What can we learn from the UK's largest residential fire since World War Two, in which 72 people died? The Grenfell Tower disaster happened in the Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea, one of London's wealthiest areas. As a result of catastrophic decision-making — both by those responsible for maintaining the building and those responding to the fire — what should have been a containable fire turned into a blazing inferno. In this episode, I explore how those decisions were made and what we can learn from a human risk perspective. My guest, Gill Kernick, is a former resident of Grenfell Tower who works in high hazard industries to develop safety, leadership and culture. She's also the author of a book called Catastrophe and Systemic Change: Learning from the Grenfell Tower Fire and Other Disasters.In this, the first of two parts, Gill and I discuss Grenfell and the human risk lessons that provides.In Part Two, we talk about the other disasters she explores in her book and what we can learn from them. Links to the topics we discuss:Gill's website - https://grenfellenquirer.blog/GIll's book - https://grenfellenquirer.blog/catastrophe-systemic-change-the-book/The Grenfell Tower Fire Wikipedia entry - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenfell_Tower_fireA BBC explainer on Grenfell - https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40301289The Piper Alpha Disaster - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piper_AlphaACM Cladding - https://www.designingbuildings.co.uk/wiki/ACM_claddingThe Grenfell Tower Enquiry - https://www.grenfelltowerinquiry.org.uk/The Lakanal House Fire - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakanal_House_fireConservative politician Jacob Rees-Mogg's comments on the Grenfell Tower residents' 'lacking common sense' in following the Fire Brigade's instructions - https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/special-shows/ring-rees-mogg/grenfell-survivors-demand-apology-jacob-rees-mogg/UK Prime Minister Theresa May's reaction to Grenfell - https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44440479
Opposition Leader Jeremy Corbyn's reaction to Grenfell - https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/he-leader-need-jeremy-corbyn-10629102Deepwater Horizon - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepwater_Horizon_oil_spill

How did the Post Office deliver one of the biggest miscarriages of justice in British history?My guest Nick Wallis, is a journalist and radio presenter who has written a book called The Great Post Office Scandal which explains how a billion pound IT system, unleashed an enormous legal, ethical and political scandal.As Nick explains on the show, hundreds of sub-postmasters were alleged to have engaged in theft, false accounting and/or fraud and were taken to court by the Post Office. This resulted in criminal convictions, imprisonment, loss of reputation and livelihood, bankruptcy, divorce, and even suicide amongst those involved. It subsequently transpired that it wasn’t people that were at fault, but rather the billion point IT system that the Post Office had installed as part of a modernisation program. In our discussion, we explore how the Scandal occurred, Nick’s experience in investigating it and what lessons we can learn.This is a tale of appalling human decision-making with serious consequences. It’s about as human risk-relevant as it gets.To learn more about the subjects we discussed on the show:Nick’s website - https://www.nickwallis.com/Nick’s book The Great Post Office Scandal - https://bathpublishing.com/products/the-great-post-office-scandalThe BBC Radio 4 podcast - https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000jf7jBBC Radio Surrey - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live:bbc_radio_surreyThe BBC Radio Surrey Twitter account - https://twitter.com/BBCSurreyThe Justice for Subpostmaster’s Alliance - https://www.jfsa.org.uk/
BBC TV’s Inside Out South program featuring Nick - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ2FLuFVGMgThe Wikipedia page for the Post Office Scandal with links to court hearings and other relevant documents - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Post_Office_scandalInfected Blood Scandal - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contaminated_blood_scandal_in_the_United_Kingdom#BackgroundWindrush Scandal - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windrush_scandalHillsborough Disaster - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough_disasterProfessor Richard Morehead - https://socialsciences.exeter.ac.uk/law/staff/moorhead/Darren Jones MP on Artificial Intelligence - https://thebristolcable.org/2018/06/artificial-intelligence-robots-and-the-future-of-society-interview-with-darren-jones/The Horizon Scandal Fund - https://www.horizonscandalfund.org/

