#AmWriting

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit amwriting.substack.comJess Lahey is the OG host of the #amwriting podcast and the author of The Gift of Failure and The Addiction Inoculation. She’s a teacher, a speaker, and a very accomplished journalist who writes for The Atlantic, The Washington Post and other media outlets.Now she’s writing a novel.Jess has been working on this novel, on and off, for fifteen years, and recently put it through my Blueprint for a Book process — a method of inquiry for getting your book out of your head and onto the page. When I read her Blueprint, I had one overwhelming reaction: she was holding back.The story she wants to tell is about memory and identity and family and the enormous weight of other people’s expectations. But on the page, it felt careful, contained, and buttoned up.When I said this to Jess, she immediately knew what I was seeing. She had written the Blueprint the way she writes nonfiction: carefully. She is used to getting things right, backing things up, not overstating the case. And whenever she had written something that felt too emotional or too big, she’d cut it.What was fascinating was that when we stopped talking about the Blueprint and Jess started talking about the actual kids she has taught over the years, all that carefulness disappeared. She was passionate and emotional and absolutely certain about what mattered to her.I thought: There it is. That’s what’s missing from the page.This is one of the strange things about becoming good at something. The skills that have served you well can become the skills you hide behind. Jess knows how to be careful. That’s part of what makes her such a good nonfiction writer. But this book is asking something different of her.At one point, she told me she was afraid that if she really let herself go, she might go over the edge and write something overblown or overwrought. I told her I didn’t think she could go over the edge if I paid her a million dollars!Where have you decided something is too emotional, too strange, too ambitious, too earnest, too much—and pulled back?Maybe it is too much. But you don’t actually know that yet.You can always pull back in revision. First, you have to let yourself go far enough to find out where the edge really is.Want to try the Blueprint on your own book?You can buy Blueprint for a Book here, or take my $19 Blueprint for a Book video course, which includes the full text of the book plus 14 video lessons that walk you through the process.Want to check out the full Hot Seat Coaching session and get access to Jess Lahey’s blueprint and Jennie’s editorial notes? Become a paid subscriber below.#amwriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

I want to take you inside my favorite yoga studio in Santa Barbara. It’s called Yoga Soup, and it’s a giant, grounding mix of movement, actual nutrient-dense soup in a crockpot, fresh fruit from local trees, and community.My husband Rob and I practice there a few times a week, and one of our favorite instructors—who is also a middle school English teacher—starts every class by reading a poem. She weaves its themes throughout our practice and reads it again at the end.Now, I’ll be honest with you: these classes are often equal parts healing and deeply unsettling for me. Why? Because I’m in there without a notebook or phone, frantically trying to memorize brilliant lines so I don’t lose them!A few weeks ago, she read a poem by Mary Oliver called “Today” from her 2012 collection A Thousand Mornings. One line hit me like a bolt of lightning:“Today I’m flying low, and I’m not saying a word. / I’m letting all the voodoos of ambition sleep.”I spent the rest of the class scrambling to hold onto that concept because the “voodoos of ambition” are my constant companions. They’re the noisy, bossy, pushy engine behind everything I make, write, and build. They drive the desire to “play big.” And if you’re listening to this podcast, I bet your voodoos are pretty loud, too.But as I wrestled with Mary Oliver’s words, a new thought took root: What would happen if we actually let those voodoos take a day off?In this Write Big session, I’m reflecting on:* The double-edged sword of high ambition and why we need energy to drive big work.* Why scrambling to capture every thought is just another “voodoo” in disguise.* How giving your ambition a rest—letting it sink into child’s pose—is actually what allows it to wake up re-energized and full of life.Writing big requires big energy, but it also requires rest. This week, I’m offering you a permission slip to fly low, be quiet as a feather, and let your ambition sleep for a little while.Until next time, stop playing small and write like it matters!#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Books Mentioned* A Thousand Mornings by Mary OliverTranscriptHi, I’m Jennie Nash, and you’re listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. This is a Write Big session, where I’m bringing you short episodes about the mindset shifts that help you stop playing small and write like it matters.Today, I’m talking about ambition, and specifically I’m talking about some thoughts on the poet Mary Oliver and desire And I want to tell you a story about my yoga studio and a particular yoga teacher that I adore. So my yoga studio in Santa Barbara, California, is called Yoga Soup, and what its name implies is that there’s all different kinds of things that happen in this space.There’s all different kinds of yoga and all different kinds of teachers. It’s a giant mix of different kinds of ways of doing yoga, and [00:01:00] there’s also actual soup. In the front room of the studio, there are couches and a coffee table and benches, and there’s a Crockpot of soup. It’s made by a local soup kitchen that makes just killer local nutrient-dense soup.And oftentimes there’s bread from the local bakery, and you can put $5 or $10 in the tip jar and sit down and have a bowl of warm soup, even on a warm day, which we often have here in Santa Barbara. There also tends to be bowls of things from the farmers market or from people’s trees. So there might be oranges or carrots or strawberries or something there that you can have.And one of my practices is I love to come out of yoga class and sit down and have a carrot. It always makes me feel rooted in a very specific and physical way and grounded. So that’s the vibe of my yoga studio. And I practice yoga with my husband. It’s a thing that we do together, that we love to do together, and we try to do two or [00:02:00] three times a week.Rob actually goes to yoga more than I do, and he is really good at it, and he’s really strong. And I know we’re not supposed to compare, but I do. But regardless, I love going with him and practicing alongside of him. And one of our favorite teachers is also a middle school English teacher. And at the start of every one of her yoga classes, she reads a poem, and then she weaves the lessons of that poem throughout the yoga practice.So while you’re doing a pose or transitioning from one pose to another, or in your resting pose, she’ll talk about words or phrases or ideas from the poem, and then she usually reads it again at the end. And I, of course, love this so much because words and poems and weaving them all into movement, it just feels so healing and powerful, and I just adore it.And I’m not alone. Her classes are always packed with all different kinds of people, and you have to get there early, and you have to bring your patience [00:03:00] because there’s so many people clamoring for this specific kind of experience. But oftentimes this class is also really hard for me because the teacher will say something in the middle that I wanna remember, and I’m in there without paper and I’m without my phone, and I feel sort of quite naked ‘cause I’m like, “I gotta write this down.I gotta remember what she said,” because I’m not trusting that she’ll remember what she said if I went up to her after class and said, “What was it that you said about that thing?” And I’m not sure that I will remember correctly. And so I kind of spend the whole class in this panic about remembering whatever it was that she said.I certainly am not gonna not try to remember. That’s just not in my DNA. So I often have somewhat unsettling experiences in this class as well. And a few weeks ago, the instructor shared a Mary Oliver poem, and I happen to know that Mary Oliver is one of her favorite poets. She often [00:04:00] reads things from her.And I’ve read a lot of Mary Oliver, and I recognize a lot of the poems. But on this one day, this poem that she read, I had never heard of, and I couldn’t believe I’d never heard of it because it just blew my mind. I found out after class, my Googling told me that this poem is from the book A Thousand Mornings, which was published in 2012, and the poem is called Today Today I’m flying low, and I’m not saying a word.I’m letting all the voodoos of ambition sleep. The world goes on as it must, the bees in the garden rumbling a little, the fish leaping, the gnats getting eaten, and so forth. But I’m taking the day off, quiet as a feather. I hardly move, though really I’m traveling a terrific distance. Stillness, one of the doors into the temple.So there I am in yoga, scrambling to remember the line, letting all the voodoosof ambition sleep. Because that [00:05:00] line, that concept, I was just like, “What? The voodoos?” I mean, trying to remember the line of a poem while doing yoga is one of those voodoos. The voodoos of ambition are all up in my brain, and they’re all over my body and my gut.They just are my constant companion. And the second I heard that line, I was like, “Ugh, yes, I love the voodoos of ambition.” They’re what drive me and propel me and keep me coming up with ideas and things I wanna write and make and do. They are what is the engine of writing big and playing big. And there’s so much that I wanna make and write and do in the world.And I feel like the voodoos of ambition get it. They’re dancing, and they’re cheering and propelling me on. But of course, I also find them hard to deal with because you know, the voodoos are so noisy. They’re so bossy. They’re so pushy and voodooy. And as soon as I heard that [00:06:00] poem, and as soon as I got home and studied it and looked at it again, I thought, “Gosh, what would it be like to not say a word and let the voodoos of ambition sleep?”I don’t know, and I don’t know if I want to know. Flying low is not my natural way of being in the world. And when I thought about it, though, I thought, “You know, I bet those voodoos get tired.” And I imagine that they would love some time off, and that that would be for them like time to do yoga and lay down in child’s pose and just feel the support of the earth.And when I imagined that, I imagined that that sleep would make those voodoos feel full of energy and alive when they got up to do their work again. And so I thought, “Okay, I’m gonna practice this, that tomorrow maybe I’ll just take a day off and try to be quiet as a feather.” And my reflection for you this week is to remember that writing [00:07:00] big, playing big, trying to do big things in the world absolutely requires some big energy and some up energy, and it requires some voodoos of ambition for sure.But there’s also a place in this work of letting those voodoos have a little rest and letting them re-energize and letting them come back to life when they’re ready. I thought it was a good thing for us all just to remember. Until next time, stop playing small and write like it matters.The hashtag amwriting podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output because everyone deserves to be paid for their work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

You’ll get a regular Write Big episode tomorrow!Hi!As you may know, after ten years of #amwriting, KJ, Jess and Sarina are moving on to other endeavors and have handed the reins of the podcast to me. I’m honored—and very excited—to carry it forward.For the past nine months, I’ve been trying things, listening to what resonates with you, and weighing my own energy and my options for what #amwriting could become.And I’ve landed on a new plan.The goal is to keep the spirit of what #amwriting has always done—help writers get their best work done—and to offer more ways to see your own work more clearly.This is one of the hardest things about being a writer. Is this working? What’s not working? Is the problem on the page—or in the way I’m thinking about the book? Am I solving the right problem? What should I do next?There is endless writing advice out there. What I want #amwriting to give you is something different: the chance to listen to writers work through real problems, hear the thinking behind the solutions, and get better at seeing and solving problems in your own work.And this is work I know how to do. I’ve trained more than 400 book coaches and spent years developing frameworks for coaching writers through the decisions, problems, and stuck places that come up as they make books. That means I also have a deep bench of skilled Author Accelerator certified book coaches I can bring into #amwriting.I think that puts me in a unique position to make a different kind of writing podcast—one built around showing you what good coaching looks like in action and helping you become better at thinking through your own work.You’ll continue to get free #amwriting episodes every week, including Write Big, my episodes about what it takes to do your best work and keep doing it; and Margin Notes, short episodes that take a close look at a particular question, problem, or moment in the writing life. That is where I will often have guests join me.And, I’ve started writing the Substack posts each week as mini lessons for those who want to read rather than listen. Before, they were generic summaries and no one wants to read that. But a big part of this new #amwriting is now going to happen for paid subscribers.Why I’m asking you to pay $8/monthBookLab and Hot Seat Coaching take real time, effort, and energy to produce. They involve reviewing work, preparing for coaching conversations, bringing in the right coaches and guests, recording, editing, and producing the episodes.I love doing this work. I want to do more of it. And I need the support of paid subscribers to make it sustainable.So I’m making BookLab and Hot Seat Coaching part of the paid #amwriting membership.If you want to get better at seeing your own work clearly, making stronger writing decisions, and knowing what to do when you get stuck, I’m asking you to support this work by becoming a paid subscriber. It’s $8/month.For $8/month, here’s what you get* All the regular weekly #amwriting episodes, including Write Big and Margin Notes.* BookLAB — We take apart real submissions—first pages, book jackets, query letters, and more—to see what’s working, what’s not, and why. The more you learn to see in someone else’s work, the more you can see in your own. I plan to share a BookLAB episode each month.* Hot Seat Coaching — Listen as real writers work through real writing challenges with me and Author Accelerator certified book coaches. You’ll hear not just what they decide to do, but the thinking that gets them there—so you can get better at working through your own challenges.* The complete #amwriting archive — Ten years of conversations about virtually every stage of the writing life, organized by topic so when you hit a problem, you can find the conversations that can help. (This will take us a little while to organize but we’re already working on it!)If you want to do more than listen, you can come further into the work.Annual — $80/yearAnnual subscribers get everything in the $8/month membership for a more affordable price, plus:* Attend our monthly BookLABs live on Zoom. Join us each month as we work on writing in real time. Raise your hand to share your first pages, book jackets, query letters, and other work for possible coaching and feedback* BookLABs will happen on zoom. We’ll email links out before each episode. Times of these sessions will vary but the next three will be: * Thursday, Oct. 15 at 9 am PT* Thursday, Nov. 19 at 9 am PT* Thursday, Dec. 17 at 9 am PT* Get private recordings as I do a last-pass read-through of my forthcoming book, Write Big: 7 Questions That Will Change Your Writing Forever. I’ll read the book and decide what to change or tweak as I go, sharing the process with annual subscribers.For writers who want even more access and coaching:The #amwriting Writers’ Room — $180/yearGet in the room where we do the work.Writers’ Room members get everything in Annual, plus invitations to join me and Author Accelerator certified book coaches for more intimate coaching experiences throughout the year, including Blueprint challenges for starting and revising a book.We’re kicking off the Writers’ Room with something I’m especially excited about: the very first Write Big Coaching Sessions.This will be a five-week experience where we’ll work through the seven questions at the heart of my forthcoming book, Write Big: 7 Questions That Will Change Your Writing Forever.* Before each call, you’ll receive a private audio episode of me reading a chapter. * The live calls (Pacific Time) are:* October 19 — 8:00 a.m.* October 21 — 4:30 p.m.* October 26 — 8:00 a.m.* October 28 — 4:30 p.m.* November 2 — 8:00 a.m.* November 4 — 4:30 p.m.* November 9 — 8:00 a.m.* November 11 — 4:30 p.m.* Then we’ll come together on Zoom to write, talk, and work with the questions. * We’ll have a private Slack channel throughout the five weeks for questions and conversation, and a community manager who will help direct the conversation and connections. We’ll also post recordings there, so it’s okay if you need to miss some of the live calls.You’ll be part of the very first cohort to experience the book this way. You’ll help me choose the book jacket, and I’ll include your name in the acknowledgments of the finished book.The idea is to use these seven questions to look closely at your own writing and writing life: what you want, what you know, what’s getting in your way, and what you want to do next.So you can decide how far you want to come into the new #amwriting:* Keep listening for free.* Get better at seeing and solving writing problems for $8/month.* Bring your own work into the conversation for $80/year.* Get in the room and get coached for $180/year.I’m really excited about what we’re building next—and I hope you’ll come with me.Thanks for your support!Jennie This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Have you ever looked at a project you’ve poured years of your life into and realized… it’s fine? Not catastrophic. Not terrible. Just fine.No one wants to read a book that’s fine — and I am certain you don’t want to write one.The first step in making sure you do better than fine is to catch yourself when you know you’ve hit a wall — which is way easier said than done.We get so used to plowing ahead, getting the words down, prioritizing FINISHING that we often forget to stop and make sure we are writing what we really want to be writing. Think of that pause like checking in with your gut or your heart: do you love this?Because if you don’t love it, your readers aren’t going to love it, either.In this Write Big episode, KJ and I sit down for an honest, behind-the-scenes look at what happens when you hit a wall—and decide to set off a stick of dynamite instead of trying to climb over it. Both of us recently threw out huge portions of our current projects (my Write Big book, and KJ’s novel) to start fresh from page zero.I share the story of my 12-hour wrestling match with ChatGPT over the books subtitle (yeah — 12 hours on the subtitle), the “tough love” reality check I got from #amwriting recurring guest therapist Dr. Diana Hill, and how answering one simple question—are you actually centering your reader?—changed everything about my book’s tone, structure, and voice. Meanwhile, KJ opens up about why she threw out her protagonist, embraced a dual-timeline structure, and ignored the well-meaning advice of friends who told her NOT to keep starting over.We talk about:* How to recognize when a book is polite or timid instead of alive.* The difference between an echo chamber (which AI can sometimes be) and a true truth-teller.* A method for salvaging the gold from an abandoned draft without getting bogged down by old words.* Why starting over isn’t “falling behind”—it’s standing up for your conviction.If you’re feeling stuck, lost, or secretely suspecting your current draft needs a radical pivot, we encourage you stop playing it safe and build something alive.Let’s get back to work and finish work we LOVE.