The Human Risk Podcast

What if the most powerful tool at work isn’t logic, but laughter? On this episode I'm speaking to a comedian who far from thinking humour is a workplace distraction, thinks it might be one of our most powerful tools. Episode SummaryMy guest is Pep Rosenfeld: comedian, improviser, and co-founder of the Amsterdam-based comedy institution Boom Chicago. He’s also the author of Work Laugh Balance, a manifesto for injecting humour into the working world. We explore why humour matters; not just as entertainment, but as a serious enabler of collaboration, communication, and honesty. Pep brings a unique perspective: part performer, part business trainer. We talk about how Boom Chicago went from late-night improv to a launchpad for corporate masterclasses in leadership and presentation. Along the way, we unpack the risks and rewards of using humour at work; what works, what really doesn’t, and how to find the line without crossing it. Pep shares ethical guidelines for office jokes, the power of self-deprecation, and why starting with a laugh can lead to deeper conversations. We also get into the craft of being funny.Pep explains why good comedy is rarely spontaneous, why AI still can’t tell a decent joke, and why live audiences matter more than ever. Whether you're trying to lighten the mood in a meeting or name the elephant in the room without causing a stampede, this episode offers practical ideas (and a few laughs) on how to do it with intelligence and care.AI-Generated Timestamped Summary[00:00:00] Opening on humour’s overlooked role in work; intro to Pep Rosenfeld[00:01:00] How Boom Chicago began as a summer comedy project in Amsterdam[00:04:00] Expanding into improv for kids on the autism spectrum[00:06:00] The book’s premise: humour fuels communication, leadership, and trust[00:11:00] Why advertisers and leaders alike should embrace humour[00:12:00] Rules for workplace humour: self-deprecate, avoid punching down, don’t get creepy[00:16:00] Comedy as a tool for tackling elephants in the room[00:23:00] The myth of improv: strong humor depends on thoughtful prep[00:26:00] The power of presence and live attention in comedy[00:33:00] What comedians offer that motivational speakers don’t[00:36:00] How Pep uses AI to show the limits of artificial humour[00:41:00] Using comedy to defuse fear and build connection[00:44:00] Parallel skills: being a lawyer vs. being a comedian[00:50:00] The energy difference between live and virtual comedy[00:55:00] Defining Work Laugh Balance: credibility without sterility[01:00:00] What’s next for Pep, where to find his work, and closing thoughtsLinksPep on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/pep-rosenfeld-394b2424/Boom Chicago, Pep's Amsterdam comedy club - https://boomchicago.nl/Work Laugh Balance - https://amzn.eu/d/678xGYNIf you eniyed this episode, then you might also like these previous episodes of the show:Comedy writer Paul Dornan on Being Truly Funny - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/paul-dornan-on-being-truly-funny/Improv Comedian Neil Mullarkey on Being In The Moment - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/neil-mullarkey-on-being-in-the-moment/Impressionist Josh Berry on Comedy, Satire and Impressions - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/josh-berry-on-comedy-satire-impressions-part-one/

Why do cyclists in London run red lights? It's against the law, and yet, if you've cycled, driven or just observed London's cyclists, you'll know that many of them don't stop when there's a red light. Confession time: I'm one of them. Not all the time, but some of the time, and weirdly not when I'm in Munich — the other city I live in — but only in London.The question of why this happens — not just my red light running, but the act in general — is the subject of this episode. Because I think this seemingly simple act can reveal so much about our compliance with rules, our perception of risk, and the way environments shape behaviour.To unpack these insights, I’m joined by Ella Jenkins, Associate Director at Thinks Insight, and Pete Dyson, a behavioural science researcher at the University of Bath and co-author of Transport for Humans.  