Australia in the World

A discussion of the most important news and issues in international affairs through a uniquely Australian lens. Hosted by Darren Lim, in memory of Allan Gyngell.

Latest episodes

Oct 28, 2020 • 39min

Ep. 59: Malabar and an emerging balancing coalition; Senator Abetz and loyalty tests; diplomacy and quarantine

Oct 11, 2020 • 50min

Ep. 58: Mailbag! US failures; fearing abandonment; the Quad & democracy; grading China policy; DFAT in 2050

Thrilled that the podcast is about to cross the 100,000 lifetime download threshold (thank you all!), Allan and Darren try something new this week – answering mailbag questions. Is the US a ‘failed state’, and would ‘strategic autonomy’ be realistic for Australia? Will the title of Allan’s book on Australian foreign policy, “Fear of abandonment”, be appropriate for the next 70 years of Australian foreign policy? Are there any lessons for Australia and the Indo-Pacific from the recent ‘Abraham Accords’ between Israel and the UAE/Bahrain? Is the Quad viable as an ‘Arc of Democracy’, and are there any major takeaways from the ministerial in Tokyo this past week? Allan and Darren have their strongest disagreement in assigning a grade to the Australian government’s China policy since 2017, and have an interesting discussion about what control any government can have over public discourse. Next, what will the DFAT of 2050 look like? And finishing with some ‘meta’ questions – is the podcast a useful vehicle to help discipline their thoughts, and has each changed the other’s mind? We thank AIIA intern Mitchell McIntosh for his help with research and audio editing and XC Chong for research support. Thanks as always to Rory Stenning for composing our theme music. Relevant Links Hugh White, How to defend Australia (2019): https://www.blackincbooks.com.au/books/how-defend-australia Allan Gyngell, Fear of abandonment: Australia in the world since 1942 (2017): https://www.blackincbooks.com.au/books/fear-abandonment Allan Renouf, The frightened country (1979): https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/LIB16176 Brendan Taylor, “Realist optimist: Coral Bell’s contribution to Australian foreign and defence policy (2014): http://press-files.anu.edu.au/downloads/press/p303831/pdf/9.-Realist-Optimist-Coral-Bell%E2%80%99s-Contribution-to-Australian-Foreign-and-Defence-Policy.pdf Marise Payne, “Australia-India-Japan-United States Quad Foreign Ministers' Meeting”, Media Release, 6 October 2020: https://www.foreignminister.gov.au/minister/marise-payne/media-release/australia-india-japan-united-states-quad-foreign-ministers-meeting Scott Morrison, “Where we live”, Speech at Asialink, 27 June 2019: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/budget-of-skewed-priorities Alex Oliver, “A budget of skewed priorities”, Lowy Interpreter, 7 October 2020: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/budget-of-skewed-priorities Allan Gyngell and Michael Wesley, Making Australian Foreign policy (2012): https://doi.org/10.1017/CBO9781139168632 John Lewis Gaddis, George F. Kennan: An American Life (2011), Goodreads page: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11910982-george-f-kennan Christopher Hill, The changing politics of foreign policy (2003), Goodreads page: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/414234.The_Changing_Politics_of_Foreign_Policy Evan Osnos, Age of Ambition: Chasing Fortune, Truth, and Faith in the New China (2014), Goodreads page: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18490568-age-of-ambition Richard McGregor, The Party: The secret world of China’s communist rulers (2010), Goodreads page: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7822182-the-party

Sep 26, 2020 • 36min

Ep. 57: Foreign interference & the Australia-China relationship; trilaterals; PM Suga; Thai protests