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Books Mentioned* Austin Kleon’s Steal Like an Artist* John Wooden’s books on coaching basketball* Serena Bowen’s novel: Big Stick Energy* Virginia A. Evans’s The CorrespondentTranscriptJennie: [00:00:00] Hi, I’m Jennie Nash, and you’re listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. This is a Write Big episode, where I bring you short conversations, this one might not be so short, about the mindset shifts that shape the work, and today I’m talking to KJ.Jennie: Hi, KJ.KJ: I’m so excited to be here. This is... Uh, you know. I’ll be here lots. This is great. Uh, the, the behind-the-scenes stuff- Is the behind the scenes stuff? KJJennie: often-KJ: And here we are just to like, you know, having a nice normal, um, a podcast, soJennie: yeah. I know. I’m so excited to talk to you and to share this conversation with our listeners, and we’re talking aboutJennie: So we’re talking about the mindset shifts that shape the work. That’s what Write Big is all about, and [00:01:00] oof, some big ones just happened for us both. Yep. Um, if you’ve been listening for a while, you know we’re both working on projects. They’re very different projects. Um, KJ’s is a novel, mine is a nonfiction book, and I just m- literally dropped a bomb on mine and totally blew it up and started in a new direction, and this is years into it, and you recently did that too, and you- I didKJ: something very similarJennie: you were shy about sharing it with me, which I thought was funny. Um- Oh. ‘Cause you were like- Yeah ... “She’s not in the book anymore.” I was asking her aboutKJ: something. That’s right. You’re like, “Oh, and this could be s- “ I, I mentioned something, and I was like, “Oh, yeah.” Yeah,Jennie: I just mentioned changes. That was when we were in person.Jennie: We, KJ and I were in person, and you know what? We didn’t take a picture.KJ: Oh my God, we didn’t. You’re right. Oh, well.Jennie: We both tra- We have aKJ: lot of things. Travel It just means we have to do it again [00:02:00] soon.Jennie: We both traveled great distances in order to have lunch and go shopping and talk about books, and we were walking and chatting about KJ’s book, and, and that’s when I learned she had blown everything up.Jennie: So how areKJ: you- We both blew things up. So I got questions. I’m sure you have questions. I have. My first question- Yeah ... you just did this, so how did you know you had to do this?Jennie: Yeah, I did it yesterday.KJ: I think that’s ... I know. I think that’s the thing that people wanna know, like, “How did you, how did you know?”KJ: Okay. “Was it gradual? Was it sudden?” Just-Jennie: Yeah ...KJ: you know, j- tell, tell us how we should know if we should do the same thing, which I already did, and I have an answer to this too, so.Jennie: Yeah, yeah.KJ: How didJennie: you know? So I was ... I had a finished manuscript, and I asked two people to read it for very particular reasons, these beta reas- readers, and they, neither of them were people that I would callJennie: They’re not the kinda typical people that I would go to. [00:03:00] They were, they were more, um, regular readers, if that makes sense. They’re, they’re not insidery people like you. I mean, you and I- Me ... have a lot of insidery, inside the industry people. These were not those people. So I had a full manuscript. I took it out to both of them.Jennie: I got feedback from both of them, and the, the first, the first person’s feedback was- Fine? It was, it was fine. It was like, “This is fine. I want more of this or that.” And it was, it was kind of like, not-KJ: Fine, huh? Great ...Jennie: not what anybody wants. Fine. I either want my reader to be like, “Oh, hell yes,” or, “I co- totally don’t get it.”Jennie: Like, I want, I don’t want fine. So that was the first thing, and then the second reader [00:04:00] said, “I ha- I got some tough love for you.” And this was happened after I was really struggling. I was trying to rewrite while they were doing the beta read, and, you know, f- with my own critique and my own next steps and my own thing, and I found myself unable to go forward because of the title.Jennie: I kept changing my mind on the title. Like, what really is this? And what, it’s particularly the subtitle. What, what am I doing? Like, after all this time, after all this time, after a million blueprints, a million conversations, a whole manuscript, I’m still asking myself, “What is the point? Who is this for?Jennie: What am I doing?” And I, when I say that I was wrestling with that, I felt that I couldn’t revise until I got it right because I, the revision now is very [00:05:00] specific. It’s not let’s just get some words down.KJ: Mm-hmm.Jennie: And so I think I spent, I mean, I’m not even exaggerating- 12 hours? I’m not kidding. Playing- No,KJ: I, I believe-Jennie: Playing with my title.Jennie: And-KJ: And you kept sending me things, and I’d be like, “Eh.”Jennie: Yeah, you were like, “Meh.” I was playing in Chat GPT- I was super helpful ... and the reason that I spent so much time was it was really fun. It was, it was like, “Well, what about this? Well, what about the other? I don’t like that word.” Like I was fighting with the machine, which I sort of enjoyed, and, and it was, it wasJennie: It says, you know, it says ridiculous things all the time. “This is your most original idea.” I’m like, “Blah.” You know? Yeah. Just I was kind of wanting to- Yeah, you,KJ: you, you can’t listen to it. No. You can only listen to what it’s making you say.Jennie: I was wrestling with my own mind. Yeah. That’s what I was doing.Jennie: Mm-hmm. And, and I would land on something, and I would think this, and I would start [00:06:00] to revise, and I’d think, “Yeah,” and then I’d send it to you. And you’d be, yeah, you’d be like, “I don’t like it,” or, “I don’t get it,” or, “Meh,” or, “No,” or whatever. And I was getting mad, not at you, but at my own self. Like, what is the matter here?Jennie: And if you’ve listened to the podcast, you heard some big revelation episodes with Andrew Perella, who’s working on his novel, where you have to step back from the wrestling to say, “Why am I wrestling so much with this? There’s something else going on here,” right? Mm-hmm. So that was kind of what was happening, and then the second beta reader- Uh, who is, has been on the podcast several times as well and, and will be in the future.Jennie: It’s therapist Diana. So therapist Diana often comes on to help us with some psychological things around writing. And- AndKJ: she has a book.Jennie: She does. She has actually three. So she was the one [00:07:00] who said, “I got some tough love for you.” And she said, “Why don’t you come over, and we’ll sit down, and I’ll, I’ll tell it to you.”Jennie: And so part of me was doing that thing that you do is, where it was like, “Oh, crap, I still have so much work to do, and, and I’m tired of this, and I don’t wanna.” And, you know, so I went into it with that sort of whiny, resistant attitude. And for, like, the first hour when she was talking to me, I had that really defensive thing of like, “You don’t get me.Jennie: You don’t get, you don’t get what I’m doing. You don’t, you’re not, you’re not in my world.” Like, I was really resistant. And then she did the coolest thing because she’s a, a therapist and a writer and all the things. She used my own system on me, and she was like, [00:08:00] “Okay, step one is why are you doing this?” And she said, “I want...Jennie: I’m gonna ask you,” I think she said, “15 times, ‘Why are you doing this?’” And we, we were walking, and so she was just go saying, “Why are you doing this?” And I was just spouting out all the things. And I got to about, I don’t know, eight, nine, and she goes, “Okay.” None of these are about the reader. These are all about you and what you want.Jennie: And, and none of these are about what you’re actually making. Is this book... Are you trying to help your readers with what you’re trying to do with this book? Like, are they in the same place you are? And I s- I had this really strong reaction, and I said, “No. What I’m struggling with around this book is, is a different problem from, from my r- my [00:09:00] reader.Jennie: I want to meet them here.” And I, and I said where I want to meet them, and what I want, how I wanted to help them, and why it was so hard to deliver that. And she was taking notes on her phone while we were walking, and then, uh, she read them back to me, and, and it was like, oh yeah, that’s the book I want to write.Jennie: That, that’s the book I want to write. Like, I, I knew it, I just wasn’t doing it. And it was, um, a whole different structure, a whole different attitude, a whole different voice and tone. And, and it really required a page zero start. So I... This was what was really cool. I, um, did not use ChatGPT. I wrote a new subtitle.Jennie: I guess I did use it, ‘cause I was wrestling with one word. I guess I did use it for this one [00:10:00] word. Um-KJ: It’s, it can be a really great thesaurus.Jennie: Yeah, yeah. And, and I sent it to you, and you said, I’m gonna keep this text for the rest of my life. You said, “I’ve already pre-ordered it.”KJ: Yeah.Jennie: I mean- YouKJ: got itJennie: It actually-KJ: I mean, you know, you might change a word or something, but, but no, that one was like, oh, oh, yeah, yeah.KJ: Okay.Jennie: Yeah. It made me wanna cry. Aw. And then I re- I wrote a new intro, totally new from scratch, which is where I had been stuck before, just like even what is this? And I, I wrote it in, like, 15 minutes, and I sent it to Diana, therapist Diana, and, um, she said, her text reply was, “F*****g awesome.”KJ: Yay.Jennie: And I was like, okay, okay.Jennie: [00:11:00] Like, two people I trust.KJ: She didn’t say, “Fine.”Jennie: Right? Two people I trust had that reaction, and when I... I wish I could find the text. Maybe I can find the text. Because when I sent it to her, this was what was so great. I do wanna find this. I’m scrolling through my texts now while we’re talking, because I said, um- New intro, just three pages.Jennie: Will you read? This is it, period. I hardly even need to ask you because I know it’s it. Like, I, it wasn’t looking for confirmation or validation. I kind of just wanted her to see. But I, I felt it was it. I knew it was it. And then I started... I can’t stop writing now. Like, I’d been so stuck, and I can’t stop writing.Jennie: I’m so fired up. I’m so excited. It feels alive and amazing. Um, it feels like butter on toast. Like, it’s just [00:12:00] smooth and easy, and I get it, and I, I, I’ve clicked in, and it, and it... This has come after, like, I tried to sell this book. You know? I mean, I went through that whole process and, and it didn’t. And now I’m so delighted that it didn’t sell, that I’m not writing that other book, that, that I get to write- YesJennie: this book. And it’s, like, such a pain in the butt really because, you know, I wanted it to be done, and I wanted it to be over- ... and I wanted to be close. And I thought I was there. Um, I had all these plans, you know, for launching and making it happen and blah, blah, blah. And it’s like, oh gosh, now I’m like six months or a year behind.Jennie: I’m using air quotes. Like, behind what? I don’t know. I mean, if I’m perfectly honest, there, there’s a colleague who has a book coming out in 2027 that I’m [00:13:00] twitchy about, and I sort of wanted to beat it. And- ... it was never gonna happen. And also, like, what is that even? What is that even? So I, yeah, I feel amazing.KJ: This is great.Jennie: Yeah. Yeah. I, I feel amazing.KJ: That’s, that’s fantastic. Yeah.Jennie: I, I just love it. I’m so grateful for, um, you know, the people that I have who are truth tellers, which is, you’re one of them. And youKJ: know- It is hard to find a truth teller. And I pick up so many books now, some of them by, you know, very well-known authors, and I’m like, there, there was no truth teller- RightKJ: for this person. And- I mean, I, I, yeah. You know, sometimes it’s just like, “Well, this could’ve been better,” but the- I’ve had a couple where I was like, “Wow, damn.” Like, I would’ve, I would... [00:14:00] Even though I don’t know you very well, if you’d given this to me in time, I would’ve stopped you, but-Jennie: Well, I think sometimes the more famous people get, the, the less often- I think soJennie: people will tell them the truth, and- Mm-hmm ... you have to seek that o- out your own self. And, y- you know, I’m so lucky that I have s- have, I mean, so lucky. You know, you, you’re not gonna let me get away with crap, and I don’t wanna put crap out there. Like, what I had was fine. ItKJ: wasn’t crap. It was fine. ItJennie: was fine.KJ: Mm-hmm. But- And some of it was great, was, like, inspirational, really. Helped me, and had lot... But you couldn’t, you just couldn’t nail that the subtitle was the point.Jennie: Yep. It’s so true. Yeah,KJ: and you just couldn’t, you just kept sending me, like, “Ugh.”Jennie: I know.KJ: You know? Like, like, “Oh, this is a book about...” You know, I was like, eh, just like, you know-Jennie: This is a writing bookKJ: boring thing, boring thing, colon, [00:15:00] boring thing. And it was- I know ... or, you know, like, like, “Meh thing, unexciting, dash-” “... probably okay.” I don’t know. It’s, it’s-Jennie: I know, and it, you know, this is in fact the whole write big process. I am going through the very thing I am teaching people to do. And- Mm-hmm When I, what I really understood finally is the reasonJennie: So one of the things, um, when Diana asked me, when she stopped me from saying all the reasons why I wanted to write this book and, and said none of these are about the reader, she understands about me that my whole career is about the reader. I, I train book coaches. I’m a book coach. I- it’s what I do. And, and so she was e- then asked me to really define.Jennie: She was like, “When you’re coaching someone and it’s magic and it [00:16:00] just works and it’s awesome, what are you doing?” And, and it was like, I’m not pulling any punches. I’m not, you know, a- and I, and I described to her an incident that just happened, and I can’t say very much about it. But a very, very well-known performer was sent to me by an agent, somebody we would all know, with a book proposal that needed help.Jennie: And, and I read the proposal, and the word that was just like a neon sign flashing in my mind was timid. It just felt timid.KJ: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.Jennie: And everybody does this. Everybody shrinks to a certain extent from the thing that they know they can write, and it was like, wow, s- super famous performer who is connected to all the famous people, don’t write a timid book.Jennie: Like, we don’t, we don’t want you to write a timid book. No. You don’t want to write a timid book. And in what I do, so I, I got on the Zoom with them, and I said, [00:17:00] “This is timid. This is a timid book. You’re shrinking from your authority.” And, you know, they were obviously taken aback. Um, but also then they ... It landed.Jennie: Like- Yes ... I, I see that. And that’s what I do when I’m coaching someone. So, so why is that not in the book? Yeah. So the book has gotten much more confrontational, much more tough love, much, much less equivocating. It just feels- MuchKJ: less how to not do something.Jennie: Ugh. Like. It’s so much more me, and I- YeahJennie: sometimes pretend like I’m a, a polite and kind and whatever, patient person. But the people that know me, you know, know I’m not actually like that, so. Anyway.KJ: And that would not be a helpful, I mean, that’s not a helpful book coach.Jennie: That’s right.KJ: You know, people may need that, but- For some people, give somebodyKJ: I don’t, yeah. I mean, yeah. Some, sometimes. But by and large, if you give somebody [00:18:00] something and they’re like, “This is great”-Jennie: Yeah.KJ: I, I mean, and maybe it’s great. Yeah. It’s probably not.Jennie: Yeah.KJ: You know, 99% of the time it’s almost, or it’s not even close, or it’s ...Jennie: Yeah.KJ: Yeah.Jennie: So I’ve pulled off of my shelf some different books for inspiration than the ones I was using before.Jennie: Um, Austin Kleon has a really cool thing in his new book. Why can’t I remember the title of his new book? It’s quite hard to remember.KJ: I don’t know. What does he want you to steal now?Jennie: I mean, steal, Steal Like an Artist is so memorable, and I can’t remember the new, the new one. It’s a good book, but he has this really cool image where he says, “Books are made of books,” and, and he has the cover of his new book with these inputs and the cover of, like, I don’t know, maybe six or eight books that went into his [00:19:00] book.Jennie: You know, like the, that went through his mind to create his book, and it’s really beautiful. LikeKJ: real books?Jennie: Yes.KJ: Like his cover is like if you put, I don’t know, I’m look- reading titles from the back of you- you- you’re behind ... Deep Work and Dare to Lead and Made to Stick, and, and you like- Yep ... fed them into a brain- YepKJ: and then it spat out your book?Jennie: Yep.KJ: Wow. Huh.Jennie: It’s reallyKJ: cool. That’s a, that’s an interesting ...Jennie: Yeah, it’sKJ: bold.Jennie: That’s really- It is bold, and it, but I do think it’s, I do think it’s real. And, and I had some books that were sort of ... What’s weird is I wasn’t reading them or studying them. I was almost like I would almost just touch them.Jennie: Like, these are the books I want my book to sit next to, to be like. And I’ve changed out the books that are, are that. I’ve pulled ... Like, I have this book that I love that is, um, by John Wooden, the basketball coach, about coaching basketball, and you know, it’s about [00:20:00] coaching, and, and I’ve always loved that book, and I’ve loved how he was revered as a coach.Jennie: And you know, that, that book is now one that’s informing me more. It would never be a comp title. This is a very different concept than a comp title, right? But, um, yeah, I just feel, I feel great. And, um- And folks who have been listening have heard me share some things where I’ve not been feeling great, and I’ve been feeling lost and confused, and, you know, shouldn’t I know better?Jennie: I’m the coach of the coaches, and shouldn’t I know better? This is my 13th book, and shouldn’t I know better? And it’s like, no, you always have to do the work. You just do.KJ: Well, and that’s what I hope, you know, people who’ve been listening along to us for the years we’ve spent on these projects now take is, I mean, there are people who write great books really quickly.KJ: Typically, they are also people who are able to, uh, you [00:21:00] know, process and keep pots on the stove. And, you know, like Serena writes three to four books a year, and that’s, uh, you know, a really hard person to have next to you at all times- Yeah, no kidding ... as I pretty much do. But I also can see that she’s got pots boiling at all the time.KJ: She doesn’t, you know, wake up on March 1st and say, “Okay, I wanna have a book by July 31st. What should it be about?” And, and that’s not how it works for her. And, and so even though she is absolutely faster at producing quality work than, than I am, it’s still, it’s not that. You know, it’s more like, “Okay, here’s this thing that I set up before, and here’s this thing that I spent, you know, a week plotting, and here’s...KJ: And I’m gonna pull this, this toge- together,” and, you know, she gets stuck, but she, and she also, you know, she’s full time all the time- Eh, not [00:22:00] doing, you know, that’s what she does. That and promoting them. And incidentally, she had a book come out today. Uh-oh, you’ve gone silent for me.Jennie: Sorry, I was raving and saying she did.Jennie: Um, it was, it’s called Big Stick Energy.KJ: Yeah.Jennie: And when this podcast airs, it will not have just come out today. It’ll be-KJ: No, but, you know, as we talk ...Jennie: a few weeks ago. But yeah, yay Serena. Okay. Yeah. So do you have more questions for me?KJ: It was more that I just wanted to express that I, uh, felt similarly, but minus all the other people.KJ: Mm. It was a very, like I was really stewing in like, “I just can’t- You know, I wanted to have, um, a, a, something that I was thinking about the whole time as I write. You know, I really wanted to know the, what the theme was and what the point was, and I just wanted to know why. Why was I doing this? And every day I would like sort of wake up [00:23:00] and, and stew more on that, and like put some more things in that.KJ: And it was like a, a 40-page Google Doc of, you know, me ranting and trying to get there. And then, then I was, I was putting words on the page, and I had 35,000 words, but I would sit down and I found the protagonist boring. She just ... The other people around her were more interesting.Jennie: That’sKJ: not aJennie: good- And- That’s not a good- NoJennie: feeling.KJ: No, it was bad. And I just kept sort of poking at this, and, and it was always so ... I’d say it’s, it’s, um, I would call it, I would call it domestic suspense except that it, it’s more of an outdoorsy book, so, you know, I don’t know, campground suspense. I don’t know. But, um, it’s, it’s not exactly a thriller.KJ: It’s definitely a, a suspense novel. And it all came down to like, well, why did this [00:24:00] happen, and why and why and why? And I realized that all of it was in the past. The more interesting story was in the past, and the more interesting people were the ones who had had that past experience, and were still here in this book.KJ: And it didn’t mean that, that I didn’t need a second generation of people, but they needed to have been, um, honestly fed by the trauma of the thing that happened in the past, and it ... So I, at some point, I was looking for the text while we were talking, but I can’t find it. I texted, um, Serena and Jess, and I was like, “Ugh, I think I gottaKJ: The, I gotta, I gotta have a second, I gotta have a dual timeline. I gotta ...” A- and Serena was like, “Stop doing this. You keep stop, you keep blowing this bo- book up. You know, just write what you’re writing. Just write.” And I was like, “No, no, no, no. I really, I, I do. I do.” And, “Why?” She said, “Why?” I said, “Because that’s where the interesting stuff is.”KJ: And she said, “Okay, fine.”Outro: Okay, but you said- And then she made me explain itKJ: whenOutro: we had a, a walk,KJ: but,Jennie: um- You said it didn’t involve people, but that’s people. [00:25:00]KJ: Oh, yeah. Yeah. But the people were saying, “No, no.” And, and she’s right to do that. I’m very prone- Oh, I see. They were not- I’m a little prone to blowing, blowing things upJennie: they were not egging you on. They were saying-KJ: No. Yeah. Uh, it was, it was, you know, “Can, can you stop rethinking this book and, and write this book?” And yes, yes I can, but it needed the, the rethinking. It’s, this is, it’s, it’s much more interesting. And, you know, it was at a point where things would kinda like, I’d come up with something and be like, “Oh, yeah, that locks into this, and this locks into this, and this locks into this,” but- The method of telling it wasn’t working.KJ: It’s not really a different story. The method of telling it wasn’t, wasn’t, wasn’t working. But it really is kind of like it bugs you, and it bugs you, and it bugs you, and it bugs you, and it bugs you, and finally you just give in to it.Jennie: Well, yeah. I mean, it’s a really interesting question of how do you know when you’re hiding from something, or avoiding something, [00:26:00] or telling yourself a story about your story, and how do you know when you need to make a move?Jennie: I, I feel like it’s very, very hard to do that in isolation. You know, even with your situation where your people were saying, “No, KJ,” that’s a mirror that somebody’s holding up to you where you get to decide how you feel about them saying no. Like, the point- Right ... really honest, good feedback is not that you take it all the time, it’s that does this resonate with something in you or not?Jennie: And with me it was like, oh, yeah, my fine manuscript, and then, and then this tough love. I’m like, “Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it needs to change.” And you hearing that, you’re like, “No. No. This...” Like, it, it was all, it all goes back to your conviction, but it’s- It,KJ: it’s just like the way you were using ChatGPT. ChatGPT wrote nothing, said [00:27:00] nothing, con- added nothing because he is...KJ: He. I don’t, uh... You know, it is not an anything. It is a echo. It is- Yeah ... a reflection. It is an echo and a reflection of all of our work combined into, you know, a, a, a stolen creation. But e- and therefore, as far as I’m concerned, we have a right to use it however we want. But- It’s not capable of producing anything original, but it is capable of reflectingJennie: That’s rightKJ: And that’s what you were using it for, and I think that’s reallyJennie: It’s really helpful when you’re strategizing- Mm-hmmJennie: and sorting out your thoughts, and this is what I think I wanna do, and this is why I wanna do it, and this is why that word isn’t right for that. And for me, that was just the-KJ: And the peril of it kind of is that it refuses to stopJennie: So that’s what’s so interesting you say that, because I... When I... So I said 12 hours.Jennie: I spent a whole lot of time on airplanes the last month, and this [00:28:00] is kind of what I would do on an airplane, is I was on airplanes that now have super fast, like that satellite hotspot- Mm-hmm ... WiFi. It’s super fast. And so it was kind of fun to get to do this stuff on an airplane. And you know, I can... I love to work on airplanes, but I can’t do deep work.Jennie: So I would sort of tap into this, and I was just playing, playing, playing, playing, pushing, pushing. And I did have the thought at one point: There is no friend that I have on the planet or anybody that I could pay that would stick with this as long as I’m doing it. And-KJ: That is true ...Jennie: and that was in, on some, some ways I was like thank goodness that this thing will stick with my brain, saying, “No.Jennie: No, not that word. Let’s find 47 other words to think about rightKJ: now.” But you’re the one saying, “No, no, no.”Jennie: Yes. Yes.KJ: Yeah.Jennie: And no humanKJ: would do that. But I do find that a peril of it, like, [00:29:00] like I was trying to use it to, to find a, a stand-up paddleboard today. This is a fine use to... And, and you know, it kept... It just keeps saying, “Well, if you’ll tell me this, I could do this.KJ: And if you’ll tell me this, I could...” Like, it never... It doesn’t want... You know, it’s not a thing, so it wants to keep you there like all things of its sort. So it’s a, it’s a little bit of, um It, it’s, it’s just something to be aware of. Like, it’s, it is keeping ... Its job is to keep you in that conversation.Jennie: Yeah.Jennie: And itKJ: wa- But it is not a conversation because it is not a, it is not something that you can converse with. But so, so to use it for as far as you can get, and then as you did, to go, “Uh, and now, you know, uh, my thoughts have, have churned enough to have, have, have ... And, and you have to sort of, uh, you know, leave it going, “But wait, if you’ll sugg- you know, tell, [00:30:00] I, tellKJ: Right. It- “I can still think of 452 more words for, for,” you know.Jennie: And it, and yeah. No. It’s relentlessly helpful- It’s relentless ... in suggesting things.KJ: Yeah,Jennie: yeah. And it’s ... So on the one hand, that was lovely, and on the other hand it was like, “Just stop.” Like, the writer’s job is to have an opinion or a point of view.Jennie: And-KJ: It could have any point of view ...Jennie: it will never have a point of view- No. Yeah ... or opinion that is based on anything. And so, like, your reaction to your, your longtime people who know you and know your writing, know your process, and know your goals, and know all that, y- you know, that reflection allowed you to tap back into your point of view, which is, “No, I have to have two timelines.Jennie: I have to blow this up. I have to do it differently. It’s ... My protagonist is boring.”KJ: Yeah. Don’t worry, future readers of this book. She’s gone. [00:31:00]Jennie: But new protagonist is not boring.KJ: New protagonist is not one bit boring. It was funny ‘cause there were just some things that I, that had come from the point of view of non-protagonist characters that I was just like, “This is so much better thanKJ: Like, this is the, this is ... Like, I wanna be with this person. I don’t wanna be with this person I’m ... This person just threw themselves into this,” whereas, you know, the person I was imagining and creating and, uh- Anyway, it- it’s okay. I’m fine. I’m fine. I’m fine.Jennie: Um, I mean, I know you’ve had that thing I’ve had, which is I’m gonna have a draft by X, and you’ve had that- YeahJennie: for many, many months.KJ: The number of times I’ve said I’m gonna have a draft by on- Yeah ... this particular manuscript are- Really embarrassing. They’re not embarrassing, it’s just, you know, it, it, [00:32:00] it just, it just is. I’m trying to do something different, and doing something different takes time, and you are trying to do something big-Jennie: YeahKJ: and something that has a big shadow and a big resonance, and you can’t ... You’re not gonna ... That’s not gonna be that way in the first or the second or the fourth or the fifth draft.Jennie: Well, you said to me ... I, I’ve always had a vision of this book I’m writing as, as being small. I have a couple of-KJ: Small physically, like thin.Jennie: Both. Small in length and small in trim size. Uh, uh, spare, I guess, is maybe- Yeah ... a word I, I would think of. And there’s several books I have that do that, that I admire, and it’s a thing I want. And you’ve been always saying to me, “It’s really hard to write a book like that.” It’s n- you don’t just ... [00:33:00] Just ‘cause it’s little and short doesn’t mean it’s easyKJ: It’s hard to write short.Jennie: Yeah. And, and you’ve been warning me about that, and I think I really encountered that buzzsaw here. Uh, I’m like, “Ugh.” Um, so.KJ: Well, you’re just trying to channel ... I think you’re also trying to channel a part of yourself that mostly comes out in reaction to others.Jennie: Mm, yeah.KJ: And that’s hard, because you don’t have anything to react against.KJ: Yeah. You’re reacting against an imaginary version. You’re reacting against everyone that you’ve ever had to go, “That’s timid.”Jennie: Yep. “KJ: That’s, you know, that’s not what you meant to do.” Okay, great, but I didn’t ... Like, uh, this is, is, is fine writing, but why? Where does it fit? Right. What is this? What the hell are you doing?KJ: What- Right ... you know? And you’re trying to write for all of those people, but as an abstraction.Jennie: That’s super astute. That’s super astute. And I,KJ: I’m gonna- Maybe, [00:34:00] maybe, maybe you, you address this book to, to the, this, um, unknown celebrity.Outro: Well, I actually did write thatKJ: story. Dear Taylor Swift, this is how you-Outro: Oh, gosh.Outro: Can youKJ: imagine? Don’t write a ... Don’t- Uh ... don’t write a, a, you know- Uh ...Jennie: aKJ: timid book. And I know it wasn’t Taylor. Well, I don’t actually know that it wasn’t Taylor. No. But it wasn’t Taylor Swift, guys. It wasn’t TaylorJennie: Swift. Oh, my gosh. Um, the ... Yeah, that is a really helpful thing for me to think about, actually, because I need to keep specific people in mind at specific points, and that’s gonna help me.Jennie: And that’s the reason why I love book coaching, is I love the back-and-forthing. Interactive nature that isKJ: very- Well, and you said to me the last time we talked about my book, I wrote it down, hold on, ‘cause it’s very, [00:35:00] “What can I say that’s not being said? What can I say that’s offensive? How can I make people mad?”KJ: Here, do that. I’m shaking the page at Jennie. Jennie, what can you say that’s not being said about writing? Why, how can you offend people? How can you hurt their feelings and make them go away and go, “That’s worse. I’m not either doing that. You’re soKJ: mean”?Jennie: Well, the reason I said that is because we were talking about what books ... I mean, so far listeners, Kate is obviously at a level many of us will never get to, and in her career. She is at a very high level with- SheKJ: does not feel that way.Jennie: I know. But, you know, with really big goals and, uh, big possibilities in front of her.Jennie: And so the, when we talk about it, it’s like, “What will make people pick this book for their book club?” And, and that’s a question anybody could ask, and should [00:36:00] ask, if that’s what their goal is, to write such a book. And, you know, that’s why I was saying write something offensive, because you want some book clubs to be like, “That is a book we will not touch,” because- YepJennie: that that means there are other book clubs that are gonna be like, “This is our next book, no question.” Yeah. You know?KJ: Yeah. Like, if you- And we say it all the time, you write for everyone, you write for no one, but also it’s just hard to-Jennie: Well, and I haveKJ: been- Hard not to like pull your punches and back up a little and be like, “Uh, I can’t mention that.KJ: I can’t, I can’t-” Or, “IJennie: can’t be that person.” And you, as a human, I mean, I am so fortunate to be your friend, because you as a human will often say things that other people will, will maybe not say, or, you know, are maybe not super popular. And I go to you to hear those things, you know? And, and you, you say them with conviction, and I love [00:37:00] that about you.Jennie: And that should be in your book, you know?KJ: Well, I’m trying. I think it’s closer. Amazing. I think it’s a lot closer.Jennie: Well, if folks are getting tired of hearing us talk about this, the endless struggle and challenge and up and down and whatever, you’re probably not in the right business. Because-KJ: Yeah ...Jennie: this is- IKJ: would hope this would be reassuringJennie: this is how it goes.KJ: I always wanna hear. That is part of the problem with the, the standard podcast model of talk to author whose book has just come out, because that is an author whose book has just come out. They have just, they’ve, they’ve done all this, and, and I’m not... I mean, by all means, you know, listen to podcasts about authors and then go buy their books.KJ: Um, but you know, as a writer, you just hear that and you’re like, “Oh, look, they’re finished. Look, that,” you know, they, they, they... And they, they’ll say, “Well, there was this really low moment where, you know, the, my book pre- before [00:38:00] this got turned down,” or whatever. But they’re, they’re past that and, and you’re just like, “Well, yeah, but that was probably really short.KJ: That was probably a blip. You probably didn’t feel that the way I would’ve felt it.” And I,Jennie: yeah, so- Right? You hear Virginia A. Evans say she was rejected and rejected and rejected, and she finally just said, “Screw it, I’m gonna write this weird story in my head,” that turned out to be The Correspondent, you know?Jennie: And, and she tells that in three minutes on a podcast,KJ: and- Right ... I- And you’re like, “Well, that, that, that was short. That can’t have been very painful.”Jennie: Right? And look at what it got her, and she’s fine now. But- Mm-hmm ... yeah, I’m mostly interested in talking to people when they’re making the decisions that lead to whatever, whatever they’re gonna make, ‘cause it’s the process, man.Jennie: You gotta like the process. Yeah. Even on the days when it sucks and- Ooh ... oof, there are days when it does. They really-KJ: There, there are, [00:39:00] there are indeed Yeah. Well, but this is pretty g- like we’re, we’re back. We’re back, kids. We’re, we’re- We’re, we’re back ... we’re writing. We’re, we’re, we’re here. We’re doing it.KJ: We did. Yeah. We blew some stuff up, but now we’reKJ: building it back. Hopefully a year from now you won’t be listening to the exact same podcast. We’ll be like, “Here’s what we said a year ago. Here’s how we’re blowing up our books today.” At some point everyone should be like, “You know they’re never gonna finish these books.” When is that point?Outro: 2029.KJ: If we’re still doing this in 2029Jennie: and talking about the same books, you can, you can all just turn off. No, I’m on fire now. I’m on fire. I am too,KJ: I swear.Jennie: Yeah, yeah.KJ: This is it.Jennie: And there’s a thing that I’m doing that we could talk briefly about, ‘cause I know you’re doing too, which is when you blow something up, there are parts of what you made that you can keep.Jennie: And what’s part of the fun is discerning that. Yeah. And for me, I’m [00:40:00] going through the manuscript and, and saving a story here, a page there. I would say like one out of 10 maybe. One-KJ: That is not how I do it.Jennie: Mm.KJ: I start a new thing and then I will go back. Whenever I run into something that I know is in the other thing, I pull it in.Jennie: Mm. Yeah, I’ve beenKJ: mining- It’s kind of my rule. I’m allowed, allowed to be in the other thing.Jennie: Interesting. Interesting. It’sKJ: only I have to take it ... And sometimes I don’t even drop it right into the Scrivener. I’ll like put it somewhere else- Yes ... and then play with it somewhere else-Outro: Interesting ...KJ: so thatKJ: Yeah, ‘cause I, I, I don’t wanna Sometimes, and sometimes I will realize that revising something that I already did, even though it’s good, to make it fit is actually harder than just rewriting it.Jennie: Yeah. I just really like the physical act. I, I do this physical thing. I go in and [00:41:00] I literally strike out what I’m not gonna use.Jennie: Mm. And it, it feels really satisfying. Just like, “Nope, nope, nope, nope”- Yeah ... nope. And then I’ll encounter a thing I am gonna use, and I’ll highlight it gray. That means it was used. And-KJ: Nice ...Jennie: it just ... I like the physicality of there are parts of this that are useful, and there’s a lot of this that is not, and, and I’m making that decision.Jennie: It’s gone from-KJ: Right ...Jennie: well, it’s not really, it’s struck out, but- Yeah ... that physical, um- Yeah.KJ: That was, that was what ... I forget the phrase that Serena used, but when I said I was doing this and I was gonna start it, and she said, “Okay, save past draft.” Like, she said something very clear. It was just, like, three words that were just like, you know, like, “Okay, but don’t, don’t throw it away.”KJ: That’s so funny.Jennie: Which I,KJ: I wasn’t going to, but yeah.Jennie: Do you feel 100% committed to the forward path now? [00:42:00]KJ: I feel 100% committed to the forward path. Thanks. This is so much more alive.Jennie: Yay. Same. That’s what we’re looking for, alive. Alive.KJ: Yes.Jennie: Yeah, I love it. All right. Well, um, so fun to chat with you, KJ, and we will continue the conversation.Jennie: Um, also you have some stuff up your sleeve that, um, folks will get to listen to coming up. And for everyone tuning in, so glad you could join me to talk to KJ. Now let’s get back to work and finish what matters most.Outro: The hashtag amwriting podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were [00:43:00] paid for their time and their creative output because everyone deserves to be paid for their work This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Paid subscribers can join us in the chat to respond to this invitation! #AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.If you haven’t caught episode 523 yet to hear me and Dr. Diana Hill talk about juggling all the things, you can catch up below. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

