#AmWriting

In this Write Big session of the #amwriting podcast, host Jennie Nash welcomes Pulitzer Prize–winning journalist Jennifer Senior for a powerful conversation about finding, knowing, and claiming your voice.Jennifer shares how a medication once stripped away her ability to think in metaphor—the very heart of her writing—and what it was like to get that voice back. She and Jennie talk about how voice strengthens over time, why confidence and ruthless editing matter, and what it feels like when you’re truly writing in flow.It’s an inspiring reminder that your voice is your greatest strength—and worth honoring every time you sit down to write.TRANSCRIPT BELOW!THINGS MENTIONED IN THIS PODCAST:* Jennifer’s Fresh Air interview with Terry Gross: Can’t Sleep? You’re Not Alone* Atlantic feature story: What Bobby McIlvaine Left Behind* Atlantic feature story: The Ones We Sent Away* Atlantic feature story: It’s Your Friends Who Break Your Heart* The New York Times article: Happiness Won’t Save You* Heavyweight the podcastSPONSORSHIP MESSAGEHey, it’s Jennie Nash. And at Author Accelerator, we believe that the skills required to become a great book coach and build a successful book coaching business can be taught to people who come from all kinds of backgrounds and who bring all kinds of experiences to the work. But we also know that there are certain core characteristics that our most successful book coaches share. If you’ve been curious about becoming a book coach, and 2026 might be the year for you, come take our quiz to see how many of those core characteristics you have. You can find it at bookcoaches.com/characteristics-quiz.EPISODE TRANSCRIPTJennie NashHi, I’m Jennie Nash, and you’re listening to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast. This is a Write Big Session, where I’m bringing you short episodes about the mindset shifts that help you stop playing small and write like it matters. This one might not actually be that short, because today I’m talking to journalist Jennifer Senior about the idea of finding and knowing and claiming your voice—a rather big part of writing big. Jennifer Senior is a staff writer at The Atlantic. She won the Pulitzer Prize for feature writing in 2022 and was a finalist again in 2024. Before that, she spent five years at The New York Times as both a daily book critic and a columnist for the opinion page, and nearly two decades at New York Magazine. She’s also the author of a bestselling parenting book, and frequently appears on NPR and other news shows. Welcome, Jennifer. Thanks for joining us.Jennifer SeniorThank you for having me. Hey, I got to clarify just one thing.Jennie NashOh, no.Jennifer SeniorAll Joy and No Fun is by no means a parenting book. I can’t tell you the first thing about how to raise your kids. It is all about how kids change their parents. It’s all like a sociological look at who we become and why we are—so our lives become so vexed. I like, I would do these book talks, and at the end, everybody would raise their hand and be like, “How do I get my kid into Harvard?” You know, like, the equivalent obviously—they wouldn’t say it that way. I’d be like; I don’t really have any idea, or how to get your kid to eat vegetables, or how to get your kid to, like, stop talking back. But anyway, I just have to clarify that, because every time...Jennie NashPlease, please—Jennifer SeniorSomeone says that, I’m like, “Noooo.” Anyway, it’s a sociology book. Ah, it’s an ethnography, you know. But anyway, it doesn’t matter.Jennie NashAll right, like she said, you guys—not what I said.Jennifer SeniorI’m not correcting you. It came out 11 years ago. There were no iPads then, or social media. I mean, forget it. It’s so dated anyway. But like, I just...Jennie NashThat’s so funny. So the reason that we’re speaking is that I heard you recently on Fresh Air with Terry Gross, where you were talking about an Atlantic feature story that you wrote called “Why Can’t Americans Sleep?” And this was obviously a reported piece, but also a really personal piece and you’re talking about your futile attempts to fall asleep and the latest research into insomnia and medication and therapy that you used to treat it, and we’ll link to that article and interview in the show notes. But the reason that we’re talking, and that in the middle of this conversation, which—which I’m listening to and I’m riveted by—you made this comment, and it was a little bit of a throwaway comment in the conversation, and, you know, then the conversation moved on. But you talked about how you were taking a particular antidepressant you’d been prescribed, and this was the quote you said: “It blew out all the circuitry that was responsible for generating metaphors, which is what I do as a writer. So it made my writing really flat.” And I was just like, hold up. What was that like? What happened? What—everything? So that’s why we’re talking. So… can we go back to the very beginning? If you can remember—Jess Lahey actually told me that when she was teaching fifth and sixth grade, that’s around the time that kids begin to grasp this idea of figurative language and metaphor and such. Do you remember learning how to write like that, like write in metaphor and simile and all such things?Jennifer SeniorOh, that’s funny. Do I remember it? I remember them starting to sort of come unbidden in my—like they would come unbidden in my head starting maybe in my—the minute I entered college, or maybe in my teens. Actually, I had that thing where some people have this—people who become writers have, like, a narrator’s voice in their head where they’re actually looking at things and describing them in the third person. They’re writing them as they witness the world. That went away, that narrator’s voice, which I also find sort of fascinating. But, like, I would say that it sort of emerged concurrently. I guess I was scribbling a little bit of, like, short story stuff, or I tried at least one when I was a senior in high school. So that was the first time maybe that, like, I started realizing that I had a flair for it. I also—once I noticed that, I know in college I would make, you know, when I started writing for the alternative weekly and I was reviewing things, particularly theater, I would make a conscientious effort to come up with good metaphors, and, like, 50% of them worked and 50% of them didn’t, because if you ever labor over a metaphor, there’s a much lower chance of it working. I mean, if you come—if you revisit it and go, oh, that’s not—you know, that you can tell if it’s too precious. But now if I labor over a metaphor, I don’t bother. I stop. You know, it has to come instantaneously or...Jennie NashOr that reminds me of people who write with the thesaurus open, like that’s going to be good, right? That’s not going to work. So I want to stick with this, you know, so that they come into your head, you recognize that, and just this idea of knowing, back in the day, that you could write like that—you… this was a thing you had, like you used the word “flair,” like had a flair for this. Were there other signs or things that led you to the work, like knowing you were good, or knowing when something was on the page that it was right, like, what—what is that?Jennifer SeniorIt’s that feeling of exhilaration, but it’s also that feeling of total bewilderment, like you’ve been struck by something—something just blew through you and you had nothing to do with it. I mean, it’s the cliché: here I am saying the metaphors are my superpower, which my editors were telling me, and I’m about to use a cliché, which is that you feel like you’re a conduit for something and you have absolutely nothing to do with it. So I would have that sense that it had almost come without conscious thought. That was sort of when I knew it was working. It’s also part of being in a flow state. It’s when you’re losing track of time and you’re just in it. And the metaphors are—yeah, they’re effortless. By the way, my brain is not entirely fogged in from long COVID, but I have noticed—and at first I didn’t really notice any decrements in cognition—but recently, I have. So I’m wondering now if I’m having problems with spontaneous metaphor generation. It’s a little bit disconcerting. And I do feel like all SSRIs—and I’m taking one now, just because, not just because long COVID is depressing, but because I have POTS, which is like a—it’s Postural Orthostatic Tachycardia Syndrome, and that’s a very common sequela from long COVID, and it wipes out your plasma serotonin. So we have to take one anyway, we POTS patients. So I found that nicotine often helped with my long COVID, which is a thing—like a nicotine patch—and that made up for it. It almost felt like I was doping [laughing]. It made my writing so much better. But it’s been...Jennie NashWait, wait, wait, this is so interesting.Jennifer SeniorI know…it’s really weird. I would never have guessed that so much of my writing would be dampened by Big Pharma. I mean—but now with the nicotine patches, I was like, oh, now I get why writers are smoking until into the night, writing. Like, I mean, and I always wished that I did, just because it looked cool, you know? I could have just been one of those people with their Gitanes, or however you pronounce it, but, yeah.Jennie NashWow. So I want to come—I want to circle back to this in a minute, but let’s get to the first time—well, it sounds like the first time that happened where you were prescribed an antidepressant and—and you recognized that you lost the ability to write in metaphor. Can you talk about—well, first of all, can you tell us what the medication was?Jennifer SeniorYeah, it was Paxil, which is actually notorious for that. And at the top—which I only subsequently discovered—those were in the days where there were no such things as Reddit threads or anything like that. It was 1999… I guess, no, eight, but so really early. That was the bespoke antidepressant at the time, thought to be more nuanced. I think it’s now fallen out of favor, because it’s also a b***h to wean off of. But it was kind of awful, just—I would think, and nothing would come. It was the strangest thing. For—there’s all this static electricity usually when you write, right? And there’s a lot of free associating that goes on that, again, feels a little involuntary. You know, you start thinking—it’s like you’ve pulled back the spring in the pinball machine, and suddenly the thing is just bouncing around everywhere, and the ball wasn’t bouncing around. Nothing was lighting up. It was like a dis… it just was strange, to be able to summon nothing.Jennie NashWow. So you—you just used this killer metaphor to describe that.Jennifer SeniorYeah, that was spontaneous.Jennie NashRight? So—so you said first, you said static, static energy, which—which is interesting.Jennifer SeniorYeah, it’s... [buzzing sound]Jennie NashYeah. Yeah. Because it’s noisy. You’re talking about...Jennie SeniorOh, but it’s not disruptive noise. Sorry, that might seem like it’s like unwanted crackling, like on your television. I didn’t really—yeah, maybe that’s the wrong metaphor, actually, maybe the pinball is sort of better, that all you need is to, you know, psych yourself up, sit down, have your caffeine, and then bam, you know? But I didn’t mean static in that way.Jennie NashI understood what you meant. There’s like a buzzy energy.Jennifer SeniorYeah, right. It’s fizz.Jennie NashFizz... that’s so good. So you—you recognized that this was gone.Jennifer SeniorSo gone! Like the TV was off, you know?Jennie NashAnd did you...?Jennifer SeniorOr the machine, you know, was unplugged? I mean, it’s—Jennie NashYeah, and did you? I’m just so curious about the part of your brain that was watching another part of your brain.Jennifer Senior[Laughing] You know what? I think... oh, that’s really interesting. But are you watching, or are you just despairing because there’s nothing—I mean, I’m trying to think if that’s the right...Jennie NashBut there’s a part of your brain that’s like, this part of my brain isn’t working.Jennifer SeniorRight. I’m just thinking how much metacognition is involved in— I mean, if you forget a word, are you really, like, staring at that very hard, or are you just like, s**t, what’s the word? If you’re staring at Jack Nicholson on TV, and you’re like, why can’t I remember that dude’s name?Multiple speakers[Both laughing]Jennifer SeniorWhich happens to me far more regularly now, [unintelligible]… than it used to, you know? I mean, I don’t know. There is a part of you that’s completely alarmed, but, like, I guess you’re right. There did come a point where I—you’re right, where I suddenly realized, oh, there’s just been a total breakdown here. It’s never happening. Like, what is going on? Also, you know what would happen? Every sentence was a grind, like...Jennie NashOkay, so—okay, so...Jennifer Senior[Unintelligible]... Why is this so effortful? When you can’t hold the previous sentence in your head, suddenly there’s been this lapse in voice, right? Because, like, if every sentence is an effort and you’re starting from nothing again, there’s no continuity in how you sound. So, I mean, it was really dreadful. And by the way, if I can just say one thing, sorry now that—Jennie NashNo, I love it!Jennifer SeniorYeah. Sorry. I’m just—now you really got me going. I’m just like, yeah, I know. I’m sort of on a tear and a partial rant, which is Prozac—there came a point where, like, every single SSRI was too activating for me to sleep. But it was, of course, a problem, because being sleepless makes you depressed, so you need something to get at your depression. And SNRIs, like the Effexor’s and the Cymbalta’s, are out of the question, because those are known to be activating. So I kept vainly searching for SSRIs, and Prozac was the only one that didn’t—that wound up not being terribly activating, besides Paxil, but it, too, was somewhat deadening, and I wrote my whole book on it.Jennie NashWow!Jennifer SeniorIt’s not all metaphor.Multiple Speakers[both laughing]Jennifer SeniorIt’s not all me and no—nothing memorable, you know? I mean, it’s—it’s kind of a problem. It was—I can’t really bear to go back and look at it.Jennie NashWow.Jennie NashSo—so the feeling...Jennifer SeniorI’m really giving my book the hard sell, like it’s really a B plus in terms of its pro…—I mean, you know, it wasn’t.Jennie NashSo you—you—you recognize its happening, and what you recognize is a lack of fizzy, buzzy energy and a lack of flow. So I just have to ask now, presumably—well, there’s long COVID now, but when you don’t have—when you’re writing in your full powers, do you—is it always in a state of flow? Like, if you’re not in a state of flow, do you get up and go do something else? Like, what—how does that function in the life of a writer on a deadline?Jennifer SeniorOK. Well, am I always in a state of flow? No! I mean, flow is not—I don’t know anyone who’s good at something who just immediately can be in flow every time.Jennie NashYeah.Jennifer SeniorIt’s still magic when it happens. You know, when I was in flow almost out of the gate every day—the McIlvaine stories—like, I knew when I hit send, this thing is damn good. I knew when I hit send on a piece that was not as well read, but is like my second or third favorite story. I wrote something for The New York Times called “Happiness Wont Save You,” about a pioneer in—he wrote one of the foundational studies in positive psychology about lottery winners and paraplegics, and how lottery winners are pretty much no happier than random controls found in a phone book, and paraplegics are much less unhappy than you might think, compared to controls. It was really poorly designed. It would never withstand the scrutiny of peer review today. But anyway, this guy was, like, a very innovative thinker. His name was Philip Brickman, and in 1982 at 38 years old, he climbed—he got—went—he found his way to the roof of the tallest building in Ann Arbor and jumped, and took his own life. And I was in flow pretty much throughout writing that one too.Jennie NashWow. So the piece you’re referring to, that you referred to previous to that, is What Bobby McIlvaine Left Behind, which was a feature story in The Atlantic. It’s the one you won the—Pul…Pulitzer for? It’s now made into a book. It has, like...Jennifer SeniorAlthough all it is like, you know, the story between...Jennie NashCovers, right?Jennifer SeniorYeah. Yeah. Because—yeah, yeah.Jennie NashBut—Jennifer SeniorWhich is great, because then people can have it, rather than look at it online, which—and it goes on forever—so yeah.Jennie NashSo this is a piece—the subtitle is Grief, Conspiracy Theories, and One Family’s Search for Meaning in the Two Decades Since 9/11—and I actually pulled a couple of metaphors from that piece, because I re-read it knowing I was going to speak to you… and I mean, it was just so beautifully written. It’s—it’s so beautifully structured, everything, everything. But here’s a couple of examples for our listeners. You’re describing Bobby, who was a 26-year-old who died in 9/11, who was your brother’s college roommate.Jennifer SeniorAnd at that young adult—they—you can’t afford New York. They were living together for eight years. It was four in college, and four—Jennie NashWow.Jennifer SeniorIn New York City. They had a two-bedroom... yeah, in a cheaper part... well, to the extent that there are cheaper parts in...Jennie NashYeah.Jennifer SeniorThe way over near York Avenue, east side, yeah.Jennie NashSo you write, “When he smiled, it looked for all the world like he’d swallowed the moon.” And you wrote, “But for all Bobby’s hunger and swagger, what he mainly exuded, even during his college years, was warmth, decency, a corkscrew quirkiness.” So just that kind of language—a corkscrew quirkiness, like he’d swallowed the moon—that, it’s that the piece is full of that. So that’s interesting, that you felt in flow with this other piece you described and this one. So how would you describe—so you describe metaphors as things that just come—it just—it just happens. You’re not forcing it—you can’t force it. Do you think that’s true of whatever this ineffable thing of voice—voices—as well?Jennifer SeniorOh, that’s a good question. My voice got more distinct as I got older—it gets better. I think a lot of people’s—writers’—powers wax. Philip Roth is a great example of that. Colette? I mean, there are people whose powers really get better and better, and I’ve gotten better with more experience. But do you start with the voice? I think you do. I don’t know if you can teach someone a voice.Jennie NashSo when you say you’ve gotten better, what does that mean to you?Jennifer SeniorYeah. Um, I’m trying to think, like, do I write with more swing? Do I—just with more confidence because I’m older? Being a columnist…which is the least creative medium…Jennie NashYeah.Jennifer SeniorSeven hundred and fifty words to fit onto—I had a dedicated space in print. When David Leonhardt left, I took over the Monday spot, during COVID. So it’s really, really—but what it forces you to do is to be very—your writing becomes lean, and it becomes—and structure is everything. So this does not relate to voice, but my—I was always pretty good at structure anyway. I think if you—I think movies and radio, podcasts, are, like, great for structure. Storytelling podcasts are the best thing to—I think I unconsciously emulate them. The McIlvaine story has a three-act structure. There’s also—I think the podcast Heavyweight is sublime in that way.Jennie NashIs that Roxane Gay?Jennifer SeniorNo, no, no, no.Jennie NashOh, it’s, um—Jennifer SeniorIt’s Jonathan Goldstein.Jennie NashYes, got it. I’m going to write that down and link to that in our show notes.Jennifer SeniorIt’s... I’m trying to think of—because, you know, his is, like, narratives, and it’s—it’s got a very unusual premise. But voice, voice, voice—well, I, you know, I worked on making my metaphors better in the beginning. I worked on noticing things, you know, and I worked on—I have the—I’m the least visual person alive. I mean, this is what’s so interesting. Like, I failed to notice once that I had sat for an hour and a half with a woman who was missing an arm. I mean, I came back to the office and was talking—this is Barbara Epstein, who was a storied editor of The New York Review of Books, the story editor, along with Bob Silver. And I was talking to Mike Tomasky, who was our, like, city politic editor at the time. And I said to him, I just had this one—I knew she knew her. And he said, was it awkward? Was—you know, with her having one arm and everything? And I just stared at him and went one arm? I—I am really oblivious to stuff. And yet visual metaphors are no problem with me. Riddle me that, Batman. I don’t know why that is. But I can, like, summon them in my head, and so I worked at it for a while, when my editors were responsive to it. Now they come more easily, so that seems to maybe just be a facility. I started noticing them in other people’s writing. So Michael Ondaatje —in, I think it was In the Skin of a Lion, but maybe it was The English Patient. I’ve read, like, every book of his, like I’ve, you know— Running… was it Running in the Family? Running with the Family? I think it was Running in the—his memoir. And, I mean, doesn’t—everything. Anil’s Ghost—he— you know, that was it The Ballad of Billy the Kid? [The Collected Works of Billy the Kid] Anyway, I can go on and on. He had one metaphor talking about the evening being as serene as ink. And it was then that I realized that metaphors without effort often—and—or is that a simile? That’s a simile.Jennie NashLike—or if it’s “like” or “as,” it’s a simile.Jennifer SeniorYeah. So I’m pretty good with similes, maybe more than metaphors. But... serene as ink. I realized that what made that work is that ink is one syllable. There is something about landing on a word with one syllable that sounds like you did not work particularly hard at it. You just look at it