They've been part of a research team on a study commissioned by Lime, the electric bike and scooter company, which explores why cyclists in London behave the way they do.What we discover isn’t about recklessness—it’s about confidence, social signalling, poor infrastructure, and the surprising psychology of compliance. In our conversation, we examine the drivers of red-light running, the effectiveness of different interventions, and what this means for broader behaviour change.Whether you’re a policymaker, a cyclist, or simply someone curious about how our minds and cities interact, this episode offers practical insights into one of the most visible — and misunderstood — forms of everyday noncompliance.Guest BiographiesElla Jenkins is an Associate Director at Thinks Insight, a strategy and research consultancy that helps clients understand human behaviour and deliver change. She led the research project commissioned by Lime to understand why cyclists in London run red lights. With a background in behavioural science and a passion for applying insights in real-world contexts, Ella brings both analytical rigour and empathy to her work.Pete Dyson is a behavioural science researcher at the University of Bath, where he focuses on transport systems and human behaviour. He is the co-author with Rory Sutherland of the influential book Transport for Humans: Are we nearly there yet? and previously served as the Principal Behavioural Scientist at the UK Department for Transport. He's also the current Cycling Mayor for the UK City of Bath.Pete blends practical policymaking experience with a deep understanding of the behavioural levers that shape how we move through the world.AI-Generated Timestamped Summary[00:00:00] Introduction and personal confession about red-light running[00:01:15] Overview of the Lime-commissioned research [00:03:20] Introducing Ella Jenkins and Pete Dyson[00:05:45] The origins and goals of the study[00:09:05] Red-light running as a defensive rather than reckless behaviour[00:12:08] Confidence and frequency of cycling linked to rule-breaking[00:13:14] Perceptions versus reality of who breaks the rules[00:16:32] The role of infrastructure and signal phasing[00:18:54] Social norms and peer influence on cyclist behaviour[00:21:46] Trust in the rules versus lived reality [00:24:20] Designing for behavioural cues[00:28:15] Comparison with other cities like Munich [00:30:58] The emotional context of cycling[00:34:46] Enforcement and views on potential interventions[00:38:12] Habit formation and unintended nudges [00:41:23] The interplay between education and empathy[00:46:49] Final reflections and Christian's closing thoughtsLinksElla on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ella-jenkins/Pete on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pete-dyson-9ba5301b/What drives red light running in London cyclists?, the research we discuss: https://fileserver.britainthinks.com/dl/wH4CcDyRg8bVThinks Insight: https://www.thinksinsight.com/Lime Bikes: https://www.li.me/en-gbTransport for Humans: https://www.transportforhumans.com/Pete's previous appearance on the show talking about Transport for Humans: https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/pete-dyson-on-making-transport-more-human/The announcement of Pete as Cycling Mayor of Bath: https://www.bath.ac.uk/announcements/the-bicycle-mayor-of-bath-pete-dyson/

What if the ideas that linger in the back of your mind — the ones you can’t quite explain — are the ones you most need to pay attention to?Episode SummaryIn this episode, I explore that question with Dr Nuno Reis, a former physicist and investment banker turned thinker and guide in uncovering what he calls rare dots — those unique, pre-verbal insights that feel deeply resonant but don’t yet fit into our existing models of the world.Our conversation begins with Nuno’s unusual career path, from string theory and theoretical physics into financial modelling and risk management, before moving into transparency roles in finance. From there, we trace the thread of his enduring curiosity: how crises drive paradigm shifts, why models are useful but limited, and what happens when we acknowledge that not everything fits into neat rational frameworks.Nuno then introduces the concept of rare dots and explains how he’s harnessing AI in a novel, deeply human way: not to replace thought, but to help us surface the preverbal ideas that shape our uniqueness. Together, we explore how rare dots can guide creativity, meaning, and innovation in our work and lives — and why paying attention to the things that don’t quite make sense may be the most sensible thing we can do.Guest BiographyDr Nuno Reis describes himself as a physicist turned banker turned explorer of human thinking. After completing a PhD in theoretical physics with a focus on string theory, he transitioned into investment banking at UBS and later into financial engineering and transparency initiatives at Bloomberg.Over 18 years in finance, he applied scientific methods to risk modelling, hedging, and complex derivatives, all while maintaining a deep curiosity about the limits of logic and models.Today, Nuno is the creator of the Rare Dots framework, which helps individuals and organisations uncover the pre-verbal insights that drive creativity and meaning. He combines philosophy, history of thought, and cutting-edge uses of AI to build environments where people can explore their deepest intuitions.Through workshops, cohorts, and his own practice, he guides others in turning those rare dots into pathways for innovation, purpose, and