What does Sustainability have to do with Compliance?On this episode, I’m speaking to a Compliance innovator that has combined both. Dr Sarah Tischler is Head of Compliance for NKG, the world’s largest coffee trading company. Since NKG is privately owned and isn’t operating in a regulated industry, on the face of it, they’re not the kind of company you might naturally expect to have a compliance function. And up until a few years ago, they didn’t. Until Sarah came along and persuaded them that they needed one and created a role for herself.Not only has she built out her function, but she’s also added to her responsibilities by taking on responsibility for Sustainability under what they call their Responsible Business Program. Now, you may be wondering what a subject like sustainability has to do with compliance — which was my reaction when I first met Sarah and she told me what she did. But having heard her explanation it not only makes perfect sense, but it’s surprising that more firms haven’t adopted this approach.In our discussion, we talk about how Sarah persuaded NKG to establish a Compliance function, what her approach to the role is, how Behavioural Science supports that and the rationale behind and practicalities of combining it with Sustainability. Relevant links:
Professor Johan Lambsdorff - https://www.wiwi.uni-passau.de/wirtschaftstheorie/NKG - https://www.nkg.de/The German Supply Chain Due Diligence Act - https://www.bmas.de/EN/Services/Press/recent-publications/2021/act-on-corporate-due-diligence-in-supply-chains.html]The World Economic Forum paper on the rise of Chief Integrity Officers - https://www.weforum.org/whitepapers/the-rise-and-role-of-the-chief-integrity-officer-leadership-imperatives-in-an-esg-driven-world

What is kindness and why does it matter? One of my New Year's resolutions for 2022 is to be kinder to others. So, in this episode, I'm learning more about what being kind means — spoiler alert, it doesn't mean always being nice — and why that matters.My guest Sebastian Boo is a trainer, tutor and researcher at the London School of Economics and Political Science and the founder of Kindness Advantage Ltd, a company that brings kindness training to the workplace. So he knows what he's talking about when it comes to kindness. During our discussion, we explore what kindness is — in particular why it might not mean what we tend to think it means — why it matters and what we can practically do to be kinder.Aside from having a fascinating conversation with Sebastian, the other reason for getting him onto the show is to publicise my resolution so there's hopefully more chance of me sticking to it. Let's see...During our discussion we talk about:Kindness Advantage https://kindness-advantage.com/Kindness: A Pocket Guide https://kindness-advantage.com/the-bookProfessor David Canter’s ( ) research on measuring kindness entitled ‘Development of a measure of kindness’ https://www.researchgate.net/publication/351889065_Development_of_a_measure_of_kindnessAn interview with Professor Paul Bloom on his book Against Empathy: https://www.vox.com/conversations/2017/1/19/14266230/empathy-morality-ethics-psychology-compassion-paul-bloom
Against Empathy - https://www.google.com/books/edition/Against_Empathy/op67CwAAQBAJ?hl=enThe study undertaken at Coca Cola Span on acts of kindness called Everyday Prosociality in the Workplace: The Reinforcing Benefits of Giving, Getting and Glimpsing - https://www.researchgate.net/publication/317355148_Everyday_Prosociality_in_the_Workplace_The_Reinforcing_Benefits_of_Giving_Getting_and_Glimpsing
The Isle of Skye - https://www.isleofskye.com/

Why do we live in such a polarised world and what can we do to minimise the dynamic? On this episode, I’m joined by Alex Chesterfield and Ali Goldsworthy, two of the co-authors of a book called Poles Apart - Why People Turn Against Each Other and How To Bring Them Together. They’re also two of the co-hosts of the Changed My Mind podcast that talks to people who have changed their minds on big issues. Alex Chesterfield is a behavioural scientist with a master's degree in Cognitive and Decision Science. Forever curious about why we do what we do, she currently works in financial services, leading a team of behavioural scientists to help get better outcomes for employees and customers. For four years, she was an elected Councillor in Guildford for the Conservative Party. She has personally experienced the effects of affective polarisation, both in and out of the workplace. She has been on the show before & you can hear that episode here: https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/alex-chesterfield-on-behavioural-regulation/Ali Goldsworthy has been a political adviser and campaigner for more than twenty years. A former Deputy Chair of the Liberal Democrats, she led the team that built the fastest-growing campaigning organisation in the UK. In 2017 she was a Sloan Fellow at Stanford, co-creating its first depolarisation course. A board member of the Joseph Rowntree Reform Trust, Alison has won numerous awards for her work. She has written for the Telegraph, Independent, New Statesman, The Times and Financial Times.In the episode, we talk about the genesis of the podcast and the book and what Alex and Ali have learned from writing it. We also explore some of the key dynamics that drive polarisation, including social media, and the techniques we can all deploy to minimise it in our lives and in society. Poles Apart book - https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/111/1119814/poles-apart/9781847942951.htmlFor more on the Changed My Mind Podcast visit — https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/author/the-depolarization-project/The specific episodes we referred to:Derek Black on why he left the White Nationalist movement — https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/leaving-white-nationalist-movement-with-derek-black/Ayman Diem on why he switched from being an Al Qaeda bombmaker to an MI6 spy — https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/podcasts/podcast-changed-my-mind/changed-my-mind-al-qaeda-bombmaker-mi6-spy/Cass Sunstein on why he changed his mind about the stability of US democracy — https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/podcasts/podcast-changed-my-mind/changed-my-mind-american-democracy-cass-sunstein/We also discussed:
LBC Radio presenter James O’Brien — https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/Twitter — https://twitter.com/mrjamesob?James’ Full Disclosure podcast — https://www.globalplayer.com/podcasts/42KqCF/‘Gamergate’ on Reddit — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamergate_(harassment_campaign)Psychologist Milton Lodge — https://www.stonybrook.edu/commcms/polisci/people/_faculty/Lodge_Milton.phpDan Kahan — https://law.yale.edu/dan-m-kahan
Jonathan Haidt — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_HaidtChantal Mouffe — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chantal_MouffeAgonism — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agonism
Ian Leslie’s book Conflicted — http://ian-leslie.com/conflicted/Amy Edmondson on Psychological Safety — https://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Pages/profile.aspx?facId=6451The online course (MOOC) in association with Cambridge University — https://www.edx.org/course/polarisation?

What do fools have to do with managing human risk? On the face of it, they’re likely to be a driver, rather than a solution. But when we use the term to describe in the context of court jesters, then the answer might be very different. As my guest on this episode, Béatrice Otto, helps me to understand. She’s the author of a book called Fools Are Everywhere: The Court Jester Around The World, which explores the history of the role. I’m fascinated by this from a human risk perspective because the comedy deployed by jesters provided them with a very effective vehicle for highlighting flaws in human decision-making. By permitting the jester to make jokes about what they had observed, the monarch or emperor would receive feedback they wouldn’t get from elsewhere.In our wide-ranging discussion, we explore the role of the fool, how they came to be appointed, the limits of what they could say and some of the cunning techniques they deployed to get their point across. Béatrice explains how the role came about, why the fool no longer exists and why perhaps it should. My thanks to my former colleague and regular listener to the show, Simon Rogerson, who first pointed out to me the relevance of court jesters to risk management.To find out more about the issues we discuss on the show:The book Fools Are Everywhere - https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/F/bo3615397.htmlBéatrice’s website - https://www.foolsareeverywhere.com/
To sign up for her newsletter - https://www.foolsareeverywhere.com/The job description for corporate fools - https://www.foolsareeverywhere.com/blog-fools-job-description/If you missed the previous episodes featuring comedian and impressionist Josh Berry:Part One - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/josh-berry-on-comedy-satire-impressions-part-one/Part Two - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/josh-berry-on-comedy-satire-impressions-part-two/

This episode is the second part of my discussion with comedian & impressionist Josh Berry. If you haven't yet listened to the first part, I recommend you do that, before listening to this.You'll find Part One here: https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/josh-berry-on-comedy-satire-impressions-part-one/In this episode, we discuss how Josh's interest in human decision-making drives his comedy and explore further aspects of his work. Links to specific topics we discuss are below.To find out more about Josh, his Rafe Hubris diaries, his tour and his other work visit www.joshberryofficial.com.To avoid missing out on his latest sketches, follow Josh on social media:Twitter — https://twitter.com/JoshBerryComedyFacebook — https://www.facebook.com/JoshBerryImpressionsInstagram — https://www.instagram.com/joshberrycomedy/YouTube — https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLtucDoyC9QQyibS8BY3VewIn this episode, we discuss:- Adrian Mole, a fictional diariast - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Mole- Four Lions, a satire by Chris Morris - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Lions- Comedian Tommy Tiernan - https://www.tommedian.com/- Dave LaChapelle's Netflix special. Watch a trailer here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1UEj_6T1RE. and the show here: https://www.netflix.com/title/81228510- The tale of Sisyphus from Greek mythology - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisyphus- Comedian Michael Spicer - https://www.michaelspicer.co.uk/ and https://twitter.com/MrMichaelSpicer?s=20- Comedian Sarah Cooper - https://thecooperreview.com/ and https://twitter.com/sarahcpr?s=20- Fictional Reporter Jonathan Pie - https://www.jonathanpie.com/- Comedian James Acaster - https://www.jamesacaster.com/- Bob Mortimer's Train Guy - https://mashable.com/article/bob-mortimer-train-guy- Psychologist Jordan Peterson - https://www.jordanbpeterson.com/- Comedian Jimmy Carr - https://www.jimmycarr.com/- Dave Chapelle's speech at the Mark Twain Prize - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwyeYmXjD1A- Josh's Interview with UK newspaper The Daily Telegraph -https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/25/right-wingers-have-much-sense-humour-left/- Former Leaders of the UK Labour Party Jeremy Corbyn -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_CorbynEd Milliband - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Miliband- Political commentator Owen Jones - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owen_Jones- NASCAR driver Josh Berry - https://www.joshberryracing.com/- My Amazon review for Staggering Hubris, Josh/Rafe's book - https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/customer-reviews/R3T9LVQK15CB2Q/ref=cm_cr_dp_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=1785633074

What can comedy teach us about human decision-making?That’s something that my guest on this episode Josh Berry, knows all about. He’s a comedian, impressionist and satirist — though as you’ll hear on the episode, he’s not hugely keen on that third label. If there’s anyone that can help us to understand human risk, it’s someone who is really good at observing human behaviour and making us laugh about it.I first discovered Josh last year, thanks to videos he released on social media which went viral. In them he plays, Rafe Hubris, a 25-year-old SPAD - short for SPecial ADviser — to the current UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson. The construct Josh uses for his Rafe videos is really simple. Something newsworthy — usually ridiculous — has happened in reality and Rafe is on the phone providing strategic and communications advice to whichever government minister has got themselves into trouble.The comedy comes both from the storyline and Rafe as a character — the surname Hubris is very apt to describe the incredibly self-confident, posh, entitled Oxford graduate. We know he studied at Oxford because he never ceases to tell us. If you’ve never come across a Rafe, congratulations! — just imagine what a younger Boris Johnson must have been like. Since releasing the videos, Josh has written & published Rafe’s 2020 diaries, and is in the middle of a UK tour. Our discussion went on so long, that there's a second episode coming very soon.To find out more about the topics we discussed:Josh’s website including details of Rafe’s diary and his tour: www.joshberryofficial.comJosh on Social Media:Twitter — https://twitter.com/JoshBerryComedyFacebook — https://www.facebook.com/JoshBerryImpressionsInstagram — https://www.instagram.com/joshberrycomedy/YouTube — https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLtucDoyC9QQyibS8BY3VewMrs Doubtfire - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mrs._DoubtfireSimon Lipson - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_LipsonRussell Brand - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_BrandJosh’s interview with Andy Murray - https://www.hellomagazine.com/celebrities/2017070340302/andy-murray-impressionist-funny-clip/A clip from Rob & Romesh with Andy Murray - https://twitter.com/robandromeshvs/status/1413148366960164865?lang=enThe Michael Gove tweet that led to the creation of Rafe Hubris — https://twitter.com/michaelgove/status/1199304826468876288?Alan Partridge - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_PartridgeJimmy Carr - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_CarrRafe’s Peppa Pig reference - https://twitter.com/JoshBerryComedy/status/1463203112076910596?s=20
Frankie Boyle - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankie_BoyleChris Morris - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Morris_(satirist)

How can we prevent people from falling over and injuring themselves? What sounds like a simple challenge, is actually a major issue. In a normal year, over 300,000 people in the UK alone have to go going to hospital after slipping on a surface. That equates to 1.5 million bed days and around a billion pounds, so 1.3 billion dollars of insurance claims. My guest on this episode, Christian Harris, is the founder of Slip Safety, a company that specialises in helping prevent these kinds of accidents. If that sounds like an unusual business model, you’re right. But as you’ll hear there’s a lot more complexity in what makes us fall over than you might think. If you want to solve the problem, then you need a specialist to help you do that.The more I spoke to Christian about his business, the more I realised that what he does is highly relevant to human risk. Because it’s not just a case of telling people to take more care, though sometimes it clearly is the fault of the individual who fell. But equally, sometimes the environment has been poorly designed, making the chances of people falling over unnecessarily high. This is a case of human risk manifesting itself in the physical world. In our discussion, Christian explains what inspired him to set up the company. We also explore the dynamics of falling and how technology can help prevent it. We look at how the idea of falling over being funny — think of cartoon characters throwing banana skins down to make their nemesis fall over or comedy YouTube videos of people falling over in the snow — poses challenges when you’re trying to manage what is a very dangerous risk. And we talk about the fact that logical approaches to managing this — signs that say things like slippery when wet, might actually be counter-productive. I also get some tips from him on how we can all make ourselves less likely to fall overChristian not only shares some wonderful insights — and you’ll be amazed at how much more complex this subject is than you might initially think — but he’s also great company. So, please enjoy my discussion with Christian Harris on Slips, Falls and Accidents.Links to issues we discuss:Christian’s company Slip Safety - https://slipsafety.co.uk/Chimes model - https://slipsafety.co.uk/chimes/Co-op incident in Truro - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-39998209Safety & Risk Success Podcast - https://anchor.fm/safetyrisksuccessThe episode on human risk - https://anchor.fm/safetyrisksuccess/episodes/Christian-Hunt-on-The-Human-Risk--behavioural-science-in-safety-e18sa2eChristian’s profile on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/christian-harris-slip-safety/

How can we manage risk and keep people safe in fragile environments?My guest Colin Pereira is Director at HP Risk Management, a consultancy that assists media organisations operating in challenging environments. Since the business of journalism is to report, news organisations need to get their reporters into locations the rest of us might prefer to avoid. As a human risk challenge, this is multifaceted — many of the risks facing journalists in the field are human, and the decisions they make while on assignment also provide plenty of opportunity for human risk to manifest itself. Meanwhile the media organisations need to consider how they manage the risk from an organisational perspective.Colin helps news organisations build their compliance infrastructure and crisis management for dangerous assignments. In simple terms, that involves supporting journalists and broadcasters in managing risk when they go into war zones, disaster locations or engage in dangerous investigations. For two decades, he has shaped the risk management model for journalists operating under threat. In 2020, Colin launched RiskPal, a software as a service platform focusing on streamlining risk assessment. In addition to working with numerous news organisations, he also serves as the Committee to Protect Journalists’ Safety Strategist. Previously he was head of security for ITN and Deputy Head of BBC High-Risk Team. Colin has advised teams of journalists covering wars, natural disasters, terrorism and riots globally, and has worked on high-risk investigations. He was also an award-winning journalist for BBC Newsnight and BBC Current Affairs.In our discussion, Colin explains how he went from studying Islamic fundamentalism to working for The BBC. Firstly as part of the security team, and then as a journalist where he worked in some very dangerous locations. That means he’s got some fascinating anecdotes about the kinds of risks that journalists face and what the organisations that employ them can do to mitigate the risks they’ll be facing.During our discussion, we talk about:Colin's career: https://www.linkedin.com/in/colin-pereira-187b2828/HP Risk Management: https://www.hpriskmanagement.co.uk/RiskPal: https://www.riskpal.com/The BBC report Colin was working on in Afghanistan: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00m36bjHow social media impacted the 2011 Arab Spring protests in Egypt: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12400319