and keep going. And I know that I made a real effort to make my metaphors do that for a while, and I still do sometimes. Anything more than that can seem labored.Jennie NashOh, but that’s so interesting. So you—you noticed in other people what worked and what you liked, and then tried to fold that into your own work.Jennifer SeniorYeah.Jennie NashSo does that mean you might noodle on—like, you have the structure of the metaphor or simile, but you might noodle on the word—Jennifer SeniorThe final word?Jennie NashThe final word.Jennifer SeniorYeah. Yeah, the actual simile, or whatever—yeah, I guess it’s a simile—yeah, sometimes. Sometimes they—like I said, they come unbidden. I think I have enough experience now—which may make my voice better—to know what’s crap. And I also, by the way, I’ll tell you what makes your voice better: just being very willing to hit Select Alt, Delete. You know, there’s more where that came from. I am a monster of self-editing. I just—I have no problem doing it. I like to do it. I like to be told when things are s**t. I think that improves your voice, because you can see it on the page.Jennie NashYeah.Jennifer SeniorAnd also, I think paying attention to other people’s writing, you know, I did more and more of that, you know, reverse engineering stuff, looking at how they did stuff as I got older, so...Jennie NashSo I was going to ask a question, which now maybe you already answered, but the question was going to be… you said that you’re—you feel like you’re getting better as a writer as you got older. And you—you said that was due to experience. And I was going to ask, is it, or is it due to getting older? You know, is there something about literally living more years that makes you better, or, you know, like, is wisdom something that you just get, or is it something you work for? But I think what I’m hearing is you’re saying you have worked to become the kind of writer who knows, you know, what you just said—you delete stuff, it comes again. But tell me if—you know, you welcome the kind of tough feedback, because you know that makes you better. You know, this sort of real effort to become better, it sounds like that’s a practice you have. Is that—is that right?Jennifer SeniorOh yeah. I mean, well, let’s do two things on that, please. I so easily lose my juju these days that, like, you’ve got to—if you can put a, you know, oh God, I’m going to use a cliché again—if you can put a pin in or bookmark that, the observation about, you know, harsh feedback. I want to come back to that. But yes, one of the things that I was going to keep—when I said that I have the confidence now, I also was going to say that I have the wisdom, but I had too many kind of competing—Jennie NashYeah. Yeah.Jennifer SeniorYou know, were running at once, and I, you know, many trains on many tracks—Jennie NashYeah, yeah.Jennifer Senior…about to leave, so…, Like, I had to sort of hop on one. But, like, the—the confidence and wisdom, yes, and also, like, I’ll tell you something: in the McIlvaine piece, it may have been the first time I did, like, a narrative nonfiction. I told a story. There was a time when I would have hid behind research on that one.Jennie NashOoh, and did you tell a story. It was the—I remember reading that piece when it first came out, and there you’re introducing, you know, this—the situation. And then there’s a moment, and it comes very quickly at the top of the piece, where you explain your relationship to the protagonist of the story. And there’s a—there’s just a moment of like, oh, we’re—we’re really in something different here. There’s really—is that feel of, this is not a reported story, this is a lived story, and that there’s so many layers of power, I mean, to the story itself, but obviously the way that you—you present it, so I know exactly what you’re talking about.Jennifer SeniorYeah, and by the way, I think writing in the first person, which I’ve been doing a lot of lately, is not something I would have done until now. Probably because I am older and I feel like I’ve earned it. I have more to say. I’ve been through more stuff. It’s not, like, with the same kind of narcissism or adolescent—like, I want to get this out, you know. It’s more searching, I think, and because I’ve seen more, and also because I’ve had these pent up stories that I’ve wanted to tell for a long time. And also I just don’t think I would have had the balls, you know.Jennie NashRight.Jennifer SeniorSo some of it is—and I think that that’s part of—you can write better in your own voice. If it’s you writing about you, you’re—there’s no better authority, you know? So your voice comes out.Jennie NashRight.Jennifer SeniorBut I’m trying to think of also—I would have hid behind research and talked about theories of grief. And when I wrote, “It’s the damnedest thing, the dead abandon you, and then you abandon the dead,” I had blurted that out loud when I was talking to, actually, not Bobby’s brother, which is the context in which I wrote it, but to Bobby’s—I said that, it’s, like, right there on the tape—to his former almost fiancée. And I was thinking about that line, that I let it stand. I didn’t actually then rush off and see if there was a body of literature that talked about the guilt that the living feel about letting go of their memories. But I would have done that at one point. I would have turned it into this... because I was too afraid to just let my own observations stand. But you get older and you’re like, you know what? I’m smart enough to just let that be mine. Like, assume...Jennie NashRight.Jennifer SeniorIt’s got to be right. But can we go back, also, before I forget?Jennie NashYeah, we’re going to go back to harsh, but—but I would just want to use your cliché, put a pin in what you said, because you’ve said so many important things— that there’s actual practice of getting better, and then there’s also wisdom of—of just owning, growing into, embracing, which are two different things, both so important. So I just wanted to highlight that you’ve gone through those two things. So yes, let’s go back to—I said harsh, and maybe I miss—can...misrepresenting what you meant.Jennifer SeniorYou may not have said that. I don’t know what you said.Jennie NashNo, I did, I did.Jennifer SeniorYou did, okay, yeah, because I just know that it was processed as a harsh—oh no, totally. Like, I was going to say to you that—so there was a part of my book, my book, eventually, I just gave one chapter to each person in my life whom I thought could, like, assess it best, and one of them, so this friend—I did it on paper. He circled three paragraphs, and he wrote, and I quote, “Is this just a shitty way of saying...?” And then I was like, thank God someone caught it, if it was shitty. Oh my God. And then—and I was totally old enough to handle it, you know, I was like 44, whatever, 43. And then, who was it? Someone else—oh, I think I gave my husband the intro, and he wrote—he circled a paragraph and just wrote, “Ugh.” Okay, Select Alt, Delete, redo. You know, like, what are you going to do with that? That’s so unambiguous. It’s like, you know—and also, I mean, when you’re younger, you argue. When you’re older, you never quarrel with Ugh. Or Is this...Jennie NashRight, you’re just like, okay, yep.Jennifer SeniorYeah. And again, you—you’ve done it enough that, you know, there’s so much more where that came from.Jennie NashYeah.Jennifer SeniorWhy cling to anything that someone just, I don’t know, had this totally allergic reaction to? Like, you know, if my husband broke out in a hive.Jennie NashYeah. So, circling back to the—the storyline of—you took this medication, you lost your ability to write in this way, you changed medications, presumably, you got it back. What did it feel like to get it back? Did you—do you remember that?Jennifer SeniorOh God, yes, it was glorious.Jennie NashReally?!Jennifer SeniorOh, you don’t feel like yourself. I think that—I mean, I think there are many professions that are intertwined with identity. They may be the more professional—I’m sorry, the more creative professions. But not always, you know. And so if your writing voice is gone, and it’s—I mean, so much of writing is an expression of your interior, if not life, then, I don’t know some kind of thought process and something that you’re working out. To have that drained out of you, for someone to just decant all the life out of your—or something to decant all the life out of your writing, it’s—it’s, I wouldn’t say it’s traumatic, that’s totally overstating it, but it’s—it’s a huge bummer. It’s, you know, it’s depressing.Jennie NashWell, the word glorious, that’s so cool. So to feel that you got back your—the you-ness of your voice was—was glorious. I mean, that’s—that’s amazing.Jennifer SeniorWhat—if I can just say, I wrote a feature, right, that then, like, I remember coming off of it, and then I wrote a feature that won the News Women’s Club of New York story for best feature that year. Like, I didn’t realize that those are kind of hard to win, and not like I won... I think I’ve won one since. But, like, that was in, like, 99 or something. I mean, like, you know, I don’t write a whole lot of things that win stuff, until recently, you know. There was, like, a real kind of blackout period where, you know, I mean, but like—which I think, it probably didn’t have to do with the quality of my writing. I mean, there was—but, I mean, you know, I wasn’t writing any of the stuff that floated to the tippy top, and, like, I think that there was some kind of explosion thereof, like, all the, again, stuff that was just desperate to come out. I think there was just this volcanic outpouring.Jennie NashSo you’re saying now you are winning things, which is indeed true. I mean, Pulitzer Prizes among them. Do you think that that has to do with this getting better? The wisdom, the practice, the glorious having of your abilities? Or, I guess what I’m asking is, like, is luck a part of—a part of all that? Is it just, it just happens? Or do you think there’s some reason that it’s happening? You feel that your writing is that powerful now?Jennifer SeniorWell, luck is definitely a part of it, because The Atlantic is the greatest place to showcase your feature writing. It gets so much attention, even though I think fewer people probably read that piece about Bobby McIlvaine than would have read any of my columns on any given day. The kind of attention was just so different. And it makes sense in a funny way, because it was 13,600 words or something. I mean, it was so long, and columns are 750 words. But, like, I think that I just lucked out in terms of the showcase. So that’s definitely a part of it. And The Atlantic has the machinery to, you know, and all these dedicated, wonderful publicity people who will make it possible for people to read it, blah, blah, blah. So there’s that. If you’re older, you know everyone in the business, so you have people amplifying your work, they’re suddenly reading it and saying, hey, everybody read it. It was before Twitter turned to garbage. Media was still a way to amplify it. It’s much harder now, so passing things along through social media has become a real problem. But at that moment, it was not—Jennie NashYeah.Jennifer SeniorSo that was totally luck. Also, I wonder if it was because I was suddenly writing something from in the first person, and my voice was just better that way. And I wouldn’t have had, like, the courage, you know?Jennie NashYeah.Jennifer SeniorAnd also, you’re a book critic, which is what I was at The Times. And you certainly are not writing from the first person. And as a columnist, you’re not either.Jennie NashYeah.Jennifer SeniorSo, you know, those are very kind of constricted forms, and they’re also not—there are certainly critics who win Pulitzers. I don’t think I was good enough at it. I was good, but it was not good enough. I could name off the top of my head, like, so many critics who were—who are—who haven’t even won anything yet. Like Dwight Garner really deserves one. Why has he not won a Pulitzer? He’s, I think, the best writer—him and Sophie Gilbert, who keeps coming close. I don’t get it, like, what the hell?Jennie NashDo you—as a—as a reader of other people’s work, I know you—you mentioned Michael Ondaatje that you’d studied—study him. But do you just recognize when somebody else is on their game? Like, do you recognize the voice or the gloriousness of somebody else’s work? Can you just be like, yeah, that...?Jennifer SeniorWell, Philip Roth, sentence for sentence. Martin Amis, even more so—I cannot get over the originality of each of his sentences and the wide vocabulary from which he recruits his words, and, like, maybe some of that is just being English. I think they just get better, kind of more comprehensive. They read more comprehensively. And I always tell people, if they want to improve their voice, they should read the Victorians, like that [unintelligible]. His also facility with metaphor, I don’t think, is without equal. The thing is, I can’t stand his fiction. I just find it repellent. But his criticism is bangers and his memoirs are great, so I love them.Jennie NashYeah.Jennifer SeniorSo I really—I read him very attentively, trying to think of, like, other people whose kind of...Jennie NashI guess I was—I was getting at more... like, genius recognizes genius, that con... that concept, like, when you know you can do this and write in this way from time to time anyway, you can pull it off.Jennifer SeniorYeah, genius as in—I wouldn’t—we can’t go there.Jennie NashWell, that’s the—that’s the cliché, right? But, like...Jennifer SeniorOh no, I know, I know. Game—game, game recognizes game.Jennie NashGame recognizes game is a better way of saying it. Like, do you see—that’s actually what the phrase is. I don’t know where I came up with genius, but...Jennifer SeniorNo, it’s fine. You can stick anything in that template, you know—evil recognizes evil, I mean, you know, it’s like a...Jennie NashYeah. Do you see it? Do you see it? Like, you can see it in other people?Jennifer SeniorSure. Oh yeah, I see it.Jennie NashYeah.Jennifer SeniorI mean, you’re just talking about among my contemporaries, or just as it...Jennie NashJust like anything, like when you pick up a book or you read an article or even listen to a storytelling pack podcast, that sense of being in the hands of somebody who’s on it.Jennifer SeniorYeah, I think that Jonathan Goldstein—I mean, I think that the—the Heavyweight Podcast, for sure, is something—and more than that, it’s—it’s storytelling structure, it’s just that—I think that anybody who’s a master at structure would just look at that show and be like, yeah, that show nails it each and every time.Jennie NashI’ve not listened, but I feel like I should end our time together. I would talk to you forever about this, but I always like to leave our listeners with something specific to reflect or practice or do. And is there anything related to metaphor or practicing, finding your voice, owning your voice, that you would suggest for—for folks? You’ve already suggested a lot.Jennifer SeniorRead the Victorians.Jennie NashAwesome. Any particular one that you would say start with?Jennifer SeniorYeah, you know what? I find Dickens rough sledding. I like his, you know, dear friend Wilkie Collins. I think No Name is one of the greatest books ever. I would read No Name.Jennie NashAmazing. And I will add, go read Jennifer’s work. We’ll link to a bunch of it in the show notes. Study her and—and watch what she does and learn what she does—that there it is, a master at work, and that’s what I would suggest. So thank you for joining us and having this amazing discussion.Jennifer SeniorThis has been super fun.Jennie NashAnd for our listeners, until next time, stop playing small and write like it matters.NarratorThe Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

In this Write Big session, Jenny Nash shares a story from her business mastermind about what it looks like to “play big.” From asking for help to boldly joining the conversation, Jenny shows how these small but brave moves apply directly to the writing life—and why writers need to see themselves as entrepreneurs. A quick dose of inspiration to stop playing small and write like it matters!SPONSORSHIP MESSAGEAre you staring down a holiday shopping list with a haunted look in your eyes? My great big guide to holiday under-the-radar book-giving perfection can help. Maybe you think not everyone in your life wants a book, but honestly, they are just wrong. I’ve got a book on my list for the therapy-speak-loving teen who’s glued to TikTok, a book for your mom whose book club just forced her to read Emily Henry and just wants a protagonist with a little seasoning. One for your dad, who thinks TV hasn’t been the same since The X-Files. And a few for your book-loving bestie, who’s read everything already, and all you have to do to get the list to drop right into your phone for your shopping pleasure is join my newsletter, Hashtag AmReading, at kjda.substack.com—link in the show notes and pretty much anywhere where you can find me, which is easy.EPISODE TRANSCRIPTJennie NashHi, I’m Jennie Nash, and you’re listening to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast. This is a Write Big Session where I’m bringing you short episodes about the mindset shifts that help you stop playing small and write like it matters. Today I want to share with you a specific example of what writing big could look like for you. Something happened to me in my business mastermind that was so cool. This is a mastermind that meets every week, and its business people who are running businesses just like mine. You submit questions about challenges you’re facing in your business, or decisions you have, or mindset shifts you need to make, and we get coached. And there’s also a lot of activity in the chat. Oftentimes, people are chiming in with things that they’ve tried or opinions or cheering people on or lifting people up. It’s a very engaged and active chat.This is actually my second year in the mastermind, and I happen to be one of the people that a lot of other people look up to. This morning, in the middle of a conversation, somebody admitted that they had been studying my funnel and stalking my offers to see how I was doing what I was doing and to try to emulate it. She then said something along the lines of how she was obsessed with what I was doing and wanted to know how I made it happen. So this, to me, is a moment of playing big, because she’s new to the mastermind, and she’s looking up to me, and yet she was willing to make that comment and engage with me in that way, and she didn’t ask for anything specifically. She just commented that she admired what I was doing and was studying what I was doing. And so it gave me the perfect opportunity to say, would you like to get together offline — meaning, in a separate call from the mastermind some other day — and I’ll show you inside my funnel, and I’ll show you what I’m doing. I’m happy to help show you the architecture of the whole thing. And she, of course, was thrilled and accepted. And in my mind, even as she was doing it, I thought, this is exactly the way that you ask for help.She didn’t come after me and say, will you teach me all your tricks? She didn’t even assume that I would answer any question in particular at all. She just made a comment and engaged with me in a very kind and thoughtful way and allowed me to make that offer. So I thought that was really cool. But then a second thing happened that amplified that moment, and I thought that was really cool too, which is that a third person saw this chat going on between us and jumped into our thread there and said, I would really like to join that call if it’s okay with the two of you. And again, this was such a bold move. So many of us would think, oh, I don’t want to horn in on their thing, or oh, maybe that’s piling on too much, or oh, I shouldn’t take up that much space, or be that forward, or whatever we might tell ourselves. And this person just very kindly— think she actually used the phrase; can I crash your party?