Allan and Darren return once again to the Australia-China relationship to begin today’s episode. The particular topic is foreign interference, in the wake of accusations by the Chinese government that PRC journalists working in Australia had their homes raided by law enforcement in June. Darren characterises this as an instance where a domestic policy action—here a foreign interference investigation—has obvious foreign policy implications, and asks Allan whether in these types of cases the Australian government would brief foreign counterparts, and whether domestic law enforcement agencies might involve DFAT in their decision-making. A recent column by Paul Kelly of The Australian newspaper that is critical of the government’s policy towards China is brought into the conversation. Darren wonders whether it is impossible to have a coherent foreign policy approach towards China when domestic policy actions will inevitably affect the bilateral relationship. For Allan this is a relatively normal situation that all governments have to manage. For the second half of the episode, the conversation begins on the topic of trilateral gatherings, in light of a recent meeting between Australia, India and France, and the possibility of a trilateral with India and Indonesia in the near future. What is the logic of having three countries meet, and what outcomes might follow? Darren asks Allan for his “theory” of trilateralism, and while Allan is reluctant, Darren is happy with his answer! Next, the two discuss the elevation of Suga Yoshihide to Prime Minister of Japan, and how he may contrast with his predecessor despite intending to continue with Abe Shinzo’s policies. And finally, Allan discusses why the protests against the monarchy and military in Thailand are important, despite minimal attention here in Australia. We thank AIIA intern Mitchell McIntosh for his help with research and audio editing and XC Chong for research support. Thanks as always to Rory Stenning for composing our theme music. Relevant Links Stephen Dziedzic and Sean Rubinsztein-Dunlop, “China slams Australian Government for 'blatant irrational behaviour' over foreign interference investigation”, ABC News, 9 September: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09-10/chinese-government-slams-australia-blatant-irrational-over-raids/12647738 Paul Kelly, “Our China relationship needs help before it’s too late”, The Australian, 16 September 2020: https://www.theaustralian.com.au/commentary/our-china-relationship-needs-help-before-its-too-late/news-story/0c37e5bb3480b0d48f55fc935491103b Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, “First Australia-India-France Trilateral Dialogue”, Media Release, 9 September 2020: https://www.dfat.gov.au/news/media-release/first-australia-india-france-trilateral-dialogue Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, “Third India-Australia-Indonesia Trilateral Senior Officials’ Dialogue”, Media Release, 18 December 2019: https://www.dfat.gov.au/news/media/Pages/third-india-australia-indonesia-trilateral-senior-officials-dialogue Patpicha Tanakasempipat and Matthew Tostevin, “Thai protesters challenge monarchy as huge protests escalate”, Sydney Morning Herald, September 2020: https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/thai-protesters-challenge-monarchy-as-huge-protests-escalate-20200920-p55xg9.html PM Scott Morrison interviewed by David Spears on Insiders, 20 September 2020: https://www.abc.net.au/insiders/prime-minister-scott-morrison/12682638 Martin Gurri, The Revolt of the Public and the Crisis of Authority (Goodreads page): https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/22451908-the-revolt-of-the-public-and-the-crisis-of-authority Joseph Nye, Do Morals Matter? Presidents and Foreign Policy from FDR to Trump, Oxford University Press: https://www.belfercenter.org/publication/do-morals-matter-presidents-and-foreign-policy-fdr-trump The Social Dilemma (Netflix): https://www.netflix.com/ie/title/81254224 Ezra Klein, “How technology is designed to bring out the worst in us”, Interview with Tristan Harris, 19 February 2018: https://www.vox.com/technology/2018/2/19/17020310/tristan-harris-facebook-twitter-humane-tech-time Ezra Klein, “You will love this conversation with Jaron Lanier, but I can’t describe it”, Interview with Jaron Lanier, 16 January 2018: https://www.vox.com/2018/1/16/16897738/jaron-lanier-interview

Sep 10, 2020 • 49min

Ep. 56: Aussie journalists depart China (and other bilateral tensions); Foreign Relations Bill; Abe’s legacy; Tony Abbott

Aug 29, 2020 • 35min

Ep. 55: Richard Maude returns (Part 2): China, models of cooperation, & what Australian foreign policy can do