contribution.AI-Generated Timestamped Summary[00:00:00] Introduction and framing of rare dots as preverbal insights[00:01:00] Nuno’s background: from physics to banking and financial modelling[00:06:00] Applying scientific methods to markets and the 2008 crisis[00:12:00] Replication crisis and paradigm shifts in science[00:18:00] Early story of curiosity and existential questions[00:21:00] Introduction of rare dots as deeply resonant insights[00:26:00] How resonance and intuition shape meaning[00:30:00] Creating environments to surface rare dots[00:35:00] History of thinking vs history of ideas[00:40:00] Using AI as a tool for rare dots and Wittgenstein’s ladder[00:46:00] How AI can surface pre-verbal thinking[00:52:00] AI as a prompt for deeper human thinking[00:56:00] Rare dots exploration as an infinite game[01:02:00] Rare dots as a guide for careers and human valueLinksNuno on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/nuno-reis/Nuno's Substack - https://nunobreis.substack.com/

Is listening a hidden superpower we’ve overlooked?  You've heard of Active Listening, but what is Radical Listening and why does it matter?Episode SummaryOn this episode, I’m joined by Professor Christian van Nieuwerburgh, an academic who also describes himself as 'Coach on a Motorcycle'. He's on the show to help me explore what he calls 'Radical Listening'.Christian is Professor of Coaching and Positive Psychology at the University of East London and the co-author, with Dr Robert Biswas-Diener, of 'Radical Listening: The Art of True Connection'.The book offers a research-backed but deeply human exploration of what it means to really hear someone — and how that act alone can change lives. In the book and in his work, Christian blends academic rigour with road-tested coaching insights, drawing from both the lecture hall and long rides through open landscapes. He invites us to look at listening not just as a skill, but as a way of being.With a background in positive psychology and a passion for connection, Christian brings a perspective that’s as practical as it is profound. We talk about how listening — when done with presence and intention — becomes far more than a communication technique. It becomes a way of affirming identity, offering empathy, and shaping culture. Christian shares why well-meaning advice often misses the mark, the difference between social and cognitive listening, and what it takes to be with someone, rather than just hearing them.This isn’t just for leaders or coaches;  it’s for anyone who wants to have better conversations, create stronger relationships, and be more human in how they engage with others. Listening, as we discuss, isn’t neutral. It’s powerful, personal, and radically transformative.Guest BiographyProfessor Christian van Nieuwerburgh is a globally recognised executive coach, academic, and author, holding the title of Professor of Coaching and Positive Psychology at the University of East London.As Managing Director of the International Centre for Coaching Psychology and Executive Director at Growth Coaching International, he bridges rigorous research with practice.He co-authored Radical Listening: The Art of True Connection (with Dr Robert Biswas‑Diener), which reorients listening from a background skill to a central act of human connection.Famously known as the “Coach on a Motorcycle,” Christian combines his love for the open road with his dedication to how we hear and are heard. Learn more at: LinksRadical Listening - https://www.bkconnection.com/books/title/Radical-ListeningRadical Listening Audiobook - https://www.audible.co.uk/pd/Radical-Listening-Audiobook/B0F2B3TKXVChristian's faculty page at Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland (RCSI) - https://people.rcsi.com/chrisvnChristian's faculty page at Henley Business School - https://www.henley.ac.uk/people/christian-j-van-nieuwerburghCoach on a Motorcycle - coachonamotorcycle.comAI-Generated Timestamped Summary[00:01:45] — The roots of Radical Listening[00:06:30] — How coaching principles intersect with everyday conversations[00:11:55] — When advice becomes unhelpful[00:17:40] — Listening as identity-affirming behaviour[00:22:00] — When a good question stops you in your tracks[00:27:30] — Social vs cognitive listening[00:33:10] — Why you don’t need to understand the topic to be a great listener[00:38:45] — The unspoken costs of poor listening in organisations[00:44:50] — How Radical Listening links to psychological safety[00:49:20] — Motorcycles, mindfulness, and being in flow[00:56:00] — The AI comparison: why listening is a human art[01:01:00] — Practical takeaways for everyday listeners

