The Geek In Review

For the Fourth of July week, we thought we'd do something fun and probably a little weird. Greg spoke with an AI guest named Justis for this episode. Justis, powered by OpenAI's GPT-4, was able to have a natural conversation with Greg and provide insightful perspectives on the use of generative AI in the legal industry, specifically in law firms. In the first part of their discussion, Justis gave an overview of the legal industry's interest in and uncertainty around adopting generative AI. While many law firm leaders recognize its potential, some are unsure of how it fits into legal work or worry about risks. Justis pointed to examples of firms exploring AI and said letting lawyers experiment with the tools could help identify use cases. Greg and Justis then discussed the challenges for the legal industry in using AI, like knowledge gaps, data issues, technology maturity, and managing change. They also talked about the upsides of using AI for tasks such as research, drafting, and review, including efficiency and cost benefits, as well as downsides like over-reliance on AI and ethical concerns. The conversation turned to how AI could streamline law firm operations, with opportunities around scheduling, paperwork, billing, client insights, and more. However, Justis noted that human oversight is still critical. Justis and Greg also discussed how AI may impact legal jobs, creating demand for new skills and roles but aiming to augment human work rather than replace it. Finally, Justis suggested innovations law firms could build with AI like research and drafting tools, analytics, dispute resolution systems, and project management. Justis emphasized that focusing on user needs, ethics, and change management will be key for successfully implementing AI. Looking ahead, Justis anticipated continuing progress in legal AI, regulatory changes, a focus on ethics, growing demand for AI skills, and AI becoming a competitive advantage for some firms. While this was a "unique" episode for The Geek in Review, we hope it provided an insightful "conversation" about the current and future state of generative AI in the legal industry. There is significant promise but there are also challenges around managing change, addressing risks, and ensuring the responsible development of new AI tools. With the right focus and approach, law firms can start exploring ways to make the most of AI and gain a competitive edge. But they must make AI work for human professionals, not the other way around. Listen on mobile platforms:  Apple Podcasts |  Spotify Contact Us: Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠@gebauerm⁠⁠⁠⁠, or ⁠⁠⁠⁠@glambert⁠⁠⁠⁠Voicemail: 713-487-7821Email: geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.comMusic: ⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠Transcript

Isha Marathe, a tech reporter for American Lawyer Media, joined the podcast to discuss her recent article on how deep fake technology is coming to litigation and whether the legal system is prepared. Deep fakes are hyper-realistic images, videos or audio created using artificial intelligence to manipulate or generate fake content. They are easy and inexpensive to create but difficult to detect. Marathe believes deep fakes have the potential to severely impact the integrity of evidence and the trial process if the legal system is unprepared. E-discovery professionals are on the front lines of detecting deep fakes used as evidence, according to Marathe. However, they currently only have limited tools and methods to authenticate digital evidence and determine if it is real or AI-generated. Marathe argues judges and lawyers also need to be heavily educated on the latest developments in deep fake technology in order to counter their use in court. Regulations, laws and advanced detection technology are still lacking but urgently needed. Marathe predicts that in the next two to five years, deep fakes will significantly start to affect litigation and pose risks to the judicial process if key players are unprepared. States will likely pass a patchwork of laws to regulate AI-generated images. Sophisticated detection software will emerge but will not be equally available in all courts, raising issues of equity and access to justice. The two recent cases where parties claimed evidence as deep fakes highlight the issues at stake but did not dramatically alter the trial outcomes. However, as deep fake technology continues to rapidly advance, it may soon be weaponized to generate highly compelling and persuasive fake evidence that could dupe both legal professionals and jurors. Once seen, such imagery can be hard to ignore, even if proven to be false or AI-generated. Marathe argues that addressing and adapting to the rise of deep fakes will require a multi-pronged solution: education, technology tools, regulations and policy changes. But progress on all fronts is slow while threats escalate quickly. Deep fakes pose an alarm for legal professionals and the public, dragging the legal system as a whole into an era of “post-truth.” Trust in the integrity of evidence and trial outcomes could be at stake. Overall, it was an informative if sobering discussion on the state of the legal system’s preparedness for inevitable collisions with deep fake technology. Links Turbocharged by Election Season, Deepfakes May Soon Face Legal Reckonings (free registration req.) Deepfakes Are Coming to Courts. Are Judges, Juries and Lawyers Ready? (free registration req.) Catch Deepfakes If You Can: Can E-Discovery Tools Keep Up With Gen AI? by Cassandre Coyer (free registration req.) Listen on mobile platforms:  Apple Podcasts |  Spotify Contact Us: Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠@gebauerm⁠⁠⁠⁠, or ⁠⁠⁠⁠@glambert⁠⁠⁠⁠Voicemail: 713-487-7821Email: geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.comMusic: ⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠Transcript

Our guest this week is Kristina Satkunas, Director of Analytic Consulting at LexisNexis. Kristina discusses the recently released LexisNexis CounselLink Enterprise Legal Management Trends Report for 2023. This annual report provides insights and benchmarks on key metrics related to corporate legal spending and outside counsel relationships. The 2023 report found that law firm hourly rates increased 4.5% over the past year, the highest year-over-year increase in the 10 years LexisNexis has published the report. While rate increases are not surprising, the magnitude is noteworthy. Kris attributes the largest drivers of the increase to economic factors like inflation as well as lower demand for certain types of legal work. However, average blended rates (the rates charged for entire matters rather than individual timekeepers) remained relatively flat. This suggests in-house counsel are mitigating rate hikes by changing the mix of firms, timekeepers, and types of timekeepers working their matters. The report also found the ongoing trend of consolidation to fewer outside firms continues, with 61% of companies using 10 or fewer firms for 80% of their legal spending. Kristina expects this trend to remain relatively stable but notes there are benefits to using both a smaller number of firms (e.g. better rates, stronger relationships) and a larger number of firms (e.g. subject matter expertise, competitive rates). She recommends companies determine when to use large firms versus smaller or midsize firms based on factors like matter complexity, risk profile, and cost. Alternative fee arrangements (AFAs) have not gained significant traction according to the report, remaining at about 12% of matters. Kristina is an advocate for wider AFA adoption and believes companies need to ask for and consider AFA proposals, especially for appropriate matters. AFAs can help buffer rising hourly rates. She acknowledges AFAs require effort to evaluate and implement but thinks legal operations teams and outside counsel should work together using data and analytics to develop reasonable AFA proposals. The report provides new data on international lawyer rates in 22 countries. Rates differ significantly between countries based on factors like a country's economy, political stability, and role in global trade and commerce. Many companies are leveraging international firms for regulatory, litigation, IP, and other legal needs outside the U.S. Benchmark data on rates in different countries provides helpful context, especially when engaging firms in new countries. Kristina sees two significant changes on the horizon: Determining how to properly and effectively employ AI and technology to increase efficiency and reduce costs; and Continued access to data enabling both in-house and outside counsel to make smarter, data-driven decisions. When asked what metric in-house and outside counsel should focus on, Kristina recommends using available data, whether from the survey or a company's own systems. Data is a "two-way street" that should be shared collaboratively to improve decision making. Links CounselLink® 2023 Trends Report: In-depth Perspective on Rising Outside Counsel Billing Rates CounselLink Listen on mobile platforms:  Apple Podcasts |  Spotify Contact Us: Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠@gebauerm⁠⁠⁠⁠, or ⁠⁠⁠⁠@glambert⁠⁠⁠⁠Voicemail: 713-487-7821Email: geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.comMusic: ⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠Transcript

This week on The Geek in Review, Marlene Gebauer and Greg Lambert talk with Curt Meltzer, principal of Meltzer Consulting, LLC. Meltzer has over 40 years of experience in the legal and legal tech industry. He discusses his interest in pro bono and community outreach programs in law firms and legal tech companies. He notes that while 95% of AmLaw 200 law firms highlight pro bono work on their websites, many legal tech companies do not prioritize these efforts. Meltzer emphasizes that pro bono and community work is good for business. It enhances company culture, helps with recruiting and retaining top talent, and strengthens customer relationships. He argues that legal tech companies should consider emulating their law firm clients' community programs. This could include donating software or services, allowing employees paid time off for volunteer work, or collaborating directly with organizations that law firm clients support. Meltzer highlights LexisNexis and Thomson Reuters as leaders in the legal tech industry for their work promoting access to justice and the rule of law around the world. However, he notes that companies of any size can contribute, whether through recognizing employees who volunteer or donating resources. He published a list of 41 legal tech companies that do highlight community outreach on their websites to raise awareness, though he found 39 companies with no mention of such efforts. Meltzer sees both opportunities and challenges ahead. Private equity investment in legal tech companies may prioritize short-term profits over community programs. However, companies that do not respond to customer interest in their pro bono and corporate social responsibility initiatives risk losing business to competitors. Overall, Meltzer aims to foster conversations about strengthening the relationship between the legal tech community and the broader community. Corporations that embrace ESG programs and give back to the communities they serve will thrive. Links: Legal Tech Vendors Give Back List Driving Social Responsibility Listen on mobile platforms:  Apple Podcasts |  Spotify Contact Us: Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠@gebauerm⁠⁠⁠⁠, or ⁠⁠⁠⁠@glambert⁠⁠⁠⁠Voicemail: 713-487-7821Email: geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.comMusic: ⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠Transcript⁠

This week we bring in Christian Lang, the CEO and founder of LEGA, a company that provides a secure platform for law firms and legal departments to safely implement and govern the use of large language models (LLMs) like GPT-3, Bard, and Claude. Christian talks with us about why he started LEGA, the value LEGA provides to law firms and legal departments, the challenges around security, confidentiality, and other issues as LLMs become more widely used, and how LEGA helps solve those problems. Christian started LEGA after gaining experience working with law firms through his previous company, Reynen Court. He saw an opportunity to give law firms a way to quickly implement and test LLMs while maintaining control and governance over data and compliance. LEGA provides a sandbox environment for law firms to explore different LLMs and AI tools to find use cases. The platform handles user management, policy enforcement, and auditing to give firms visibility into how the technologies are being used. Christian believes law firms want to use technologies like LLMs but struggle with how to do so securely and in a compliant way. LEGA allows them to get started right away without a huge investment in time or money. The platform is also flexible enough to work with any model a firm wants to use. As law firms get comfortable, LEGA will allow them to scale successful use cases across the organization. On the challenges law firms face, Christian points to Shadow IT as people will find ways to use the technologies with or without the firm's permission. Firms need to provide good options to users or risk losing control and oversight. He also discusses the difficulty in training new lawyers as LLMs make some tasks too easy, the coming market efficiencies in legal services, and the strategic curation of knowledge that will still require human judgment. Some potential use cases for law firms include live chatbots, document summarization, contract review, legal research, and market intelligence gathering. As models allow for more tailored data inputs, the use cases will expand further. Overall, Christian is excited for how LLMs and AI can transform the legal industry but emphasizes that strong governance and oversight are key to implementing them successfully. Contact Us:  Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠@gebauerm⁠⁠⁠⁠, or ⁠⁠⁠⁠@glambert⁠⁠⁠⁠Voicemail: 713-487-7821Email: geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.comMusic: ⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠ Listen on mobile platforms:  Apple Podcasts |  Spotify ⁠⁠Transcript⁠

We talk with Michael Bommarito, CEO of 273 Ventures and well-known innovator and thinker in legal technology and education. Bommarito and his colleague, Daniel Katz were behind GPT-3 and GPT-4 taking the Bar Exam. While he and Katz understand the hype in the media reaction, he states that most of the legal and technology experts who were following the advancements in generative AI, expected the results and had already moved on to the next phase in the use of AI in legal. While we talked to Michael a couple of days before the news broke about a lawyer in New York who submitted a brief to the court relying upon ChatGPT to write the brief and not understanding that AI tools can completely make up cases, fact pattern, and citations, he does talk about the fact that we are falling behind in educating law students and other in understanding how to use Large Language Models (LLMs) properly. In fact, if we don't start teaching 1Ls and 2Ls in law school immediately, law schools will be doing a disservice for their students for many years to come. Currently, Bommarito is following up his work at LexPredict, which was sold to Elevate Services in 2018, with 273 Ventures and Kelvin.Legal. With these companies, he aims to bring more efficiency and reduce marginal costs in the legal industry through the application of AI. He sees the industry as one that primarily deals with information and knowledge, yet continues to struggle with high costs and inefficiency. With 273 Ventures and Kelvin.Legal, he is building solutions to help firms bring order to the chaos that is their legal data. AI and data offer promising solutions for the legal industry but foundational issues around education and adaptation must be addressed. Bommarito explains that decades of inefficiency and mismatched data need to be adjusted before the true value of the AI tools can be achieved. He also believes that while there might have been many false starts on adjustments to the billable hour through things like Alternative Fee Arrangements (AFAs) in the past, the next 12-36 months are going to be pivotal in shifting the business model of the legal industry. Contact Us:  Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠@gebauerm⁠⁠⁠⁠, or ⁠⁠⁠⁠@glambert⁠⁠⁠⁠Voicemail: 713-487-7821Email: geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.comMusic: ⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠ Listen on mobile platforms:  Apple Podcasts |  Spotify ⁠⁠Transcript⁠

In this episode, we welcome Laura Terrell, an executive coach at ⁠Laura Terrell, LLC⁠, with a rich and varied career history. Laura has served as a Special Assistant to President George W. Bush at the White House, a senior level appointee at the US Department of Justice, an Equity partner at two large global law firms, and in-house counsel at a major global consulting and business advisory firm. Laura shares her journey from being a high-profile lawyer to becoming an executive coach. She explains how her fascination with understanding the motivations and challenges of professionals led her to coaching. Laura emphasizes the importance of listening, not just to clients' legal problems, but to their broader professional and personal concerns. Laura provides insight into what executive coaching is, describing it as a collaborative process that supports clients in identifying their goals and working towards them. She explains that coaching can feel therapeutic, but it is not therapy. It's about facilitating someone else's goals and supporting their exploration of what's important to them. She discusses the various challenges faced by lawyers and C-level executives, including transitioning into leadership roles, building business, managing a team, and adapting to in-house roles. Laura also talks about coaching for lawyers at the start of their careers, helping them navigate the transition from theory to practice and understand the expectations of their roles. Laura highlights the common mistake of making assumptions in the legal industry. She encourages lawyers to challenge their assumptions and be open to change, given the evolving nature of the industry. In addition to her coaching work, Laura is the General Counsel to a nonprofit and invests in women-owned businesses. She shares her passion for supporting women and learning about different business areas. This episode provides valuable insights into the role of executive coaching in the legal industry and how it can support professionals at all stages of their careers. Whether you're a seasoned lawyer, a C-level executive, or a lawyer just starting out, there's something to learn from Laura's experiences and expertise. Links: Laura Terrell (⁠LinkedIn⁠ and ⁠Instagram⁠) ⁠Laura Terrell, LLC⁠ ⁠Connect Our Kids⁠ Contact Us:  Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠@gebauerm⁠⁠⁠⁠, or ⁠⁠⁠⁠@glambert⁠⁠⁠⁠Voicemail: 713-487-7821Email: geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.comMusic: ⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠ Listen on mobile platforms:  Apple Podcasts |  Spotify ⁠⁠Transcript⁠

Many of us have wondered when the big two legal information providers would jump into the Generative AI game, and it looks like LexisNexis is going public first with the launch of Lexis+ AI. We sat down with Jeff Pfeifer, Chief Product Officer for UK, Ireland, Canada, and US, and discuss the launch and what it means for LexisNexis going forward. Pfeifer discusses how LexisNexis+ AI offers conversational search, summarization, and drafting tools to help lawyers work more efficiently. The tools provide contextual, iterative search so users can refine and improve results. The drafting tools can help with tasks like writing client emails or advisory statements. The summarization features can summarize datasets like regulations, opinions, and complaints. LexisNexis is working with leading AmLaw 50 firms in a commercial preview program to get feedback and input on the AI tools. LexisNexis also launched an AI Insider Program for any interested firms to learn about AI and how it may impact their business. There is definitely demand for the AI Insider Program with over 3,000 law firms already signed up. Pfeifer emphasizes LexisNexis' focus on responsible AI. They developed and follow a set of AI principles to guide their product development, including understanding the real-world impact, preventing bias, explaining how solutions work, ensuring human oversight and accountability, and protecting privacy. Pfeifer predicts AI tools like LexisNexis Plus AI will increase access to legal services by allowing lawyers and firms to work more efficiently and take on more work. He also sees opportunities to use the tools to help pro se litigants and courts. However, he cautions that the responsible and ethical development and use of AI is crucial. Overall, Pfeifer believes AI will greatly improve efficiency and capacity in the legal profession over the next 2-5 years but that responsible adoption of the technology is key. Links: Lexis+ AI RELX AI Principles (PDF) Jeff Pfefer LinkedIn / Twitter Contact Us: Twitter: ⁠⁠@gebauerm⁠⁠, or ⁠⁠@glambert⁠⁠Voicemail: 713-487-7821Email: geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.comMusic: ⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠ Transcript

In this riveting episode of our podcast, we delve into the fascinating world of AI in the legal industry with our esteemed guests, Nathan Walter and Bridget Albiero. Walter, a former attorney and founder of BriefPoint.ai, has leveraged his legal expertise and passion for technology to automate the manual processes that often bog down law firms. Bridget Albiero, a User Experience (UX) and User Design (UD) expert, underscores the significance of intuitive design in making these AI tools not just effective, but user-friendly. Nathan Walter has been instrumental in creating BriefPoint.ai, a tool designed specifically for lawyers to eliminate the mundane and time-consuming aspects of law practice. With the goals of automating the litigation process from response to appeal, Walter and Albeiro are focused on removing the mundane tasks, such as typing, from the process and allowing the attorneys to focus more on their legal experience and expertise over the grunt work that takes up too much of their time already.  However, the success of such tools is not solely dependent on their technical capabilities. Bridget Albiero's role in UX and UD ensures that these AI systems are designed with the end user in mind. With the mission to make legal professionals' lives much easier. Bridget's work is critical in crafting an interface that enables lawyers to accomplish more work in less time, truly maximizing the benefits of AI integration. Nathan and Bridget's collaboration epitomizes the intersection of law and technology. They argue that the advent of AI tools, such as BriefPoint.ai, will invariably put pressure on law firms to rethink their traditional billing models. Nathan anticipates a shift towards contingency fee-based and flat fee billings, spurred on by the increased efficiency AI brings to the table. In addition, the ability for the plaintiff's lawyers to reduce the overall amount of work that they need to put into each case, there will be more incentives to take on work that they might otherwise not consider. This has a multitude of effects ranging from flooding courts with more and more cases, to overwhelming defense firms and corporations with a much higher litigation matters, to making working at plaintiff's firms more attractive to associates who don't want to work the number of hours they would need to do in BigLaw firms.  Bridget also emphasizes the importance of approaching AI with a balanced perspective. While there are a number of positives when it comes to AI in the legal process, there are also downsides that need to be considered as well. Bridget and Nathan run through some of those issues as well. This thoughtful conversation with Nathan and Bridget offers a unique insight into the future of the legal industry, where AI and human ingenuity work hand in hand. Listen in to learn more about how these changes might soon be reshaping the legal landscape. Contact Us: Twitter: ⁠⁠@gebauerm⁠⁠, or ⁠⁠@glambert⁠⁠Voicemail: 713-487-7821Email: geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.comMusic: ⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠ Transcript

In this episode of The Geek in Review Podcast, hosts Greg Lambert and Marlene Gebauer interview Richard Tromans, founder of Tromans Consulting and artificiallawyer.com. Tromans shares his insights on the future of legal innovation and the upcoming Legal Innovators California conference, scheduled to take place on June 7-8 in San Francisco. Tromans begins the conversation by highlighting the role of artificial intelligence (AI) in the legal industry. He emphasizes the importance of not only adopting AI but also using it to its full potential to deliver better legal services. He also discusses the potential impact of AI on law firm business models. Moving on to the topic of alternative legal service providers (ALSPs), Tromans examines their role in the legal industry and how it has evolved over time. He believes that the future of ALSPs depends on their ability to embrace technology and shift their focus from being mere “bodyshops” to incorporating more sophisticated technology and consulting services. The discussion then moves on to the Legal Innovators California conference. Tromans shares his views on what attendees can expect, including insights into the latest legal innovation trends, opportunities for cross-fertilization between private practice and in-house legal teams, and exposure to a variety of ALSPs. Tromans also shares information on his own platform, artificiallawyer.com, which provides news, features, and educational videos related to legal innovation, and the upcoming conference. He invites listeners to check out the conference website, legalinnovatorscalifornia.com, for more information. Tromans emphasized the need for the legal industry to shift its focus from traditional metrics like profits and risk reduction to a more holistic approach that considers broader outcomes. He believes that this shift will take time, but he is hopeful that the Legal Innovators California conference and similar events will pave the way for the industry to move forward in this direction.