In part two of Richard Maude’s return to the podcast, the conversation begins with China. Was Richard “surprised” by Beijing’s promulgation of the Hong Kong National Security Law? Should the Australian government be updating its priors regarding the level of risk China is willing to take, and would such an updating have any policy consequences? What then about Taiwan? A serious Taiwan contingency would not be a surprise—does it pose the greatest challenge for the new strategic objectives outlined by Prime Minister Morrison in his speech launching Australia’s 2020 Defence Strategic Update? And on the topic of technological decoupling, Darren tries to separate the technical dimensions of the policy challenge from the politics. To what extent are Western concerns simply a matter of a lack of trust, given the tight relationship between Chinese companies and the state? Can anything be done to alleviate these concerns, or is the larger structural force of major power rivalry depriving individual governments of any agency to arrest this trend? The structural forces potentially driving the decoupling phenomenon link up with the next major theme—the future of international cooperation. The term “Five Eyes” has been appearing in the media a lot lately in multiple different contexts—what should we make of this trend? Does the future of international cooperation lie through the filter of trusted security partnerships, and isn’t that a problem for truly global problems like climate change? Finally, the conversation concludes with a focus on Australian foreign policy. How well suited are the traditional instruments of Australia’s power and influence to the present moment? Does our path forward involve simply being the best version of ourselves, or is genuinely creative thinking needed to reform Australian diplomacy? And would there be merit in having a foreign affairs version of the recent Defence Strategic Update? As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj We thank AIIA intern Mitchell McIntosh for research and audio editing, XC Chong for research support and Rory Stenning for composing our theme music. Relevant links Richard Maude’s biography via the Asia Society Policy Institute: https://asiasociety.org/policy-institute/richard-maude Scott Morrison, “Address: Launch of the 2020 Defence Strategic Update”, 1 July 2020: https://www.pm.gov.au/media/address-launch-2020-defence-strategic-update Little Red Podcast, “Trump’s F*** China moment: An attitude, not a strategy”, 1 August 2020: https://omny.fm/shows/the-little-red-podcast/trumps-f-china-moment-an-attitude-not-a-strategy Sinica podcast, “Adam Tooze on the geopolitics of the pandemic”, 6 August 2020: https://supchina.com/podcast/adam-tooze-on-the-geopolitics-of-the-pandemic/ Marise Payne, “Australia and the world in the time of COVID-19”, Speech at the National Security College, ANU, 16 June: https://www.foreignminister.gov.au/minister/marise-payne/speech/australia-and-world-time-covid-19

Aug 23, 2020 • 41min

Ep. 54: Richard Maude returns (Part 1), and Darren in the Beirut Blast

This week Allan and Darren welcome back Richard Maude to the podcast, who returns after his first appearance back in February in Episode 41. Until shortly before that first recording, Richard was Deputy Secretary, Indo-Pacific Group, in the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. Prior to that, he headed the task force responsible for drafting the 2017 Foreign Policy White Paper. From 2013-2016, Richard was Director-General of the Office of National Assessments, and before that he was senior adviser on foreign policy and national security to Prime Minister Julia Gillard. Richard is now at the Asia Society Policy Institute as the inaugural Executive Director, Policy, and Senior Fellow. Before welcoming Richard however, Darren’s big “secret” is revealed, which is that since late 2018 he has been living in Beirut, accompanying his wife Rebekah Grindlay, who is Australia’s Ambassador to Lebanon, and their children. On Tuesday 4th August, Beirut experienced one of the largest non-nuclear explosions in human history, which utterly devastated the city’s port and downtown area. Darren was at home with his family at the time, and tells the story of what happened next, including the extensive damage to the embassy and injuries to Aussie diplomats. It’s a small insight into what a DFAT crisis response looks like in the immediate aftermath of a terrible tragedy. Richard is then welcomed, and what follows is a fascinating deep dive into some of the biggest questions of international affairs today, and what they mean for Australian foreign policy. The conversation was too long to fit into a single episode and so, in this first part, the focus is exclusively on the United States, which as the Australian government says in the recent Defence Strategic Update, remains vital for the security of our region. But can Washington continue to play the role Australia hopes, and needs, it to play? Darren asks both Richard and Allan to highlight what evidence from the Trump presidency, and the country’s COVID-19 response, helps shed light on this broader question. Is America experiencing political decay? Are the strengths that enabled it to win the Cold War now hindrances in competition with China? What does the US need to do well to continue to play a significant role in the region, and what can Australia do to help? Can Canberra perhaps mitigate some of Washington’s weaknesses? Stay tuned for part 2, where the conversation turns to China, new models of international cooperation, and the future of Australian foreign policy. As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj We thank AIIA intern Mitchell McIntosh for research and audio editing and Rory Stenning for composing our theme music. Relevant links Richard Maude’s biography via the Asia Society Policy Institute: https://asiasociety.org/policy-institute/richard-maude Australian Government, “2020 Defence Strategic Update and 2020 Force Structure Plan”, Department of Defence: https://www.defence.gov.au/strategicupdate-2020/ Ross Douthat, “The revolt of the republican strategists”, New York Times, 11 August 2020: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/11/opinion/trump-republicans-lincoln-project.html

Aug 4, 2020 • 48min

Ep. 53: Consulate closures & deteriorating US-China relations; AUSMIN; Defence Strategic Update

Jul 18, 2020 • 53min

Ep. 52: ABC journalist Stephen Dziedzic on reporting Australian foreign policy, media-govt relations, and the Wolverines

Allan and Darren welcome Stephen Dziedzic to the podcast, who covers foreign affairs in the Asia Pacific region for Australia’s national broadcaster, the ABC, based at Parliament House in Canberra. Stephen has spent more than a decade at the ABC, including five years covering federal politics. He also spent two years working for the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade at the Australian High Commission in New Delhi. The way the media covers international affairs and Australian foreign policy has come up several times on the podcast before, and at times Allan and Darren have both expressed their frustration at some of the reporting! Stephen is asked, if not to defend, at least to explain how the media operates in reporting on Australia in the world in the year 2020, and the rationale behind the coverage. After Stephen provides an overview of his career to date and interest in international affairs, Allan begins by asking how the media landscape has changed since the publication of Allan’s book in 2007 (co-authored with Michael Wesley), Making Australian Foreign Policy. To what extent do the traditional media outlets still act as gatekeepers? The conversation moves to some of the ins and outs of covering foreign policy in Canberra, such as government “drops” of major speeches, and dealing with embassies. Allan asks Stephen for his impression of whether DFAT does a good job of selling itself, in light of a recent critique by Dave Sharma MP. Darren looks to zoom out, asking Stephen about the broader media landscape. How much room is there for foreign policy content and what does it mean for a story to be newsworthy? What about variation in coverage—how different is the ABC to the major broadsheets, and what about the tabloids? After his recent brush with tabloid fame, Allan puts to Stephen the critique that editors act like TV “showrunners”, working to ensure that whatever twists the plot takes, it remains faithful to a predetermined overall narrative. Is that critique unfair? Stephen’s thoughtful response covers a lot of ground, including many of the tricky ethical issues involved and the civic responsibilities of journalists. Following on, Darren is particularly interested in the decision to grant anonymity to government leaks. Allan muses about how difficult it is to get ministers to focus on issues of long-term importance, and the immediacy of media coverage creates similar challenges. How can a journalist turn something s/he knows to be important into news, and does social media help or hurt with that? In the final part of the conversation, Darren pivots to domestic politics, and asks specifically about the “Wolverines” group of MPs who take a hard line on China policy. Is there a political logic to their grouping? Allan asks if generational differences may play a role in explaining divides on China policy. The interview concludes on the distinction between “public interest” and “national interest” in an era of growing geopolitical rivalry. As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj We thank AIIA intern Mitchell McIntosh for his help with research and audio editing and Rory Stenning for composing our theme music. Relevant links Stephen Dziedzic’s ABC page: https://www.abc.net.au/news/stephen-dziedzic/166934?nw=0 Dave Sharma, “A diplomatic step-up to match our military step up”, Lowy Interpreter, 13 July 2020: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/diplomatic-step-match-our-military-step Michael Koziol, “'Seriously damaging': ASIO says advice on border security was misrepresented”, Sydney Morning Herald, 18 February 2019: https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/seriously-damaging-asio-says-advice-on-border-security-was-misrepresented-20190218-p50ykq.html

Jul 4, 2020 • 36min

Ep 51: Lowy Poll 2020; India-China; DFAT's travel advice for China; Allan's brush with tabloid fame

As Allan and Darren commence with their next 50 episodes, they begin with the 2020 Lowy Poll. Allan in particular is interested in the rise in Australians saying they do not feel safe, and Darren wonders what impact this will have on public attitudes towards security policy. Meanwhile, Darren is interested whether the poll reflects the sentiments expressed in PM Morrison's "negative globalism" speech last year. Tensions at the Line of Actual Control (LAC) that represents the disputed border between India and China are next on the agenda. While both sides seem to want to deescalate tensions, the question is what the longer term impacts might be. Just as China's recent actions have affected domestic politics inside Australia, Darren wonders whether the deaths of Indian soldiers might push India firmly into the "balancing" column. Moreover, with New Delhi's decision to ban the China-based app Tik-Tok and a number of other Chinese apps, these consequences appear to be extending beyond the military domain. Drama continues to define bilateral relations between Australia and China. Darren opts to focus this week on a recent report from state-owned tabloid the Global Times, which says the Chinese government had uncovered an Australian intelligence operation. These claims were supported by Chinese government spokesperson Zhao Lijian who made note that 'irrefutable evidence' of the operation existed. What might this mean for Australian nationals within China, and how can the Australian government protect its citizens? Darren looks to DFAT's 'smarttraveller' travel advice website for answers, and in doing so discovers a fresh update on Hong Kong, in light of the new national security law being imposed by Beijing. Finally, Darren gives Allan the opportunity to respond to his own appearance in the headlines of certain Australian tabloid newspapers in recent weeks, after he was invited to speak on China to the Labor Party shadow cabinet. While Allan has recovered fully from this brush with infamy, both he and Darren worry about what these events say about the health of Australia's political institutions. We thank incoming AIIA intern Mitchell McIntosh for his help with research and audio editing, and bid farewell to Maddie Gordon with many thanks. Thanks as always to Rory Stenning for composing our theme music. Relevant Links Lowy Poll 2020: https://poll.lowyinstitute.org/ Darren Lim, "A pivot to globalism, but grievances lurk", Lowy Interpreter, 24 June: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/pivot-globalism-grievances-lurk Mohamed Younis, "Americans Want More, Not Less, Immigration for First Time", Gallup, 1 July: https://news.gallup.com/poll/313106/americans-not-less-immigration-first-time.aspx Fan Lingzhi and Yang Sheng, "Australia wages espionage offensive against China: source", Global Times, 29 June: https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1192847.shtml Stephen Dziedzic, "China steps up attacks on Australia, says spying allegations just 'the tip of the iceberg'", ABC News, 30 June: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-30/china-step-up-attacks-on-australia-accuses-government-of-spying/12405842 Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, smartraveller.gov.au, travel advice for China: https://www.smartraveller.gov.au/destinations/asia/china And travel advice for Hong Kong: https://www.smartraveller.gov.au/destinations/asia/hong-kong "Andrew Hastie and 'Wolverines' are 'crossing a line': Former DFAT head" (Dennis Richardson's defence of Allan on Sky News), 24 June: https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6166846553001 Penny Wong, transcript of interview with Patricia Karvelas (ABC Afternoon Briefing), 25 June 2020: https://www.pennywong.com.au/transcripts/abc-news-afternoon-briefing-9/ China Matters website: http://chinamatters.org.au Bob Dylan's 'I Contain Multitudes' discussed on the ABC's The Music Show with Robert Adamson https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/musicshow/dylan-the-new-graces-robert-adamson-candelo-roughandrowdyways/12392030 Letterkenny pilot opening scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rSBmOgpcDE

Jun 24, 2020 • 59min

Frances Adamson, DFAT Secretary, on our 50th episode

On the occasion of the podcast’s 50th episode, Allan and Darren are thrilled to welcome Australia’s most senior diplomat and foreign policy official, Frances Adamson, the Secretary of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, the first woman to hold this appointment. The interview was conducted on Wednesday 17 June 2020. Immediately prior to her appointment as Secretary in August 2016, Frances was International Adviser to Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull. From 2011 to 2015, she was Ambassador to the People's Republic of China, also the first woman appointed to this role. Previously, Frances served in the Australian Consulate-General in Hong Kong in the late 1980s during the early years of China's reform and opening. From 2001 to 2005, she was seconded as Representative to the Australian Commerce and Industry Office in Taipei. She was also posted twice in London, including as Deputy High Commissioner. She was Chief of Staff to the Minister for Foreign Affairs and then the Minister for Defence from 2009 to 2010. The conversation begins with Allan asking about how Frances, and the Department, have been dealing with the Covid-19 crisis, and Darren wonders whether the pandemic is upending the traditional practices of diplomacy. The discussion moves to the 2017 Foreign Policy White Paper – in the time since, has Frances been more surprised by the pace of change, or its direction? Foreign policy elites have arguably been repudiated by recent political developments, such as Brexit and Donald Trump’s election victory. Allan asks Frances for her views on the political forces behind these events, and what the foreign policy establishment in Australia can learn. Zooming out, and noting that the international system is in a state of disequilibrium at the moment, Darren asks Frances to describe how she hopes the order will settle over the next few decades. Referring to Foreign Minister’s Marise Payne’s speech the previous evening, Allan asks Frances for more detail about the audit of Australia’s participation in multilateral organisations that was recently completed. Darren asks specifically about the role of “middle powers” – should they specialise given their resources are limited? The conversation moves to China. With so much material out there, what’s a good entry point for Australians seeking to learn about China, and make sense of the daily barrage of media coverage? What does it mean for both sides to “work harder” to manage the relationship? And Darren asks about the state of debate inside China – are there still live debates about the big questions of international affairs within the Chinese system, and has China made up its mind about Australia? In the final part of the podcast, Darren asks about the balance between generalists and specialists in Australia’s diplomatic corps, and about effective models of work/life balance that Frances has seen in her career. As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj We thank AIIA intern Maddie Gordon for her help with research and audio editing and Rory Stenning for composing our theme music. On this milestone episode, we also extend our heartfelt thanks to all our past interns. Without their help we could never have come this far. Thank you to Stephanie Rowell, Mani Bovell, Charlie Henshall, James Hayne, Isabel Hancock and XC Chong. Relevant links Biography of Ms Frances Adamson: https://www.dfat.gov.au/about-us/our-people/executive/Pages/biography-of-frances-adamson IPAA Podcast, “Getting Australians Home – The unfolding story: Frances Adamson. https://www.ipaa.org.au/getting-australians-home-the-unfolding-story-frances-adamson/ Marise Payne, “Australia and the world in the time of COVID-19”, Speech at the National Security College, ANU, 16 June 2020: https://www.foreignminister.gov.au/minister/marise-payne/speech/australia-and-world-time-covid-19 Evan Osnos, Age of Ambition: Chasing Fortune, Truth and Faith in the New China: https://www.penguin.com.au/books/age-of-ambition-9781448190607 Richard McGregor, The Party: https://www.penguin.com.au/books/the-party-9780141975559 ANU Centre on China in the World, The China Story Yearbook: https://www.thechinastory.org/yearbooks/ China Matters: http://chinamatters.org.au/

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