Why do we follow orders or go along with things that feel wrong? Why might defiance be better than compliance? And how can we go about becoming more defiant?Episode SummaryI’ve always been fascinated by why people obey, even when it clashes with their instincts or values. In this conversation, I’m joined by Dr Sunita Sah — a physician-turned-organisational psychologist whose work explores the hidden social, cultural, and psychological forces behind compliance. Drawing from her research and personal journey, Sunita reframes defiance as alignment with our true values, not reckless rebellion. We unpack concepts like “insinuation anxiety” — the discomfort of signalling someone else might be wrong — and explore her five-stage model of defiance, from recognising tension to taking decisive action. Sunita explains why compliance is often mistaken for consent, why both have distinct definitions, and why many of us have never practised saying “no” skillfully. Along the way, she shares vivid examples from medicine, aviation, parenting, and history, including the calculated defiance of Rosa Parks. For leaders, Sunita offers a challenge: create environments where dissent is safe and effective, and treat defiance as valuable feedback. For all of us, she suggests starting small — practising low-stakes resistance to build our “defiance muscle.” Whether you’re a rule-maker, rule-follower, or both, this episode invites you to rethink the stories you tell yourself about compliance, and to see saying “no” as a powerful tool for living with integrity. Guest Bio Self-Description:Dr Sunita Sah is a physician-turned-organisational psychologist and Professor of Management Studies at Cornell University. Her research examines the social, organisational, and psychological forces that influence decision-making, particularly in contexts involving authority, conflicts of interest, and ethical dilemmas. She is the author of Defy: The Power of No in a World That Demands Yes (US title: Defy: How to Speak Up When It Matters), a book that reframes defiance as a vital life skill. AI-Generated Timestamped Summary [00:00:00] Opening & why we obey even when it feels wrong[00:02:00] Sunita’s career journey: medicine to organisational psychology[00:05:00] Personal experiences shaping her research[00:07:00] Redefining compliance vs. consent[00:10:00] The five elements of informed consent[00:11:00] Introducing “insinuation anxiety”[00:14:00] High-stakes and low-stakes examples of silence[00:18:00] Why people resist defiance — lack of skill and practice[00:20:00] New definition of defiance as value alignment[00:23:00] Tension as the first stage of defiance[00:25:00] Stage 3: asking clarification questions[00:27:00] Scripts for skilful defiance[00:30:00] Practising in low-stakes situations[00:33:00] Speaking up for others vs. for oneself[00:36:00] Defiance as a skill, not a personality[00:38:00] Calculating safety and effectiveness of defiance[00:41:00] Costs of compliance vs. costs of defiance[00:44:00] Clarifying values to lower stress and improve integrity[00:46:00] Leadership responsibility for safe dissent[00:48:00] Performative vs. genuine speak-up systems[00:50:00] Defiance as contagious behaviour[00:52:00] The role of mischief and playful resistance[00:56:00] Saying yes when the world expects no[00:58:00] Advice for compliance officers and leaders[01:00:00] Upcoming courses on defiance and decision-makingLinksSunita's website: https://www.sunitasah.comDefy: The Power of No in a World That Demands Yes — https://www.sunitasah.com/defySunita's Cornell University faculty profile — https://www.johnson.cornell.edu/faculty-research/faculty/sunitasah/

What happens when citizens lose faith in the institutions that serve them? And how can we rebuild that trust?Episode SummaryOn this episode, I'm speaking to someone who cares passionately about this subject and who has made it her life's work to research and solve it.  From politicians who lie, to corruption scandals, to public services that simply don’t work the way we expect—especially when we're paying taxes and getting poor value—something feels broken. I want to know: how do we understand and respond to that breakdown of faith?Libby Maman, founder and CEO of Luminata, whose work turns abstract values like transparency, accountability, participation and inclusiveness into tangible, measurable trust indicators.We dig into why conventional approaches to rebuilding trust often backfire, and how designing systems that measure the right things can actually shift organisational behaviour for the better.You'll hear not only how trust can be mapped, measured and managed—but why that matters. We challenge assumptions: do metrics actually undermine trust? Or can they signal seriousness, credibility and responsiveness? Libby shares concrete examples of stakeholder‑led indicators, behavioural logic in gamification, and the limitations and opportunities of measuring democratic values.Guest Biography: Libby MamanLibby Maman is a researcher and systems designer working at the intersection of public policy, behavioural science and institutional design. She is the founder and CEO of Luminata, a consultancy that partners with governments and civil society to build measurable trust frameworks.  