On the #amwriting podcast’s Margin Notes, host Jennie Nash talks with Dr. Diana Hill, author of Wise Effort, about how writers handle mishaps and self-talk when juggling book-related obligations. Hill describes accidentally booking two plane tickets to a Washington, DC conference, prompting a discussion about shifting the story from “I’m disorganized” to one of abundance and opportunity. Hill introduces Buddhism’s “wise speech” filters—helpful, kind, timely, and true—and distinguishes guilt (which motivates clean-up and repair) from shame (which labels the self as bad and can paralyze writers). They share examples of painful feedback and feelings of insignificance, discuss the “worldly winds” (fame/insignificance, pleasure/pain, blame/disrepute, gain/loss), and conclude that choosing to “pay the price” of a busy, opportunity-seizing life can be healthier than spiraling into blame or defensiveness.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Read Wise Effort by Dr. Diana HillTranscriptJennie: [00:00:00] Hi, I’m Jennie Nash, and you’re listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. This is Margin Notes, the place in the podcast where we talk about the big decisions writers face in their work or creative lives.Jennie: And I’m here again with Dr. Diana Hill, author of Wise Effort, and we’re gonna talk about a really interesting reality that you and I have both noticed, Diana, which is that when you’re out there in the world with your book as a writer and you’re juggling all the things, you’re ... You have interviews, you’re putting, you know, inquiries out, you’re showing up for conferences or workshops or events or things, and sometimes things don’t always go the way that you planned.Jennie: So today you have a little experience [00:01:00] with that, which is why we’re even talking today.Diana: Well, it’s, it’s more like things don’t go the way that I plan. It’s more like I had no idea about my own plans because I’m juggling so much. Bec- I, I’m on my way to this pretty, uh, big conference in Washington, DC, and I’m going to present on a book that I wrote, uh, called I Know I Should Exercise, But: 44 Reasons Why We Don’t Move and How to Get Over Them.Diana: And I’m going to present to a bunch of researchers and therapists about this sort of model of what gets in the way of us exercising. And I open up my American Airlines app and realize I have booked myself a ticket today and a ticket tomorrow. I bought two plane tickets to this conference without any awareness that I had already bought one.Diana: And so I had to decide, am I gonna go tomorrow or gonna go today? And, uh, I canceled and said, “Hey, I’d rather...” And I called you, I texted you right away, “Hey, I have an open af- afternoon. Do you wanna meet up, Jennie?” But this is the case, right? [00:02:00] W- when you have so much on your plate because you’re, you are moving pieces around to make things happen, little bits of sand drop through the cracks.Diana: I think, yes, that’s, that is a problem. But what’s the bigger problem is how we treat ourselves after that or during that, or the stories we tell ourselves about who we are and our capabilities. I think I said, “I’m so disorganized,” and you said, “Oh, I’m so disorganized.” And then we said, “Wait a minute, maybe we need to change our script.”Diana: Right? Which is hilarious because that’s what your entire book is about, is telling yourself a different story, not believing the first story that y- comes into your head, which is, oh, well, what happened was you told me that you did this and I laughed and I said, “Oh, I, I do things like that all the time. I c- I think of myself as a terribly disorganized person.”Diana: And that’s when we both stopped and said, “Well, wait a minute. What would the other story here be?” So that’s what- Yeah ... we thought we would talk about. Yeah. I often [00:03:00] think of the Lucille Ball episode when the chocolates are coming down the conveyor belt, and they start speeding up, and she’s stuffing them in her bra, and she’s stuffing it in her face, and they’re, and they’re flying off.Diana: And then you realize, well, wait a minute here, there’s an abundance of chocolate coming your way. Like, this is, this may be a good thing, you know? Like, you have a conference that you’re going to, or you have all these different opportunities that you’re juggling. And we could start there with, uh, shifting to that type of a story, which is a story of there’s so much ‘cause it’s an experience of abundance.Diana: It’s an experience of opportunities, of possibilities, which already shifts our mind into a different place. And you could notice that even in your body when you shift from, “I’m a disorganized mess,” to, “Oh, I have so many opportunities and possibilities right now.” Well, and what’s interesting in your case is that you, it, it wasn’t like you didn’t have a plane ticket.Diana: You had two plane tickets. So in some ways there’s a story of [00:04:00] you’re quite organized. You were gonna get yourself to this conference no matter what. Or a story of I didn’t trust myself, that I bought the plane ticket. So I had, I had to do it twice. But yes, I mean, the, the nature of the human mind is that it’s a story-making machine, and actually everything that we experience comes through the, our, our mental filters, and we get to be the chooser of which stories are most helpful.Diana: In Buddhism, there’s something called wise speech, and wise speech has these four qualities to it. The first quality is, is it helpful? The next one is, is it kind? The next one, which I think is a very useful one, is, is it timely? Like, is it a good time for m- for me to tell myself this story? Sometimes you might wanna tell yourself the story that you’re disorganized and you need to go get organized.Diana: You need to, you know, clean stuff up, do a little , spring cleaning. But telling yourself that when you’re in the middle of a ton of other things and now you have to deal with your low mood and feeling bad about yourself isn’t helpful. And then the fourth [00:05:00] quality of wise speech is, is it true? Sometimes we do need to question, is it true?Diana: Is it not true? But most of the time, if we’re getting all wrapped up with the, is it true? Is it not true? Am I disorganized or not? We’re just doing black and white thinking, and it’s m- usually more a little bit of both. That type of questioning our thoughts or questioning our stories and asking ourselves what would be the most helpful, what would be the most kind, what would be the most timely, and maybe what would be the most true, is a better angle to take with it, I think.Diana: I love that. I love that so much. I know another thing that happens when writers are juggling all the things is sometimes we, we drop one of the balls and w- we disappoint someone. So let’s say in a different iteration of this that you actually were supposed to fly yesterday, and so you missed the conference.Diana: You know, that, that happens when you have a whole bunch of things going on, or you wrote the time wrong down for the podcast interview, or you missed [00:06:00] some critical deadline, and now you have on top of that like, “Oh, I, I let these people down. I said I was gonna show up, and I’m not.” Or, you know, what, what do we do when the disorganization leads to those kinds of thoughts?Diana: Mm-hmm. Well, if, if there is something you need to clean up, sometimes we do need to clean up. Yeah. I mean, that’s kind of getting radically honest with ourself, and there’s, there’s t- two layers to that. Guilt is a, actually an emotion that we evolved as humans for a good reason, to clean stuff up. I made a mistake, I feel a little guilty, I go apologize.Diana: Um, I’ve, I had a, I gave, I did a white lie about something, I got caught, so I admit it. You know, whatever it is. That happened this morning. My son took my AirPod and he, he wouldn’t fess up. And finally he fessed up. I’m like, “See, doesn’t it feel better just to be honest?” Like, it’s just be honest about it.Diana: But there’s a, there’s a distinction between guilt, [00:07:00] which motivates us to just, just to clean stuff up, and shame. Shame is I am bad. There’s something wrong with me. I’m a bad person because I scheduled two flights or because I, you know, had, said a white lie to my mom for taking her AirPod. Shame is pretty detrimental, and it’s the type of emotion that makes us climb back into a hole and not put ourselves out there.Diana: And as writers, we need to be putting ourselves out there a lot. We need to be making lots of mistakes. Maybe every once in a while feeling a little bit guilty for something that we need a course correction on, but we course correct and we move on, as opposed to shame of I am bad, and then we’re paralyzed, frozen, and we go nowhere.Diana: Yeah. Yeah. Gosh, you’re making me think of something that happened to me one time when I was out there promoting a book, and I had been invited to do the keynote speech at a big conference. And- There was a process in place where [00:08:00] my presentation was vetted. Like, I had to submit it and, um, and it was vetted and, and we were really clear on what I was talking about and what I was doing there vis-a-vis what some other of the speakers were doing.Diana: So there was this nice work on the whole presentation, and I felt really confident about what I was doing. And I, I did the, um, presentation and, and it was sort of s- short and, um, I thought it was awesome. And then I got feedback from the conference presenters that I had completely misunderstood my role, that I should have spoken three times longer than I had, that I had delivered something sort of thin and not what they were expecting and what they had hired me for.Diana: I, I just remember I... Actually, what I did was I gave the money back that they had paid me. [00:09:00] I felt so bad. I felt so shameful that I, that I said, “I, I can’t take the money if, if it didn’t go well. You know, I’m giving it back.” I was so freaked out about it. But as... This is years and years ago. As the years have gone by, I’ve thought about it a lot, and I’ve thought, it wasn’t actually my fault.Diana: Like, I did i- all the steps that I did to make sure I was doing what I thought I was doing, and somehow I told the story that it was my... I did something bad. So- Yeah. Yeah ... that’s kinda, that’s what’s coming up for me when you said that. Isn’t that amazing? I think that that can be, um, our experience in so many different ways where we can fall into feeling bad, we can, um, we have experiences of feeling insignificant.Diana: I mean, especially when you’re putting yourself out there, and we take one little thread of feedback, and it can destroy us, especially where that feedback is coming from. Because you’re getting that feedback from the presenter, you know, whatever committee. The person who hired me, yeah. Who hired you.Diana: Imagine if w- if we went around and [00:10:00] we passed a microphone to the people in the audience. You would have been gotten a l- very different, you know, perspectives. And the, the question becomes, like, who, who am I doing this for? And, um, there was in- unclear communication. The last time I was at a big, uh, conference, uh, just a few months ago- I gave what I thought...Diana: It was on, on the book Wise Effort, and I gave what I thought was, like, the best talk I’d ever given, ever, on this. I was, I was flying high. I got great feedback. I thought it was, I thought it was pretty amazing. And it was- You’re like, “I’m so good at this.” Yeah. Yeah. I’m like, “I, I finally nailed it.” Yeah. Like, so many times.Diana: I finally said it the way I wanna say it. And, and when I give these talks, I- there- I- a la Jennie Nash, I bring in a giant notepad and a Sharpie, and I sometimes I do these little one-on-one exercises with people in the audience demonstrating Wise Effort. Like, draw what it feels like in your body and, and then I hold up the notepad for everyone to see.Diana: And so it was the day after, I’m leaving the conference, and I had the notepad under my arm, and [00:11:00] I’m getting a coffee, and this guy comes up to me looking like a very stately psychologist. He comes up to me, um, in line and he’s like, “Oh, did you go to the conference?” And I said, “Yes.” I said, “I...” And he said, “Oh, big notepad.”Diana: I said, “Yeah, actually, I presented yesterday.” And he said, “Oh, yeah, great. What did you present on?” And I said, “Well, I- uh, my name’s Anna Hill. I presented on Wise Effort.” And he said- ... “Oh, I think I went to that workshop.”Diana: It sounds like it made a mark. Insignificance. Insignificance. And i- in Buddhism, there’s something called the, um, the four worldly winds, which are the, the, the things that push... Or sometimes they say the eight worldly winds, but they’re things that push us off our game, right? And they are fame and insignificance.Diana: Ah. When you’re on either one of those, right, you’re- you got, you got, you got a chance that you’re gonna get knocked off. Another one is pleasure and pain. Another one is, um, blame and disrepute. Ooh. Ooh. Which is what you’re talking about there, blame. I feel like I was blamed. It knocked me off. [00:12:00] And then the last one is gain and loss.Diana: Hmm. And so as writers, we’re constantly, like, facing those winds, right? I get pr- I get, I feel famous, I feel insignificant. Oh, this is so great, so much pleasure. This sucks. This is the most painful thing I’ve ever been through in my life, right? Oh, I got the book deal. Ooh, it’s with this, you know, kinda crappy publisher.Diana: So f- you know, all up and down, up and down, up and down. And the question becomes, I mean, back to the story of juggling all the things. If you’re juggling all those things, where are your feet planted? Are you stable? Even, even if you’re dropping stuff right and left. And that doesn’t really matter if you’re dropping stuff, if you feel planted in who you are, what you have to offer, you know?Diana: And yeah, you’re gonna ... It’s gonna go high and it’s gonna go low, and you’ll double book. Well, that’s what I thought was remarkable about what you did today. You pivoted so fast. I think you texted me, might have been before 8:00 AM. You were just, just like, “I have a whole day.” You know, do, like you just started making meaning of your new [00:13:00] reality, which was you’re not on an airplane today.Diana: You’re on an airplane tomorrow, and it seemed like it took you no time at all to, like you said, your feet were so planted that you sort of just shook it off and moved on. Is, is that what it felt like? Yeah, it felt like carpe diem. You know? It was one of those, I was mad, I was disappointed, I was ... I, I hate those airline apps, and then I’m calling the airline.Diana: I was in the struggle for a little bit, and then, and then I just dropped it and said, “Okay, then what do I wanna do today?” So already today I, I’ve been to yoga, I went to I went to Savoy to get my favorite salad, I’m talking to Jennie Nash. I’m like, “This is a great day. I’m so glad I’m not in Washington DC.”Diana: Wait, is your favorite salad the kale blueberry? At Savoy? It’s ... No. Yeah I go s- I go to the salad bar because they, I think they’re the only salad bar that has like the, the most amazing salmon, like in the salad bar. Like, you can just like, you know, put wild salmon- Pile it on. Okay, okay ... yeah, pile it on. So that’s what I do.Diana: Yeah. All right. We’re talking about [00:14:00] a little deli in our town. Um- Down in Santa Barbara. You gotta go ... I mean, it does sound like a great day. And then- Yeah ... we’re recording a podcast, ‘cause why not? So that, um, that’s really instructive. You, you sort of let the struggle be, and, and then you said being solid on your feet and not spiraling into the blame, um, of it.Diana: Yeah. Choosing ... You know, you get to be the chooser of the story that you tell. And, um, and so, you know, choose, choose ones that are kind and ones that are, you know, for the most part true, but also ones that are helpful and timely. Yeah. And then when you do that, you can kind of n- weather stuff a little bit better I think.Diana: And I’m curious what happens if this kind of thing happens to you and other people say, “You’re so disorganized. You need to slow down. You need to stop saying yes to so many things.” What do you say about that? ‘Cause that happened to you. Jennie, are you... I was gonna say, are you, are you only asking that because this happens to you?[00:15:00]Diana: Yes. Does this happen to you sometimes, Jennie? It happens to me all the time. What do you do when people ask you that? Oh, dang. You’re putting it on me. Um, I usually totally take it in and think, “Oh yeah, there’s something wrong with me. I should say, say no more often. I should go slower. I should, uh, should, should, should.”Diana: Mm-hmm. I do. That’s what I tend to do. Yeah. And then what are the, the costs and consequences of that for you? I lose faith in my own knowing, my own intuition. I like to be busy, I like to be challenged, I like to have all the balls in the air. Um, and so I lose faith in that, and it doesn’t feel good. Uh, then I, I also feel like I have to get defensive, um, why I do that.Diana: And, uh, so then I’ll bring that defensiveness into my relationships. So it, it impacts me both inside and it impacts my [00:16:00] relationships. And then I think I second-guess the next time I say yes to something that feels like too much. So there’s like- Mm ... a lot of repercussions. Mm-hmm. There’s like dominoes falling from, from that.Diana: Mm-hmm. And then if I were to say, that happens to me, you know, what you just described in terms of people are telling me, “Diana, Diana, you’re doing too much. You’re taking on too much. You’re, um, juggling too much. That’s why you messed up the plane ticket. You need to be more organized”- Yeah ... what advice would you tell me?Diana: Gosh. Um I don’t think that I would’ve gotten to where we got together. Um, I think, I think I might be a person who would say that, who would say, “Yeah, you’re moving too fast. What are you, what are you doing?” Hmm. “Slow down. Take a minute.” I think I- Mm-hmm ... I think I might say that [00:17:00] to you. Mm-hmm. That was in fact the first thought that came through my head when you told me what happened to you.Diana: I was like, “She’s doing too much. She’s ta- she’s got too many irons in the fire.” Mm-hmm. I put that... I did have that blame thought. Mm-hmm. Um- So it’s a, it’s a really interesting thing, this, you know, sort of the blame, or even if you’re s- what you’re saying has a, has a kernel of truth to it. When you tell it to somebody, you don’t necessarily get back, “Oh, you’re right, Jennie.”Diana: What you get back is what, what you just described, which I said, what are the costs and consequences to you? Well, I go into either self-blame, blame, or defensiveness, right? So the question becomes, if, if there’s a kernel of truth or maybe there is a shift in, in, you know, I’m juggling too much, that’s why I booked two plane tickets, yeah, you know.Diana: Um, or you’re juggling too much and your friends are noticing it. There’s also another kernel of truth in there, which is there’s a reason why you’re juggling all those things. Yeah. And, [00:18:00] and, and I would be... I’d actually go for that first. Hmm. So I would go for, in, in asking of you, uh, if I were your friend and I was noticing this, or if a friend were noticing it of you, to ask yourself, why am I juggling so much?Diana: Hmm. What is important to me? Like, what, what... You know, why are you so busy, Jennie? What’s important to you? Oh, gosh. Um, I feel like I could answer that very easily. I hate missing opportunities, and the opposite of that is I love seizing opportunities. Things, really good things have come to me from... I’m gonna use the word impulsive, and there’s a reason I’m using that word, but impulsive decisions.Diana: A lot of what I’ve built has, has come from that. I’m really good at that. Um, I think I’m good at juggling a lot of things. Uh, I like the feeling of, [00:19:00] uh, fast decision-making. I think I do better making decisions under pressure than I do when I have a lot of time. Yeah. So there’s a lot of reasons why I like having a lot of irons in the fire.Diana: Mm-hmm. It doesn’t scare me. It usually energizes me if I were, uh, able to do them all without the blame or the defensiveness. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It’s a quality I actually like about myself. Yeah. I, I, I’ve, I’ve gotten a sense of that from you, and there’s also a bit of... And I’m willing to have the, I’m okay maybe more than some other people may be okay with having a little bit of that, you know- a, a tousled hair experience of things are kinda moving at me quickly, fast, you know?Diana: And, and there’s a little bit of feeling like I’m kinda juggling too much. Like I- Yeah ... I’m willing to tolerate [00:20:00] that feeling because of these other things that you, that you care about. And the, it’s the, it’s the second arrow. It’s the layer on top of the blame and defensiveness that is the problem, not necessarily the layer of, I juggle a lot, it’s kind of a mess sometimes, and then it’s also exhilarating and I, I, I, it’s impulsive and, and I found that that’s actually a secret to my success.Diana: Yeah. And there’s, um, it’s, there’s a, there’s a thing in psychology where they talk about, um, are you willing to pay the price? And what that means is like, you know, for example in, in a relationship, you’re never gonna get everything that you want. Are you willing to- You’re not ... you’re, are you willing to pay the price of like, you know, he has all of these qualities, but then there’s this aspect of him that wouldn’t, you know, he has that too.Diana: Am I, am I willing for, because I love all of this, to also have that? Yeah. And if you love the intensity and the, um, uh, um, you know, the, [00:21:00] the level of feeling and impulsivity, then you have to be willing to pay the price of sometimes things being in that tousled hair state. And I’m, and I’m, I’m the same. You know?Diana: I don’t, I’m not meticulous with things like plane tickets. Yeah. I don’t spend my... Like, my husband, he would spend like, you know, double check, triple check, put in the code for everything kinda guy. Yeah. Make sure we don’t have any credits. I’m like, I’m just... I’m just booking my flight ... No, what, what’s the harm?Diana: What, what harm was done? Yeah. No one died.Diana: And I can pivot quickly, so it’s fine. You know? And, and that’s, so I’m willing to pay the price. I love that so much. So that’s the story. The story is not, look at Diana, she’s so chaotic. Look at Jennie, she’s got too many irons in the fire. It’s we’ve chosen to pay that price- Mm-hmm ... for being this way, for working this way, for moving through the world this way.Diana: I love that. Yeah. [00:22:00] Yeah, absolutely. I love that. Well, I feel like that is a great place to end, and you get to continue on with your great day, ‘cause it’s still the afternoon, so who knows what will come out of this day for you. Maybe something good. Yeah, surprise. Thanks for joining us, and have a good, uh, conference.Diana: And for our listeners, until next time, stop playing small and write like it matters.Diana: The #amwriting podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output because everyone deserves to be paid for their [00:23:00] work This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Paid subscribers can join us in the chat to respond to this invitation! #AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.If you haven’t caught episode 522 yet to hear me and Stuart Wakefield talk about his marketing efforts for his latest book, you can catch up below. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

In this Margin Notes episode of the #amwriting podcast, host Jennie Nash talks with book coach and author Stuart Wakefield about approaching marketing as a creative project by making joyful “artifacts” that expand a story world rather than simply asking readers to buy a book. Wakefield shares his creative background, a past period when his creative practice stopped, and how he now immerses himself in projects tied to his latest novel, All Hands on Dick, set in 1956 aboard the cruise ship SS Celestial. Stuart describes the book’s comedic, queer, mid-century influences and its characters, explains creating items like a 3D-printed ocean liner and a hand-cut 10-inch vinyl record featuring AI-assisted big band songs, and discusses building an animated music video. Nash also previews upcoming episodes with Wakefield on using the Blueprint method to develop a series, as he launches his trilogy A Gay Odysea.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Connect with Stuart* Visit his book coaching site* Read his books* Watch his music videoTranscriptJennie: [00:00:00] Hi, I’m Jennie Nash, and you’re listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. Hi, everyone. This is Margin Notes, the part of the podcast where we’re talking about the big decisions writers face in their work or creative lives.I’m here today to talk with Stuart Wakefield about making marketing a creative project. And you’ve heard from Stuart before. He has coached on the podcast, and we’ll link to that episode in the show notes. He also will be in episodes to come, which we’ll talk about in a moment, and Stuart is a fascinating individual who’s had a long career in all kinds of things, including TV writing, playwriting, a long stint in IT.What? [00:01:00] And, and now Stuart works with me at Author Accelerator, and he runs his own book coaching business at thebookcoach.co. Welcome, Stuart.Stuart: Thank you for having me, Jennie. I’m really excited to talk to you today.Jennie: I’m excited too. This is such a, such a interesting topic. So the reason this came up is that Stuart launched a new book, which he’ll tell you about in a moment, which is part of a series, which he’ll tell you about in a moment, and I started seeing out on social media just all this really fun content that he was producing.And obviously then I would get to talk to him at work, and I- he just would have so much joy, and then he would say, “Oh, let me show you this other thing.” And when I talk about fun content, I’m talking about, like, music videos, cartoons, animated [00:02:00] little shorts. He wrote a song. He, he’s writing a music video. He 3D printed a ship.He printed a vinyl record. I mean, it’s bonkers. And so I just wanted to dig into this about what are you doing, and why is it creating so much joy, and what can we learn from it? So that’s what we’re here to talk about.Stuart: Oh, oh, oh. Right. Okay. So, so in, in my creative practice, I have always enjoyed... You know, I started acting when I was five, um, so I’ve always been in kind of around the theater, even when my kind of IT career and project management career was all kind of going on.So I’ve always enjoyed that. I, um, started a, a- A degree in fashion design. Um, after a year at art college, I, you know, carried on acting and then had a break in 2003. Uh, if I’m really honest with you, I had a breakdown and- Yeah ... m- [00:03:00] my creative practice just stopped. And about six years later in 2009, I started writing.And you know, I’ve always been a creative person, and I’ve always been a storyteller, and I tend, but I tend to do it in a very short, concise way. So the shortest piece of fiction I’ve sold was 50 words.Jennie: That’s short.Stuart: Right. Okay. So I, um- Have had like a, a side art project. It’s called The Queer Historian of Emotional Truths.Um, and there is a website that sits with that, and the idea is that the queer historian has found artifacts, um, and he is curating those and sharing those on the website, and they might be voicemails, they might be found photos, found objects. And when I got my... So I really love that kind of very small to- storytelling, those, those really poignant moments, [00:04:00] as opposed to great big, long stories.Um, I recently s- sold a story to Divine Femins- Feminine Publishing as well, um, which is again, it’s cozy sci-fi, but it’s very much the small kind of human moments.Jennie: Right.Stuart: And I found that after writing this book, I became so invested in the world that I wanted to do small art projects that kind of lived within that world.So that’s where this has come from. I, I don’t see it as marketing. I see it as telling those smaller stories within that wider world that really convey the joy that not only have I got from writing that, that work, but I think lives on after the reader closes and reads that last, that last page and then closes the book.Jennie: Well, this is why it’s so exciting and inspiring to me, because so often when writers talk about marketing or think about marketing, they’re thinking [00:05:00] about, “Buy my book. Buy my book. Buy my book,” and that’s not at all where you’re coming from. I suspect... Well, with this current project, it’s, it’s brand new, but I suspect that that’s where it’s gonna go, right?That it’s impossible to imagine sh- that you’re gonna share all these creative acts and artifacts and not get people... I was gonna say on board, but that’s gonna be like- The, it’s a- ItStuart: is set follow... It’s set on board a, a ocean liner. Right. So on, on board is great.Jennie: Right? Like the, how could those two things not happen?That, I guess what I’m getting at is I, I often think that the results people want don’t usually come from the path that they think is gonna get them there. Right. The results come from doing the work you love, writing the story you want, and in your case, making this a creative project. Do you- Yes ... do you think that’s [00:06:00] true?Stuart: Yeah. You know, very much so, and I was discussing this with a marketing book coach, uh, Rebecca Grogan.Jennie: Mm-hmm.Stuart: Highly recommend her to any romance writer. So that’s beckythebookcoach.com, and, you know, we got talking about creative projects and how much I don’t really like marketing. I always thought it was a very British thing not to like marketing, but the more and more US writers I, I meet and fellow coaches, again, you know, marketing can feel like something unsavory.Jennie: RightStuart: And what I really want to do is show people these cool things I’ve made and invite them very much into the world. Because what I do in any of my creative writing projects, I have objects that represent what I’m writing on my desk. So, um, I have a book that’s set in 1907, so I got [00:07:00] artifacts from, from that time.I have a book that’s set, well hopefully coming out in a few months, which is, uh, set in Madrid in 1958, and one of the characters works in a print shop. So I have wooden blocks, wooden printing blocks that spell out this character’s names. So-Jennie: Oh,Stuart: that’sJennie: so cool.Stuart: So as I switch from project to project, I bring those things and put those onto my desk, and I just find it helps me get into that head space-Jennie: YeahStuart: and that emotional connection.Jennie: Yeah.Stuart: So because I still have a, a very strong emotional connection to what it is that I’ve just published, and I know there are two more books coming, I really wanted to sit and kind of immerse myself in that world. And the first object I created was this 3D printed ocean liner, because that has what has been sitting on my desk while I’ve been writing this first book.Jennie: So when you say you 3D printed it, how did you go about [00:08:00] that?Stuart: Okay, so I-Jennie: Oh, and, and let’s just describe, since people can’t see it. It’s, it’s about like eight inches, 10 inches? Uh, yeah, yeah. So- And it’s... Is it made of plastic?Stuart: Yeah. So it’s 3D printed, uh, so it’s kind of a, a resinous kind of plastic that’s- Yeahjust melted as it comes through the head. And yeah, so I found, uh, a model online, and then I... My comput- my computer modeling is not great. It’s one of the few things that I’d see that I don’t really, you know, have a skill at. So I contacted a friend and said, you know, “Can you modify this for me? Um, can you change the name on the side of the ship?”‘Cause the model that was already there, um, had a different name. And yeah, you know, we, we worked on the look and the feel, and then when we were ready, we found someone else to, to actually print it up. So for me, it’s just a lovely object, and I know I’m going to be able to take it to book fairs. There’s one coming up at the end of September- So I have little [00:09:00] wooden life rings, we have ship’s rope, I have a reception bell.Um, so all of these artifacts, again, when s- if somebody comes to my stand at the book fair, they will be walking into the world of the SS Celestial.Jennie: That’s so fun. Okay, so let’s, let’s talk about the, this, the ship and what happens on the ship and the story and the whole thing, ‘cause it’s just too much fun.So it’s, um, set in 1956 on a cruise ship. The name of the book is called All Hands on Dick, and it is currently out. So why don’t you tell us about first All Hands on Dick, and then the series that it, um, begins?Stuart: Okay. So All Hands on Dick follows cruise director Dick Dockery, and Dick is one of those people that puts the passengers’ needs before his own.So, and he is very good at his job But on the voyage from New York to Bermuda, [00:10:00] a slightly seedy kind of underground guy with a reputation called Van Valentine boards the ship. And Van very quickly identifies that what Dick is doing, that he’s fulfilling everybody’s needs but his own. So throughout a...It’s very much a comedy of manners. So throughout that and some farcical moments and lots of beautiful sub-stories, um, Dick eventually learns that being needed is not the same as being loved.Jennie: Very, very, uh, profound message in a very fun setting. So some of the other characters, tell us about some of these other characters.Stuart: Okay. So we have, uh, newlyweds, uh, Buck and Kitty Devereaux. And Buck seems very nervous in his marriage, so one of the kind of mysteries is what is Buck hiding? And then eventually we start to learn that actually Kitty might be hiding some- something as well. We have [00:11:00] Aurelia Cashmere, who is a sort of a, a grande dame, I guess.She, she’s first class. Um, she has come on board with a secret that she’s going to reveal something when they get to Bermuda. We have, uh, Tony’s sidekick, uh, Bunny Marlowe. We have a steward who seems to know everything called Tony Two Towels. We have a light-fingered magician called Pip Larkin. Um, and- ThisJennie: is just so great.And you s-Stuart: And then lounge singer... Sorry, then we have a l- a lounge singer called Rex Devereaux. Uh, and he has a on-off affair with his piano player, Joey Lamplight.Jennie: Okay. So you shared with me that, um, you loved The Love Boat, the, the TV show, right? Oh,Stuart: it’s one of my... It, it’s just fantastic. And I, I tell you what happened, I love the movie An Affair to Remember-Jennie: Mm-hmmStuart: with Deborah Kerr and Cary Grant. [00:12:00] And you know, I was... My mom loved kind of ‘40s, ‘50s movies. So she kind of introduced me to those when I was growing up, ‘cause I was born in the early ‘70s. So you know, sh- I was kind of weaned on, on movies by watching those. And I loved watching The Love Boat, and more recently...I say recently, it’s a few years old now, but the movie Down with Love, uh, with Renee Zellweger.Jennie: Yeah.Stuart: And I watched that and it reminded me of the Doris Day, Rock Hudson kind of sex comedies.Jennie: Yeah.Stuart: So the vision for All Hands on Dick and the series that it fits into, um, very much came from those, those influences, and the love of, of the, all of those things.Jennie: Well, and it has that, and has that feel. So we’ll talk about the whole series in a minute, but some of the other things that you made artifacts that you made, uh, well, there was a song and then there was a record, [00:13:00] and then there was a music video. So how much time have you spent making all these things?Stuart: I, I, I think, I think that wh- what, what happened was, I, I, I’d finished the book and I w- I was, I, something had happened.I think, I think an old Drifters song came up on my, um, Irene’s, uh, list, and I’d been listening to... We have a, a TV, um, advert that’s on in the UK that, uh, has the song, um, Beyond the Sea.Jennie: Oh, sure, sure.Stuart: It’s Bobby... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I was, “Oh, okay.” So I knew that Rex, the lounge singer, one of his storylines is that there’s a song that he can’t sing.Jennie: Oh.Stuart: It is too emotional for him, and he’s desperately trying to get his career back on track and, but there’s this one song that he just cannot sing, but it’s one of the most powerful songs that could potentially bring his [00:14:00] career back. And I’d been thinking about songs and, you know, again, my mom was just a very, very funny wom- woman and, you know, we would make songs up together.And I wrote some jokey lyrics, uh, called, for a big band number sung by Bunny, called Everybody Needs Dick. And, and, you know, uh, you, the lyrics are, are, you know, a bit silly here and there, but, uh, I just had fun with it.Jennie: Yeah.Stuart: You know? So none of this was planned. Um, now I know some people are gonna be really anti-AI, and I, I totally get that, but this was for my personal consumption.So I put those lyrics into an, a, an AI and said like, “Can you write a big band, you know, backing track to go with this?” Just as an experiment, and what came out just really took me by surprise. So-Jennie: It’s amazing. I mean, it sounds like a fully produced Andrews Sister song.Stuart: Yes, yes. Love The [00:15:00] Andrews Sisters.Yeah. And then I got thinking about Rex’s song, and I thought, “What kind of avoidant thing would Rex sing?” So I wrote some lyrics for that and, um, again, put it into the same AI, AI, and it came out with a couple of versions, and one of them immediately made me start to cry. Oh, no. And I thought, “Okay, if I have an emotional connection to this song, then I need to do something with these tracks.”So I’d been kind of living in the world of the SS Celestial, which is the, the ship that the story is set on, and got to thinking about kind of souvenirs and, and would the ship sell souvenirs, and what kind of things might they sell? And I thought, “Okay, if I’m gonna have an object that’s all my own, then as my kind of reward for finishing the book,” I thought, “wouldn’t it be great to have a vinyl record?”So then I get into researching how much music can you get on, you know, a seven-inch, a 10-inch, [00:16:00] 12-inch record. Settled on a 10-inch record because, um, Rex’s song is six minutes. It won’t sit on the seven-inch. Then I had to do my research. You know, were 10-inch singles available in the US in the 1950s? Turns out they still were.Um, then I got to designing the record covers and the labels. I found a company in, uh, the, in London who handcraft. So rather than press a record, they hand-cut it.Jennie: Oh,Stuart: wow. Um, found a company to do that. And yeah, you know, a week later I had in my hands a, a, a 10-inch record, and that is just for my personal consumption, but, you know, I will share that on,um, you know,uh, social media. I will play parts of the record on social media. And yeah, that’s where I kind of got to in there, and I just wanted to share with people like, “Oh, look, I made this cool thing.”Jennie: Yeah, yeah.Stuart: And-Jennie: I mean, it’s so cool, and [00:17:00] when... We’ll share, hopefully, uh, uh, cover a picture of the, um, m- the, uh, record so, in the show notes so people can see.But when, when you share it and talk about it, again, you’re just filled with so much joy, like a kid. Yeah. Like, “Look at this.” Yeah. “Look at what I made.” And that has to feel really good, right?Stuart: It, it really, really does. And, and, you know, my family, immediate and wider, are going through some really difficult times at the moment.We started kind of March last year, and, um, I won a, a, a grant from the Arts Council here in the UK to, to really help me kind of zone in on my playwriting.Jennie: Right.Stuart: And a full-length play that I’ve written is, it’s very dark, and it deals with some very dark kind of, uh, themes and issues. And a friend of mine had said to me, she said, “There’s something wrong with you.There’s, [00:18:00] there’s, like, this little light that has gone out.”Jennie: Oh.Stuart: And she said, “I think you should get back to writing comedy.” Um, when I wrote for TV, that was comedy. Um, my last full-length novel, you know, had lots of comedic stuff going on. Um, and she’s like, “Why don’t you, you consider going back to comedy?”She’d read a lot of my writing when I was doing my master’s degree, and she said, “I, I really think you need that, that kind of lift.” So when I was thinking about what to write, I was like, “Okay, I need to do something that, that just really sits with me.” I’m not... You know, writing a novel is a big commitment, and you need to be around people that you kind of really love.Jennie: Yeah.Stuart: And I wanted these people to- So many queer stories I think are written from a place of trauma.Jennie: Mm-hmm.Stuart: And I really wanted a group of people who had relatively low stakes threat, but [00:19:00] could really live and breathe in their environment and find joy. And that’s exactly as passengers are disembarking at the end of this, this book, that’s, you know, there is hope and there is joyJennie: And I imagine that’s what you want your reader to feel.Stuart: Um, uh, a- absolutely. I’ve absolutely written it for people who, you know, to take on a take on a cruise- Right ... or read on the beach. And, you know, I think it’s fair to say that, you know, politically and, um, literally the world is on fire, right?Jennie: Yeah.Stuart: Yeah. You know, we’re seeing huge fires all over, you know, we’re seeing political, just appalling political stuff.And I, and I just thought I, I need this story and I need these people, and I think other people out there need just some fun and some joy and some lightness.Jennie: So tell me about, um, right before we r- started [00:20:00] recording, you said you were almost finished with the music video. Tell me about that.Stuart: Right. Okay. So, uh, Everybody Needs Dick is a huge, joyous, big band number, and I was creating a little short animation to go on, um, social media, and also I wanted the challenge of learning something new from an IT point of view.Jennie: Mm-hmm.Stuart: And it kind of grew, ‘cause I was putting some music to the, the reel on Inst- on Instagram, and I just thought, “Hmm, this could... Like, I really like the results of what I’ve been able to animate here. Like, maybe this could be something bigger.” And I used to work for Turner Broadcasting Systems, which is now, like, part of Warner Brothers Discovery.Was there for about three years working mainly on the Cartoon network side, and I did some work with the animators of The Amazing World of Gumball, which is a very [00:21:00] popular show, um, in the US, and I kind of thought, like, maybe there’s something in this. Maybe I could put all of the Everybody Needs Dick story into, like, an MGM musical number.Jennie: Right.Stuart: And like, so again, it, it captures the look and the feel and the tone of the joy of the book as well. So I’m 40 seconds away from finishing. It takes about an hour to get 14 kind of decent seconds. And I... But I’m, I’m exhausted, but what’s keeping me going is watching it over and over again and feeling emotional, feeling that emotional connection to the relationships that are developing, even just through the video i- itself.Jennie: Right. AndStuart: what- So again, for me, it’s just immersive.Jennie: What, um... When you approach Something like that, and you, you know, obviously we’re all, uh, learning, if any of us listening use AI for [00:22:00] various things, we’re all learning as we go d- because it’s so new. How do you approach the technology side of it? Like, in addition to the creative part, you have to figure things out, right?Figure out how to do it.Stuart: Yeah. I mean, you know, I spend a lot of time engineering prompts for all different sorts of things. So for my own writing, um, I have a prompt that runs through my chapters and looks at all of the nasty habits that I have.Jennie: Yeah.Stuart: And I was talking to another coach the other day, and I was like, “Let me, let me just do a quick word count.”And that search, that, um, AI prompt, is 9,510 words.Jennie: Wow.Stuart: So I might have spent a long time working on that, that prompt, but it really helps me sit back, look at my chapters, really understand what’s working and what’s not working, and then from my past mistakes and patterns of writing, it helps me see those and that I’ve fallen back into to some of those [00:23:00] habits.Jennie: Yeah.Stuart: So, you know, I, I like to think I’m relatively good. Um, but again, some of the graphics that I was using on Instagram were... They were by real people.Jennie: Yeah.Stuart: And I thought, “Well, that’s not really the kind of look I’m after. I’m kind of after that... For the, for the video, I’m after that mid-century American illustrated look that is somewhere between J.C.Leyendecker’s illustrations of the sort of ‘20s, and the illustrations that you would expect to see in an American magazine in the mid-’50s.”Outro: Right.Stuart: So I worked and worked and worked, you know, with an AI tool on getting the look right, and then locking that look in. Then I was able to take the images from Instagram and say, “Okay, what would those character models look like if they were in dr- had been drawn in this style?”So again, we worked through those looks, um, you know, how smooth their skin was, what the kind of folds in their clothes should look like. [00:24:00] You know, we did a lot of work on that, and then it was really down to the things that I kind of learned at Warner Brothers and watching the extras on DVDs about storyboarding, um, the animations, and then really teaching myself the best way to use, um, the AI that I was using to get the best kind of effects out of it.And I- So it sound- You know... Hmm.Jennie: It, it sort of sounds like play.Stuart: It is. It really is. And I, you know, I, I love learning. I loved learning to be a book coach. I’m always doing some kind of course, whether it be creative or, you know, to do with writing. And, you know, I like a challenge, and teaching- Yeah ... me this new technology, I mean, I’m 54, and, you know, there’s always that risk that the kids are gonna com- going to kind of overtake you.Jennie: Sure. Uh,Stuart: but I’m very curious about the world. You know, I l- I like my K-pop. I’m very excited today ‘cause Hatsize, you know, new EP is out. Um, I’ve had many a conversation with a 13-year-old who’s just shocked that I know anything about K-pop- ... [00:25:00] let alone I’m kind of into different bands. So, you know, I’m interested in, in pop culture and learning new technologies and, you know, it has been a huge, huge challenge for me to do this.But again, it’s playing in this world, and I’ve also noticed as I’m doing these other creative projects, because I’m still mentally in the world, some of the stories for the later books are, are coming to me.Jennie: Yeah. Yeah. So let’s talk about the series. At what point did you decide that All Hands on Dick was going to be a series?Stuart: Pretty much from the beginning. I-Jennie: Okay ...Stuart: I, I... So the series is called A Gay Odyssey, and that’s- AndJennie: it’s, I have to spell it. It’s- Yeah ... O-D-Y-S-E-A.Stuart: Yes. So it- it’s A Gay Odyssey, and I call it, like, a naughty cal adventure. So- So, you know, I, I very much saw this as the ship as a [00:26:00] container.Jennie: Mm-hmm.Stuart: Okay? Quite literally.Right. But also like a story engine.Jennie: Right.Stuart: So I thought this is, this is a world in miniature, and I wanted to have one overarching love story that covers all three books. But like The Love Boat, I wanted that episodic nature to it as well, because I knew I wanted to bring in different characters and different crew.So A Gay Odyssey is, it’s a trilogy of mid-century American queer romantic novels that also examine, uh, the life we live as performance as well as the life we live in private.Jennie: Mm-hmm. So that’s where the, the lounge singer and the piano player, the literal- Yeah ... performers and the magician, as well as the just regular people who are performing different roles and things.Ab-Stuart: a- absolutely. You know, Buck is, is performing kind of the dutiful husband, and that’s clearly not what’s going [00:27:00] under, on under the surface. And, you know, Kitty is very much wanting to go out, you know, understand what’s w- I want to say in quotes, “wrong with him.”Jennie: Right.Stuart: And yet Kitty starts to believe that actually she might not entirely be the person she thinks she is.So again, it’s, some of it’s around self-discovery, um, and some of it is just how you move in the world when the world is telling you you shouldn’t be who you are. I mean, it’s coming off the back of the Lavender Scare- Mm-hmm ... in the US, um, that Eisenhower signed in 1953 where queerJennie: people-Stuart: I’m not familiar withJennie: that.Stuart: Oh, okay. So I think it was Order 105410or s- or, or something. But Eisenhower signed it, signed it in 1953, and it basically meant that nobody, no gay man or lesbian could work in a federal job.Jennie: Oh, I, I was not aware of that.Stuart: So, you know, thousands and thousands of people were put [00:28:00] out of employment in the US. Wow. So it’s coming off the back of that Lavender Scare, um, and it was very much treated like they were a security risk.Jennie: Wow. Um, I’m not gonna get really deep into the series because you and I are gonna do a deep dive on, uh, series development. Um, and for our listeners, Stuart is obviously, um, I would say one of the world’s foremost experts on my blueprint method. H- how’s that for a title?Stuart: That’s very kind of you.Jennie: Um, he teaches it, he coaches it, he holds the high bar for certification that we have at Author Accelerator around the blueprint and other things.But one of the things that he has really done is, is to do a very deep dive on understanding how to use the blueprint [00:29:00] to develop a series, and how you think about one book, how you think about the whole series, the, the order of things, the, the way this tool can be used in this way, and his work on this is, uh, blew me away truly.So I’ve asked Stuart to come back onto the podcast, and we’re going to do a series of two, uh, podcasts, where in one we’re gonna talk about the overview of how to use the blueprint to develop a series, and it can be any genre, uh, any- Mm-hmm ... fictional genre, and then we’re gonna do a second podcast on ... Now I can’t remember what it was, but I think it wasOh, the story engine, and you, and you referenced that with, for your series, the, the ship and, and this container and how to develop a story engine. [00:30:00] And this will also all lead to a special offer to work directly with Stuart on a series, so, um, using the blueprint. So all of that, I’m making all these big promises.I hope they all come true.Stuart: They will. They will.Jennie: Um, all of this is just, uh, laying the groundwork for, for folks who are interested in designing, developing, building a series, and, um, doing it with somebody who has this incredible creative and playful mind, and you can get a sense of the way Stuart thinks and, and works and, um, of the things that he makes.Uh, can you tell us, Stuart, w- if people wanna read All Hands on Deck right now, where can they go? If people wanna find you, and how on earth can they see and hear all this cool stuff you’ve made? Tell us all the things.Stuart: Okay. [00:31:00] So, uh, in terms of, obviously you can find me at thebookcoach.co. On Instagram, I’m Mr.S Wakefield. Um, so that’s where you’ll be able to see where I share the cool things that I’ve made. Um, and then in terms of buying, I mean, all good bookstores. I’ve already had some, some podcast listeners of mine send me pictures of them holding their, uh, books in, you know, American bookstores, which is fantastic to see.Uh, so yeah, you know, everywhere that you can buy a book. It’s not just Amazon, boo, hiss. Um, you know, you should be able to get it in all, all, you know, good, good bookstores.Jennie: Excellent. So, uh, say your, say that Instagram again, just so people can hear.Stuart: Uh, it’s Mr. S Wakefield.Jennie: Okay, great. Well, um, we have much more to talk about, and we, and we will be talking about, but this was just so fun to hear your process and this, um, this sense of marketing as a [00:32:00] creative project.And it’ll be really fun to follow along and check in with you in our next episodes about where all of this stands as well.Stuart: Great. Thank you.Jennie: Thanks for joining us, Stuart.Stuart: Okay. Take care, Jennie. Bye.Jennie: And for our listeners, thanks for listening. Now let’s get back to work and finish what matters mostOutro: The hashtag amwriting podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output because everyone deserves to be paid for their [00:33:00] work This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Jennie filmed this quick video message for everyone about today’s episode! Paid subscribers, come into the chat to respond! (Not a paid subscriber yet? That’s okay! You can become one today!)#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Host Jennie Nash talks with novelist and journalist Caroline Madden about why writers crave traditional publishing deals and how that desire can become an unhealthy obsession tied to external validation and “pick me” energy. Madden recounts a 20-year path to publication, including losing two agents and dying on submission, then changing her writing through Lisa Cron’s Story Genius, Nash’s Blueprint for a Book, and Donald Maass’s Writing the Breakout Novel Workbook; her later two novels earned deals, including her debut The Marriage Vendetta (HarperCollins) and a forthcoming book. They discuss how redefining “why,” setting a bigger North Star (for Madden, contributing to feminist issues), releasing desperation, and defining success concretely can stabilize writers through rejection and shifting goalposts. Madden advises seeking blunt, market-informed feedback from industry professionals and emphasizes control through craft and writing rather than chasing validation.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Books Mentioned in this Episode* Story Genius by Lisa Cron* Writing the Breakout Novel by Donald Maass* The Marriage Vendetta by Caroline MaddenThe Substack Exchange We Couldn’t Find — We Found It!Blueprint Courses👉 Enroll in the Fiction Blueprint Course👉 Enroll in the Memoir Blueprint Course👉 Enroll in the Nonfiction Blueprint CourseTranscriptJennie: [00:00:00] Hi, I’m Jennie Nash, and you’re listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. Hey, everyone. It’s Jennie, and I have a really fun episode today. I’m speaking with novelist Carolyn Madden, and we just had a fun interaction on Substack about a really profound thing, and we actually just tried to find our interaction, and we’re unable to do so.So we’re going to have to recreate what it was. But the topic that we’re talking about is why writers, especially debut writers, but all writers, so desperately want traditional publishing deals, what that desire is, what that feeling is. And I saw something that Carolyn wrote [00:01:00] on Substack and, and just was like, “This, this.Why is not everybody talking about this?” So we’re going to talk about this. So welcome.Caroline: Thank you so much, Jennie. I’m really thrilled to be here, especially because, um, I have your Blueprint for a Book, a nonfiction book that I ordered. I suppose it must have been maybe 10 years ago.Jennie: Oh my gosh. Well, that was whatCaroline: was- 10...Would it be 10 years ago?Jennie: That was what was so... Part of what was so fun was I- Yeah ... I didn’t know who you were, and I responded to this note. And you said, “Oh, I, I know who you are. I have your book.” And, um- Yeah ... and here we are. So thatCaroline: was- And you didn’t know that... Yeah, you didn’t know because I do recommend it a lot.So I, I... That’s so funny. Um, so it’s a pure coincidence. And I will say that this is... There was like a turning point. Just to go back a little bit, I’ve had a very, very long, uh, trip, uh, circuitous, scenic route to being published. So [00:02:00] my debut novel, The Marriage Vendetta, was published last year by Harper Collins.But... And it’s about a woman called Eliza, a musician. It’s based on a real-life character. But I have been working on some version of Eliza’s story for- 20 years now at this stage. So it took me more than a decade of actively trying to get published to get my book deal. And there was a pivotal moment where I was brought very low.It’s like in a novel where you have your dark night of the soul. I had lost my second agent. I had died on submission twice, and I thought, “I cannot keep doing this to myself because I will end up an old lady with a pile of unpublished novels. I either quit now or I do something differently.” And what I did was I was like, “Okay, I’m not giving up.”I went online, I ordered Story Genius by Lisa Cron, discovered you through that and bought this book, and I bought the Donald Maass book as well. And those three books were the turning points of my whole writing life, [00:03:00] and completely changed how I wrote. And if I hadn’t bought them, I would still be writing those pointless novels, Jennie, so I’m so grateful.Um-Jennie: Oh, my gosh. Wow. Yeah. So, so it was Lisa Cron’s Story Genius, and we have to get the name of Donald’s book, ‘cause it’s great and it’s ... I’m blanking on it right now. Um-Caroline: Yeah, the one that- I’m just- I have a couple, but it was, um, the How To ... I have it here. Yeah, Writing the Breakout Novel Workbook. This one.Okay. And the funny thing is, Jennie, I mean, last week when you, or the, whenever it was you contacted me, it was just such an exciting moment for me because that was such a pivotal book. But the weird thing is, and I just don’t know how this has happened, it’s like karma, I am now represented by the Donald Maass agency, but I never queried him.It was completely by accident, and I just think there’s some kind of karma at work. I don’t know. Um,Jennie: because ICaroline: haven’t- This isJennie: crazy.Caroline: It’s just gone crazy.Jennie: It’s crazy. Yeah. It’s ... So more than a dozen years trying to get published, but [00:04:00] you- Yes ... but you write for The Irish Times, is that correct? You’re a journalist.Caroline: Uh, yeah, so, and this kinda comes back to what I was talking about on Substack. I decided I wanted to be published when I was sort of mid-20s, like as a novelist, but I thought, “I’ll start small. I’ll just start trying to get some, um, some small bits and pieces published. Okay, I’ll try and write some journalism.”I, I was working as a tax consultant at the time and I wanted to get out of it. And what happened was I did get some articles published, and then it actually turned into a whole career in journalism that went on for a long time, and I wrote for The Irish Times for a long time, all with the aim of getting a novel published.Jennie: Wow.Caroline: Yeah.Jennie: So, um, I, I actually did a, a speed read of The Marriage Vendetta. It’s such a fun- Thank you ... kind of romp of a, a story. It’s- Yeah ... it’s, um, it’s very feminist Thank you. It’s, it’s, um- Yeah ... funny. It’s dark. It’s, [00:05:00] uh, satire. I, I heard some people describe it as domestic thriller. Yeah. Um, so this, this book has come out now, um, well, last year, and you have another coming out next year.Is-Caroline: Yeah ... is itJennie: in theCaroline: sameJennie: vein? Yeah. The same type of story?Caroline: It is. It’s a little bit darker, but it is, I suppose, a feminist thriller. And so in total, I’ve written four complete novels. Two of them I wrote before discovering Story Genius and Blueprint for a Book and Donald Maass, and those two died a death.They died. One, one of them died twice on submission, uh, two agents. The other one never even made it on submission. So I wrote two without this method, and I wrote two novels with this method, and both of those have got deals, so it was pivotal. But I think what we were talking about with Substack was I think I put something of saying like, it wasn’t until I stepped back and looked at this obsession that reallyI [00:06:00] mean, it took over my life. It, it’s why I went into journalism. I put everything into it, and I’ve met so many people, aspiring writers, who are the same. It’s a sort of fixation. It’s an obsession. And when I hit that low point of losing my second agent, I thought, “I’ve got to figure out what is driving this,” because this is destructive in my life.It’s actually an, an unhealthy addiction now at this point. And so obviously I thought, “Is it for the money?” Well, no, because you can make more money in practically any other line of work really, because I’d made no money from it. So- From being a lawyer ... so, youJennie: know. Yeah.Caroline: Yeah, so it’s, it is not for the money.Okay, is it, um- To get a- a- an audience, to get your message out there. Well, I’m a journalist, so it can’t be that. Oh. Um, and so what I did was I ... I was just like, “Th- th- this, it must be just for sort of, like, the validation.” So what I decided, and I thought, that’s not a very healthy motivator, because it’s never enough, really.You get the book deal, [00:07:00] then, well, someone else got a bigger book deal. So I thought, I’ve got to get, have a ... I, this is gonna destroy me. I, I either have to quit or figure out a healthier perspective of it. So what I did was I zoomed right back out, a bigger picture. Like, let’s say at the end of my days and I look back and I think, “Yeah, that was a life well spent,” what does that look like?And I thought, well, let’s say I have five novels published and they were okay, and people like them. Is that big enough? And I thought, that’s not big enough. And what was important to me at that time were a lot of feminist issues, gender equality, and I thought, if I could move the needle even in the tiniest way on any of those sort of issues, now that is a life well spent.And so then writing a novel just became, that became my North Star. And then I thought, well, writing a novel is only a part of that. Okay, if I get a, uh, get to write a feminist novel with a, with a sort of subtle message, fantastic. It’s part of it. But there are so many other ways within my control that I could try at [00:08:00] least to- Contribute to feminist causes or those sort of things.Um, so it gave me back a sense of control. It put things in perspective as well, and it also took the focus off, like, the ego. Like, I want to be accepted, you know? And it took the pressure off my novels, because I was fixating on ... And I know people who do this, and they say to me, “I won’t ... I, I don’t know what I will do if I don’t get a book deal.”And I think, I kind of think now that I was so desperate, and I think that desperation can repel success. You’re clinging so tight to it, and then you end up sort of chasing trends and, “Well, that might work. And publishers like m- might like that,” instead of actually taking a breath and looking inwards.Like, “What’s important to me? Like, what is the biggest moral dilemma I’m grappling with right now? What’s worth writing about? And okay, I want to get paid for my [00:09:00] novels, but I also need them to be about something important without being preachy.” You know, like, and the, the fiction is so powerful that you can, you know, suck people in with a story, and then they can go away with a different perspective if you’ve pulled it off.And I thought, “Well, that’s the power of fiction.” And I think when I got a healthier perspective on, like, not just, like, fixating on s- the success of my novels, that’s actually when I got the deal. Um, because I think we put so much pressure on our novels to make our lives perfect. And then I had had a, a nonfiction book published in my 20s, uh, and I knew what theAnd I had got to know an awful lot of writers. And I had seen that failure had been very hard for me, but I could see that success had been difficult for some authors I knew as well, because they might have had very quick initial success with their novels, but then maybe subsequent novels were not successful and they were struggling to get published again.[00:10:00]And they were actually more devastated than aspiring authors who hadn’t got a deal yet. So I had seen, like, if you pin all your hopes on a book deal, it’s gonna make your life perfect, and it’s all gonna be worth it, I could see what was, what had happened to people who had quick, quick early success and hadn’t experienced, like, the brut- brutal rejections-Jennie: YeahCaroline: and didn’t know what a difficult industry they were getting into.Jennie: Well- YouCaroline: know, IJennie: said- ... first of all, I, I just have to thank you for your honesty. It’s, it’s unusual to hear someone be so honest about- Well, you’re using the word obsession and- Mm-hmm ... and that you felt it was what was going to make your life worth living, and you used the word addiction.I think a lot of writers feel that, but they’re afraid to talk about how big and powerful those feelings are. So I- it’s incredible that you’re [00:11:00] doing that, and you’re, you’re using your Instagram and Substack to, to speak about these things. And I, of course, the reason it stopped me in my tracks was, of course, and I didn’t know that you had, had been reading The Blueprint, but the first step of The Blueprint is why are you even doing this?And- Yes ... you know, it w- I saw you answering why on a bigger plane. Mm. You know, my question is about why are you writing this book, but your question was why are you, why do you want to be published in this way? And that stepping back, you were sharing how you step back and, and really broke down, well, what could be driving this?And- Mm ... um, I, I agree that wh- where the writer sits in relation to their work matters, impacts the work. It just, it does. And- Yeah ... I see that all the time. I feel it [00:12:00] in, in my own self all the time. And, um, so I just think you’re doing a great service. Um, and I wonder if this type of conversation in your mind connects...You know, you talked about you wanted your books to move the needle in this, around ideas of feminism and, and empowerment for women. Do you feel that these conversations are doing the same thing? These conversations about- Do you mean in the senseCaroline: of- ...Jennie: about helping writers understand their, their deep motivations and, and their, um, relationship to rejection and does it, does it sit in the same-Caroline: I think soJennie: place?Caroline: I think so because I think it all comes from You spoke about it in another episode that I listened to. It’s this pick me girl energy. Yes. We want to be the good client for our agent, [00:13:00] and even I have it in the book where she goes to a marriage therapist. Irish fe- I’m from Ireland, and we have this tendency if we ever do actually go to therapy, we want to be their favorite client.We want to give the right answers, you know? And with our editors, we want to be the easygoing. We want to be picked. And so this was the opposite. This, these kind of conversations saying you have to be okay in yourself. Like, your worth does not depend on how many books you’re, you sell. You are still just as valuable whether you get a book deal or not, and there are things within your control.It’s kind of like, what’s in your control? And that is, like for ex- I’ll give an example. So when my book, The Marriage of Indebted, did actually go out on submission, this was my third time on submission, and it had been so harrowing the first two times, uh, because it had kind of coincided weirdly both times with going on maternity leave and leaving my job behind, this strange [00:14:00] feeling of being invisible, and then we both failed.So I thought, “I can’t go through that again.” And, uh, so I thought- It’s actually from your blueprint for a book. You had said, I think you had said, it’s probably from your book, that if you pick a sort of a, something that you’re important that you’re wrestling with, like an emotion or a moral choice that you’re wrestling with in your own life...Not that my book is in any way autobiographical, but the emotional wrestling and moral choices. Um, and if you work that out in your novel, then you could end up with figuring out something more important to your life than a book deal ever could be. You could have figured out a central dilemma in your own life.And so with each of my books now, I have done that. Like, I might disguise them with a metaphor, I might disguise them with completely different characters and even a different situation, but at the end of writing each of these books through that method, I come out with something more valuable than a book deal.And I [00:15:00] genuinely mean that. I don’t mean that in a sort of, like, we should all aspire to this. Really, I have figured out difficult things that I have wrestled with. And so when my book was about to go out on submission, I just said to myself, “That book kept me sane writing it through COVID. It kept, it literally kept me sane, the focus of writing it, and I figured out a lot of stuff, how I felt about things, what’s the right thing to do in situations.”And I thought, “This book really genuinely owes me nothing. Like, it, it saved my sanity and it’s changed my life writing it, and so it owes me nothing. It’s going out on submission, let it go where it will.” And I, then I just had this, I, I kind of genuinely meant it and I had this certainty it’s gonna happen with this book.It was almost like, ‘cause I’d given up the desperation, I put no kind of pressure on the book, I just felt the certainty it is gonna happen with this book. And within a couple of days, I, my agent had sent it out in Ireland, the UK, and the US. Within a couple of [00:16:00] days, bearing in mind this is after 15 years of rejection, editors started coming back They were all intere- not all interested, but so many were interested.We had so many Zoom calls with interested agents, editors. An editor we hadn’t even sent it to heard about it, got in touch, wanted to acquire it. Film agents, translation rights agents. It was just coming out of the woodwork. I don’t know, literary scouts heard about it, something. And then it went to auction in the US, and Harper Collins bought it, and then it was preempted in Ireland and the UK.And I’m not saying any of that to kind of boast or stick it in anyone who’s on submission, because I’ve been through the heartbreak, but just to show that sometimes when you change your perspective on the way, on what you’re hoping to get out of your book, then actually the success you wanted comes along.But I did feel, Jennie, when those, when that was coming in, it was that sort of destabilizing external validation, “Oh, I’m getting picked.” And I could feel that s- sucking you [00:17:00] back in again, like- Yeah ... “This feels good.” But it was that same sort of dangerous, addictive little high. And then if we hadn’t heard from anyone for a few days, I was like, “Well, where is everyone?”You know? I, I want that high back again, and I want more of that. And the thing is, you can’t control what editor’s gonna come back with offers. You can’t control any of that, and the only thing you can control is sitting down and writing. And I always feel a lot better. Like, I feel like sort of healthy mentally healthy after I’ve written a good section of a book and I feel happy about it.But, but the attention or the offers, it’s that old pick me thing firing up again. And then when that happens to you, you’re like, “I want it again. I want it again. I want more auctions.” It’s never enough. But luckily I was old enough, and I’d been through so much failure, and I had talked to so many authors, that I was like, “It’s okay.Whatever the book does, it’s fine. This will probably never, ever happen again in my life if I get one book published.” I did it, and [00:18:00] hopefully it connects with some people. That was the main thing. Um, what does success actually look like?Jennie: And when they... Yeah. So when the book actually came out, did you have that, a surge of that again?Like, “Oh, I hope it sells X number of copies. Maybe I’ll hit bestseller list. Maybe I’ll get the film deal.” Like, did it, did you, does it go in waves?Caroline: It did. Like, luckily I had had, um, that early nonfiction book that came out, and then another nonfiction book I edited, and I was very used to the experience of, uh, well, it shocked me at the time, but the book came out, we had a launch, we were in our 20s, so it was, like, a huge thing.This cliff edge the day after the launch, like we never, ever, ever heard from anyone from the publishers or the editors ever again. Um, it didn’t, the books didn’t make any splash. So that was my experience with getting published in nonfiction. So I had very low expectations. [00:19:00] Yeah. Like, I think, I shouldn’t say this, but I think the first nonfiction book, I mean, it...So I won’t even say what it sold. Like, it barely sold anything. Yeah. Like, we’re talking- Barely, yeah. I won’t even say. So then the second book sold a little bit more. Uh, and so I had very low expectations, but yeah, I could feel it coming back again. I could feel it coming back again. Um, but, um, by that, by the time it came out, I’d already got my second book deal, and it was a very, very tight deadline, and so I went straight into writing.I just buried myself in the new book-Jennie: In the newCaroline: book, yeah ... um, to distract myself from it. But yeah, again, you do... You, you know what it is, Jennie, it’s that pick me thing again. I want to be the good writer. I want to be the one that makes the editors happy. Um- Yeah, IJennie: wanna earn my advance back. I wanna be the-Caroline: YeahJennie: publisher, yeah. Yeah. It never ends, really, you’re right. And what I so value about [00:20:00] what you’re saying is that so often the advice to writers is just purely about persistence. Yeah. Keep going. Keep trying. Keep submitting. Find another agent. Find a, you know, don’t give up, uh, you know, f- send it out- Yeah ... 100 times.And- Yeah ... and you’re saying something very different, which is-Caroline: Yeah ...Jennie: change your mindset, and you can’t fake that. You can’t fakeCaroline: change your mindset. You can’t just say it to yourself. Yeah. Y- you can’t. And sometimes I, sometimes I say to my friends, “You keep going, keep going,” but I sometimes want to say to people- M- maybe, maybe you shouldn’t.Uh, because I came across this quote by, I think it was Philip Roth, the writer, and somebody in the audience said to him, “I’ve been writing and I can’t get published, and what do you think I should do?” And he said, “You should quit, and if you can be happy without writing, well, you’ve won, you’re happy. But if you can’t be [00:21:00] happy without writing, then you should keep going.”And so I do think you need to get something more out of it than just the idea of the book in a shop, and adulation, and bestsellers lists, and, um, proving people wrong. Even though I can say that does feel, that does feel good. But it’s never enough. It’s never enough. There will always be someone more successful with you.And once you get the deal, then you’re just terrified of, of g- of getting thrown back out of the industry. So I think you have to take some control over your happiness back. Um, and that’s easy to say, but I also do f- I re- and I wrote a post about this on Substack, I really do feel like, um, there is way too much emphasis on perseverance.And yes, I did persevere, but I didn’t just... Like, what happens with people if they don’t discover someone who can help them to improve, they will write... And I think the books are pointless, but the books don’t have a point in the sense that you describe in Blueprint for a Book. And so they will write book after book [00:22:00] after book, and they aren’t getting closer to publication.So it’s not just, like publishing is not a meritocracy, it just does not reward effort. You know, you have to be constantly improving. You have to be learning your craft. You have to keep an eye on the commercial side of it as well. Um, so I don’t like when people say you just need to persevere, you just need to keep going, because the vast majority of people who are trying to get published will not get published.And those that do get published, um, like I know a lot of people who have got published and cannot get back into traditional publishing, and it is eating them up, and it kills me to see it. AndJennie: Yeah, there’s a lot of- I just think we don’t hear about that ... I know aCaroline: lot of,Jennie: yeah, I know a lot of writers who after a first or a second or even third success, their whole motivation is, “I just wanna keep being picked.”Yes. “I just [00:23:00] wanna keep getting the next, you know, being able to do it again, getting the next deal.” They just wanna stay in it. And, um, uh, you know, it’s, the reason that your post and your message resonated so strongly with me is I have a very long history of, with this idea, and I had never articulated it quite as well as you had in that moment.But I, way back in the day when I was writing books and writing novels, I had a, a three-book deal from a publisher, which for many people, this was after they published one, one of my novels. They, it was a three-book offer for the next three. And for many people, that’s, that’s the dream. That’s- Yeah ... that’s the top of the mountain.But the amount of money that they had offered for each of those books, they wanted one a year for three years, and the amount of money was w- 100% not a sustainable [00:24:00] career. I would, I still needed a job, and then I would’ve needed to be writing these books at a fast clip, and I turned it down. And I, um, I sometimes, not sometimes, I often think about that, was that-Caroline: Mm-hmmJennie: you know, should I have just persevered? Should I have just stuck with it? And but there was this sense of it wasn’t going to give me, uh, it was just, it was too little to, to give me what I really wanted- Yeah ... what, which was- Yeah ... to be able to write the books I wanted to write and, and be- Mm-hmm ... the kind of writer I wanted to be.And that’s really what you’re talking about is the relationship- Yeah ... to the work. Um-Caroline: That’s it.Jennie: Yeah.Caroline: That’s it. That’s it. Exactly, Jennie, because I think that’s such a brave thing to do because you’re actually thinking beyond just- The ego and what will sound great and what will impress people and what you’re supposed to do.It always reminds me of, uh, [00:25:00] The Devil Wears Prada, and she keeps ... People keep saying, “Why are you sticking with this terrible job?” And people keep saying, “Thousands of girls would love to do your job.” And I th- always think that’s not the reason to do anything, just because a, a lot of people would take the thing in your place.Um, and something actually back when I was reading your book, I came across I think maybe an interview that you had done. And, uh, you were talking about your book coaching business. And I think you said something like, “I loved being a novelist. Uh, but also I equally, if not more, am suited to and love coaching, book coaching.”Right. Yeah. And that blew my mind, Jennie, because I thought, “No, that’s ... Nobody could prefer anything to writing a novel.” Because I think when you’re an aspiring novelist, ‘cause I say that to people who are trying to get published, and it ... I can see it’s really destabilizing because they’re kind of thinking, “Well, why am I putting all this effort?”No, no, no. It’s gonna make life perfect. And I remember when I read that, it blew my mind [00:26:00] ‘cause I’m thinking there’s something better than ... You’re, you’re thinking I’m suited to it and I enjoy it more. So- Yeah,Jennie: for me- ... how does that fit? ... the,Caroline: the work-Jennie: You know, it’s amazing ... yeah, the work of being a book coach used more of, of my whole self than- Mm-hmmthan writing alone did. And when I experienced that, I ... It, it was impossible to ignore. But the- Mm. I, I mean, it must be said that the real reason, again, your post resonated with me was I had these things in the back in my past, but I also have something in the extreme present, which is that I’m writing this book called Write Big.And Write Big, the concept is, is about what we’re talking about. It’s about writing for yourself, writing with your whole heart, um, not writing to please- Yeah ... especially for women. Uh, not writing to be picked. The Pick Me episode you heard come, came [00:27:00] out of this. And, and I had, um, been on this journey with this book, um- And, and not really following my own lesson.So in other words, I was saying, I was writing about not being picked. I was writing about tapping into what you wanna do and say and what the book wants to be, and yet I was wanting to be picked. And I, I self-published the Blueprint books, and they’ve done very, very well. Yeah. And with this book I had decided I wanted a traditional deal.And so I- Mm ... went out and got... I hadn’t worked with an agent in years. I’ve had several in my career. But I went out and I found an agent who knew my work, loved my work, was excited to represent my work. We worked on a book proposal, which is what I do. I help people write book proposals. Yes, you... Yeah, yeah.I... We, we wrote a fantastic book proposal. It was so good. [00:28:00] And, and we went out on submission and, and when... Just before I read your post, I learned that the 30th publisher we went out to had, had said no. Mm. So it... We came to the end of the line. We had decided we came to the end of the line on the submission of this proposal with this agent at this time.And I was feeling that, exactly what you’re saying, that toxic sense of... For me it was actually embarrassment and some shame. Mm-hmm. Like, “I’m supposed to be the person that knows how to do this. I’m supposed to be the person that teaches people how to do this. Am I just a fraud now?” And I had given so much to the external validation of the whole thing.Yeah. And I wanted... This is the real n- uh, nut of it. I wanted to be able to say the things that you’re saying- Mm ... from the place of having won. I’m using air [00:29:00] quotes, if you’re listening. Yes.Caroline: Right? Yes. It allows you to say these things- Yeah ... if you got what you wanted.Jennie: Yes. ICaroline: totally agree. Yeah.Jennie: Um- I wanted to be able to say, “Don’t have the pick me energy.Don’t put your trust in the external thing. Write the book you wanna write.” I wanted that from that place of, of-Caroline: Yes ... “Jennie: Oh, this was my pure sense of it,” but actually underneath I didn’t believe it. And so I was- Yes ... just wrestling with this in my own gut when I read your post, and I just sat back in my chair.Literally, I just sat back in my chair- Mm ... and I thought... I just sort of went, “Ah.” Like, “Yeah, I... That’s it. Just, it’s just needs to be a mindset shift.” And-Caroline: Yeah ...Jennie: but then the question... This is why I was so eager to speak to you. The question becomes, how do you know when- To keep hammering away at persistence.Like, “Oh, I’ll find [00:30:00] another agent,” or, “Oh, well, I’ll tweak the proposal and try again and try again and try it again.” Or say, “I love this material. I love this book. I’m going to bring this out my own self.” Yeah. And I felt, when I sat with it, a real devotion to what I have written. I really quite love it, and I- Mm-hmmbelieve in it, and it’s what I want to write. And it, I mean, ironically, the process of writing the right big book has forced me to grapple with these issues, uh, you know- Yeah ... in, in a really specific way of what do I really wanna say? And, and some of my, um, early beta readers have really pushed me, saying, “Well, you’re not doing what you say that we should do.Yes. Yeah. “We can feel you hedging your bets. We can feel you giving away your power. We can feel you tamping yourself down.” StillCaroline: [00:31:00] writing with an eye to the traditional- Yes ... yeah.Jennie: Well, first of all- Or writing with an eye to not upsetting people or to not being seen- Yes ... as this or that, and-Caroline: Palatable, yeahJennie: and so I’ve done- I wouldCaroline: say- Yeah ... a couple of things. First of all, I really feel your pain. Especially, and this is what I’m saying, if you’ve already had success, you’ve been traditionally published, to publicly then not be able to get the thing you want is even more difficult. It’s not as difficult when you’re unpublished, because it’s part of the thing.Um, but what I would say is it’s clearly difficult, but I think what you’re experiencing, and you are grappling with something very important, it’s the thing that’s driving us all and driving some of us mad, is this question of why are we doing this to ourselves? And it is the external validation. And I think when you figure this out, your writing will be so powerful because you will have figured it out.Yeah. Um, and I met a woman ... And I mean, I talk the big [00:32:00] talk, but will I talk that talk when, you know- Right ... when things don’t work out, you know? And, and that’s me. You can come back to me. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but I met a woman a couple of weeks ago, and it really blew my mind because she was really talking the talk.Um, I was at a book launch, and I met a writer who was about to fly over to London for, um, the finals of a big new writing competition. There were editors coming in. There were gonna be agents there. And if she won it, she was winning a publishing, traditional publishing deal, and she was self-published. And I said, “Oh my God, you’re gonna meet so many agents.Even if you don’t win, you’re gonna get snapped up and blah, blah, blah. Well, you might. It’s gonna be great.” She was so relaxed, and she said, “To be honest, I’ve self-published my novels, and I have figured out how to reach my readers and sell to them, so I’m not really that phased or bothered about agents.” Ah.“Wow, you’re the coolest person I’ve met.” And I thought, “Wow, she’s so powerful because they don’t hold any power over her.” They’re just some people who might be helpful or might not be helpful. [00:33:00] And then I thought the only thing that matters is reaching your readers. That’s right. Um, and so f- it’s so true.And when you, when I saw what you were saying about having a nonfiction book coming out, the first thing I thought, because I’ve been following quite a few people going through this on Substack, was, “Well, Jennie Nash doesn’t need traditional publishing ‘cause you’ve got huge platform and a lot of fans, and you could self-publish.”And I was reading about Emma Gannon, who- Mm ... sometimes goes trad publishing, sometimes she self-publishes, and one of her book, I think she said it’s her most successful yet, the one she has self-published. Uh, and then I came across another woman who is, I think she’s a big influencer. She has over 200,000 followers, and, uh, her name is Danielle Leslie.And just in the last week she has been, if you look her up on Instagram, she put up an amazing post. She said, “I’ve got this cracking idea for...” Or she used better language than that, “... for a nonfiction, uh, book. [00:34:00] I’m trying to decide whether to self-publish or...” And she’s actually talking about the exact things you were talking about.She’s very intelligent, and she writes very well, and she, she got so much attention from literary agents. She had at least nine or more meetings as a result of this Instagram post, and she talked to a lot of bestsellers, and she weighed up all the pros and cons of traditional versus self-publishing. And she was like, “Yeah,” I think she said, “part of it is the validation.”And she weighed up the financials and the pros and cons, and she’s decided to go with self-publishing, and she had to make that decision, too. Like, part of it is being picked Yeah, IJennie: think I read that post actually. It was quite long- Yeah ... and she had the details on the, the finances. Yeah. And yeah, it’s just such an interesting, um, place to, to be to confront your own, um-Caroline: YeahJennie: your own desire for validation. And, and that’s why what you’re saying when you realize that [00:35:00] it’s an insatiable hunger that will never beCaroline: filled. It will never be enough. ItJennie: willCaroline: never be enough. It will neverJennie: be enough. And-Caroline: Because let’s say you, you got a big huge advance for this from a traditional publisher, then you’re under huge pressure to earn out the advance or else you won’t get another.Jennie: That’s right.Caroline: You know? Or maybe you will or maybe you won’t.Jennie: That’sCaroline: right. And itJennie: all depends. And, and the, the... It can eat at you. I know, I, I know people who, um, you know, well, I, I don’t want to, I don’t want to give any- anybody’s inner life away. But I, I know wildly successful people who are bitterly dis- disappointed when they don’t- Yesmake a certain list because they- Yes ... made it before. Because they, you know, they’re, the bar just keeps getting higher and higher for what makes it okay for you. And so shedding that and tapping back into this deep [00:36:00] why, I mean, it sounds like it happened in a profound way for you. But then that’s why I was asking, does it keep happening?That you have to keep... Mindset doesn’t just, it’s like, “Oh, I changed my mind and now I’m fine.” Mindset is a practice. You have to keep- That’s right ... thinking about it. And so I’m curious, you said you were writ- writing, so, um, The Marriage Vendetta, again, came out last year, and it’s called The Village coming out in 2027.Caroline: Yes.Jennie: And you said that you started working on that book to sort of distract yourself from the launch of The Marriage Vendetta. Did you feel any of that- Well, this will get the bigger, big advance, or well, this will get the big movie deal. Like, did you feel that with the second book, or were you able to kind of hold it back?Caroline: I have learned to not let it sway me up and down. Yeah. Um, because I [00:37:00] thought to myself, it’s very difficult even to get one book published. One book will satisfy me, and to be honest, for all my big talk, it did satisfy. It calmed something in me. It calmed and permanently fixed something in me. Um, it did prove something to me, and that was permanently fixed by getting a traditional book deal.I will say that. Um- Oh,Jennie: I love that you’re saying this. I love that you’re saying this so much, that yeah, you knew you, you knew you needed that and wanted that, and you kept at it. Yeah. And I wonder if that’s part of the answer of what I was struggling for, is how does a writer... Like, I know So you knew that you had to change your material.That was a thing you did. When you got my book and the other books-Caroline: Yes ...Jennie: you knew you needed to, to learn something more about the work. I’m sitting in a place where I don’t think that’s what I need. I think-Caroline: Yeah ...Jennie: that I need to not persevere, in other words.Caroline: [00:38:00] Yeah. Yeah.Jennie: And so I w- And- I wonder how somebody who’s trying to decide which side of that equation they, they’re sitting on, how we could help them think through that decision.Caroline: Well, in a very practical way, I paid people to tell me. I decided, and I mean, you could do this too. Anyone could do this. I thought, “Enough of this torture. I am gonna pay a former agent from the Madeleine...” Madeleine Milburn was my number one agency that I wanted to get to, uh, represented by. So I paid a former Madeleine Milburn agent to tell me what she thought, and I also paid a former Harper Collins commissioning editor to tell me what she thought.And I think we need a lot of cheerleaders at certain points in our writing, but when the writing’s [00:39:00] done, we n- we need brutal honesty. We need someone to put us out of our misery. “Tell me honestly, am I barking up the wrong tree? Am I wasting my, like, years of my life on this? Someone please tell me, am I just, like, wasting my time?”So I paid those two women, “Tell me honestly.”Jennie: Do youCaroline: mind- Uh ...Jennie: do you mind my asking what you paid?Caroline: Um, I’ve gone back to them since a couple of times. They’re not... They’re based in, um, one woman is from England, one is Irish, and so their, their charges or their fees are less than the US-based. Um, but these were just for, like, a query package assessment.Jennie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.Caroline: And so- The former agent said, “This will get snapped up by agents. The Voice, it will get snapped up.” And I’d never heard anything [00:40:00] encouraging before, really. Uh, I’d just died on submission, and the former commissioning editor said, “You are not barking up the wrong tree with this, but start writing something else because it might not sell.”So I thought, “Okay, I’ll keep going.” And then, and then I didn’t get snapped up by agents, but she was in my head saying, “You will, The Voice.” Yeah. And I thought, “Well, she knows what she’s talking about.” So I think you need to stop going to Other writers. Not you, I mean writers as far as- Yes,Jennie: yes ... youCaroline: to... Yes.Yeah. At some point, stop going to beta readers, your writing critique group. You need to go to the people who make these decisions with the market knowledge, and just say, “Look, I can take it. I can take the truth.”Jennie: Yes.Caroline: Just hit me hard.Jennie: Yes. Well-Caroline: Tell me to kill the project ...Jennie: well, and this is the role- I’ll do itthat a lot of book coaches play for people, not that, that they’re in an acquisition role, but book coaches are trained to see and to help people decide when to go forward or not. And- [00:41:00] Yeah ... we can see so clearly that- Yes ... I mean, I have seen so many manuscripts over my career where- Mm ... people have come out of, this is one of the reasons I am not a fan of writing groups, is people will- Yeahcome out of writing groups and say, “I’ve been sharing this with my writing group for years, and everybody loves it, and, and we all think it’s ready to go,” and, you know- Yeah ... or my critique partner, or this or that. And then we look at it, and we think, “No, there’s, no.” No. It’s just there’s glaringly obvious things.Like, people think that there’s, there are, I’m gonna say this wrong, is it objective things that are wrong- Yes ... with, with manuscripts, not subjective, and they think, um, that when if somebody’s saying, “I’ll persist, I’ll persist, I’ll persist,” they’re thinking, “Oh, that’s just their subjective opinion.” But there are objective realities to good writing that are very easy to see if it’s not you.Caroline: Yes.Jennie: Right? [00:42:00] And so the, a book coach- I completelyCaroline: agree, Jennie. Yeah.Jennie: Yeah. A book coach can play that role for people at a, a much more affordable rate probably. Even just a very short, like you were saying, a query package, which is typically the query and maybe sample chapters or synopsis, and, and we can see.And so that’s a fantastic piece of actionable advice, that don’t go to the people who love you, who know you.Caroline: Yeah.Jennie: Go pay someone who knows, who is in a position of bringing work to the marketplace in some way. Yeah. So because, and say exactly what you said, “Am I barking up the wrong tree? Is this- Yes ... is this ready or not?”I, I just think that’s genius advice, and so many people don’t wanna take it. And, um, you know, you’re making me think of, of my own, um, of my own situation here.Caroline: It- Yeah.Jennie: But [00:43:00] Jennie, if I was- And, and I think that’s what I’m gonna do, actually. That’s exactly- Yeah ... what I’m gonna do. Yeah.Caroline: I- if I was in your position, I would do what, and this is a strategy I followed for both my books.I still got advice For my second book too because, you know, I’m not taking any chances. Yeah. I know how hard it is to stay in the game, so I got advice again. Brilliant and brutal advice. Yeah. And I took it. Um, and if I were you, I would pick your top pick of publisher, and then I would find someone on Reedsy or, or who used to work there as commissioning editor, and I would go and get a, like a, a quick, likeThey could probably tell from the, the pitch and the opening few pages, like why is this not being picked up? Yeah. And they will know instantly, you know? Um ...Jennie: Well, what’s interesting about my situation is, um, my, my agent did something unusual, I’ve never actually heard about it before, which is she had a spreadsheet and she shared the rejections with me as they came in.Mm. And the [00:44:00] rejections were I would say, um, wildly positive. So, so we got some extremely specific and encouraging rejections. Um, and I actually recorded a podcast about it that will be going out before this conversation goes out. Um, I was, I was absolutely thrilled with the first five rejections we got. I was so...I was giddy because- Mm ... everyone, they knew my work, which blew me away. Um, all these- Yeah, that’s amazing ... all these editors at all these publishing companies, big ones, knew my work, loved the proposal, understood what I was trying to do, saw the value in it. Many of them were saying, “Personally, I love this,” but the, the always the but for me was about being able to break it out in the way that they needed to break it out because I’m not an influencer.I’m, [00:45:00] don’t have... I have a very strong platform, but not the kind of- Oh ... platform that they need. So in some ways- Okay ... I have my answer. Like-Caroline: Oh, you have your answer, yeah. Yeah.Jennie: I have my answer, and I, and I, I got enough validation that was specific, and I’m not m- I’m not making that part up because it’s, it was right there and, and I discussed it with my agent even, like, “Am I seeing this correctly?”They, they loved it, right?Caroline: Yeah.Jennie: And you know- Yeah ... we, we were able to have that. So it, in some ways I, I already have that.Um-Caroline: You do have your answer, yeah, and it’s an unfortunate one because that is not your fault. That’s the market. But for me, I would be able to take that and say it, it’s nothing to do with my writing or me.Yeah. It’s the way the market is. Unfortunately, you have to be almost an influencer to, or, or a celebrity to get an- Yeah, yeah ... published in the US. Yeah. Well, and it’sJennie: different with nonfiction and fiction, right? So that- Yeah ... I think that must be said as well, that I’m talking about a [00:46:00] nonfiction book and a, a very addressable market that I can reach, and fiction would be a different situation.I think it is a- Yes ... slightly different reality. Yes. Um, but you can get information from the types of rejections you’re getting. You know, the, I call them the black hole rejections, where you’re sending out queries and just hearing nothing ever. That’s telling you something, you know? Yeah. Right there. Um...Caroline: Yes. Yeah. Um, there was just one other thing if we have time that I was going to say that really helped me, and maybe it might help you. Please,Jennie: yeah.Caroline: Um, which is before... Because I had seen so many writers not be fulfilled by getting their dream come true. Because I interviewed a, I set up a little blog, and I interviewed a lot of authors, and a lot of the people who subscribed, then, to my newsletter were not unpublished.They were published and struggling to get back in, and I was very aware that- this [00:47:00] whole thing of, uh, the moving goalposts would take away the joy of actually getting a book deal. And so before, when my book went out in submission, I asked myself, “Define success for this book. Define what will be enough.”Yes.Jennie: Yes.Caroline: Uh, specifically. So that, because what could happen if you don’t do that is that success that actually will make you happy could pass you by and you don’t recognize it. Yes. So I got very specific.Jennie: ThatCaroline: is- And I thought- ...Jennie: such good advice. YeahCaroline: I think so, because it saved my sanity, because otherwise you’re like, “Well, year time’s listing is all I want and nothing else,” and that won’t satisfy you either, ‘cause then you’re gonna try and do it again.So my definition of success for The Marriage Vendetta was one person, one reader feeling seen, like someone else in the world that experienced the exact emotions they had felt, that they were like, “That, that is [00:48:00] what it feels to be alive.” And I thought, “If one reader gets in touch with me and says that, I’ve done my job.”And I tried to persuade myself with that. I was like, “Well, we’ll see.”Jennie: AndCaroline: have they,Jennie: Caroline? We’ll see.Caroline: Well, one of the editors in the whole submission process, during the whole frenzied month we had, um, the best thing that happened was one editor texted my agent and said, “It’s like Caroline has read my mind.”And I said, “That’s it.” That’sJennie: it. That’s it.Caroline: I didn’t even have an offer on the book at the time. I wasn’t sure it was gonna get published, and I said, “That’s success. That’s it. I recognize it. That’s made it all worthwhile.” And it really did help, because otherwise it’s like... And the other thing that really helped me, Jennie, was that I knew what I’m working towards, the bigger goal, which is, like, trying to contribute in some way towards feminism.And there was another big book that was way bigger than mine. Took off in a huge way, and now the old me would have been eaten up by that. Like, “That should have been me. I’ve failed.”Jennie: Yep.Caroline: But that book had such a strong, [00:49:00] such a strong message. It was a beautiful book, and it got a whole conversation starting.And so instead I thought, her success is my success because the bigger goal is tr- is women’s rights, and she had done that.Jennie: Oh,Caroline: isn’t that- So there’s no reason for me to be jealous ...Jennie: beautiful. That’s beautiful, right? So for me, where I’m ... This has, this has all been about me. Yeah, but I love it. The whole reason I s- I love itI wanted to talk to you was about me. So for me- But I wonder forCaroline: you, Jennie, what it is. WhatJennie: does success lookCaroline: like?Jennie: Well, right? The ... I mean, I always am interested in impact. My whole business of training and certifying book coaches has been about impact. And, and then I’ve had to define what that means and what that looks like.And I ... You know, it sounds very grandiose, but I think we teach writing wrong. And, and by we, I mean our culture all the way into the school systems, [00:50:00] how we talk about writing, how we teach people to write, how we value creativity. I think there’s a lot that’s really wrong with it, and that’s what has driven me, is that there’s, there’s a better way to help writers- write their best books.And you’ve tapped into it. You found a way, your own self, to tap into it. And what I’m trying to do is teach book coaches to help writers tap into it. That’s my whole thing, is really changing the way writing is taught and the way writers value themselves. That- Yeah ... that’s my motivation in everything that I’ve done.I- I’ve been running this business now for, this is our 14th year, and there’s ups, there’s downs. And to your point, it’s not about the money. It’s not about the validation. It’s not about, “Oh, look at me. I sit as a leader of this business,” or, “I have this reputation.” I know from my own experience that [00:51:00] that’s, th- there, it’s never enough.I could never get enough validation. I could never get, um, enough praise or PR- Mm ... or, you know, anything to m- Yeah ... to fill that hole up. But when I tap into ... When I say kind of grandiose, I mean, it’s a little embarrassing to say it to you and knowing that I’m saying it to a whole lot of other people who will listen later, but that I, I think, I think I have a better way.And, and that the talking about these things as we are matters. And so for this new book, that’s all I have to do ‘cause that’s what it’s all about. It’s, it’s taking that idea to the next, a deeper level than the blueprint did, a, a more universal level- Mm ... in some ways- Mm-hmm ... than the blueprint did. So I, you know, that feels, even when I say it now, it feels, I can feel the relief in my body.You know? Like, that’s ... It’s, it’s quite [00:52:00] easy in some ways to just do that- Yeah ... little shift. But, um, you know, easy to s- And- ... to say, not easy to, to do.Caroline: To really feel it. Yeah.Jennie: Yeah.Caroline: But I think the difference between the two approaches is Our sort of need to be picked by the traditional publishing is kind of, it’s about our- ourselves and our ego, whereas what you’re talking about, helping writers, and your book has been transformational for me.You’re talking about other people. You know, you’re, you’re helping other people. Whereas the traditional route is it’s very much like on the author, my book- Yeah ... my book has to do well, my reputation. Whereas what, what you’ve done is you’re helping other people, which is so much, this is so healthy, and mentally healthy, and, and so wonderful.It has this lovely ripple effect out, um-Jennie: Well, and I ... You’re giving me something I think I need to work on, ‘cause I’m hearing you today [00:53:00] literally say my book changed your writing career and your life. And, and I didn’t know that when we connected on- Mm-hmm.Caroline: Yeah. It’sJennie: funny going-Caroline: On, onJennie: Substack. Yeah. Like aCaroline: full circle thingJennie: But, but part of me doesn’t actually believe it.So, like, or won’t take it in. Yeah. I’m not sitting here thinking, “Wow, this is the biggest win for me,” or, “This is- Yeah ... this is what I live for.” I’m not feeling that. I’m, I’m sort of feeling like- Yeah ... okay, like I don’t quite believe it. And so that’s something I’m gonna think about. Because here- Yeah ... here you are saying that to my face and- Yeahyou know, you have no reason to be making that up. And, and it sort of happened serendipitously, and yet I don’t, uh ... You know? So I, that’s interesting to me to recognize, ‘cause you recognized when your reader told you the thing you wanted. You said, “That’s it?” Yeah. “That’s it.” And, and I am not doing that. [00:54:00] So that’s curious to me as well.Mm-hmm. But, um, I could, I could actually talk to you every day about this. It would be- It would be enormously, um, valuable and helpful to me. But I, I, I think this is one of the most important conversations I’ve shared on this podcast. And I, I think the work that you’re doing both in, in your writing but in your sharing of your writing and what you’re, what you’re allowing people to see in yourself is, is just profoundly important.And-Caroline: Well, thank you,Jennie: Jennie ... um, thank you for saying what you’re saying out there, for saying what you’ve said here today, for, for all of it. Um, so for anybody listening, you can hear- The, the depth of Caroline’s thought, and wisdom, and heart, this all comes out in her novels as well. So [00:55:00] you can read The Marriage Vendetta now, and in 2027 we’ll be looking for The Village.And where can people find you on Substack and Instagram?Caroline: Oh, yes, so it’s Caroline Madden on Substack. The name of my newsletter is Rising Tides Writers, I think. Uh, and on Instagram, I am Caroline Madden Writer. Uh, but I’m, I’ve had to quit Instagram ‘cause it’s too, uh... It wrecks my concentration. I can’t write when I’m on it.But I love Substack, so you can find me there. Amazing.Jennie: That’s amazing, and I will be there as a fan and a follower, and I just appreciate you so much.Caroline: Oh, same to you, Jennie. You have changed the course of my writing life, whether you believe it or not. I will keep telling people and recommending your book.Um, and thank you so much for having me on.Jennie: Thank you.The hashtag [00:56:00] amwriting podcast is produced by Andrew Parrella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output because everyone deserves to be paid for their work This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe