Australia in the World

After a month away from the news, this episode Allan and Darren try to catch up. They begin with tragedy and turmoil in the United States. What do the protests and racial tensions—and Trump’s efforts to handle them—say about the US? Are there any implications for Australia? Turning next to recent events in Australian foreign policy, we now have a Comprehensive Strategic Partnership with India—is this significant? And what should PM Morrison do about President Trump’s invitation to the (delayed) G-7 summit in September? Next, while noting the story is not over, Darren asks Allan for what lessons he draws from the Australian government’s call for an independent inquiry into the early handling of Covid-19, and everything followed, culminating in the World Health Assembly resolution in mid-May. Hong Kong is next on the agenda, with a focus on the logic behind Australia’s decision to issue two joint statements criticising Beijing's recent moves, rather than going it alone, as New Zealand did. Finally, geoeconomic issues are very much back in Australian news, with proposed new foreign investment review powers for the government, a travel warning issued for Australia by the Chinese government, and reporting that the Five Eyes grouping is considering a coordinated strategic economic response to the Covid-19 crisis. What do Allan and Darren make of all this? As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj We thank AIIA intern Maddie Gordon for her help with research and audio editing, XC Chong for research support, and Rory Stenning for composing our theme music. Relevant links Ta-Nehisi Coates on the Ezra Klein show podcast: https://www.vox.com/2020/6/5/21279530/ta-nehisi-coates-ezra-klein-show-george-floyd-police-brutality-trump-biden Joint Statement on a Comprehensive Strategic Partnership between Republic of India and Australia, 4 June 2020: https://www.pm.gov.au/media/joint-statement-csp-republic-india-australia World Health Organization, “Covid-19 Response”, 73rd World Health Assembly, Agenda Item 3, 18 May 2020: https://apps.who.int/gb/ebwha/pdf_files/WHA73/A73_CONF1Rev1-en.pdf Editorial Board, “The Coronavirus Inquiry”, Wall Street Journal, 19 May 2020:  https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-coronavirus-inquiry-11589930551 Chen Qingqing and Liu Xin, “Australia gets ‘slap to the face’ as global community welcomes China-sponsored resolution on COVID-19”, Global Times, 19 May 2020: https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1188817.shtml Stephen Dziedzic, “Australia started a fight with China over an investigation into COVID-19 — did it go too hard?” ABC News, 20 May 2020: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-20/wha-passes-coronavirus-investigation-australia-what-cost/12265896 Joint statement on Hong Kong national security legislation, 23 May 2020: https://www.foreignminister.gov.au/minister/marise-payne/media-release/joint-statement-hong-kong-national-security-legislation Joint statement on Hong Kong, 28 May 2020: https://www.foreignminister.gov.au/minister/marise-payne/media-release/joint-statement-hong-kong The Little Red Podcast (Facebook page): https://www.facebook.com/LittleRedPodcast/ David Crowe, “Foreign deals set to face tougher security checks”, Sydney Morning Herald, 4 June 2020: https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/foreign-deals-set-to-face-tougher-security-checks-20200604-p54zki.html Max Koslowski, “Almost 400 anti-China attacks since pandemic began”, Sydney Morning Herald, 7 June 2020: https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/almost-400-anti-china-attacks-since-pandemic-began-20200607-p550a8.html Simon Benson, “Five Eyes focus on economic pact”, The Australian, 8 June 2020: https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/politics/five-eyes-expanded-to-focus-on-economic-pact/news-story/31ee5e37f1942a8188535d4f7585daa1 National Security Podcast, Foreign Investment and national security with Jeff Wilson, 10 June 2020: https://www.policyforum.net/national-security-podcast-foreign-investment-and-national-security/ Wind of Change podcast: https://crooked.com/podcast-series/wind-of-change/ Ta-Nehisi Coates, Between the World and Me: https://www.amazon.com.au/Between-World-Me-Ta-Nehisi-Coates-ebook/dp/B00SEFAIRI Sarah Cooper’s twitter feed: https://twitter.com/sarahcpr Martin Gurri, The Revolt of the public and the crisis of authority (Goodreads page): https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/22451908-the-revolt-of-the-public-and-the-crisis-of-authority

Allan and Darren welcome Harinder Sidhu to the podcast to discuss India and Australia-India relations. A Deputy Secretary in the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, Harinder recently returned from a posting as the Australian High Commissioner in New Delhi. Before she went to India, Harinder headed the multilateral division of DFAT while Australia was on the UN Security Council. Prior to that, she spent time in the Department of Climate Change, the Office of National Assessments, and the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet. She’s also previously had postings in Damascus and Moscow. The conversation begins with India itself. What is the spectrum of views inside India regarding the role it should be playing in the world? How much does India’s domestic political system—both its strengths and continuing challenges—influence its behaviour on the international stage? What is India’s "pitch" for international leadership, and what would be the characteristics of an Indian "model" of international order? And does Covid-19 change the answers to these questions? Turning to Australia’s relationship with India, while successive Australian governments have tended to “discover” India only for the relationship to recede, why might the foundations for a stronger and more durable partnership now be in place? What’s the Indian view of the bilateral relationship? What role does the Indian diaspora in Australia play, and what about Australians who are in India? Finally, what was Harinder’s own experience as High Commissioner as a woman of Indian heritage? And Darren finishes with a very on-brand question for the podcast, asking for Harinder's views on the need to integrate economics and security into policymaking. As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj We thank AIIA intern Maddie Gordon for her help with research and audio editing and Rory Stenning for composing our theme music. Relevant links Harinder Sidhu, “Celebrating the ties that bind”, Speech at Hawker Ball, the opening of the Asia Society Australia Centre, Melbourne, 3 October 2019: https://asiasociety.org/australia/celebrating-ties-bind University of Sydney, “Meet Australia’s High Commissioner to India”, 20 November 2019: https://www.sydney.edu.au/news-opinion/news/2019/11/20/meet-australias-high-commissioner-to-india.html Australian PM Scott Morrison’s Message for Raisina Dialogue 2020, 14 January 2020: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YM023sUFvwg

Allan and Darren welcome Dr Heather Smith PSM to the podcast. Until January 2020, Heather was Secretary of the Department of Industry, Innovation and Science, which followed serving as Secretary of the Department of Communications and the Arts. Before that she was a Deputy Secretary in the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet (including serving as G20 Sherpa in 2014 when Australia held the G20 Presidency) and the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, as well as a Deputy Director General in the Office of National Assessments. She has also held senior jobs in Treasury, the Reserve Bank of Australia, and the Australian National University. The interview begins with the G20, which has not performed well during the Covid-19 crisis. Is it salvageable, and what concrete things should Australia be advocating for? What else can Australia do to help our regional partners during this unprecedented crisis? Darren shifts the conversation to industrial policy—the topic of Heather’s economics PhD thesis! How does she understand advocacy across the West for a more active state, and how is Australia positioned? Notwithstanding the vulnerabilities exposed by Covid-19, is resilience in our supply chains even realistic? And how does she view the expanding concept of national security, especially as it applies to critical technologies? The conversation turns to the rise of populism—to what extent is economic grievance the major driver, and does Covid-19 offer a chance to “reset” public policy in its aftermath? Allan then asks Heather, who holds a PhD in economics, what she as an economist is most likely to get wrong when observing and analysing the world? And as a non-economist, what is the thing she’s most likely to miss? Finally, Heather, Allan and Darren all take turns in answering the question: what do you expect to be different in Australia’s world after Covid-19? As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj We thank AIIA intern Maddie Gordon for her help with research and audio editing and Rory Stenning for composing our theme music. Relevant links Heather Smith, “Doing policy differently”, Keynote Address, Institute of Public Administration Australia, 22 March 2018: https://vs286790.blob.core.windows.net/docs/Transcript_Doing%20Policy%20Differently_Dr%20Heather%20Smith_22%20March%202018.pdf Heather Smith and Allan Gyngell, “Technology will unite the post-virus world order”, Australian Financial Review, 23 April 2020: https://www.afr.com/policy/economy/technology-will-unite-the-post-virus-world-order-20200422-p54m4v  

This week Allan and Darren devote the entire episode to a wild and very tense few weeks in the bilateral relationship between Australia and China. These events kicked off with Foreign Minister Marise Payne’s call for an inquiry into China’s handling of the coronavirus outbreak, and snowballed from there, in particular with an interview conducted by China’s ambassador to Australia, duelling press releases from the Chinese embassy and DFAT, and interventions from mining magnate Andrew “Twiggy” Forrest.   As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj We thank AIIA intern Maddie Gordon for her help with research and audio editing, XC Chong for research support, and Rory Stenning for composing our theme music. Relevant links ABC article covering FM Payne’s call for an inquiry: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-19/payne-calls-for-inquiry-china-handling-of-coronavirus-covid-19/12162968 SBS report on PM Morrison’s first comments: https://www.sbs.com.au/news/australia-and-china-clash-over-independent-inquiry-into-coronavirus-pandemic Sydney Morning Herald report on PM Morrison talking to UN, Germany, France: https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/morrison-pushes-for-global-review-into-handling-of-covid-19-20200421-p54lub.html Peter Hartcher column in the Sydney Morning Herald: https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/the-week-australia-stood-up-to-china-and-global-giants-20200424-p54n3c.html Embassy of PRC in Australia, transcript of Ambassador Cheng’s interview with AFR: http://au.china-embassy.org/eng/sghdxwfb_1/t1773741.htm Report on the response from Marise Payne and Penny Wong: https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/what-is-needed-is-global-cooperation-marise-payne-slaps-down-beijing-s-boycott-threat-20200427-p54njj.html   Darren’s analysis (co-authored with Victor Ferguson) on the ABC website covering the ambassador’s interview: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-29/china-boycott-diplomacy--coronavirus-comes-more-government/12194482   Trade Minister Simon Birmingham’s ABC interview transcript: https://www.trademinister.gov.au/minister/simon-birmingham/transcript/interview-abc-radio-canberra-am-sabra-lane-2 Embassy of PRC in Australia, response to media question regarding the Adamson phone call: http://au.china-embassy.org/eng/sghdxwfb_1/t1774089.htm   DFAT response: https://www.dfat.gov.au/news/media-release/dfat-statement-regarding-comments-embassy-peoples-republic-china   Article covering Kerry Stokes: https://www.watoday.com.au/national/western-australia/kerry-stokes-calls-for-china-backdown-urges-canberra-to-respect-wet-markets-20200430-p54ohj.html Albert Hirschman, National Power and the Structure of Foreign Trade (1945): https://www.ucpress.edu/book/9780520301337/national-power-and-the-structure-of-foreign-trade Money Heist (Netflix): https://www.netflix.com/title/80192098 Dustin O’Halloran (composer of “Arrival”), Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dustin_O%27Halloran Ramin Djawadi (composer of “Light of the Seven”), Podcast interview on Song Exploder: http://songexploder.net/ramin-djawadi

Covid-19 remains central to the news this week. Allan and Darren begin with President Trump’s decision to freeze U.S. funding to the World Health Organization, and assess the validity his criticisms. Australia’s Foreign Minister Marise Payne has proposed an inquiry, but is there even an alternative? And does this case tell us anything new about great power rivalry and the future of the international order? Darren is curious to explore the concept of “mask diplomacy”, a term used to describe deliveries of equipment and supplies by China to other countries stricken by the coronavirus. How should we think about this form of statecraft, and how novel is it, really? In the final segment, Darren asks Allan to explain what’s behind a change in DFAT’s organisation chart, with many new senior positions being created as part of the whole-of-government response to Covid-19. Allan describes some of the many things the department is doing, and also weighs in on a (small) controversy regarding the recall of Australia’s ambassador to Indonesia. As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj We thank AIIA intern Maddie Gordon for her help with research and audio editing, XC Chong for research support, and Rory Stenning for composing our theme music. Relevant links Jeff Mason and Steve Holland, “Trump halts World Health Organization funding amid coronavirus pandemic”, Reuters, 15 April: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-trump-who/trump-halts-world-health-organization-funding-amid-coronavirus-pandemic-idUSKCN21W34Y Brett Worthington, “Marise Payne calls for global inquiry into China's handling of the coronavirus outbreak”, ABC News, 19 April: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-19/payne-calls-for-inquiry-china-handling-of-coronavirus-covid-19/12162968 Geoff Raby, “Why the bell must toll for WHO chief Tedros”, Australian Financial Review, 17 April: https://www.afr.com/policy/foreign-affairs/why-the-bell-must-toll-for-who-chief-tedros-20200417-p54kpe Alexander Downer, “China must be held to account for unleashing a global catastrophe”, Australian Financial Review, 19 April: https://www.afr.com/policy/foreign-affairs/china-must-be-held-to-account-for-unleashing-a-global-catastrophe-20200419-p54l3o Allan Gyngell, “Australia in a post-Covid-19 world”, East Asia Forum, 29 March: https://www.eastasiaforum.org/2020/03/29/australia-in-a-post-covid-19-world/ Ilyana Kuziemko and Eric Werker, “How Much Is a Seat on the Security Council Worth? Foreign Aid and Bribery at the United Nations”, Journal of Political Economy 114(5) (2006), pp. 905-930: https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/default/files/kuziemko/files/kuziemko_werker.pdf Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, Organisation Chart, April 2020: https://www.dfat.gov.au/sites/default/files/dfat-org-chart-19-april.pdf Amanda Hodge, “Coronavirus: Canberra ‘condescending’ over withdrawal of ambassador to Indonesia”, The Australian, 16 April: https://www.theaustralian.com.au/world/canberra-condescending-over-withdrawal-of-ambassador-to-indonesia/news-story/282edc6f297cead2c78197fdfa07cf93 Peter Edwards, “Law, Politics and Intelligence: A life of Robert Hope”, NewSouth: https://www.newsouthbooks.com.au/books/biography-robert-marsden-hope-qc/  Knives Out (film): https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8946378/

This week Allan and Darren try to step back from Covid-19, and have a long-planned conversation about the United States: its domestic politics, its role in the world, and the state of the alliance relationship with Australia. Allan begins by asking Darren for his assessment of what’s happening inside the US right now, amid an upcoming presidential election, the challenge of the coronavirus, and of course the non-stop news cycle that is the Trump presidency. How much will Covid-19 affect the presidential campaign? The two discuss the bipartisan hardening of attitudes towards China, the near-complete absence of US leadership during the Covid-19 crisis, and how much of the damage to Washington’s global reputation might be washed away if Trump loses in November. Turning to the alliance, Allan draws upon his recent book—Fear of Abandonment—to provide background and context to the bilateral relationship from Australia’s perspective. Darren wonders whether the alliance matters much as a formal treaty, or whether the shared interests and values of the two nations are sufficient both to sustain cooperation, and draw them together in a crisis. Next, Allan analyses Lowy poll data showing that Australians trust the United States less, but still seem to agree that we need the alliance. Looking ahead, what will the likely frictions be between Canberra and Washington, and should Australia constantly be looking to do “more” to enhance the relationship? Thinking about the practice of Australian foreign policy, is managing the alliance relationship different to managing relations with China? And finally, do we know enough now to make an assessment of the future capability and resolve of the United States to be active in our region, as Hugh White’s recent book argues we must? As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj We thank AIIA intern Maddie Gordon for her help with research and audio editing, XC Chong for research support, and Rory Stenning for composing our theme music. Relevant links Allan Gyngell, Fear of Abandonment: Australia in the World since 1942: https://www.blackincbooks.com.au/books/fear-abandonment Joe Biden, “Why America must lead again: Rescuing U.S. foreign policy after Trump”, Foreign Affairs, January 2020: https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/united-states/2020-01-23/why-america-must-lead-again Natasha Kassam, Lowy Institute Poll 2019: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/publications/lowy-institute-poll-2019  Charles Edel and John Lee, “The future of the US-Australia alliance in an era of great power competition”, United States Studies Centre, 13 June 2019: https://www.ussc.edu.au/analysis/the-future-of-the-us-australia-alliance-in-an-era-of-great-power-competition Michael Green and Andrew Shearer, “Countering China’s militarization of the Indo-Pacific”, War on the Rocks, 23 April 2018: https://warontherocks.com/2018/04/countering-chinas-militarization-of-the-indo-pacific/ Hugh White, How to defend Australia: https://www.blackincbooks.com.au/books/how-defend-australia Ezra Klein Show, Interview with Evan Osnos: https://www.vox.com/2020/3/31/21200192/coronavirus-china-donald-trump-the-ezra-klein-show Peter Hessler “The Peace Corps Breaks Ties with China’, The New Yorker, 9 March 2020: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/03/16/the-peace-corps-breaks-ties-with-china Peter Hessler, River Town: Two Years on the Yangtze: https://www.harpercollins.com/9780060855024/river-town/ Flow State (newsletter): https://flowstate.substack.com/

Covid-19 will have a profound long-term impact on the world, both within countries and internationally. In this episode, Allan and Darren make some guesses as to how the world will look different after this crisis has passed, and how Australia can position itself accordingly. They begin with the global balance of power: will China emerge as the big “winner”, or could the US rehabilitate its leadership credentials (in particular if Joe Biden wins the presidency in November)? Prime Minister Scott Morrison said in parliament this week that Australia would prove that liberal democracies can cope with a challenge liked Covid-19. Is there a battle of “narratives” between democratic and authoritarian systems? With borders closing and economies slowing dramatically, advocates of sovereignty must be pleased—how will the crisis feed into the trend towards a greater reassertion of sovereignty, the decoupling phenomenon, and the greater willingness of governments to intervene in markets? And what about the rules-based order which, aged in its mid-70s and with underlying health conditions, is in a high risk category to fall victim to the coronavirus? Finally, Allan offers some thoughts about how the practice of diplomacy might change, and both he and Darren consider how the Australian government ought to be planning for a post Covid-19 world.  As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj We thank new AIIA intern Maddie Gordon for her help with research and audio editing, XC Chong and Isabel Hancock for research support and Rory Stenning for composing our theme music.  Relevant links Scott Morrison, Ministerial Statement, 23 March 2020: https://www.pm.gov.au/media/ministerial-statement-australian-parliament-house-act Hilary Mantel, The Mirror and the Light: https://www.harpercollins.com.au/9780007480999/the-mirror-and-the-light/ 

Allan and Darren commence with an update on the novel coronavirus, now called Covid-19. How should we evaluate China’s handling of the outbreak? Given the struggles of some democratic systems—the United States in particular—is an authoritarian approach best for public health crises? Allan attended a recent speech by Labor parliamentarian Tim Watts on the health of Australia's democracy, and Watts' argument resonates here. Staying in Australia, the Morrison government has been on the front foot regarding Covid-19, getting out ahead of the World Health Organisation in declaring a pandemic—have we lost trust in the WHO, and what does the global response tell us about international cooperation more generally?  The conversation turns to ASIO, the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation, and the first annual threat assessment delivered by Director-General Mike Burgess. How does Allan feel about ASIO “coming out of the shadows” like this and what are some of the drawbacks of establishing an annual statement? Is this a positive thing for Australia’s democracy? Should DFAT be looking to do something similar? Finally, Prime Minister Morrison recently hosted the Indonesian President Joko Widodo and New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern for separate bilateral visits. Allan offers his thoughts on the state of both bilateral relationships while Darren asks: are Australia and Indonesia in a bit of a holding pattern right now, and does Allan have any advice for PM Ardern to get traction on the deportation issue, currently a major source of tension?    As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj We thank outgoing AIIA intern Isabel Hancock for her help with research and audio editing, and XC Chong for research, and also welcome incoming AIIA intern Maddy Gordon. Thanks also to Rory Stenning for composing our theme music.  Relevant links Elizabeth Pisani, “The unpalatable lesson of coronavirus: dictatorships can be effective”, Prospect Magazine, 28 February 2020: https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/the-unpalatable-lesson-of-coronavirus-dictatorships-can-be-effective-china-world-health-organisation Australian Government, Biosecurity Act 2015: https://www.legislation.gov.au/Series/C2015A00061 Peter Hartcher, “How Australia defied global health authority on coronavirus”, Sydney Morning Herald, 28 February 2020: https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/how-australia-defied-global-health-authority-on-coronavirus-20200228-p545hr.html Tim Watts, “Democracy and the authoritarian challenge”, Lowy Lecture Series, National Press Club, Canberra, 27 February 2020: https://www.timwatts.net.au/news/transcripts/lowy-lecture-series-democracy-and-the-authoritarian-challenge/ Lee Hsien Loong, “on the COVID-19 situation in Singapore”, 8 February 2020: https://www.pmo.gov.sg/Newsroom/PM-Lee-Hsien-Loong-on-the-Novel-Coronavirus-nCoV-Situation-in-Singapore-on-8-February-2020 Mike Burgess, “Director-General’s Annual Threat Assessment”, Australian Security Intelligence Organisation, 24 February 2020: https://www.asio.gov.au/director-generals-annual-threat-assessment.html “Address by His Excellency Mr Joko Widodo, President of the Republic of Indonesia”, 9 February 2020: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YnetrtC73M ABC News, “Tensions rise between Morrison and Ardern over deportation of criminals”, 28 February 2020: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGc2s9YCmGA Andy Greenburg , Sandworm: A New Era of Cyberwar and the Hunt for the Kremlin’s Most Dangerous Hacker: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.ca/books/597684/sandworm-by-andy-greenberg/9780385544405 Rory Medcalf, Contest for the Indo-Pacific: Why China Won’t Map the Future: https://www.blackincbooks.com.au/books/contest-indo-pacific David Brooks, “The nuclear family was a mistake”, The Atlantic, March 2020: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/03/the-nuclear-family-was-a-mistake/605536/

This week Allan and Darren interview Richard Maude, who needs no introduction to regular observers of Australian foreign policy. Until recently, Richard was Deputy Secretary, Indo-Pacific Group, in the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. Prior to that, he headed the task force responsible for drafting the 2017 Foreign Policy White Paper. From 2013-2016, Richard was Director-General of the Office of National Assessments, and before that he was senior adviser on foreign policy and national security to Prime Minister Julia Gillard. Richard has now taken on a new position at the Asia Society Policy Institute as the inaugural Executive Director, Policy, and Senior Fellow. Allan commences the discussion by asking Richard how he thinks about the “Indo-Pacific” and to describe Australia’s Indo-Pacific strategy. How has the world changed since Richard started working on the Australian Foreign Policy White Paper back in 2016? Darren describes his own shock at the events of 2016, and asks Richard whether he has ever been personally surprised by any events in international affairs which, in turn, caused him to update his own “model” of the world. The conversation then returns to a familiar theme of recent episodes of the podcast, sovereignty, and the logic of Prime Minister Scott Morrison’s emphasis on the concept in developing his government’s foreign policy. Allan contrasts the challenges to the rules-based order that shaped the 2017 Foreign Policy White Paper—in particular relating to the Law of the Sea—with those that have come since, especially emanating from Australia’s allies. Is there still an order to defend and how does a country like Australia do it? And in doing so, will Australia need to be willing to accept trade-offs, such as deemphasising liberalism and democracy, in order to get cooperation on global challenges like climate change, war, or trade? The conversation moves to China, with Darren asking Richard the extent to which China’s domestic politics factors into his model of China’s behaviour on the world stage, and what major questions remain in his mind regarding China over the coming years. Closer to home, Darren asks whether Richard accepts the premise of two warring “tribes” in the Canberra policymaking community regarding China, and Richard’s answer speaks more broadly to the issue of how to integrate security and economic perspectives into policymaking. In the final part of the podcast, Allan asks the perennial question of why those who believe that foreign policy is a critical element of Australian statecraft have been unable to convince successive governments to invest in it, while Darren wonders how foreign policy successes can be measured. The podcast concludes with Richard describing his new role with the Asia Society Policy Institute, and reflections on how think tanks and academics can most effectively attract the attention and shape the views of ministers and policy advisers in Canberra. As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj  We thank AIIA intern Isabel Hancock for research and audio editing, Rory Stenning for composing our theme music and Angus Blackman for technical support in studio. Relevant links Richard Maude’s biography via the Asia Society Policy Institute: https://asiasociety.org/policy-institute/richard-maude  Richard Maude, “Charting a Course for Australia in a Changing Asia”, Asia Society Policy Institute, 13 February 2020: https://asiasociety.org/australia/charting-course-australia-changing-asia John Kehoe, “The division in Canberra over China”, Australian Financial Review, 2 December 2019: https://www.afr.com/policy/foreign-affairs/china-power-struggle-in-canberra-20191128-p53f27

Allan and Darren begin this episode with Australia’s response to the novel coronavirus, including the government’s efforts to evacuate Australians from Wuhan, the decision not to charge evacuees, and the decision to the bar entry into Australia of foreigners who have been in or travelled through China. Darren then wonders whether the variation across countries in the response to the virus—notably the hostility of Cambodia’s Prime Minister to wearing masks—is connected to China’s influence. Next up is the UK’s decision to allow Huawei to participate in the country’s 5G network. Given Australia came to the opposite position, Allan grapples with the fact that he knows and trusts the judgments of individuals involved with both decisions. Darren asks whether there is much precedent for the inventions by four Australian MPs into the UK debate, or the recent piece by former Australian Signals Directorate senior official Simeon Gilding expressing disappointment with the UK’s decision. What’s the path forward now for Australia? Allan and Darren do not entirely agree. The discussion moves to trade. Now that the Trump administration has neutered the World Trade Organisation’s appellate body by blocking the appointment of new judges, what’s next for the WTO? One interesting possibility is the creation of parallel appellate structures that essentially replicate the WTO model and allow willing countries (including Australia) to prop up the WTO system while a more permanent set of reforms can (hopefully) be negotiated. Finally, Darren asks Allan about bilateral free trade agreements between Australia and both the UK and EU that are on the agenda for 2020. As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj Thanks to AIIA intern Isabel Hancock for research and audio editing, and Rory Stenning for composing our theme music.  Relevant links Jane Norman, “Coronavirus evacuees avoid $1,000 charge for flight from China after Federal Government backs down”, ABC News, 2 February 2020: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-02/government-blames-dfat-for-coronavirus-charge-mix-up/11921846 Hannah Beach, “Quieter response to coronavirus in countries where China holds sway”. New York Times, 2 February 2020: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/02/world/asia/china-coronavirus-philippines-thailand.html Latika Bourke, “Four Australian MPs urge Britain to ban Huawei”, Sydney Morning Herald, 24 January 2020: https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/four-australian-mps-urge-britain-to-ban-huawei-20200124-p53u9x.html Simeon Gilding, “5G choices: a pivotal moment in world affairs”, ASPI Strategist, 28 January: https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/5g-choices-a-pivotal-moment-in-world-affairs/ Andrew Tillett and Hans van Leeuwen, “Australian warning over Trump’s WTO bear hug”, Australian Financial Review, 24 January 2020: https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/australian-warning-over-trump-s-wto-bear-hug-20200123-p53u4h Ivan Krastev and Stephen Holmes, The light that failed: A reckoning, https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/308/308740/the-light-that-failed/9780241345702.html Scholar’s Stage, “Public intellectuals have short shelf lives—But why?”, 29 January 2020: https://scholars-stage.blogspot.com/2020/01/why-public-intellectuals-have-short.html Tyler Cowen, “How public intellectuals can extend their shelf lives”, 6 February 2020: https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2020/02/how-public-intellectuals-can-extend-their-shelf-lives.html Kristen Roupenian, “Cat person”, The New Yorker, 4 December 2017: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/12/11/cat-person