Libby’s broader background spans academia, consulting and public sector work.Her research focuses on translating democratic norms—such as transparency, accountability and inclusiveness—into practical metrics that organisations can both implement and act on. Through Luminata, she has worked with national and local governments to co‑design trust indicators that respond to real stakeholder needs and drive change.AI-Generated Timestamp Summary[00:00:00] Introduction: Declining trust in public bodies and the stakes of measurement[00:02:45] Libby’s background and mission at Luminata[00:05:30] Why traditional trust-building (PR, appeals to values) often fails[00:10:15] Designing trust indicators: transparency, accountability, participation, inclusiveness[00:15:40] Co‑design with stakeholders to ensure relevance and buy‑in[00:20:10] Behavioural logic: how metrics can motivate institutional change[00:25:00] Risks of aspirational vs realistic measurement targets[00:30:00] Trust-politicisation: when metrics become tools of power[00:35:20] Case examples of gamified measurement and its impact[00:40:00] The relationship between trust-building and voluntary compliance[00:45:30] Limitations: measurement isn’t magic—but it's a start[00:50:00] Final reflections on what organisations must do to grow trustLinks:Libby's website - Luminata website (Libby’s consultancy) Libby on LinkedIn Relevant Previous EpisodesProfessor Yuval Feldman on why we should write rules for good people not bad peopleProfessor Yuval Feldman on Trust & Voluntary ComplianceHilary Sutcliffe on TrustDr Jake Mazulewicz on Human Reliability

We’ve all heard the phrase ‘the show must go on’.  But when shouldn’t the show go on?  To help me answer that, I’m speaking to someone who has spent 35 years managing some of Australia’s most iconic large-scale events — from Taylor Swift concerts to public city spectacles with crowds over 200,000, and corporate experiences — and has often faced the question: when should the show really stop?My guest is Iain Morrison, wh,o as well as having a background in events, is now the CEO of a startup that builds hyper‑accurate 3D and VR plans for event venues.Episode SummaryIn this episode, I dig into what happens when the entertainment world’s credo — “the show must go on” — becomes a liability, and what it feels like backstage to carry that kind of responsibility. Iain explains the importance of having show‑stop protocols long before trouble arrives — whether it’s crowd crush, heart attacks in the crowd, or approaching severe weather. He explains how event organisers need to make decisions in advance so that nobody freezes under pressure, and ensure everyone is aligned on who can stop the show, and how and when to restart it. We also delve into the emotional toll of the event industry — the brutal hours, constant touring, adrenaline highs, and the realities of burnout. Ian talks candidly about putting people at risk by cutting critical breaks and how easily event teams can burn out. Finally, he walks me through his pivot: building a tech startup that uses 3D planning and virtual models to give event teams a fully visual planning tool — reducing surprises, improving safety, and supporting better decisions from the very first draft. GUEST BIOGRAPHYIain is an event manager with over three decades of experience in running major concerts, festivals, and public spectacles across Australia. He has helped deliver live shows for acts like Taylor Swift, U2, Foo Fighters, major public events on the Sydney Harbour Bridge and Domain Concert series, with crowds ranging from 5,000 to over 200,000. From high school theatre beginnings to early work at Opera Australia and the Sydney Opera House, Ian transitioned into corporate events, the Olympics, and large public outdoor events. He has worked in high-pressure environments where crowd safety, terrorism threats, public order, and weather call-offs were part of the job on a daily basis. About two years ago, he moved from event delivery to event technology — as CEO and co‑founder of The Imagination Collaborative, Ian now leads a startup building hyper‑accurate 3D and VR planning tools. These digital twins help event teams visualise venue layouts, crowd flows, sightlines, signage, camera positions, evacuation routes and more—before anything is built on site.AI-GENERATED TIMESTAMPED SUMMARY[00:00:00] Introduction[00:02:00] Ian’s backstory: school theatre → university → Opera House → major events[00:05:00] Scale of events: from 5,000 attendees to crowds of over 200,000[00:08:00] Types of risk at live events: crowd crush, terrorism threats, medical events[00:12:00] Why events remain largely unregulated worldwide[00:15:00] Concept of a “show stop”: planning for what enables safe cancellation or pause[00:20:00] Decision‑making