—so she did it with a sense of humor and self-awareness.And again, it allowed me and this other woman to say, of course, that would be amazing, no problem, let’s do it. And so the three of us made a plan to get together and do this work separately. Now it’s not just totally altruistic on my part. I love business models, and I love learning from other business people, so getting to see what they’re doing and inside their structures and thought processes is really useful for me as well. So you may be sitting here thinking, what on earth does this have to do with writing? And it has everything to do with writing, because every single one of us who are writing things are also entrepreneurs. And this term gets thrown around a lot — the author entrepreneur — or, you know, you’re starting a business, or whatever the words that people use are, but I don’t think writers take it seriously enough.This idea that writing a book is launching a business—you are making a product, and you want people to buy that product. And I think more writers need to think of it like that, because nobody would launch a business with a product and not expect to invest in it and not expect to spend a lot of time, effort, energy, and money to bring that product to market. So often, writers think all we have to do is write the book, and our work here is done. We think that marketing is not our job, sales is not our job, thinking about the business is not our job, but it absolutely is our job. You absolutely have to learn how to think like an entrepreneur.And so the lesson here for writers is, make sure that you’re part of communities where people are doing the work that you want to be doing around your book. That could be people who are doing things on TikTok or YouTube or Instagram or have really cool newsletters on Substack that you follow, but you want to get into communities where people are taking action and making moves, so that you can study what they’re doing, follow what they’re doing, maybe engage with them if there’s a particular situation in which that engagement is welcome, and then you need to put yourself out there and ask for help and ask for coaching and ask for guidance.The thing about the business mastermind that I’m in is that it’s very expensive. People have committed a lot of money to it, and I think when people commit money, the energy follows. So people in this group are very engaged. They show up for the calls all the time. It is not a random group of strangers. And so there’s a sense inside the container that we’re all trying to do the same thing—we’re all trying to reach the same levels of success, we are all kind of in it together—and that’s a huge part of the reason why I was able to make this offer to these other people, because they’re not just random strangers coming at me from social media. I get those kinds of requests all day long. People who want to pick my brain—they literally say that—people who want answers to questions that really they shouldn’t ask, who make audacious asks about things. This is different because we’re all in a container together.So if you’re thinking, I want that kind of mentorship, I want that kind of camaraderie, I want that kind of engagement so that when my book comes out, I will have a plan and a strategy and support in place to get it out into readers’ hands. And it may be that you have to find a community to invest in, or it may be that you have to invest your time in a way that you haven’t yet been investing—but playing big means putting yourself in the right spaces where you can ask these kinds of questions, make these kinds of connections with people, and ask for help. There were so many playing big moves in what went on this morning, and I just loved seeing it, and I loved being part of it, and I wanted to share that all with you in hopes that it might be inspiring. Until next time, stop playing small and write like it matters.NarratorThe Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Hi all! In honor of Thanksgiving, we decided to share what we’re doing to get MORE of what we’re grateful for in our writing lives—as in, try not just to give a nod to gratitude but actually increase the things we do to feel it. Enjoy! Are you staring down a holiday shopping list with a haunted look in your eyes? My great big guide to holiday under-the-radar book-giving perfection can help. Maybe you think not everyone in your life wants a book, but honestly, they are just wrong. I’ve got a book on my list for the therapy-speak-loving teen who’s glued to TikTok, a book for your mom whose book club just forced her to read Emily Henry and just wants a protagonist with a little seasoning. One for your dad, who thinks TV hasn’t been the same since The X-Files. And a few for your book-loving bestie, who’s read everything already, and all you have to do to get the list to drop right into your phone for your shopping pleasure is join my newsletter, Hashtag AmReading, at kjda.substack.com—link in the show notes and pretty much anywhere where you can find me, which is easy.EPISODE TRANSCRIPTMultiple SpeakersIs it recording? Now it’s recording, yay. Go ahead. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone. I don’t remember what I’m supposed to be doing. All right, let’s start over. Awkward pause. I’m going to rustle some papers. Okay, now—one, two, three.KJ Dell’AntoniaHey kids, it’s KJ, and this is the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast, the place where we help you play big in your writing life, love the process, and finish what matters.Jess LaheyI’m Jess Lahey. I am the author of The Gift of Failure and The Addiction Inoculation, and you can find my work at The New York Times and The Washington Post and The Atlantic.Sarina BowenAnd I’m Sarina Bowen. My newest novel is called Thrown for a Loop, and you can find it at bookstores everywhere.Jennie NashAnd I’m Jennie Nash. I’m the founder and CEO of Author Accelerator, a company on a mission to lead the emerging book coaching industry. And I’m the author of the Blueprint books that help you get your book out of your head and onto your page. And today, the four of us have gathered to talk about gratitude. It’s the week of Thanksgiving, and we’ve been thinking about the things that we’re grateful for in our writing life, and how we want to celebrate that and amplify that. So we thought we’d share that all with you today. KJ, do you want to start by talking about what you’re grateful for?KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, I actually managed to give this some thoughts. Since we did, we did talk about it. And I should say we kind of got the idea from Laura Vanderkam’s newsletter, which is really great, and you should subscribe. She was just talking about how, you know, it’s one thing to be grateful for things like, “Whoo, I’m grateful that I live in such a beautiful place,” but it’s another thing to say, “And because I’m grateful that I live in such a beautiful place, this week I will make a point of going for a walk, you know, tonight with my dog, in a place that I love,” or something along that. Her point was: come up with something and then actually do something to amplify that for yourself. So you’re not just sitting around, you know, writing a gratitude journal. You’re actually trying to do something about it. So having announced that I am totally prepared for this—I’m not really, but I kind of am. Okay. So one of the things that I am grateful for this year, a little weirdly, is AI, and it is not for the reasons anyone might think. I’m primarily grateful—I’m grateful that the spurt of AI in everything that I read, from Goodreads book reviews to things in my inbox to, I’m sorry, actual articles in actual newspapers… it’s become so recognizable. The stuff that is written, the pattern, the three examples, the particular words that are invariably used. Oh, somebody threw one out the other night—oh, in the real estate world, if it says something is “nestled between two things,” that’s AI. Anyway, that made me realize that the last thing I want is something else to do any of this for me. I just don’t. I just, you know, sometimes you sit around going, “Oh, somebody just write this book for me—” you know what? No. No. Because I don’t want my book to be nestled between a rock and a hard place or whatever. So, so no. So what I’m doing to sort of bring that home for myself is I’m actually trying to be more present, in particular within the AmWriting—the AmWriting universe. So I’ve been doing something that I’m calling Hashtag AmWriting ‘Almost’ Every Day. It’s really nowhere close to every day. Don’t worry about getting your inbox full. But I am—you know, that’s actually me. If I have time and something to say, or something to whine, or some write-alongs to share, or an idea, then I’m going to put that out there for y’all. And hopefully you’re going to comment back, and you probably won’t bother to use AI to do that, because that would be really silly. So that’s a thing I’m doing, and a thing that I’m grateful that I’ve suddenly come to the realization of.Jess LaheyWhat’s funny, KJ, is that I can absolutely tell when you’re really enjoying writing, because it—it just comes through, as it does with most people. But it’s been… your newsletters have been really fun, and you’re really in it. And I love reading them. I absolutely love reading them.Jennie NashIt gets a little sassy.KJ Dell’AntoniaThanks!Jess LaheyShe does. She does get a little sassy.Jennie NashI love it.Jess LaheyYep, the Shirley Jackson comes out in her, and it’s really fun. I like that a lot.Jennie NashJess, do you want to go next?Jess LaheyYeah. Sure. So newsletters have come to mean a lot to me. I have a lot of drafts sitting there, some of which I don’t think—I may never publish. But I’m really, really grateful that writing has, for my entire life, been the way that I process what I’m thinking about. I do it a lot by talking, but when I’m alone in the woods, like I am right now in Vermont, writing is how I figure things out, and I’m so grateful for that, because, you know, as I wrote about in my newsletter, I’m dealing with breast cancer, and I’m about to have surgery, and some of that stuff is really, really scary. And how I think about it, and how I manage it, is through writing about it. And I’m just—I’ve never been so grateful to have, even if it never goes out into the world, a place to write about that stuff. And, and, yeah, I’m so grateful for the words. Absolutely.Jennie NashThat’s so beautiful, that in the scariest, most difficult time, it’s the most natural thing that you turn to.Jess LaheyYeah, I think there are some people who pour themselves out in watercolors, or some people—whatever. The words, man, they’re the best.Jennie NashVery cool. Sarina, what about you?Sarina BowenYeah, well, as always, my gratitude runs toward the granular and the practical. I guess I can’t ever get away from that. So I am grateful to deadlines. Last month, I had a really difficult deadline. I had to scramble and set everything else aside and keep myself from panicking. And I did it. I actually—I turned it in, and then I immediately went on a book tour for a different book. So that was a difficult experience and a difficult month, and I’m not used to quite so much deadline pressure. But the wonderful thing is, is that I have these deadlines because of the work that I have placed with publishers, and I wouldn’t want to change a single thing about that. So even if I need to get a little better about my timing, I recognize that—even in the darkest day—that it’s a gift to have this problem. And then I’m also grateful for coffee shops, because that has been a place for me to work this year. And I never did this before. I was one of those people who had to be at home, in a room all by myself, in the quiet, writing. And suddenly that became really difficult for me. The quiet was too much quiet. There was too much doom scroll, there was too much self-reflection. And it really started the day after the election, actually. Like, I sort of ordered KJ to meet me out at a coffee shop because I needed to be where other people were. And it was really grounding—like, there we were, and the barista is a familiar face, and everything was fine inside that shop, you know, which was, in itself, a little bubble of privilege. But, but just being out in the world, seeing the rest of the world keep chugging, has really focused me. And I’ve spent a lot of time in a lot of different coffee shop and library settings in the intervening couple of months—and, well, almost a year now—and it’s felt fantastic. So I am excited that there are places where I’m allowed to go pay way too much for a cup of coffee and then sit there for two hours, and I will continue to do it.Jess LaheyCan I add a layer to the Sarina—to the Sarina stuff? Because I got to go to, as some of the other people talking today did, got to go to one of Sarina’s events. And, you know, we love Sarina, and we just rave about Sarina, and I think she’s a genius, and I think her writing is wonderful. But I was in a room of people who knew her work. Like, at one point, someone asked about whether or not she was going to be writing more in, like, The Company Series, which is one of the series she started to write. And there are a couple books—in that one. And then when she’s like, “Oh, I don’t—I think the time for that is over,” and people were like, “Awww,” and they were sad, and they knew characters really well. There was a die-hard fan of one of her books—I think it was Stay. And I just—I’m so grateful to be able to go to those events and see that other people love Sarina as much and respect Sarina’s work as much as I do. And my whole family was there. So my kid, who’s been hearing about, you know, my friend who wrote—writes “kiss me” books, he was like, “Man, people are into her books.” And I’m like, “Yeah, I told you. I’ve been trying to tell you.” And it was great. It was really fun to see people that into it.Sarina BowenWell, the thing is that romance readers really are special. I’m not saying there aren’t—there aren’t fandoms in other genres as well. But it’s something about a romance novel involves characters that aren’t afraid to say how they feel, and that is how romance readers are about the books. They are not afraid to say what they feel, and they are there for all the feelings in the first place. And it is really a great spot to be. So for every writer who ever looked down at the romance section of the bookstore, I got news for you. It’s really nice over there.Jess LaheyIt’s great. The people were so great.Jennie NashAnd we have gratitude for the romance—the romance readers too.Jess LaheyYeah.Jennie NashI love all of your—your gratitude’s. Mine is—I guess I would say that I am grateful for having the identity of a writer as a thing that I take with me wherever I go. And what I mean by that is I have been traveling to see family, and there were airplane troubles, lots of different airplane troubles, actually, on this particular trip, and lots of delays, overnight delays, sitting in airports for long periods of time, all of that, and I am never sad about those things. I’m almost never at a total loss. Like, you tell me that I have to spend six hours at the San Francisco airport, and I’m fine, because I can fill the time—not just, not just fill it like, “Oh, I can get through this,” but I can actually have really productive, useful, awesome time for six hours in the San Francisco airport. And if I have to spend a night at a terrible airport hotel, and, you know, just all the things—and I was so grateful when I thought about it in that way, that here’s a thing that I can take with me wherever I go, that all I need is something to write on. Could be my phone. It could be a piece of airport hotel notepad and paper. It could even be a torn-out page of a magazine that I bought at the airport. And I—I can be somebody. I can be somebody doing something that I find interesting and good and useful. And I just am so grateful for that. What an amazing thing to be. And obviously holiday travel is a special kind of thing, but just the thought that—that that comes with me, no matter where I go or what I do or what happens in my life—I have that, and I’m very grateful for that. So I don’t know, KJ, in terms of how am I going to bring that forward or exercise it or do it? I guess—I guess I’ve got to hope for smoother travels.KJ Dell’AntoniaYou should just get stuck in more airports, but you don’t want to get stuck in more airports? I feel like that should be your goal now.Jennie NashI guess if you take it to a very granular, practical level, like Sarina does—always have a notebook with you, man. That’s what I got to say, and a working writing implement. It saves the day.Jess LaheyAnd then you text the word “sticker” to the rest of us, and we know, “Oh, man, those travel stickers—those are worth double stickers.” We always say that travel stickers are double stickers.Jennie NashIt’s so true. It’s so true. Well, we just wanted to pop in here today to share this gratitude episode with you all and to give you some things to think about, about your writing life and your writing practice. And we hope that everyone is having a day filled with gratitude. KJ, do you want to say other things?KJ Dell’AntoniaI wanted to say that I think we’re all grateful for the way this community is slowly but steadily growing. I’ve been doing Write-Alongs with a bunch of people lately. We’ve been seeing people in the actual Substack chat, which, if you…Jess LaheyThe chat is fun.KJ Dell’AntoniaUse Substack chat, that’s great. And you know—you know what it is, and if you don’t, that’s fine. You can totally hit the same results by talking to us in the comments, which is the same as comments on anything. I just—I just really like sort of seeing the same people and faces pop up over and over again, and feeling the same kind of “less alone” about this that I used to feel back in the early days of blogging. I don’t know about the rest of you, but I have pretty much, you know—I’ll put a thing on Instagram, and then I’m out of there because, again, it’s—there’s, there’s so much slop now. I’m not really doing a lot of other things. But I am here, and there are other people here, and I think that’s so fun.Jennie NashIt’s really fun. And we will continue to be here with—with lots of offerings, from Nerd Corner episodes to Write Big episodes to KJ Writing Along episodes, and we’re in the chat to help and answer questions, and we have other things up our sleeves too. So keep tuning in.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah. All right.Jess LaheyAll right, everyone until next time around, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.NarratorThe Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Jenny Nash builds on her conversation with Mary Laura Philpott to highlight a crucial truth: writing for yourself and writing for readers are two very different things—and they need to happen at the same time. Start from passion, but bring market intention in early, because it shapes everything from structure to genre to how your book will sell. Define your goals up front, so you’re not left frustrated later.Transcript Below!SPONSORSHIP MESSAGEHey, it’s Jennie Nash, and I wanted to remind you that while you’re shopping all the sales this week, think about investing in your writing. Author Accelerator book coaches are offering a Black Friday special for writers who are ready to move forward on their books. It’s called the Mini Blueprint Strategy Session, and you get a focused one-on-one experience that helps you see what’s working in your manuscript and what to do next. Eighty-six of our certified book coaches are offering this special for a limited time. You can go to authoraccelerator.com/black-friday to check it out.EPISODE TRANSCRIPTHi, I’m Jennie Nash and you’re listening to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast. This is a Write Big Session—a short episode about the mindset shifts that help you stop playing small and write like it matters.Today I wanted to do a second episode about some of the things that Mary Laura Philpott shared in our last episode. I thought that conversation was just rich with incredible meaning, and something she said has really stuck with me—that I want to amplify here today.And it’s this idea about the difference between what you want to write for your own self—and writing for readers in the marketplace. Mary Laura articulated so well that these are two really separate parts of the process. You have to write what you want to write from your heart. You have to bring your heart and your soul to your work—because first of all, writing a book is a really long undertaking. You’re going to spend a lot of time with this story or this content and material, and you want to make sure that you’re doing it from love.You want to make sure that you’re doing it from some deep creative well within yourself—and tapping into that place that is rich and full and makes you feel alive. That’s the only book that’s worth writing, and many people do that kind of writing and do that kind of work—and don’t ever want to cross over to that other place where now they’re doing the work of making that ready and accessible for a reader.And Mary Laura talked about how that second shift in the book-writing process is so weighty for her—and it is for everyone. The difference between writing something for your own self and writing something that bubbles up and springs up from inside you, and writing something with the intention that it’s going to be bought and sold by strangers—and read by people that you don’t know—that’s what strangers are, I guess—the difference between those two things is really huge. And I think too many writers make the mistake of doing the first part and thinking that’s enough--that they don’t have to think about, well, what does my reader want? Where does this book fit on the shelf in a bookstore? How is this going to be bought and sold?What is this book’s relationship to the marketplace? They don’t make that leap into that second way of thinking—and then they get frustrated when the marketplace rejects their work. It’s the work of their heart. It’s the work of their soul. They brought their whole being to the page—but they didn’t do that second part.But here’s the key about that second part—It doesn’t usually come after. It’s not chronological. You don’t write the thing and then think about the marketplace. Sometimes that happens—but it’s actually really rare.You have to do those two parts of the work at the same time—they have to overlap. You start a project out of the love and the passion and the yearning and the desire, but the intention that it’s going to be for the marketplace needs to come pretty soon thereafter, because it’s going to impact your structure.It’s going to impact your genre. If you’re writing fiction, it’s going to impact the length of what you write. It’s going to impact all kinds of decisions that you make about that book, and if you leave those decisions until after you’ve written a draft, you’re likely going to be very disappointed.So what this is really about is understanding your intention for the work as soon as you can. So again, you might start with the love and the desire and the yearning and the passion, but once you start thinking… I would like for this to be read, I would like for this to be in the marketplace. My intention and ambition is for it to be read. Then you need to stop and start asking yourself some of these core questions about: how is it going to be read, how is it going to be in the marketplace? My Blueprint books were designed for this exact thing. They offer a 14-step method of inquiry that helps you think about these core questions at the beginning of a project before you write too far.This isn’t an advertisement for my Blueprint books. I think they’re great, but there’s a lot of other ways to get this work done as well. There’s some other methods—there’s other systems and processes. You might have a framework for doing it as well, but it’s something that we really need to think about—is these two different pieces of the process. So my reflection for today is to go back and listen to that episode with Mary Laura Philpott and listen for the words that she says around this, because they’re so good—and I think she just pinned it down so well—and I just want you to spend some time reflecting on these two phases of the process and these two parts of making a book that readers are going to love.Until next time, stop playing small and write like it matters.The Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

In this #amwriting podcast Write Big session, Jennie Nash talks with author Mary Laura Philpott about the surprising choice she made after her acclaimed book Bomb Shelter—to stop writing on purpose. Mary Laura shares how, after pouring everything into that project, her gut told her she didn’t need to rush into another, despite the pressure of “what’s next?” from the industry and readers. This conversation reframes writing big not as chasing ambition, but as honoring your gut and giving your whole heart to whatever season you’re in—even if that means not writing at all.TRANSCRIPT BELOW!THINGS MENTIONED IN THIS PODCAST:* Mary Laura Philpott’s website* Bomb Shelter* The New York Times ReviewSPONSORSHIP MESSAGEHey, it’s Jenny Nash, and if you’ve been writing a new book through the month of November and wondering if it’s any good, this might be the perfect time to work with an Author Accelerator certified book coach to get a professional gut check. Eighty-six of our certified coaches are offering a Black Friday special. For just $299, you get a mini blueprint strategy session, which includes a one-on-one call, some feedback on your pages, and the kind of insight and inspiration you need to write forward with confidence. Visit https://www.authoraccelerator.com/black-friday to find the book coach who’s a perfect fit for you.EPISODE TRANSCRIPTJennie NashHi, I’m Jennie Nash, and you’re listening to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast. This is a Write Big Session, where I’m bringing you short episodes about the mindset shifts that help you stop playing small and write like it matters. Today, I’m talking to Mary Laura Philpott about the idea of trusting your gut. This is a critical component to writing big, and I asked Mary Laura to come speak to us because a very interesting thing happened to her after the publication of her second book, Bomb Shelter: Love, Time, and Other Explosives. This book is so good. It’s a book about being a parent and a daughter and a spouse and a person in the world. And what happened was that she stopped writing—on purpose. Her gut told her, “I’m done now.” And it struck me that if we could understand what makes a successful writer choose not to write; maybe we could understand better what makes us each choose to write big. So welcome, Mary Laura.Mary Laura PhilpottHello, friend. Thanks for having me.Jennie NashAh, I’m so excited to have this conversation. I’ve been wanting to have it for a very long time.Mary Laura PhilpottOh, good.Jennie NashSo thanks for joining us. This is maybe your second, third, fourth time on the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast—you’re a fan favorite. So welcome back. To set this conversation up, I’m going to read a little snippet from The New York Times review of Bomb Shelter, which was written by Judith Warner, and in which she called your book a “master work.” I’m going to read the end of her review, because it really sets up this question that we’re going to be talking about.So she writes: “I want to say something negative about this book. To be this positive is, I fear, to sound like a nitwit. So to nitpick—there’s some unevenness to the quality of the sentences in the final chapter—but there’s no fun in pointing that out. Philpott already knows. I’m telling this story now in present tense. She writes, ‘I’m still in it, not yet able to shape it from the future’s perspective. The story is still being written, and that’s all right. The only problem is having to wait to read what comes next.’”So—you wrote this book, which was your second book…Mary Laura PhilpottSecond book of this type—yes, kind of second, second memoir.Jennie NashSecond book of this type. And you get this beyond rave review in The New York Times by this luminary reviewer, in which she says, “I can’t wait to see what you write next.” And here we sit some years later, in which the answer is—there is nothing next. So can you talk about that? Can you talk about how you—first of all, what that feels like?Mary Laura PhilpottYeah, it’s—I mean, you know this feeling of before a book is even on shelves, people are already asking, “So what’s next? Like, what are you working on?” You know? And then you go on tour, and every question everywhere is, “So what are you working on now?” There’s this relentless, kind of—this churning wheel of productivity behind it all. And so I’m used to that, and I was used to that feeling of, okay, the book is out, people are talking about it, but I need to be working on something next, because that’s always been how it is. But I was tired. That was a really—I love that review so much, and I love the way this book was received—but it was a really emotional book to write, and it was a really emotional book to tour with and go out and talk about for several weeks on end. And so when I came back home, I was like, you know, I get to decide how this little hamster wheel of productivity goes—and I have decided I need a break, and I’m going to focus on, you know—I had, like, one or two years left with my kids at home before they left the nest. I was like, I’m just going to be at home. I’m going to focus inward. I’m just going to be kind of living life on my own terms. And I did that for about a year—and then another year—and now it’s been... let’s see... here we are in 2025... It’s been three years since that book came out. I have not written another book, and I have never been so calm about not being in the middle of writing another book. It just feels like I don’t have something I urgently need to say.Jennie NashYeah.Mary Laura PhilpottAnd I also feel—there’s something rebellious in the beginning about saying, “I’m not going to do it.” But once the rebellion kind of burns off and you realize, actually, I don’t owe anyone anything—like, I’m not under contract for another book. I had the sort of miraculous timing of my editor for Bomb Shelter and for I Miss You When I Blink retiring right after Bomb Shelter came out, so I don’t even have an editor breathing down my neck going, “Come on, what’s your next thing?” So I’ve been experimenting with saying I’m retired. When people ask me, like, “What are you working on?” I say, “I might be retired. I don’t know if I am. It might be temporary. It might be—this might be like Ross and Rachel: are we on a break, or are we broken up? I don’t know.” But I am so calm and happy with the decision not to be getting up every day and sitting at my desk. It’s like a cord has been cut in me—and I don’t feel any guilt about it.Jennie NashSo you said you feel that you don’t have anything to say. When you started these books and your other books and projects, did you feel that?Mary Laura PhilpottAlways! Yes. Like, I—for myself and for other people—like, I need to get this on paper. There’s that therapeutic part of writing: I need to get this on paper and organize it so that I can understand what it is I think. That’s not enough of a reason to go through the misery of publishing a book, but it’s something. And then there’s the other part—where you, or for me, where once I figure out what it is that I’m thinking as I’m putting it on paper, I realize there are other people who may feel this way, and translating it into words is a gift. And it’s something that I want to be able to do for readers, and I want to enter into that two-way conversation with my words and my readers. And it’s not that I don’t have anything interesting to talk about right now—it’s just that I don’t have anything keeping me up at night, begging to be translated and, therefore, you know, urging me to the page. I’ve started and stopped little—not books, but like other little projects here and there—where I’m like, oh, maybe I want to play around with this idea. And then I put them down, and I just feel... it’s honestly the first time in my life I have felt no guilt about not working on the thing that everyone thinks I should be working on. And it’s so weird because other people seem to have really strong feelings about it.Jennie NashI was going to say, what are people’s reactions when you say, “I might be retired”?Mary Laura PhilpottThe other day—okay, so I’m going to tell you about this event I went to the other day. It was a book event for a woman who we all know, who’s pretty well known, and this is her—I don’t know—fourth or fifth or sixth book and it’s very much anticipated by its readers. And she’s exactly my age—she’s 51—and when I went to this event, I ran into a lot of other book people who I know, and of course, the first question everyone asks: “What are you working on?” So I decided to test out my line, and I would say, “I think I might be retired.” The vehemence with which people go, “No, you’re not! Like, shut up!”—I got told “Shut up” so many times. Like, what? Why? Why do people have this strong reaction? But then—and then, you know, I’m such a people pleaser that if enough people say, “Shut up. No, you’re not,” I start to question myself. I’m like, maybe I should try? I don’t know. I don’t want to disappoint everybody. But then we sat down for the discussion part of this event, and someone in the audience asked this fellow writer, “Where do you want to be in ten years? Look ahead ten years and tell us what you see.” And she said, “In ten years, I will be in my early sixties, and I think by then I’d like to hang it up and live life just for me.” And I felt so viscerally and instantly—oh, no, I do not want to wait ten years. I wanted to yell out, “You don’t have to wait till then!” But, you know, to each her own—and she may have ten years more of wanting to be out and about and hustling and doing this.Jennie NashYeah, yeah. So it sounds like you wouldn’t characterize what you’re feeling as burnout. It’s not—it’s not like, “Oh, I burned out, and I’ll get back to it someday.” It feels really as if you arrived at a different place.Mary Laura PhilpottIt feels like—yes, it feels more like closure than like burnout. And that has changed. That feeling has changed over the last two to three years. In the beginning, it did feel like burnout—like, when I came home from that book tour, I was wrung out. I mean, I was thrilled, it was—it was amazing—but I was tired. And I thought—I remember you and I talking about this and saying, “You know what? I’ve just—I left it all on the field. I’m exhausted, and I need to take a year-long nap.” And then, over time, it became more of an “Okay, I’m not burned out. I actually feel fine. I’m just taking a break.” And I’ve talked to—you and I have a good friend in common, Laura Vanderkam, who writes a lot about productivity, and she and I had a conversation once where I was like, “I think what this is, is a break. Just—I’m going to take a pause, and I’ll decide when I’m done pausing. When I’m done pausing.” And that may be what it is. I do tend to live life kind of cyclically, so I might cycle back into “Now I want to do this,” or “Now I’ve written that.” But right now it feels like this really peaceful closure. And even if I do write something again—which, come on, I mean, I probably will at some point—the part that feels closed is the hustle part. The part that—a lot of us don’t actually really enjoy that much—which is not the writing of the book or the, you know, nice conversations with the readers, but the part where it’s like, okay, you’ve got to put together this tour schedule, and you’ve got to answer all these questions for these promotional essays, and—and now you’ve got to—you know, this promotional machine that—“Go get your photo taken again.” I’m so sick of my face...Multiple Speakers[Both laughing]Jennie NashRight?! It’s the performing aspect of being a writer.Mary Laura PhilpottYeah.Jennie NashDid—does any of this have to do with the fact that Bomb Shelter...? I know we talked about it at one point—that you felt, while you were writing it, that this—that it was good. Like, you knew that your vision was matching the execution. And then the world reflected back to you that yes, it is good—you did do that, and at a really high level. Particularly that one. There were a lot of reviews like that, but that sort of was the shining—you know, shining star. Was there a—do you think that the fact that you wrote the book—you know, we’re always trying to write the book that we envision, and we don’t always get there—and it feels like you got there. Does that have to do with this feeling, do you think?Mary Laura PhilpottMaybe—because there—I mean, you’re right, there is almost always a gap between—before we write the thing—this wonderful, amorphous idea in our head where it’s like, “This is just a shining galaxy of thoughts,” and then you get it on paper, and its like, “Oops, I killed it. I flattened it.” And there’s always this gap between the two. And with Bomb Shelter, I really did—it has the smallest possible gap of anything I’ve ever written. And so maybe, you know, maybe that is part of it—that I feel like, what else am I waiting for? Like, what else could I want to do? If you get down to the pure reason of why we do this and what draws you to the page—and also the part of my personality that is, for better or for worse, kind of Type A and achievement-driven—this is... maybe I got to that point where I was like, well, I got the A-plus-plus-plus. What else could I try to get? I don’t think that’s entirely it, because it’s not the whole reason that I write. I don’t think it’s like, “I got the A-plus-plus-plus, now there’s nothing left to say.” When there’s something to say, I’ll say it. But I do—I think you’re right that that’s part of it.Jennie NashAnd the idea of writing for other people—that there’s the writing, and then there’s the connecting with other people, knowing that you’re doing it for other people, then being out there in the world with those people— Is there a world in which you would write something that doesn’t go into the world? Or is that not... I feel like that’s something I would not be able to do at this point in my— But I’m so wired and attuned to writing for consumption.Mary Laura PhilpottYeah.Jennie NashI mean, I write for myself. Of course I write the things I want to write—you know, all those things are true—and, yes, for other people.Mary Laura PhilpottYes. Well—and I tend to be similar to you in that regard. And there’s so much—you know, we talked a couple minutes ago about the difference between the therapeutic reasons why you start writing and then the actual hard, somewhat miserable work of getting it from the therapeutic version to something that is publishable. And that takes such discipline and real care for the art of it—of turning this thing that was helpful for your own brain into a piece of art that is worth someone investing in and putting out there in the world. I think—I do—I mean, in a way, I kind of write all the time, and you are similar to me in this. Like, we email, we—you know, we’re very communicative people, so the writing part of my brain is doing something all the time. And I have started a few little weird projects here and there where I’m like, “Oh, I’ve had an idea for this,” and I’ll, you know, write a few pages and then just kind of set it aside—without feeling like I’ve got to go attack it with that discipline that turns it into something.Jennie NashYeah.Mary Laura PhilpottAnd maybe that’s the part of my brain that’s just tired—that’s like, I’m still tired. And when I am untired, I will go back and pull those things out and play with them some more. I don’t know.Jennie NashYeah, yeah. Well, I love your characterization of that, because I have been talking about this—this newish idea—or I have newish words around this idea of calling it “Write Big”. And people often, I think rightly so, mistake that for big ambition, big goals, big wins, big success, big money—you know, all those things. And it’s not that at all, actually. It’s the doing the thing with your whole heart.Mary Laura PhilpottYes!Jennie NashNo matter what the thing is.Mary Laura PhilpottAnd not holding back.Jennie NashAnd what you’re saying is that the cost of that for you—you’re not going to do something. It’s not that. And the cost of that for you is too high.Mary Laura PhilpottAt the moment it is. At the moment, when I think about—when I look around at the life I’m in—and this is professionally and personally—there’s this interesting confluence, which is, I’m in my... I’ve just finished my first year of empty nesting. So this has been the first year of my life since I, you know, first had a baby, where my days do not in any way revolve around a school schedule, a nap schedule, a feeding schedule, etc. And then I did maybe the dumbest thing ever—and I adopted a puppy, who does have feeding and nap and all this other stuff. And so all my displaced maternal energy has now been funneled into this puppy, whom I absolutely love—but he is a wild and crazy ‘Looney Tune’. And when I look at the way my days look right now—which is the get up, make my coffee, walk the puppy, feed the puppy, you know, teach the puppy how to sit—and I think, do I feel like trading that right now for getting a dog sitter and going into my office and writing for multiple hours? I don’t. I don’t want to trade that right now. I may change—I fully reserve the right to change my mind and be like those, you know, sports players who are like, “I’m retired,” and then the next season, they’re like, “I’m out of retirement.” Maybe I’ll come out of retirement. But right now, what I want to do is feed my puppy, teach my puppy, be available on a moment’s notice. If a kid says, “Hey, I was the understudy for this play, but I got called up to be in a performance this weekend,” I want to be able to jump on a plane and go and not have other commitments. I’m enjoying that. And I do fully recognize—I should give this disclaimer—that this is a very privileged situation I am in. My income from books is not what paid our mortgage. I’m married. I have a spouse with a job that has health insurance, you know, so I’m able to make decisions. And I do feel the financial consequences of these decisions. Like, it’s not a small deal for me to be like, “I’m not going to write another book,” because that would have been important income—but it’s not the only income in our house. So I’m not—if I had still young children coming up, lots of tuitions to pay, mouths to feed—this might not be so easy for me to just be like, “I want to play with my puppy.”Jennie NashRight, right. Well—the idea we started with, of writing big, is trusting your gut. Not writing is trusting your gut. All of this starts and ends with: what do we think, what do we feel, what do we want to say?Mary Laura PhilpottYeah.Jennie NashThose are such hard things to know, and it feels like you’re just really tuned into that right now. And you talked at the very beginning—you said that it feels peaceful. Can you just maybe, to end our conversation, describe that feeling? Because that, I think, is what we all are looking for with our work—whether we’re doing it or not doing it—is peace around it.Mary Laura PhilpottYeah. I think a big part of the peace—and I wish I had found this earlier, when I did still have things to say and I was writing—because I think it could have removed a lot of distraction for me in writing big, the way you say—is tuning out other people’s voices. And if you are the type of person, as I am, who—like, when the Olympics are on TV and I see the person doing the high jump, I’m like, “I bet I could do that if I went and—” like, which obviously I cannot. But I have that part of my brain that’s like, “Should I try to do everything I’m capable of doing? Like, I can’t. I can’t leave anything undone. I should. I should go try to be the best at everything I could ever be the best at.” Because, you know, other people expect me to work hard and produce things. And to be able to tune out that inner voice and other people’s voices—those voices that equate productivity with worth—and, you know, “If people aren’t talking about the new thing you’ve done, then how do you even prove you’re worth the air you breathe?” Disconnecting from those voices is what led to the peace. And I think I was beginning to disconnect from that while I was writing Bomb Shelter. I think that’s why that book worked, in some ways—because I really—I mean, remember, I wrote it during the pandemic. I wrote it when I was stuck at home. I had less contact with the outside world than ever before. We did not know what book publishing was going to look like. We did not know if there would ever be another book tour. So I really did write that book in a bubble of having as little outside input as possible. So I think that’s the—maybe, if there’s any key to peace—it’s tuning out voices that you just don’t need.Jennie NashI love that. I love that so much. And I think we will end our conversation there, because it’s so profound and it’s so good.Mary Laura PhilpottThank you for having me.Jennie NashWell, for our listeners—until next time, stop playing small and write like it matters.NarratorThe Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output—because everyone deserves to be paid for their work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Jess here. Sarina and I discuss audiobook narration this week and explain how narrators get hired, paid, and dish some inside baseball on audiobook production. Transcript Below!Your subscription = good podcast karma. Sign up now to support the Podcast!SPONSORSHIP MESSAGEHey, listeners, did you know that we review first pages sent in by supporters every month on the pod? It’s just one more reason you should be supporting Hashtag AmWriting, which is always free for listeners and ad free too. Please note that we will never pitch you the latest in writer supplements or comfy clothes for lap-topping. The good news is we’re open for First Page submissions right now. If you’ve got a work in progress and you’d like to submit the first page for consideration for a Booklabs First Pages episode, just hit the support button in the show notes and you’ll get an email telling you all the details. Want to hear a Booklabs episode. Current ones are for supporters only but roll your pod player back to September 2024 and there they’ll be.EPISODE TRANSCRIPTIs it recording? Now it’s recording—yay. Go ahead. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone. I don’t remember what I’m supposed to be doing. All right, let’s start over. Awkward pause. I’m going to rustle some papers. Okay, now—one, two, three.Jess LaheyHey, welcome to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast. I’m your host, Jess Lahey, and this is the podcast about getting all the words done, writing all the things, writing, short things, long things, proposals, queries, poetry, all the things. But today, Jess and Sarina are bringing you the book nerdery stuff, the best stuff. This is The Publishing Nerd Corner. I love this new segment. I’m super excited about it, but first, my name is Jess Lahey. I am the author of The Gift of Failure and The Addiction Inoculation. You can find my journalism out there various places, including The New York Times. And you can find my newsletter at jesslahey.substack.com.Sarina BowenAnd I’m Sarina Bowen, the author of many contemporary novels. My new one is called Thrown for a Loop, and it drops on November 4, and it also will be published that same day as an audio book.Jess LaheyWhoo so...Sarina BowenAnd that is what...Jess LaheyYeah, we’re going to talk about audiobooks today, because Sarina knows so much about this—because she has to, like, hire her own narrator sometimes and stuff like that. All I know is, I narrated my own audiobook, and it was super fun, and I loved it. But we want to talk about all the aspects of how audiobooks work—all of it. There’s lots of fun stuff to talk about. Where would you like to start, Sarina?Sarina BowenThat is a good question. So, most of the time, if you are selling your book to a big publisher, audio rights will be included in your contract, and your publisher is therefore responsible for making the audiobook. You might be consulted about the choice of narrators, and that audio will magically appear finished on your publication date. But if you are a self-published author, then the existence or not of your audiobook is completely under your control. Audio has been the shining star of publishing for the last decade in that it is the growth story. I’m not sure how that has worked the last couple of years, but audio was one of the only areas of traditional publishing that demonstrated double-digit growth for much of the last decade. A lot of that has to do with the popularity and availability of streaming as a way that people listen to these books. Obviously, the technology shift made a huge difference, but so did things like cellular networks that work well and buffer easily. So...Jess LaheyCan I add one little, tiny thing? There’s been another reason that I think that audio has done so well, and that’s the acceptance within the education world—thanks to researchers like, for example, Dan Willingham and other people who study the brain and how we process and learn—that audiobooks are reading. From a processing perspective, from a learning perspective, listening to audiobooks is reading, and anyone who is telling you otherwise is not looking at the science. And so, this has been an incredible way—when you look at kids, for example, neurodivergent kids, dyslexic kids, kids who need another way to take in the information. It used to be that audio was like, “Oh no, that’s cheating,” and it is absolutely not cheating. So, I think that acceptance within the education world has been so great. And, you know, yes, it is a small part of the growth, but I do want to put that plug in there.Sarina BowenYeah. So, the way that, traditionally, audiobooks have been made is that a narrator goes into a booth and reads the book after having prepped it a bit in terms of maybe reading the whole book, maybe reading parts of the book, understanding what they’re going to bring to the table. If it’s fiction, then they’ll be looking to see what are the major voices, because audio narrators change their delivery to indicate voices. And one thing that’s interesting about the trend where we are in audio right now is that it’s very trendy for a nonfiction author to read their own work if they’re comfortable with it. That is widely done in nonfiction.Jess LaheyAnd it was one of my favorite parts of my process. And I have to say, nothing affected me more on an emotional level. I cried at the end of narrating both books. I had to pause at the very end—at the last couple, the last paragraph. It was such a moving experience for me to narrate my own book. And I have to say, it wasn’t a slam dunk that they were going to let me do that. I, you know, I worked really hard to be able to do that, because for some people, that’s just not their bag—it’s not something that comes naturally to them. But it was, for me anyway, my favorite part of the process.Sarina BowenYeah, so if you had written a novel, though, we wouldn’t be—Jess LaheyNo.Sarina Bowen—having that same conversation.Jess LaheyI’m not an actor. I don’t have the chops for that.Sarina BowenWell, a lot of authors of novels don’t understand this. It’s not that they don’t understand how their own book should sound and be delivered—it’s that what they don’t understand is that the way that novel audio sounds in 2025 is a specific trend in the way that readers want their books delivered. The books are very much acted. It wasn’t always this way. There were times when audio really sounded more like somebody just reading—and that’s okay. Like, there’s lots of room for style in terms of the way that audio fiction works. But right now, the trend in audio fiction is very much a performance. And one way that you can see this—and it continues to expand as a trend—is the trend toward something called duet audio, which means, for example, in romance, if there’s a male hero and a female heroine—and the way that most of my books work is that if the chapter is in the POV of a man, then the male narrator reads it. But of course, when he comes to a line of dialogue delivered in the heroine’s voice, he softens his tone a bit to indicate that she’s speaking, but he reads the whole chapter.Jess LaheyThey’re always amazing—that’s amazing to me when readers can do that. I mean, Davina Porter is the one that comes to mind—like, in the Outlander books, when she switches whose voice she’s reading. She switches whose voice—it’s down to the accent—and you don’t for a second think, “Oh, that’s the same person reading all of this.” And some of the narrators you use, Sarina, in your books—the same thing. My brain absolutely believes that I’m hearing a female voice versus a male voice. It’s a really incredible talent.Sarina BowenYeah. In fact, if this is of interest to you, there is a book called Thank You for Listening by Julia Whelan.Jess LaheyIt’s so good!Sarina BowenWho is one of the few who’s been very successful as both an author and a narrator, and her book is a little bit of inside baseball about narrators. And it’s a delight.Jess LaheyIt’s fun. It’s really fun.Sarina BowenOkay, so what I was just describing, though—where he reads a chapter and then she reads a chapter—we refer to that as dual narration (D-U-A-L). But there’s a new trend called duet, whereby in the same book, he would read the chapter, but if there was a line of dialogue from a woman, the female narrator would read that line.Jess LaheyWhich is more similar to me in terms of how it feels with, like, ensemble narration. Like, for example, Lincoln in the Bardo had a full cast of many characters, and every part was someone different, and those actors would chime in with their parts. So, same—similar idea.Sarina BowenWell, sometimes, sometimes a “full cast” audiobook just means that there are lots of very short chapters or segments. But to have every single line of dialogue cut in is really different than just saying a book has a full cast.Jess LaheyThat’s true. Actually, that’s true.Sarina BowenSo the thing about duet specifically is that the engineering part of it—the post-production—is really expensive because the engineer has to cut together this script, and actually preparing the script is also a lot of work. So it’s a pretty big deal to make a duet book. It’s more expensive. The cost of making a one-POV narrator book or a dual book is between, let’s say, $300 and $600 per finished hour.Jess LaheyWhat do you mean by that, Sarina?Sarina BowenSo, if you look at Audible right now, you can see the lengths of all of my audiobooks down to the minute. So it might say eight hours and thirty minutes. That means the finished length of that book is eight hours and thirty minutes. And the cost of making that book will be 8.5 times some number between $300 and $600. But if I did that book as duet, then it might be $1,000.Jess LaheyOkay, all right.Sarina BowenSo, every audiobook I’ve ever made cost between, like, three grand and seven grand. And if I were doing duet, then I would be hitting numbers more like $10,000.Jess LaheyAnd make no mistake—there are stars in the audiobook world who, like celebrities in films, can earn more per finished hour for their books. And that demand is really important because they have a vibe. There are fans of particular narrators who will listen to anything that narrator reads.Sarina BowenYeah, like my kids and I used to listen to audio narrated by Meryl Streep, and I’m sure she broke the curve for how much that cost per finished hour. But you should also know that the finished hour is not the same as how long it takes the narrator to do the job. So, if I’m paying a narrator $350 a finished hour, he is spending more time on that book, and his actual pay per hour is lower—like 150 bucks or whatever. It depends on his ratio of how fast he can narrate a book. And also, narrators’ voices get tired. They can’t narrate forty hours a week—although, actually, some of them probably do—but, you know, it’s a hard job. So, if you’re thinking, “I’m not going to pay someone $350 an hour to narrate my book,” you should know that it doesn’t really work that way, and that really is the price for a reason.Jess LaheyAnd they’re fun—just for some fun inside baseball things. Like, for both of my books, narration hours when we worked—our starting time in the morning was pushed up a little bit because no one wants to get an audiobook narrator right after they woke up. Your voice is not primed. Your voice has gunk in it. So, we would start later. You really could only go—you know, with my first book, I think we went until, like, three in the afternoon or something. You have to take a break for lunch, and then after you eat lunch, you get all these weird secretions, and it takes time to get back into it. There’s just some weird stuff that I didn’t count on—like it was better for me to be hungry (except then my stomach would make noises, which the microphones would pick up) than to stop and eat and have to get back in the groove. Because when you’re in the groove, you kind of don’t want to stop. There was just so much more to it than I ever anticipated. It was a blast, but it took me almost a whole week. We had scheduled five days for The Gift of Failure—it’s like 78,000, 80,000 words, or something like that. We scheduled five full days; we ended up taking four. And I didn’t have pickups for that book, but I did have pickups for The Addiction Inoculation. There was a lot more scientific language in that book that we had to do some pickups for. So, yeah, it’s—Sarina BowenPickups means edit.Jess LaheyYeah. So, there were a couple days where I came in—and so I actually did The Addiction Inoculation during COVID. I was at a studio here locally in Vermont with my director, the producer of the audio in one ear of my headphones, and my producer from Harper in my other ear, in New York or wherever she was. We were working in a sound booth in Vermont. And, you know, in the evening, that producer would go over the audio and make sure that all of the words were pronounced correctly and everything was good. And then the next day, we would do pickups along with the new work as well.Sarina BowenRight. So, the editing that happens is really down to the word. Like, the engineer will sit there and, you know, go right into that space between the two words that you said and put the new thing in. And when a professional narrator is in the booth, they operate in a way that’s called punch and roll, which means that they will stop when they make an error, go back—looking at that visual sine wave of the audio on their screen—find the pause between the words, go right to that spot, and then roll forward by hitting record again and then speaking the word that they meant to say.Jess LaheySome audiobook narrators use a clicker too. It’s a way of being able to see on the wave where you, you know, might need to go back and figure something out.Sarina BowenYeah. So, um, there’s a lot that goes into this. Humans make a lot of noises that we’re trying not to hear. Like, some engineers will go in and dampen the breath sounds.Jess LaheyYeah. Yep.Sarina BowenYou know, they’ll go in and take out the “heeeeh.”Jess LaheyActually, I had to change my clothes. My sweater was making too much noise. It turns out when I narrate, I use my arms a lot—so I actually had to learn how to narrate with my arms resting on the armrests but only using my lower arms. So, I look like the robot in Lost in Space with my little—my little—and also, my hair had to be up because my hair made noise too. And you can’t wear jewelry, you know, like bracelets and things like that also make noise.Sarina BowenYep. And narrators all have stories like, “I can’t eat Indian food before I narrate,” or “When I go in the booth after lunch, I strap pillows around my midsection.” Like all this stuff to make sure that the sound quality works. So, that brings us to a difficult topic in how audiobooks are made, which is that a lot of books are flooding the market with AI voices. And everybody’s heard AI voices before—for example, if you’ve ever been on TikTok and you hear that weird, artificial female voice reading the—I don’t even know how to explain it—but that’s primarily why I never go on TikTok, because I cannot stand that artificial voice.Jess LaheyI listened to—I listened to an article yesterday with The New York Times that was AI-generated that was better than those awful TikTok voices, but still, you know—still AI.Sarina BowenYeah. So, I am not going to spend our time discussing whether those voices are good or not, but it has really gotten messy. At the beginning of AI narration, some platforms said, “No way, no how. We will never have one.” And then a lot of platforms suddenly allowed for it. So, there’s lots of AI narration in the world, and it’s causing real havoc, especially among people whose livelihoods are being affected by a drop in audio work. I really believe that the readers of my books care very much about the delivery, and it’s hard for me to think that an AI voice could carry the kind of emotion that romance readers are looking for in an audiobook. So, I hope—I hope that audio listeners continue to demand quality, because it’s a big deal.Jess LaheyAt least right now, your listeners—you know, they love Teddy Hamilton. Or, you know, there are audiobook narrators who are very specifically—people get excited when they see a particular narrator’s voice attached to your work. And I think—and again, in Thank You for Listening, there’s that good—she goes into great detail on that whole inside baseball of narrator fans. And like, Teddy Hamilton has fans—has a fan base. And I hope that persists, because I think there’s real value in that. I hope there’s real value in that, and I hope people continue to value it.Sarina BowenYeah, and I don’t think that’s going away anytime soon. People really aren’t clamoring to see AI Meryl Streep on the screen at the movies—and, you know, paying a movie ticket price for that. And I believe that in narration land, yeah, it’s the people coming up that will suffer the most—the newer narrators who don’t have a fan base yet and are struggling to get work. So, yeah—anyway, that is one thing. And we could talk about how to get your book done in AI production now, but I think we won’t, because...Jess LaheyYeah.Sarina BowenBecause that’s, you know, not—you can figure that out yourself if that’s interesting to you. But, um, I believe that humans are still the way to go here.Jess LaheyThere was an interesting note. So, when I said that I worked really hard to get the chops to narrate my own audiobook—I mean, I went to go work for Vermont Public Radio. I recorded these commentaries. And these commentaries that my producer taught me how to record—there was a really interesting note she gave me, which is that these commentaries are really short, like just a couple of minutes—less than three minutes. And one of the things she taught me is that when I’m reading these commentaries, if at the end I look up at my producer and smile and make eye contact with my producer that it makes the narrator be even more connected to the listener. And she’s absolutely right. You could hear a difference in the commentary when I was making eye contact with my producer, and I find that fascinating and intangible and magic. There is a magic in that that I hope we do not lose with AI.Sarina BowenYes, absolutely—and that is a fantastic place to close this episode.Jess LaheyAbsolutely.Sarina BowenLet’s not lose that magic.Jess LaheyIf there are things you would like us to talk about when it comes to the nerdery of publishing—in the Publishing Nerd Corner—if you’re a huge fan of publishing nerdery, I also would love to recommend that you go over and follow Jane Friedman immediately, because she is such a great writer about the nerdery stuff in publishing. But we will continue to talk about it. If there are things you would like to know about, please let us know.But until next week, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.NarratorThe Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output—because everyone deserves to be paid for their work. 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In this Write Big Session, Jennie and KJ dive into what it really means to “write big” when you’re deep in the messy middle of a novel. KJ shares how she’s tackling her new book by working backward from the ending—mapping out the emotional and plot arcs for each character to keep herself focused and out of the coffee-chat scenes she loves to write. Jennie cheers her on, unpacking how this kind of clarity, self-awareness, and trust in the reader is what turns a good book into a great one.TRANSCRIPT BELOW!THINGS MENTIONED IN THIS PODCAST* The Correspondent* KJ’s Review of The CorrespondentSPONSORSHIP MESSAGEHey, this is Jennie Nash, and I wanted to invite you to check out my Substack newsletter, The Art & Business of Book Coaching. It’s totally free unless you choose to support me, and it’s secretly really great for writers. The reason is that book coaches are in the business of helping writers do their best work. So I’m always talking about writer mindset and things like helping a writer find their structure or find an agent or find their position in the marketplace. If you’re considering investing in having somebody help you, it’s a great way to get prepared to know who you might want to pick and what you might want to ask of them. You’ll get an inside peek at the way that the people who are in the business of helping writers think about writers, and so in that way, it can help you become a better writer just by tuning in. I have a lot of writers following me over there, so if you’re interested, come check it out you can find it at substack.com/@JennieNash. That’s substack.com/@JennieNash, and it’s J-E-N-N-I-E.EPISODE TRANSCRIPTJennie NashHi, I’m Jennie Nash, and you’re listening to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast. This is a Write Big Session, where I’m bringing you short episodes about the mindset shifts that help you stop playing small and write like it matters. Today I’m talking to KJ, and we’re going to be doing recurring episodes where we talk about her efforts to play big and write big in her new novel. Hi, KJ.KJ Dell’AntoniaHi! This is going to be so fun. Okay, so I’ll tell you what—yeah, I’ll tell you what I’ve been working on. What I’m thinking—like, my theory here is sort of avoid the muddly middle by writing the end, or kind of outlining to the end. So I have about 30,000 words. I’ve really established things. The main events have really started to happen, and I know kind of where they’re going, but I kind of hit a point where I wasn’t sure, like, what should happen next, in what order. And I know myself—I am very prone, at this point, to just flaking off into people having coffee and talking.Jennie NashYes, you are! You are really good at that.KJ Dell’AntoniaExactly. And they would be very entertaining and enjoyable scenes of people having coffee and—or doing whatever. But there is—I mean, I have five point-of-view characters, one main one, but—and all of them have lots of stuff going on in their lives, some of which has to do with this, and some of which doesn’t. Well, all of it does, but you don’t—it’s not all the core, either the core emotional plot or the core actual plot. So what I did was to start sketching out the stuff that happens next, and then I kind of have jumped ahead, and what I’m working on now—and I’d love your sort of feedback on this as an idea—is I wrote out, like, okay, here’s the emotional end for each of these characters. Here’s where they need to end up, and then here’s the plot end for each of these characters in, like, the happy ending, if there was an epilogue—which this is not really that kind of book kind of way—just so I know, like, this is where… And now I am focused on, okay, what should, like, the last scene of this be? I know what happens, but I’m trying to figure out, like, what would be the—what would be the last thing? And I may get this in the wrong order, but anyway, that’s where I am, and I’m going to build those backwards until I catch up to my middle, and I’m thinking that will keep me—keep my eye on the ball. What do you think?Jennie NashWell, I could not love this more for you. I really couldn’t, because I know what you’re trying to do, and I feel like you’re doing it, and we’re getting at this idea of what does it mean to write big, and you’re trying to solve for something that you just identified for us—that you have it, you tend to fall into—and you’re trying to not do that. And you’re trying to write a bigger, better book because of it, and it’s so interesting because it’s a super nuanced thing you’re talking about, but it’s also where the difference—that’s how you get from good to great—and you’re trying to get to great. So I just love this so much. And what I hear is that you’ve outlined this book, which I know is hard for you, and now you’re kind of using that outline to scaffold yourself to write an emotionally satisfying story. So I just—I love it as a tactic for writing big.KJ Dell’AntoniaBecause even if I go back to that outline, like, there are some things happening in these people’s personal lives that are deeply important to them—and, I think, important to the reader—but not in the sense that I need pages and pages of either discussion or introspection about them. It’s more that those are—that they really need to stay back, not background exactly, but in this intense moment of these people’s lives, those things are still in their heads. Like, they’re still going, you know, Wait, what just happened means that I am never going to get a resolution to this thing that I’m deeply worried about—but also I have to deal with this, with this death and this crisis. And so I was thinking that doing this would keep me focused on the emotionality of the crisis.Jennie NashYeah, because you’re really good at plot. You’re really good at plot, and the other component that—underlying what is—the emotion of this person is something you’ve had to work harder at. And what I love about that is that this is how you get really fully fleshed-out characters. Because, like, I have a friend who is going through a heartbreak, and every single thing she does right now is done through the lens of that heartbreak. So even if she says, “Hey, do you want to go on a whale-watching trip out to the islands this weekend?” it’s not just about let’s go on a whale-watching trip, right? It’s about—KJ Dell’AntoniaRight.Jennie NashBut she’s not going to say that when she asks me to go on the whale-watching trip. She’s not going to say, “Because, you know, I’m lonely and sad,” you know? So what you’re doing is giving your characters these rich lives. But that’s not the story.KJ Dell’AntoniaAnd also, I think it will help me to trust the readers—to pay attention to what matters about the rich lives. So, you know, to trust the reader to keep in their head that if someone has a passing, fleeting thought about one of those emotional—you know, one of those pieces of emotional background—that they will still either be wondering about it, if I haven’t revealed it yet, or, you know, recognize it for what it is. And I suspect that I’m going to forget some of them. As I go back through my outline, I’m like, Oh yeah, totally forgot she had this particular problem, and this is how this is going to be resolved. And that may mean that some of them don’t stay, although I think they will. I think it just means that I got—that, you know, ninety thousand words’ worth of story is a lot to keep in your head.Jennie NashSo when you sit down to write, how are you doing it differently? I mean, we know that you’re very good at productivity—doing the stickers, sitting down, doing the work—but how are you making yourself think in this different way this time?KJ Dell’AntoniaI am not drafting. I am staring. And I have two—oh, I have a Google Doc of about forty-six files at this point. Then—actually, no, I think it’s twenty-eight. So I have an outline that you are sometimes looking at, which has everything that I’ve written so far, and then a chunk of things that I know are coming up, where I could write those pretty quickly. The problem is… I would hit a wall at the end of them. So I want to come back and make sure that they’re what I want to—or at least what I think I want to—write. So I’m going into a sort of a secondary outline, and I’m writing things like—because a lot of what’s happening now is also that I am figuring out things that are happening now in the story that the reader won’t know till the end, because a lot of people did a lot of stuff—Jennie NashYeah.KJ Dell’Antonia—in this twenty-four-hour period, and some of it you may never know, but I need to know how and why—Jennie NashYeah.KJ Dell’Antonia…they did those things. So I’m kind of writing like, “What if he did this?” and, “Oh, you know, but—but wait, why? Why would he show up there at this moment?” and, like, resolving that and kind of coming up with all of that, even though that isn’t going to go in those pages. So I did—I worked on that this morning, and then I worked on—I wrote out the emotional ends for everyone. And now I’m just trying to—I’m thinking what I’ll kind of do is I’ll plot-outline backwards, and then I’ll emotion-outline backwards-forwards from there.Jennie NashYeah. Yeah.KJ Dell’AntoniaNo, no—well, backwards, I think, maybe because I know where they’re going to end. I don’t know whether—or I’ll sketch, I’ll sketch in the emotional bit. So what you—when you were looking at this, you could see that there’s a section of about seven lines that are pure plot.Jennie NashYeah. Yeah.KJ Dell’AntoniaBecause… that’s just me. I think, at this point, because this is a thriller and it’s complicated, I need to figure out—and then you and I—we had this great moment where, in one of those, I was like, I don’t know whose point of view the scene was from, and you said something very useful to me, which is, “Whose story would seeing this affect most?” And I knew—and I immediately knew the answer to that. So—Jennie NashI… I thought that you might.KJ Dell’AntoniaThat was a great way to deal with that.Jennie NashYeah.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah. I thought that you might. So I know we’re talking vaguely, but it’s this idea that when you have something that happens in the story, and there’s choices about what is the result of that action in the story—that different things could happen, different people could show up, different things could be said, different, you know, directions could go from this plot point. And right—the quest—you were saying, I’m not sure who’s going to be part of this action?Jennie NashWho’s going to find it?KJ Dell’AntoniaRight?Jennie NashYeah, who’s going to find this one character having this—I don’t—I know—I don’t want it to be from that character’s point of view. Somebody needs to come upon a character, you know, who’s just made a really crushing emotional discovery. And the question of who would—seeing that—whose emotional story would that alter the most? Because the plot at that point is going to be rolling. Like, I almost don’t have just the facts of what’s happening here; like, the plots are basically almost a one-line thing. So, like, the plot goes… yeah…Jennie NashThat’s what we’re getting at here. This is what it means to write big—it’s what you’re thinking about. We know what the plot is. It’s really quite simple. I mean, it’s straightforward, I should say—how you present it is not simple. And the emotional part—that’s what’s going to give us the emotional punch—is not simple. And so the decisions about every—at every plot point—what’s going to give the most emotional resonance here—that’s what writing big is. And you said something that I want to point back to, which is, you’re holding all of this in your head. I have always said that I think the primary skill of a really skillful novelist is holding multiple things in their head at one time, right?KJ Dell’AntoniaIt’s all in there. It’s like a big—it’s like a big sack of Jell-O.Jennie NashYeah? But the ability to—I mean, it’s funny you use that metaphor—but it’s more, it’s more like, I think of it as threads. And you’re like, “Okay, got this thread, and I got this thread, I’m holding these threads, and I’m weaving them together, and I have a grasp of all the threads.” That’s what you’re doing, and it’s that—it’s that skill. You have to have self-awareness, you have to have story awareness, you have to have confidence and authority—like, there are so many things that you have to have to pull that off, and I see that that’s what you’re trying to do here. And it’s so cool to watch. I love it.KJ Dell’AntoniaAnd I don’t feel like I have those things. And I do think, you know, as I’m thinking about listeners out there going, I don’t have those things, I mean, I get that. I don’t feel like I have them either. I think when we, as readers, are also seeing ourselves as a writer, like, a really common thing that we think as a reader is, Oh, I know how a story works because I’ve read so many of them. And then I personally had to learn from Jennie quite a few years ago now that that did not actually teach me how to do this—structure the spot—but the holding the whole mess in your head, I think that may be what you get from a lifetime of reading—is this ability to have a big, loose grasp and, you know, keep enough notes to know that you’ve put a—you know, a pin in some section to come back to it, and that kind of thing. I feel like that might be the thing that we do have within us.Jennie NashAbsolutely. I’m looking—I’m trying to find—I just started reading a book based on your recommendation, and I can’t, I can’t find it, but you’re going to know what it is. It’s the novel in letters, the—uh…KJ Dell’AntoniaOh, The Correspondent.Jennie NashThe Correspondent, thank you. I mean, I—KJ Dell’AntoniaThat’s a first novel, but from a very adult human being. You know, it’s not a first-first novel by a twenty-two-year-old. It’s a first novel from probably somebody who’s probably written a few.Jennie NashBut the reason that I—well, I always love the way that you talk about books. Your sense as a reader, I just really appreciate. But you said something about it—that this book really trusts the reader to fill in the blanks, to figure out what’s happening. They’re not spoon-feeding you. And you mentioned how that felt unusual these days. And I thought, Oh, I want that experience as a reader. And also, I love that experience as a person who studies how books are made, and that trying to build that experience for the reader—that’s what you’re trying to do. By holding all those things in your head and deciding how and when to share them, or whose hands to put them in in a particular scene, or that sort of thing—that’s how you build that. And it’s hard. It’s really hard. So I applaud you for—you’re in there, it’s messy, you’re doing it, you’re doing it. It’s so exciting.KJ Dell’AntoniaAnd one of the other things that we’ve talked about is how, like, every time many of us write, we’re trying to write bigger. Like, this—it’s not an insult to our past work; it’s just we’re trying to do bigger and do more. And so I’m thinking about—so when I was writing my earliest books, I remember that one of the things I was focusing on in books that I was reading was how people began things, and where, you know, where the turning points were—kind of where the Save the Cat!, moments were, absolutely, in terms of… but not just where those were, but sort of how they were done—like how people regret, and how they demonstrated who the protagonists were. And then I remember moving on to a question of how little does someone put in a book about a secondary character, or someone who really mattered to the protagonist’s life, that tells me what I need to know as a reader but doesn’t take up a lot of pages.Jennie NashYeah.KJ Dell’AntoniaAnd I would literally go in and count—like, okay, how many times did we see this mother that I fully understand how important they were to the protagonist? And it’ll be, like, twice and a couple of references. So I remember doing that. And now I feel like what I’m really paying attention to is how little does a book that I really enjoy—the process of sort of working my way through—how little does it give people, and how much does it demand that you figure out?Jennie NashYeah.KJ Dell’AntoniaHow little information are you given so that you can do—because that’s the good work of a reader. Sometimes you don’t want to do that, you know? Sometimes you kind of want it all served up, or you kind of want something where the tropes are simple enough that you can—but sometimes you really want something where you have to do some figuring out. And it doesn’t—The Correspondent is not a thriller.Jennie NashRight.KJ Dell’AntoniaBut you really have to figure out, like, who is this person, and why do they do this, and why are they able to do this, and why—how are they making mistakes by doing—and by “do this,” I mean, she’s a letter writer. She’s the correspondent. She writes letters instead of, as it turns out, really, instead of talking to people. But it’s really good, so I do recommend it.Jennie NashSo I like to end these short episodes with a reflection that the listener can do, or something that they can take away to think about based on what we’ve talked about. Is there something that comes to your mind that you would recommend?KJ Dell’AntoniaWell, it’s a little dependent on where you are in your manuscript, but I think—so what I’m really going to recommend is, come at what you’re doing from a different angle within the book. Start from something you know happens, and either work backwards up to it or forwards or backwards from it, instead of working chronologically—not necessarily in terms of drafting, but just in terms of figuring out what are the very most important things that have to show up on the page.Jennie NashI love that. Well, until next time, for everyone listening—stop playing small and write like it matters.NarratorThe Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.#AmWriting: A Groupstack is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

In this #amwriting podcast episode, Jennie Nash talks about what it means to “play big” on the page. Using Ian McEwan’s choice to write his latest novel without research as an example, she shows how true impact comes when a writer fully owns their story and brings it to life with depth and intention. She encourages listeners to think about their own top five most powerful reads, notice what made those books unforgettable, and aim to create that same sense of bigness in their own writingTranscript Below!#AmWriting: A Groupstack is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support our work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.SPONSORSHIP MESSAGEHey, it’s Jess Lahey. If you’ve been listening to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast for any length of time, you know that yes, I am a writer—but my true love, my deepest love, is combining writing with speaking. I get to go into schools, community organizations, nonprofits, and businesses, and do everything from lunch-and-learns to community reads to just teaching about the topics that I’m an expert in—from the topics in The Gift of Failure: engagement, learning, learning in the brain, cognitive development, getting kids motivated—and, yes, the topic of overparenting and what that does to kids’ learning. Two topics around The Addiction Inoculation are substance use prevention in kids, and—what I’ve been doing lately that’s the most fun for me, frankly—is combining the two. It makes the topic of substance use prevention more approachable, less scary, when we’re talking about it in the context of learning, motivation, self-efficacy, competence, and—yes—cognitive development. So if you have any interest in bringing me into your school, your nonprofit, your business—I would love to come. You can go to JessicaLahey.com. Look under the menu option “Speaking,” and go down to “Speaking Inquiry.” There’s also a lot of information on my website about what I do—there are videos there about how I do it. Please feel free to get in touch, and I hope I get to come to your community. If you put in the speaking inquiry that you are a Hashtag AmWriting listener, we can talk about a discount—so that can be one of the bonuses for being a loyal and long-term listener to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast.Hope to hear from you.EPISODE TRANSCRIPTHi, I’m Jennie Nash, and you’re listening to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast. This is a Write Big session, where I’m bringing you short episodes about the mindset shifts that help you stop playing small and write like it matters.Today we’re talking about how writing big shows up on the page—how you know when somebody else has done it, when a writer has really wrestled with their material, when they’ve really thought about what matters about it and why it matters, and how they want their readers to feel. They’ve done all the work of making the choices that deliver an experience to their reader. You can feel it—and you want it.Just before Ian McEwan’s new novel came out—which is called What We Can Know—I read an interview with him in The Wall Street Journal, and the interviewer, whose name is Jon Mooallem, asked McEwan this: “You seem to savor research for your books. To write about a brain surgeon, in Saturday, you observed brain surgeries. Here you’re writing about a future that’s so plausible-seeming and specific but diverges dramatically from all the well-worn dystopian tropes. How do you go about researching the future?” And McEwan answers, “I didn’t do any research for this novel.” The interviewer says, “Amazing—none?” And McEwan says, “I could have written it from a prison cell. I mean, there are factoids I looked up on the internet in 30 seconds, but as I approach 80, I’d rather revel in taking a walk through my own mind.”I don’t normally read dystopian fiction, but when I heard that answer, I went and pre-ordered the book. I’ve read some of McEwan’s other books and have adored them—especially Atonement. So he’s on my radar as a writer that I like to read, and a writer that is worth my time. But I pass up a lot of books by writers whose previous work I’ve liked, so it’s not a foregone conclusion that I would have read this one. But that idea—that he did no research for a sci-fi dystopian novel—and those words about how “I’d rather revel in taking a walk through my own mind”—that tells me that this is a book in which he’s playing big, and that’s a book that I want to read.It’s not that there’s anything wrong with research, obviously. People who are writing nonfiction are going to need to do a lot of research, and people writing historical fiction or maybe memoir, and people writing sci-fi or fantasy who are making up worlds that have new technologies or thinking about future systems of government or transportation or food delivery or any of that, are going to need to do research. It’s not that I’m knocking that. What I heard, though, was this idea of a writer who was just owning this story—who had it alive in their head and was bringing it to life on the page. And that’s what I always am looking for, and I suspect it’s what you’re looking for, too.If I were to ask you to reel off your all-time top favorite five books, I bet you would be able to. These books live in our minds because of the experience that they delivered to us. And sometimes it’s because they came at the exact right moment in our lives. A lot of people will reference a book like Charlotte’s Web, which maybe was one of the first books that they ever read—or one of the first times they understood what death is about. Or people will talk about Are You There God? It’s Me, Margaret, because they felt, for the first time, that this author was really speaking to them and got into their heads and their hearts. So there’s a huge part of this about where we are in our lives when we encounter a particular book and why it might hit us in that particular way. But if you really think about that list of five books, you’re going to understand that there’s something about those books where the author was playing big. They own their story in a very specific way.One of the books that would be on my top-five list would have to be the book Desert Solitaire by Edward Abbey. This is a memoir that I read when I was a teenager. I think I pulled it off of the shelf of my dad’s study. It’s a story of this guy who spends a season in the wilderness. He is a ranger at Arches National Park, which is one of those beautiful parks out in the middle of the desert. It’s a red-rock landscape, and there are arches out there made out of that rock. It’s a very harsh environment, and he is out there greeting the people who dared to come visit this space. And the reason that book is on my list is that I read it more than forty-five years ago, and I can still remember exactly what it felt like to open that book and start reading. Edward Abbey writes in a very specific and unique and intense voice, and he has very big and controversial thoughts about comfort and wilderness and what people seek when they go out there. But for me, the reason that book stays on my top all-time list is because that was the book that helped me finally understand my father. And my father was a professor of environmental studies. He spent a lot of time out in the wilderness, in places that were harsh and uncomfortable, and he had a lot of very strong opinions, like Abbey. And he was a hard man to understand because of some of these things. And as a kid growing up and, you know, becoming a teenager, I didn’t understand him, and it was a struggle to understand him. And when I read this book, it was as if somebody handed me a whole new understanding. And I just thought, Oh, this is it. I get it. I get him now. And I can call up that feeling all these years later—of how amazing it was to have somebody see me and see my dad in a way that I hadn’t been able to see. So when I think about that experience, and I think about what it was like to be immersed in that book…To me, that is a memory of somebody who played big. I think it was one of the first times I encountered—certainly in an adult book—somebody who was writing big. That book just had a bigness about it, a sense that the author was holding nothing back.And what I mean about holding nothing back—I don’t mean that all good writing is just dumping your most private or vulnerable thoughts on the page, or forcing that kind of revelatory work on somebody. That’s not what I mean. I mean that there’s a sense of depth to it, a feeling of authority—of that author having come as close as you can get to bringing their vision to life. That’s what makes a reading experience unforgettable. And it’s worth noting here that we live in the time of AI, and AI can do a lot for a story. It can analyze your structure. It can flag plot holes. It can suggest fixes. There’s a whole lot that you can use it for if you so choose. People can decide whether they want to use these tools in their work or not.But the thing is that, no matter if you’re using those tools, AI can never touch this thing that we’re talking about. It can never do the work of the heart—of deciding why a story matters, or why a book matters, or why you’re willing to risk writing it or going all in on it. It can never connect with the reader who’s going to encounter that work on the other side, because it’s a machine.And this human work of connecting is what playing big is really about.Playing small is skating across the surface of an idea. It’s polishing words while avoiding the deep meaning. It’s leaning on formulas or tropes or trends or tools to do the heavy lifting of intention. The result may be polished, it may be clean, it may be publishable—it may even do well in the marketplace—but it lacks that sense of aliveness that only you can bring, that sense that this work mattered to the writer. So what I’d like you to do today is think about the top five books that you have read in your life and that you remember and that hit you with a strong power. And it might be fun to think about what you felt when you read them and why they impacted you in that way. But what I really want you to do is to pin down the reason why that book has a sense of bigness to it. What did the writer do to make you feel what you felt? And I don’t mean tactically—we’re looking for something ineffable here, some sense about why that writer was playing big. And then you might write down the way you want your reader to feel when they finish your book, and ask yourself: what do I need to put on the page to make that happen?Until next time—stop playing small and write like it matters.NarratorThe Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Hey all, Jess here. Sarina and I both love these episodes where we, two certified nerds, get to hang out with likeminded individuals and dish. This week, we are going to talk about one of Jess’ most niggling worries: what does it mean to a publisher and an author to “earn out” a book advance and what does it mean to both if that never happens?Transcript available below, but making good ones isn’t free—help support the Podcast below!Your subscription = good podcast karma.KJ Dell’AntoniaHey listeners. Did you know that we review first pages sent in by supporters every month on the pod? It’s just one more reason you should be supporting Hashtag AmWriting, which is always free for listeners—and ad free, too. Please note that we will never pitch you the latest in writer supplements or comfy clothes for lap-topping. The good news is we’re open for First Page submissions right now! If you’ve got a work-in-progress and you’d like to submit the First Page for consideration for a Booklab: First Pages episode, just hit the support button in the show note, and you’ll get an email telling you all the details. Want to hear a Booklab episode? Current ones are for supporters only but roll your pod player back to September 2024 and there they’ll be!Multiple SpeakersIs it recording? Now it’s recording—yay. Go ahead. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone. I don’t remember what I’m supposed to be doing. All right, let’s start over. Awkward pause. I’m going to rustle some papers. Okay, now—one, two, three.Jess LaheyHey—welcome to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast! This is a podcast about writing all the things—this is the podcast about writing short things, long things, you know. And specifically, where we’re going to focus these days is on a little episode we’re calling The Publishing Nerd Corner with Jess and Sarina. I’m Jess Lahey. I’m the author of The Gift of Failure and The Addiction Inoculation, and you can find my work at The Atlantic, at The New York Times, at The Washington Post, and at jesslahey.substack.com.Sarina BowenAnd I’m Sarina Bowen, the author of many contemporary novels. My new one is called Thrown for a Loop, and it drops on November 4th , and I am so excited. And today’s topic actually pertains to what happens when you have a book that’s publishing and everybody has all these big expectations. We’re going to cover one of them, which is earning out your advance—or not—and how to frame your thinking around this.Jess LaheyYeah, first. I mean, the way this Nerd Corner works is because Sarina tends to have more of the business acumen and the nerd acumen. I let her do a lot of teaching me. But one thing I would like to state at the very beginning of this—and apologies, I didn’t look up the stats; Sarina might know them—the number of books that actually earn out their advance if it’s nonfiction. For example, my book that we’re going to talk about today is nonfiction, and so I got a big advance based on a—and we’re going to talk about that. We’re going to talk numbers. It makes authors really nervous, but I think it’s important. The number of authors that actually earn out is really, really low—like, much lower than you expect. . So “earning out” can mean a couple of different things, and we’re going to talk about that today. But to set the scene, we’re going to use my book The Gift of Failure as the example for earning out. as the example for earning out. So I’ve sold a lot of books—like, this book was a success by any measure. It was on The New York Times bestseller list. I had Kristen Bell go on Instagram and say, “Buy this book, it’s so great,” and it sold out across the country. I am not complaining here; I am just saying that it makes me extremely nervous that technically I have not earned out my advance on The Gift of Failure. Again, to set the scene, The Gift of Failure was based originally—it came out of an article that went viral at The Atlantic on why parents need to let their children fail. There was a big auction for this book that lasted three whole days. It was very exciting, and the number kept going up and up and up. And I was freaking out, because now you’ve got huge expectations. I mean, I’m thrilled, but the expectations keep getting bigger and bigger. So where we ended up was Harper Books came back with the highest bid, and it was also for the editor that I was most excited to work with, Gail Winston, and it came in at $400,000, so that was wonderful. That was great. It was based on—I got five payments over five, essentially, five years, and I have not earned back that advance for my publisher. So, Sarina, what would you say to me—a writer who is stressed out because that means, you know, when they’re looking at purchasing other books like The Addiction Inoculation, I was able to sell to them, even though it’s a tough niche, that little—it’s a tough corner, that addiction corner—and they knew that this book was not going to sell as well. But on the strength of my sales of the addiction…excuse me, of The Gift of Failure, I was able to sell that book, but I hadn’t earned out. So why are they going to pay me to write another book if I hadn’t earned out?Sarina BowenIt’s such a great question. So the thing—the punch line of this episode—is we just want you to know that if you don’t earn out, you’re not a failure. And we don’t mean it in a nice way, like everybody gets a ribbon. We mean, like, you might not be a financial failure for the publisher, even though on your statement it says you still haven’t earned back your advance. And that’s because the advance that you’re paid is part of a profit-and-loss estimate that the publisher makes before they offer on a book. And just in case anybody is squishy about this—like, an advance means those royalty amounts in your contract, you’re getting paid an upfront amount, and then you have to, like, earn it back with those royalty amounts in your contract.Jess LaheyAnd for those who actually are not familiar with this at all, I don’t have to pay back the money if I don’t earn out. That’s not a thing.Sarina BowenRight. So the publisher said, “We like this book so much we are going to pay you $400,000, and we think that you will sell enough copies that we will be in the black on our P&L statement.” But they never show us the P&L statement. So let’s just say that they had a P&L statement that shows that they’re profitable on this book even if you only sell 70,000 copies—but you’ve sold over twice that amount. So when I worked on Wall Street, I was given a bonus every year, and the bonus made everybody feel like, “This is the amount of money that you’re worth.” But what it really was is “This is the amount of money we have to pay you so you won’t quit and go work for somebody else.” And an advance is exactly the same thing—it’s how much do we have to pay you to win, but also in a way that looks okay on our profit-and-loss estimate of what this book can do. And of course, you mentioned that we don’t have good data about how many books earn back their advances. And the truth is, even if you and I had done a deep dive prior to sitting down here today, we still wouldn’t know, because nobody publishes these numbers. And the only time that you get a glimpse of them is when some publishing executive is on the stand in a court case about, say, whether two Big Five publishers can merge.Jess LaheyGotcha.Sarina BowenAnd then, yeah. And then they tend to say various things—like, they’ll give a statistic, and then everybody in publishing will be, like, nailed to the transcript of this court case to see, like, how is everybody doing in there? Because, you know, nobody—nobody tells you. Nobody is obligated, even in a publicly traded company, to give these precise statistics about how often people earn out.So earning out has some pros and cons. Like, so you said that writing this book—because you sold it on proposal, and then you had to write it, and you had this big amount of money that you had to recoup—and that is so intimidating. And I’ve been in this same situation. I sold The Five Year Lie to HarperCollins two years before that book was published, and I still had to write the book, because that book was actually also sold on proposal.Jess LaheyWhich doesn’t happen very often, dear listener. Do—Sarina BowenThat’s rightJess Lahey—not think that you can sell your first fiction on proposal. That’s not how it works.Sarina BowenRight—that will never happen. But, um, this was my, like, 50th novel, and then you can sell on proposal. But anyway, I also had to write something in a new genre with my own expectations built in, and that’s scary. But the reason we need this fear—the value of this fear—is that both of our publishers were invested in our success. If I had been offered a low advance and I had taken this deal, then, um, sure, I would be less stressed out about the success of the book—but so would my publisher. The more skin they have in the game, the better they’re going to see your project through.Jess LaheyRight.Sarina BowenAnd that is valuable. So a little bit of our fear—or, okay, fine, a lot of it—is actually doing things for this calculation that we need, that we require.Jess LaheyAnd to decode that—what that can often mean is marketing budget. So The Gift of Failure had, you know, the amount that they’re willing to invest, including the number of hours my publicist at Harper is willing to invest in publicizing this book, comes down to how invested they are in the book. And given the number that I got, they’re pretty invested in this book. And, you know, I was pretty happy with some of the publicity stuff. And also, on top of that, you know, I requested bookmarks and postcards and all that sort of stuff, and I requested to have as many as they could afford in my marketing budget shipped to me. And honestly, for The Gift of Failure I’m just now finally running out of postcards, and I use a lot of those postcards still in my marketing. And they also have been in communication since then—been really appreciative of how much I invest in the publicity. But I will say, I knew—I knew when I was old news and that they were no longer really going to invest in my publicity—when the next big thing, the next big book that was coming out from Harper with this publicist, when I started accidentally getting that author’s emails about, you know—it was a total mistake, and it was very funny—but I’m like, oh, yeah, I see, I’m done now. This is—they’re on to the next book. Which was fine. But again—and we’ve said this a million times—no one can market you better than you can market you. So that was fine with me, and I also knew that that would be a big role for me with this book. But, yeah, the marketing budget is very much factored in when you look at how much they’re willing to spend on you.Sarina BowenYeah. So we should say a couple more things about [unintelligible]. One is, everybody’s first statement from the publisher—whether that comes quarterly, semi-annually, or annually—is always a little bit rattling, because they’re hard to read. They just are. Like, I don’t know any publisher who has, you know, beautiful, easy-to-read statements. And so the befuddlement one can have on there is, you know, not to be underweighted. But also, if you—so, we have this double-edged sword. Like, we want a big advance because it reduces our risk, and it increases the publisher’s risk, so they’re going to invest in it. But, as you said before, then if you don’t perform—like, if you dramatically underperform your advance—and this happens in publishing all the time—it will be maybe a little bit harder for you to sell the next book, and maybe you have to switch publishers, because maybe idea number two is really fantastic and more saleable. Then you have to find somebody with a clean slate—like, that they see the value of your new idea. They’re not intimidated by the fact that your first book didn’t sell a kajillion copies. And, you know, that editor doesn’t have, like, a wound from having, you know, failed the first time. So these things happen.Jess LaheyBecause—keeping in mind that that editor has to go, you know—any editor that wants to acquire your book has to go before, you know, their peers, their colleagues, and say, “I really want to buy this book, and here’s how much I think it’s worth, and there’s going to be an auction.” And then, you know, I could imagine that an editor might feel like a bit of a doofus if their book doesn’t perform the way they’ve predicted in front of that room of their colleagues.Sarina BowenBecause they would. You know, it’s just not fair for them to come back and say, “Yeah, we’ll give you the same schlubby advance on the second one.” So, so there’s emotions on either side of this. And one thing about earning out that can happen is that sometimes, if you have a two-book deal, you will have a clause in your contract that calls for joint accounting between those two books. And this is a clause that I always ask to be taken out, because that means if you didn’t earn out—if you earned out the first book but not the second one—then they’re going to hold on to your royalties until you’ve earned out enough money to cover both advances. And that’s obviously unfavorable to the author.Jess LaheyYeah, you also reminded me that there were some things that happened with The Gift of Failure, where, for example, I narrated my audiobook. And I think—I think that my flat fee for narrating that audiobook went against my advance.Sarina BowenAdvance. Mmhmm.Jess LaheyYeah, I didn’t get a check, like a flat-out check for that. It went against my advance. And I think the same for my Spanish edition. I think that because the Spanish edition was also part of Harper—it’s Harper Español—that that went against my advance as well, as opposed to, you know, “Here’s another chunk of money for the Spanish edition.”Sarina BowenWell, that was actually a really unusual scenario for you, because you sold North American rights generally on this book, right?Jess LaheyYeah. Mmhmm.Sarina BowenIn English. You sold English only? Or World English? That would mean that…Jess LaheyActually, I didn’t sell World English. It was just North American, because there’s the different North American short books, and there’s—Sarina BowenRight. Okay.Jess Lahey—the British version.Sarina BowenSo North American rights means that your advance really only covers those books that sell in the U.S. and Canada and territories of the U.S.—and sometimes the Philippines, for reasons that nobody has ever explained to me. But if you’d sold world rights instead, you would have the entire world to help you pay down that advance and then start earning royalties. And I did have a moment last year where I asked my agent, like, “Why didn’t we sell world rights on this book?” Because now we’re scrambling to place the book with a U.K. editor. And she said—and it made so much sense—she said, “Because if the U.K. branch of your publisher is not fired up about the book and is not motivated, then we won’t get the placement you want anyway.”Jess LaheyGot it!Sarina BowenLike, it won’t work. And of course, that made lots of sense—like, they’re busy acquiring titles that they feel they can sell in the U.K. to their audience, and they know best about that. So I needed to be reminded why that is. But, yeah—so lots of things can go against our advances. And the point of today’s discussion was to make sure that you understand that there’s an emotional load for the way that we do these things. And your publisher might be very happy with you even if you didn’t earn out your advance.Jess LaheyI can tell you, though, where The Gift of Failure is concerned—I have earned out in one spot, and that is China. In China, I have earned—not only did I earn out, they decided to renew my contract early because they were so pleased with sales there. So that’s good. I do get small royalty checks for my Chinese version, so yay!Sarina Bowen(Laughing)Jess LaheyGiddy up.Sarina BowenGiddy up.Jess LaheyAll right, have we covered everything we want to cover on this topic?Sarina BowenWe have, and we hope that our listeners are out there getting the best advances they can and then not worrying about them too much.Jess LaheyExcellent. I like that answer. And until next time, everyone, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.NarratorThe Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

