#AmWriting

In this episode, Jennie digs into the sneaky ways writers “play small”—circling endlessly around an idea, polishing the same chapters, getting lost in research, or waiting for perfect timing instead of taking real action. With stories from her years as a book coach, including one writer who finally broke free from years of fear and went on to become a full-time author, Jennie shows how smallness hides behind busyness and perfectionism. She challenges you to spot where you’re holding back and take the courageous step toward playing big.Transcript Below!#AmWriting: A Groupstack is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.SPONSORSHIP MESSAGEHey, this is Jennie Nash, and I wanted to invite you to check out my Substack newsletter, The Art & Business of Book Coaching. It’s totally free unless you choose to support me, and it’s secretly really great for writers. The reason is that book coaches are in the business of helping writers do their best work. So I’m always talking about writer mindset and things like helping a writer find their structure or find an agent or find their position in the marketplace. If you’re considering investing in having somebody help you, it’s a great way to get prepared to know who you might want to pick and what you might want to ask of them. You’ll get an inside peek at the way that the people who are in the business of helping writers think about writers, and so in that way, it can help you become a better writer just by tuning in. I have a lot of writers following me over there, so if you’re interested, come check it out you can find it at substack.com/@JennieNash. That’s substack.com/@JennieNash, and it’s J-E-N-N-I-E.EPISODE TRANSCRIPTHi, I’m Jennie Nash, and you’re listening to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast. This is a Write Big Session, where I’m bringing you short episodes about the mindset shifts that help you stop playing small and write like it matters.Today, we’re talking about playing small—and what exactly it is—because playing small is sneaky. Writers are not going around saying, “I want to hold myself back,” or, “I’m giving in to my fear,” or, “I’m making decisions to protect myself.” Instead, they tell themselves that they’re being realistic.Maybe they think that they need more training, or they need to take more courses, or they need to take more time. But as a book coach, I see the same patterns over and over again in writers playing small — and this is what it looks like.It’s this person, who I don’t see very often, but whenever I do see them—maybe once or twice a year—they always tell me that they’re circling around the idea of writing a book. It’s the same book that they’ve been circling around all these years, and they feel compelled to tell me that they’re still thinking about it—they’re still just about to do that someday, when they have time.The smallness comes in never even starting.I also think of the writer who polishes the same three chapters over and over again until they just shine brightly and there’s not one single, solitary thing wrong with them. But that writer never moves forward with their draft. They never actually get to the point where they’re going to finish, and then have to decide how to revise that book, or whether to take it out into the world, or even show it to anyone. They just noodle around with those same chapters in this endless loop of procrastination.So again, it’s not taking action.You also see this with nonfiction writers, or memoir writers, or sci-fi writers—where they focus incredibly deeply on their world-building or their research, and they have copious notes and spreadsheets and all kinds of information that they’re gathering so that, when they’re ready to write, they’ll have all this info—but they never actually get ready to write. They just stay stuck in the loop of research.Perhaps the most poignant story I have of a writer playing small comes from a conference that I went to many years ago. I met this writer who had been going to the same conference for about five years, and she was getting ready to pitch. She actually had come to me in a kind of speed-dating situation, where you worked with an expert to get your pitch ready before you went in to the agents to pitch, and I thought her pitch was really good. I thought her material was really good, and we worked on tweaking it a little bit.And then I said, you know, had she ever pitched before? Was this her first time? And she said, “No, I’ve been coming to this conference all these years, and I’ve been pitching every year.”And I said, “Well, what happened all those years?” And she said that each one of those years, she had agents request to send in her manuscript. She had this collection of agents who were waiting for her manuscript, and she had never sent it to them because she didn’t think that it was ready.She kept coming to the conference, kept going to these pitches, kept getting requests, and never sending the manuscript in. She thought that she would continue to work on it—to make it as good as it could be—before she took that leap and sent those pitches in.And surely my mouth hung open in shock, because this just seemed so sad to me—and a perfect example of playing small. And so, instead of working on her pitch, I used my time with her to work on her mindset and to help her try to find and tap into that bravery to, this year, actually do it—to actually send the work in. And maybe go back to those agents from years past and send it to them as well. Sometimes there’s a period of time when the agents will still welcome those pitches—or not.But the point was, it was time for her to get out there and pitch, without a doubt. And after that conference, she did, in fact, get more requests to submit—and she did submit—and now, all these years later, she’s a very successful writer. She’s actually working on her third series. She is a full-time writer. She’s made the leap to be that, which is a thing so many people want to be.It was just one moment of fear that she had to get over. And I said in the last episode that playing big rarely happens in one moment — but sometimes it does. Sometimes it’s literally just hitting the send key and saying, “Okay, I’m doing this. I’m putting it out there.” And that’s what this writer needed to do to make that shift from playing small to playing big.It’s very easy to just stay busy with our writing—to stay productive—and to never do the work that’s actually going to get us the thing we want. Playing small often looks like busyness or it looks like waiting for permission—waiting for more time, for perfect pages, for someone else to open the door and welcome us in.But this is just another form of hiding. Playing small means not stepping forward. It means not sending that pitch, not finishing the draft, not carving out the time to do the work, and constantly coming up with reasons why it’s not happening.So the reflection I want to leave you with today is to think about where you know you’re playing small—and where you know you need to shine the light of courage and bravery in order to make that shift and play big.The place where you’re playing small is probably glaringly obvious to you, so you probably know. And I would encourage you to write it down so you can look at it—maybe share it. Everything is better when it’s shared and brought into the light.And once you do that, you can take action toward making the shift and playing big. Until next time, stop playing small and write like it matters.NarratorThe Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode of the Write Big series, Jennie unpacks what it really means to “write big”—not chasing bestseller lists or movie deals, but making the bold internal shifts that bring your truest work to the page. Through stories of writers daring to name their ambition, rebuild drafts, honor personal truths, and even reimagine entire projects, Jennie shows how writing big looks different for everyone but always comes down to honesty, courage, and clarity.Transcript Below!#AmWriting: A Groupstack is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.SPONSORSHIP MESSAGEHey, this is Jennie Nash, and I wanted to invite you to check out my Substack newsletter, The Art & Business of Book Coaching. It’s totally free unless you choose to support me, and it’s secretly really great for writers. The reason is that book coaches are in the business of helping writers do their best work. So I’m always talking about writer mindset and things like helping a writer find their structure or find an agent or find their position in the marketplace. If you’re considering investing in having somebody help you, it’s a great way to get prepared to know who you might want to pick and what you might want to ask of them. You’ll get an inside peek at the way that the people who are in the business of helping writers think about writers, and so in that way, it can help you become a better writer just by tuning in. I have a lot of writers following me over there, so if you’re interested, come check it out you can find it at substack.com/@JennieNash. That’s substack.com/@JennieNash, and it’s J-E-N-N-I-E.EPISODE TRANSCRIPTHi, I’m Jennie Nash, and you’re listening to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast. This is a Write Big Session—a short episode about the mindset shifts that help you stop playing small and write like it matters. Today we’re talking about what Write Big really means. A lot of writers think that writing big means chasing splashy goals like bestseller lists or big advances or movie deals, and sometimes it looks like that, but more often writing big is a subtle internal shift. It’s daring to face what isn’t working, listening to hard feedback, writing the thing you really want to write, and letting yourself own what you’re dreaming about.I think the best way to explain it is to tell a few stories.So in the last episode, I mentioned my client, Dr. Diana Hill. When I met Diana, she had a full draft of the book that she was writing, and it was her third book. She was about two months away from turning it in to her publisher. She asked if I would take a look at the manuscript to see if there was anything that I might be able to suggest to make the book better.We were new friends, and I thought it would be a kind thing to do, and so I said yes, but as soon as I started reading the manuscript, I thought, uh oh. It was good—it was fine—but there was nothing special about the pages. Diana had done the thing that a lot of academics do, which is point to all the other thinkers who had gone before them and written things or studied things. It was all just a little flat, but I could tell that the ideas in it were really big. And so I went back to Diana, and I said, “What’s your goal for this book? Where do you want it to sit on the shelf?” And what I mean by that question is: what other books are near it, what other books are like it, what other books are your ideal reader reading?And usually, when I ask people this, they talk about actual shelves in the bookstore and books that are on those shelves. But what Diana said was something I’d never heard anybody say before. She said, “I don’t want my book to be on the shelf. I want it to be on the front table.” That was her version of playing big—naming her ambition out loud and allowing it to shape her choices. Because when she told me that, I was then able to say, “I don’t think what you’ve written is going to be that book.” And then I said, “How much are you willing to risk to make it so?”She looked at me sort of horrified, because she was really close to actually being done with this book, and she said, “I’ll do anything that it takes.” And so we set about working together over those two months to basically rip the entire thing down to the studs—if we’re talking about house-building imagery. I have rarely seen somebody work as hard over such a long sustained period of time as Diana did to rebuild that book. She did anything that I suggested if she thought it was right, and she worked night and day to build it back up. I’m recording this the week before her book comes out, and so we have no idea how the book is going to be received in the marketplace. But what we do know is this: she played big. She gave that book everything that she had. She was willing to ask for help. She was willing to sacrifice time with her family and even time at her job. She’s a therapist, and she took a week off from seeing clients in order to go on a retreat and get this writing done. She also risked her ego, because she really put out there what she wanted. She wanted this book to be a big deal, and all of that is playing big.But playing big does not have to be tied to ambition.I once worked with an ad executive who came into a course that I was teaching at UCLA, and he wanted to write a memoir. He’d spent his whole career writing ad copy—short, little, catchy lines—and he was a really good wordsmith, but he was terrified of writing anything longer than about a paragraph.But he had this story that he was burning to tell, and the story had to do with a road trip that he took when he was 16 years old. At the time that he came into my class, he was retired and had gray hair, and he was thinking about this trip that had taken place way back in the day when America was really a different kind of country, and cars were new, and the roads that opened the country were new, and this idea that you could hit the road and go anywhere you wanted was new.And so he had this romantic image of what that trip was. But the trip had also haunted him for 50 years, because he took it with his buddy, another friend from Ohio, who he was going to school with. After that trip was over and they returned back home from California, that friend took his own life, and this ad executive had never stopped thinking about it, and never stopped thinking about his friend, and this vibrant time they had, and this aliveness that they felt, and this freedom that they enjoyed, and he wanted to capture that story for his 50th high school reunion.He didn’t have any intention of publishing it wider than that. He was going to print maybe 100 copies and take them to the reunion and hand them out to people, because the people in that room at that reunion were the only people who would have cared as much as he did about that friend and about that time. This was the audience that he wanted to please, but he really wanted to do this idea justice. He did not want to just write something down or write something that didn’t have depth, or, you know, have a sort of travel log of the places they went and the adventures that they had. He wanted to write something that was deeply meaningful to him and to that friend’s memory and to that audience.And working with him, I was struck that this was playing big too—just knowing what he wanted and being willing to do whatever it took to get it right. It was very hard for him to write that book, because, like I said, he was really good at writing little bits of words but not so good at writing whole scenes and chapters. He really had to teach himself how to do that and teach himself about narrative design and holding tension, and, as with any memoir, centering the reader and not just himself.Plus, he was digging up memories and wanting to get things right and wanting to get the spirit of the thing right. He worked so hard, and publishing that book and taking it to that reunion was a triumph for him. It was absolutely playing big.And then just a few weeks ago, I had an experience of a writer playing big. This is a friend of mine, Lisa B., and she had spent about three years noodling around with a nonfiction book, a biography that just wasn’t working. She is a journalist, and she adheres very closely to the truth—that matters a lot to her—and she was intrigued by this story, but she couldn’t get it to work, and it was really starting to grind at her. So she sat down with a brain trust of people, and I was part of that brain trust, and she asked us for some real feedback.It wasn’t about the pages. We actually didn’t read any pages or notes or anything that she had written. It was about her story and what it was going to be, and if maybe it was time to let it go. So she was arguing for what she loved about the story and explaining about what wasn’t working, and she was listening to our critiques and our curiosity and our prodding and really trying to understand what to do with this story that wasn’t working. Should she try to somehow make it work? Was there another wrinkle that she hadn’t seen to bring this whole thing to life? Or should she let it go?And we had this very rich and deep conversation, and then that night she had a sudden realization. She said it was kind of like a lightning-bolt strike, and she realized that the story was actually not about the person she thought it was about. It was about a minor character. And if she shifted the spotlight onto this other character, the whole book would work in the way that she envisioned it working, and it would mean writing it as a novel, which, for her, was something she had really fought against doing. It went against her adherence to the truth, and so she had to embrace this really big, scary thing in order to do this story justice.But what was so cool in listening to her talk about this revelation was that she was practically vibrating with excitement as she described what this book was going to be. She knew she had it. She was just owning it. And that’s what playing big feels like. It’s this act of courage and clarity and passion and possibility, and you could just feel it in her. Playing big here has nothing to do with what happens to that book in the world. She’s just at the beginning. We don’t know what’s going to happen to that book in the world, but we know that she is writing big.So writing big is about honesty with your own self. It’s choosing to tell the truth about your ambition and your story and your vision. And sometimes that looks like wanting your book to be on the front table of the bookstore. Other times it looks like wanting to write for 100 people and really get that story right. And sometimes it looks like tearing apart a draft and reimagining the whole thing.There’s just a thousand different ways that it looks like to write big, and you have to find it for your own self.What matters is that you’re willing to stop hiding and let the work be as powerful as it can be.So I would ask you to think about your own current project, and if there’s anything about it that you’re tamping down—your ambition or your vision for it or what you want it to be, maybe how much you want this work to work, or maybe about what you’re avoiding.And if there’s something that you find that you need to change, write a bold statement about what that change needs to be and put it up where you can see it every day or share it with someone you trust.Writing big doesn’t happen all at one time. It’s often a subtle shift that unfolds over time. So having either a reminder of what that shift is or an accountability partner to help you remember is a really great way of making sure that you write big.Until next time, stop playing small and write like it matters.NarratorThe Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled, Unemployed Monday was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Jennie kicks off the new Write Big series with a conversation about what it really means to stop playing small in your writing life. If you’ve ever felt the tug to bring more of yourself to the page—or wondered why your words aren’t landing the way you want—this episode will spark reflection and give you permission to choose courage, clarity, and creativity in your work.Transcript Below!#AmWriting: A Groupstack is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support our work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.SPONSORSHIP MESSAGEHey, this is Jennie Nash, and I wanted to invite you to check out my Substack newsletter, The Art & Business of Book Coaching. It’s totally free unless you choose to support me, and it’s secretly really great for writers. The reason is that book coaches are in the business of helping writers do their best work. So I’m always talking about writer mindset and things like helping a writer find their structure or find an agent or find their position in the marketplace. If you’re considering investing in having somebody help you, it’s a great way to get prepared to know who you might want to pick and what you might want to ask of them. You’ll get an inside peek at the way that the people who are in the business of helping writers think about writers, and so in that way, it can help you become a better writer just by tuning in. I have a lot of writers following me over there, so if you’re interested, come check it out you can find it at substack.com/@JennieNash. That’s substack.com/@JennieNash, and it’s J-E-N-N-I-E.EPISODE TRANSCRIPTHi, I’m Jennie Nash, and you’re listening to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast, and today, we’re starting something new. It’s a special series here on Hashtag AmWriting where we explore what happens when writers hold back, play it safe, or hide in the shadows—and what changes when they step into their full creative power. I’m calling these the Write Big Sessions.I’ll be sharing solo reflections, interviewing different writers and industry professionals about the ways they play big, talking with KJ about these ideas, and offering the chance for you to reflect at key times of the year, all circling around one big question: How are you playing small in your writing life? And here’s the good news: you don’t have to keep doing that. You can choose to Write Big, with courage, clarity, and the power to bring your whole self to the page.Today I’m talking about why I’m obsessed with the whole concept of writing big, and why I’ve committed my whole career to helping writers do it.In April, I went on a wellness retreat in Costa Rica, which was being run by Dr. Diana Hill, one of my book coaching clients, and the author of the book Wise Effort. When we arrived, there were the usual introductions—where are you from? What do you do? What brought you here? One woman heard about my work with Diana and said, “Oh, that’s so crazy. I’m dying to write a book. I’d love to talk to you.”I smiled and said something polite, because this is something I hear all the time. I’m a book coach, and whenever anybody hears about what I do, they always say that either they or their sister or cousin or brother or neighbor or somebody is dying to write a book. They say that 82% of American adults want to write a book. And from my experience out in the world, I don’t doubt it.In the middle of the week, Diana guided us through a visualization exercise designed to help us reconnect with our values and desires, and it was intense. We had to write for 15 minutes about what we would do if we only had a year left to live. We then had to write about what we would do if we only had a month left to live, and then a week, and then a minute.After we did the writing exercises, we partnered up with whoever was sitting next to us to share what we had discovered, and my partner happened to be the woman who wanted to write the book. I shared with her that if I had a year left to live, I would absolutely be writing a book to try to capture everything that I’ve learned throughout my career. I’m just wired to teach and to inspire others, and it’s what I would do.If I only had a month left to live, I’d still have that on my list. I imagined a burst of creative energy at the end of my life to propel me through this creativity, and of course leave me time to be with my husband and my two kids. We would probably watch silly movies and play games and fight about it, and we would probably take walks, and I would tell them how much I’ve loved loving them.When I got down to one week left to live, and then one minute, writing reluctantly dropped off my list because I had to face the limits of time and my priorities of being with my family. But what was interesting is that the woman who literally told me she was dying to write a book did not include writing on any of her lists.And to be honest, this didn’t surprise me. So many people say they want to write a book, but they don’t want it to cost them anything. They don’t want to give up anything in order to do it. They’re not ready to Write Big.But I find that the writers who are ready to Write Big—the ones who are yearning to connect with their deepest creative desires and write something they love that their readers might love—those people are motivated to do whatever it takes, if only they knew what those things were.These writers are already probably spending time, effort, energy, and money writing their morning pages, clocking 1000 words a day, maybe turning out shitty first drafts and maybe even publishing. They’re doing work, but the books they’re writing are falling flat, failing to make an impact, and leaving them frustrated and desperate to figure out what’s missing in their creative life. They can’t quite figure out why they’re not writing something that feels as amazing to them as the writing that they love feels when they read it.Compounding this frustration is the glut of craft resources, productivity tips, and marketing strategies coming at us every day. It’s easy to get lulled into the belief that knowing how to write and publish is all it takes to fulfill your creative dreams. But I know better.In my work at Author Accelerator, where I train and certify people to be book coaches, mostly what we’re doing is helping people figure out how to help writers to Write Big. At the end of the day, what an excellent book coach does is help a writer step into their full creative power.And I want to be clear about what I mean by writing big. It’s not about hitting bestseller lists or being loud on the internet. It’s bringing your whole self to the page, choosing courage over comfort, and daring to be seen. It’s the difference between spending time on your writing—and committing your whole self to it.The ironic thing is that when writers decide to play big, the rewards of the marketplace often follow, because readers can tell when you’re playing small, holding back, dialing it in, or not really connecting with yourself or them.I sometimes think there are bigger problems in the world than helping writers make a shift in their relationship to their work. But then I’m reminded of what happens when writers bring their whole selves to the page. Hearts and minds get changed, people feel less alone, the world becomes more connected.So what I’ll be talking about in these Write Big Sessions is BIG! I’ll be keeping the episodes short on purpose, and I’ll usually end with a reflection or action step. I’m a book coach, after all—it’s what I do.For today, I would just ask you to think about what the concept of writing big has brought up for you, just hearing about it. What feelings or thoughts arise?Until next time, stop playing small, and write like it matters.NarratorThe Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled, Unemployed Monday was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Kate Rope’s new book, Strong as a Girl is not only well-written and thoroughly researched, it includes the voices of so many girls and young women. In this week’s episode, Jess talks with Kate about how she managed to secure interviews with these girls, get permission to use their voices, and manage the paperwork around all those releases. Find Kate via her website: Kate Rope, @kateropewriter on Instagram, and her Substack Strong as a HumanTranscript Below!Jess LaheyHey, it’s Jess Lahey. If you’ve been listening to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast for any length of time, you know that, yes, I am a writer, but my true love—my deepest love—is combining writing with speaking. I get to go into schools, into community organizations, into nonprofits, into businesses, and do everything from lunch and learns to community reads to just teaching about the topics that I’m an expert in, from the topics in The Gift of Failure, engagement, learning, learning in the brain, cognitive development, getting kids motivated, and yes, the topic of over-parenting and what that does to kids’ learning—two topics around The Addiction Inoculation, substance use prevention in kids, and what I’ve been doing lately that’s the most fun for me, frankly, is combining the two topics. It makes the topic of substance use prevention more approachable, less scary when we’re talking about it in the context of learning and motivation and self-efficacy and competence and, yes, cognitive development.So if you have any interest in bringing me into your school, to your nonprofit, to your business, I would love to come—you can go to jessicalahey.com, look under the menu option “Speaking,” and go down to “Speaking Inquiry.” There’s also a lot of information on my website about what I do. There are videos there about how I do it. Please feel free to get in touch, and I hope I get to come to your community. If you put in the speaking inquiry that you are a Hashtag AmWriting listener, we can talk about a discount, so that can be one of the bonuses for being a loyal and long-term listener to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast. Hope to hear from you.Multiple SpeakersIs it recording? Now it’s recording. Yay! Go ahead. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone. Try to remember what I’m supposed to be doing. All right, let’s start over. Awkward pause. I’m going to rustle some papers. Okay. Now, one, two, three.Jess LaheyHey, welcome to Hashtag AmWriting. This is the podcast about reading all the things—short things, long things, poetry, nonfiction, fiction, articles, queries, book proposals. This is the podcast about writing all the things, but more than anything else, this is the podcast about getting the writing done, getting the work of being a writer done. I’m Jess Lahey. I’m the author of The Gift of Failure and The Addiction Inoculation, and you can find my work at The Washington Post and The New York Times and The Atlantic and lots of other places.And today I have a guest—a guest I’m very, very excited about. So today I’m going to be talking with Kate Rope about a topic that I have wanted to cover for a while and have not had exactly the right person to cover the topic with. Kate Rope is a writer. She is a journalist, and she’s had articles at a lot of the same places that I have, actually—like The New York Times, The Washington Post, and things like that. She wrote a wonderful book called Strong like a Mother [Strong as a Mother], and her new book, Strong like a Girl [Strong as a Girl], is coming out in October—October 14, to be precise. And thank you so much, Kate, for coming on the podcast.Kate RopeOh, I’m so excited. It’s a dream come true. It’s—it’s literally like leveling up in my world.Jess LaheyOkay, so help me remember where we actually first met? It could have been through Jess Foundation people, because those people in common.Kate RopeNo, no, it was before then. I think I just sought you out for—for being a source for a couple of articles.Jess LaheyOh, okay.Kate RopeJust because of having read your The Gift of Failure.Jess LaheyNormally what I do—what I need, what our computers need now—is a function called “How do I know blah, blah, blah?” Because there are all these people that, like, we know them from online, or I know them because I’ve used them as a source somewhere for some article. So I got on my computer, and I looked in my little, you know, search terms, and I put your name in, and I was looking for, like, our earliest contact, and I couldn’t find it. But I think our computers need, like...Kate RopeI think it was a phone call.Jess LaheyHow—oh, okay, well, there you go.Kate RopeI think that’s why there’s no record of it.Jess LaheyWell, either way, I’m so glad we’re talking now. I love, love, love your new book. I’ve been fortunate enough to read an early version of it. It’s really lovely. You ended up with a beautiful cover—I can’t wait for everybody to see it. I will be posting a picture of it in the show notes. But I wanted to talk to you—and you actually came up with this independently—but this is this topic I’ve wanted to talk about for a long time: about interviewing kids specifically. Like, logistically, there are a lot of hurdles to get through when you interview kids There can be, I know, depending on, like, the when, the where, the why, and the how. But I wanted to talk a little bit about interviewing—how we interview kids, how we interview people in general, how we get permission, how we approach people. So since you had sort of this idea to begin with, I would love for you to start and talk a little bit about your book—how on earth you got access to the people you talked to in your book, and how that process went for you.Kate RopeSure. So it goes back to my first book. I will admit to having a bias—I do not like books that have case studies that open chapters, and so it’s like, “Sarah and her family could never get homework done,” and so it, you know, went for, you know, this is what they went through. And if you don’t relate to that particular story, you check out. So for my last—my last book, Strong as a Mother—I wanted to have the voices of all different kinds of moms and pregnant people, you know, sharing what their experience was, so that a reader could find some other person that had gone through what they had gone through. And so for that...Jess LaheyCan I hit pause? Can I hit pause for just one second? So my—and this is, I’m going to be talking to my Authority to Author person that I’ve been interviewing for a series that I’m doing on going from being an authority to being an author—and we talk a lot about this: like, what’s your framing narrative for the chapter? How do you create narrative? So I want to make sure at some point we talk about—so if you’re not a fan of sort of the case study approach, how do you go about thinking about creating a narrative to use to couch your data, so that it’s not just about data?Kate RopeYeah, I do have stories in there. So I might have, you know, a couple of paragraphs with a particular story that illustrates, you know, whatever we’re talking about in the chapter, but it doesn’t ground the whole chapter in one experience. So…Jess LaheyI like that.Kate RopeYeah, it’s trying to bring in different, different viewpoints. I tend to write very much, like, voice-forward. So I bring people in, and I talk about, you know, the research, but I don’t tend to be really clinical or academic. So I tend to kind of create the narrative. I bring the people’s stories in within the body of the text. But then what I did in Strong as a Mother was, at the end of each chapter, I had quotes from pregnant people and moms about whatever the topic was. So, let’s say it was a chapter on breastfeeding, or choosing how you’re going to feed your kid. I wanted the mom who said, “I never wanted to breastfeed. I went to the hospital; I put a sign on my door that said, ‘Do not bring a lactation consultant in here. I know what I’m doing. I’m doing formula.’”I wanted the woman who was like, “Breastfeeding is all I ever wanted to do in my whole life, and it just didn’t work, and I had to stop. And it was heartbreaking, but I got through it.” I wanted the woman who was like, “This was the one thing that worked out for me, and I loved it, and I did it till my child was four.” Because then, at the end of the chapter, you’ve read this whole chapter on making choices about feeding your child that feel good to you and that work for you—and adjusting if life makes it not possible to live out that particular choice. And then I wanted them to see people who had done it, and who’d gotten through it. So that’s the way I did Strong as a Mother. And it was funny—I had so many in the end, and the only ding I got in Publishers Weekly was that they wanted more. But we had to cut so many, because otherwise the book would have been, like 600 pages long.Jess LaheyWhich is interesting, because then I have to—I, you know, if I’m going to go with, as I did both in The Gift of Failure and The Addiction Inoculation, I chose one framing narrative. So I have to be really careful about, how can I make this framing narrative as general, as appealing to as many people as possible? Because it is going to be a very thin slice, no matter what you do. But how you generalize that for people who may be experiencing something different is—it’s a hard thing to do. So that’s a really interesting choice to have to make—to say, okay, I’m not going to focus it on this one story versus, I’m going to give lots of different ways to people. I like thinking about that.Kate RopeIt’s sort of like if…Jess LaheyBecause I get stuck in…Kate RopeYou went to a moms’ group…Jess LaheyThe way I do things…Kate RopeYeah, it’s—you had went to—then why do you go to a moms’ group early on when you have your baby? So that you don’t feel like a weirdo and somebody else is going through the same thing. So I kind of wanted this to be, like, three pages of a moms’ group for, you know, perinatal depression and anxiety, breastfeeding, sex, co-parenting—whatever the topics were. I wanted them to feel like they had entered a room with peers who were open to all the different experiences, you know, one can have when going through, you know, trying to make or bring a child into your home. You know?Jess LaheyI like that. Thank you for opening my eyes to a different way. It’s just what you’re used to, I suppose, and how you want to go about entering into your storytelling.Kate RopeYeah, and so for Strong as a Girl, that didn’t feel quite the right way to go. So what I wanted to do was—and I’m a journalist, so I don’t even have, like you have—you’re a teacher, you’re trained. I am trained as a journalist. So all of the, you know, there’s some stories and advice that come from me living out my experience—me mostly doing things that I’ve learned from experts—but most of the actual advice and tips and everything is coming from experts. So I know I’m going to interview experts—experts for the book—and then I wanted to interview girls themselves, because I wanted to hear from them. What do they want? You know, basically, you know—this book is written for caregivers and parents of kids who identify as girls, elementary-age kids who identify as girls, so big, five to twelve. And you know, you can talk with ten and up, I would say. But, you know, five, six, seven, eight was not necessarily where I was going to get my, you know, sort of most self-reflective comments on what helps them and what doesn’t.Jess LaheyAlthough you do get great—you do get great quotes from kids those age.Kate RopeAgreed, agreed, agreed. So I went with, you know, kind of, you know, middle, upper elementary, middle school, all the way up through college. And I gathered focus groups together—and we can talk about why I did focus groups—but the whole point, the whole—what I wanted in the book was girls and young women reflecting on their childhoods: what helps them, what were the things that people in their lives did that were really helpful to them, and what were the things that they wish they had done differently or didn’t have access to? So that it was literally like—the way I would start off the focus groups is, I’d be like, “Pretend you’re talking to an auditorium of caregivers, and you get to tell them exactly the best way to do this job, like the way that’s going to help you the most to just— I want to know those things.” So for that...Jess LaheyOkay, so let’s talk about the focus groups. Yeah, the focus groups—because I think A) brilliant, B) how on earth do you get—do you pull a focus group together? Like, it’s something that when most people hear focus groups, they think of, like, oh, you know, this is how you beta test a movie, like.Kate RopeYeah... “Do you like this toilet paper?Jess LaheyYou do a test for a movie and see what the focus group thinks. Right? Exactly. How on earth do you, as a journalist, pull together a focus group? Because that’s such an incredible, valuable— and how do you select who’s going to be in your focus group?Kate RopeYeah, so I have to give—so I have several writing groups, and one of them is professors in the Education Department at Georgia State. So they all write papers and stuff, and we get together, and I write whatever I’m writing, and so—and they’re all in education, and they’re all in early education. And so they interview kids, and so they said to me right off the bat, “You have to do focus groups. You have to have groups.” Because adults, you know, typically one-on-one, you can get them to start talking. But with kids, they’re going to respond to each other, and they’re going to riff off each other and develop a rapport. But—but you can’t have too many. There were definitely some focus groups—I would say the sweet spot is maybe four to six. Six starts to get a little unwieldy, only because you can’t keep them for three hours, and they all have so much good stuff to say. And so I had focus groups that were anywhere from two people to—I think, I think I had a seven—and they were virtual, because the girls were from all over the country and young women, and I wanted them to represent different lived experiences of girls.So, you know, girls are not a monolith. You know, there are some things unique to being a female in our society—challenges, strengths, all those things—and then there are things, you know, that are unique to being a girl of color or living with a physical disability. So I wanted to talk with groups of girls who could speak to just the experience of being a girl and what helped them, and then also whatever, you know, their specific identity or lived experience was—what were the additional inputs that were helpful to them, or additional obstacles that they have ideas about how to help girls overcome. So in that case, I wrote—I reached out to organizations. So I reached out to a bunch of different organizations that work with girls of color, and I just said, “This is what I’m doing.” And literally in the acknowledgments, I say to those organizations, like, “You didn’t have to return my email, but you did,” because I just blind-emailed a bunch of organizations and said, “Here’s what I’m doing. Do you have—?” And a lot of these organizations have, like, an advisory council, or a summer camp or they just, you know, work with the same girls again and again. They have ambassador programs. So, you know, they could—they reached out to their network and said, “Who wants to do this?”And so that was one approach. Same thing with having a focus group of girls living with a physical disability—I reached out to the Disability EmpowHer Network, and they helped me connect with, in that case, I think they were mostly young women. I think they were all about college age, maybe some in high school.And then, let’s see—for neuro—I wanted a big group of girls with neurodivergence, and that I just did pretty much by word of mouth. I created Google Surveys, Google Forms saying, “I’m looking to talk with girls. This is how it’ll go,” and just sent it to everybody, all and sundry, and had caregivers respond and say, “Yes, you know, my child is interested.” Same with LGBTQIA+ kids. So I basically kind of—and—and that was interesting. It was hard for me to find organizations because they are so protective of their LGBTQ youth—which I completely respect—that they don’t really like to do that. So that group, I had to kind of grassroots it, like I did with the girls living with neurodivergence. And I was very clear—and this is an important—we don’t have to do this now if you have more questions—but I definitely want to talk about the ethics and the...Jess LaheyOh, I want to definitely go into this.Kate RopeYeah, yeah.Jess LaheyThis is all really interesting.Kate RopeAnd the parameters—so, so, so my motto is, you know, in the last book was “No mothers will be harmed in the creating of this book.” In this one: “No girls will be harmed in the creating of this book.” So there—I, the only thing I want to publish is some—I want to publish something a girl is happy to see on the page. Because I’m not supporting the mental health and well-being of girls if I am sacrificing one person’s experience and well-being to make a point or whatever. So I made it very clear from the start that they were completely in control of what ended up—I recorded everything, then I chose my quotes, and then I ran them by them. They could change their mind at any time—like, basically, they had total control of what ended up in the book, including an alias or just their first name. You know, if they wanted to say, instead of saying they were from, you know, Encinitas, they wanted to say they were from Southern California. I’m also very careful, having come up as a research director and editor in magazines that I never want to have identifying information about minors. So I didn’t—I would never do a full name and a location. For instance, I would really never do a full name. It’s always just a first name or an alias, and then location in a general enough way. And that kind of depends too on what we’re talking about and how sensitive it is. So...Jess LaheyOne of the fun things that I let the kids do often was pick their own alias if they wanted to. It was a fun way—it was sort of like, “Ooh, that’s exciting, oh my gosh.” And then it turned into, like, a whole project—like, “Oh my gosh, what’s my name going to be?” That was kind of fun too. But I love—I think for a lot of people, especially people who have never done this before, it sounds completely overwhelming to try to ethically get the voices of kids into a book. And it can be easier to, you know, just sort of avoid talking to them directly—which is the problem with a lot of books about kids. Or even when you go into education, and I’m like—every once in a while, I’m like, “Or we could just ask them.” And it seems like there’s a big block about actually talking to the kids themselves, because it is complicated. There are considerations that you have to hold dear to your heart if you really are working for the betterment of kids and not, as you said before—which I really like the way you articulated it—you know, you can’t harm one kid in order to get a story out to lots of others, no matter how helpful you think that story is going to beKate RopeYeah, yeah. And it sounds overwhelming, but first of all, those focus groups were the best part of doing this book. These girls had insight and humor and natural, reflexive inclusivity. And, I mean, they just made me feel better about the world every time I finished. And I mean what I mean—they, sometimes there was one that went for two hours, and that was cool. That was the group of girls who had different neurodivergences, and they got so into each other that, like, at a certain point, I just was sitting there while they were exchanging numbers and sharing what their interests were. And so, so yeah—I, it was so enjoyable, and it wasn’t that overwhelming. Because going through an organization, you’ve got someone helping you, you know, get this all together. You’ve got someone helping you distribute the waivers, because you have to have, you know, release forms signed. And, you know, I just kept a really good Google Sheet of, like, who has signed the waiver, what’s their approved name, what’s their approved quote.So, so that—I think, honestly, that’s not the hardest part. I mean, I think the other—I do try to be really efficient in other ways with my interviewing. With experts, I always do a recorded—nowadays, mostly Zoom—used to be phone interview. Because I don’t know what they’re going to tell me, right? I know what I’m interested in, but I don’t know what they’re going to tell me. With caregivers—and I also have caregiver quotes throughout Strong as a Girl—I usually want to talk to them about a particular topic. You know, “How did you first handle your daughter’s dyslexia diagnosis? How do you talk about sex with your daughter? When did you start? When she’s having really big emotions, how do you guys work through it?” So for that, I just did Google Forms, because they have—they know the answer to that question. I know what I’m looking for. I’m looking for information about specific things to get a sense of different ways families handle things, and they can just respond in a Google Form, and it’s easier than trying to get a busy, you know, parent or caregiver on the phone.Jess LaheyYeah.Kate RopeSo that was how that—so, like—Jess LaheyThat makes a lot of sense.Kate RopeThat made it less overwhelming. I sort of have three tiers of interviews.Jess LaheyHow do you go about organizing—once you have that information? I find then I have a transcript of the interview, or whatever form—I happen to like having the transcript of the interview—and I’ll underline things and flag things. How do you go about organizing? Do you organize by topic? Do you organize by age group? How—you know—what are the ways that you organize the interviews? It sounds like once you have enough of them, it can be really hard to know how you want to use what information and quotes.Kate RopeYeah, I think, I think the hardest thing is—I think I knew pretty much how I wanted to use everything. The hardest part is, like, the copy editor caught that I said one girl lived in Philadelphia in one area of the book, and then I had her in Denver in the other area. And that’s because she was in a focus group with someone from Denver. And so I can’t say I have the answer to that, because I don’t think I did it really well—but I will do better next time. I basically just—I would, I would screen the transcript shortly after the interview or the focus group, because then it was fresh in my mind, and I could sort of remember, “Oh yeah, I want to...” and then I would just highlight, like, whatever the things were that I really liked. And then I just created one master document with all the focus group quotes, you know, and then...Jess LaheyOh, nice!Kate RopeAs I’m thinking about—yeah—and then as I’m thinking about the topics—okay, now I’m in the, you know, the chapter on puberty—I’m going to go through and pull out what quotes speak to that. And I use Scrivener. I’m a huge Scrivener fan. I use one percent of what Scrivener offers. I just use the table of contents on the left so I can just plop—so then I would just plop them in there. So that..Jess LaheyYeah.Kate RopeThat was my approach, yeah.Jess LaheyI think the reason I ask that question is—I think every single writer has had that moment of, “Oh, I know someone said this really cool thing. Who was that? Where did I file it? Where am I going to find it again? It was in a study, it was on a piece of paper, I know I saw it, it had a red mark on the corner.” You know, all these problems we have with our organization—we’re never going to have, I don’t think I’m ever going to have, the perfect system—but I seem to get a little better at it with each mistake I make.Kate RopeYeah, yeah. I sent—I sent, I sent the wrong quote to one of the focus group participants—to her mom. She was the, you know, the conduit—and she said back, she was like, “Goldie—pretty sure she did not say that in the— they did not say that in the focus group.” And I was like, “Really?” And I went through, and sure enough, it was somebody else. And then I reached out to them—“Oh, yeah, I said that.” Because I’d already checked quotes with them. So that’s another reason for checking quotes.Jess LaheyYeah. I also love the idea of making sure that your subject knows that they will have the right to say, “No, I’d rather—even though I know I said that.” You know, it’s—with a kid, you can’t just say, “Okay, this is an on-the-record, off-the-record sort of situation.” So before, for example, in The Addiction Inoculation, and specifically with kids like Georgia and Brian—the two kids I really featured heavily in the book—they had approval over every single thing that was going to be in the final book. And I think at one or two points, just because I felt really protective of them, I was like, “Are you sure this is how you want to say it? You realize, like, people will read this book.” I think there’s this detachment between, like, the things that come out of your mouth and the fact that it will be out there in public, and I sort of saw it partially as my job to fully make sure they understood the implications and the possible outcomes. And I know you don’t have to go that far, but for me, I felt very protective of the kids and wanted to make sure that ethically, everything was on nice, solid footing.Kate RopeYeah, absolutely. And, I mean, the journalism you and I do is not—we are not reporting on politicians who are trying to spin stuff afterward, you know? We’re—we’re telling stories of real people to help real people. So, you know, on the record, off the record, it’s not so—you know, it’s—it’s you have control. And also, obviously, you and I both, like, parent and write from a consent point of view. And so if I’m saying in my book, you know, that a person in a physical interaction can—has—the ability and right to call it off at any time, right?Jess LaheyYep.Kate RopeThen the same goes for their participation in my book.Jess LaheyYeah, absolutely, absolutely. So first of all, one of the things I really loved about this book was the multitude of stories—the multiple angles on the girl experience—and the fact that there wasn’t this one experience that is this monolithic girl experience. I think, especially coming at it from a perspective of someone who is the mom of a kid who maybe doesn’t fit neatly into the box of a, you know, a stereotypical—whatever that is—girl. There’s a lot of ways you can come at this story, and in order to not alienate kids who are not having the experience of, like, whatever it is you want to refer to as a stereotypical girl experience, you have to encompass all of those stories. And I have a lot of respect for the way that you managed to really bring those stories in. So thank you so, so much. As a reader, I really, really appreciated that as well. It just made the book more interesting too, because I have a lot of moments where I’m like, “Oh, that hadn’t occurred to me,” and “That’s not my experience, but cool, now I know what someone else’s experience is.” So the book did double duty for me.Kate RopeWell, thank you. That’s awesome. And yeah—and I think, ultimately, as I think about it, like, it’s really about listening, right? Most of what I’m talking about in the book is about listening and letting the person in front of you tell you who they are. You know, that they come into this world with the raw material they need to survive, and this world throws a lot at them. And so how do you just keep them true to that experience—help them develop that sense of themselves? And that goes for, you know, any kind of experience. That goes for learning, you know, that you’re an introvert, and it’s okay if you don’t want to speak up in class. And I have a quote in the book from you, who said—and I loved it—like everyone says, “Here, let’s teach you how to speak up in class,” and you’re like, “That’s, like, one of the most high-pressure places to speak up.” Like, umm...Jess LaheyAnd listen—that was a place that, well, that was a place that I had to come to. It was—that was a painful evolution for me as a teacher, especially because I am an extrovert, and I’m used to teaching to extroverts. And so for me to learn from Susan Cain the way I did, and learn from her book Quiet, and learn from her pushing back on something I wrote once and saying, “Mm-mmm, that’s not how everyone learns. That’s not how everyone shows that they’re understanding what you’re teaching them.” So that was a painful evolution for me, and I do not take credit for just knowing that stuff—definitely...Kate RopeRight? Well…Jess LaheyThat was a hard one for me.Kate RopeThe world runs on extroverts, right? So, if you—so, if you have an introverted girl, you know it’s a balancing act of completely respecting who she is—celebrating who she is—and then also finding out where you can equip her to operate in the world in a way that helps her, given the world’s expectations. Or understanding the world. You know, in the neurodivergence section, we talked a lot about—and for all these sections—you know, if I was doing a section on, you know, girls of color, or girls with physical disabilities, it was all experts who work in those communities, caregivers whose kids are in those communities, or girls themselves from those communities, because I can’t speak to those experiences. But the people I talked to in the neurodivergence section would talk about how a lot of times parents try to protect them—like, by not telling them about their neurodivergence, or by sort of framing it as a superpower, or not talking about the difficult things. And I think it was Amanda Morin—who’s this awesome neurodivergence and inclusive-schools expert—who said, you know, “We need to teach them about the world’s expectations, not so that they can conform to them, but so that they can understand when they don’t, and advocate for themselves.” So, you know, that’s what this whole thing is about—knowing who you are, understanding a little bit about the world, so that you can be who you are—whether that is, you know, the sex you were assigned at birth, or whether that is living in, you know, a larger body, or all the things. Like, any area where the world is going to try to tack on one more reason a girl isn’t good enough—how do you equip her with, like, real faith and love for who she is? So that was important.Jess LaheySpeaking—well, speaking of neurodivergence, did you have to change anything about the way you ran your focus group or the way you did your interviews, based on the fact that you were then interviewing people with neurodivergence?Kate RopeNo, because they did that for me. They were amazing. I mean, I had one participant who was, I mean, just so eager to share everything. And early on said, “I interrupt. I interrupt all the time.” And then another participant said, “So do I. It’s really hard for me not to. I need to say the thing when I think the thing.” These girls were clearly in families where they had been supported with the right—Jess LaheyAnd empowered...Kate RopeSupported and empowered with, like, you know, the necessary school supports or whatever—but also just the understanding of themselves. And so they knew the language, and at one point, the girl who had started off the bat saying, “I interrupt,” and she wanted to show everything in her room, you know, and I just let her go. Like, I wasn’t about—I wanted to see her as who she was. I wasn’t trying to get anywhere specific with the focus group. I really let that go. But at a certain point, she said, “You know what, I can’t stop interrupting, so I’m just going to mute myself, and you’ll see me talking, because I’ll still be interrupting—but I won’t be interrupting.” And I mean, I was, like, blown away. I mean...Jess LaheyWow!Kate RopeJust the—in all the groups—the self-awareness...Jess LaheyYeah.Kate RopeThe skills they had developed, you know—and sometimes I would talk to girls who—kids who, you know, had been hurt by their experiences growing up. And I could feel that, but they had processed it. You know, maybe if, from their family of origin, they weren’t getting everything they needed, but I got to them through a mentoring organization where they were starting to get that. And so they were able to articulate what those challenges were and what they wish they had had. So it’s not that they—it was all, you know, rainbows and—and, you know, puppies, but...Jess LaheyWell, it sounds like going to…Kate RopeBut they all had incredible insight.Jess LaheyIt sounds like going to the kids also through organizations that had given them that opportunity to learn about their empowerment and to give them the language also helped you, because then again, as I said, you didn’t have to—you didn’t have to work quite so hard to help elicit some of the conversations that you needed.Kate RopeRight.Jess LaheyIt sounds like that was a really smart way to go.Kate RopeYeah, these—these kids were in those organizations, in those conversations already. You know?Jess LaheyI’ve learned some of the hardest lessons about interviewing when I’m trying to transcribe my own notes. And Tim laughs every single time I do this, because then I hear myself talking too much, and I’m like, “Oh my gosh, just shut up. Shut up. Let them talk. What the heck are you doing?” And that—I think that was one of the greatest lessons I had to learn through all of my journalism and through all of my writing these books—is sometimes you just got to shut up. And that’s why I think having these other kids available in the focus groups—brilliant—because they’ll egg each other along, they’ll get conversations going, and you can just shut up and step back a little bit. I love that.Kate RopeYeah, and they’ll—they’ll, you know, in that particular focus group, the one girl who was interrupting a lot, another one was starting to have difficulty with it, and she was so respectful in how she said it. She said, “I feel differently than you do, and it’s hard for me to think when you’re talking so much.” And maybe it was after that that she said, “Okay, I’ll mute myself.” But they were expressing these things to each other in the most kind and direct and empowered ways. But I’m a huge talker, as you can already tell on this podcast, and I do talk too much. And so, I mean, literally every focus group opens with me, like, blathering on about what I’m doing, and then me eventually saying, “You know, I’m going to shut up and you guys talk.”Jess LaheyIt was also big—it’s a big thing that happened in my teaching, as well, when I let them sort of lead class a little bit more, and I got to step back and just sort of watch them do their thing. I learned way more about them. They learned way more from each other. And it was—it worked all the way around. So, is there anything else you wanted to share with us about the interviewing process for this book? I mean, you have so much experience in interview space, and I love that you’re just talking and talking, because I’m actually learning a ton from you.Kate RopeOh, thanks. That means a lot, because I’ve learned so much from you. I have your book right here. I’ve got my, like—my “best of.” So…it was difficult to—I got men. I did, I did get some dads, but it was difficult. And if I were doing this book again, or if I do a similar book, I’ll really—you know—it’s harder. There aren’t organizations. There aren’t super-active Facebook groups of dads, you know, but it’s growing. There’s a lot more attention paid. And so I will definitely start out earlier thinking about what are the harder people to reach, and I’m going to prioritize reaching out to them. So it’s not like, “Oh God, I got to turn this book in, and okay, I heard from five fathers, and that’s just going to have to be good enough,” you know?Jess LaheyThat’s a really good point. I’ve actually done a lot of thinking about ways to access more fathers as well. And I was thinking, okay, maybe you could come at it from the influencer angle, or the—you know, that kind of thing. It is tougher, especially in the education space. And there are lots of conversations in education about how do we make it clearer to fathers that they are really and truly invited into education in a way that traditionally it’s just been the moms. And it has been—it’s been tougher, but I think it’s really valuable and really worth doing. So I’m so glad you brought that up.Kate RopeYeah, and as we’re talking about it, I’m thinking focus groups could be really good for that. I mean, it’s hard—it’s hard to get adults available at the same time. It was hard to get kids available at the same time. But it’s—you know, I don’t want to throw men under the bus, but like—like kids, they might do better sparking each other’s ideas...Jess LaheyYeah, absolutely.Kate Rope…than having to just make it up from whole cloth when you’re asking them. And, you know, I think people—they get nervous. They think this is like a permanent record, or, you know, it’s like those—you know, those old-timey photographs of people who are like, “This is the record of this moment of our lives.” And so, you know, I did the same thing with caregivers that I— I mean, mostly I did Google Forms with caregivers, but I did interview some on the phone or in person, and I said the same thing to them: “You’re in charge of what goes in this book.” You know?Jess LaheyLove it. I absolutely love it, and you’ve written a really powerful book. You’ve written a really wonderful and eloquent book. I’m really excited to be able to take it around and hold it up and say, if you want to read a book about, you know, girls and parenting girls and taking care of girls and raising girls, here’s a new book that I really, really recommend. So thank you so much for writing the book. It was a pleasure to read—it really was.Kate RopeThank you. That means—you have no idea. I mean, just even coming on this podcast is, like I said, leveling up. It’s like, you know, I remember reading and meeting you guys for the first time at Mom 2.0 when my book was coming out, and I had no idea what I was doing. I still think I wouldn’t know what I was doing if I went to a thing like that again. But, like, I’m just not a networker. Worship is a strong word, but definitely looking up to you guys, you know? And listening to the podcast, you know, every episode—and then I’m like, “I’m going to be on it.”Jess LaheyWell, if people want to learn more about you, where could they go to do that?Kate RopeYes, my website is katerope.com. I’m on Instagram.Jess LaheyA lovely website. I was there just earlier today. It’s a lovely website.Kate RopeI am very happy with Booyah Creative—Kayleen Mendenhall, who designed it—@kateropewriter on Instagram. And I have a Substack, Strong as a Human. You’ll find me any of those places.Jess LaheyOh, I love that.Kate RopeAnd Strong as a...Jess LaheyWe will put you—all of your stuff—yep, we’re going to put the cover in the show notes; we’ll put all the links in the show notes. And I’m just really grateful to you. Thank you so much for taking time to come on the show, and for everyone else, you know how it goes... Until next week, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.NarratorThe Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

THE SCAMS. They’re getting wilder and wilder, and harder and harder to spot up front or even before you hand over the cash, if the scammer is faking a service you’d have to pay for. We’re all getting these endlessly in non-writing life too, the ticket you didn’t get, the recruiter who isn’t one… I had a friend get a VERY real one that looked like it was from her town, about an existing work permit for work they were doing. The tell in that case was that it asked for a wire transfer, and in that town, you wander into town hall, hand them a check and also explain that you really paid that meter but you hit the wrong button for a car on ParkMobile.One important link we mention: https://wheregoes.com, where you can check any link you’re given to see where it really goes—and you should.Here’s Rachael’s episode where she reads you her whole scammy letter, and talks about getting so jaded that she almost didn’t open the email from her publicist telling her she’d hit the list: http://www.howdoyouwrite.net/episodes/i-hit-the-usa-today-bestseller-list-and-a-warningAnd to sign up for all Rachael’s writerly things (which are EXCELLENT), go to https://rachaelherron.com/write. Transcript Below!KJ Dell’AntoniaKids, I am here today with Rachael and with Sarina. And the reason that I asked Rachael to join us is that on one of the episodes of her podcast, Ink in Your Veins—link in the show notes—she read, in great detail, a letter from a scammer that she almost fell for. And man, I could see why. And right at that exact same moment, Sarina had been forwarding similar stuff, and even since we had that little conversation, the level of opportunities to fall for this stuff has gotten even greater. So this is us recording an episode to help you figure out which of those emails in your inbox are from scammers. You know, spoiler—“all of them”—and how to spot them, how to feel about them, and how not to fall into ye olde traps. So, Rachael, do you want to start? You don’t have to read the entirety of that letter. For that, y’all can go and listen to the episode of Rachael’s podcast. But just tell us a little bit about it. It was so specific.Rachael HerronIt sure was that was the —first of all, thanks for having me and the and the thing that really chapped my hide about it, as I said in that podcast, is that we do get, you know, as authors whose—I think that our emails should be out there, right? Readers should be able to get a hold of us and you know, a scouting film, film agent needs to know how to find us to give us lots of money. So our email should be out there. And we’ve always got always gotten scam emails, but this one the very first one I got, and since then, have, like you said, have gotten plenty more. Sorry, let me bring it up here. It was about my book, Eliza’s Home, which is actually, it’s not even a full novel—it’s a novella. And the person who wrote it was named Timmy. Just Timmy, may I point out. But he was the founder of “Lit Flare Book Marketing Agency”. And honestly, “Lit Flare Book Marketing Agency”—that sounds pretty great. I mean, that’s actually a good, good name. I would be surprised if that weren’t a real one. And what he did was, yes, he flattered the book. But more than that, he demonstrated that he understood publishing. He—he called me out in a good way. He complimented me for knowing the industry and for being a hybrid writer. And hybrid writer is not a word that anybody who is not inside baseball uses. You know, hybrid publishing is one thing. Hybrid writers are completely different thing. Hybrid writers are people who both self-publish and traditionally publish. He says, you know, and he knew all of the genres that I wrote, including under a pen name that I use. And he complimented that. He complimented the whole world of this book. He taught—and this is the thing—he talked about some things that I had never thought of. This is post-war fiction. It was basically a prequel novella set after World War II in this small town. And he talked about how you could market this novella to people who enjoy post-war fiction.KJ Dell’AntoniaSee—all you’re doing here is making me want to fall into this person’s web.Rachael HerronI immediately was struck by, “Well, this has to be—it has to be spam, right? It has to be.” But the more I read it, the more closely I read it, I was like, “This person really understands,” and this is not something that he could have found just by scraping Eliza’s Home and all of the information on Amazon, on the Kindle website, right? It wasn’t available. It wasn’t there. But what I think they’re doing—and correct me if you think I’m wrong—but I think that there’s just some, there’s somebody out there either teaching or disseminating this information on how to scrape everything. They basically went and scraped everything about me as a writer from everywhere, and then pitched it toward this book. And it did sound so good, and he did talk about marketing opportunities that I had not thought about. And I thought, “Oh, this person really must know what they—who—you know, they must really know what they’re doing.” So of course, then, because I have been around a while, I started researching. And I Googled his email—absolutely no hits. I looked up… did he have a website at that point? No, he didn’t have a website. “Lit Flare Book Marketing Agency” did have something online, but it was one of those, you know, temporary free sites that had just been built. So of course, it was bam. But the thing that got me so upset is that it’s going to trick people. He will absolutely have people fall for this. They will have people fall for this. “Have you? Have you? I want to hear about what Sarina’s gotten, and KJ, you must have gotten some of these by now.”Sarina BowenYeah.Rachael HerronWhat are you all seeing?Sarina BowenSo let’s take a step back and just let make sure everybody understands that we’re talking about an email that goes into depth about why your book is great and why it should be read by a wider audience. Rachael HerronYes.Sarina BowenAnd um, I have gotten several of these, and the first one was so horrifically specific to my actual book, except for one huge tell, which is that, um, which is that, um, it was all about, like, here’s the character, and he’s so wonderful, and you’ve got this setup, and it’s so great, and this world that you’ve built is fantastic. And more readers should know about this. It’s a tragedy that they don’t. They were passionate about this idea, and, and, but the thing that was, the problem is they’re like, and it only has two ratings on Goodreads. And the thing is, though, that that book doesn’t—didn’t come out for months. Look, it was a month’s forward in the future publication at that point. So I…Rachael HerronWow.Sarina BowenKnew right away that that person like looked like they were paying attention, but wasn’t really paying attention. So, you know, it says, “So my slightly psycho question: do we let Thrown for a Loop keep skating in circles with too few reviews, or do we blast it into the net where it belongs—loud, messy, and impossible to ignore?” And then there’s a string of emojis, like it’s just so over the top. And the thing is that for years, you could spot the low-rent pitches. You know, “I want to improve the SEO of your website,” by their horribleness—like by their bad grammar, by their insufficient detail. But now, what I think is happening, even though I haven’t tested this myself, is there are some AI search engines out where you can provide web links, and all you’d have to do is put a link to the NetGalley listing of this book, put a link to my author bio, and put a link to the Goodreads page for this book. And you could scrape so much information about what the book is about and why people might care. And you could scrape so much information about what the book is about and why people might care. And I think somebody has written a prompt that just, like, makes that email easy to write in, like, 15 seconds. It’s like—remember the olden days when there was no spam? And then people started figuring out, like, “Oh, wait, I could send the same message to a million people inside of one day.” And then that was a, you know, an idea that we had to teach our parents what spam was. Well, this is, like, the version 2.0 of that. It’s just—it’s going to be incredibly easy for people to write you emails where it sounds like they’re passionate and they know what they’re talking about, and they just don’t.KJ Dell’AntoniaAnd it—it kind of hurts. I—you know, Rachael recorded her podcast pretty soon, I think, after getting this. And, you know, they say lovely things, and then it’s just—it’s not even a little bit real. Like, it’s just great, and it almost—it’s almost painful. And I want to point out that this is—so this is one level of this: the wonderful marketing email you are getting that is specific to you that seems like a great person that’s really going to help you out. The person’s not real. The stuff’s not real. None of it’s real. Another level that I know Sarina has seen lately is basically anything that you have that is publicly available can turn into this. So can you talk a little bit about the trademark ones you’re seeing now?Sarina BowenOoh, absolutely. I filed a trademark for one of the aspects of my business, which is just, you know, everybody does it—no big deal. And my trademark attorney warned me that the minute we filed, I was going to get junk mail. And it looked so legitimate, because anytime you’re filing anything that is public record—so that’s like a trademark application, that is the filing for your LLC, of your business. If you do that—even just, uh, doing business as an as name—if you file that with your state, you will start to get spam that’s like, “You have to do the following: send in this fee.” And so that’s getting easier. Like, anything that can be automated can be automated to try to trip us up. So writer scams are just going to get bigger and uglier than they have been in the past, and we have to help all of our friends be mindful of this.KJ Dell’AntoniaSo, Rachael, when you were looking into this to figure out if this person was real, can you walk us through some of the things that… and there is no person. That’s—that’s the frustrating thing. Like, we can’t help but say he and Timmy and—and they—but there’s no, there’s—there’s no, no, there’s no Timmy there.Rachael HerronThere’s no Timmy. That is made up.KJ Dell’AntoniaIt seems so, like, we’re such a small niche, but I guess any niche is big enough now.Rachael HerronWe’re such a small niche, and people are desperate enough. If somebody only has one book out, and perhaps they have written alone, and they don’t have a community to help them realize this stuff and to tell them that it’s okay—nobody knows how to sell a book. New York doesn’t know how to sell a book. We’re all just trying to do the best we can. These people don’t know how to sell a book. They think, “Oh, I’ve only, I’ve only sold, you know, 50 copies of my book. I need help. And this person loves my book. I’m going to ask them to help me.” Of course, they have all these complimentary things to say. Since I got that first one, I’ve gotten, you know, dozens and dozens. And—and I really, for a while there, I admitted this on the podcast—that I was having too good a time, maybe playing with them just a little bit. And I would write back—because none of them, it’s bad, it’s not good—but none of them had a website link. So I would write back immediately and say, “Oh, I’ve been looking for someone to help me. Do you have a website, though? I can’t really trust anybody without a website.” And then it would be a few hours, and you could tell that they had thrown a website together. So I really kind of enjoyed that I was making them work quite hard to throw this website together. But here’s the thing that’s scarier about that: they know that we’re talking, and that we’re telling newer writers about this. And now, the ones I’m seeing, they have a website that—usually, you can tell by the URL—is not really professional. It is not “Litflaremarketing.com.” It is a “XYZgen.free.site.litflare.movie” or something, you know. It’s just not a real URL. But they also have LinkedIn profiles now for Timmy and his friends. They have—yeah, they have Instagram that they’re claiming, Facebook’s in order to set this up. So you can go, so you can find that they actually do have… well, it’s not an established presence. You can see that they have a presence, but you can tell that it’s not established, and they are not connected with people, and nobody is recommending them. So you can spend time doing that. I think that there are going to be so many of them, that we used to recommend: Google “Lit Flare Marketing Agency” plus the word “scam.” That was fine when there were a few of them. But when there are going to be dozens of them, more—hundreds of them a day being created—that’s not going to give any results. I think that the hard truth, and—and something that, you know, we need to be talking about more, is that mostly, excellent publicists, excellent marketing people who know what they’re doing and who can help sell some books—because they’ve got a lot of time in the industry—are not going to be reaching out cold. They do not make cold calls.Sarina BowenThat is right. They don’t.Rachael HerronThey don’t make cold calls in this industry.Sarina BowenRight. And even this—even filters down to newsletter advertising for books. Which—by which I mean—BookBub is the most famous one, and authors should feel very confident going to submit for an ad on BookBub. And there are some—there’s another, a second tier: Written Word Media does a nice job. Like, there’s—there’s some places. But I get a lot of emails from those, from people that are trying to appear like that: Hey, we have a network of 5,000 readers, and we want to share. And those people are not soliciting you. They are too busy doing their job. So, yeah.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, I think we’re at the point where you have to assume: if it’s in your inbox and you didn’t ask for it, it’s not real.Rachael HerronYep. And that goes for famous authors writing…KJ Dell’AntoniaOh, that’s right; this was another one that you mentioned. This was…Rachael HerronI haven’t figured out the angle on this one, but I’ve got about five of them now from famous authors, big names, who are reaching out to me to say, “Hey, you know, I discovered your books, and I’m also an author. Would you like to chat?” And I—and I didn’t. I have not known what to do with them, but with Colleen Hoover, I did play too hard. I went over the line, I wrote back to her. She says, she says, “I love connecting with fellow authors and hearing about the stories they’re working on.” And I wrote back, “Are you published?” And she wrote back, “I am a published author. I’d love you to check out my books.” And then I wrote back, “Good for you. How cute that book looks. I wish you the best with that. I do charge $350 an hour for writing coaching, and I charge by the minute, so you owe me $17 so far. How would you like to pay, and when shall we meet on Zoom?”Sarina BowenThat is fantastic!Rachael HerronBut this scammer—I love this person so much—because they wrote back. It looks like about 14 minutes later: “I just sent the payment.”KJ Dell’AntoniaOh sure, Oh my god.Rachael HerronAnd I was like, you are amazing. Like this person is now playing with me just as much. And then it then, you know, we never heard from each other again. But that was, that was amazing.Sarina BowenDo you know who would love this story?Rachael HerronWho?Sarina BowenColleen Hoover, because, because she is not afraid to play with people who mess with her—like she would do the exact same thing. “By the way, you owe me $17.” That—really, she would. You know, you two should meet.Rachael HerronSo maybe it was her—she was saying, “I already sent you the money.” But, you know, and—and in terms of her email, it was like, I can just look at it. It was something that would not fool me, but would fool somebody else. Colleen.Colleenhoover@gmail.com—that almost looks… and all spelled correctly. That is, like, the way her name is spelled. That might fool somebody else. But I’ve gotten, I’ve gotten a bunch of these now. But what are they after? What do you think they’re going to do? I don’t know. I don’t know what the friend’s angle is.Sarina BowenWell…send you a bill, obviously.Rachael HerronBut yeah, you know what?KJ Dell’AntoniaColleen Hoover needs a loan—is actually what I… yea, I have no idea. I have no idea what they eventually ask you for. But, umm…Sarina BowenI love it when I can’t figure out what the scam is. I got one just today or yesterday that was offering to write me a Wikipedia page. And of course, I didn’t engage—I just walked away because I didn’t have time to play with them like you. But I’m like, okay…Rachael HerronYeah.Sarina BowenWhat’s the angle there?Rachael HerronWhat is the angle there? There was one that I—there was one that I couldn’t figure out, because I also have a Shopify store where I sell some of my self-published books. And I kept getting many, many sales. I mean, I’m still getting these many sales of Eliza’s Gift [Eliza’s Home] this novella, because I think it’s the cheapest one there. Many sales to weird names—“Tomize Yourbrothe”—and three or four a day.Sarina BowenI know what those are.Rachael HerronAnd nobody buys this book. Those are—I think they are—somebody fishing credit cards, right?Sarina BowenYes, it’s credit fraud. They are trying…Rachael HerronLike, they’re making sure that the credit card works.Sarina BowenSo if you have a Shopify store with a free item in it…Rachael HerronI do!Sarina BowenThen you could get, then you could get 1000 of those a day.Rachael HerronOh no! They haven’t tried the… they haven’t tried the free thing.Sarina BowenAnd also…Rachael HerronJust the $3.99.Sarina BowenEmpty cart is what I’ve heard people complain about. Like, if—if somebody… this is a known scam. If you are really struggling with it, I know some people you could talk to about it. But they will either try to charge through, and if it bounces, like, you—you still owe Shopify, like, a few cents or something like that. There’s some…Rachael HerronOh how rude.Sarina BowenWay in which this is making people’s lives really horrible.Rachael HerronThank you. I will look in—I will look more into that. So, scammer is going to scam, and it is disappointing. And we have to be talking about it more, I think, which is why I think it’s so awesome that you’re doing this particular show.Sarina BowenWell, I appreciate your attitude about it. It’s so great. And I do agree with you. It’s just that the hard thing about talking about this is that we are just living in a different world. And it hurts me to acknowledge that. Like, in 2015, every email that came into my inbox deserved a reply—one, because I was a baby author who needed to, you know, engage with everybody who wanted to email me. And then, you know, life got, like, louder and weirder. And now the truth is, we don’t answer every email that comes in—not even the ones that aren’t scammy. We just can’t anymore. So, um, it’s partly because of what has happened to email, and just partly that this business got busier. But, um—but it’s hard to, like, sit here and acknowledge with you guys that, like, yeah, I’m a harder person than I was 10 years ago. I do not have patience for your little, you know, quasi-scam emails, because not everything is a scam. Like, some people are soliciting for, like, badly—bad outcome businesses—and we cannot sort through all that stuff, because our time is valuable. I mean…Rachael HerronAnd this—this reminds me of something that happened just like that, maybe the next week after I did that show. It was that, you know, when you get these emails, a lot of times they will put the book title in the subject line. So, you know, Abigail’s Shop, Fantastic, can’t wait to… and then you can’t read the whole thing. And one morning, I came, looked at my email, and there were a bunch of them—maybe five or six of them. And at the top it said, The Seven Miracles of Beatrix Holland: USA Today. And that’s my most recent book. And I’m like, oh, these jerks are now spam—and they have been spamming me on this book in particular. But—but I opened it, and it was from my publicist, who was saying, “You’ve hit the USA Today bestseller list.”Sarina BowenOh No!Rachael HerronAnd I opened it with such an attitude, ready to hit spam.Sarina BowenAh…yeah.KJ Dell’AntoniaSometimes the good news is real. And also, I guess a nice thing about these is that—unlike, you know—as long as you don’t hit any links, just opening the emails…Rachael HerronOpening the emails cannot hurt you—don’t hit the links. I do. I do hit the links. Yeah, I do hit the links—when they, when they… when carefully. I do live dangerously. And I’m—and I’m doing a lot less of it, because I did also have the realization that the more that I play with them, the more I’m training their email delivery system that this is a good email address to send to. So it’s just better to report spam and block. Report spam and block. It’s just not as much fun. And every day I have a weak day—I just had it the other day—where I was like, I just… oh, this was my newest fun thing. I was just in a mood, and I wrote back, “Really?” And they wrote back excitedly. And then I said, “Yes.” And I would just write one word at a time until they stopped. They knew they weren’t going to get anything else from me, but it was really enjoyable.KJ Dell’AntoniaAll right, so I want to go through a list of things people—okay—people can do. But first, Sarina has something to add.Sarina BowenI just want to say that if you ever have an email that’s really confused you, and you’re not sure about that link, there are lots of little websites where you can check a link. Like, WhereGoes.com—you can type in the link you’ve been sent, and it will look at the redirect and tell you where you’re going to end up.Rachael HerronOh, that’s fab... and it’s called WhereGoes.com?Sarina BowenUh huh. But there’s more…Rachael HerronThat’s awesome. Yeah, yeah.Sarina BowenYou can Google, where does this link go? And then you’ll be shown…Rachael HerronRight.KJ Dell’AntoniaOkay. So that goes on the list.Rachael HerronThat is very, very smart.KJ Dell’AntoniaSo, listen, people, first of all, it’s—it’s spam. It’s fake. I’m sorry. But if you have doubts, look at the email address. If it’s from Colleen Hoover… at Coll—your—what was yours?Rachael HerronMine was Colleen.Colleenhoover@gmail.com.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, so if you see something like Colleen.ColleenHoover or, you know, Colleen.ColleenSnoover@gmail—okay, that’s dubious. Or if it’s from Colleen.ColleenHoover.movie… that’s a red flag. Basically, if it’s a weird sender address, it’s probably wrong. And the same goes for links. If the “Marriott” email is from Marriott.Reservations@guestreservations.com—that’s not real. That’s not actually Marriott. That’s just going to take you somewhere else. Sarina and I were talking this morning about a whole different line of scams, and here’s the rule: if you’re ever tempted to click, don’t—at least not right away. Like Sarina said, you can check it first. Go to a site like WhereGoes.com and paste the link in, or just Google “where does this link go?” to see what pops up. But honestly, the smarter move is to pull yourself out of the email completely. If it’s real—say, “Hi, I’m from PRH and I want this”—then don’t use the link in the message. Just go to the website yourself. Type it in, log in the way you normally do, and see if it’s actually there. It’s the same thing you’d do if you got an email from your bank or your credit card. Don’t click through—go around. Do the thing you know is safe, and then check. And the truth is, most of the time? It won’t be real.Rachael HerronBut what for—just let’s take a moment with that too. What if an editor at Penguin Random House heard about you from their best friend, read your book, and they really did want to reach out to you? That editor is going to be savvy enough to know that you can—you can go to the Penguin Random House site, look for that editor, and you can even respond to the person you’re worried is a scammer, saying, “I get so much spam, and I’m going to email you from your work address. Is that okay?” And that editor will say nothing but, “Oh, that’s pretty smart. Yeah, I would do that—go ahead and do that.” They understand.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, and just make sure it doesn’t say, you know, “Tara at Singcarlson. Gmail.com,” you know?Rachael HerronIf it isn’t a Gmail.com, it is spam. Period.KJ Dell’AntoniaProb… yeah, probably.Rachael HerronA business person will probably not be using Gmail by this…KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, they might not. But there’s the slimmest chance they made a mistake. But again, like Rachael said, find the real emails. I mean, really—if a real editor has emailed you, and the… any email is—call the main number of the publishing house and say, I got an email that says it’s from this person. Can you give me their actual email address? And they will do it.Rachael HerronAnd they will do it.KJ Dell’AntoniaBe careful out there, kids. It’s so depressing that we are doing this. Although I was telling Sarina my theory this morning, which is that this is going to force us all back offline. Like you’re going to have to read an actual newspaper, because no link you get can you ever be sure it goes to an actual newspaper? You’re going to have to call the hotel or the restaurant to make a reservation, because the restaurants are going to give up, because they can’t fight the bots. And you won’t know if you got a real hotel. You’re going to have to call the theater to make—you know, it’s just… we’re not going to be able to—we can’t have nice things, people. And this nice thing—I think that’s, that’s where it’s going to be. That’s my theory anyway, that would be good.Rachael HerronI’ve got, you know—in New Zealand, everyone calls everybody else, and it’s horrifying. I’ve got to tell you, like, it’s just… it’s just assumed. I once had my phone ring, and, of course, I didn’t answer it, because I’ve moved here from America.KJ Dell’AntoniaOf course!Rachael HerronAnd—and then the second time it rang, I thought it almost might be important. And I think it was—I don’t know who it was, maybe my dentist or something. And when I answered, she said, “I just called you, but—but no one answered.” I know! American—we don’t, we don’t do that. Yeah, right. But yeah, America is now going to be going the New Zealand way.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah. Yeah. Well, maybe—maybe not.Rachael HerronWorse things could happen.KJ Dell’AntoniaAnybody have any last advice for people on the subject of not falling into this?Rachael HerronMaybe talk to your friends about it, too. If you’ve got writer friends out there, talk to your pals, because it can be fun to screenshot the most egregious of them and send them back and forth. I mean, it is fun—that is, talk smack about it.KJ Dell’AntoniaIf your mother-in-law has been working on a book for a little while…Rachael HerronUh… Lord!KJ Dell’AntoniaYou know, maybe has reached out to some writer sites, and you might want to just, you know, subtly let some people in your life that might need this information—you might want to try to find a way to pass it on. All right. Thank you so much, Rachael, for coming and talking about this. Thanks for taking the time. Sarina and I are so grateful. We are—all our listeners are. All of the things we talked about today are in the show notes, and all of the information about how to check out Rachael’s podcast—How Do You Write now called Ink in Your Veins—which you absolutely should be listening to if you aren’t already. I’ll put the link…Rachael HerronEspecially the episode or two with KJ on there.KJ Dell’AntoniaOh, well, sure. But also to the episode about hitting the USA Today bestseller list and getting this scam at the same time. Rachael has written a bunch of great books, one of which—the most recent—is The Seven Miracles of Beatrix Holland. Which… did I get the title right? I hope I did.Rachael HerronYou did!KJ Dell’AntoniaOkay... I loved—and Rachael and I are going to be talking about it on a separate episode—but absolutely check her out. She is worthy of your writerly and readerly time. And that’s it from us, kids. So until next week—or until next time—keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.NarratorThe Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Here’s this week’s episode, which we accidentally tucked behind the paywall in the first send. Friday #AmWriting is always free—but if you’re already a paid sub, thanks! And if not… maybe now’s the time?Every draft gets messy. Characters show up too early, reveals happen too late, and suddenly nothing’s where it “should” be. In this episode, Jennie and KJ talk how to tackle the chaos and keep your words flowing.Episode is free for all and romping through podplayers everywhere. Transcript is below—for paid subscribers only (because they cost $$ to make—thanks for helping us keep them coming!)(Hearing impaired? Shoot us a note and we’ll work it out.)Because Free Doesn’t Cover TranscriptsTRANSCRIPTKJ Dell’AntoniaI had written about 13,000 words-ish, and sort of vaguely call it the first five chapters, sort of. I have my loose, rickety Inside-Outline, which gets to the end and becomes almost an only emotion outline, because I’m not entirely sure I know what’s going to happen. I’m not entirely sure how. And, you know, we talked about that, so that’s fine. Like, I’m working—I’m working from that. I’m not working—it’s not like, and next I will write this. It’s more like, here’s the—what—whatever scene I write next, here’s why it has to happen, plot-wise, and here’s why it has to happen, emotion-wise. But it may not be exactly what I outlined. So I’m actually making an outline of what I actually wrote as I write it, which is kind of fun. But then as I’m—so as I’m doing that, and kind of comparing what I think is going to happen to what I’m writing, I realized, after I sent you a big chunk, which we’re partly excited about and partly not—and then it was—it was great—I realized that I needed something. Some things were out of order. Like, I started to write the thing that was the next up in my kind of vague plan, and then I was like, oh, wait. Like, I can’t have—this person can’t be doing this before—or they’re—like, I need—I need—anyway, so I’ve ended up—I went back, but I’m not revising. I’m actually sticking in new things already. So it’s like that 13,000 words is stretching out into, you know, probably 20,000 words as we approach. So I’m still in the world before the big death happens, because there were things... but also, in part, because it was getting too long. Like...Jennie NashYeah. Yeah.KJ Dell’AntoniaSo I needed things—so I needed to move some action. I was like, oh, well, now I’m supposed to have, like, five more things happen before the death. I can’t put another 10,000 words in here. Those things have to go back up. They have to start happening within what I’ve already done. So some of it was that as well.Jennie NashWell, it was super fun to read your pages, because I can just feel the wheels turning, I guess, or the engine of the whole thing. And there were parts of it that felt super assured and like, oh, this is going to be good. And you really know this character now, which is what you’ve been circling around—like, really, who is this and really what’s going on here? And that was so fun to see. It was like, oh, yeah, more of this. This is great. This is—this is going to be good. And then there were other parts, it was like, well, what’s happening here?KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, well, that was one of the parts that was like this. That was—it was in the wrong place. It was like; I was trying to do too much sort of introductory throat clearing.Jennie NashSo, KJ, I want to stop and ask you a question about something you just said, because you whizzed by it and it’s—it’s like an incredible skill that you have. Where you said something was out of order. It wasn’t that the thing was—what you wrote was not good or not right for the book. It was that you determined it was in the wrong place. And there’s so much that goes into that, like it’s about thought, but it’s also about rhythm and pacing and feel. And I just feel like that’s something a lot of people don’t know how to do. Like, can you talk about that for a hot second?KJ Dell’AntoniaI can try. Some of this I learned from Sarina [Sarina Bowen], and from reading her thriller draft while she was still working on it, and talking about the process of paying attention to what the reader learns when—both from a thriller... this works—it’s not just from a thriller perspective, it’s also—I think we all have this urge to sort of, like, introduce—like you—when you read Save the Cat and you read all this, there’s—there’s an introductory period where you have to establish that you know your protagonist, everything is going wrong in their home life, their work life, and their emotional life. And the reason for that is—the you know—their emotional flaw. I’m probably mashing together a lot of different systems here. So you learn that, and then, you know, you want to write, like, 30,000 words of what’s wrong with your character and what’s going on—it’s all backstory. And then, you know, maybe you do that, and you realize there’s not enough action in it, and there’s not—you know, you do want the reader to know those things, but they need to know it more gradually. And then you start paying attention in the books that you’re reading to how little you maybe know before things happen, and how much fun it is to figure things out. Even silly things like, oh, you know, why—why are they not going back to their apartment all day? And it turns out to be because their ex was clearing their stuff out of there that day or something like that. But they don’t say that, because that’s not how they think about it. They just think, all right, can’t go back to the apartment, damn it, you know? And I just spilled coffee all over myself. Where am I going to take a shower? Better call this friend. And so your brain is like, wait, why can’t you go back? And so creating—building that—is really hard. And I think paying close attention as you read, and learning to pay attention even as you read for fun to what’s making it fun is kind of what has helped me build that. And again, then watching Sarina build her endings and be like, oh, I gave this up too soon—which is a different process. So I was more—I’m more in the “I took too long to tell you this,” or “I took too long to let this happen.” I worried too much about telling you everything before I let it happen. I’m at that stage—like at the beginning of the book. Things need to happen while you’re telling the reader things.Jennie NashWell, this is so good because what you’re really saying is that you’re not just writing your story—you’re thinking about the reader’s experience of being in your story. I mean, that’s the pro move, right? Is...KJ Dell’AntoniaI hope so.Jennie NashDoing both things at the same time—like, what—what is the reader going to know? What are they going to feel? What are they going to think? What’s—what’s your question—what’s going to be fun for them?KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah.Jennie NashSuch a good question.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah. And this is a multi-protagonist book—or not multi—it’s not—it’s a multi-POV book with one protagonist. So that balance is also really interesting. And I’ve tried to pay attention to how other people do that. But that was part of it—was realizing that’s what that was. The mistake that I was making was—I had—there’s going to be five points of view, but, as I said, one protagonist. And so I had given you two of the other points of view, and one of them—um, Summer—was—was embroiled in the action. Like, I feel like that one in turn—but the other one was too introductory. It was too much this—and so I moved that to after Nate breaks his leg. That’s when we really meet her for the first time. And it’s just very—and it—so it makes things happen faster.Jennie NashThat’s so good. That’s so good.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, we don’t need—we don’t need an introduction to her, and we’re not really getting an introduction to any of these other characters other than through the protagonist. You just suddenly get their point of view. And that’s—I don’t know that. It feels modern, it feels fast. We’ll see...Jennie NashWell, and it’s—the other point of view, are there not to tell their own story...KJ Dell’AntoniaRight.Jennie NashBut that’s a structure, but that’s not your structure. They’re there to help—to tell the protagonist’s story.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, and to help—yeah, they have their own stories, but exactly—exactly. They’re there to tell—I mean, they’re there to help tell the protagonist’s story. But really, they’re also there... they’re there because they need to be there to tell the larger story.Jennie NashRight. Right.KJ Dell’AntoniaSo they’re there for the plot story, but the plot story all is also very intertwined with the protagonist’s story. So—but—but—yeah, so every time—but every time I go to them, it needs to be, why are we here? Like we can’t—I can’t ever just go to that other—that other point of view so we learn what’s going on with that point of view. That’s not why they’re there.Jennie NashRight.KJ Dell’AntoniaThey’re only there if it’s something about the mystery or something about the protagonist.Jennie NashThat’s good. That’s a good stress test.KJ Dell’AntoniaIt is, and—and it’s been—I mean, I’m glad I sort of sorted that out so quickly. I feel like in my initial draft of The Chicken Sisters, even though it didn’t have other points of view, it had some extraneous subplots that were just there for the subplot.Jennie NashYeah. Yeah. Well, you’re on your way. And some of the writing was—was like I said—I used the word assured. It was—I particularly love your writing about—I mean, this book has a lot of—the setting is important. There’s a natural spaces setting that we’re in a lot, and the way you write about that is really good and really puts us there. And it’s clear that you—that you’ve spent a lot of time in that space. You know, like literally walking through snow. That is not a thing I’ve spent a lot—a lot of time doing, and your writing about it really put me there, which was cool.KJ Dell’AntoniaAnd that is an interesting—I mean, I’m really enjoying this. But this is actually about something else, or a different person setting. I feel like when you read something like that, if—if you have spent a lot of time in that setting, then you can definitely tell. If it’s not particularly important to the book, it’s not necessarily annoying that maybe somebody got the setting wrong. But sometimes—you know, I was just reading something that I know was written by a writer who does not live in the part of the country that they were writing about, and I suspect never has, because I have lived in that part of the country. And there’s this—this chunk that they wrote about, a particular journey that is common to it, and I don’t—because this is someone I know, I’m not—I’m just not—I’m going vague. But—and as someone who’s experienced that particular journey that is taken within the process of living in this particular place, I’m like, oh, this—clearly this person read about doing this thing on the internet. Like, you can just tell. And it’s painful as someone who’s been there, and it was some of what led me to stop reading the book. But not—not all of it. Not all of it. I could have—I could have tolerated that. And there are plenty of times where you’re reading along and you’re like, okay, I know this person’s not really a vet, but they’ve clearly been in a vet’s office, and this is—it’s fine. Like, it doesn’t matter. I’m happy. It’s working. It’s working for me. So it’s just one element. But it goes on the list, right? If you’re...Jennie NashYeah.KJ Dell’AntoniaSo I feel like that’s something to be super careful about—is when you’re kind of Googling to see what something’s like is—or maybe to play it down, it might have just been that there was a lot about this particular journey. And I was just like, it is not really quite right. Anyway...Jennie NashI had a funny experience when I wrote my novel called The Threadbare Heart, which was so long ago that I can barely even remember what it was about. But there was—there was a fire, and somebody lost a fabric collection in the fire. That—this was important to the story and to this character. I can’t even tell you why that was so, but I do remember I did a lot of research on fabric collecting—why people do it, what they collect, how they store it—because I wanted to get those details right. And the—now I’m, like, wishing I remembered why—why I landed on that for this character. But the book—the book had to do with what you would take in a fire, basically. And I think I needed somebody with something very physical. I think that’s how I got there. But anyway, I had done all this research, and I quite love textiles in—as a concept. I don’t collect them my own self. I’m not a seamstress my own self. But I like them, and so I did a lot of research. And there’s a whole quilt underworld out there of quilters, and I went down that rabbit hole. But the funny thing is that when the book came out, I got all of these requests from sewing places. Will you come on and talk about your fabric collection? Will you come on and talk about your sewing machines and how your grandmother taught you to sew? And I was like, oh, that was made up. My grandmother did not—I didn’t—I don’t know how to sew. I don’t have that sewing machine. But it was—I was so proud, because it was not just one. It was a lot. I got a lot of requests that people thought this was an expertise that I had. And I was like, look at me!KJ Dell’AntoniaI love that! Yeah, you did it. You got far enough into—I think there’s—the trick is to get far enough into something that you know a lot more than makes it into the book. And the...Jennie NashYeah!KJ Dell’AntoniaMistake that was made in the thing that I was reading with was that this was a person who had essentially gone, okay, when you’re in California, you get to, you know, Los Angeles from Santa Barbara by taking the 1 [Highway 1], and you see the following things. And therefore I’m going to write those things. But they didn’t—like if they’d driven it 452 times, they might not have mentioned, you take the 1 [Highway 1]. They might have said, you know that—that part where you—you see that one turn-off, and that, my God, that rest stop has been closed since 1982. Like, they might have said something like that. And so you got deep enough to get into that, and the writer that I’m complaining about did not.Jennie NashSo interesting. So interesting.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, and you don’t see it. You shouldn’t see it. That’s the crazy stuff about this. Like everything else, you don’t—as a reader, as a regular reader who’s not reading from a writer-y point of view—and even when you’re a writer, you should not feel the sausage being made.Jennie NashThat is a great place for us to end. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Hey ho, welcome to the Publishing Nerd Corner, where we dive into the more technical aspects of authorship.Jess here. I love it when Sarina schools me on all things publishing nerdery, so we decided to make it official and create a whole new series. I have a long list of things I want her to explain for us, so stay tuned for more. In the meantime, our first Nerd Corner chat is a timely episode about the Anthropic case specifically and registering your copyright specifically. We’re going to discuss: * The benefits of registering your copyright with the United States Copyright Office. * The possibility of a settlement in the Anthropic lawsuit, and what that could mean for authors.* Why copyright registration will be part of any potential settlement.* How to register your copyright.* Did your publisher fulfill its obligation to register your copyright?For more information about the benefits of copyright registration, see the Copyright Alliance To register your copyright yourself, you’ll need Copyright.gov. You will also want to read the Authors Guild post about, “What Authors Need to Know About the Anthropic Settlement”Hit that “play” button and nerd out with us for fifteen minutes! Transcript below!EPISODE 466 - TRANSCRIPTJess LaheyHey, it's Jess Lahey. If you've been listening to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast for any length of time, you know that, yes, I am a writer, but my true love, my deepest love, is combining writing with speaking. I get to go into schools, into community organizations, into nonprofits, into businesses, and do everything from lunch-and-learns, to community reads, to just teaching about the topics that I'm an expert in. From the topics in The Gift of Failure, engagement, learning, learning in the brain, cognitive development, getting kids motivated, and yes, the topic of over parenting and what that does to kids learning, to topics around The Addiction Inoculation, substance use prevention in kids, and what I've been doing lately that's the most fun for me, frankly, is combining the two topics. It makes the topic of substance use prevention more approachable, less scary when we're talking about it in the context of learning and motivation and self-efficacy and competence and, yes, cognitive development. So if you have any interest in bringing me into your school, to your nonprofit, to your business, I would love to come. You can go to Jessicalahey.com. Look under the menu option “Speaking” and go down to “Speaking Inquiry.” There's also a lot of information on my website about what I do. There's videos there about how I do it. Please feel free to get in touch. And I hope I get to come to your community. If you put in the speaking inquiry that you are a Hashtag AmWriting listener, we can talk about a discount. So that can be one of the bonuses for being a loyal and long-term listener to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast. Hope to hear from you.Multiple SpeakersIs it recording? Now it's recording. Yay! Go ahead. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone. Try to remember what I'm supposed to be doing. All right, let's start over. Awkward pause. I'm going to rustle some papers. Okay. Now, one, two, three.Jess LaheyHey, welcome to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast. I'm Jess Lahey, your host, along with another host today—this is going to be super fun. We are the podcast about writing: short things, long things, poetry, prose, book proposals, querying agents—we're basically the podcast about getting the work done. I am Jess Lahey. I'm the author of The Gift of Failure and The Addiction Inoculation. And you can find my journalism at The New York Times, The Washington Post, and The Atlantic.Sarina BowenAnd I'm Sarina Bowen, the author of many contemporary novels, and also a council member on The Authors Guild. And it is in that spirit that we are bringing you a special episode today, which we're calling part of our Publishing Nerd Corner segment.Jess LaheyOur favorite stuff.Sarina BowenYeah, so publishing nerd stuff. Here we go, and the topic is pretty timely.Jess LaheyAnd juicy.Sarina BowenAnd juicy. We're talking about why authors copyright their work, what it means, and how it ties into everything going on with the Anthropic lawsuit and potential settlement.Jess LaheySo, backing up, could you tell us a little bit about the Anthropic lawsuit, and sort of what it was about, and why everybody's talking about it right now?Sarina BowenOf course. So, Anthropic is an AI LLM, Large Language Model Company, just like OpenAI is the same as ChatGPT. Anthropic are the people who make Claude, but all the AI big companies are being sued right now, including Meta, including Microsoft, or...Jess LaheyGoogle. Google.Sarina BowenYeah, sorry.Jess LaheyNot Microsoft.Sarina BowenAnd also the new one is there's a new lawsuit against Apple. So, basically, everybody who went out and made a big LLM model using stolen, pirated books and articles downloaded from the Internet is being sued variously by different organizations, and it looks like the Anthropic lawsuit might be resolved first.Jess LaheyOkay, so what are they being sued for?Sarina BowenThey're being sued for a couple of things. First is the wholesale piracy of lots of books downloaded off the internet, and second, for feeding all of those books into their models to teach them how to speak and compose.Jess LaheyA while ago, weren't some—I think some—internal memos around the whole Meta thing where, essentially, they acknowledged how much it would cost to purchase legally all of the things they needed to model, do their large LLMs, and they decided, “Wow, that would be a lot of money.”Sarina BowenRight.Jess Lahey“We'll just steal them.”Sarina BowenWe don't want to deal with copyright. Well, specifically, the most interesting internal memos that we've seen have been involved in the Meta case, which we're not really talking about tonight, but yeah, there are some big smoking guns out there. But I wanted to take this opportunity to talk about the practical nature of copyrighting your work, because there's a potential settlement on the table that's taking shape in terms of how authors will be paid some portion of a $1.5 billion settlement from this Anthropic suit, potentially, and whether or not you have a registered copyright on your book is going to matter. So, first of all, in this case, the judge did rule—well, we wanted him to rule—that using these books to train the model was not a fair use situation.Jess LaheyRight. They were trying to say, “No, no, this is just fair use.”Sarina BowenRight.Jess Lahey“We shouldn't have to pay anybody.”Sarina BowenAnd unfortunately, we don't have a ruling in favor of this concept yet, and The Authors Guild cares very much that it's not fair use and will continue to fight for that. But we instead were ruled in this case something that is actually quite powerful and important to the whole conversation, which is that the judge said that Anthropic downloading all of these titles—these millions of stolen books—from a piracy site was, in fact, illegal and that they are going to have to pay. So the ruling was against them. So now this is a class-action suit, and in a class-action suit, all of the parties in the class—you can opt out if you want to, like if you're an author who would rather sue them individually, you can still do that. But it looks like in defining the class of who is eligible to receive a payout; you're going to have to have a registered copyright. Your copyright will have had to have been registered within five years of publication, and also before they downloaded it.Jess LaheySo, to clarify, some of the questions I've seen floating around on the interwebs are about, “Oh, but there was that big list that was published by The Atlantic.” You could go to The Atlantic and just see, and “oh my gosh, I had six titles that were on that list. Does that mean that I'm going to get money for all of those titles?”Sarina BowenOkay, well, that is a great question. And actually, I need to stipulate real quick that I am not a lawyer.Jess LaheyRight.Sarina BowenYou're a lawyer, and almost certainly I'm going to make an error when I'm speaking on this tonight. I have spent a lot of time listening in meetings about these things, so I feel comfortable enough to discuss it with you tonight. But, um, but I'm going to make a mistake. So you need to check everything...Jess LaheyRight.Sarina Bowen…when you make your own legal decisions. So wait, what was the question?Jess LaheySo the question was about that big list at The Atlantic.Sarina BowenOh yeah!Jess LaheyThat was like, what, 5 million titles or so?Sarina BowenWell, that list was taken from a specific piracy site.Jess LaheyRight.Sarina BowenBut it doesn't know which titles the company actually downloaded, so only the company has that list. So, first of all, that database is sort of handy and interesting, but it is not definitive in terms of this list.Jess LaheySo do not count on looking at that list and saying, “Oh, I have six titles there, maybe I'll get a payout for all six titles.”Sarina BowenRight. So, um, but let's—we really need to talk about copyright registration because there's so much misinformation floating around out there. So it's true that if you sit down right now and write something, you already own the copyright for it. So that's powerful—sort of—right? Um, but the point of registering your copyright—and these benefits are right on the Copyright Alliance website. So we're going to link to the copyright website—but, um, one of the primary reasons why people register is because registration is a necessary prerequisite for bringing, for U.S. copyright owners, to bring a copyright infringement suit in federal court. And of course, this is a federal court action, but also because statutory damages and attorneys’ fees can only be sued for if you have a registered copyright. If you just own your copyright without registering it, you can sue for damages. The damages in the copyright suit are pretty hard to prove, or at least quantify. So that is why the statutory part of damages is what is being enacted in this judgment.Jess LaheyBut Sarina, I have a publisher. Didn't my publisher register my copyright for me?Sarina BowenWell, probably. My newer contracts all say the publisher must register them, and as far as I can tell, those newer contracts, the publisher did. So, yay. But I do have an old contract from about 2014 that only says that the publisher may register it. And guess what—they didn't. So, first of all, you need to see—you can go to a different database, which is the U.S. government copyright database—and look yourself up and see if your book is in there. And honestly, if your publisher was supposed to register you, and they didn't, The Authors Guild would really like to hear from you, because they're sort of looking into this. Suddenly, you know, in the last 10 days, there's a bunch of people who are like, “Oh my goodness, hang on, they didn't actually do it.” So that's something to think about, something to look at.Jess LaheyYeah.Sarina BowenMeanwhile, because statutory damages are what is going to be paid by this company, that is why the registration—it's not just to make people mad. It's not just to… it's not a gatekeeping thing. It's a legal issue with the settlement. So if you have not been in the practice of registering your copyrights, it's a pretty darn good idea to do that now. It's a completely online process. The site is quite antiquated and not that much fun to work with, and there are some moments in there when you're like, “I don't understand what's being asked of me.” But it's worth taking the time. It costs, I believe, $65 for a single title. They mail it to you at home, and then you have the certificate forever with your copyright registration number, but it's also kept in that database. You are required to deposit a copy—two copies of… well, a digital copy of your book, or two physical ones, and we usually use digital at this point. But totally worthwhile, and all the people who've been slogging it out on the copyright website up till now are probably feeling pretty good about it.Jess LaheyOkay, so there's been this settlement, and I don't know yet whether or not my book is included in that settlement because Anthropic has not turned over their list yet, but let's say I'm on it. When can I get my sweet, sweet dollars?Sarina BowenWell, right now there is a really important The Authors Guild blog post about what to do, and we will also link to that, and they, in turn, link to—I think it's the lawyer's website with a form, a contact form—saying, yes, you know, please keep me in your thoughts and send me the email so that when the list is really ready, we can find each other.Jess LaheyAnd another plug for why you should be a member of The Authors Guild, if you qualify to be a member of The Authors Guild, is that The Authors Guild made sure that their authors were included in the class action suit.Sarina BowenWell, just that they're going to hand the names.Jess LaheyYes. Exactly.Sarina BowenExcept I actually think that if you have multiple titles, if you have multiple publishers, if you use a pseudonym—there's lots of reasons to go to that lawyer's page and fill it out anyway.Jess LaheyYeah.Sarina BowenSo, I mean, the worst that can happen is that both The Authors Guild and you have turned in your name, and they'll have to sort out some duplicates. But that is not the end of the world. And I went there, and I'm filling it in as well.Jess LaheyThe Authors Guild is a great source of reliable, factual information on what is going on with this suit at the moment.Sarina BowenIt is, and it's not like… I'm very proud of my work on the council, but it's like a couple of meetings a month. But what's really happening is that the people who work at The Authors Guild—it's their job. It's a bunch of lawyers who are very good at copyright law, and they've been working on this, like, you know, without sleeping practically, for like a year and a half. So, you know, all of these suits are what they're focusing on all day long. And they want to make sure that the greatest number of authors receive the compensation that they deserve, and it's basically like their whole entire lives right now.Jess LaheyIt's always cool, actually, as a side note, in the annual meetings—I like to attend the annual meetings virtually—and it's always amazing when they give sort of a download of what's been accomplished by The Authors Guild over the past year. So it amazes me, the advocacy that's going on.Sarina BowenIt's a lot of suing people who aren't working on behalf of authors and against book bans and things like that.Jess LaheyAbsolutely, absolutely. Is there anything else that we need to know that's pressing?Sarina BowenRegister your copyrights, people, let's go.Jess LaheyGo to the show notes. The links will be in the show notes, as Sarina said. Worst case scenario, you go to that lawyer website, law firm website, and you double—you know, you've done it, and so has your publisher. But who cares, whatever, as long as you've done the work. And, in fact, I will, when I write the show notes, be going back and doing the same myself. And you know, this is a moving target. This is not over yet. This is a continuing saga.Sarina BowenRight.Jess LaheyYeah, and it's definitely not like a done deal, like, “Yay, I'm going to be getting a check in the mail next week.”Sarina BowenNo.Jess LaheyThat's not the way...Sarina BowenIt's going to take a long time, but there's going to be more of these suits. So, of course, the best time to register your copyright was five years ago. The second-best time is right now.Jess LaheySo, go do that. You have a to-do list. You have homework. Go do those things. And thank you for explaining that stuff. And thank you also for working with The Authors Guild. Because I know it's a ton of work. Not only is it a ton of work for you, doing the meetings and all that sort of stuff, but it's hard to go online and see on social media so many people misunderstanding either what this case is about, and you do a lot of clarifying, which is very sweet.Sarina BowenOh, thank you. But you know what? It's complicated.Jess LaheyIt is very complicated.Sarina BowenAnd I am not a lawyer, and I put in the time to understand it. But the truth is, it's hard. We're dealing with some really complicated concepts. IP is tricky, and, you know, I learn a little more every year, but it's hard, and if it confuses you, you are forgiven for feeling that way.Jess LaheySo, again, thank you. Go do your copyright thing. Go to the law firm website, go to The Authors Guild website, and just catch up. Catch up on what this is all about. And we will keep you posted in our little nerdy corner here, which I'm really excited about. I have a full page of questions I want to ask Sarina about some of the things that she understands really well about publishing and all of the stuff that goes into it—all these things, especially about independent publishing—that is not a world I'm a part of, but you always seem to have great answers to those questions. So we will be delivering those questions and answers to you in our Nerd Corner. And thank you so much for being with us. And until next week, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.NarratorThe Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Jess here. My guest this week is Jeff Selingo, an author and speaker I’ve admired for a long time. His work on college, college admissions and the transition to work and life in emerging adulthood are essential reads for anyone looking to understand what want and need in higher education and life. His books, There is Life After College, Who Gets In and Why: A Year Inside College Admissions and his forthcoming book, Dream School: Finding the College That’s Right for You are all essential reads for teens and emerging adults as well as parents of teens and emerging adults. I adore all three, but I wanted to talk with Jeff about a few aspects of his writing: how he created a speaking career, finds his topics, and how on earth he gets people to talk about topics that tend to be shrouded in secrecy behind very high walls (such as college admissions). Check out Jeff’s newsletter, Next, and Podcast, Future UKJ here, as you probably know, to tell you that if you're not listening to the Writing the Book episodes Jenny Nash and I have been doing, you should be. Jenny's working on her latest nonfiction, and I'm working on my next novel, and we're both trying to do something bigger and better than anything we've done before.We sit down weekly and dish about everything—from Jenny's proposal and the process of getting an agent to my extremely circular method of creating a story. We are brutally honest and open—even beyond what we are here. Truly, we probably say way too much. And for that reason, Writing the Book is subscriber-only.So I'm here saying: subscribe. That's a whole 'nother episode a week, and always a juicy one—plus all the other good subscriber stuff: the First Pages: BookLab, Jess’s From Author to Authority series, and whatever else we come up with. (It varies enough that it's hard to list it all.) Plus, of course, access whenever we run The Blueprint—which, I don’t know, might be soon.That's all I’ve got. So head to amwritingpodcast.com, get yourself signed up, and come listen to Writing the Book. Then talk to us. Tell us—tell us about your book writing and what's going on. We really want to hear from y’all.Thanks a lot. And Subscribe!Transcript below!EPISODE 465 - TRANSCRIPTKJ Dell'AntoniaHowdy, listeners—KJ here, as you probably know—to tell you that if you're not listening to the Writing the Book episodes Jennie Nash and I have been doing, you should be. Jennie is working on her latest nonfiction, and I'm working on my next novel, and we're both trying to do something bigger and better than anything we've done before. We sit down weekly and dish about everything from Jennie's proposal and the process of getting an agent to my extremely circular method of creating a story. We are brutally honest and open—even beyond what we are here. Truly, we probably say way too much, and for that reason, Writing the Books is subscriber-only. So I'm here saying: subscribe. That's a whole other episode a week, and always a juicy one—plus there's all the other good subscriber stuff: the First Page Booklab, Jess' From Author to Authority series, and whatever else we come up with, which kind of varies enough that it's hard to list out. Plus, of course, access to whenever we run the Blueprint, which—I don't know—it’s going to be soon. That’s all I got. So head to AmWritingpodcast.com, get yourself signed up and come listen to Writing the Book, and then talk to us. Tell us—tell us about your book writing and what’s going on. We really want to—we want to hear from y’all. Thanks a lot, and please subscribe.Multiple SpeakersIs it recording? Now it's recording. Yay! Go ahead. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone. Try to remember what I'm supposed to be doing. All right, let's start over. Awkward pause. I'm going to rustle some papers. Okay. Now, one, two, three.Jess LaheyHey, it's Jess Lahey, and welcome to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast. This is a podcast about writing all the things—short things, long things, poetry, proposals, queries, nonfiction, fiction—all the stuff. In the end, this is the podcast about getting the work done. And in the beginning of this podcast, our goal was to flatten the learning curve for other writers. So I am super excited about who I have today. Oh—quick intro. I'm Jess Lahey. I'm the author of The Gift of Failure and The Addiction Inoculation, and you can find my work at The New York Times, The Atlantic and The Washington Post, as you can find the work of my guest there too. So my guest today is someone that I have looked up to for a long time, and someone I use as sort of a—to bounce things off of and to think about how I do my work and how to do my work better. Jeff Selingo, thank you so much for coming to on the show. Jeff is the author of a couple of books that I'm a huge—In fact, I can look over at my bookshelf right now and see all of his books on getting into college, why college is not the end point. He has a new book coming out that we’re going to be talking about—really; it’s coming out real as soon as this podcast comes out. And I’m just—I’m a huge fan, Jeff. Thank you so, so much for coming on the pod.Jeff SelingoJust the same here—and I'm a huge fan of this podcast as well. It’s on my regular rotation, so...Jess LaheyOh yay.Jeff SelingoI am thrilled, as always, to be here.Jess LaheyIt's—it’s changed over the years, and now that we have four different, you know, co-hosts, there’s sort of different takes on it. We’ve got, like, Sarina—the business side, and Jess—the nonfiction geek side, and KJ—the fiction side, and Jennie—the nuts-and-bolts editor side. So it’s been really fun for us to sort of split off. But what I wanted to talk to you about today are a couple of different things. Your book Who Gets In and Why is—um , on the podcast, we talk about dissecting other people’s work as a way... In fact, I was talking to my daughter about this yesterday. She’s writing a thesis—what she hopes will be one chapter in a book. And I was saying, you know, one of the things you can do is go dissect other books you think are really well constructed—books that are reaching the same, similar audience. And your book, Who Gets In and Why, I think, is essential reading for anyone who's writing interview based, and specifically nonfiction around attempting to get their arms around a process. And a process that—for you—what I’m really interested about in this book is a process that’s usually, you know, guarded and kind of secret. And no one wants to let you in for real on all the moving parts and how the decisions are made, because the college admissions process is—it’s an inexact recipe. It depends on where you are, it depends on the school, but everyone wants the secret. Like, Jeff, just get me the secrets of how to get in. So how do you approach people who are, in a sense, some ways, secret-keepers and guardians of the secret sauce—to mix metaphors? How do you get those people to agree to be a part of a book—not just to be interviewed, but to actually put themselves out there and to put the sausage-making out there in a book, which can be a huge leap of faith for any organization or human being?Jeff SelingoYeah, and I think it's definitely harder now than it was when I did Who Gets In and Why. I think it's harder than when, you know, other people have been inside the process—whether it's, you know, Fast Food Nation, with the, you know, the fast food industry, which is a book that I looked up to when I was writing, Who Gets In and Why. I think it’s—people just don’t trust writers and journalists as much as they used to. So I think that’s—a lot of this is really trust. First of all, you have to approach organizations that trust their own process. When people ask me, “Why these three schools?” You know, I approached 24 schools when I wrote, Who Gets In and Why, and three said yes. Twenty-one said no. And when I describe the people who said yes and why they said yes, they trusted their own process. And they also trusted me. But the first thing they did was trust their own process.. And so when I heard later on from people who had said no to me—and I would, you know, talk to them, you know, off the record about why they said no—there was always something about their process, their admissions process, that they didn’t trust. They were getting a new, like, software system, or they had new employees that they didn’t really quite know, or they were doing things—it’s not that they were doing things wrong, but that, you know, it was at the time when the Supreme Court was making a decision about affirmative action, and they didn’t quite know how that would play, and so they didn’t quite trust it—and then how that, obviously, would be used by me. So the first thing you have to do is think about organizations that really believe in themselves, because they’re going to be the ones that are going to talk about themselves externally. And then you just have to build trust between them and you. And that just takes—unfortunately, it takes time. And as a book author or a reporter, you don’t always have that on your side.Jess LaheySo when—were some of these cold? Like of the 24, were all of these cold? Were some of these colder? Did you have an in with some of these?Jeff SelingoI had an in with most of them, because I had been covering—I mean, that’s the other thing. You know, trust is built over time, and I had been covering higher ed for almost 25 years now. So it was just that they knew me, they knew of me, they knew of my work. I had other people vouch for me. So, you know, I had worked with other people in other admissions offices on other stories, and they knew people in some of these offices, so they would vouch for me. But at the end—so, you know, it ended up being Emory, Davidson and the University of Washington. It was really only Davidson where I knew somebody. Emory and University of Washington—I kind of knew people there that were the initial door opener. But beyond that, it was just spending time with them and helping them understand why I wanted to tell the story, how I thought the story would put play out, and getting them to just trust the process.Jess LaheyThere's also something to be said for people who have some enthusiasm for the greater story to be told—especially people who have an agenda, whether that’s opening up admissions to the, quote, “whole student” as opposed to just their test scores, or someone who feels like they really have something to add to the story. Both of the people who I featured in The Addiction Inoculation and who insisted on having their real names used said, you know, there’s just—there’s a value for me in putting this story out there and finding worth in it, even though for these two people, there was some risk and there was embarrassment, and there’s, you know, this shame around substance use disorder. But these two people said, you know, I just think there’s a bigger story to be told, and I’m really proud to be a part of that bigger story. So there is a selling aspect also to, you know, how you position what it is you're doing.Jeff SelingoAnd there’s—so there’s a little bit of that, and that was certainly true here. The admissions deans at these places were longtime leaders who not only trusted their own process but understood that the industry was getting battered. You know, people were not trusting of admissions. They felt like it was a game to be played. And there was definitely a larger story that they wanted to tell there. Now truth be told—and they've told this in conferences that I've been at and on panels that I've moderated with them—there was also a little bit of they wanted to get their own story out, meaning the institutional story, right? Emory is competing against Vanderbilt, and Davidson is a liberal arts college in the South, when most liberal arts colleges are in the Northeast. So there was a little bit of, hey, if we participate in this, people are going to get to know us in a different way, and that is going to help us at the end—meaning the institution.Jess LaheyDo you have to? Did you? Was there a hurdle of, we really have, you know, this is some PR for us, too. So did that affect—I mean, there’s a little bit of a Heisenberg thing going on here. Did the fact that you were observing them change, you think, anything about what they did and what they showed you?Jeff SelingoIt's an interesting thing, Jess. It’s a great question, because I often get that. Because I was—you know, originally, I wanted to do one office. I wanted to be inside one institution. And when all three of them kind of came back and said, yes, we’ll do this—instead of just choosing one of them—I thought, oh, this is interesting. We have a small liberal arts college. We have a big, private urban research university. We have a big public university in the University of Washington. So I wanted to show—kind of compare and contrast—their processes. But that also meant I couldn’t be in one place all the time. There’s only one of me, and there’s three of them, and they’re in different parts of the country. So clearly I was not there every day during the process. And somebody would say to me, oh, well, how do you know they’re not going to do X, Y, and Z when you’re not there? And I quickly realized that they had so much work to do in such a short amount of time that they couldn’t really—they couldn’t really game the system for me. After a while, I just became like a painting on the wall. I just was there. And in many cases, they didn’t even notice I was there—which, by the way, is where you want to be—because they would say things, do things, without realizing sometimes that a reporter was present. And there’s the opening scene of the book, which is just a fantastic—in my opinion, one of my favorite scenes in the book—right where they’re talking about these students and so forth, and in a way that is so raw and so natural about how they did their work. If they knew I was in the room at that point—which of course they did—but if they really perceived my being there, that would have been really hard to pull off.Jess LaheyDid they have, did you guys have an agreement about off the record moments or anything like that? Or was there and speaking of which, actually, was there any kind of contract going into this, or any kind of agreement going into this?Jeff SelingoI basically told them that there would be no surprises. So everything was essentially on the record unless they explicitly said that, and that was usually during interviews, like one-on-one interviews. But while I was in the room with them, there was really nothing off the record. There couldn't be because it was hard to kind of stop what they were doing to do that. The only thing I promised was that there would be no surprises at the end. So when the book was done, during the fact-checking process, I would do what The New Yorker would do during fact-checking. I wouldn’t read the passages back to them, but I would tell them basically what’s in there, in terms of it as I fact-checked it. And so they really kind of knew, for the most part—not word for word—but they kind of knew what was in the book before it came out.Jess LaheyI like that term—no surprises. It’s a real nice blanket statement for, look, I’m not looking to get—there’s no gotcha thing here.Jeff SelingoThere’s no gotcha, exactly...Jess LaheyRight. Exactly.Jeff SelingoThis was not an investigative piece. But there were things that, you know, I’m sure that they would have preferred not to be in there. But for the most part, during the fact-checking process, you know, I learned things that were helpful. You know, sometimes they would say, oh, that’s an interesting way of—you know, I would redirect quotes, and they would want to change them. And I said, well, I don’t really want to change direct quotes, because that’s what was said in that moment. And then they would provide context for things, which was sometimes helpful. I would add that to the piece, or I would add that to the book. So at the end of the day—again—it goes back to trust. And they realized what I was trying to do with this book. It’s also a book rather than an article. Books tend to have permanence. And I knew that this book would have, you know, shelf life. And as a result, I wanted to make sure that it would stand the test of time.Jess LaheyYeah, I've been thinking a lot about your new book—your book that's just coming out as this is getting out into the world—called Dream School. And by the way, such a great title, because one person’s dream school is not another’s. But like, my daughter happens to be at, I think, the perfect school for her, and my son went to the perfect school for him—which, by the way, wasn’t even his first choice. And in retrospect, he said, I’m just so glad I didn’t get into that other place—my, you know, early decision place—because this other place really was the perfect match. And I think that’s why I love that title so much, because I spend a lot of time trying to help parents understand that their dream may not necessarily be their child’s dream. And what makes something a dream school may, you know—in fact, in terms of time—my daughter was applying to colleges just coming out of COVID. Like, she had never been to a school dance. She’d never—you know—all that kind of stuff. So for me, the dream looked very different than maybe it would have four years prior, thinking I was going to have a kid that had the opportunity to sort of socially, you know, integrate into the world in a very different way. So I love that. And is that something that—how did—how do your ideas emerge? Did it emerge in the form of that idea of what is a dream school for someone? Or—anyway, I’ll let you get back to...Jeff SelingoYeah. So, like many follow-up books, this book emerged from discussing Who Gets In and Why. So I was out on the road talking about Who Gets In and Why. And I would have a number of parents—like, you know when you give talks, people come up to you afterwards—and they say, okay, we love this book, but—there's always a but. And people would come up to me about Who Gets In and Why, and they would be like, love the book, but it focused more on selective colleges and universities. What if we don’t get into one of those places? What if we can’t afford one of those places? What if we don’t really want to play that game, and we want permission? And this—this idea of a permission structure came up very early on in the reporting for this book. We need to be able to tell our friends, our family, that it’s okay, right? You know how it is, right? A lot of this is about parents wanting to say that their kid goes to Harvard. It’s less about going to Harvard, but they could tell their friends that their kid goes to Harvard. So they wanted me to help them create this permission structure to be able to look more widely at schools.Jess LaheyI like that.Jeff SelingoSo that's how this came about, and then the idea of Dream School—and I’m fascinated by your reaction to that title. Because the reaction I've been getting from some people is—you know—because the idea, too many people, the idea of a dream school, is a single entity.Jess LaheyOf course.Jeff SelingoIt’s a single school; it’s a single type of school. And what—really, it’s a play on that term that we talk about, a dream school. In many ways, the dream school is your dream, and what you want, and the best fit for you. And I want to give you the tools in this book to try to figure out what is the best match for you that fulfills your dreams. It’s kind of a little play on that—a little tweak on how we think about the dream and dream school. And that’s really what I’m hoping to do for this book—is that, in some ways, it’s a follow-up. So you read Who Gets In and Why, you decide, okay, maybe I do want to try for those highly selected places. But as I tell the story early on in in Dream School. A. It’s almost impossible to get into most of those places today—even more so than five or six years ago. And second, many of the students that I met—young adults that I met in reporting Dream School—ended up at, you know, fill-in-the-blank: most popular school, brand-name school, highly selective school, elite school—whatever you want to put in that blank—and it wasn’t quite what they expected. And so that’s another story that I want to tell families in this book—is that, hey, there’s a wider world out there, and there is success to be had at many of these places.Jess LaheyThere's something I say occasionally, that I have to take the temperature of the room, just because I—you know, you and I speak at some fairly similar places, like, you know, the hoity-toity private schools that—you know, everyone's just go, go, go, do, do, do, achieve, achieve, achieve. And every once in a while, I like to insert—I like to, number one, tell them that my college was, I think, perfect for me. I went to my safety school. I went to the University of Massachusetts and had an extraordinary experience. But I'm a very certain kind of person, and maybe for another—like, for example, my daughter, when we were looking at schools, our state school was just too big for her. It just—she was going to get lost. It wasn't going to work very well. But the thing I like to say when I can, when I feel like the audience is ready to hear it is: What if it’s a massive relief if you don’t have an Ivy kid? If you have a kid who’s not going to get into an Ivy school, isn’t it a relief to say that’s not what we’re aiming for here, and we can actually find a place that’s a great fit for my kid? And that sometimes goes over really well. For a few people, they’ll come up and thank me for that sort of reframing afterwards. But for some people, that is just not at all what they want to hear.Jeff SelingoAnd it's—you know, it's really hard. And I think you go back to audience, and—you know—most people make money on books kind of after the fact, right? The speaking, as you mentioned, and things like that. And it's interesting—this book, as I talk to counselors about it, high school counselors—oh, they're like, this is perfect. This is the message I've been trying to get through to parents. Then I talk to the parents—like, I'm not quite sure this message will work in our community, because this community is very focused on getting into the Ivy League and the Ivy Plus schools?Jess LaheyYes, but that’s why your title is so brilliant. Because if you're getting—and I talk a lot about this, I don’t know if you’ve heard, I’ve talked about this on the podcast—that with the substance use prevention stuff, it’s hard for me to get people to come in. So I use The Gift of Failure to do that, right? So you've got this title that can get the people in the seats, and then you, in your persuasive and charismatic way, can explain to them why this is a term that may—could—use some expanding. I think that's an incredible opportunity.Jeff SelingoAnd it's important, too—early on, my editor told me, “Jeff, don’t forget, we’re an aspirational society.” And I said—I told, I said, “Rick,” I said, “I’m not telling people not to apply in the Ivy League. I’m not saying they’re terrible schools. I’m not saying don’t look at those places.” All I'm saying is, we want to expand our field a little bit to look more broadly, more widely. So we're not saying don't do this—we’re saying, do “do” this. And that's what I'm hoping that this book does.Jess LaheyWell, and the reality is, people listen to the title. They don’t read the subtitle, because subtitles are long, and they have a great use—but not when you’re actually talking about a book with someone. And so what they’re going to hear is Dream School, and I think that's a fantastic way to position the book. But since you opened up the topic, I also—I am right now mentoring someone who is attempting to sell a book while also planning for a speaking career, which, as you know, is something that I did concurrently. How did you—did you know you wanted to do speaking when you were first writing your books? Or is this something that sort of came out of the books themselves?Jeff SelingoIt just came out of the books. You know, the first book, which was College (Un)bound, which was 2012, sold better than I expected, but it was aimed at a consumer audience. But who ended up reading that were college leaders, presidents and people work at colleges. So I had a very busy schedule speaking to people inside the industry. Then I turned my—you know, the second book, There Is Life After College— really turned it to this parenting audience, which was a very new audience to me, and that really led to me to, you know, Who Gets In and Why, and now this book. The difference—and I’m always curious to talk to parenting authors like you—is that college, you know, people—even the most aspirational people in life, I understand, you know, people in certain cities think about preschool, what preschool their kid’s going to get into to get into the right college—but in reality, they’re going to read a college book when their kids are in high school. And that is the more challenging piece around, you know, I—unlike most parenting authors who have a wider audience, because a lot of the issues that face parents face parents when they have toddlers, when they have pre-teens, when they have teens. Obviously, some parenting authors just focus on teens, I get that.But this book really has kind of a short life in terms of the audience. And so what we’re trying to do—so think about it: Who Gets In and Why— it's still in hardcover. Has never been published in paperback, largely because there's a new audience for it every year, which is fantastic...Jess LaheyYeah, I was going to mention that. That is the massive upside. And for me, it's usually a four-year sort of turnover in terms of speaking anyway.Jeff SelingoYeah, you’re right. And so the nice thing on the speaking front is that I have almost a new audience every year, so I could continue to go back to the same schools...Jess LaheyRight.Jeff Selingo...every year, which has been really helpful—with a slightly different message, because the industry is also changing, and admissions is changing as a result. So, no, I—the speaking came afterwards, and now I realize that that's really kind of how you make this thing work. I couldn’t really have a writing career without the speaking piece.Jess LaheySince figuring that out—and I guess assuming that you enjoy doing it, as I hope you do—is that something that you’re continuing to market on your own?Jeff SelingoYes. So that’s what we’re doing. You know, one of the big changes from the last book is that we have developed a—you know, we built a customer relationship management system under our newsletter. So we use HubSpot, which is, you know, like Salesforce. It's something like that And so we’ve now built a community that is much stronger than the one that I had five years ago. That’s a community of parents, of counselors, of independent counselors. So we just know so much more about who we serve, who our readers are, and who will ask me to come speak to their groups and things like that. So that, to me, has been the biggest change since the last book compared to this book. And it has enabled us—and it’s something that I would highly encourage authors to do. I don’t think they have to go out and buy one of these big, robust systems, but the more you know about your readers and build that community, the more that they’re going to respond to you. They really want to be with you in some way. They want to read your books. They want to come to your webinars. They want to listen to your podcasts. They want to see you speak. They want to invite you to speak. And building that community is incredibly important to having that career, you know, after the book comes out.Jess LaheyIt's also for marketing purposes. So Sarina Bowen—again, brilliant at this. he way she does that is, she slices and dices her mailing list into all kinds of, like, where the reader came from—is this someone who's, you know, more interested in this, did I—did I meet them at this conference, you know, how did I acquire this name for my list? And she does a lot of marketing very specifically to those specific lists, and that information is amazing. And I think so many of us tend to think just—and I have to admit that this is where I spend most of my time—is just getting more emails in your newsletter. Owning, you know, the right—because it’s an honor of being able to reach out to those people and have them be interested in what you have to say. But that’s your—I may have to have you come back to talk specifically about that, because it’s increasingly—as we’re doing more of the marketing for our books—I think that’s the future for people who want to keep things going.Jeff SelingoAnd that's—you know, that is the reality today. That's why proposals sell. Because people—you know, publishers really want people with platforms. And if you're not a superstar, there are very few of those out there, you need to figure out another way to build that platform. And so marketing yourself is critically important, and I've learned that from book one. You know, people would say, “Well, you're always just selling your book.” And I said, “Well, if I don't sell it, no one else,” right? So at some point, the publisher—you know, there's only so much the publisher is going to do. And they don't really have the tools that you do. And more than that, Jess, like, you understand your audience. Sarina understands her audience, right? Like, we understand our audiences in ways that publishers, who are doing, you know, dozens and dozens of books a year, just don't get.Jess LaheyRight. No, absolutely.Jeff SelingoLike, no offense against them. I think they're doing really good work. But it's just—it’s hard for them, I think, to really understand, well, who's going to really read this book?Jess LaheyAnd I love the idea of using the questions you get. As you know, I tend to take the questions that I get and turn them into videos or—and I do answer all the emails—but I keep a spreadsheet of what those questions are so that I can slice and dice it in various ways. And they’re fascinating. And that shapes like, oh wow, I had no idea so many people—like, I had no idea that so many kids were actually interested in knowing whether or not the caffeine—amounts of caffeine that they're drinking—are healthy, or how to get better sleep. Because if you ask their parents, they’re like, “Oh no, they don’t care about sleep,” or, “They just drink so much coffee and they don’t care.” And yet what you hear from the kids is such a different story. And the thing that I also love is the idea of, you know, what that dream school concept means to the actual kid applying. You’ve probably heard this before, but I needed some symbolic way to let my kids know that this was not, in the end, my decision, and how important this decision was for them in terms of becoming adults. And so I said, the one thing I will never do is put a sticker for a school on the back of my car. Because your choice of where to become a young, emerging adult is not—I don't—that's not my currency to brag on as a parent. It's too important for that. And so people go nuts over that. They're like, “But that’s what I really want—is that sticker on the back of the car!” And so I have to be careful when I talk about it, but for my kids, that was my one symbolic act to say, this is about your growth and development, and not my bragging rights. And I think that’s a hard message.Jeff SelingoI think that's really important—especially, I have two teens at home. And I think this is a whole topic for another conversation around, you know, most parenting authors are also parents at the same time that they're doing this—advice out to everybody else. And I—I’m very aware of that. I'm also very aware of the privacy that they deserve. And so that’s an—it’s a fine line. It’s a hard line to walk, I will say, for authors, because people—they want to know about you. And they ask you a lot of questions—like, especially around college—like, “Well, where are your kids applying? Where are they going to go?” Like, “Oh, I bet you—especially this book, where I’m encouraging parents to think more broadly—well, you're probably giving that advice to everybody else, but you're not going to follow that, surely, right?” So it's—you just have to—it’s hard when you’re in this world that you're also part of every day.Jess LaheyIt’s really tough. And things have gotten a lot more complicated—as listeners know, I have a trans kid, and that means that everything that I’ve ever written about that kid is out there. Some of it changeable, a lot of it—most of it—not. And would I do it again? I don't—I don't think so. And that—you know, that’s been a journey. But it’s also been—you know, we can’t know what we don’t know. I don't know—it’s a tough one. But I really admire your—that’s why I throw my safety school thing out there all the time. I'm like, “Look, you know, I went to the place that saved my parents a boatload of money and allowed me to do stuff like traveling that I never would have had the ability to do if I hadn't gone to my state school. And my priorities were big, and adventures, and lots of options.” And I’m very, very clear that standing up for myself was something that I wanted to learn how to do more. On the other hand, that’s not been the priority for both of my kids, so... Can I just—I want to ask one quick college question, just because it’s—in reading all of your books, this comes up for me over and over again. How do you help parents see the difference between their dream and their kid’s dream—or their goals and their kid’s goals? And how do you dance that line, which I think is a very easy place to lose readers, lose listeners, because they just shut down and they say, “That’s not something I want to mess with. This is too important to me.”Jeff SelingoIt's a fine line. It's a difficult line to walk. At some point I have to realize who’s the you that you're speaking to. And I even say this in the introduction of the new book—it's largely parents. They're the readers. I know that—I hope their kids will read it. Maybe—maybe they will, maybe they won't, and maybe they'll read it as a family. But I'm really speaking to the families, and I want them to understand that college especially is an emotional good. It's something many of us—you’re talking about your undergraduate experience. I'm not going to ask you how long ago that was, but my undergraduate experience...Jess LaheyI'm 55. So it's been a long time ago.Jeff SelingoAnd I'm 52, right? So same here. But we have this—you know, most people, because of the audiences I tend to speak to, they're not first-generation students, right? They're mostly parents. You know, most of the parents in the audience went to college themselves, and for many of them it was a transformative experience, like it was for me.People met their—they met their lifelong friends, they met their partners, they decided what they wanted to do in life. It was— it was this experience we all think it is. And as a result, I think a lot of parents put that then on their kids. “Well, this was a transforming experience for me, so it definitely has to be a transformative experience for you. Oh, and by the way, these are all the mistakes I made in doing that. I want to make sure you don't make any of those.”Jess LaheyAnd, by the way, no pressure, but this is going to be—this is where you're going to meet your best friends, your spouse. It's the best years of your life, so don't sacrifice even a second of it.Jeff SelingoYeah. And then I...Jess LaheyNo pressure.Jeff SelingoNo pressure. And not only that, but it is—it is something we bought a very long time ago. I'm always amazed when—sometimes we go to the Jersey Shore on vacation, and I'll be out on a walk on the beach in the morning, and I'll see people wearing, you know, college shirts, sweatshirts. And, you know, some of these people are old—much older than I am. And I say, “Oh”—you know, we'll start to have a conversation, and I'll say, “Oh, so does your grandkid, you know, go to X school?” Terrible assumption on my part, I know. But they say, “No, that's where I went.” And it's amazing to me—these are people in their 70s and 80s—because I’m the only other person out that early walking—and they love this thing so much that they're still kind of advertising it. But it was so different back then. And that's the thing that I—going back to your question—that's the thing I try to explain to parents. You can guide this. You can put guardrails up. You might have to put guardrails up about money and location and all that other stuff. But college has changed so much that—don’t try to make this your search. You had your chance. You did your search. It worked out. It didn’t work out. You would have done things differently. I think that’s all great advice to give to your kids. But this is their life. This is their staging ground. They have to learn. And again, it's also different. Like, part of what I hope my books do is to try to explain to people—who, you know, kind of dip in and dip out of higher ed just when their kids are applying—that it’s very different than when they applied and went to college.Jess LaheyThe thing I like to mention a lot is that people in admissions read so many applications that they can tell when something is sincere and something is personal and smacks of a kid, as opposed to when something smacks of a parent. That is a very different application. It's a very different essay—which is the thing that I guess I have the most experience with. But—so I am just so incredibly grateful to you for this book. I'm so grateful that there's evidence that people will actually agree to be interviewed, even in thorny situations like college admissions, which—I don't know. I'm still in awe of the fact that you got anyone to say yes. But—and I heavily—I heartily, heartily recommend Dream School to anyone who's listening. I just—I don't even have anyone applying to college, and I think it's just a fascinating topic, because the idea of where we become who we're going to be, and how we prime lots of other stuff that's going to happen later on in our life—I think that's a fascinating topic. So thank you so much for writing about it. Thank you for writing about it with such empathy and such interest. That's the other thing—is you can tell when someone really is interested in a topic when you read their book. And thank you for providing a book that I recommend all the time as a blueprint—as a dissection book—for people writing nonfiction, heavily interviewed nonfiction. So thank you, so, so much. Where can people find you if they want you to come speak, if they want you—if they want to find your books—where can people find you?Jeff SelingoPretty simple. Jeffselingo.com is my website, and you can also follow me on most social—handle is @jeffselingo, as in Jeff. And I just love hearing from readers. As you know, books change lives, and I love hearing the stories when readers tell me they read something in a book and they acted on it. It's just the most beautiful thing.Jess LaheyYeah, it's the best. I get videos occasionally; too, of like little kids doing things their parents didn’t think they could do. And—“Look! Look! They did this thing!” It's just—it's an amazing and place of privilege. You have a newsletter also…Jeff SelingoI do. Called Next. It comes out twice a month.Jess LaheyIt's Fantastic!Jeff SelingoOh, well, thank you. And I have a podcast also called Future U— that’s more around the kind of the insider-y nature of higher ed and how it works. But a lot—I know a lot of families listen to it to try to understand this black box that is college. So that's called Future U as in U for university.Jess LaheyThe reason I love the podcast so much is, a lot of what parents get exposed to when they're doing the college admissions process are those graphs—scatter graphs of like, where do your numbers intersect with the expectations of this school—and it's a real human version of that. It's a human version of how that black box operates.Jeff SelingoAnd at the end of the day, as I always remind parents, it's a business. You might have this emotional tie to college, but if you don't—if you don't—and you know a mutual friend of ours, Ron Lieber, who writes for The New York Times around...Jess LaheyHe's the best! The best!Jeff SelingoCollege finances, right? He always reminds people of this too. I don't remind them as often as he does, and I probably should. It’s this—you’re buying a consumer product. And you have to act as a consumer. Yes, you can have an emotional tie and a love for this place, but this is a big purchase, and you have to approach it like that.Jess LaheyDid you see his most recent piece about, yeah, taking some time and seeing—seeing what kind of offers you can get? I loved it. I love Ron’s approach to—he’s just a great guy. And his books are fantastic. Thank you again, so much. I'm going to let you get on with your day, but I'm always grateful for you. And good luck with the launch of Dream School.I will be out applauding on pub day for you.Jeff SelingoAppreciate it. Thank you, Jess.Jess LaheyAll right, everyone—until next week, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.NarratorThe Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output—because everyone deserves to be paid for their work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Guests:* Rossana D’Antonio – Author of 26 Seconds: Grief and Blame in the Aftermath of Losing My Brother in a Plane Crash* Marty Ross-Dolen – Author of Always There, Always Gone: A Daughter’s Search for TruthTwo authors, Rossana D’Antonio and Marty Ross-Dolen, each faced the unimaginable loss of loved ones in separate plane crashes decades apart. Their grief led them to write powerful memoirs—Rossana’s 26 Seconds and Marty’s Always There, Always Gone—that explore truth, healing, and the lasting impact of tragedy. In an extraordinary coincidence, both books were released in the same week, a situation that could easily spark feelings of rivalry or jealousy between writers. Instead, their shared experience created a bond as they connected over loss, resilience, and the courage it takes to turn pain into story. This episode dives into that connection, exploring not only grief but also the unexpected solidarity found in telling similar stories side by side.Hey everyone, it's Jenny Nash. This episode happens to feature an Author Accelerator book coach. Author Accelerator is the company I founded more than 10 years ago to lead the emerging book coaching industry. If you've been curious about what it takes to become a successful book coach, which is to say, someone who makes money, meaning, and joy out of serving writers, I've just created a bunch of great content to help you learn more. You can access it all by going to bookcoaches.com/waitlist. We'll be enrolling a new cohort of students in our certification program in October, so now's a perfect time to learn more and start making plans for a whole new career.Transcript below!EPISODE 464 - TRANSCRIPTJennie NashHey everyone. It's Jennie Nash. This episode happens to feature an Author Accelerator book coach. Author Accelerator is the company I founded more than 10 years ago to lead the emerging book coaching industry. If you've been curious about what it takes to become a successful book coach, which is to say someone who makes money, meaning and joy out of serving writers. I've just created a bunch of great content to help you learn more. You can access it all by going to book bookcoaches.com/waitlist. That's bookcoaches.com/waitlist. We'll be enrolling a new cohort of students in our certification program in October, so now’s a perfect time to learn more and start making plans for a whole new career.Multiple SpeakersIs it recording? Now it's recording, yay. Go ahead. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone. I don't remember what I'm supposed to be doing. All right, let's start over. Awkward pause. I'm going to rustle some papers. Okay, now—one, two, three.Jennie NashHey everyone. I'm Jennie Nash, and this is the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast, the place where we talk about writing all the things, short things, long things, fiction, nonfiction, pitches and proposals. Today I'm here to talk with two writers who I brought together because of a very interesting coincidence; each of these writers recently published a memoir about a plane crash. They each lost somebody that they love in a plane crash, and they wrote a story about their search for understanding and their search for healing and what it all means to their lives. These two books are really different stories, which I think is so interesting and says so much about the creative process. And what's remarkable is that these two books were published just one week apart, and these two writers became aware of each other's books and became friends. I happened to have a connection to each of these writers. At several points throughout her writing process, I coached Rossana D’Antonio including the very first time she came into a classroom to write about this story. Her book is called 26 Seconds: Grief and Blame in the Aftermath of Losing My Brother in a Plane Crash. Marty Ross-Dolen is the other author. Her book is called Always There, Always Gone: A Daughter's Search for Truth. Marty is a writer who came into my Author Accelerator book coach certification program to study how to become a book coach, and that's when I became aware of her and her story. In this conversation, Marty and Rossana come together with me to talk about grief, writing, jealousy and so many of the things that make memoir such a difficult and challenging genre to write and also such a satisfying one. I can't wait for you to listen. So let's get started. Welcome Rossana and Marty. I'm so excited to have you both here today to talk about this incredible topic. And before we get going, we are talking just days after there was a terrible plane crash in India in which a lot of people died and one man walked away, and there's a plane crash at the center of both of your books. And I just wanted to start by asking, how do you feel when this happens as it happens so many times, you know, are you okay as we sit here today? Or does this weigh on you? What is it? What is it like to sit here today? So maybe we'll start Rossana with you.Rossana D’AntonioOkay, well, thanks, Jennie, for inviting me on your podcast. It's really exciting to be here and to share, you know, this podcast with Marty. And, yeah, I mean, I, I agree with you. It's really, I mean, I think our memoirs—it's just so timely that they're out during this time because it's, you know, it's not just Air India. We've had several incidents within the last several years, actually, that have brought to light the strain in the aviation industry. It's been, it's been really interesting because, as it seems like there's not a day that goes by that there isn't something in the news with regards to plane crashes or plane incidents, near misses, whatever it may be. But as we experience each incident, and it becomes breaking news, and you know, we're witnessing it on live TV, it is, it is hard not to relive the experience. And I'm—I'll speak for myself—it is hard for me not to relive the experience. And in the book, I kind of talk about it because I say that it's kind of like we belong to this group that we never asked to be part of and this group is made of families of the victims of plane crashes. And, you know, the very first images that you see are of the grieving families and the pain and the grief that is stamped on their faces, the shock of it all. Plane crashes are so dramatic and so violent that it's hard not to get caught up in the whole story, and it's hard not to think of the families and want to comfort them, knowing that their hell is just starting, and all the things that they're going to have to go through, you know, with regards to the aftermath, the investigation, recovering their loved ones and their loved ones' belongings. So it is hard, but I try to, I try to focus on hoping that their recovery or their healing—the sooner they face the disaster, the tragedy—their healing can actually start.Jennie NashIt's got to be so hard. We'll, we'll return to all of these topics again. But Marty, you’re... what are your thoughts?Marty Ross-DolenI echo what Rossana says about how—first, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here with you. I echo, and I love being here with Rossana, and I echo what she says as well. When I see some sort of headline or announcement that an airplane accident has taken place, my heart sinks. My stomach sinks. I know that I'm going to be in it for a couple of days, if not longer, and nowadays, with social media and the immediacy of information—and for the first time, with this devastating Air India crash, and part of it is because there was a survivor—we have information that we've never had before about the experience of it, and somehow, what came across my news feed on social media as well were videos of the inside of the cabin just before the crash. I don't even know how these were available. I don't even know if they're real because of AI—it's... but then I see that because I can't not see it, and I'm stuck with that in my brain until it goes into that little pocket that contains all those things that we see over our lifetimes that we try never to think about again. So it's hard, it's really hard, and it's really hard to get on an airplane. But that's true for everyone. That's true for everyone, but because, as Rossana describes, we're members of this group, this club that we didn't sign on for, it's probably extra hard.Jennie NashYeah, I want to come back to that "get on an airplane" thing, but just so our listeners can know about the stories that I'm referring to here, we know that you both wrote books, and they're both memoirs, and they're very, very different experiences for the reader—vibes, purposes, feelings, all of those things—and yet they share this plane crash at the center. So I wanted to ask if you would each just give a summary of what your book is about—the title, what it's about—so our readers can know, our listeners can know, what we're talking about. Your readers, our listeners. Rossana, we're kind of in a pattern here, so why don't you go first?Rossana D’AntonioSure. Thanks, Jennie. So my story, my book, is 26 Seconds: Grief and Blame in the Aftermath of Losing My Brother in a Plane Crash. And it's the story of—well, the title says it all, right? So on May 30, 2008, TACA Flight 390 departed from El Salvador International Airport en route to Miami, Florida, with an interim stop in Honduras at one of the most notoriously dangerous airports in the world, Toncontín International Airport. The area was buffeted by Tropical Storm Alma at the time. So there was a lot of wind, a lot of rain, a lot of fog, and when TACA Flight 390 attempted to land on the airport's very short runway, it overshot the runway, crashed into an embankment, and killed five people—three in the plane, including my brother, the pilot, and two in a car that were crushed when the plane landed on them. The book is my search for the truth as to what truly happened on that day. I suspected my brother would be made a scapegoat. Seventy percent of airplane accidents are blamed on the pilot, and so I just suspected that that would be our reality. And so this book is the story about me finding answers to the questions as to what happened that day..Jennie NashAnd in terms of the timeline of this story, when I first met you, you had just begun to write about it. I think it was 10 years. Oh, no, I've got that wrong. How long after the event? You came into a class of mine at UCLA—it was really close to the event.Rossana D’AntonioYeah. So it was February of 2009, so it was a little over six months. So it was still very, very raw.Jennie NashI know the 10 years part is you came back to me 10 years later, having finally wrapped your hands around how you wanted to approach it. So the story as you write it is 10–15 years after the event, looking back on it and all the work that you did to understand this crash and you are uniquely positioned. And I remember thinking about this way back when I first met you. You have a very unique perspective on disaster, and you have a very unique positioning or perspective from which to look at that. Do you want to explain what that is?Rossana D’AntonioSure. So I'm an engineer. I'm a civil engineer, and I worked for over three decades in the public sector at Los Angeles County Public Works. I was over—as I left county service, I was a deputy director over our emergency management business area, and so I was trained to respond to all sorts of different disasters. Our agency managed several pieces of infrastructure, including five different airports. So I was trained to not only plan, design, construct infrastructure, but also to respond to emergencies following not only natural disasters but, you know, human-made disasters. And following these disasters, I was the lead for preparing after-action reports, which essentially describe what happened, what went wrong, what went well, and what lessons learned can we actually take away from these disasters. So that was my background.Jennie NashYeah, it's an incredible connection to this tragic event. So we'll come back to that in a minute. So Marty, tell us about your book.Marty Ross-DolenSure. So my book is entitled Always There, Always Gone: A Daughter's Search for Truth. And in 1960, my grandparents were killed in an airplane accident that was a collision over New York Harbor. Their plane—they had left Columbus, Ohio. They were traveling to New York, and they were on a TWA Super Constellation, and then a United jet that had originated in Chicago was flying in. My grandparents’ plane was set for landing in LaGuardia. The United flight was set for landing in Idlewild, which is now JFK Airport. The United plane got off course and collided with my grandparents’ plane. My grandparents’ plane landed in Staten Island in an empty airfield, and the United flight actually continued for a few miles and landed in Park Slope, Brooklyn, killing people on the ground. So on the planes, there were 128 people who lost their lives, and then six people on the ground in Brooklyn. And because of that horrific situation in Brooklyn, that's where most of the sort of media was focused. There was one survivor who survived for about 24 hours—a boy—but he didn't live. My grandparents were on their way from Columbus to New York to meet for a meeting to talk about their family business, their iconic family magazine Highlights for Children, and they were looking to place the magazine on the newsstands. So they were executives with the company, and this accident was actually the largest commercial jet airplane disaster up until that time in 1960, so it was a pretty well-known, famous accident.Jennie NashSo you two have a very unique connection to that accident, and where you stood when you wrote about it is much further in the future from the crash itself, because your mother, if I remember correctly, was 14 years old at the time.Marty Ross-DolenRight. So my mom was 14. It was six years before I was born, so obviously I didn't know my grandparents. My mom was the second oldest of five, and they moved from Columbus, Ohio, to Austin, Texas, to live with a paternal uncle and his family. And so my book is more about my experience of being raised by a mother who was in protracted mourning after having lost her parents and not had a way to process her grief as an adolescent, and as she got older. So my approach to my book is from that angle primarily, in addition to getting to know my grandmother through her letters, which was a significant goal through the writing process.Jennie NashRight. So you have this reverberation through time of this accident and your connection to the work your grandparents did. You're a writer, you're an editor, you're a person who deals with story, and they were—I mean, I was such a reader of Highlights back in the day—and that, you know, you use the word iconic, you know, probably launched the careers of so many writers and thinkers, and you have a connection through time with that, which is a very unique perspective to have on your story. So you each bring these very different ways of looking at this event. So before we kind of dig into the decisions you each made around how to structure your book, and the tone and shape and all of that, part of the reason we're all talking here today is this, what I think of as a very delightful outcome of these books, which is that you know each other. You've met each other after the books were written. And oftentimes we think, when we're writing something, that well, we think several things: nobody's ever written anything like this, and everybody else has already written this story. What do I have to say? You know, those sort of back-and-forth thoughts that writers often have—Is this unique? Do I have something to add? Do I have something to say? How am I going to serve my readers, or what experience am I going to give to my readers? And then, you know just those pinging back-and-forth thoughts. And it's not very often that we get to actually meet a writer who, at the same time, in the same phase here of publishing, you know, just the same year even, has written something that is similar-ish, you know, about a plane crash, but totally different books. But I just want to ask you each about the meeting of each other and the thinking of that book, and what that's like, because it's so unusual to get to have this kind of conversation. So, you know, I imagine there are lots of things going through your head when you heard about this other book or, you know, I don't know if I have a connection to both of you. I don't know if it came from me or what, but why don't we start this time with you, Marty.Marty Ross-DolenYeah, one of the great joys of this last year has been publishing with the same publisher as Rossana, and for us to get to know each other, because we both published our books with She Writes Press, and we just happened to be in the same cohort of summer 2025. We published in the same month, one week apart. Yeah, yeah. And I remember when we first were introducing ourselves as a group, and Rossana mentioned what her story was about. And my reaction was, is it really true? Is there really another airplane accident story amongst us? Because it is—it's not common. I mean, you don't very often come across people who have lost loved ones this way, and what became clear to me over time was that our books were very, very different. And by the nature of the fact that Rossana lost her beloved brother, who she was very close to, and I lost grandparents I had never met, our stories were just—and there's decades that separate these events—so by those natures, it was clear to me that our books were going to be different. I was excited to read Rossana's book. I was also apprehensive because, for the same reason that I described about when I'm reading about it in the news, it's just hard. But I will say, in reading Rossana's beautiful book, I immediately noticed just kindred spirits with her as a writer. It happened early in the chapters that I was reading. I had used the word lullaby to describe the sound of the engines getting going when you're sitting on a plane and it's about to take off, and sort of the sound of almost a lullaby that will put you to sleep. The person who was working with me as I was writing kept crossing that word out: “That doesn't make sense. Why would you call that a lullaby?” And I wanted it in there. It felt so right. And Rossana described that exact time, those sounds, as a lullaby. It was like; this is something that's just unique about people who have experienced what we've experienced.Jennie NashOh, wow, that's so interesting. Rossana, what about you? Your coming upon Marty's book.Rossana D’AntonioI know. What are the odds, right? I mean, I had never met anyone who had ever experienced a plane crash in their family. As a matter of fact, I'm going to get geeky here, but the U.S. Department of Transportation statistics indicate that one in 2 billion people will die in a plane crash. So what are the odds that, you know, life would bring Marty and I together, that had this connection, not only with the plane crash but also with you, Jennie? I mean some that came out later on. And so I thought, wow, you know, talk about serendipity and, you know, the mysterious ways of life. And although, you know, these are very different stories, I mean, they're connected at their core by a common theme, right? Very similar tragedies. And when I read Marty's book, like she says, there was—I was taken aback because there were many similar passages, you know, how we describe things or how we perceive things. There were a lot of commonalities, even though we came from it from different perspectives, which again reinforces my belief that we're part of this group that we never want to be a part of, and we'll always be connected in one way or another. I think one of the things, though, that was obvious when I read her book was that I connected, I understood, I related to her mom, obviously, right? Her mom was one that had experienced this plane crash, so it was kind of obvious the way it had impacted her, the tragedy, the aftermath, the bottling up of her feelings, PTSD, whatever—all of that I, like, clicked. But I think the most fascinating part of Marty's book was how that grief could be transferred from generation to generation. And I thought that was the fascinating thing that I learned that I really didn't know, and how these tragedies can be prolonged for, you know, generations.Jennie NashYeah, it's—well, first of all, thanks for geeking out because that is a good description of what your book is. You have a lot in your book that is kind of geeky in a—you know, you really get into the aviation industry, into the nuts and bolts of, literally, planes and how they function to the way that governments and reports about accidents function. So when reading your book, people get that layer, which is, you know, you bring to that work. So, geek out all you want. It's great. And Marty's book, by contrast, is this exploration of, you know, you drop a pebble in a pond, and how does it hit the shores? And that very emotional—you know, she had a mother immersed in grief. And what does that do to the child? And then the child's impulse to—I think it's the word search in both of your subtitles, I think it might be, or certainly the concept of it—but that idea of a quest or a journey or, you know, a need to understand. And in Rossana's case, it's what happened on that day. In Marty's case, what happened to my mom? You know, like, what was this thing that happened to my mom? And you're both seeking—that core of both of them. So I want to ask about, because I'm fascinated by this—you know, there's a raw material of a story, and how you make your choices about what the tone of that story is going to be, or the shape and structure of that story, what you want the reader to feel or to experience. Can you both go back to when you knew you were going to write about it? I think that's the first thing, is how did you catch this idea as, "This is a thing I'm going to write about"? Marty, do you want to start with that one?Marty Ross-DolenSure. I started writing after I attended a 50th anniversary memorial event for the airplane accident. And there's a sort of story that leads up to that memorial event and my attending it. But prior to that—which was, so that was 2010—prior to that, I wasn't necessarily inclined to write about it. So after attending this memorial event in 2010, a few months later, I just started telling the story of the memorial and putting some backstory into it, and that ended up being an essay that was about... I don't know, it was a long essay, like, say, 40 pages, but I was told the story was done. Because for those of us that like to use writing and words and language to try to process those things that are sitting—that we're obsessing about or sitting in our minds—I wanted to have done that and be done, because this thing was deeper than anything else that I could excavate in terms of pain in my life. So after I submitted this essay to a class that I was taking at Ohio State—writing, creative writing workshop—and at the end of the semester, the professor said to me that he thought that really what I was doing was writing a book, because there was too much material here and I hadn't done what needed to be done. My stomach sank because I didn't want to write a book. It wasn't—I wanted to be done with this topic. So I took his feedback and all of my workshop peers' feedback, and I stuck it all, the pile of papers, into a cabinet, and it stayed there for 14—well, 10—years.Jennie NashWow!Marty Ross-DolenYeah. And then, during that time, my mother had become the archivist for Highlights, for the family business, and was going through all of the saved artifacts and materials and papers related to the company and the family. And I had always wanted to know my grandmother better. My grandmother is the person I'm named for. I had always known a lot of stories about her, but I asked my mom if she had access to any letters that she might come across in the attics and basements that she was excavating—could I have them? So she started sending them to me. So while I had an essay in the cabinet, I had bins of letters from my grandmother in the basement. And that whole time, anybody who would ask me what I was working on, writing-wise, I'd say, "Well, you know I've got these letters in the basement..." but I never did anything with it. I just couldn't—it was too—everything was too overwhelming. And then what happened for me is that COVID—when the pandemic, you know, 2020, started—became part of our lives. I realized that it was an opportunity for me to pursue an MFA that I had wanted to do for a long time because it was going to be remote. And then I realized I've got time, and I could pull all of this out and see if it was something worth tackling. So that's the story of the decision to write. It was a slow one.Jennie NashWow. Oh, so interesting. And Rossana, well, we heard that you, six months after your brother died, you were in this class trying to learn how to write about it, which, at the time, I didn't quite put together that had been so recent. So when did you decide you were going to write about it? How did you know?Rossana D’AntonioYeah, so, I mean, I didn't set out to write a book. I just started to write. And as you know, as an engineer, I wasn't really trained to be like a memoir writer or writing essays of this type of nature. But I have to give you so much credit, because when I went to your class—and I went out of curiosity to see, well, is anything I'm scribbling down in these journals, is anything really good?—and so your class brought me together with all these other students, and, you know, reading some of the material out loud, all of a sudden, it was a four-day—I don't know if you remember—it was a four-day, one of these four-day intensive classes, and at the end, we're reading our material, and all these strangers are suddenly referring to my brother like they know him, and I recognize that it was because I was somehow relaying his story to them, and I was somehow, maybe through my work or my words, keeping him alive in some way, and that was really transformational for me, because I thought, well, maybe I can do this. And you were very kind. You said that the work was actually pretty good, and then I had some teachers that, you know, added to that. So it started out like, you know, just like playing with words, and then it turned into a grief memoir. That's the… you know, it's evolved greatly. It turned into a grief memoir, which you—I went back to you and you said, “Well, this is great, congratulations, but it's really not marketable, and if you really want to get it out into the world, you're going to have to make some changes.” And so at that point, that's when I decided, all right, I'm going to go ahead and explore. I'm going to go deeper and try to explore the truth about what happened that day. Maybe make it more scientific, more technical; maybe bring in some of the elements that were missing from this memoir. And so along with working with you and working with my editor­— Jodi Fodor—both of you, like within the last few years—I thought I had written it, I thought I was fine, I thought it was done. But then I'd come back to all of you, and you would ask me these probing questions. Perhaps I hadn't developed a scene well enough, or maybe I needed to go deeper. You know, memoir is different than what I was trained to do, and that would send me down this rabbit hole in search of answers to, you know, the questions you were asking, which, by the way, was very annoying because obviously I did not want to come to terms with, you know, the questions that you were asking, because it would, like, get me down into the feeling part of the whole memoir writing. But I did the homework, I came back with answers, and then I realized that memoir is a different animal. And I really felt that your input, your feedback, your questions, your probing, really did make it a lot richer of a story. And even through those seeking answers to the questions that you had brought me to self-discoveries, epiphanies, that perhaps… things that I had bottled up, and that even at the tail end of writing the story, there was still so much more to discover with regards to grief and healing, and which was a lesson to me that I suppose this journey never really ends.Jennie NashOh, I want to defend myself when I said, “This is great, but it's not marketable.” There is such a danger with memoir, particularly memoir around big things, and you both are writing about a big thing, and also particularly around grief, where it's so big in your own head, it takes over your whole mind or life or heart or world, that you assume that everybody else gets it. Right? Like this thing happened, and it's tragic, and in Marty's case, it reverberates through my whole life, and it's so easy to skip over the work of making that story mean something to the reader, and of just sort of resting on the fact that this dramatic thing happened in your family and your life. And there are so many manuscripts like that that when they land on the desk of an agent or the hands of a reader, it's not enough, right? It's not enough. And so that was what I was responding to you. And I know because I got to work with you, and I know from Marty, because I see the result of her finished book, you both did that really hard work, and when I say it's really hard, you just named, Rossana, why it's hard. You have to look at yourself in a way… you know you have to dig in there to things you might not really want to think about. You certainly probably don't want to feel. Do you even want to share them? All of those decisions and choices and ideas. That's what's so hard. And you both put yourself through that process. So I want to ask you each about that—what was it like? So Marty, we'll start with you. In your case, you're digging into these letters, you start then digging into the news, the articles, the pictures, the—you know, all this stuff that your mother never spoke about, and here you're digging, digging, digging. What was that like for you on an emotional level?Marty Ross-DolenAh, it took over my life for a period of time. It was very time-consuming and overwhelming, and nothing about it was easy. I spent a lot of time and tears. I had a tough time sleeping. I did a lot of the work of writing in the middle of the night. In my head, I would wake up in the middle of the night reciting something I had written the day before. It had totally taken over my brain, and fortunately, my mother is very supportive of my work and has been very supportive of the book. And while I was reading the letters—and I read them all, and there are hundreds and hundreds of letters and thousands of pages of them—my mom was available to me to have very long conversations each day through it, because I would want to share something that I read with her, check with her about a story, or she would add and fill in some cracks. And she and I spent a lot of time on the phone crying. We also spent a lot of time laughing, because my grandmother was hilarious, which helped the situation. Her letters were a joy to read. But it really—it's a commitment. It's something that anybody who decides that they're going to take on a project that's going to just sort of open up the wound and create a rawness you're not even familiar with until you're there certainly needs to have established the support system. And I also had my husband, who was incredibly willing to talk about—I mean, he's been talking about this with me and listening for, at this point, for years, but certainly all the time back then, during those days. So it's not pretty, it was hard, but there's nothing about it that doesn't feel like the biggest gift I've ever given myself, because as much as I was trying to avoid it for all those years, there was a reason. I had to do it. I had to go through the process. And also, no question, there's a healing component to writing about something like this, and that reflective writing process, when you do the deep work and try to really dig and let yourself—as Rossana was saying—you know, the annoying stuff that was really like not where you wanted to go, but that is what really changed how it helped me heal in terms of grief, but it really also changed the way I thought about the story and imagined the story, and helped me not look at it through quite as much sadness and even anger, as much as I then was able to look through more of a lens of love at all of it. And I would venture to say that Rossana may have felt that too, because I read her book, and her book is all love. So…Jennie NashYeah, so Rossana, what was that experience of writing like for you?Rossana D’AntonioYeah, well, like Marty said, you know, it was, it did become all-consuming. I became obsessed. For me, though, it was the plane crash, right? The plane crash is the common thread throughout the whole book. And I would venture to say that the crash is a character itself. I like to think of it as the crash is the villain that I battle throughout the story. Everything revolves around it, and it was all-consuming. I analyzed it a million different ways. I deconstructed it. I peeled layer after layer, fact upon fact, trying to get to the core of what truly happened, right? And then I put everything back together, reconstructing it to try to make sense of it all in an effort to find out the truth, with a little bit of fear as to what I may actually find, right? There were no guarantees that I would like what I actually discovered. And as a matter of fact, you know, working with my editor—because I got so ingrained in it, because I got so weedy and geeky and just too technical—you know, she would actually slash dozens of pages, and she said, “I'm not even going to read this because this is not memoir appropriate. You need to do better.” And I think it was at that point where I had that conversation with Jody that the crash evolved from a thing to a character that I could eventually conquer. And like Marty said, there is a healing, and at the end, I actually make peace with this experience. You know, not that I'm all healed, but I make peace with it. There's really nothing I could do. My search was for the truth, and I got the truth, and then I was able to let it go and actually continue to live, because it was so consuming that I wasn't really living until I let it go.Marty Ross-DolenCan I ask, Rossana, do you think that all that writing that you did that got slashed out—do you, because I have writing also that had to be removed—do you feel that that had to be written in order to be removed, in order to get on the other side of it?Rossana D’AntonioOh, that's a good question. I never thought of it that way, but yeah, it could be. I mean, it's part of the quest. It wasn't appropriate for the work that I was working on, but it did highlight facts that I needed to know in order to, like you said, let it go.Marty Ross-DolenYeah, I just think that's interesting, because I have material that didn't end up in the book, but I know I couldn't have written the book if I hadn't written that material. It's just… yeah.Jennie NashSo you both talk about having arrived at a place of peace, or you use the word a “gift to yourself,” Marty. It sounds like during the writing of these books it didn't feel like that… it feels like that now. So why did you keep going when it was so hard? Marty, what would you say to that?Marty Ross-DolenI think because even though it was hard, I was sensing that it was necessary. I was sensing the value of it, and I had just decided that I was committed to it, and I wasn't going to give up. I just had a sense that once I found myself on the other side, I would be in a place that would have made it all worth it.Jennie NashWhat about you, Rossana?Rossana D’AntonioWell, I mean, for me, there are two things. I mean, people who know me know that once I say I'm going to do something, I cannot let it go. So that's one. But the whole purpose of going down this journey was I needed to know what happened. So not knowing what happened was just not an option. I mean, that was the outcome that I was looking for, and there was fear and pain that I knew I was going to take on. But in order to get there, I needed to go through it. So it was just something inevitable. I just knew what I was getting myself into. And I—you know—bring it on.Jennie NashYeah. So I want to ask about the shaping of the stories. You know, there are so many different shapes a story can take. And Rossana, we heard how you started with one type of book, moved into another. You cut this and that. And Marty, you had this incredible amount of primary source material. How did you make a decision? I mean, there are so many questions we could ask here, but I'm going to just focus on the plane crash as part of this discussion. How did you decide where in the story the crash would come—let's call it the scene of the crash—because it appears in very different places in your books, and in some ways, that colors the tone or form or experience for the reader of that book. So, Marty, how did you make that decision? Because the crash comes quite late in your book, where we actually see it. And it struck me when I was reading your book that that was exactly right for your story, because your mother never spoke about it. You didn't know about it. It wasn't a thing you were playing over in your head, and so the not feeling the crash or knowing about the crash was part of the story of it, in a way. So how did you make that decision??Marty Ross-DolenI will say that the essay that I wrote in 2010 that I described as the foundational essay for the book was largely what part five of my book is. So in many ways, I had written the end of the book. That was the first thing I wrote. And then figuring out where to put what was really the largest challenge. And I ultimately started to realize that I knew that I was coming to the book with the goal of not having the book be about my grandparents’ death, but having it be about their life, particularly my grandmother's life. And so I wanted to downplay, even though the details of the accident and my discovering it were critical to the story, I wanted to downplay their death, because that's what I was trying to do for myself, because I had grown up my whole life only knowing their death, and that wasn't what I wanted people to know about myself, my mother, or my grandmother. So that was probably the biggest reason that I decided to put it at the end. And then also I put it at the end because I did want to have some buildup. I sensed some value in the reader getting to know the characters well before finding out what actually happened, and I also wanted it to correlate with my own—as you said—my own discovery of the story, which happened later in my life.Jennie NashWell, then there's this—yeah, there's this cool thing that I thought was really cool that happens in your book, which is your grandparents have this magazine, this business, and they make a decision: “Oh, maybe we should see if we could get this in—was it dentist's offices or, you know, doctors' offices waiting rooms?” And then, you know, they're on this plane to try to get it on newsstands. And we know the incredible success that those ideas went on to have in terms of a business. You know, the seeds that they planted bore incredible fruit. And so that part of the story, I thought, was really beautifully handled as well, because we all know what Highlights was and what it became. And then to find out those were their ideas, and then they died. They were not the ones that saw that through. There's something so powerful about that, that their ideas were so strong. They were so prescient. They were, you know, they created this thing that reverberated—there's that word again—through so many people's lives. I thought that was really a beautiful touch to how you placed that plane crash too.Marty Ross-DolenOh, thank you. That's interesting to think of it from that perspective because, in addition to my not wanting the story to be about my grandparents’ deaths solely, it was also not meant to be the story of the history of Highlights. It was meant to be who they were. And, you know, it really is more of a focus on my grandmother in relation to the company, but they saved the company. And there were many times in the 1950s when they were struggling to keep it from bankruptcy and the decision—the sort of… actually, it was an epiphany of a salesperson who came up with the idea of selling through doctors' and dentists' offices. But their decision to implement that happened a couple of years before they died, and that's when they actually started to see the company thrive. So they died when the company was thriving, and they were, just as you said, pursuing more. Because the whole Highlights is a mission-driven company. Our whole goal is to have material that will help children become their best selves. So the more children that it touches, the more successful the mission. And so, yes, I mean, it is part of the story as much as maybe I see it as separate. It's just not separate. But making decisions about how much of one thing, you know, is this book supposed to have? I mean, there were people who wanted me to write the history of Highlights more than I did, for sure. There were people who wanted more airplane accident, for sure. And I wanted more of my grandmother, my mother, and me, so…Jennie NashRight.Marty Ross-DolenYeah, it was a balance.Jennie NashRight. Well, you pulled it off beautifully.Marty Ross-DolenThank you.Jennie NashAnd Rossana, in your book, the plane crash literally starts on page one—or even in the title. How did you…? And I feel like it was maybe always that way. Was it always that way? Was that one thing that never changed?Rossana D’AntonioYeah, I was just going to tell you, the book went through a ton of revisions, but the one thing that remained constant was the opening scene, which was the timeline of the 26 seconds that describe touchdown to impact. And I remember reading that in your class early on, and there was a sense of shock from the reception from the other folks in the class, and I knew that that's how I wanted to start the book. I mean, that's the premise that sets everything in motion. So that was the one constant, and I'm pretty proud of that.Jennie NashYeah. I mean, it's really interesting. So we know from the very beginning what happens. And then you circle back to talk about how you learned of the crash, which is a very dramatic story as well. So how did you hold the tension through the rest of the book? When the reader knows what happened, this is not a mystery, then you have to construct the story in such a way to hold the reader—you know, what else are we going to root for or learn or find out? How did you pull that off? Because you did.Rossana D’AntonioWell, the mystery is, you know, what happened? The mystery—I mean, I talk about how the industry had, continues to have, a tendency to blame one individual, which is the pilot, the last person that touches this very complex system that is the aviation industry. And so I kind of made the industry somewhat of a villain. And this quest for me to seek the truth and hopefully to—you know, I suppose the reader wanted me to be right that the industry was somehow to blame. And so that's how I thread the story, in addition to the fact that, you know, there were facts that kind of reinforced my whole premise, right? I mean, the accident report was never—so the accident happened outside of the country. And so here in the United States, the NTSB will always do an investigation and release the report as public information, as a public document. But outside of the country, the accident investigation—although the NTSB and the FAA participated in it—the lead was the Salvadoran Civil Aviation Authority, and they opted not to make that investigation report public. And so to me, that screamed of a conspiracy. So I thread that into the whole story. And, you know, my family gets the report through indirect means, and I'm able to dive into it, and lo and behold, I discover smoking guns in the report that indicate that the industry lied and covered up. And there were conspiracies, which are not—they're not unique to this one accident. And that's the other thing I do in the book, is I bring in parallel accidents here in the United States that reinforce that the industry is a global industry, and that corporate greed is alive and well in this industry as well.Jennie NashYeah, indeed, your book is revelatory that way. And that leads me to a question I want to ask you both, which I'll start with you, Rossana. Given how hard it was to write the story, and to be in it, and to think about it, and how this plane crash dominated your thinking for so long, what do you think about when you step on a plane? Is it hard for you?Rossana D’AntonioWell, there's a little trepidation. Yes, absolutely. Every time I have to fly, there's a thinking in the back of the mind, right? I think I had a conversation with you, Jennie, where we talked about when I crossed the threshold, whether we like it or not, we are relinquishing all sense of control to those people who are flying the plane and to everybody else in the industry who helps support that pilot and co-pilot, and we have to trust that everyone has done their job. And we've discovered with recent incidents that that isn't always true. So, I mean, there are things that I do. I mean, I try to sit in the exit row. From now on, I will be sitting on 11A, you know? And, you know, I do pay attention to the safety message that the flight attendants do before we depart. I think that's a common courtesy. And by the way, you know, a lot of us feel that we're professional flyers, but we've never been tested under the most dire of conditions in an accident, so we just assume we know what to do. But do we really? And hopefully we'll never be, you know, required to put that knowledge into use. I text my husband, “We're leaving now, taking off,” and then when we land, I tell him that we've landed safe and sound, because there's no guarantee, there's no guarantee that we will make it to our destination. I like to believe—you know, we've been conditioned to believe—that flying is the safest mode of travel, and I believe that, I really do. I don't want to dispel that. I don't want to cause fear. But I do also believe that the industry is under tremendous strain. Those two things can be true at the same time. We can't just say, “I'm not going to travel.” That's just not realistic. And so I choose to trust just like my brother trusted the system when he was alive. I choose to trust the system, and we'll leave it at that.Jennie NashI love that. Marty, what about you?Marty Ross-DolenI find, interestingly, I have a lot more anxiety leading up to flying than actually while I'm flying. In the days before, I can't really focus. Part of it is this feeling of needing to get every little thing in order. And it just sort of takes over in my mind. So the thing that I like the least about flying is the days before I actually do it. And then I have a tradition that I insist that anybody flying with me, that I know personally, also take part in, which is that I kiss the plane, kiss my hand, and place it on the outside of the plane. I think that that's super superstitiously protective. And then I actually feel some relief once I'm in my seat that it's going to move forward. And maybe, maybe part of that is that whatever control I've had up to that point, I can let go. But I do, you know, my husband always says it's safer to fly than drive. And I think that that's true. I'm not a great passenger in a car, for sure, but I'm with Rossana. You trust the system, and you have to live, and you can't choose not to travel or not use a mode of transportation. It's just the way our society and lives are. And I guess I feel grateful and fortunate that we have those options. So, yeah.Jennie NashI love that! Kiss the plane. I might start doing that. I cannot recommend both of these books more. They're so beautiful, they're so different. Reading them together would be incredibly powerful if that's something listeners are inclined to do. But just to remind folks, Marty's book is called Always There, Always Gone. Rossana's book is called 26 Seconds. Thank you both for coming on with each other to talk about this unique connection you have to each other and also your individual books. Can you tell folks where they can go to learn more other than the obvious, go-buy-the-book places? Marty, why don't you go first?Marty Ross-DolenSure. Thank you. All of my information—there's a lot to learn through my website, which is martyrossdolen.com. It's M-A-R-T-Y-R-O-S-S-D-O-L-E-N.com, where there's things to learn about Highlights, there's book club questions, there's Q&A’s, just lots of things. There are links to things I've done and all places where you can find the book.Jennie NashWe'll link to that in the show notes. It's just a beautiful book about mothers and daughters and grandmothers and history and our place in it, and grief and life and all of it. It's a beautiful read. And Rossana, where can people find your geeky and soulful book about your beautiful brother, Caesar [Captain Cesare D'Antonio], and his love of flying and this tragedy that unfolded and how you made sense of it? Where can they learn more?Rossana D’AntonioYeah, thank you. So my website is rossanadantonio.com—that's R-O-S-S-A-N-A-D-A-N-T-O-N-I-O.com—and you can find all sorts of information there as well.Jennie NashWell, thank you both for talking to me today.Rossana D’AntonioThank you, Jennie. Thank you, Marty.Marty Ross-DolenThank you, Jennie. Thank you, Rossana. It's been a pleasure.Rossana D’AntonioIt's been fun.Jennie NashAnd for our listeners, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.NarratorThe Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

This week’s episode explores how to tap into your unique creative genius and align it with your values to become the writer you were meant to be. Jennie Nash and Dr. Diana Hill, a clinical psychologist, dive into the Wise Effort Method. Hear about Diana's journey of overcoming her book writing challenges and how Jennie guided her through unleashing her writing genius. They also discuss how to clear mental blocks, focus creative energy, and integrate daily rituals to enhance your writing process — and your life.In This Episode, We Explore:* How to identify and overcome your mental stories and obstacles in writing* Strategies to open up creatively and align your work with your values* Practical ways to harness and focus your unique genius energy* The importance of ritual and community in the writing processBooks MentionedWise Effort: How to Focus Your Genius Energy on What Matters MostIn the Absence of the Ordinary – by Francis WellerThinking of starting a book?Join the September 16th virtual writing workshop with Jennie and Diana: https://drdianahill.com/wise-effort-book-idea-lab This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe