: Yes, in all honesty, I... first disclaimer, we didn't provide a cookbook recipe how to do it and how to arrive at a net impact. Again, system boundaries are the word and we don't yet have the tools for that, but this being said, you can try avoiding the most common and sort of low hanging pitfalls if you want.And perhaps the most common is that, that you read is, you know, a juxtaposition or direct footprint of a service and the benefits in fitting uses. So direct footprint, which is by definition, it's inherently negative from an environmental perspective, as almost any human activity, and the other side, the indirect benefits.But then conveniently, and I'm not saying that this is necessarily purposeful, it can be out of naivety or, you know, but it is convenient for getting the indirect negative impacts. So you always have, so I think that's a helpful way of thinking about it. You have the direct footprint, negative by definition, and then you have indirect effects, which are both positive and negative. Ideally, you would try to cover them both. The very sort of high level indirect ones, which are systemic, you cannot cover. But you can at least take care of the direct rebound, for example.Chris Adams: All right. Thanks for that. So you spoke about, so there's leaving omissions from here. There's one thing I've seen that in a few places, so I've seen like, say, caching services basically say, "well, look how much, look at the savings you've received," for example, without telling you the full amount. And this is something that I think Uber have released.They've shown, there's now a calculator to see how much cleaner your ride would be if you use an EV car versus another one, but you don't see the absolute numbers, for example. I mean, what's wrong with this? Like, is this a thing that... is this a good idea or should, or if you were to do this properly, like, how would you make this more representative, for example, when you see examples like this?Vlad Coroama: Well, I don't know those particular calculators. I haven't used them or seen them. But from how, what I understand about them, it's very often a question of baseline or of the counterfactual. What is your counterfactual? If I hadn't used this, you know, for example, green taxi service in your example, what would I have done?If the assumption, if the baseline is, I would have used, you know, a very inefficient internal combustion engine-powered car instead, then, of course, depending also a bit on the electricity mix of the grid, usually it will be positive, right? The overall impact. But the thing is, it might have replaced public transportation or no trip at all.And then it's a rebound effect. So if I am keen, you know, I am taking a taxi and you know, it just tells me, "Hey, if you now take the green one instead of this," then I would say it's probably a reasonable assumption. We have some production issues, so from a life cycle assessment, of course, it's a bit complex, than it's probably pictured, but in essence, it's probably not incorrect.But overall, what happens is that if a taxi ride is cheaper, or if I have what is called a moral hazard, so I have a clear conscious, "oh, I'm going green so that I can take it," and then I'm taking one that would not have existed in the counterfactual, then of course the net effect is there.Chris Adams: Okay. So that last part is like, I get an Uber or I get an electric taxi and, so I sort of, to a restaurant and I then decided to eat a big fat steak, as an example, like as a way to kind of balance these out. Like there's maybe an indirect, there's a direct saving, but systemically, I still have created more of an emissions. Like, I'm not going to try and do the calculations between steak and a drive, but you get the general idea.Okay. So that's where some of that comes in. You mentioned this thing called a counterfactual. And I think this is actually one thing that might be quite helpful because we've seen a number of papers and reports being used to talk about how, you know, you can achieve sustainability through AI and we've seen them written in, say, in the early 2010s or even the early 2020s.And then there is often a lot of interest in talking about how good something could be, but there seems to be less, historically, we've been less good at tracking whether those savings have been delivered. Is this something that maybe you could talk a little bit about that? Cause I remember you write, I saw recently you wrote a little bit about the, this kind of reporting, the fact that there's a kind of gap in how we talk about this and the following through part, maybe you could just follow, just expand on, on this and why you need this, this extra information to kind of see if things are working basically.MmVlad Coroama: Yes. So for AI, I think it's a bit too early to tell, we have not yet seen like a series or I'm not aware of any, a series of studies or even like one old study that made some predictions and the authors didn't come back to it to say whether anything was delivered on. And I think it's not also a typical, like, computing thing that we do lots of predictions. And as the old adage goes, "predictions are difficult, particularly about the future."Chris Adams: Yeah.Vlad Coroama: Yeah So first, you know, when our predictions were right, we might like to go back and highlight this that we were right already back then. And otherwise we might conveniently forget that we made those predictions.For the computing domain generally and not AI, because again, AI, I think it's a bit too young for that phenomenon to be seen one way or the other, but for computing generally, there is a track record of various, both companies and sort of lobby groups of the IT industry or of the telecom industry doing sort of predictions and then continuing. One very known example is GESI, Global E Sustainability Initiative that published every couple of, every four to five years, starting 2008.They publish a series of studies. The first one was called SMART 2020, then SMARTER 2020, then SMARTER 2030, and so on. And there are predictions, the first two ones are called SMART 2020 and SMARTER 2020 because they're where to the year 2020.Chris Adams: Ah, I see.Vlad Coroama: And and they predicted many gigatons that would be saved through digital technologies.I think the first one was 7 point something and the second study around 9. 1 or 2. And that's, that's quite a chunk of the sort of fifth of CO2 equivalent that the humankind puts into the atmosphere every year. So that's a very substantial chunk. And if that would have been true, it would have been amazing.But now, well, 2020 is past, heh, and we published newer studies, but they didn't look, you know, how did this stand up to the test of time?Chris Adams: Wow. Okay. That's, that feels like quite a gap that we probably should be trying to close. If we're going to be talking about, we're doing research in this and seeing what is going to be effective as time is ticking down. Right. Vlad, that's actually, I really want to dive down in that rabbit hole, but we're coming up to time.So I'm going to have to be a good boy and try my best to stay inside the time we do have. Vlad, we've covered quite a lot of interesting areas and dived into quite a lot, and I've shared a couple of links. The show notes have series of links to the papers and things like that. If people do want to continue this work or continue following what you're up to, where should people be looking beyond just the show notes of this podcast for example? Is there a website that we should point people to, or do you have a online presence you would direct people's attention to?Vlad Coroama: Well, anyone, if, I mean, you can post my, a link to my LinkedIn account, if anyone wants to contact, I'd be happy to, you know, to engage in conversation and continuing discussions, this is what I do. So other than this, there is no value that is specifically say on rebound effects of digital technologies.I wouldn't know of any, but there is, for example, the ICT4S conference. So the ICT4Sustainability, that, that conference that started back in 2013 and where indirect effects of ICT are quite a powerful presence. This year's edition will be end of June in Stockholm, Sweden, and I'm co-organizing with a couple of other researcher.So, with Mattias Höjer at KTH, with Tristan Brehmer in Lancaster, Charlie Wilson in Oxford, and Dan Schien in Bristol, we are organizing a workshop on this very topic, indirect effects of... called wait, I'm no longer sure what acronym stands for, but something with indirect something. So a workshop on assessing indirect effects.So there are a couple of venues that are scientifically dedicated to this, but I, there is no unfortunately, no like, you know, portal where everyone has the topic.Chris Adams: Like Institute of Rebound. Yeah. Okay. And yourself, I understand that there's the organization that you work for. The Roegen, is it Roegen Center of Sustainability? That's the one. Yep. So that's roegen.ch is the place people would look to if they want to see any future publications and research in this field from you.Brilliant. Well, Vlad, thank you so much. I've been looking forward to this and I have to admit, I'm a bit of a fan boy. I've really enjoyed a bunch of the papers and things you've been publishing over the years, and I really hope you continue to do them because they come up with really nice examples that I can help explain to other people.So thank you once again. And yeah, hope you have a wonderful week. Take care, Vlad.Cheers. You're too kind, Chris. Thank you as well. And by the way, thanks for your great work that you and your foundation are doing. So thanks for that as well. And thanks for having me. Cheers.Cool! Thank you. Hey everyone, thanks for listening. Just a reminder to follow Environment Variables on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And please do leave a rating and review if you like what we're doing. It helps other people discover the show, and of course, we'd love to have more listeners.To find out more about the Green Software Foundation, please visit greensoftware.foundation. That's greensoftware.foundation in any browser. Thanks again, and see you in the next episode!

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We're gearing up for the return of Carbon Hack 24 happening from March 18 to April 8, 2024. This year we're focusing on the Impact Framework, aiming to innovate how we measure the environmental impact of software. It's a chance for engineers, designers, and creators to dive into challenges, ranging from plugin development to non-technical content creation. We're inviting students too, with special categories just for them. Join us to push the boundaries of sustainable software. For details on how to register or to become a sponsor, check out the link below:Register at https://grnsft.org/hack/podcast 👈Find out more about Impact Framework:Environment Variables Episode 58: BETA Impact FrameworkIf you enjoyed this episode then please either:Follow, rate, and review on Apple PodcastsFollow and rate on SpotifyWatch our videos on The Green Software Foundation YouTube Channel!Connect with us on Twitter, Github and LinkedIn!TRANSCRIPT BELOW:Asim Hussain: Hey everyone, Asim here. Carbon Hack is back this year. The hackathon will take place from Monday, March the 18th to Monday, April the 8th, 2024. Carbon Hack 24 is all about redefining the way we measure software to reduce its environmental impact. footprint. At the heart of this hackathon is Impact Framework, an open source tool that lets you compute and report the environmental impacts of software applications accurately.It takes observations you can easily gather about running systems such as CPU utilization, page views, or number of installs, or anything else, and converts them into environmental impacts like carbon, water, energy, air quality, in an auditable, replicable, verifiable, and transparent way. With Impact Framework, if we can observe something, we can measure its impacts.If you want to find out more about what the Impact Framework does, you can listen to episode 58 of Environment Variables. Why the focus on measurement, you might ask? Well, we've learned that at the intersection of software and sustainability, measurement is the compass guiding our way. How we measure software's environmental impact is more than just a technical detail. It's the key to unlocking the magnitude of change we can achieve. Here's the challenge. Alone or in small teams, participants will have the freedom to choose from a variety of prize categories, including Best Plugin. Impact Framework itself is just very, very simple. The power of Impact Framework is its plugin ecosystem. We've got plugins which take CPU utilization and turn it into energy. We've got plugins that take energy and turn it into carbon. We need more and more and more of these plugins to be built for my statement I said previously to be true, to take any observation and convert it into environmental impacts. We need plugins for that. So one of our prize categories is best plugin. We want you to build the best plugin you can build. If you submit your plugin idea on the Hack website, We actually nurture you, we help you, we guide you towards designing a plugin which has the best possible chance of winning.There's another prize category called Beyond Carbon, which I'm very, very excited about. If you can build a plugin which outputs an environmental impact that's not carbon, for instance, water. You can submit your solution to the Beyond Carbon prize category. We really want to move the conversation beyond carbon this year. That's my personal goal. This year, we've also got prize categories for non technical contributions. We've got a best content category. This is a category for people who would create the best piece of content, be it a how to video or a tutorial or a written booklet on how to use Impact Framework in any context, be it for a particular domain or in a generic sense, that's what best content is all about. How we're also expanding best content is if you're going to write a case study that uses Impact Framework to measure the impact of something and you write up that case study in such a way that it becomes a learning resource that also counts for best content as well. We also want to encourage people to contribute to the framework itself. The framework is a piece of code which sits on the Green Software Foundation's GitHub repository. And if you can contribute to that code by going to our GitHub repository and picking up an issue and saying, I would like to work on this issue for the hackathon. Please go right ahead and we'll nurture you, we'll guide you, we'll support you because we want to make sure your contribution is accepted. But that is how you can submit the best contribution category. And this year we're thrilled to open our doors to students. We have two prize categories for students. We have an undergraduates category. If your entire team is made up of undergraduates, you can then win a set separate accessory prize for undergraduates.And again, if your entire team is made up of under 18s, we also have another prize just for you, an under 18s prize. So how can you become part of CarbonHack24? It's as simple as signing up on our website at grnsft.org/hack/podcast that's grnsft.org GRN SFT. org forward slash hack forward slash podcast.There you'll find all the details about the event registration and upcoming live sessions where I'll be talking every single Monday, giving you an overview of the hackathon, what's going on the latest information and just taking you some of the latest projects. This is your opportunity to be part of a global movement that's shaping the future of sustainable software. We also extend a warm invitation to organizations that align with our vision to join us as sponsors. This is your chance to witness early stage innovations, connect with talented individuals, and showcase your commitment. If you're interested in sponsorship, visit the same link, which is grnsft.org/hack/podcast. I'm thrilled about CarbonHack24. We're going to explore innovative ways to measure the environmental impact of software. Join us for three weeks of exciting challenges where engineers, designers, and content creators will use Impact Framework to measure software's environmental footprint.We can't wait to see what innovations and solutions emerge from this incredible event. See you there.

Gabi Beyer and Brendan Kamp from re:cinq join host Chris Adams to discuss the challenges of measuring carbon emissions in personal laptops and cloud services, as well as the complexities of quantifying environmental impact. They also talk about recent policy developments on the right to repair and reducing embodied carbon. The importance of transparency among cloud providers and the Green Software Foundation's hackathon event are highlighted.

Host Chris Adams talks to Kristina Devochko, a tech lead at CNCF, about tech sustainability and the Environmental Sustainability TAG. They discuss mission and projects, joining the Green Software Foundation, upcoming meetups, and the impact of AI and machine learning on sustainability.