under stress: protocols versus ego-based pressure[00:25:00] Real scenarios: thunderstorms, crowd reaction, and restart challenges[00:28:00] Emotional cost on crews: burnout, long hours, compressed touring schedules[00:32:00] Industry taboo around mental health and burnout; making it safer for staff[00:36:00] Ian’s use of social media to spark conversations on stress, safety and standards[00:40:00] Introduction to Ian’s startup: detailed planning with 3D environments and VR[00:44:00] How the tool works: drone scans, venue models, client interaction in virtual space[00:48:00] Benefits: fewer surprises, better sightlines, optimised signage, cost savings[00:51:00] Future plans: integrating crowd simulation, digital twin models, global expansion[00:55:00] Final reflections: the trade‑offs of delivering magic vs ensuring safety[00:57:00] Wrap‑upLINKS Iain on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/iainmorrison1/Iain’s website - https://iainmorrison.global/ Iain’s startup, The Imagination Collaborative - https://www.theimaginationcollaborative.com/

What if the real risk of AI isn’t job loss but brain atrophy?Episode SummaryIf you've spent any time on social media recently, you'll be familiar with the flood of low-quality AI-generated sludge. And on this episode, I'm speaking to someone who is leading a one-woman campaign against it and in favour of human-generated content. Her name is Zsike Peter and she's the fiercely human founder of an agency called Vampire Digital; you'll hear why its called that on the show.  Zsike is also the author of a new book called Thinkbait: The Definitive Guide to Reclaiming Human Creativity in the Age of AI which seeks to highlight and combat the prevalence of AI-generated low-quality content.Her mission is a passionate defence of human creativity in an age where generative AI threatens to dull our minds and voices. Its a rallying cry for intentional, thoughtful use that keeps our agency intact. In a fascinating discussion, we explore her extraordinary backstory, from growing up in communist Transylvania to being arrested after escaping a toxic UK host family that hired her as an au pair. And you'll hear the remarkable story about how she went undercover in a brothel to win a journalism scholarship. These stories aren’t just great anecdotes, they reveal a mindset of relentless curiosity, courage, and independence that informs her work today.What makes Zsike's objection to AI so compelling is that initially she embraced it.  But after having tried it out, she flipped from embracing generative AI to warning against its effects on our thinking. You'll hear her talk about the concept of Thinkbait as an alternative to clickbait; content that stimulates rather than stupefies. Along the way, we unpack how language creates culture, why writing is thinking, and what it means to preserve our humanness in a machine-saturated world.And much, much more.Guest Biography: Zsike Peter Zsike is the founder of Vampire Digital — a content agency with a “fiercely human heart,” known for producing sharp, human-written copy in a world drowning in AI sludge. She is also the author of Thinkbait: The Definitive Guide to Reclaiming Human Creativity in the Age of AI — a book that serves as both a practical framework and a philosophical manifesto. Her background in journalism, corporate communications, and digital marketing now powers a mission to help people reclaim their voices (and their thinking) in a world increasingly seduced by generative AI.LinksThinkbait  - https://thinkbait.co.uk/Vampire Digital, Zsike's agency - https://www.vampiredigital.biz/Zsike on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/zsike-peter/AI-Generated Timestamped Summary(yes, I know, ironic, given the subject!)[00:00:00] Introduction [00:02:00] Zsike's childhood in communist Transylvania and family escape story[00:13:00] Going undercover in a brothel to win a journalism competition[00:19:00] Her arrest and start in the UK after fleeing abuse[00:24:00] Building a career in communications and founding Vampire Digital[00:28:00] Why she chose the vampire brand and what it represents[00:31:00] How her agency captures authentic voice in client content[00:33:00] Her shift from embracing to warning against generative AI[00:36:00] The dangers of outsourcing thinking and writing to machines[00:41:00] Why individuality and voice matter in a world of sameness[00:44:00] Thinkbait as a framework, manifesto, and act of defiance[00:48:00] The bedtime story moment that triggered a rethink on AI[00:53:00] The rise of fake authority and automated engagement online[00:57:00] Language loss, writing in a third language, and cultural identity[01:03:00] How hardship shaped her creative drive and ethical stance[01:07:00] Final reflections