You kids I can’t even with Catherine Newman right now because I am a Wreck and a Sandwich myself at the moment but wow, she’s a good writer, so honest it’s like there’s no skull between her mind and the readers. We talk about what it means to use yourself and your world in your fiction and what it’s meant to Catherine to play as big as she possibly can and go bigger and deeper with every book.We ALSO talk about Catherine’s totally granular technique for planning and tracking and keeping her eye on the ball in every chapter while still pulling in all the other things while making sure that if it’s Friday night a teacher character doesn’t get up and go to teach the next morning and the blackberries never ripen in April, and let me tell you that I just went back and listened to that now and I am about to implement it because it’s brilliant.Ok, time to let you listen (although links to what Catherine and I are reading and loving are below). ALSO…Truth? We wanted to tuck the transcript away behind a paywall, but it turns out we can’t do that and still give you the episode… so, here it is. But we have to pay someone to make a good one, that you can read. And we still have to pay ourselves and all our people. BUT LOOK YOU GET ALL OF US. We’re not just one writer, we’re a whole bunch—a Groupstack, and yes we coined the term, and you get a lot of bang for your subscription. So, if you could kick in, we’d cheer.Please don’t make us try to sell you Quince clothing or gambling sites to support the pod.#AmReadingCatherine: A Truce That Is Not Peace by Miriam ToewsKJ: EPISODE TRANSCRIPTKJ Dell’AntoniaIt’s fall, y’all, and there’s got to be a T-shirt that says that, right? So it’s, you know, fresh notebooks, sharpened pencils, sharpened sense of ambition, excitement after the languid summer days, and, of course, the glory that is decorative gourd season. You can say that with all the swears that you like, but I’m not going to hear “falling leaves” and “Halloween,” which means it’s time for smoky, eerie, witchy reads, and I have just the thing for you—Playing the Witch Card. Expect a woman starting over again after her marriage collapses, hampered by her magic-obsessed daughter, her flaky mother, her enchanted ex, and a powerful witch who’s thrilled that she’s back in town—and not for a good reason. To keep her family together, Flair has to embrace the hereditary magic that’s done nothing but ruin her life in the past and make it her own. I was inspired by what I see as the real magic of tarot cards, which play a huge role in this book—and tea leaves and palm reading, and honestly, every form of oracle. They’re here to help us see and understand our own stories, which is pretty much what Flair figures out. And as someone for whom stories are everything, I love that. You can buy Playing the Witch Card everywhere, and I hope you will do exactly that—and love it too.Multiple SpeakersIs it recording? Now it’s recording, yay. Go ahead. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone. I don’t remember what I’m supposed to be doing. All right, let’s start over. Awkward pause. I’m going to rustle some papers. Okay, now—one, two, three.KJ Dell’AntoniaHey, kids, it’s KJ, and this is the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast—the place where we help you play big in your writing life, love the process, and finish what matters. Today on the pod, I’m talking with Catherine Newman. She is the author most recently of We All Want Impossible Things and Sandwich, and also, earlier in her career, Waiting for Birdy and Catastrophic Happiness, as well as two fabulous “how to be a person in the world” books for kids that, honestly, I think we could all benefit from. I’m considering just, you know, sending out copies. They are How to Be a Person and What Can I Say?—that one’s really useful. Okay, so now, just out, she has Wreck—which kind of comes after Sandwich, but you could read them separately. They’re both small, intense books. Wreck, like all of Catherine’s work, is inevitably about exactly what I just said—it’s how to be a person in the world. Which—I didn’t actually ask Catherine this; I’m recording my intro for y’all after talking to her—but she would not tell you she knows how to be a person in the world. But she is so fantastic about the part where we’re all figuring it out, and being aware that we’re all figuring it out. And that’s what all of her books are about. In the interview, which you’re going to love, she calls herself the queen of the slight plot element, which made me laugh really hard and also made me realize that I think Catherine Newman is the modern Anne Tyler. So tell me what you think in the comments on the show notes—which you’d better be getting. They are at...there’s no hashtag in our name—AmWritingPodcast.com—or search anywhere they will have the books that Catherine mentions, and also all of your chances to do all of the things, like have your First Page appear in a Booklab episode. Talk to us. Get in there. Tell us what you’re thinking about writing. Write along with us. Really just—just all the community stuff that we all so desperately want. Okay, here comes my interview with Catherine. I know—gosh, it was so fun to talk to you. You guys are going to love it. Catherine Newman, welcome to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast, where you’ve been at least once, maybe twice—I need to go and look. It’s so fun to have you back. I remember us walking in the woods before you had finished We All Want Impossible Things in 2021.Catherine NewmanI remember it too.KJ Dell’AntoniaWhich, actually, for three books, is not that long ago.Catherine NewmanHey, that’s true. I know... I remember your dog.KJ Dell’AntoniaHe’s here somewhere.Catherine NewmanYou had a young dog with you. It was the best. And you—you said so many things that I’ve thought about so much on that walk. But I don’t want to derail the thing you want to talk about.KJ Dell’AntoniaBut, but same—it was a great walk. We must do it again. All right, meanwhile—okay, so I already described in the introduction all the things you’ve ever written in the past and raved about you, so don’t—don’t worry about that. You’ve been—sorry you don’t get to hear the petting. But the question is, tell us—tell us a little bit about Wreck.Catherine NewmanYeah, so Wreck...KJ Dell’AntoniaI know, I know, it’s painful. Elevator pitch or whatever you want to say, because seriously, I did just tell everyone about them in the intro.Catherine NewmanI really need an elevator pitch. I feel like We All Want Impossible Things was like a woman whose best friend was dying while she, like, slept with everybody.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, it was joyful.Catherine NewmanThat was easy.KJ Dell’AntoniaAlso sad.Catherine NewmanSandwich was like Cape Cod for a week, reproductive mayhem, sandwich generation. Wreck is so weird because there’s these two sort of very slight plot elements. So it’s, you know, a woman in her mid-50s living in a house with her husband of many years, her daughter, who’s between college and grad school, and her dad, who was fairly recently widowed and in his 90s. And that’s mostly what the book is, but the little plots are that she has a rash—she notices that she has a rash—and it inaugurates this kind of diagnostic tornado. A slow and quiet tornado, but a tornado nonetheless, where she has to see a billion doctors. She has to constantly check her patient portal to see if she’s dying or not, and anyone who’s had—who’s been anything but healthy in the last 10 years will understand the patient portal.KJ Dell’AntoniaYes, I love the checker. I checked a patient portal from a hockey-rink parking lot, and that’s a mistake, just FYI.Catherine NewmanJust don’t...KJ Dell’AntoniaTo anyone considering it, don’t do it on a Friday night. Don’t do that.Catherine NewmanJust don’t even look. And then the other plot point is that there’s an accident—there’s a collision between a car and a train—and a schoolmate of her kids, like someone they went to high school with, is killed in this accident. And she becomes kind of weirdly obsessed with the accident. She looks at it online all the time. She stalks everyone’s...KJ Dell’AntoniaWhich so tracks for the character that you have created.Catherine NewmanDoesn’t it? And that’s it. And so the book sort of is those things unfolding in this parallel way—these uncertain things.KJ Dell’AntoniaSo when you wrote it, what—what was your intention for this? What did you want Wreck to be in your career and for your readers?Catherine NewmanWhat? It’s so funny to be asked questions about my career. I don’t know what I wanted it to be in my career, but maybe while I’m talking to you, I’ll figure that out.KJ Dell’AntoniaOkay.Catherine NewmanOr you can tell me. But for my readers—I do think we’re in this funny place where some of us are hungry to read about the experiences of other menopausal women who are taking care of aging parents, whose nests are emptying, who are in long marriages, who are, you know, doing the things of this age, including tracking weird illnesses. So I guess that—you know, I think, I feel like the thing that I love about writing—one of the things—is when people say to me, like, “Oh yeah, I feel the same way about that,” or they write me and they’re like, “Oh, I read this, and I felt so relieved that I wasn’t alone.” And I guess I have a lot of that hope—you know, that it speaks to someone, or someone’s been in their portal rummaging around and finding out horrible things about their health and Googling them. Like, that’s not a small part of the population who’s probably doing that. So I guess just that—you know, the handout, the “I’m with you on this” vibe.KJ Dell’AntoniaSo what do you love most about it?Catherine Newman(Laughing) I mean, that’s a funny and embarrassing question. I... you know, the father character is based very closely on my own father. Many of the things he says are verbatim lifted from conversations and texts with my dad. And I just love that character so much. I think he’s so funny and has this kind of deep wisdom. I mean, Wreck plays him for laughs a little bit, but he offers so much to her. He’s still this really profound caretaking force in her life, even though he himself, you know, is failing in different ways. So I guess that’s what I like.KJ Dell’AntoniaHow does your dad feel about you taking his stuff?Catherine NewmanHe loved this book.KJ Dell’AntoniaI love this!Catherine NewmanHe has not felt that way always about the way I represent him. I represent him in Sandwich in similar ways, and Sandwich—there were just particular things that bugged him. He loved the book overall but didn’t love his character. I think in this book, maybe because there’s so much of his character, that it gets to be a very well-rounded kind of person, and also somebody whose opinion it’s obvious the other characters respect. So he really loved it, which was, like, everything to me, you know?KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, oh, wow. I’d give a lot for that. That’s—that’s wonderful. I would—it’s... although all my dad ever says is, “Why don’t you—you only write about mothers? You never write...” I’m like, well, I don’t know if you read some of the mothers. You’re kind of lucky. You’re doing okay. I don’t know why—you guys were great. You should have been better fodder for affection, and then I would... yeah. All right. So, okay, so that’s what you love about it. What was the hardest about this?Catherine NewmanIt’s funny—it’s a little hard to talk about without spoilers, but, um, there’s a difficult part of the plot that involves Rocky’s son, who works for a consulting firm in New York, where she really questions his values, questions the decision to do that kind of work.KJ Dell’AntoniaThat would stun me, frankly.Catherine NewmanHowever, he knows a lot about that kind of work, and talked to me a ton about it for the book—like, went on a million walks with me and let me pick his brain about it. And I really just found it so hard to write about this kind of painful conflict between Rocky and her son. I just found it really hard. Yeah...KJ Dell’AntoniaObviously, yeah, that’s actually what you did, wasn’t it?Catherine NewmanI can imagine... that’s it. I imagined it. And honestly, my husband could hardly stand to read it. He found it so devastating. Just—and it’s, as you know, it’s not massive conflict. It’s like...KJ Dell’AntoniaBut it is. It’s...Catherine NewmanBut it is. YepKJ Dell’AntoniaI mean, it’s, you know—Catherine NewmanYep.KJ Dell’AntoniaIt’s it—goes back to Alex Keaton, right? [Unintelligible] Both of us, yeah, yeah, no, I get it. It’s a really—and by writing it, even if it’s not autobiographical, which it’s not, it’s fiction, you are saying something about some compatriots, you know, some other—you’re really, you’re—you’re putting—you’re putting a stake in the ground, which I think has always been pretty obvious for anyone who knows you or has read you, but maybe you had not verbalized even in a fictional form.Catherine NewmanHmm, maybe.KJ Dell’AntoniaCould feel judgmental because—it’s judgmental (whispered). But it’s values. That’s what values do. A value that doesn’t judge anyone isn’t a value, even if you don’t want to judge people. But I think it’s kind of true, like...Catherine NewmanYeah, yeah.KJ Dell’AntoniaYou can also be open. But, I mean, that’s—I don’t know if, if you don’t offer that up, then we’re all just sitting here going, “Oh, it’s fine. It’s all...”Catherine NewmanEverything’s fine.KJ Dell’AntoniaEverything’s fine, it’s fine. That’s a joke in our house, because we had this Spanish exchange student, and he would always say, “Oh, it’s fine,” when—and it—what that meant was, it wasn’t.Catherine NewmanOh no, it wasn’t fine.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, no... that’s what it means when we say, “It’s fine.”Catherine NewmanOh my God, KJ.KJ Dell’AntoniaAll right, so this kind of gets to, I think, my next question, which—which is, what about this was, um, bigger for you? Was a bigger leap to take in your writing?Catherine NewmanIt’s like, you know, I think it’s just a little more plot in a novel than I’ve ever managed. Even though, you know—don’t laugh because there’s not a ton of plot. But nonetheless, there were sort of these two vectors of significant—I thought—dramatic contention that I had to manage in the writing, and—and I was anxious about it. Like, I—I like a quiet story that’s not like—is too plot-driven. But anyway, so that is—it was, you know, I definitely plotted it a little more actively before I wrote it, like I wanted to make sure that these plots were unfolding in the timeframe I wanted them to unfold in.KJ Dell’AntoniaAnd did that present some new, like, “Oops, I did this too fast, oops...” just that you hadn’t really had to...?Catherine NewmanNo, because I plotted it. It actually didn’t, but it just presented—before I started writing, I had the challenge of, you know, practically trying to graph these two plots to see where they would intersect, and—and the sort of ways that the two plots together create this kind of character arc for Rocky, the main character. And so I was—I just, like—I usually, I have this way that I plot stuff, and it’s kind of based on that book that I use because of you, which is like, you know, Put On Your Pants—or Take Off Your Pants, or, you know, the book...KJ Dell’AntoniaOh yeah, oh yeah.Catherine NewmanAnd—and I, so I do this thing where I make a—I write down the numbers 1 to 25, and I print that. I print a piece of paper that has the numbers 1 through 25 in type font. I don’t know why I don’t just hand-write the whole thing. That—and I guess the thought’s how many chapters it’s going to be, but it’s never quite right. And then I fill in what I know. So I put in everything I know, and guess where it’s going to go in terms of the—what are the things? What’s it called when it’s like a thing...?KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, the... the turning point or the...Catherine NewmanOr the beat...KJ Dell’AntoniaOr the moment of last resolve? Yeah, the beat!Catherine NewmanYeah.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah.Catherine NewmanSo I fill in everything, like, I know, you know. I have a sense of how it’s going to open. I have a sense of the different elements of the two plots, and I put them in this weird numbered-chapter thing. And usually—like, usually as if I’ve written so many books—but with the other two novels, I did that a little willy-nilly, and it was fine. Like, I sat down and wrote the books beginning to end without all of it totally sorted in terms of where everything would go, and that was fine. This book, I really had to understand where it was all going to go, so I had to just be sure that all of the most important plot points were plotted in that 1-through-25.KJ Dell’AntoniaDo you? I mean, you have a lot of moving emotional pieces too. Asking for a friend—how do you make sure that those are all resolved? Or do you? Or does it just happen?Catherine NewmanThat’s a really good question. I hope they’re resolved, or if they’re not, that that’s intentional, by the way. Yeah, I—I’m just thinking about, like, the different relationships. You know, most of what the book is, is like Rocky’s relationships with the people she loves—like, that is sort of the heart of the book. And then her grappling with herself, both physically and psychologically. I think I have a sense of those. Those are kind of included in those. I have, like, a—in that 1-through-25— sorry if this is too granular.KJ Dell’AntoniaNo, I love it.Catherine NewmanIn the 1-through-25, I have the plot thing that’s like, “Rocky reads her biopsy results,” or, you know, whatever the thing is. And then I have this other column that’s like, the other things that need to happen in that chapter, if that’s what’s happening in the chapter. And that’s where I keep information about stuff that’s like, “Willa forgives her,” you know—whatever other thing needs to happen. So I sort of track the plot, and then I—and I also have a little other column that’s just like, seasonal details. And that I don’t fill out super carefully, but, like, because this book moves from essentially Labor Day to New Year’s, I—I just tracked a little before I started writing, like, around when in that season things were going to be happening, you know, that’s Halloween, it’s Thanksgiving, it’s the winter holidays, New Year’s, and then it’s going to be, like, the leaves are turning, the blackberries that, you know?KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, no, it’s so hard. Is it Tuesday? Like...?Catherine NewmanYeah (laughing).KJ Dell’AntoniaDang it. Oh, wait—if its four days from the first day, and the first day was a Thursday, that means its Sunday, and Sundays do have a particular rhythm on their own. And yeah, no, it’s so hard.Catherine NewmanIt’s really hard, although that part’s my favorite part, probably—besides, I love dialogue. But I love—I keep a lot of notes that are really dull on their own about, like, the weather and the landscape, just in general. I don’t even know what I’m going to use them for. I just keep a ton of notes about the seasons. And I love pilfering stuff for fiction from them because it’s just like—it’s going to be fairly accurate. Like, I will have dated it. I’ll have a fairly strong sense of whether that will work or not.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, you’re not going to put the blackberries in April.Catherine NewmanAnd I’m not going to put the blackberries in April, and I have that cheater feeling of chunking in something I’ve already kind of written down, and then your word count goes up by, like, 300 words.KJ Dell’AntoniaYou’re like, hey... [Unintelligible].Catherine NewmanYeah, exactly.KJ Dell’AntoniaOh my gosh, I love this. All right, well, one last question, and that is—what have you read recently where you felt like the writer was really, you know, playing big, doing their very max?Catherine NewmanYeah, I just read—well, I just got it in the mail, although my kitten—I want to show you, she has, like...KJ Dell’AntoniaShe had some fun with it...Catherine NewmanChewed up every corner.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah.Catherine NewmanSo this book is A Truce That Is Not Peace by Miriam Toews. And she is a very, very favorite writer of mine. She wrote the novel All My Puny Sorrows that I always press on everybody, because it’s like the perfect funny, sad novel. This book I got to blurb, so I read it a while ago, and it just came—and I think it just came out maybe this week, I’m not sure. It’s so incredibly good. It’s really strange—someone—she’s doing some conference in Mexico, and she has to write an answer to the question, “Why do I write?”KJ Dell’AntoniaOkay.Catherine NewmanAnd she keeps starting and stopping, and it’s so—it’s nonfiction. I mean, it’s just authentically this, and she includes, like, letters to her sister. Her sister killed herself some number of years ago, and that’s the event that All My Puny Sorrows—which is a novel—is based on. But this, I am under the impression that’s the first time she’s written about it...KJ Dell’AntoniaIn a nonfiction way—yeah.Catherine NewmanIn a nonfiction way. And it is just—I did that thing, you know, when a book is so good? I picked it up because I knew I was going to talk to you about it, and then I read it for, like, an hour.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, no, I get it.Catherine NewmanEven though I have, like, already read it. It’s so moving and beautiful and so—like, she’s just struggling in this, like, really profound way to process loss and to understand herself and what she’s created in the world. And it’s so good.KJ Dell’AntoniaIt sounds huge, and I would—yeah, I’m going to pick it up. I have a funny story about All My Puny Sorrows, which is that I took it to Spain while I was waiting for one of those patient-portal things. I had cancer at the time, and that’s—the character of the sister who wanted to kill herself made me so angry that I had to hide—not only did I have to leave the book behind, I had to hide it in the hotel so it would not juju me. I obviously survived, because this was, I think, seven or eight years ago. But I couldn’t—like, I just—it was... but that actually speaks to the power of the book.Catherine NewmanInteresting... yeah.KJ Dell’AntoniaIt’s not that it wasn’t an amazing book. It was that I literally couldn’t handle the particular, you know, mental illness that the sister was struggling with when I, you know, did not really want to die. Did not want to die, yeah. So I...Catherine NewmanThat’s amazing... yeah.KJ Dell’AntoniaShe’s a really powerful writer.Catherine NewmanThat—that is a really powerful story. Wait, were you going to share with me a book? Or it doesn’t work that way?KJ Dell’AntoniaWell, it doesn’t...Catherine NewmanKJ looks around...KJ Dell’AntoniaBecause I did not prepare.Catherine NewmanWhat are you writing, KJ? What are you working on? What’s happening?KJ Dell’AntoniaAll right, we’re going to call this as an episode.Catherine Newman(Laughing)KJ Dell’AntoniaBecause it was excellent, and then I’m going to answer Catherine’s question, which all of you listeners kind of vaguely know. Let’s just say I’m trying to play big. All right, so this is me ending with: thank you so much, Catherine Newman, for joining me on the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast.Catherine NewmanThank you, KJ; it was a pleasure, as always.KJ Dell’AntoniaAnd for all you listeners, we’re still saying it—keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.NarratorThe Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.Subscribe to back the show that backs your writing life This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe