The Human Risk Podcast

What if the biggest AI risk isn’t bias or data, but human behaviour itself? How might AI impact the people using it and what does that mean for how we design solutions and deploy the technology?Episode SummaryOn this episode, I’m joined by a returning guest.  Richard Chataway is a behavioural science expert and strategist who joins me to explore how we can design AI systems that truly work for humans. Richard brings a unique lens to the conversation, combining insights from advertising, government policy, and behavioural science to unpack the human drivers that shape how we build and interact with AI. We discuss everything from cognitive biases and persuasive tech to the ethics of design and how these hidden forces influence our relationship with intelligent machines.During our conversation, Richard explains the importance of context and behavioural frameworks in making AI more ethical, effective, and human-centric. We explore real-world examples of effective and ineffective design, examining where intentions diverge from outcomes and what can be done to address these discrepancies. Richard shares fascinating insights from his book "The Behaviour Business" and his experience in both the public and private sectors, offering a practical yet thought-provoking look at what it really means to design for behaviour in the age of AI.Whether you’re an AI sceptic, enthusiast, or simply curious about how technology intersects with human behaviour, this episode offers a compelling exploration of the invisible levers shaping our digital lives. From nudging with intent to avoiding manipulation, Richard helps us understand how behavioural science can make the future of AI more aligned with our values and less prone to unintended consequences.Guest BiographyRichard is a Behavioural Scientist, Author and Podcaster who heads up the Behaviour Change Team at Concentrix, a Fortune 500 global technology and transformation company, working with around 2000 brands globally in over 70 different countries. He is also the founder of Communication Science Group and a former board member of the Association for Business Psychology. His book The Behaviour Business is a bestselling guide to deploying Behavioural Science within organisations to solve a wide range of problems. vAI-Generated Timestamped Summary00:00 – Intro: Designing AI for humans01:25 – Welcome back Richard Chataway03:15 – Behavioural science meets AI05:20 – Why we lie more to bots07:05 – Judgement, distance & dishonesty09:10 – When design invites bad behaviour11:30 – Fraud as a design problem13:40 – The “Computer says no” effect15:25 – When neutrality helps disclosure17:15 – The empathy paradox19:05 – Data bias & unequal outcomes21:30 – When to keep humans in the loop23:40 – Behavioural science as AI insurance26:00 – When efficiency erodes trust28:20 – Friction, fairness & feedback30:05 – AI and the frontline worker33:00 – Redefining jobs, not removing them36:10 – New skills for an AI world39:00 – Beyond efficiency: meaningful work41:45 – Leadership: ask “should we automate?”44:10 – Practical design principles47:30 – The myth of full automation50:20 – Augment, don’t replace53:00 – Case studies from Concentrix56:40 – Making AI ethics actionable59:20 – The next five years of human-centred AI1:02:00 – Closing reflections1:04:30 – Where to find Richard1:06:00 – Outro & related episodesLinksRichard on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-chataway/Richard's book The Behaviour Business - https://behaviourbusiness.com/Richard's previous appearance on the show - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/richard-chataway-on-the-behaviour/Concentrix - https://www.concentrix.com/Richard at Concentrix - https://www.concentrix.com/contributor/richard-chataway/

What happens when the worst thing you’ve ever done becomes the foundation for your life’s work?Episode SummaryMy guest on this episode is Tom Hardin, otherwise known as Tipper X.  He's been on the show before, but this time we're tackling a different angle.If you don’t already know his story, Tom was a rising star in the hedge fund world in his twenties when he became involved in insider trading. Caught by the FBI, he made the decision to cooperate — ultimately becoming one of the most prolific informants in the largest investigation of its kind in U.S. history. His work with the FBI helped secure dozens of convictions, and while his own case remained under seal for years, he eventually chose to speak publicly about what happened — not to excuse it, but to help others understand how good people can make bad decisions.If you haven’t heard Tom’s first appearance on the show, where he tells that extraordinary story in full, I highly recommend listening to it here before diving into this episode.Because this time, we’re not talking about what he did back then; we’re talking about what he’s done since. Tom has built a powerful second act, using his experience to educate organisations about ethics, decision-making and behavioural risk. He’s now delivered over 600 talks, and what fascinates me is how he’s turned that into something both impactful and sustainable.His forthcoming book Wired on Wall Street is due out next year, and he’ll be back on the show to talk about that. But for now, I wanted to explore what it means to build a career from a cautionary tale. In this conversation, we explore:How Tom built a speaking business around his past without glamourising itThe frameworks he’s developed to help companies recognise ethical pressure pointsHow he navigates scepticism, manages reputation, and avoids turning his story into a performanceThe impact he hopes to have, and how he measures itThis is a conversation about vulnerability, professionalism, and doing good with what you’ve learned the hard way. Whether you're in compliance, leadership, education, or just curious about how we turn failure into purpose, this one’s for you.Guest ProfileTom is a former hedge fund analyst turned FBI informant, now a globally recognised speaker and ethics educator. Known as Tipper X, Tom shares his story to help others understand the behavioural drivers of misconduct and the power of accountability. AI Generated Timestamped Summary00:00 – IntroductionChristian shares the origin of this episode, his relationship with Tom, and the context behind the conversation.06:30 – The label “Tipper X” and living with itTom reflects on how it feels to be known by his code name and why he uses it professionally.09:00 – What it’s like to talk about the worst thing you’ve done, repeatedlyThe emotional and psychological toll of speaking publicly about past wrongdoing.13:00 – Keeping it fresh: updating the story and the messageHow Tom avoids becoming performative and ensures audiences always get something valuable.16:40 – Why it’s not entertainmentTom draws the line between education and storytelling-as-performance, and how he avoids glamorising his past.20:50 – The business model behind Tipper XThe practicalities of how Tom has built and sustained a speaking career rooted in his past.26:30 – Frameworks and tools Tom uses in his talksHe discusses behavioural insights and models he shares with audiences to make the message stick.31:00 – The “AI homework” storyA compelling example Tom uses to explain rationalisation and ethical grey areas.36:00 – Over 630 talks: managing the workload and the missionHow Tom tracks his talks and why he keeps going despite the repetition.39:10 – Audience reactions and confessionsWhat people tell Tom after his talks — and what that reveals about corporate culture.42:30 – “Why should we pay someone who committed a crime?”Christian and Tom unpack this ethical tension and why context, intent and delivery matter.48:00 – Building trust with clients and collaboratorsThe importance of transparency, humility and boundaries in how Tom presents himself.53:20 – What success really looks likeTom reflects on purpose, legacy and the long-term impact he hopes to have.57:00 – Looking ahead: the forthcoming book and continuing the conversation. Christian mentions Tom’s upcoming book Wired on Wall Street, and plans for a future episode.LinksPodcast: Tom’s previous appearance on the showTom's website: TipperX.comPre-order Tom's book Wired On Wall Street; https://www.amazon.com/Wired-Wall-Street-Prolific-Informants/dp/1394348878His LinkedIn profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tipperx/Tom's Substack Newsletter: https://tipperx.substack.com/

Why do so many workplaces run on bullshit processes and procedures?  And how might Behavioural Science help resolve them?Episode SummaryIn this episode, I sit down with author, speaker and advisor James Healy to explore his book BS at Work — and the everyday nonsense we all recognise inside organisations.James argues that while behavioural science has transformed public policy and consumer behaviour, workplaces have lagged behind. We dig into why leaders keep choosing rituals over results, why nobody seems to ask “does this actually work?”, and how our search for simple answers can make complex systems worse.I ask James to unpack some of his favourite stories, including the strange origins of the DISC personality test — created by Wonder Woman’s inventor, complete with “dominance” and “submission” baked in — and the utterly self-parodying experience he had with e-learning about not cheating on e-learning. 😳We talk context vs. character, box-ticking vs. behaviour change, and why “I don’t know” is often the most honest answer in big organisations. We finish on what to do instead. James doesn’t offer commandments — he offers principles that sometimes even contradict each other, because context matters.Together we make the case for designing environments that make the desired behaviours easier, embracing complexity with humility, and asking better questions — especially when a shiny quick fix is on the table.GUEST BIOJames is an author, speaker and executive advisor who applies behavioural science to organisational problems — with a mission to make workplaces more human. He's also the Founder and Managing Director of The Behaviour Boutique and host of The B-Word podcast, AI-GENERATED TIMESTAMPED SUMMARY[00:00:00] Introduction [00:03:00] James’s path: economics → philosophy → Kahneman & Tversky lightbulb. [00:06:00] The question James asks in orgs: “Does anybody think this will work?” [00:09:00] The missing third answer: “I don’t know” — and why nobody measures impact. [00:10:30] Why people stick with accepted rituals; self-preservation beats candour. [00:13:30] The book’s stance: no silver bullets; principles, not commandments. [00:16:00] Personality tests & categories; the DISC backstory via Wonder Woman. [00:20:00] Humans on continua, not binaries; our craving for neat boxes. [00:23:00] Complexity rising; we cling harder to simplicity and widen the gap. [00:24:30] The brain’s connectome as humility check; limits of two-by-two thinking. [00:27:00] Context > character; orgs try to “fix the individual” instead of the system. [00:29:00] Mixed signals: “be collaborative” vs. incentives and spaghetti systems. [00:34:00] AI and magical thinking; processes are simple “except for all the ways they’re not.” [00:41:00] Call-centre scripts vs. common sense — when design defeats judgment. [00:45:00] Purpose theatre: the Greggs poster and the risk of making things worse. [00:51:00] The e-learning about not cheating on e-learning; incentives and signals. [00:55:00] “Do something” bias (Geldof); why activity ≠ effectiveness in orgs. [01:00:00] Failure as feature; thinking critically beats imported “models.” [01:01:00] Book and podcast details; where to find James. LINKSJames on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-healy-behaviour-boutiqueJames' website for his business The Behaviour Boutique:  https://thebehaviourboutique.com/James' Book BS At Work: Why so much of modern work is bullshit and how behavioural science can make it better  - https://www.amazon.co.uk/BS-At-Work-bullshit-behavioural/dp/0646719173?ref_=ast_author_dpJames' Podcast The B Word - https://thebehaviourboutique.com/podcast/

What if the most powerful tool at work isn’t logic, but laughter? On this episode I'm speaking to a comedian who far from thinking humour is a workplace distraction, thinks it might be one of our most powerful tools. Episode SummaryMy guest is Pep Rosenfeld: comedian, improviser, and co-founder of the Amsterdam-based comedy institution Boom Chicago. He’s also the author of Work Laugh Balance, a manifesto for injecting humour into the working world. We explore why humour matters; not just as entertainment, but as a serious enabler of collaboration, communication, and honesty. Pep brings a unique perspective: part performer, part business trainer. We talk about how Boom Chicago went from late-night improv to a launchpad for corporate masterclasses in leadership and presentation. Along the way, we unpack the risks and rewards of using humour at work; what works, what really doesn’t, and how to find the line without crossing it. Pep shares ethical guidelines for office jokes, the power of self-deprecation, and why starting with a laugh can lead to deeper conversations. We also get into the craft of being funny.Pep explains why good comedy is rarely spontaneous, why AI still can’t tell a decent joke, and why live audiences matter more than ever. Whether you're trying to lighten the mood in a meeting or name the elephant in the room without causing a stampede, this episode offers practical ideas (and a few laughs) on how to do it with intelligence and care.AI-Generated Timestamped Summary[00:00:00] Opening on humour’s overlooked role in work; intro to Pep Rosenfeld[00:01:00] How Boom Chicago began as a summer comedy project in Amsterdam[00:04:00] Expanding into improv for kids on the autism spectrum[00:06:00] The book’s premise: humour fuels communication, leadership, and trust[00:11:00] Why advertisers and leaders alike should embrace humour[00:12:00] Rules for workplace humour: self-deprecate, avoid punching down, don’t get creepy[00:16:00] Comedy as a tool for tackling elephants in the room[00:23:00] The myth of improv: strong humor depends on thoughtful prep[00:26:00] The power of presence and live attention in comedy[00:33:00] What comedians offer that motivational speakers don’t[00:36:00] How Pep uses AI to show the limits of artificial humour[00:41:00] Using comedy to defuse fear and build connection[00:44:00] Parallel skills: being a lawyer vs. being a comedian[00:50:00] The energy difference between live and virtual comedy[00:55:00] Defining Work Laugh Balance: credibility without sterility[01:00:00] What’s next for Pep, where to find his work, and closing thoughtsLinksPep on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/pep-rosenfeld-394b2424/Boom Chicago, Pep's Amsterdam comedy club - https://boomchicago.nl/Work Laugh Balance - https://amzn.eu/d/678xGYNIf you eniyed this episode, then you might also like these previous episodes of the show:Comedy writer Paul Dornan on Being Truly Funny - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/paul-dornan-on-being-truly-funny/Improv Comedian Neil Mullarkey on Being In The Moment - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/neil-mullarkey-on-being-in-the-moment/Impressionist Josh Berry on Comedy, Satire and Impressions - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/josh-berry-on-comedy-satire-impressions-part-one/

Why do cyclists in London run red lights? It's against the law, and yet, if you've cycled, driven or just observed London's cyclists, you'll know that many of them don't stop when there's a red light. Confession time: I'm one of them. Not all the time, but some of the time, and weirdly not when I'm in Munich — the other city I live in — but only in London.The question of why this happens — not just my red light running, but the act in general — is the subject of this episode. Because I think this seemingly simple act can reveal so much about our compliance with rules, our perception of risk, and the way environments shape behaviour.To unpack these insights, I’m joined by Ella Jenkins, Associate Director at Thinks Insight, and Pete Dyson, a behavioural science researcher at the University of Bath and co-author of Transport for Humans.  They've been part of a research team on a study commissioned by Lime, the electric bike and scooter company, which explores why cyclists in London behave the way they do.What we discover isn’t about recklessness—it’s about confidence, social signalling, poor infrastructure, and the surprising psychology of compliance. In our conversation, we examine the drivers of red-light running, the effectiveness of different interventions, and what this means for broader behaviour change.Whether you’re a policymaker, a cyclist, or simply someone curious about how our minds and cities interact, this episode offers practical insights into one of the most visible — and misunderstood — forms of everyday noncompliance.Guest BiographiesElla Jenkins is an Associate Director at Thinks Insight, a strategy and research consultancy that helps clients understand human behaviour and deliver change. She led the research project commissioned by Lime to understand why cyclists in London run red lights. With a background in behavioural science and a passion for applying insights in real-world contexts, Ella brings both analytical rigour and empathy to her work.Pete Dyson is a behavioural science researcher at the University of Bath, where he focuses on transport systems and human behaviour. He is the co-author with Rory Sutherland of the influential book Transport for Humans: Are we nearly there yet? and previously served as the Principal Behavioural Scientist at the UK Department for Transport. He's also the current Cycling Mayor for the UK City of Bath.Pete blends practical policymaking experience with a deep understanding of the behavioural levers that shape how we move through the world.AI-Generated Timestamped Summary[00:00:00] Introduction and personal confession about red-light running[00:01:15] Overview of the Lime-commissioned research [00:03:20] Introducing Ella Jenkins and Pete Dyson[00:05:45] The origins and goals of the study[00:09:05] Red-light running as a defensive rather than reckless behaviour[00:12:08] Confidence and frequency of cycling linked to rule-breaking[00:13:14] Perceptions versus reality of who breaks the rules[00:16:32] The role of infrastructure and signal phasing[00:18:54] Social norms and peer influence on cyclist behaviour[00:21:46] Trust in the rules versus lived reality [00:24:20] Designing for behavioural cues[00:28:15] Comparison with other cities like Munich [00:30:58] The emotional context of cycling[00:34:46] Enforcement and views on potential interventions[00:38:12] Habit formation and unintended nudges [00:41:23] The interplay between education and empathy[00:46:49] Final reflections and Christian's closing thoughtsLinksElla on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ella-jenkins/Pete on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pete-dyson-9ba5301b/What drives red light running in London cyclists?, the research we discuss: https://fileserver.britainthinks.com/dl/wH4CcDyRg8bVThinks Insight: https://www.thinksinsight.com/Lime Bikes: https://www.li.me/en-gbTransport for Humans: https://www.transportforhumans.com/Pete's previous appearance on the show talking about Transport for Humans: https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/pete-dyson-on-making-transport-more-human/The announcement of Pete as Cycling Mayor of Bath: https://www.bath.ac.uk/announcements/the-bicycle-mayor-of-bath-pete-dyson/

What if the ideas that linger in the back of your mind — the ones you can’t quite explain — are the ones you most need to pay attention to?Episode SummaryIn this episode, I explore that question with Dr Nuno Reis, a former physicist and investment banker turned thinker and guide in uncovering what he calls rare dots — those unique, pre-verbal insights that feel deeply resonant but don’t yet fit into our existing models of the world.Our conversation begins with Nuno’s unusual career path, from string theory and theoretical physics into financial modelling and risk management, before moving into transparency roles in finance. From there, we trace the thread of his enduring curiosity: how crises drive paradigm shifts, why models are useful but limited, and what happens when we acknowledge that not everything fits into neat rational frameworks.Nuno then introduces the concept of rare dots and explains how he’s harnessing AI in a novel, deeply human way: not to replace thought, but to help us surface the preverbal ideas that shape our uniqueness. Together, we explore how rare dots can guide creativity, meaning, and innovation in our work and lives — and why paying attention to the things that don’t quite make sense may be the most sensible thing we can do.Guest BiographyDr Nuno Reis describes himself as a physicist turned banker turned explorer of human thinking. After completing a PhD in theoretical physics with a focus on string theory, he transitioned into investment banking at UBS and later into financial engineering and transparency initiatives at Bloomberg.Over 18 years in finance, he applied scientific methods to risk modelling, hedging, and complex derivatives, all while maintaining a deep curiosity about the limits of logic and models.Today, Nuno is the creator of the Rare Dots framework, which helps individuals and organisations uncover the pre-verbal insights that drive creativity and meaning. He combines philosophy, history of thought, and cutting-edge uses of AI to build environments where people can explore their deepest intuitions.Through workshops, cohorts, and his own practice, he guides others in turning those rare dots into pathways for innovation, purpose, and contribution.AI-Generated Timestamped Summary[00:00:00] Introduction and framing of rare dots as preverbal insights[00:01:00] Nuno’s background: from physics to banking and financial modelling[00:06:00] Applying scientific methods to markets and the 2008 crisis[00:12:00] Replication crisis and paradigm shifts in science[00:18:00] Early story of curiosity and existential questions[00:21:00] Introduction of rare dots as deeply resonant insights[00:26:00] How resonance and intuition shape meaning[00:30:00] Creating environments to surface rare dots[00:35:00] History of thinking vs history of ideas[00:40:00] Using AI as a tool for rare dots and Wittgenstein’s ladder[00:46:00] How AI can surface pre-verbal thinking[00:52:00] AI as a prompt for deeper human thinking[00:56:00] Rare dots exploration as an infinite game[01:02:00] Rare dots as a guide for careers and human valueLinksNuno on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/nuno-reis/Nuno's Substack - https://nunobreis.substack.com/

Is listening a hidden superpower we’ve overlooked?  You've heard of Active Listening, but what is Radical Listening and why does it matter?Episode SummaryOn this episode, I’m joined by Professor Christian van Nieuwerburgh, an academic who also describes himself as 'Coach on a Motorcycle'. He's on the show to help me explore what he calls 'Radical Listening'.Christian is Professor of Coaching and Positive Psychology at the University of East London and the co-author, with Dr Robert Biswas-Diener, of 'Radical Listening: The Art of True Connection'.The book offers a research-backed but deeply human exploration of what it means to really hear someone — and how that act alone can change lives. In the book and in his work, Christian blends academic rigour with road-tested coaching insights, drawing from both the lecture hall and long rides through open landscapes. He invites us to look at listening not just as a skill, but as a way of being.With a background in positive psychology and a passion for connection, Christian brings a perspective that’s as practical as it is profound. We talk about how listening — when done with presence and intention — becomes far more than a communication technique. It becomes a way of affirming identity, offering empathy, and shaping culture. Christian shares why well-meaning advice often misses the mark, the difference between social and cognitive listening, and what it takes to be with someone, rather than just hearing them.This isn’t just for leaders or coaches;  it’s for anyone who wants to have better conversations, create stronger relationships, and be more human in how they engage with others. Listening, as we discuss, isn’t neutral. It’s powerful, personal, and radically transformative.Guest BiographyProfessor Christian van Nieuwerburgh is a globally recognised executive coach, academic, and author, holding the title of Professor of Coaching and Positive Psychology at the University of East London.As Managing Director of the International Centre for Coaching Psychology and Executive Director at Growth Coaching International, he bridges rigorous research with practice.He co-authored Radical Listening: The Art of True Connection (with Dr Robert Biswas‑Diener), which reorients listening from a background skill to a central act of human connection.Famously known as the “Coach on a Motorcycle,” Christian combines his love for the open road with his dedication to how we hear and are heard. Learn more at: LinksRadical Listening - https://www.bkconnection.com/books/title/Radical-ListeningRadical Listening Audiobook - https://www.audible.co.uk/pd/Radical-Listening-Audiobook/B0F2B3TKXVChristian's faculty page at Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland (RCSI) - https://people.rcsi.com/chrisvnChristian's faculty page at Henley Business School - https://www.henley.ac.uk/people/christian-j-van-nieuwerburghCoach on a Motorcycle - coachonamotorcycle.comAI-Generated Timestamped Summary[00:01:45] — The roots of Radical Listening[00:06:30] — How coaching principles intersect with everyday conversations[00:11:55] — When advice becomes unhelpful[00:17:40] — Listening as identity-affirming behaviour[00:22:00] — When a good question stops you in your tracks[00:27:30] — Social vs cognitive listening[00:33:10] — Why you don’t need to understand the topic to be a great listener[00:38:45] — The unspoken costs of poor listening in organisations[00:44:50] — How Radical Listening links to psychological safety[00:49:20] — Motorcycles, mindfulness, and being in flow[00:56:00] — The AI comparison: why listening is a human art[01:01:00] — Practical takeaways for everyday listeners

Why do we follow orders or go along with things that feel wrong? Why might defiance be better than compliance? And how can we go about becoming more defiant?Episode SummaryI’ve always been fascinated by why people obey, even when it clashes with their instincts or values. In this conversation, I’m joined by Dr Sunita Sah — a physician-turned-organisational psychologist whose work explores the hidden social, cultural, and psychological forces behind compliance. Drawing from her research and personal journey, Sunita reframes defiance as alignment with our true values, not reckless rebellion. We unpack concepts like “insinuation anxiety” — the discomfort of signalling someone else might be wrong — and explore her five-stage model of defiance, from recognising tension to taking decisive action. Sunita explains why compliance is often mistaken for consent, why both have distinct definitions, and why many of us have never practised saying “no” skillfully. Along the way, she shares vivid examples from medicine, aviation, parenting, and history, including the calculated defiance of Rosa Parks. For leaders, Sunita offers a challenge: create environments where dissent is safe and effective, and treat defiance as valuable feedback. For all of us, she suggests starting small — practising low-stakes resistance to build our “defiance muscle.” Whether you’re a rule-maker, rule-follower, or both, this episode invites you to rethink the stories you tell yourself about compliance, and to see saying “no” as a powerful tool for living with integrity. Guest Bio Self-Description:Dr Sunita Sah is a physician-turned-organisational psychologist and Professor of Management Studies at Cornell University. Her research examines the social, organisational, and psychological forces that influence decision-making, particularly in contexts involving authority, conflicts of interest, and ethical dilemmas. She is the author of Defy: The Power of No in a World That Demands Yes (US title: Defy: How to Speak Up When It Matters), a book that reframes defiance as a vital life skill. AI-Generated Timestamped Summary [00:00:00] Opening & why we obey even when it feels wrong[00:02:00] Sunita’s career journey: medicine to organisational psychology[00:05:00] Personal experiences shaping her research[00:07:00] Redefining compliance vs. consent[00:10:00] The five elements of informed consent[00:11:00] Introducing “insinuation anxiety”[00:14:00] High-stakes and low-stakes examples of silence[00:18:00] Why people resist defiance — lack of skill and practice[00:20:00] New definition of defiance as value alignment[00:23:00] Tension as the first stage of defiance[00:25:00] Stage 3: asking clarification questions[00:27:00] Scripts for skilful defiance[00:30:00] Practising in low-stakes situations[00:33:00] Speaking up for others vs. for oneself[00:36:00] Defiance as a skill, not a personality[00:38:00] Calculating safety and effectiveness of defiance[00:41:00] Costs of compliance vs. costs of defiance[00:44:00] Clarifying values to lower stress and improve integrity[00:46:00] Leadership responsibility for safe dissent[00:48:00] Performative vs. genuine speak-up systems[00:50:00] Defiance as contagious behaviour[00:52:00] The role of mischief and playful resistance[00:56:00] Saying yes when the world expects no[00:58:00] Advice for compliance officers and leaders[01:00:00] Upcoming courses on defiance and decision-makingLinksSunita's website: https://www.sunitasah.comDefy: The Power of No in a World That Demands Yes — https://www.sunitasah.com/defySunita's Cornell University faculty profile — https://www.johnson.cornell.edu/faculty-research/faculty/sunitasah/

What happens when citizens lose faith in the institutions that serve them? And how can we rebuild that trust?Episode SummaryOn this episode, I'm speaking to someone who cares passionately about this subject and who has made it her life's work to research and solve it.  From politicians who lie, to corruption scandals, to public services that simply don’t work the way we expect—especially when we're paying taxes and getting poor value—something feels broken. I want to know: how do we understand and respond to that breakdown of faith?Libby Maman, founder and CEO of Luminata, whose work turns abstract values like transparency, accountability, participation and inclusiveness into tangible, measurable trust indicators.We dig into why conventional approaches to rebuilding trust often backfire, and how designing systems that measure the right things can actually shift organisational behaviour for the better.You'll hear not only how trust can be mapped, measured and managed—but why that matters. We challenge assumptions: do metrics actually undermine trust? Or can they signal seriousness, credibility and responsiveness? Libby shares concrete examples of stakeholder‑led indicators, behavioural logic in gamification, and the limitations and opportunities of measuring democratic values.Guest Biography: Libby MamanLibby Maman is a researcher and systems designer working at the intersection of public policy, behavioural science and institutional design. She is the founder and CEO of Luminata, a consultancy that partners with governments and civil society to build measurable trust frameworks.  Libby’s broader background spans academia, consulting and public sector work.Her research focuses on translating democratic norms—such as transparency, accountability and inclusiveness—into practical metrics that organisations can both implement and act on. Through Luminata, she has worked with national and local governments to co‑design trust indicators that respond to real stakeholder needs and drive change.AI-Generated Timestamp Summary[00:00:00] Introduction: Declining trust in public bodies and the stakes of measurement[00:02:45] Libby’s background and mission at Luminata[00:05:30] Why traditional trust-building (PR, appeals to values) often fails[00:10:15] Designing trust indicators: transparency, accountability, participation, inclusiveness[00:15:40] Co‑design with stakeholders to ensure relevance and buy‑in[00:20:10] Behavioural logic: how metrics can motivate institutional change[00:25:00] Risks of aspirational vs realistic measurement targets[00:30:00] Trust-politicisation: when metrics become tools of power[00:35:20] Case examples of gamified measurement and its impact[00:40:00] The relationship between trust-building and voluntary compliance[00:45:30] Limitations: measurement isn’t magic—but it's a start[00:50:00] Final reflections on what organisations must do to grow trustLinks:Libby's website - Luminata website (Libby’s consultancy) Libby on LinkedIn Relevant Previous EpisodesProfessor Yuval Feldman on why we should write rules for good people not bad peopleProfessor Yuval Feldman on Trust & Voluntary ComplianceHilary Sutcliffe on TrustDr Jake Mazulewicz on Human Reliability

We’ve all heard the phrase ‘the show must go on’.  But when shouldn’t the show go on?  To help me answer that, I’m speaking to someone who has spent 35 years managing some of Australia’s most iconic large-scale events — from Taylor Swift concerts to public city spectacles with crowds over 200,000, and corporate experiences — and has often faced the question: when should the show really stop?My guest is Iain Morrison, wh,o as well as having a background in events, is now the CEO of a startup that builds hyper‑accurate 3D and VR plans for event venues.Episode SummaryIn this episode, I dig into what happens when the entertainment world’s credo — “the show must go on” — becomes a liability, and what it feels like backstage to carry that kind of responsibility. Iain explains the importance of having show‑stop protocols long before trouble arrives — whether it’s crowd crush, heart attacks in the crowd, or approaching severe weather. He explains how event organisers need to make decisions in advance so that nobody freezes under pressure, and ensure everyone is aligned on who can stop the show, and how and when to restart it. We also delve into the emotional toll of the event industry — the brutal hours, constant touring, adrenaline highs, and the realities of burnout. Ian talks candidly about putting people at risk by cutting critical breaks and how easily event teams can burn out. Finally, he walks me through his pivot: building a tech startup that uses 3D planning and virtual models to give event teams a fully visual planning tool — reducing surprises, improving safety, and supporting better decisions from the very first draft. GUEST BIOGRAPHYIain is an event manager with over three decades of experience in running major concerts, festivals, and public spectacles across Australia. He has helped deliver live shows for acts like Taylor Swift, U2, Foo Fighters, major public events on the Sydney Harbour Bridge and Domain Concert series, with crowds ranging from 5,000 to over 200,000. From high school theatre beginnings to early work at Opera Australia and the Sydney Opera House, Ian transitioned into corporate events, the Olympics, and large public outdoor events. He has worked in high-pressure environments where crowd safety, terrorism threats, public order, and weather call-offs were part of the job on a daily basis. About two years ago, he moved from event delivery to event technology — as CEO and co‑founder of The Imagination Collaborative, Ian now leads a startup building hyper‑accurate 3D and VR planning tools. These digital twins help event teams visualise venue layouts, crowd flows, sightlines, signage, camera positions, evacuation routes and more—before anything is built on site.AI-GENERATED TIMESTAMPED SUMMARY[00:00:00] Introduction[00:02:00] Ian’s backstory: school theatre → university → Opera House → major events[00:05:00] Scale of events: from 5,000 attendees to crowds of over 200,000[00:08:00] Types of risk at live events: crowd crush, terrorism threats, medical events[00:12:00] Why events remain largely unregulated worldwide[00:15:00] Concept of a “show stop”: planning for what enables safe cancellation or pause[00:20:00] Decision‑making under stress: protocols versus ego-based pressure[00:25:00] Real scenarios: thunderstorms, crowd reaction, and restart challenges[00:28:00] Emotional cost on crews: burnout, long hours, compressed touring schedules[00:32:00] Industry taboo around mental health and burnout; making it safer for staff[00:36:00] Ian’s use of social media to spark conversations on stress, safety and standards[00:40:00] Introduction to Ian’s startup: detailed planning with 3D environments and VR[00:44:00] How the tool works: drone scans, venue models, client interaction in virtual space[00:48:00] Benefits: fewer surprises, better sightlines, optimised signage, cost savings[00:51:00] Future plans: integrating crowd simulation, digital twin models, global expansion[00:55:00] Final reflections: the trade‑offs of delivering magic vs ensuring safety[00:57:00] Wrap‑upLINKS Iain on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/iainmorrison1/Iain’s website - https://iainmorrison.global/ Iain’s startup, The Imagination Collaborative - https://www.theimaginationcollaborative.com/