What if we treated mental health like a capability instead of a crisis? On this episode, I'm talking to a business school professor and a counselling psychologist about their new book that looks at practical ways we can manage mental health. Not after it manifests itself, but beforehand.Episode SummaryMental health has become part of the workplace conversation, but all too often, that conversation stops at slogans and superficial gestures. On this episode, I explore what it really means to build mental wellbeing into the culture of an organisation with two guests who bring very different — and deeply complementary — perspectives.Dr. Kiran Bhatti is a counselling psychologist working one-on-one with individuals experiencing anxiety, trauma, and burnout. Professor Thomas Roulet is an organisational sociologist at the University of Cambridge who researches the social dynamics of modern workplaces.Together, they've written Wellbeing Intelligence, a book that offers a smarter, more integrated approach to mental health at work. Our conversation blends the clinical and the organisational.We talk about why mental health needs to be treated not just as an emergency response but as a proactive skillset, why high performers are often the most vulnerable, and why grand programmes can fall flat if they don’t feel human. Kiran explains how physical symptoms can mask deeper emotional struggles, and Thomas highlights the invisible tensions that can shape how teams feel and function. We unpack how leaders can signal care without being intrusive, and how a culture of safety is built more through micro-interactions than policies. This episode is for anyone trying to build workplaces that support — rather than erode — human wellbeing. It’s full of practical insight, honest reflection, and just the right amount of theory to make it stick. You’ll also hear what parenting a newborn has taught them about emotional intelligence and stress, and why the best mental health support often starts with listening, not fixing.And we break new ground on the show. Not just by having the first couple on as guests, but also because we're joined by their newborn son, who plays his part in making the show more human!Guest BiographiesDr. Kiran Bhatti is a counselling psychologist with over 15 years of experience working with individuals and organisations on issues related to mental health, trauma, and emotional wellbeing. She describes herself as someone who works at the intersection of science and soul — blending evidence-based psychological techniques with a deep respect for human complexity. In her practice, she focuses on empowering clients to make sense of their experiences and build sustainable emotional resilience.Professor Thomas Roulet is a Professor of Organisational Sociology and Leadership at Cambridge Judge Business School and a Fellow at King's College, University of Cambridge. His research explores the social dynamics of organisations, including topics like stigma, conformity, culture, and leadership. He’s published widely on how organisations manage tensions, and how individuals navigate identity and meaning at work. His writing has appeared in Harvard Business Review, The Conversation, and major academic journals. Together, they co-authored Wellbeing Intelligence: Building Better Mental Health at Work, combining their clinical and organisational expertise to offer a fresh approach to workplace wellbeing that moves beyond tokenistic initiatives.AI-Generated Timestamped Summary[00:00:00] Introduction and the concept of "wellbeing intelligence"[00:03:52] Why mental health should be viewed as a spectrum, not a binary[00:07:10] The limitations of performative wellbeing initiatives[00:09:24] How leaders can signal real care without being intrusive[00:13:17] The interplay between physical and emotional symptoms[00:16:45] Why psychological safety needs to be lived, not just stated[00:21:06] What makes high performers especially vulnerable to burnout[00:26:08] Cultural tensions: hybrid work, visibility, and presenteeism[00:29:33] Real-life stories of clients struggling in 'healthy' work cultures[00:34:12] What we can learn from parenting a newborn about stress response[00:38:05] Thomas on data vs experience in mental health measurement[00:41:52] Kiran on the role of micro-connections in building trust[00:44:30] Why middle managers are often the most squeezed and unsupported[00:48:17] The risk of "outsourcing" care via tech or tools[00:52:01] Final thoughts on how to embed wellbeing into everyday leadership[00:55:12] Outro and links to the book and guest profilesLinksDr Khiran Bhatti - https://www.drkiranbhatti.com/Professor Thomas Roulet - https://www.thomasroulet.com/Wellbeing Intelligence - https://profilebooks.com/work/wellbeing-intelligence/Thomas' previous appearance on the show on Negative Social Evaluations - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/dr-thomas-roulet-on-negative/

What if joy became the most important metric when we organised events? Or, to put it another way, why are so many events uninspiring and not very joyful?Episode SummaryOn this episode, I’m joined by event strategist, educator, and author Tahira Endean to explore a provocative question: what if we measured events not just by financial metrics, but by the joy they deliver?Drawing from her new book Our KPI is Joy: How Live Events Catalyze Happiness, Productivity and Trust, Tahira shares deep insights from decades of experience curating and designing events at scale, including her work with IMEX, one of the largest global gatherings in the meetings and events industry. We discuss why so many events feel soul-crushingly mediocre and how that reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of what people really need when they come together. Tahira challenges the industry’s obsession with surface-level logistics and proposes a reorientation around human experience.She unpacks everything from the science of connection and discomfort to the power of design, food, space, and unexpected joy to foster trust and productivity. Whether you’re an event professional, a business leader, or simply someone who’s sat through one too many lifeless conferences, this conversation will challenge how you think about convening people. We discuss beanbags, sound baths, shrimp, secret handshakes, and how small design decisions can profoundly impact how people feel, learn, and connect. And that’s what makes joy — not an emoji or indulgence — but a powerful performance indicator.Guest Bio: Tahira EndeanTahira is an experienced event strategist, educator, and co-founder of Strategy Table. She serves as Head of Programme for IMEX, where she curates content for two of the world’s largest MICE (Meetings, Incentives, Conventions, and Exhibitions) industry gatherings in Frankfurt and Las Vegas. With over three decades in the events industry, Tahira has developed a reputation for her forward-thinking approach to event design and human-centric experiences. She teaches event strategy and design, is a passionate advocate for experiential innovation, and brings a behavioural lens to the way we bring people together. She believes in the power of micro-moments, psychological safety, and events as catalysts for human connection and organisational trust.AI-Generated Timestamp Summary0:00:02 - 0:14:48: Maximizing Event Joy for ProductivityThe episode kicks off with a discussion on how joy can be a key performance indicator (KPI) for events. Tahira Endeen, an experienced event strategist, talks about why many events end up being mediocre and how small design changes can significantly enhance the experience. The conversation highlights the importance of joy in fostering happiness, productivity, and trust during gatherings, challenging the traditional business mindset to value joy as much as other KPIs. 0:14:48 - 0:29:08: Designing Events for Human ConnectionThis segment delves into the principles of intentional event design. Tahira and the host explore how creating environments that balance comfort and stimulation can lead to more meaningful interactions and learning experiences. They discuss examples like the 11th International Conference on AIDS, where well-designed events led to groundbreaking innovations. The focus is on nurturing individual experiences over catering to the masses.0:29:08 - 0:37:32: Designing Thoughtful & Engaging EventsThe focus here is on fostering connections and joy in professional events through thoughtful design. Strategies like facilitating introductions by senior managers and organising diverse breakout sessions are explored. The segment underscores the importance of measuring engagement and joy, emphasizing a human-centered approach that considers attendees' needs and enhances productivity and satisfaction.0:37:32 - 0:49:24: Embracing Experimentation and FailureTahira shares insights on the value of experimentation and adaptability in event planning. Through a personal anecdote, she illustrates how innovative ideas, initially met with scepticism, can yield significant benefits. The conversation encourages making small changes, embracing failures as learning opportunities, and maintaining a proactive attitude to achieve unexpected successes. 0:49:24 - 1:01:30: Navigating Event Chaos for SuccessThe episode explores the beauty of embracing imperfections in event planning. Tahira and the host discuss how handling mistakes with grace and humour can add charm to events. They advocate for flexibility in event processes to enhance experiences for both speakers and attendees, maintaining the magic even amidst logistical challenges.LinksIMEX Events - https://imexevents.com/Strategy Table - https://strategytable.co/Our KPI is Joy Book - https://www.amazon.com/Our-KPI-Joy-Happiness-Productivity-ebook/dp/B0DXVX6XX8Tahira on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/tahira-endean-msc-citp-cmp-ced-918a868/?