
Discourse in Magic
Jonah Babins from Discourse in Magic tackles magic’s hardest issues, theories, philosophies, discussion, and more to help you explore. He jumps into all sorts of magic, and resources, and most importantly actionable tips to help better the art and become a killer performer!
Latest episodes

Apr 27, 2023 • 1h 12min
Cheat, Sleights, and the Magic Circle with Laura London
Laura London is a legend in the magic community. She’s been on Penn & Teller’s Fool Us and The Next Great Magician. She’s had her own show, Cheat, in the Edinburgh Fringe. She’s an Inner Magic Circle member of the Magic Circle and she shares her incredible story and upbringing into the way of magic and how you can build a show too.
In this discussion Laura opens up about her early diagnoses with ADHD as a child and how that led to her mother’s support in her creative pursuits and an early encounter with magic legend George Kovari. She takes us through her teenage years when she left home and lived rough on the streets performing magic wherever she could and yet overcame the odds to become the youngest member of the Magic Circle on her 18th birthday. From having no degrees or completing any formal education she’s now working as the librarian of the Magic Circle.
She didn’t accomplish all this on her own though and shares the story about how Fay Presto became her mentor and taught her all about how to be an entertainer. She’ll share with you the lessons she’s learned on how to find your grit and get out and just do it as well as offering advice on how to track down and book a residency of your own.
Wrap-Up
Endless Chain
Richard McDougal & Paul Kieve
What do you like about modern magic? What do you not like?
We are encouraging more and more people in a positive way, especially young girls. I’m seeing more and more young teenagers coming up to me at conventions and they’re good! We’re in good hands.
I would love to encourage more young people to get into the history of magic.
Plugs
For all the magic that Laura has already released visit lauralondonmagic.co.uk
Learn more about the pioneering work being done at Breathe Magic by visiting breatheahr.org
Check out the Midnights playing cards by Breathe Magic at most online stores, one such listing we found is here at VanishingMagic.com
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Apr 20, 2023 • 10min
Magic Appetizer: Three Ways To Use AI In Your Magic Business
Jonah dives into artificial intelligence and how it can potentially help you out with your magic business. In this magician’s appetizer he’ll touch on three ways to use AI in your magic business including how to fix your replies to clients, help drive more traffic to your website, and how maximize the effectiveness of your cold emails.
You can check out ChatGPT right now, for free, and try these tips out for yourself. If you’d like help doing any of this stuff you can always email Jonah at magic@orontomagiccompany.com with the term “AI” in the subject.
The post Magic Appetizer: Three Ways To Use AI In Your Magic Business appeared first on Discourse in Magic.

Apr 13, 2023 • 1h 46min
Creating Magic With Content with Todd Robbins
This week Jonah is joined by sideshow and magic legend Todd Robbins. Todd has had an action packed career that has sent him around the the last of the sideshows to creating theatre productions alongside Teller to running what may be the greatest magic show that has ever existed, Speakeasy Magic at the McKittrick Hotel.
In this conversation Todd shares with Jonah how he ended up learning sideshow as a kid to eventually befriending Penn & Teller. He offers up the lessons he’s learned when creating shows for theatre and helps explain the difference between entertainment and art.
Wrap-Up
Endless Chain
Erika Larsen, Blaise Serra, Matt Holtzclaw, & Prakash Puru
What do you like about modern magic? What do you not like?
The greatest level of technique in the history of magic is going on right now thanks to the internet and the sharing of ideas.
There’s more magic now than there has ever been and yet it’s not making an impact that an old television special would do.
Take home point
Create something that has content. Create something that the audience hasn’t seen before.
Plugs
Find out more about Speakeasy Magic at mckittrickhotel.com
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Apr 6, 2023 • 1h 1min
Unlocking Your Magic Creativity with Kim Andersen
Jonah connects with Kim Andersen, a comedy magician from Denmark who has created some unforgettable magic products. In this conversation he’ll share with Jonah how he found himself immersed in the Danish magic scene, how he found himself creating content for his own television show, how he goes about challenging himself to keep creating, and why he always carries coins into the shower.
Wrap-Up
Endless Chain
Jan Hellesøe is one of the biggest mentalists in Denmark with heaps of tv shows behind him and works closely with big magicians and theatre as a builder.
What do you like about modern magic? What do you not like?
Does not like the piracy of magic content. Folks should respect creators more. Creating magic will only continue if people actually get credited and paid for what they do.
That said, Kim really appreciates the internet. It’s been one of the greatest tools to learn magic and network with other magicians.
Take home point
Have fun and play.
Plugs
The best place to reach out to Kim is through instagram: @kimander5en
You can get Silver Edge 1 & 2 at ellusionist.com
You can find his Penguin live lecture over at penguinmagic.com
And you can find his product, Shrapnel, almost any place where magic products are sold!
Finally, you can learn more about Magic Beep by visiting pegani.dk
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Mar 30, 2023 • 1h 24min
Never Before Seen Magic with Tobias Dostal
Magic inventor Tobias Dostal discusses his unique approach to magic, blending art and illusion. He shares insights on creativity, finding inspiration, and the importance of creating original magic tricks. Tobias emphasizes the need for magicians to carve their path and find their style. He also highlights the increasing presence of women in the magic scene and encourages magicians to seek new tricks outside the classics.

Mar 23, 2023 • 24min
Magic Appetizer: Touring, Conventions, and Growing Your Business
Jonah is back with all new episodes of Discourse in Magic!
After taking time off after the busy holiday season, Jonah has been busy touring and attending events around the country and beyond. In this episode he’ll catch you up on his lecture and performance tours as well as filling you in on his experiences attending Magifest and Blackpool. Jonah will also offer up tips on how to launch your own performance tour and what you can do to help grow your magic business during the slowest time of the year.
If you’d like to learn more about booking the “Ben & Jonah Mean Business” lecture or would like to join up for one of the remaining seats available in Jonah’s six-figure mastermind course then e-mail Jonah at magic@torontomagiccompany.com, and be sure to include the word “intensive” in the subject if you’re interested in that mastermind course!
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Nov 17, 2022 • 1h 6min
Magic for the Crowd with Siegfried & Joy
Jonah is joined by Siegfried & Joy. This duo from Germany has been taking the world by storm with their silly and engaging TikTok videos, an hilarious performance on America’s Got Talent, and sold out shows wherever they go. They’ll reveal to Jonah all of their secrets, except where they get their fabulous outfits!
More Than A Parody
When you first see Siegfried & Joy appear on stage you may begin to think that they are a parody of magic but if you were to listen to them you’d realize that while they are certainly having a lot of fun with the imagery of what classic magic has looked like in the past they are earnest about their love of the artform and take their presentation with the crowd very seriously.
Siegfried & Joy share with Jonah their philosophy behind their performance. They don’t practice, they don’t script, and they never rehearse. To them the real work begins and ends with the interaction with the crowd. It is in the crowd that they find their performance and perfect their act.
Not Afraid To Fail
No scripts means high risk but Siegfried & Joy are quick to admit that they aren’t afraid to fail, even when they fail live on stage in front of an audience or mistakenly flash their work on a TikTok video. In fact, to hear it from them it sounds like they fail all the time on stage and where other performers would go backstage and burst into tears they, instead, embrace the messy side of live acts and allow their audience a brief glimpse behind the curtain as they work to recover the show.
More Than A Success
Two Siegfried & Joy shows are never the same, they are constantly re-working their routine in front of the audience and often involve the crowd in their performances. They share with Jonah their secret to building up such a chaotic style of performance into a show that is now regularly sold out in Berlin. They’ll also share why they decided not to continue into the next round of America’s Got Talent and what they loved and hated about their visit to Las Vegas.
Wrap-Up
Endless Chain
Tobias Dostal
What do you like about modern magic? What do you not like?
“We hate online shows, we watched a few but we don’t think this is how artists should share this art. “
“We love that the zeitgeist is on board with classical magic. This is the best time for magic. This is the moment to go out, inspire people, and make them happy.”
Take home point
There is one name you should remember: Siegfried & Joy
Plugs
Just google Siegfried & Joy. “And if you don’t find us then the algorithm will find you!”
The post Magic for the Crowd with Siegfried & Joy appeared first on Discourse in Magic.

Nov 10, 2022 • 54min
How We Got On Fool Us
Jonah and Ben answer all your questions about how they got their appearance on Penn and Teller’s Fool Us, and how you can get yours too.
How Did We Get On?
Ben had actually been approached before as his name was passed around as a potential candidate, but back then when he applied they declined. As years went on and Jonah and Ben found themselves locked down together during the pandemic they decided to work together and apply a duo act, a new pairing that they hadn’t tried before but found they enjoyed working together.
Jonah and Ben share with you how they worked together as a team to invent the trick they performed on Fool Us and how they have worked out their dynamics as they’ve moved from solo performances to a duo act.
How Did We Pick The Trick?
How did they pick the trick they performed on Fool Us? They didn’t!
At first Ben and Jonah submitted their tricks they were doing for their virtual Zoom shows. The response from the show producers was that they liked their energy but the tricks needed tweaking.
Ultimately their answer would lie in their Youtube series diving into the Tarbell books in magic. In that series Jonah and Ben would each challenge each other to find a different Tarbell trick and give it a modern twist. It was from that series that the Watermelon Trick was born.
Jonah and Ben break down the entire process of developing the Watermelon Trick and what it was like auditioning it to the Fool Us producers, what worked, what didn’t, and what changed before it made it onto television.
How Did We Prepare?
Finally they had caught the interest of Fool Us, but unfortunately it was for a new trick they had never performed before. How did Jonah and Ben prepare to perform the Watermelon Trick in front of Penn & Teller? How did they work out what to say, where to stand, and where to look? They go over all the meticulous planning, practicing, and rehearsing that went into getting the trick up to the quality that they’d perform on Fool Us.
Plugs
Check out the Toronto Magic Company’s Youtube Channel to watch the performance on Fool Us as well as the Tarbell Challenge videos that started the journey to discovering the trick they performed for Penn & Teller.
https://www.youtube.com/c/TorontoMagicCompany
And check out Jonah’s previous conversation with Teller:
https://discourseinmagic.com/a-life-of-magic-with-teller/
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Nov 3, 2022 • 2min
Fool Us, Starring Jonah Babins and Ben Train!
This week Jonah wants you to do one thing, which is to watch him and Ben Train perform on Pen & Teller’s Fool Us which airs for the first time on Friday November 4th, 2022!
The post Fool Us, Starring Jonah Babins and Ben Train! appeared first on Discourse in Magic.

Oct 27, 2022 • 1h 3min
Aiming Higher with Mortenn Christiansen
Mortenn Christiansen is a Danish magician who recently won first place at FISM 2022 for comedy. He shares with Jonah his story about growing up without any magicians around him to aim higher and farther than even he originally thought he could accomplish.
A Kid and a Magic Shop
Mortenn was twelve when he discovered his local magic shop, eventually spending so much time there that they would offer him a job where he continues to work there to this day. At the shop he taught himself to learn English, since all the magic instructions he had were printed in english. At first he had no desire to perform, for Mortenn the magic was enough. Eventually, however, he would reach out and began performing in local competitions. It wouldn’t be long before he was winning so often that they would stop letting him compete just to be fair to the other competitors.
Magicians Are Not Great Performers
Mortenn challenges the notion that every magician should perform and recognizes that it’s really strange that this artform, compared to any other, almost mandates that everyone who wants to learn magic must also perform magic. Take away the secret behind the routine and most magicians struggle to be engaging performers, but this shouldn’t be a bad thing and Mortenn encourages everyone, including those who don’t feel like they would be strong performers, to still study and learn magic just for themselves.
If you do decide to perform he offers up the lessons he’s learned himself and pushes everyone to keep their set original. It would be very weird to perform an exact copy of a comedy routine yet in the realm of magic it’s totally acceptable. Keep making stuff and working on original stuff and never let yourself feel like your trick is ever done and doesn’t need additional improvements or modifications. Keep working at it, and always aim higher.
Wrap-Up
Endless Chain
Rune Klan
What do you like about modern magic? What do you not like?
Likes the Zoom shows. Mortenn regrets not getting into Zoom shows but admires how well the magic community adapted to changing needs of both performer and audience.
Does not like magicians who don’t think.
Take home point
Think better. Try to aim higher. It doesn’t have to fool magicians but thinking that it should fool a smart person. Do not assume that lay people are dumb.
Plugs
Instagram: @mortennmortenn
You can also find Mortenn at Vanishing Ink’s conventions, The Session, in London, and Magifest in Ohio, USA both in January where he will be performing his FISM winning routine.
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