The McMethod Email Marketing Podcast

Dennis found himself in advertising a few years ago. Working on marketing strategy and branding for Fortune 500’s and Non-Profits. His first foray into business was a web design business which went belly-up. Another web designer suggested “copywriting” might better suit his skillset. Once revealed… …he dove into the deep end with everything direct-response. Then he began searching for a mentor. Years ago he had a martial arts mentor and understood the life-changing value. He’s pretty new to the whole world of freelancing and the digital nomad lifestyle… …and his fresh eyes will reveal the truth, dispel some myths, and give you perspective… …from someone experiencing it in real time. He’s only been a freelance copywriter for a year but he learns fast and has plenty of opinions on what you need to do… …to make it in this marketing game. Dive into this episode now! In this episode, you’ll discover: How to avoid being a sucker while finding and vetting a mentor. Two quick-start reasons you need a mentor now. (Or spend years flailing away in freelance purgatory!) 3 “No-brainer” problems every freelancer (of any kind) is trying to answer every…single…day. (Here are Dennis’ solutions). Why most “digital nomads” are focusing on a completely wrong factor. Change how you decipher true success from mediocrity. A golden nugget of advice about content creation to start luring in the right clients. (Dennis shares 4 mentors he worked with…or continues to work with) Mentioned: Dennis Demori’s website Dennis Demori on Facebook Traffic & Funnels David Allan’s Make Words Pay Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO David Allan: Hey, everybody we’re back with another edition of the podcast, I’m David Allan from makewordspay.com and we have a fellow copywriter on the show today he is a digital nomad he’s relatively new to the lifestyle so he’s gonna be demystifying some of the aspects of what you may think about being a digital nomad here and talk heavily about that Dennis Demori welcome to the show Dennis Demori: What’s happening David, thanks for having me. David Allan: Yeah man, it’s a real pleasure. I’ve sort of just become aware of you in the last maybe six months or so you know we belong to various face group – I’m just gonna merge those words together – Facebook groups together and so forth and you seem to have…be of like mind and you’re relatively new to this whole digital nomad lifestyle so it’s interesting to see some thingsyou’re sharing maybe let’s start like we normally like to do we go back to your origin story where you were before how you found your way into this Machiavellian world of digital marketing and travel and so forth… Dennis Demori: Yeah sure so briefly I grew up in New York and lived all over the US throughout the ears and about five, six years ago I ended up in advertising okay and I work with a number of different clients region could not provost a fortune 500 and in my role at that time I was a brand strategist and it has the comedy cuz they’re pretty creative about the names in the advertising field like and maybe my focus was market research and strategy for our clients but I got kind of sick of it after a while I did it for a few years and then thought okay what’s next and after a a brief failure as a web designer because you gotta feel your first business right sorry laughter after doing that very badly I I found out about copywriting I found out about it from a fellow web designer we mentioned that she had worked with several copywriters and design projects and I was like you know what that is probably a better fit for my skill set and I think there’s better opportunities with that and actually did write some copy when I when I started doing web design because my first client and was my brother versus are with your family nice so I had to read the copy for his website because he sure as hell isn’t gonna do it I just went down the rabbit hole and I found out about direct-response copy a few months later and completely immerse myself in the books and the courses and working with mentors and all that thing so I haven’t been a copywriter for that long it’s only been a little bit over a year mm-hmm when I’ve gone through that initial learning curve very quickly because I just do it right in right the style should took real action yeah that’s been my focus of the full-time copywriter freelance copywriter for the past year and I’ve worked with a lot of different clients from financial publishers KP commerce stores to fitness coaches a little bit of everything… David Allan: okay okay so those first steps you found out about it you started okay that direct-response is the thing what is that about you’d open to some of those classic texts we’ve heard about so many times you also access to mentors maybe talk about that like it was that something that you were just like aware of in your life in general or was that suggested to you or how did that work yeah actually I didn’t have access to an incredible mentor years ago in back in college was in that situation I got into martial arts which is wondering like I wanted to do since I was a kid I think a lot of us guys too right so I did it in college and he was incredible anyone who’s done martial arts no it’s not yeah you get into it learn how to kick somebody’s ass that they do learn about things like discipline and dealing with adversity and challenges learning how to learn like all these types of things that are really important to us so that was my first exposure to it and then fast-forward to this past year or so as I was getting my feet wet and direct response copywriting I keep thinking in terms of time and opportunity costs so you know who’s the best person that I can learn from and that can help me really accelerate my career growth right because if you look at for example professional athletes they’ve always got coaches right does it matter my boudoir doesn’t matter if you work bran or Kobe or whoever even even presidents I know like for example Bill Clinton had had received advice or coaching from Tony Robbins mm-hmm you know so it’s really it doesn’t matter what what profession you’re in or what level you’re at there’s always somebody who knows more than you do can help you we can see things from a different perspective right and and also help you save time because right you’re not going to make any more time and that’s more valuable than money you know that saving the time is the most important thing and getting on the right track as fast as possible so you so the copywriting mentors he’s sought out would how did you vet these people did you like sort of this person’s always talked about or what sort of steps to take well I was a little sneaky about it you know everyone everyone offering coaching or mentoring or consulting today well I would hope has testimonials right Shirley so the video case studies so I can go to their website and find out why I look at who is doing the testimonials and then I just look them up on Facebook and send a message right and say hey I’m thinking about doing this what’s your experience been I think that’s the best way to do it because once you’ve talked to least a handful of people right we start hearing the same thing over and over again like this was good this was not or you know I’d you written it do you recommend it right if you have five people or 10 people who all recommend it that for me is a good sign to move ahead right so that’s what I would do if anyone else was is thinking about working with a mentor or a coach off to the students know and and the mentor should also be transparent about having you talk to the students if they’re kind of like NDA or other people you can talk to them that would be a red flag to me so I give that some extra consideration right was there any mentors in particular you want to give a shout-out to yeah yeah absolutely so the the first one well actually I worked with a few natan all of them unless I forget anybody but I work with Jenny Burress kind of be ER es gens fantastic actually met her alone in LA and she’s a copywriter but she’s shifted I don’t know how her business is split off right now but she does a lot of coaching and horses for freelancers okay she’s great to help you get in to understand how to pitch clients right very good for that so not for copy but for freelance broad ones lying that client acquisition very good and and I also work with Lucas for Chesky right she’s an awesome copywriter and I work with him really to to just get like the the one-on-one on direct response copy Brett to understand that and he’s great then I was also in the trafficking Fellows Program okay welcome Chris Evans they’re very good at the mindset of business right and and and client acquisition and paid traffic and all that mm-hmm and finally I’m work with Jake awkward right now who run reading an academy I’m moving in that direction now that I’ve been praying for the past year and working different clients his whole thing is financial copy working the big financial publishers of Agora right so that is another type of the skillset and angle and copy ready that a lot of people don’t don’t know about so I’m looking to Jake now he’s great he’s no BS he’s he’s through what he’s done things also good teacher awesome awesome that’s great those if it’s a great lineup of people that’s and that’s something I think a lot people we have on the show had in common they had some great mentors and accessed you know to cut that learning curve down it makes a huge difference and I would say if I could pay two things that are really really important to any not just sake writers but freelancers one is or your mentors you know have you never have you never work with a mentor why not because if you can find a good mentor coach they’re gonna save you a ton of time and they’re gonna help you avoid the mistakes and get on the right track and then number two is the environment number two and we’ve talked about it in the beginning of this and this interview with ace groups yes Facebook groups yep but your environment yeah who are you hangin out with you hanging out with go-getters and ambitious people or not so I try to surround myself with the absolutely best people possible right yeah absolutely absolutely is that old saw about your the average of the five people you hang around with the most or whatever however it goes yeah it’s fully true that’s a very powerful idea unto itself all right so you started into the mentorship you were cutting down your learning curve you knew that it was copywriting you wanted to freelance with what were some of these mentors teaching you how to get clients did you try it on your own first how was the what steps did you take there yeah I mentioned four different mentors and or I am working with each one for a specific reason okay so I think that’s the first thing to think about is why do I want to work with this person like I wouldn’t really look for a general coach unless that’s that’s really what you need but I think what happens with most people is that you run into a sticking point right something is not working the way you want it to so that could be like i like i did this proper reading mentorship I needed my focus there was still that position right you know what can I learn here that I’m not gonna learn in or in books or this just gonna help me learn it much faster sure because that’s my primary skill set in my business or with someone else I was working with it was it was pitching like how do you pinch fly it’s old right but that’s something that a lot of people struggle with and a lot of people do but they just don’t know how to do it right we’re in it in a way that’s gonna help them land clients different I mean it’s way too much to cover yeah today when I picked a lot of things from different people so I think with with really any type of freelance business you’re gonna struggle with the same things it’s gonna be one getting better at your craft whether you’re a copywriter or graphic designer what designer whatever right who is client acquisition how do you find clients you know do you do that through Facebook do you use cold emails what do you do and then three is how do you convert them do you have an organized sales process from A to Z that takes somebody from cold and not only anything about you to hang you to work together right and I think that those are probably that I could think three areas that everyone struggles with at one point or another and especially with client acquisition I’ll give you one a good point right now which I picked up from from the traffic and funnels and which i don’t following which is to focus on one platform at a time and I give the same advice for my clients when I’m kind of in a consultative role is I see them trying to do too much and I talked about this on Facebook in my post is everyone’s trying to do a million things at once and you’re looking at Gary Vee and Grant Cardone and all these guys who are huge and okay yeah and they got books podcasts video live streams posts on Facebook event all this you know public speaking events all this stuff right last if you’re new or if maybe you’re in your first year or if you’re not at six figures of revenue I mean whatever it is if you’re still kind of just in the early stage however you define it I think it would be to your benefit to focus on one maybe two platforms at a time so you could you could do for example Facebook and an email list right or maybe Facebook or LinkedIn and then repurpose that content on your blog right just just pick one or two and go deep instead of like wide and shallow right because as I would buy to my clients you want to get famous in your niche mm-hmm right if people don’t know who you are they’re not going to work with you and it seems like it’s such an obvious thing but I can I mean you and I know you’re in the same kind of groups in circle but I guarantee you can probably count the copywriter there’s produced consistent content on Facebook on two hands maybe you name ten people yeah and that’s it I can’t think of that many more and I know a lot of them sure of the ones who are actually out there producing content it’s not many and the reason is I think is because it is a grind it takes time and it takes work to do that and also I think people are lacking confidence yeah it’s really it doesn’t feel good does it feel good when you post something and you get no likes or you know a couple times but for the most part I’ve been fortunate that my stuff has got tons of engagement and there’s a good sign yes so what I’ve dealt with the same type of issues where you’re like I just don’t know people are gonna like this or if they’re gonna read it or am I am I gonna look stupid so I think a lot of people deal with that and just kind of self sabotage themselves and end up doing nothing right just gets stalled oh it is yeah so just gonna read that at that point I think people need to do it do a better job of focusing I think one or two platforms and dominate the hell out of them and get known and that is because finding acquisition is just a big part of it that people struggle with it with with it is why I mention it I focus on one or two areas that you can get really famous in I mean just within the people that could be your customers and that would that’s kind of a key 8020 rule right where should I fill this most Bannerjee you know that is a really helpful tip this does help me quite a bit yeah that is a great tip actually is a great tip so now your your remote you’re able to work off your laptop you’re traveling you’re experiencing this newly created and last year digital lifestyle let’s delve into some 1x I know our audience is you know really interested in that and John of course who started the podcast he himself and myself are both digital nomads let’s delve into that lifestyle start demystify maybe some of the things that people think are true or they have a certain perspective that they haven’t been open up to the other perspectives and you’re fresh at this so you have the best it’s all it’s all new to you let’s just jump in and start telling us some of the things that you you may be thought and have been the demystified in your own excursion I’m just living the dream just retreats it’s not like that at all it’s not in my experience that’s the difference between it for real and how it’s sold yeah well here’s the thing first of all let me let me take a step back doing the phrase digital nomad is very popular and we use it and when we say we we know what we’re talking about like what the other person sure we’re talking about someone who travels and works online basically right right but I don’t like that term and the reason I don’t like it is that with digital nomads I kind of don’t like the nomad part of it and I love travel just as much as anybody else but the problem is when you’re living this kind of nomadic lifestyle you’re not grounded right no it’s really difficult to grow up business when you’re constantly moving every two or three weeks or even every month mm-hmm because you need time to get grounded you need time to be familiar with a city right and just find out basic things that sounds stupid but I’m dealing with it right now is like where’s the grocery store is it like these little things that you don’t think of as issues until they become an issue like filters and so I don’t like that part of it I also don’t like and this is how you and I started talking on Facebook the other day was I’m totally pissed people off by saying this but the digital nomads people in that scene are really just focusing like where’s the cheapest place possible that I can live outside the US that has good Wi-Fi what is mean and that is just a total scarcity mindset because I see nothing to brag about if you’re living somewhere that’s cheap and a dumpy apartment mm-hmm maybe with with roommates I mean yeah we all start everywhere our businesses have to start somewhere and that’s from zero right I think that’s because maybe fine for your period but the goal for everyone should be to grow right to grow personally even grow your business and to get to a point where you don’t have to be in the cheapest place as possible like right now I was just talking to friend last night about visiting him in May and visiting him somewhere that is absolutely not considered a digital Nomad destination and you would never guess what it is mmm I’m thinking of going out to New York that’s nice and working out there working remotely for a month and you never yeah in the different Nomad scene you hear about Chiang Mai you hear about a medi yeah maybe I’ve been hearing about Mexico City and the amount and yeah Vietnam I’ve got a good friend there right now actually and I’m gonna try to visiting this year but I think people just need to take the longer-term view of how can I really maximize my life and how can I set myself up and and I talked about environment before how can I send myself an environment where I can grow my business because if your business is doing its same revenue twelve months later something’s wrong right or if you’re just not hitting your goals something’s wrong or you go like the Chiang Mai if you drop shipping or whatever like you learn by here doing and it’s really going anywhere I mean what the heck are you doing you can’t honestly tell me that you’re leaving that much better in Southeast Asia or in Latin America than you are in your middle-class neighborhood and Dallas or Chicago right because it’s not evil I don’t think you can prepare middle class the u.s. middle class in Latin America or or off East Asia there’s just this is a bit much bigger divide and like SD right now in Mexico see I don’t see too much of what I would call a comfortable comfortable to middle class of us right I see kind of more like working-class for Mexicans here you also have like the very high-end red neighborhood which is really just like choice for many so it’s really it’s an enormous City it’s about nine million people I think which is about twice the size of the way better than that mm-hmm like I would say that there’s maybe three nice neighborhoods there where there’s somebody from the from the West in the US for Australia or UK would would probably consider living and living comfortably right that’s excellent that’s excellent I mean it awesome if people want to get a hold of you Dennis how do they go about it yeah a couple ways one you can check out my website Dennis the more you calm and if you want to connect you’re totally welcome to reach out on Facebook just look me up Dennis the more te mo RI and I’m I was seeing on Facebook at least once a week so I’m pretty easy to find awesome awesome well I think you gave a lot of great information a lot of value was you’re very easy to talk to and interestingly and have a lot of common I’m sure and it’s just uh I think our audience will get a lot of value out of this because I know those people out there and I get daily if not weekly emails from people asking these very questions so here it is folks you know don’t just take it from me take it from someone who’s living it and it’s fresh into it and it seems some of the challenges and some of the rewards and hopefully you know I give you something to think about before you and I wouldn’t agree I mean if this is something you think you want to do you gotta just do it yeah I I’ve always had this this this way of thinking because I’ve lived in several cities around the u.s. you know I don’t know exactly how it’s gonna be your house gonna turn out but if it turns out I don’t like it I can always get go back to go back home the last place other lives and that I found that the more you travel the more you under understand what you want because you’re just to get a little philosophical we’re all kind of a journey of self-discovery right try to figure now what do we want out of life what do we enjoy what do we not want so we can find those things that we really they make us happy as possible and being here like I’ve said this pros and cons at the same time is maybe if we appreciate my life in the u.s. more because you kind of especially was listening to people in the digital nomad community that are a lot of kind of like anti us mm-hmm is that you know the grass is not always greener there there are going to be some things you like but definitely things you don’t know this trip has has kind of opened up my world a bit but at the same time maybe think you know what I do have a pretty good we’re a ran United States and it’s it’s better than I thought so that it tell me with that appreciation awesome awesome man I really want to thank you for coming on the show a lot of fun and for everybody else would back again with another edition of the podcast next week hopefully with somebody as entertaining and delivering as much value it The post Episode #193 – Dennis Demori On Digital Nomad-ism Beyond The Hype appeared first on Drop Dead Copy.

She was pregnant and needed work. Her father wanted to get on podcasts and tasked her with the outreach. One day, he suggested she could offer this as a service. Ever since she’s been a fast-rising star in the podcasting world… …and a real life-saver for myself (David Allan). She helps clients get their house in order so they put their best foot forward. When Ryan Stewman exposed her to his network – things took off. If you’re looking for a fast way to build authority and notoriety in your niche. Find new clients and new opportunities. Expose people to your personality, style and how you think about business… …few channels are better than podcasting. Are you ready for primetime? Check out this episode now. In this episode, you’ll discover: The “damaging admission” she turned into new clients and opportunities. The number one thing Courtney vets so she’s sure a new client is ready to appear on podcasts. One incredible value of podcasts shouldn’t work. (Yet it builds your business faster than anything.) The amazing way Courtney is using her own livestreaming to attract clients. The single most important aspect of Courtney’s success. This one takeaway can change your life today. Mentioned: Zippy Content Courtney Blair on Facebook Ryan Stewman David Allan’s Make Words Pay Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO David Allan: Hey, everybody welcome to another edition of the podcast – I am David Allan from makewordspay.com and we have a very unique guest on today’s show because I can’t remember exactly how I came in contact with her but I’m pretty sure it was because she sent me an email and tried to get somebody else on this show so we’re gonna welcome Courtney Blair onto the show Courtney, how are you? Courtney Blair: I’m good how are you thanks for having me. David Allan: Not a problem not a problem I’ve been looking forward to this one especially now I’m pretty sure that’s how we probably first found out about each other’s Courtney isn’t it you know she’s an expert on getting people on podcasts and I would have to say that you are have been a lifesaver for me in many ways almost unintentionally I would say probably because you know that’s a business that has evolved for you and as a result it’s made my life a whole lot easier because this is one of the podcasts you solicit to get people on and it makes my job a lot easier as someone who solicits people to come on as well so you know people don’t know anything about you you can have a rising star in this world take us back to where you were before podcasting… Courtney Blair: So before podcasting I started doing what I’m doing I started finding podcast interviews about four years ago so before I did that I bounced around new jobs you know I didn’t really know what I wanted to do I just knew that I wanted to work for myself my both my parents are entrepreneurs so I worked for them a bunch and I helped my mom open a couple companies and you know I did some stuff for my dad so I kind of just bounced around I couldn’t really keep a job in the real world because I just you know so I was just Minh to be there I would leave you know and so it’s just one of those things where I kind of always knew that I I needed to be able to run my own schedule and just kind of do things how I wanted to do them so I always worked with the customers you know whatever I was doing and that’s kind of how I I was in sales you know so I kind of I always was a people person and so this on my lap and it was just amazing because I kind of learned that this is like what I’m supposed to be doing you know yeah well and so was it somebody who sort of like we decided podcasting like that sort of erupt like did we listening to podcasts you know where did four years ago almost exactly actually I was pregnant at the time and I couldn’t find a job so I hit my dad up and I was doing some computer work for him just for his company you know right I wrote articles for him periodically and you know I would just do some like minor assistant work it’s so one day he’s like yeah Courtney like I want you to start trying to find me podcast interviews I want I want to I want to go on the podcast to talk about what we’re doing and so I thought it was weird I honestly didn’t listen to podcasts I didn’t I was like what is it a radio show I just had no idea you know I really didn’t know what what a business tool it was I had no idea what was gonna come of it I mean he was paying me hourly you know so this whole thing started off just by chance you know and it was like really lucky that it did so after a couple of years he me and my dad and I were we’re talking about it and he’s like you know this is really something that that you could offer people like people would really pay for this you know so he kind of helped me dial it in and you know I learned how to track the interviews and booking them and you know I really just I’ve started building a network you know of podcasters that I work with and about a year ago I just started reaching out to people asking if they would want to be on podcasts you know so it just sighs just started at the business rather than as an employee you know so in my life changed from there so it’s just kind of it literally just like the universe said here you go Courtney. David Allan: Yeah you’re really good obviously because it’s grown really rapidly from what I’ve gathered just from talking with you here and there and seeing you on other on your own podcast and through other avenues on Facebook and so forth you know was this so you said you reached back out to people that you were already soliciting was there some one person or a couple people that maybe open that spigot for you where your network start to expand you know exponentially yes you know someone who really just changed the game for me in terms of bringing in new clients by being exposed to his network was Brian’s doom and a lot of people have heard of him he’s world and so I met Ryan by the same way I meet everybody just by emailing him my services and you know it was it was really crazy like he just you know he took it immediately and it was something he had been looking for and and you know within the first day of us working together and I found him a bunch of interviews you know so he was kind of shocked and he’s like you know what Courtney I’m gonna expose you to my network and from there it was just a rollercoaster ride like I probably got easily just from knowing him my various shows a couple times and is great yeah yeah it’s yeah you know he does really have a penchant for turning people onto his other people yeah definitely it’s it’s a gift you know and so so there are people you know it’s just been really cool to see what comes from from working with these types of people you know I had no idea who I was gonna be meeting and talking to when I started doing this I just I just started you know and so people to have these conversations with you know such high caliber big people all for my living room is is it’s so real kind of what you’re talking about and that’s something that’s interesting about you because you just you just stated it there you say you just kind of just started and although there’s a lot of people out there and I’ve certainly been guilty of this myself is that you know there’s the planning and the accruing of the information sort of stage and a lot of people really get stuck in that stage where they’re you know they’re almost waiting for a perfect data like launch this whole thing or something and you kind of just started and and sort of the fix that fix the parachute on the way down is is that I feel like a lot of people stress out so much about just starting what they’re doing as an expert you know what I mean like I had no idea what I was doing when I started doing what I was doing and I admitted that to people like I’m just doing this and it’s work you know and so and I think you know like it’s if someone told me you know I just started what doing what I’m doing and you know I’m still learning but it’s amazing like that’s majorly respectable and that makes me want to not only be on board with them but to like help if they need it you know and so if you thought so much about about you know coming coming up against something that they don’t know about and it’s like if you come across something most likely somebody you know knows about it and can help you and that’s like the beauty of the networking aspect of things yeah I think you are right I mean that’s a really important thing you said there it’s like people feel then necessary to like know everything about it and be like super proficient before they even start and like really nobody does it that way who’s been successful also I mean Ryan is a good example of that I mean people go back and listen to Ryan’s episode I mean he’d been to jail he’d worked at a car wash and the mortgage company a bunch of different things and but he was continuing to persist and then when he persisted you know doors opened up for a member ever think was my remember correctly it was like some lady who saw him at the carwash that then hired him for the mortgage companies you know it opens these doors when you’re actually doing things yeah definitely it’s it’s amazing and you know the industry that we’re in is so amazing because everybody who’s podcasting most likely they’re not just a podcaster like they’re doing other amazing things too and by being lined up with these people you’re you’re being lined up with somebody who is like-minded and you know your services probably complement each other you know like there’s just really like it’s amazing it’s really cool so there’s obviously people out there that don’t podcast or that don’t go on podcasts and maybe let’s jump into a few of those things that’s like why podcasting like a book you know it’s been around for a long time now although it seems to be and yet new in many ways to people and and has really taken off in the last few years for sure I remember listen to podcasts you know God maybe as long as eight or nine years ago maybe now I don’t even remember but you know it was just one of those things where it was like a radio show but you know people are now leveraging this massively for their business success and so let’s delve into some of that you know give some people some real idea of like why podcasting so I I think you’re totally right their podcasts aren’t exactly brand new but as a business tool they are you know like people are just realizing all the benefits that come along with with being on a podcast it’s not just having a conversation right like sure it’s great to have a conversation with somebody who is like in the same industry as you and understands what you’re doing but you’re having this conversation you have thousands and thousands of people listening and you’re first and foremost you get the chance to really establish expertise and rapport with them without having to talk to them individually which is so valuable in itself I mean you know people who are in sales go after these people just to establish rapport like targeting on social media you don’t mean and all this stuff and so you go on a podcast and just talk to somebody for an hour and you know really get to prove to everybody that you’re an expert but come along with it are you know you if say you do five podcast interviews per month and you each of these podcasters has anywhere from you know five thousand to two hundred having each of these podcasters sharing your website or your sales funnel or I mean sales funnels are huge cuz leave catcher right so you’re having each of these podcasters share your stuff with the episode that’s so much so much more visibility that that wouldn’t have otherwise been seen just you know just from again just from having a conversation you know so it’s really amazing just those two points alone I could go on all day and I will one thing to that people may not understand at first glance perhaps but certainly as paid off for me and I know it’s paid off for you which is you know for these people that are stuck we mentioned them earlier people who get stuck in the planning and becoming an expert phase podcast is one of those ways where and this almost sounds Machiavellian or something I think but it kind of buys you that expertise right off the hop even if and and it may be detrimental in some ways if you don’t take it that seriously because you know if you go on a podcast with someone you’re seen at the same level and you can sort of borrow if you don’t have any expertise or any sort of you know exposure for your expertise expertise you now seen is the same as the person that you’re either being interviewed by or or interviewing sort of works both ways yeah and as a result I mean if those people out there who feel like they need to do all that sort of you know you can kind of get to that stays very quickly by appearing on a bunch of podcasts and I’ve known some people who’ve done that as like their main lead generation oh yeah you know because it’s because it just kind of pulls you to the forefront where they’re like oh who is this person and you get on some of these bigger shows and man a you know and it’s funny too because when the people come on your show and this is I’m almost hesitant to talk about this because it’s kind of a funny thing but when people come on the show they haven’t I’ve interviewed you know might as my copywriting career is got a long I’ve interviewed it’s like the best of the best copywriters extent and when they come on the show you know even a couple years ago they would say stuff like well I don’t know if this happens when you coach people you know but when I could you know and it was like they assumed that you were doing all the same things that they did and as a result the audience does too so they like just look they’re like they’re like giving you the same level that can backfire because if you can’t deliver then you know there can be problems in that regard but yeah I mean that’s an interesting answer yeah absolutely and that’s what makes our jobs like behind the scenes really important in making sure that the that it’s all lined up the right way you know I mean and that the people that people really are you know maybe it’s well because we get it really is about about shared visibility and leveraging each other’s audiences and expertise like you said you know it really is it’s a beautiful machine it works really well so you know when you’re looking for podcast you know people come to you they want to get on podcasts you know and they’re looking to expand their business or even just I’m assuming probably people come to you’re looking just you know fresh out of the gate looking to start their business in a way yeah you know what sort of what sort of vetting process or what are the things you’re looking for as to make a person that you wanna aside from just taking their you know taking money for your services the kind of vetting processes that so I I’m the one I’m in I’m the one that handles all of the sales and consultations and everything so everybody comes to me so when I when I’m talking to somebody and I we have our call what I’m looking for is that a they’re they’re doing something that’s important you know what I mean and that it’s not just some willy nilly weird message they’re trying to get across and I’m I want them to really be able to benefit from doing podcast interviews you know what I mean like I don’t want them I don’t want to work somebody who just wants to hear themselves talk like I want somebody who aimed and who is they themselves are going to see a change from doing these interviews you know cuz I what it really bothers me when I because I’ve worked with you know there was one point where I was like yeah sure or whatever I’ll take anybody and I would try to find podcast interviews for you know pretty much anyone that came along and what I found from doing that was a lot of times if I just took somebody who just wanted to talk and I I sold it to them as an investment which it is that’s what it is and they didn’t see a room because they had the wrong motives then I felt like I wasn’t doing my job properly you know what I mean when it’s so I make sure of is that that they’re going to see a benefit as well and that we don’t end up in that weird predicament where they’re like I’m doing these interviews and I’m not seeing anything from it you know like if there’s a whole process behind it oh yeah that’s kind of what I figured and it’s and for us I mean when I look at people’s businesses they come to me for my expertise and I say to them you know I can just tell that you’re not ready I mean even if we were to generate a bunch of leads for you or we’re gonna punch up your copy to where it’s good so you know can you handle any of this stuff you know can you actually like send a hundred leads to can you actually process those leads and turn them into something and I imagine it’s like you have a little system set up I mean you’re not the one grading over the system that’s something to think advantage of yeah you know so and yet yep you’re exactly right that’s exactly so that’s what I look for when I’m when I’m bringing someone on for the first time now as it turns out you’re now sort of as you are today here appearing on the show you are now becoming your own client if you will and you started your own from what I’ve gathered anyway is it correct me if I’m wrong I mean you’ve started your own podcast I’ve seen some live streaming videos of you being interviewed interviewing people is that now the suppose that you sort of taking your own medicine yeah I’m actually doing it what I’m doing is a Facebook live show so as I’m doing these podcast interviews typically we couldn’t couldn’t do today because the Wi-Fi connection but typically I’m also live at the same time while we’re recording so people can see the interview going down so some my my idea is that the people that I work with my future clients on social media will see who I’m working with and see them interview me and what it’s like to be on their show and want to be on their show so that’s really what’s going on yes so I really you know I want people to know that like what were the people that were working with are amazing and it’s also cool because I get to have conversations with each of the podcasters and thanked them personally and you know really just get to know them a little bit so it’s really I’m kind of hitting it from both sides I think that’s very smart because you are you forging it I mean aside from the outreach that you’re become so good at and pitching various people you have his clients to the various podcasts you know when you do do something like that and you’re opening up that visual aspect as well to which you don’t get a lot from podcasting it indeed is a relationship for you with with the person you’re marketing people to and also really get to see maybe they’re maybe if they haven’t considered podcast before now they now not only can hear about it but they can actually see the way it goes down exactly and you know it is the other half of it is that I am taking my own medicine too and you know what I mean this goes from here you know because I do believe so so much in my and what we’re doing in the podcasting industry and using it as a marketing tool and so I’m so excited that I actually get to do this for myself now oh and because I wasn’t ready for the exposure back when I you know ate this over this last year like my team and I were so so so dialing in the just the internal operations you know that if I had tried to pursue the visibility side back then I would you know I didn’t know if we would have made it if we would have imploded you know because we were growing so much organically just from working with Ryan Suman and him making a couple posts about me and just other people sending me their clients and you know what I mean so there was so much organic growth right I was truly afraid in place that can really be a big problem that can brew in your reputation or you know you word gets out that you can handle it or you know just a lot of problems that are unnecessary if you’re ready to accept it exactly what my team we’re all we’ve got this thing just rocking and rolling now so we’re just ready we’re scaling scaling scaling we’re ready to go yeah one of the things that I’ve and I don’t know if you guys do this now or not because I sort of had this relationship you with you for a while now I contacting get on the email marketing podcast and so maybe this is something you guys do but I’m you know just because the way it’s sort of done now for my end since the start I’ve sort of seen it grow but like one of the big things for me when people you know haven’t used your service but pitch themselves to us after John and I at the at the email marketing podcast ah you know there if we go back I shudder remember the guys name off the top of my head because they must Kurt Elster if people go back and look at that Kurt Elster’s episode of the podcast they’ll see at the very beginning I think I mentioned that he had come like uber prepared like he had this one sheet you know for that he’d sent me where it was laid out I really was just a link to his website where he had the one she posted and sort of laid out possible questions I could have asked all his bio the way he wanted it said which is really important if you’re a person going you know all those kind of things so is that something you offer people now to get their houses that’s something that we do right off the bat you know so when I when I bring somebody in I send them an intake form right away and that kind of gathers all the information that I need that I mean would be on a one sheet and we put it into a really pretty email template you know what I mean so I don’t like to make it um super frou-frou and you know what I mean I like to keep it short and simple I think people you know there’s there’s a really important you have to really think about things in terms of psychology with who you’re emailing you know I don’t want I don’t want to you know bog somebody’s email down with it with a five paragraph bio and you know and all their stuff searched through all these links and you know what I mean so that’s something we do right away is just make it to where it’s really user friendly and readable to the podcaster yes I think it’s important too because it’s like you know if I have to talk about them and I got to do my own research with somebody who’s hosting a podcast and I have to bone out on these people you know it makes it so much easier if there’s just something you know quick and easy and well-written so I can talk about them in the way it’s important to talk about them in the way they want to be talked about like perhaps they want to be referred to in a certain way you know maybe you know it’s for the classic example is you know nobody wants to be called a janitor they wanna be called a sanitation engineer or something you know and so this is the same idea and yeah I really appreciate has been people since and your company now that hits me up and gives me those type of things so that’s another reason why I think people out there who are podcasting they’re just listing right now maybe they’re considering it that’s another thing that really is awesome is like you get to work on exactly how you’re presented so yeah that really helps with your branding mm-hmm we’ve booked an appointment we can talk we’ll get this figured out that is awesome that is awesome I think you’re doing something fantastic I mean this is a very much an outside-the-box type service it seems very simple and obvious once you sort of think about it but it’s see if but nobody really I mean there’s probably other people out there doing this I guess but I’d never come in contact with them and you’re certainly a pioneer of sorts I think in this regard because you’ve turned this into a business and yet everyone who does podcast is kind of staring you staring them in the face you know I appreciate that so much that definitely means a lot there there are so there are other people out there doing this not many but yeah it feels great to be on the ground floor and to get to know so many people and you know it’s you thank you you’re amazing I appreciate you accepting so many of our guest suggestions I mean we wouldn’t be able to do it without having such a such a sturdy rock-solid network you know so where we will do without you well it’s you know such a pleasure to work with people who get it obviously and bring to you I mean you just make it easy you know anyone out there who’s gonna listen to this and is thinking working with Corey and her people to get onto this podcast I will say this you know unabashedly she is fantastic the way they approach you they’re very you know it’s a very easy thing to get involved with they bring the type of people you want on your podcast right to your door it’s made my life on Hawaii I feel like I’m almost cheating the system because he brought so many people to make that and but she’s just so much fun to work with she’s prompt she’s professional and I would give her you know eleven out of ten for what she’s doing and I think it’s a big big things thank you so much that means so when you’re making future working with you yes thank you so much for taking the time to come out do this and you know share your insights and your and your path your journey with our audience I think a lot to be learned especially about just taking some fucking action basically thank you so much for having me just wonderful I appreciate it awesome and for everybody else we’ll be back again with another edition of the podcast next week we’ll hopefully somebody who is as as motivated and professional as Courtney The post Episode #192 – Courtney Blair On Business Building Secrets From A Podcast Queen appeared first on Drop Dead Copy.

Kevin Rogers is a fellow performer. For the better part of 10 years, he was a hardcore standup comedian making his living on the road. Looking into the future, he saw older comedians who hadn’t “made it” and decided to shift gears. With the help of a close friend, he found the world of copywriting. Another comedian friend was also a little ahead of him on the very same path. His first “sales letter” was a mocking treatise for a self-pleasuring device. His friend told him it was better than 70% of the copy he came across. From finding his first clients to advice he received from copywriting legends… …this episode delivers the goods and may re-shape the way you’re molding your copy career Dive in and listen now. In this episode, you’ll discover: What are the top mistakes Kevin hears from the client side of the copywriting business. Kevin’s best piece of advice for every copywriter entering the field. (The two-part process for standing out.) The “slippery banana syndrome” of the early stages of your copy career. How Kevin brought his focus in tight and his copy done. HThe number one mistake people considering a copy career make. (It has nothing to do with getting good at copy.) Kevin learned faster and escaped impostor syndrome with THIS advice from two legends. Mentioned: Copy Cheif Community Kevin’s Podcasts John Carlton David Allan’s Make Words Pay Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO David Allan: Hey everybody, we’re back for another edition of the podcast I’m David Allan from makewordspay.com – we have a very special guest today on the show, someone I’ve been looking forward to talking to for a long time he is a copywriter or a freelancer – you know mentors other copywriters he has a wildly successful forum and stuff for copywriters that you may already be guessing who I’m talking about he’s also a stand-up comedian… Kevin Rogers welcome to the show. Kevin Rogers: Thanks for having me brother, I’m looking forward to the conversation David Allan: Yeah it’s been good I’ve we have some interesting things in common including when I started my own podcasts that I did called Takeover Tuesday and you started the Truth in Marketing podcast I believe we were using the same music – by some weird we’ve been gone looking for the same royalty-free music Kevin Rogers: Right, exactly funny they think one of us is that’s a cool they picture us in there like conducting the band David Allan: So let’s let’s go back maybe you know I’m sure a lot of people you know know maybe a little few things about you for those who are completely brand-new let’s go back to your sort of superhero origin story you know how did you get into all this marketing stuff. Kevin Rogers: Yeah well it’s a pretty long and sordid tale so I’ll I’ll give you the highlight reel it’s you know I was a confused young teenagers I think we’re all supposed to be but you know 17 my kids 14 now and like other parents of kids his age are mapping out their entire professional lives you know it’s this all this pressure to know exactly what they want to do with the rest is crazy so yeah 18 and to win like deadbeat jobs and not really you know know what to do but love comedy and so I ended up on on stage and an open mic night and Wow is he a hooked man within five minutes it’s funny Dave you know like you’re a performer when people tell me they you know I’ve been thinking about doing stand-up I’m like well you have to now like you you’re obligated to yourself and potentially the world of comedy and entertainment to go find out if there’s something there right because it’s not a normal thing for somebody to want to do this actually right it’s been fear in the world just any public speaking let alone gun everybody I’m hilarious you’re not gonna believe what I’m about to say you know you gotta be a weirdo and so it’s if it’s for you though it’s like this you know you change on a cellular level the second you you walk off stage and can breathe again the first time and that’s what happened to me and yeah so that was it man you know ended up figuring out how to get rode gigs and spent almost ten years on the road probably seven like hardcore traveling that was how I made my living took a shot at ya sitcom riding out in LA and some different stuff that I didn’t end up loving like I thought I would and and then you know decided I had to get off there I really just burned out man I just couldn’t couldn’t stand up in front of you know 24 you know southern southerners there Warner Robins Georgia you’re going yes it was pretty good be funny not feeling the inspiration here so uh I you know what do you do then it’s like I didn’t also didn’t want to become god bless them you know there’s there’s there’s guys that scared me for my future when I back then you know cuz cuz I’m seeing them in their 50s and right I mean it can kill the room and they’re solid club headliners but you’re like I don’t know if you’re ever gonna get that break you know and I was like I man if I hit like if I’m approaching 30 and nothing’s happening I gotta think this over you know and it’s kind of what happened it’s like I tried some different avenues and I’m like I don’t know how this works like how do I get how do I get in control of this I couldn’t see that right because I didn’t understand business certainly didn’t know anything about marketing so did a bunch of like no resume jobs bartending and in in Belle hopping and through some miraculous you know kismet found this copywriting thing and discovered Wow hey a lot of those instincts that serve to me as a comic can work here as well and fumbled my way through the process of getting those early clients and you know made a go of it and it’s been amazing yeah you know when you’re looking back at the you know when’s the first time you really heard about copywriting when somebody actually said that word or you he thought what is that her totally yeah I remember clearly because I thought it was the dumbest thing I’d ever seen right like a friend of mine named Chris Tomasulo he’s kind of known in the industry yeah yeah yo doc sulo a really brilliant guy and that was sort of the amazing thing that happened was I was working for an old comic friend of mine who was running you know timeshare resale company you know basically a shady as it sounds although he was trying to do it right until the crack took over but that was another story but so he hired Chris came in to consult and Chris’s a master of inbound telephone sales you know but I was learning a lot from Chris and really liked him and he knew I loved to write and so he’s like you know you should try you should look at copywriting the hell does that mean and he showed me a sales letter and I was like it was one of those like you know nineties you know early 2000 sales that is where it was like purposely really ugly and and I’m just like honestly I was like if somebody sent me this I would immediately mark it as spam you know like it but but then he started explaining the the persuasion behind it and why it was ugly and and how it and I was like I started getting really interested then he turned me on to so it’s a Halbert and Carlton and I started reading there their blogs and I was like now it was like electricity at that point it’s the hope so as I studied it then it was the big problem of how do I get someone to pay me for this find out if I’m good enough to get paid right right that becomes the next problem absolutely so what were those first steps like did was Chris giving you you know ideas or were you looking around or out of yeah Chris was helping me discover that I might actually have some I’ll tell you what’s funny is the first thing I ever wrote was I was mocking copy because I I was just kind of being a smartass and I wrote this and I read a few letters in thought I get this whole thing and my instinct is as I guess a comedic thinker was to write satire right right right and so I wrote like half of sales letter about the in my mind the product was I don’t know mature audience is like I don’t know how to even say this without no go for it being disgusting but the big joke was going to be the product was you know a device that helps you blow yourself okay you might want to edit that in some way or am I not but to me it was just funny like like how do you build up to this right and it was all about you know it was discovered this ancient art of self-gratification was discovered in in a in a cave atching you know and and I’m just like cracking myself up writing this thing right and I show it to Chris and he goes look he goes he goes I know you’re being a smartass but this is actually pretty good he’s like this is probably better than like 70% of the copy I sees I’ve seen it you need to maybe like seriously think about you know yeah that’s good so yeah so then the other amazing I guess you know if you look back it’s like amazing things happen when you’re supposed to be on a certain path right right so then I found out through a weird email chain letter among cold comedy friends that of comic my name VIN montello was studying that Masterson course okay and I was like why you know what are the chances so I start talking a VIN and VIN was like just starting to get his first clients and so he was actually really instrumental in me figuring out how to you know respond to certain you know job requests there was a forum back then called the copywriting board or the copywriters board okay written by a run by Michel Fortin and that was a great board that’s kind of the inspiration one of the inspirations for copy chief hey cuz that went away and then there was just like the warrior forum and all these cesspools you know yeah so then my very first gig was the guy post that he wanted an autoresponder series and I was still really new to the whole marketing side of it you know and especially like digital marketing and so guys like I need an autoresponder series and if you’ve you know you send me some samples so I so VIN goes here’s what to do he’s like he’s like tell the guy write to him and tell him you’ll eat normally it’s a hundred an email but you’ll do all five for 300 as a package deal I go okay great I’ll do it I go by the way what’s an autoresponder what does that even mean to me so the guy and that had to write one you know mm-hmm so I literally sat on my kitchen table and in wrote one about a golf product and the funny thing is did I don’t golf you know I’ve gone flike twice in my life I don’t like it I’m not interested in it but I don’t maybe cuz I was studying Carlton and I know Carlton wrote like golf ads no I got that seems interesting enough to write about so I sent it to the guy and I get the gig you know and it was funny was he wrote to me he said you know some other people were had lower prices than you he’s like but I can tell you know what you’re doing so I learned a lot of that like one is like just go for it even if you really don’t know what you’re doing it you know if you care about doing good work it’ll probably work out okay and the other thing is like have somebody watching your back you know like I you know if I wouldn’t have known that I then could check my work I don’t think I would have had the confidence to even put myself out for the gig right right so you know it’s it’s a tricky thing with freelancing it’s like you don’t need to wait around forever for some magic power to anoint you that you’re ready you also don’t want to promise something you know you can’t deliver so but you know if you have a mentor and you have some backup in some people around you who can help guide you then you can definitely get a head start a lot faster absolutely that’s very good very good advice so now you are a mentor for copy writers and copy chief has taken off and become a real valuable and favorite resource from many up-and-coming copywriters let’s delve into some of the pitfalls and stuff of the freelancer like you said you just listed off stuff like maybe imposter syndrome where oh yeah you know getting here getting your first clients and stuff like whatever yeah I’m sure much like when I take a look at people’s copy and critique it and stuff this is usually the same mistakes that are being made over and over again is that the case with relaxed copywriters and and what do they what do they screw up huh you meet from the writing from the getting into it part and then yeah well I guess on the writing part we can we keep going forever you know with some of the beginner mistakes but I think yeah some of it is like I think well let’s just let me just say what I know helps right because I guess I’ve coached a lot of freelancers now I would say the the best thing you can do for yourself when you’re starting out is just saw– specialize and I know people say this but not just in a certain niche but decide like what do you want to write what’s you enjoy writing what do you feel particularly good at write so well I’ll tell you one mistake I see is people will come to me sometimes and say okay hey you help me figure out how to get some clients and I’m like sure so let’s talk about what do you like to write and who’s been your best client or and they’re like oh now I haven’t written anything yet I just you know I read this book and they’re my man and I come on like so the number one thing is the copywriting will not solve your financial conundrum right they forget that you’ll you’ll ruin your reputation you’ll screw over some clients even if you you don’t mean to like your number one goal is not how do I make a living at this your number one goal is how do I get damn good at this right and again I I see some people who are already good floundering with their confidence and not getting paid what they’re worth and and those things too but that’s better and certainly more fixable than the other problem which is I don’t never have no idea what I’m doing and I’m just out trying to hustle money for for it you know so and I’ll tell you that that is the biggest problem I hear from the client side too is it’s really hard for them to know who to trust and even simple things like you know just because they talk a good game on the phone like you know vet their samples make sure they’re actually their samples like make you know and talk to some of their past clients and make sure they didn’t flake on the gig and you know so those are the biggest problems I hear is like they get the voice all wrong they they miss deadlines or they ghost completely right just terrible stuff where it makes it so much harder for the people who are are talented and want to do good work so you know like – yeah definitely don’t look at a copywriting as the the quick fix to your money troubles I tell people if they’re like you know like I’m launching my my course right now fit for the fur it used to be just private one-on-one and it was really expensive now it’s 10% of that price just for the curriculum which I still do live right but even now people come to me and they’re like hey if I take your course can I can I be getting how much do you think I can be getting next month and I’m like don’t take the course I don’t you know you’re just you’re looking at this all wrong it’s a foundation on which you can build a career but you got to be committed to the long haul of this I’ve seen it happen in three months for people I’ve seen it take three years you know it absolutely is not a I don’t know what to do go figure out Facebook AdWords or something like that don’t don’t try to you know put people’s whole career in your hands for how you’re gonna represent them in a sales letter it’s you’re not ready so what should be what’s what a you know maybe top two or three things that people should be doing everyday if they’re there so they’re gonna play the long game if they’re gonna get better at this what what are the top things they should be doing every day they should be yeah breaking down ads you know like really studying like like hand copying is cool for me not for the reason it is good to the whole rote learning thing of you know I’ll move my hand in this way and it’ll see her into my brain what could copy looks and feels like however I wrote to Gary Pennsylvania when I was new in this business and shockingly he wrote back and I’ve basically asked him I was like look you you and you’re on Carlton are the only people who I literally had a visceral reaction to your copy you know and and I said I just have to I so desperately want to understand how you’re doing that is I said to him is like is it an LP like what am i what am i experiencing that would make me feel that way you know yeah and he said the truth is you you have to really believe in the product right if you really believe in what you’re writing about then it’s it’s not hard all you’re feeling is my enthusiasm channeled you know obviously there’s there’s some persuasion things in place but it’s not trickery you know it’s it’s genuine enthusiasm he said and he said the if you want to get good my best advice is read of control at every day in and he said don’t just read it he said but then ask yourself what is one thing I might change about this ad that I think would make it convert even better and that was so huge to me because I realized and then the John Carlton who became a friend and mentor later really solidified this to me it’s like really what you’re getting paid for is the ability to is jumping is calls it critical think about the offer about the avatar well you know the relationship the emotions it’s the thinking where we really earn our money in and so if you start developing that early that’s the thing that’s gonna set you apart right right look here’s what makes a copywriter great it’s it’s not that we all have access to the same case studies and information and formulas and all those things right it’s what is that thing you’re gonna bring to it that nobody else on the planet could because you happen to be interested in in this part this particular science or human evolution or you know like you know ten different writers can all have the exact same product research but they’re all gonna come up with different big ideas and hooks because they all have this unique DNA and the set of experiences and it’s the combining of those two factors that create the magic right so you know think critically you know get to get really good at research but don’t ignore your other interest and your freaky little habits and fetishes that you know bring those other elements into it and you combine those two and that’s where the great ideas happen because honestly you know if you’re good at nothing but coming up with great big ideas and understanding how to sell those and in a sales letter even if you’re not the greatest writer you’ll have a great career in this business they they will they will put other writers around you you know what I’m saying it’s the ideas that are that the rare commodity in this business right that’s very very good advice for a good advice and now you mentioned of course that John Carlton became a mentor and a friend to you did you reach out to him and forge that relationship or how did that works I know a lot of people out there are probably also afraid to reach out to some of these people who share a hold in high esteem yeah yeah it’s interesting it is scary especially when you’re not sure what you want from them right and so the reason John and I is relationship if all the way it did I think is because first of all something about John just really resonated with me and I had this weird problem early in my career and it got it must be so much worse for freelancers now which is you know I had I had information overwhelmed but there’s a certain like patch of development in a freelance copywriters career where you’re you’re good enough to get paid and get gigs but you’re also learning so much and when you’re actually doing the work when you read something that opens up your mind in a new way you really want to implement it like immediately right and so a few times I was being in the middle of a sales letter and I’d read something on like clay make pieces blog back when it was active or on the that forum or somewhere and it would be so revolutionary to me I go man if I don’t stop Fred I have to start this letter over or I’m not giving the client everything I’ve got you know and but then eventually I was like I gotta I gotta quit this like this is overwhelming so I said here’s what I’m gonna do I’m gonna I’m gonna only follow one one great you know because my my thing was if I could get as good as one of the grades I mean like even a half as good we take me probably years but that would be good enough to have a great career right and feel in control of this thing and so I said I’m gonna choose one and I’m shutting out everything else off like I’m just um because I want to get to know their thinking and their process so well that it would literally like they’re sitting next to me at the computer and when I come to a crossroads and the copy I could turn to them and say what would you do right here and literally know exactly what they would advise me right and so for me I chose Carleton it was an easy choice because again he was he was my guy he just I loved how he wrote and how he talked about the subject matter he chose and so I just studied the guy to death and I was so obsessed with with him in his work in his wisdom I used to drive around back and forth to my job listening to his kick-ass comedy kick-ass copywriting his secrets you know audio over and over and over and so when I actually finally got in front of him and reached out to him I felt like I had earned his attention not not just because I put that that obsessed on him but the one other thing I did was I waited for an opportunity to earn his attention and so he had a form and he used to do critiques and he was gonna be out of town and he said hey what why don’t you one of you hotshots take over the critique for me this week and you know show us your stuff and I was like ah this is what I’ve been waiting for right I took the critique and I you know III think I did a screen cap I must have done it like three times you know like just I can get it better better really put a lot of work into it and posted it up because I knew that John would have to watch this to make sure I’m not giving crazy ass advice you know right and so John wrote to me privately and he’s like hey I just wanna I wanted to thank you you know you did a really good job and I critique and he’s like you know let me know how I can return the favor I was like finally so I said I said your honor I just want one thing from you I could you look at my some of my copy cuz I totally had impostor syndrome at this point you know I was exactly at that place where it’s like am I even should I even be taking this money like do I know what I’m doing and it’s so he read my stuff and he said you know yeah clearly you’re still kind of new but you’ve got great instincts your writings good and he said you know overall I can tell you you’ve got the goods and once I heard that I was like good night everybody you know no more imposter sin come from yeah I just felt and uh and then from there we we just kept talking and developed a friendship that’s lasted jeez 10 years now so it’s been amazing awesome if people want to get a hold of you they won’t get involved with you you have copy chief and your coaching program and stuff where should people go after they get involved yeah just go to copy chief dot-com and you know if your first visit there you’ll probably see an offer to get on the waitlist that means that we open to new members about once a month and you know until then you can enjoy the you know the podcast are there on the site and you know tons of great articles we focus a lot on story and and all that kind of stuff and copy so yeah I’d appreciate you coming by and I think you’ll dig it awesome I really want to thank you for coming on the show Kevin it’s long overdue I think and it’s been this hours just flown by and I just want to extend my gratitude for taking the time out for our audience thanks man I really enjoyed it and for everybody else hopefully we’ll be back again and we will be back again with another edition of the podcast next week hopefully with someone as insightful as Kevin The post Episode #191 – Kevin Rogers On Your Path To Freelance Success. Simple Ideas To Get Out Of Your Own Way appeared first on Drop Dead Copy.

John started in real estate. Unfortunately, they were no longer doing in-house sales training. In the end, he felt he didn’t have the personality for face-to-face sales… ..so he found a different way to make an impact. Writing lead generating direct response ads. When hundreds of leads flowed in… …so many they almost couldn’t handle them… …he knew this was the life for him. At Gary Halbert’s urging, John put out his shingle. His simple and effective methods for getting copywriting clients kickstarted his career. They will kickstart yours, too. Or revive a copy career on life support! Listen as he details some of the most straightforward ideas you will ever stumble across. Now take action. In this episode, you’ll discover: The one thing you should do before trying to secure your first client. Were he to go back in time, he’d use this technique to guard against the down years and prevent the roller-coaster! If you know this one fact about direct response businesses, you’ll never go hungry again. (Nor will your kids!) The “newsletter” technique John used before he had a swipe file. One daily practice which will have have your client calendar bursting at the seams. (It only takes a few minutes!) Mentioned: John “Angel” Copywriting John took THIS Gary Halbert advice The best copy course John ever took! David Allan’s Make Words Pay Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO David Allan: Hey, everybody, welcome to another edition of the podcast- I’m David Allan from makewordspay.com – We’re back with another exciting guest – today’s guest I’ve heard about for many years…took one of his courses four or five years ago and was one of the things that opened my eyes to some very specific skill sets and he’s going to talk aboiut that today and he’s going to talk about some client getting strategies…John Anghelache welcome to the show… John Anghelache: Hey, Dave, thank you, I appreciate it. David Allan: You’re a person I’ve heard about – years ago – I guess beacause I got into it through Gary Halbert, John Carlton, people like that, your name was sort of always floating around…I heard David Garfinkel talk about you a bit and then I haven’t heatrd much, you know, for a few years – perhaps you’ve been keeping a low profile, at least from me…so maybe take us back and how you got into copywriting and your super hero origin story as we like to call it. The post Episode #190 – John Anghelache On 3 Steps To Supercharge Your Copywriting Career In The Next 30 Days appeared first on Drop Dead Copy.

Jesse Elder was a martial arts practitioner and gym owner. When he was a part of underground no-rules “fight-clubs”… …he saw Mike Tyson’s quote come to life. “Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.” Theory fell away and only the result-producing strategies survived. Anyone that started watching the Ultimate Fighting Championship in its infancy… …saw this same scenario play out with gruesome results. Mystical martial art practitioners dispatched in short order. Jesse talks about the “5 Freedoms” and how to live into them. His year of living a nomadic lifestyle running his business and life with 3 simple things. He never spent more than 8 days in a single place for over 95% of 2017. He details the difference between your business and life goals and who you are. Why you need to live life on your own terms and how to deal with what other people say to you. I know you will love this episode because we talked about issues that have affected everyone. Saddle up. In this episode, you’ll discover: Jesse’s open and simple “WIFI” approach to life. The “can’t lose” secrets of the real laws of attraction. (No woo-woo here!) Do you feel like an impostor? Jesse’s detailed strategies will knock it out. How to spot misleading “borrowed objectives.” How to avoid the most common and costly success mistakes and find your own “frequency.” Mentioned: Jesse’s website Jesse’s Facebook Jesse’s YouTube channel David Allan’s Make Words Pay Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO David Allan: Hey, everybody, we’re back with another edition of the podcast. I’m David Allan from makewordspay.com and we’re here with another exciting guest today. He likes to be called an action philosopher he’s gonna have a lot of great ideas for all you freelancers – freelance copywriters, maybe freelance web designers I know there’s a bunch of different people who listen to the show who also want to get nomadic – they want to get out there and this is the perfect guest for that stuff because like myself he’s been a nomad for a long time he’s been all over the place and he’s primarily concentrated on you know the thinking aspect they’re getting into the right mindset… Jesse Elder welcome to the show. Jesse Elder: Thanks, Dave good to be here man. David Allan: Great to have you man you know I’ve heard your name in passing you know now and again here and there and I’ve read you know some your stuff listen to a few the other podcasts you’ve been on I really like what you’re doing I really like your philosophy and you mentioned it off the air before we started which is to take some fucking action let’s start with your own that’s something I really don’t know let’s go back to the beginning where were you and how did you get into all this? Jesse Elder: Completely accidentally and something that just blows my mind to this day, like I literally wake up now and I’m like how did this happen like how did this lifestyle emerge and I’m just so appreciative of all you know the mentors and the coaches and just the influences that I’ve had in my life and I’m almost a five I grew up in South Texas I was home-schooled so I didn’t really have much of a of a you know traditional social life traditional upbringing when I was nine nine years old I got into martial arts and man that changed everything and just gave me an outlet it gave me a challenge and then that formed a lot of my early experiences you know I started you know I was one of those kids helping out in class when I was 13 14 years old and by the time I was 15 I was teaching class and then when I was 17 I told my parents this is what I want to do for the rest of my life and they’re like thumbs up we’re sure you can do it so yeah I mean I just I’ve never taken a test you know like I’m like a school test I got my driver’s license that was the extent of my state-sponsored education it just it’s just been an interesting path you know I open my my really opened my eyes to to helping people and and how that was just such a vehicle for helping me through some tough times you know emotionally and mentally and financially and physically and you know just teaching was always the thing that there seemed to at times is the only thing that made me feel better you know was just kind of sharing some things that I’ve learned and and and so going through that martial arts experience and when I was you know my early 20s I was doing these underground like Fight Club type things where there’s no rules no weight limit no safety equipment no time limit is two two guys get in there and just fight and it was very formative experience because it really taught me the difference between theory and results and I just watched so many guys who are like you know these guys are classically trained very intelligent martial artists but they step into the chaos of the ring and that theory goes away super fast like within six seconds right and and it really taught me a lesson and it stuck with me you know that and any Theory sounds great any philosophy whether it’s you know illogical and spiritual or whether it’s relating to your body and biohacking and all theory sounds awesome what’s the actual result and unless it moves the needle in a way that I can measure in a way that actually changes your life is it worth exploring anymore so I’ve just been I’ve just been split testing paradigms aggressively since I was 18 or ways to rapidly calibrate and just surf the changes that we’re going through on the planet right now awesome man that’s early that’s a real cool story I know exactly what you’re talking about because those people who listen to the show regularly they know I also perform magic and I Street perform mm-hmm you just said so resonates with me personally because in that arena much like the Fight Club style things you just mentioned I mean that’s where the it’s where the rubber meets the road you know it’s just like actually work and you know in my case are people in your case maybe are people actually knocked out or whatever in my case are people entertained and yeah you know become new friends of yours and and and hopefully be funny or whatever the end result this right yeah right it’s a fascinating thing how those things sort of just all these things that people talk about often just sort of fall away and you start to get a real education completely man I just got chills when you said that like that it is it is that that binary reality that only performers understand you know the comedian gets onstage people either laugh or they are there crickets you know the entrepreneur either creates value that’s rewarded in the marketplace or they don’t in in relationships you know you’re either deepening the intimacy in connection with the love of your life or loves of your life whoever and however that plays out or your warrior you’ve got this inertia going you’re just kind of you know like settling in there is nothing in life standstill so I love what you said that about being a performer and getting feedback and it’s a very exciting way to live it’s not for everybody because it requires 100% personal responsibility a lot of people don’t don’t seem to enjoy yeah that is that is so true now for the people out here they’re listening to this that I interact with on a daily basis and listen to the show I know we have a lot of people who would like to get mobile or let’s be patient earlier and you know it’s just it’s such this is a yet another one of these type things where you know for me personally and perhaps you could speak to this more in a second to like I almost had like an epiphany you know I made the jump I remember sitting back on a friend of mine I rented a cabin out in the woods and in Canada and I was sitting on the beach you know with friends and the lake was still you know and we were just drinking there was like a moment they were almost like like you know it sounds kind of woowoo but almost like in the matrix or somewhat everything slowed down yeah I’m done with this chapter you know I could I can almost picture them that book closing at that very moment and you know for you did you have with those types periences over this more of a gradual thing I think they were well they were definitely experiences for every for every chapter of the journey I’ve just been really and I’ll use the word blast man I’ve just been really really gifted by having people around me who were doing things that I never thought I could do but really wanted to and and I just learned to embrace that and so you know that the as far as that whole getting you know getting free thing I just we just dropped a video on this a couple of a couple weeks ago on on my youtube channel about these five freedoms and and freedom it’s just a word man it’s but living into these freedoms is a skill set and I think that’s the distinction anybody can talk about the word but in my travels in my teaching and I because it we relate it to our artwork in our life so it’s you know freedom of money you know knowing that you can create value and you can receive value at any time and not be shackled by financial lack or not be subject to the whims of an uncaring marketplace so developing competence developing a reputation where people are seeking you out and that allows you to set your fees and allows you to defy what the marketplace is determined is is you know your fees are worth and you say your fee is not the marketplace and so I think developing financial freedom is is huge and then that opens up the space for the other four freedoms freedom of location the ability to literally I mean I just came off with a year of being nomadic I almost as a test I wanted to see if I can run everything in my life business-wise and contribution and teaching and making money I wanted to see if I could do it with a passport a credit card and my my iPhone and and I did for better a part of 2017 ironically my phone the options you get with the financial freedom that buys you the rest of the options place it really is man it really is and so you know developing a location freedom and operating with no I call it this this Wi-Fi philosophy Wi-Fi wherever I’m feeling inspired and and and that’s it like if you don’t the place you’re in get up and leave so for 2017 I there was only I think two weeks in 2017 that I was in one spot for more than seven or eight days one was at Burning Man and one was it was at Jamie wheels flow camp for rust healing fire everything else was every two three days I literally would just take my bag and get a one-way ticket somewhere else anywhere that felt inspiring and you know there was you know they I wanted to go see architecture and so I got on a plane and went to London I wanted to go to a party in your visa so I flew there and I mean it just it’s a very nice thing but it comes back it comes from that first freedom that comes from knowing that you’ve got value to the marketplace and that value is not tied to a geographic location right right so true so true I mean that’s what a lot of our audience is desirous of or is in the process of acquiring themselves and I know one of the things that you and I think I’ll sort a list of no matter what field you’re in there’s varies of this is something called an imposter syndrome where you feel like that’s a fucking disease man it really holds people back at one of the soul-crushing resistances if you will to past to get to getting that freedom to to finally perhaps charging what you’re worth or jumping off like you said to take a one-way ticket to somewhere that inspires you what do you have to say about imposter syndrome yeah first of all it’s a real thing like that that feeling if anybody’s felt that don’t don’t doubt it like it is a real feeling and and anybody who says oh just ignore it just do it like now they don’t really understand it can be crippling it can freeze you for months years in some cases it can freeze somebody long enough for them to relinquish their vision that got them inspired in the first place and I’ve seen a lot of sadly a lot of people who have given up on the dream because they just don’t think they can do it so I think it is to be taken seriously that being said once it’s identified it’s also very very easily dealt with and I’ve used in my own life and I’ve and I teach this and work with clients on this a two-pronged approach to basically wipe out this thing called impostor syndrome and one is an inner philosophy an inner strategy and the other one is an external communication how your how you’re communicating and it doesn’t take long I mean we can we can Buster it right now the inner peace really comes from this we are taught in in society we’re taught through Kol sure and we’re taught through work even in school people are taught that your worth is your your external value in other words your worth is a human being it’s tied to your ability to make money to get good grades etc and then that’s absolutely s there’s nothing tied to the ones intrinsic value with regards to marketplace value and yet we don’t if we don’t acknowledge that and take steps to separate our own sense of self-worth from our money then it men will be swept up in societies sort of hypnosis so the first thing that really helps is to literally just out loud or write it on an index card where you can say it I have money but I am not my money and to externalize that and by the way that little phrase works really well for anything now I have a relationship but I’m not my relationship I have a job but I’m not my job I have an education but I’m not my education even I have thoughts but I’m not my thoughts and if you want to get super meta I have a body but I’m not my body and there’s there’s a lot of freedom in that so just separating ones money from from their sense of self-worth and then you start to look at well what are they all the other things in my life that actually make me feel like me that have nothing to do with the money and maybe it’s going for a trail run maybe it’s going and meditating which is something that I can’t recommend highly enough and 20 minutes a day changes everything so looking at all these areas of one’s life that have nothing to do with the money actually Ari harmonizes someone’s sense of self-worth and their sense of self-esteem so that there’s less resistance less need for the money you know you can go and quote again you can go and submit a proposal that might feel like a larger monetary value than you put in before but you just don’t have your ego tied up in it because that morning you went for a great run no maybe you you made love maybe you went for TRO trail run maybe you went inside the Sun maybe you wrote some poetry maybe you composed some music if you’re into that maybe you connected with some family and friends maybe you want to go volunteer oh yeah and in the middle of this amazing day you submitted a proposal those proposals sent from an ad space of fullness actually are far they’re accepted at a much higher rate because there’s no need that’s attached to it and nothing nothing dries up abundance like like need yeah I you know that’s it’s a funny it’s a way you put that is so true and I’ve experienced that personally in several different areas of my life and it’s kind of one of those things where ya hesitate to almost bring this up but it’s such a good example years ago a friend of mine she gave me the book Neil Strauss is book the game sure yeah and in that book amongst a bunch of other controversial topics he talks about how the best way he went about meeting women that he was interested in was having other things of better things to do you know I’m fuller richer life that was doing the you know that was casting the tractor beam for lack of a better term out into the world and attracting those people and then this back case women in this case perhaps clients or new friends or however you want you know towards him because because of this kind of stuff because where you’re not sitting there submitting the proposal you know waiting by the phone you know makes you and say that’s a great day that’s a great analogy man I mean the the the rules of attraction whether its chemical chemistry or sexual or financial or anything the rules are the same yes and the fastest way to lose something is to meet it the fastest way to attract something not to get all woo but fastest way to to bring things into our lives is through an active appreciation and and that’s just so simple but it’s very subtle and it’s not quite as you know hard charging and and you know all that all the pretend alphas out there like no you can do you look pretty stressed so I’ll take my I’ll take my reality thank you yeah yeah yeah and it’s true I’m you know I’ve you know even in that in that book I remember at the very end he basically cast you know tells people I had one of the last lines or what I remember you just told me people like all the rest of stuff that I’ve just told you about these techniques and tactics and stuff and all those kind of stuff I told you about it’s all kind of BS you know because you just got to become like a better person you know at the very end of the book of people often like just didn’t even didn’t read that far or whatever mischaracterized it you know and so this is you know the same idea now one of the things I think I’ve seen in my own life and I certainly seen friends suffer this is like the other people in their lives whether that’s the family members the other friends there’s this of course judgement and going on whenever you’re on they know you one way kind of that old hack mean saying of it you can never go home again kind of thing or whatever we’re right you can’t be the okay you can’t be a new person in your in your old stomping grounds and you know the challenge it’s yeah it’s very it’s not like you can’t it’s just as very challenging and people tend to try to hold you like you said to who they also believe you are not just either holding you’re stuck in yourself with what you were tying your identity to your work or whatever it is you’re doing but yeah it’s this the rest of the people and it’s almost like they’re just by telling you what to do or what you should be doing or what you’re doing wrong in many ways they’re just justifying their own internal stuff but it but in many ways but the things they say is what is what’s holding that person back to those those words that they’re casting onto that person but you know you experienced that in your own life as well Jesse yeah I’ve experienced the the presence of it I can’t can’t say that I’ve chosen chosen to be affected by it I’ve experienced the presence of it for sure and you bring up a great point about the you know like like you know the parallel saying it’s you can’t be famous in your own hometown right and I remember hearing it at years ago even when I was like you know 19 20 years old and I was teaching I just had this innate sense that if I’m gonna be an effective influencer if I’m gonna be a leader or teacher and I can’t be I can’t be one of the gang like I can’t hang out with my students and I can’t you know these you know students or families of these kids that I’m teaching when they invite me to their house for a barbecue I just had this immediate sense that now I can’t like young I’m your instructor I’m not your buddy and that just that distinction served me really really well it also later on in life created tremendous isolation tremendous loneliness which then you know I got to work through but this this idea of other people projecting their their assumptions onto us I think it really comes down to this because people treat us the way we teach them to treat us and so if someone assumes you know like right back in you know in San Antonio where I’m where I now reside again I had eight martial arts schools you know we had we had all the five in San Antonio and we’re affecting hundreds and hundreds of people in the community he and I would go into restaurants and I would I would have you know people greet me and I would always get the best seats and I would go to the car dealership and well mr. elder hi and I always get you know tickets to the Spurs courtside seats and I had a country club membership and it was like a little local celebrity thing going on but then I realized that you know this is just as in my life anymore when I came back when I moved back here is so interesting because I started connecting with people who saw me as that old person and they’re saying oh so you’re gonna open another karate school oh there’s all this stuff and I’m just looking at me saying you know freakin clothes how much how much life I’ve lived and I’m not even the same person I mean I like four lifetimes since I’ve seen you mother trucker and they’re just they’re just like so what do you do now I just looking at missing about what about what what do you do I said whatever I feel inspired to do what’s your point [Laughter] yeah you know it’s like it’s out but the thing is when we’re solid in ourselves when we know who we are we’re just immune to other people’s assumptions we’re immune to other people’s projections because you just recognize that that’s you know they’re not trying to hurt you they’re not trying to harm you they’re just trying to you know do their own thing and and that’s a very freeing thing yeah it certainly is I mean and you’re so t so right wait you said I mean it’s you really decide like earlier in the podcast he said you know you you couldn’t remember a time where you let those things affect you but you were like aware of them yeah it’s so true you can just choose not though I have those things affect you it’s it can be that simple it’s not easy perhaps but it can be very simple well it is very simple and and I what I found it and I love making distinction between simple and easy it is simple you know it’s it’s um just a phrase or I don’t let it affect you but to make it easy what I found is that creating something that’s bigger or or creating a new set of references for yourself doing something different actually eliminates the those little chatters those little voices you know when I when I when I started traveling and when I became nomadic and then I circled back around and people would say oh you know how’s Austin I’m like I’m not I’m not living in Austin anymore Oh what are you doing well last week I was in Ibiza and the week before that I was in London and week before that I was in LA and then you know the week before that I was in New York well I mean there’s just something new that’s happening and and it’s impossible for people to put you into a box when you’re growing so quickly yeah I think it’s so true and and really what you know the people are listening to this and they and they’re thinking about in their own lives you know these people around you perhaps may because I’m experienced this may be saying things that you interpret given your current perspective you interpret as you know they’re not a they’re not approving of whatever you’re doing but largely that’s because they’re afraid or they never think that they could do it so they’re like like you said they’re projecting these ideas onto you and if you let those hold you let’s go look at it as like their that’s their shit and absolutely yeah move past it boom just like that yep yeah absolutely and just that’s a great distinction man because when somebody said you can do that you know it might be true you might not know how to do it exactly right now but isn’t that part of the fun and that’s part of the fun is figuring out how and what somebody says you shouldn’t do that you can’t do that or whatever they’re really just talking about themselves and maybe they’re coming from a place of concern and to care but I just man I just get bored easily I think you and I are probably the same way like that it’s like life is an adventure let’s find out where the edge is and then you realize oh there’s no edge because the faster I run the more ground gets built in front of me but I’ll never run out it’s so true that’s such a great way of putting it it’s it’s a weird universe man but it’s extremely predictable and it operates according to very very specific laws and you know if we metaphorically if we tiptoe through life it’s like you know get all these quantum particles that are sensing somehow our approach and if we tiptoe they turn into quicksand because they’re gonna be as weak as we are and if we just decide we’re gonna march forward then those little quantum particles turn into concrete and they meet yes with the strength that we’re moving forward it’s a very responsive place in the women how do people get in contact with you Jesse what’s the best way to access you know what it is you offer people and where do they go yeah the easiest places on on the website Jesse elder calm at the time of this particular recording we’re finishing a pretty sizable overhaul so depending on when somebody jumps on a team height they might get redirected but that in in literally like two days from this particular conversation so should it be up for folks Jessie alder calm also Facebook and tons and tons of free content and engagement on Facebook my personal page is facebook.com forward slash Jessie elder lives we’ve there’s also an author page that they can go to instagrams Jessie elder lives and they can also look Jessie elder on YouTube awesome awesome stuff man now is there to sort of round out this show which I think has been absolutely fantastic is there any last sort of parting advice maybe a question I failed to ask that I should over or something we didn’t get to yet or you know just something you want to leave people with something to ponder what is the last thing you want to communicate to people on this wonderful show that you’ve you know afforded us here today I mean I’ve had to get time and I think you’ve done a masterful job at just rolling with the flow and I really appreciate it I think it really comes down to this most of those most of what we’re doing is borrowed objectives we’ve we’ve we’re chasing things or we’re seeking things that we’ve been taught are important and that may not necessarily be the what the resonance of your spirit and your soul is here for and so I think that it’s very useful to take some time out for oneself and turn off your phone close your browsers turn off your computer you know have a few hours away from the screen and just go for a walk just you just go for a walk no music no no you know binaural beats you don’t need to measure your brain waves just go for a walk just go for a walk and and notice what you’re thinking notice what you’re feeling and then question how many of those thoughts are yours and how many of those thoughts are inherited from the environment and and just beginning to question those thoughts is that my thought or is that something that I picked up from someone else that’s the really the beginnings of freedom that’s the beginnings of self-actualization and as you begin to think your own thoughts and feel your own feelings you’ll be able to separate the noise from the signal and you’ll start to find your own free see and as one finds their own frequency and honors that and acknowledges it first in the privacy of your own silent sanctuary your own walk your own meditation as you acknowledge that frequency that frequency will amplify and pretty soon that frequency will become a series of thoughts and feelings that you know are absolutely yours or maybe they’re coming from something bigger than you but they’re coming through you as a conduit of sorts those signals are unmistakable and that’s when amazing shit starts to shake loose that’s when people leave jobs that that are actually stuck in their soul and they begin a work that produces 5x the income and infinitely more more happiness but it comes from the silence it comes from from seeking their own signal and and finding and following their own frequency Wow that is so powerful that it’s such a such a great way to put it man people should listen back to this this whole episode many time though I’m going to this is just so many little nuggets any other you’ve dropped over the last bit here and it’s especially this last little segment amazing ideas that will take some time to think and a lot of people I think but it’ll empower you to go out and get on your own path and get the end out of this life and help others get the things they want over their lives that people understand yourself yeah it’s been a pleasure man it’s been oh this is fantastic this is a great way to kick off a morning and I really appreciate you taking the time to come on the show likewise Dave thank you for setting this up and for having me on as a guest and look forward to seeing you soon yeah man absolutely and for everybody else we’ll be back with another exciting guest next week tune in then because it’ll be hopefully just a special of what jesse has given us The post Episode #189 – Jesse Elder On Find Your Frequency For Success appeared first on Drop Dead Copy.

Mary Kate Feeney is not your typical copywriter and marketing consultant. Instead of taking the well-trodden copywriting path, Mary Kate took “the road less traveled”. In lieu of the clichéd internet marketing product launch, or writing long-form direct response sales letters for publishing giants like Agora, she applied the skills she learned in the McIntyre Method Masterclass (previously called ‘McMasters’) to the political and education spheres, helping schools and political campaigns to thrive (among others). She’s been part of 3 political campaigns (2 of which were successful). She’s raised $15k in 25 days for a school that really needed it, and then, as if that wasn’t enough, she raised another $17k in 24 hours… all using the email copywriting strategies she learned from The McMethod. In this interview, you’ll find out how she developed her copywriting and marketing chops, how she got involved in the political and education spheres, and how she writes emails that open wallets for political campaigns and schools. Plus, Mary Kate’s best tips and tricks for women who want to succeed in the copywriting industry. Now, according to Mary Kate… ..all of this is due to the foundational work she did in the McIntyre Method Masterclass and others. So once you’ve listened to this interview with Mary Kate Feeney, be sure to take a look at the McIntyre Method Masterclass here. In this incredible interview with MK, you’ll discover: how Mary Kate generated $15k in 25 days for a school client using storytelling in emails how Mary Kate generated $17k in 24 hours using email marketing how Mary Kate uses story-telling to fundraise in the political and education spheres how Mary Kate finds email copywriting clients how Mary Kate used copywriting to turn a Massachusetts governor into the 5th most popular governor on Twitter why marketers should forget the “marketing speak” and write in a way that normal, ordinary people can actually understand them Mary Kate’s tips for women on how to succeed in the copywriting industry Mentioned: CopyHour McIntyre Method Masterclass DockSideMedia.co (MK’s agency website) MK’s Twitter MK’s Instagram MK’s email address Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO John McIntyre: It’s John McIntyre here, The Autoresponding Guy, I am here with MK Feeney. Now, MK came to me, it must been a few years ago, three, four years ago, a while ago now and to do McMasters, sort of a community I had back then, which was all about email marketing and email copywriting. And anyway, she’s just gone through some really really amazing things, I think she’s got a fascinating story and the reason for that is that she … instead of going down a launch route and sort of the classical internet marketing and copywriting road, she’s been involved with the political world and the education world in using her copywriting skills, and marketing skills to actually sort of … it’s almost glamorous but to actually maybe help people more out, depending on how you look at it. So, just a really interesting story and I thought it’d be fun to get her on this show and learn a bit more about what she’s done. And I’ve got some numbers here, I thought it would be cool to read out some of these numbers that she mentioned in the email. So, one particular school, she mentioned that she’d raised $15,000 in 25 days, they’ve seen an increase in school applications and enrollment. And [inaudible 00:01:09] million dollar launches here, but I think it’s really cool to be able to use these skills. It’s a really good example how you can use these skills for not just making millions and millions of dollars. They’ve had an increase in donations and also at the last giving Tuesday, they raised $17,000 in 24 hours and all of this is due to email marketing and social media. There’s lots of stuff here, I think if I just keep rattling up, it might get a little bit monotonous, so, I’m gonna wrap it up and say hello MK, how are you? MK Feeney: Hello? I’m well, how are you? John McIntyre: Fantastic. It’s great to have you on the show. MK Feeney: Oh, thank you, I’m honored to be on. I’ve been a long time listener, so this is a great moment. John McIntyre: Great stuff. So before we sort of go back into the story, is there anything else you wanna mention, like what are some of the best things that’s going on right now? And we use that to set the stage before we sort of roll back into the past. MK Feeney: What’s going on right now? Well, I mean, I’m still … I’m kind of in that mode of what’s next? Dealing with different schools and different political things, but we have very … I had a successful election last year, I also had a non successful election, but that’s okay. We really pushed the boundaries in our local community about social media and email marketing. And the schools that I do work with, we did get that 17 grand in one day, which is a huge thing for them. So it’s kind of just pushing the boundaries of where email marketing and social media, where it works and where it doesn’t work in these fields, which for a lot of people they don’t … it’s never something that’s on the forefront of people’s minds. Like, “Oh, well, I guess there could be huge benefits for schools at least using these tactics.” So it’s always experimenting and especially with Facebook changing their algorithms every five seconds, it’s finding one of the other tools that we can use and email has been a key thing for a lot of these initiatives. John McIntyre: It’s really cool ’cause I’ve been speaking a lot of people lately about how to get clients ’cause I’ve been doing a lot of webinars and everyone’s getting on and saying, “Well, how do I get clients? Why would anyone even pay for a email?” It’s especially when you’re new to the game, people think “Why would anyone pay for some …” And this is what I thought back when I was getting started, why would anyone pay money for this? And then next step is, well businesses will pay for it, but what about schools or what about … you can say like the schools and political campaigns and things like that. And so, I think it’s just a great … it’s actually really inspiring, it’s interesting for me to see as well that you can take this stuff and really use it for anything. MK Feeney: Yeah, it’s true and I’m finding with especially with fundraising for schools, email marketing is far more successful than on Facebook. I know just from experimenting, that if I make a post say on Facebook about, “Hey, we’re trying to raise X amount of money for such and such,” not everyone’s gonna see it and it might die a very slow and painful death. Even if you can keep plugging it, but if you do it through email and you plan out your emails and what your stories are, you’re gonna see far more return, because you are right in their email box, you’re gonna see a bigger return that way than you are through social media. That’s what I’ve seen today. John McIntyre: Right, that’s fascinating, that’s so cool. Fascinating and also not that surprising as well, knowing what we know about email, right? So, cool, all right, well, let’s just step back a bit, I’d love to know a bit more ’cause we haven’t really spoken that much. We’ve had a few emails back and forth, and that was the community in the forum back then, but I’m curious to know a bit more about, before all of this, before you sort of found CopyHour and the McMasters and some of these courses, what was going on? Did you have any sort of marketing background? Did you have a job? Where were you at before all of this? MK Feeney: I did have a job after I graduated from university in 2005. I begun working for the then Massachusetts Governor, Mitt Romney and I worked in his Constituents Services office as a writer. So basically I wrote like greeting letters and other ceremonial documents like proclamations that were declared, Breast Cancer Awareness month and stuff like that. I was kept on for the next governor, which was Governor Deval Patrick. And I spent the majority of my carrier, political career with him in which I continued doing writing and I did some constituent case work. And from there about 2008, he got on Twitter, which if you think back on 2008, Twitter was like totally the Wild West at that time. He was one of the first politicians to get on and I started to monitor it from a constituent perspective. So, if someone had a problem with healthcare or something, then I could handle that, I eventually became his director of online media. And as I liked to joke, I played him on the internet, I was the person who tweeted as him, I would monitor it, I managed his website and just kept everything in his online world on message, and again pushing those boundaries of what is appropriate for a politician on the internet. By the time I left, he was I believe the fifth most popular governor on Twitter and that’s behind other big politicians like Arnold Schwarzenegger and then Jerry Brown, Chris Christie, like all these ones that we know nationally. So, I thought that was pretty good that my guy from Massachusetts was up in the top 10. John McIntyre: That’s amazing. MK Feeney: So, that’s what I was doing. John McIntyre: Interesting, okay so, basically doing writing, so still your background is very creative by the sound of it, you’ve been doing writing for a while. MK Feeney: Yes. John McIntyre: How did you get from that to discovering copywriting, like where did that transition happen? MK Feeney: Well, it happened when I was in the governor’s office ’cause I’m trying to remember when CopyHour begun, but I was in the first round and there was … I’ve always been attracted to writing a majority … as in majority of my career has been writing based. When I was in university, I was Editor in Chief of the campus newspaper, so, that was not … this is not a big jump, but I knew that I needed to work on writing in the online space. And what attracted me to CopyHour, was learning the tricks and how to write better headlines and leadlines, ’cause I knew especially from Twitter, when you only have 140 characters, how can I say the most in the brief space that I have? And that’s what attracted me to it, was just learning these different techniques and tricks and how to outline sales pages, because there is an element of … and people don’t think of it but you are selling things in politics, whether it’s an idea, a policy, a person and copy is very important to all of that. John McIntyre: Right. So I’m curious, when in the … maybe it’s wasn’t really an issue, a lot of people become interested in copywriting because of the potential freedom they can have. Like the classic cliché of the … going to a little cubical and a dreary gray office with halogen lights and all that sort of stuff, like that’s a real think through. Was that part of your experience or where you just? MK Feeney: Yes. John McIntyre: It was okay. MK Feeney: Yeah, that was the other thing. I mean, at the end of my government career, I was having other people come up to me and ask me for help or different things on the side and so I thought I did want to leave, embark on my own … start my own agency. So, that was very much part what I was looking for. It was a two fold thing, one I wanted to make my job easier and learn and work on my writing ’cause I’m constantly learning, constantly trying to figure out what are the trends. And then the second one was I knew eventually I was gonna go off on my own and I saw that this was a good way to get there. John McIntyre: Right okay. So you’ve kind of said it was a bit premeditated in a sense that you had to let go or had that feeling of where you wanted to go, okay. So it’s interesting you mentioned CopyHour, ’cause I think CopyHour came … it was 2012 when I was in a four person mastermind with Derrick. Derrick’s the guy who set it up, right? We were all sort of working on a little business type of thing, this is before I’d even started copywriting I think ’cause that was partly what got me into it. This little four person mastermind and Derrick came out with this idea he found from Gary Halbert of handwriting sales letters. And so we did together and then at the end he said, “Oh, I’m gonna set up this thing, I’m gonna call it CopyHour I think, and I’ll put it up online and we can get some people in there and we’ll see what happens.” And so that was the first … it would have been around June, or July or I don’t know, somewhere like mid 2012 when he would have put that out at for the very first time. So you were in there on the first round? MK Feeney: I was there in the first round and I would … before I’d go to work, I’d try to get some of it done or I would sit in my office during my lunch break and just write, just endless amounts of coffee and coffee, coffee and coffee too, just to learn it just every single day, just sitting there and writing it. And in fact, the CopyHour is still going on and Derrick has opened it up to the people who’ve done it before, so I’m doing it again, I haven’t done it in years. So it’s kind of fun to just sit down for your 30, your class of 33 minutes writing out copy and just remembering things or looking at things differently. If anyone wants to learn copy is … people might be like, “Wait, you are just sitting here copying out something that someone’s already else written?” Yes, but you can learn so much, even for someone who’s been doing this for a while, I’m still learning. John McIntyre: Right. I think you kind of forget things too, I haven’t actually done it in a while, but I know that if I ever sat down to do it, it’s … like even after you’ve been writing copy for two, three or four, I don’t know, maybe 10 or 20 years as well, it’s something that you kind of remember some stuff. You develop your own style and you get somethings done, the subtle little things that just fall through the cracks. So, when you go and do it again, and brings it all back, but totally whenever someone says, “How do I learn copy, I don’t know what to do, do I need to spend any money?” It’s like, “Not really, you need to work hard, but if you could do that, you don’t really need much at all to actually start learning.” MK Feeney: No, you don’t and you can really find anything and there are sites that have these letters on them or if there’s somebody who you really like their work, you could sit down and copy it and there are a few books to read. I think it’s important to learn about persuasion and influence, which are two books to read that are important, but it’s not the barrier of … getting into this world is not really that high. Anyone can learn it, you just have to put in the work like anything. John McIntyre: Right, absolutely. So if you were in the first one and ’cause I think that’s when I started copywriting as well, McMasters really didn’t probably come together for another year or two. So what happened between Copy Hour, like what did you … when did you quit your job at that stage? How did you even quit, what happened? MK Feeney: No, I hadn’t quit. I left the governor’s office in … let me try to remember here, in February of 2013 and I went to go work for the Massachusetts Office of Travel and Tourism, but I had left government by December 2013, I didn’t stay there long ’cause I was ready to go off and do my own thing. So I officially started Darkside Media, which is the company I have today in February 2014. John McIntyre: Okay, so you quit your job and that was when you were officially freelance or? MK Feeney: Mm-hmm (affirmative). I was yes, I had already actually started working for the school that I work for today, which is actually my former high school. I’d already started working for them and then started picking up some other projects as well, so right out of the gate, I was busy. John McIntyre: Right interesting. All right, we’ll come back to that actually that whole with your clients … I’m curious where did … so, after that you mentioned, you did end up inside McMasters, which sort of started as a sort of four week copywriting master classes I suppose you call it, and then turned that into a membership community, there was a few other bonuses and as a forum, we could talk about stuff. Where did that fit in the picture for you, was that sometime that year? MK Feeney: Probably yeah. ‘Cause I feel like I was early on that one too, I wanted to learn more about email ’cause what was the structure, what was different, how can I use that? Because I could see that was … I wasn’t really doing much email marketing until I’d say, within the last couple of years after McMasters, because I didn’t know how it was different. So, then once I went through McMasters and about storytelling, that kind of opened a whole new thought process for me though to. Because so much of what I do or what I tell clients is a story, what is your story? And so if you could do that in different ways through email and so, that’s what I learned through McMasters and that was what I was hoping to get out of it, what was I missing and the email was it. John McIntyre: Right, that’s really amazing thing too, is I think back when I was getting started, you think it’s just, “I just write anything,” you can just … if you are writing off like fancy bullets and headlines, you can sell anything, but then you realize like you can said, like stories and it’s really subtle like it’s not … beside you have stories being the way they sell stuff, it doesn’t mean you say, “Once upon a time, so and so happened to so and so.” It can be as simple as saying, you’d wanna sell a car, you could talk about, “Oh, it’s got a 300 horsepower engine and leather seats and AC and a nice steer.” The sort of facts about what the car is or a really quick story would be like, “Hey, did you know Brad Pitt drove this car to his wedding or something?” Like one sentence would convey a whole picture, a whole … basically a mini story that someone’s gonna imagine in their when you tell them that. MK Feeney: Right, one of the favorite emails that I have written was for the school that I worked for, and where I went and we were doing a Giving Tuesday and for anyone who doesn’t know what Giving Tuesday is, but it’s the first Tuesday after Thanksgiving here in America, after Black Friday and Cyber Monday, it’s a way to give to charities. And we’ve been doing this for probably three years now. One of the years, I wrote this email about my father’s favorite story from my time in high school. Now this high school is an all girls school, just outside of Boston and we have this thing where we are teaching young women to be confident, competent young women. And so I wrote this story about, Friday was pizza day, so we ordered pizza from a local shop and have it brought it on Friday for pizza. And when I was a student, the lines used to be so long to buy your pizza. And a friend of mine was like, “Well, what if we pull our money together and I just go off, I’ll buy a whole pie and bring it back,” So it showed in initiative and all of that so I wrote that as an email, as a way to like, if you give your money, this is what it’s going towards. Young women who can think ahead, work together. The amount of people who I got an email back from being like, “Oh my God, I remember that. Yes, this was our experience, and then they was give money,” it was perfect. And that’s what I talk about with telling stories. It’s like, what does your audience remember, what is the emotional piece that you could tap into that’s then gonna give them the reason to fork over their money to whatever it is, to a school, to your non profit. You’ve got to touch them emotionally, otherwise, there’s no reason for them to give. John McIntyre: Right, interesting. I like that story, that’s good. What are some of the other stories you’ve used to basically sell stuff and persuade people to do stuff with school or with political- MK Feeney: So like with the school you talk about a beloved teacher. We had a Catholic school, so we had a sister, a nun who used to teach Latin. So any time you bring her up, she’s no longer with us, people then remember, “Oh, I remember what that class was like. Oh, that’s right. Oh, I should really … if I give, then other girls get to have the same opportunity that I had.” So if you talk about teachers or certain traditions or experiences, something that especially with the school [inaudible 00:18:40] remembers, that will bring memories back and that will cause them to help them out. Because they think of the people who came before them who gave money or supported the school in some sort of way and they’re continuing that legacy. So, if you talk about legacy a lot people also get into that. For political stuff, stories that we’ve used, so, one of the big campaigns I was just recently involved in was changing the structure of our government. Now this I won’t get too much into the weeds about this but the town that I … because it can get a little complicated, but the town that I lived in was a town form of government. We wanted to change it to a city form of government and it’s so wonky, “How can I get anyone interested in this?” Well, the stories that you tell, “Well, if we switch this form of government, your taxes may not go up as much. We can give more money for schools.” So if you talk about the kids and how this will benefit them and the future or environmental causes, “Well, we’d have more money,” or, “Someone who can be dedicated to making sure that we are keeping our parks safe or cleaning up contaminated sites.” The persons who’s reading it, what is their emotional connection, what do they care about? So if you spell it out in those ways taking very wonky subjects such as the structure of government can make it more accessible and digestible for them to understand and hopefully to motivate them to make that change. John McIntyre: Right. This is actually an issue I’ve seen with a lot of people. You might find this too when they ask you for feedback on their website or feedback on their funnel. Especially when people are sort of more technical than the engineers or something, they think they’re explaining something in a really simple way. And it’s either incredibly vague, so, you just got no idea of what they’re talking about, it doesn’t mean anything, it is just words that are like a pure fluff or it’s so complicated that it’s just like, “It sounds good, but I don’t get. It’s just like cool but it doesn’t connect for me.” MK Feeney: Right. Yeah, and that’s why when I sit down to write or when I’m talking to people I try to say, “Who is it that you’re writing to, who is the one person that you’re trying to explain whatever it is to? And write towards them, write to them, how is it easy for them to understand, not for you but for them.” And I find that that takes town … that makes it easier because it’s like having a conversation. John McIntyre: Right, ’cause you’re actually talking with them. MK Feeney: Right. So I mean that it is part of that whole avatar thing, like who is your target audience and you should be writing to them but for regular people, you do want to say, don’t get into the marketing speak, I hate marketing speak, but just say who is that person, name that person, write to them. John McIntyre: That’s good. So, where did you go next? You did CopyHour, you did McMasters and got the storytelling stuff done part, that was when you mentioned I think with McMasters, that was where you did the 15K in 25 days with the school. What I’m curious about, what was that campaign? Was that like two or three or five emails over 25 days? How do you make 15 grand, is that just donations? How does it work? MK Feeney: It was all donations, and there were different elements to it, it was mostly email, but we did have a direct mail piece that was at the beginning of the campaign. And then we had some social media pieces but it was mostly driven by email, and that would be the first email kicking off about, I believe that’s where we talked about where we were today and talking about the sister who was the teacher and why you should give. And here’s our challenge. We were looking for … I think we were looking for 125 donors in 25 days, and we just so happened then, 125 donor equaled $15,000. And at that time, we had never raised anywhere close to that in that short amount of time. So, it would be like, I think we would email twice a week, which is not every day, because we weren’t sure. It was a very cold audience. So, emailing every day was probably not gonna work. So, about twice a week, we would have a little story about what was going on in the school, and then the followup email would be like, “Oh okay, so, we’ve reached 15 donors this week and we’ve earned this much,” so we would keep a tally so people could follow a long. John McIntyre: That’s good. It’s really cool to see. It is really interesting to see how you’ve taken some of the stuff from CopyHour and McMasters as well and then taken it and applied it to schools, I think it’s really exciting to see. So wat happened the next … that was 2014 I think we’re talking … now, it’s 2018 so what’s happened since then? Has it just been school, school, school or what have you spent the last four years doing? Just doing more of this- MK Feeney: More of this, so, I’ve been having the schools, I had three campaigns that I was involved in. And working with a couple of … I have worked with a couple of small businesses like a friend’s of mine, nothing big. Right now I’m involved with doing some more local things for the business association, working on their website, copy on their site and where they wanna go and tell their story. So, I’m involved with that and just a couple of other local things that I’m currently in the process of signing contracts for and stuff like that, but it’s more of just continuing of working with these non profits and organizations who need the help and who need to tell their story better. I think that they are … because they’re not … I think some non profits are stuck on the technical aspects of it. And if they break down to that you have to just tell your story, I think everyone understands the basics of storytelling. And that’s all it is, it’s the technology is just the medium, I think you can get there, but if you don’t have the story and if you haven’t figured out who you are, and what you’re trying to achieve and telling that, then it doesn’t matter if you’ve got a Facebook page, an email list, a Twitter account ’cause it won’t be effective. John McIntyre: Absolutely, love it. And so now you’ve bundled that into all … that’s sort of all become dark side media, which you mentioned that this is what you’re focusing on this year growing and you said you were expanding your consulting. It sounds like you’re planning taking on some employees, so, getting a lot busier. MK Feeney: I hope so. Yes, I am getting busier and it’s … we’re reaching the point where I can’t just be a one woman shop, which is really exciting, ’cause I think these groups are learning that the world is changing and it’s moving fast and that they have to keep up. And it’s true, there are some phenomenal non profits doing some really great work online like Charity: Water is one that I love to talk about because they are great. Pencils of Promise, they’re great and they’re doing a great job online. And so, I think even local little non profits who are just as important can take a page out of their book too. John McIntyre: Interesting. Okay, so, on that note, this note of being busy, I’m curious, the number one question I get in emails, on the webinars I’m doing is how to get clients. And so especially for something like this, I mean it’s hard enough getting any client at all, especially in the beginning or that sort of feels like … feels very difficult. How do you go about getting the school clients, did this start with … you mentioned the high school that you went to as a girl, is that and so many referrals since then, how are you getting all these clients? MK Feeney: It’s been referrals to be honest. The school staff has just been … if they’ve seen what I’ve done with the school that I do most of the school work for, they’ve seen that, they’ve had me in. I would do maybe one-off consults with them and then it’s just mostly word of mouth. The political stuff was, I literally just showed up one day to one of their meetings. They had a public meeting and I introduced myself and I said who I was, I gave them my business card and three years later, I’ve done three elections for them and we’ve had success. So, it’s just like it’s showing up, it’s talking, it’s networking but it’s been mostly referrals, so, through the political work, I’ve met all sorts of people who wanted services. And that’s what it is, it’s just really … I haven’t called, emailed anyone, which at some point I may have to, but it’s been mostly referrals and I guess the work speaks for itself, I don’t know. John McIntyre: It sounds like it does, you’re doing a great job. And I mean it’s funny too, if it’s all referrals, you’ve probably got so many case studies now and examples that if you wanted to throw up a case study package or some sort of Ad campaign, like, “Oh, here’s what I did with the three schools, here’s the money we raised. So, give me a call if you want the same thing,” it’s a very easy pitch now. MK Feeney: Absolutely. John McIntyre: So, I mean it’s kind of interesting, what would be your advice now that you’ve sort of been doing this for four or five years now? What would you say to someone who’s like, “Look, I don’t really have any experience, I’m basically like you were but five years ago, no copywriting experiencing yet, how do I get started? How do I get into this industry? How do I become like you and write emails or write copy and have that life?” MK Feeney: I wouldn’t be shy, I mean, while I did have clients out of the game when I left my job, there was a period of time where I really didn’t at the same time and I was afraid to tell people or I was a little ashamed of what I did I don’t know why, but if you want this life, and if you want to have work and if you want to be in this industry, you can’t be shy about it. If people ask what you do, you tell them what you do. And you show how you can help them. I know it’s easier said than done and I’m not necessarily perfect at this, but getting out there and talking to people is really one of the best ways to do it. I mean you can hide behind your computer all you want, but you’re not gonna get the success that you would have face-to-face. John McIntyre: Right. I mean my go-to point of advice for people who are just getting started is, “Go meet people in person, go to [crosstalk 00:29:46] co-working conference.” It’s a hundred times easier if you go in person and shake someone’s hand and look them in the eye, you can get clients online. I get a lot of clients online now with podcast and things like that. You can go for guest posts, but it always hard especially in the beginning when you’ve never had a sales call, you don’t know what the pitch is, you don’t even understand who you’re talking to or how it even works yet. The best thing you do is just go and meet a bunch of people and have some conversations and see where it leads. MK Feeney: Right, absolutely. I mean when I showed up to this local political group three years ago, I didn’t expect anything really. I was watching them for a couple of month and I was like, “Oh their online stuff really is not good,” but I didn’t expect to be in the position that I am in today, but I wouldn’t be in this position if I didn’t go up to them and say, “Hi, I’m MK Feeney.” And talk to them about what they were looking for and how I could help them. John McIntyre: Yeah, absolutely. And one last thing and then we will wrap it up. I was wondering, since you kind of taken a different path, you’re doing sort of more of the non profit, the schools or that sort of stuff, I’m curious if maybe there’s a piece of advice that you feel no one talks about, but that’s actually really important or maybe there is something that you actually hate about this whole internet marketing industry that no one talks about. So, anyhow I’m curious if there’s anything that you think about that no one really mentions on podcast and courses and books whatever that you found to be true or not true, just something surprising about this whole world. MK Feeney: Oh man, that’s a good question. I do find it a little frustrating, there’s two things that I find a little frustrating that not everyone operates this way is, I don’t like marketing speak. I find that we like to make things unaccessible for people or inaccessible for people by being crowded in marketing speak of avatars and all that. We have to talk like regular people so that people can understand. And if they need that … excuse me, that they could seek out our help and our services and that we are partners for them. I look at myself as a partner of all my clients. I am just as interested in their success as they are, there is that. And two, I find that in the internet marketing world, you don’t see as many women who make it to the forefront who are really talking about themselves and what they do, but we’re out there. And I just would encourage other women to go out there and say, “Hey, this is what I do.” It’s not just all guys, no offense John. But we are there, I find that it could be a little bit of a bro-ish field. John McIntyre: It’s definitely [crosstalk 00:32:42]. MK Feeney: Yeah, no, but we are there and I would just encourage women to speak out more and to share their successes because we’re having them. John McIntyre: That’s great. I was gonna ask you about that actually, I just wrote that down. Also in the webinars I’m running lately, every now and then there’s woman gets on there and she’s like, “Where are all the …” I’ll share a few case studies or success stories and they usually go out and it’s just ’cause I’ve got more guys emailing me and stuff like that. I’m always like, “I wish there was more women, they’re harder to find.” They’re out there like you said, but maybe they keep to themselves or what I don’t know. MK Feeney: Well I think when I said earlier, “You can’t be shy,” I think I’m mostly speaking to my fellow women out there, but you can’t be shy. If you want to get ahead in this industry and if you want to actually have work, you have to be out there. And I think … I don’t know if this is my call to arms to women but, “Ladies, lets show up, I would love to meet more of you so we could band together.” John McIntyre: Me too, I wanna tell more stories like this so I could … like there’s more women out there. MK Feeney: Yes, come on. John McIntyre: Listen, okay, well let’s wrap it up. Before we go though, if people wanna learn more about you, I know you’ve got Darkside Media, what’s the best way for people to get in touch with you, all the women out there if they’re inspired, if they wanna reach out? MK Feeney: Yeah, they can email Me at mk@darksidemedia.co or they could find me on Twitter @mkfeeney or Instagram on mkfeeney as well, that’s where I am. John McIntyre: Awesome, and you said you’re putting together a website, is that gonna ready pretty soon or? MK Feeney: I certainly hope so, that’s the rest of today’s project. John McIntyre: So maybe go to darksidemedia.co and there maybe a website there, otherwise do the email, the Twitters or the Instagrams. MK Feeney: Yeah, email’s the best. John McIntyre: Cool, all right. I’ll have links to listen to show notes at the bottom on themcmethod.com, otherwise thank you for coming on show MK, it’s been really good meeting you finally and hearing your story. MK Feeney: Yes, it’s been a pleasure thank you. John McIntyre: Fantastic. The post MK Feeney On How To Use Email Copywriting As A Force For Good appeared first on Drop Dead Copy.

A copywriting living legend returns to the podcast. If you go back to Episode #44, David gave great advice on “Hot Button” Emotional copy. He’s on the copywriting Mount Rushmore… he worked for the legendary David Ogilvy… and he holds several current controls with big publishers. How does he get into the mind of the prospect and learn what makes them tick? David lays out several simple and easy ways to gain that insight. His lifetime of experience makes learning from him straightforward and clear. This episode is one to come back to again and again. In this episode, you’ll discover: The “method acting” way to slip into your prospect’s shoes. (How to get into the deeper issues which make persuasion easy). The one mistake copywriters make that kills the sale right from the start. (Make sure your copy stays in THIS form). How to sharpen and tighten your copy today by creating this one thing over and over. Shocking confessions of presidents and top salesmen. Get your copy sizzling from the start. The often-overlooked strategy that has become the secret weapon of the smartest marketers. Mentioned: David’s website Ogilvy & Mather John Carlton David Allan’s Make Words Pay Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO Hey everybody, welcome back to the podcast and today we have a very special guest I’ve been looking forward to for awhile he is a legend and copywriting circles. Brian Kurtz, who we had on the show previously, refers to him as one of the Mount Rushmore of Boardroom copywriters. David Deutsch welcome to the show. David Deutsch: Well thanks, it’s great to be here. David Allan: Yeah, it’s really exciting to have you on the show. This is a real pleasure and an honor. David Deutsch: I appreciate that. I appreciate that nice introduction. David Allan: Well, you are a legend amongst copywriters and everyone who listens to the show a lot we have a lot of copywriters, of course we’ve had a lot of copywriters on the show and some some famous ones as well but you’re seen as sort of that top A-list pinnacle so maybe let’s go back to the very beginning and start with your superhero origin story. How did you get into this? David Deutsch: well I got into it just I found myself working at an ad agency in New York Ogilvy and Mather – yeah the big one today one but I was just working there as a temp okay and I just thought hey as long as I’m here or this advertising stuff looks pretty interesting maybe I could try my hand at writing so I persisted a little bit and got a chance to do some copy got into you know full-time doing copy and that’s, that was the origin it was very unintentional like oh I’m here at Ogilvy I guess… David Allan: what was the culture like working there well you know it’s funny it’s like when you grow up in New York City you don’t or you know like a fish in water doesn’t really think of it as being in water so you just sort of think well this is what all advertising agencies are like they’re founded but they’re big they’re founded by a genius you know they have a teaching culture but it was you know it was very unique because of that it was very much like a teaching hospital you know okay it was very important you know learning and teaching and it was very it was very you know you did things in a certain way you know there were obese you know rules for doing things and it was great to have that that kind of education especially that respect of course for direct response that oba be had right and you how did you have much personal interaction with Ogilvy was he around at all or were you mostly interacting with some of the other people I was mostly interacting with other people although I did get to react interact with him nice that’s that’s excellent because obviously he is a like yourself now he’s a legend of copywriting everyone that’s listened to show hopefully has read his books and if not shame on you so take us so who were the top copywriters working for Ogilvy when you were working there oh gosh you know at a place like that you have creative directors you know like john ray and was there some people like that that that that oh my god you’re taking me back many years it’s just very interesting I think I’ve always you know and so forth and it’s sort of like he’s you know watch some of his very popular video that everyone’s that probably has seen of him talking about direct response and so forth but it’s interesting to hear somebody who’s actually was you know around at that time has insight into like what was that like because we sort of we sort of look back now and it has so much sort of legendary status to it but like you said I’m sure when you’re doing it just seems perfectly sort of like Mad Men you know about 10 or 20 years you know with that you know not not so you know Mad Men was kind of probably an exaggerated version certain way anyway but it was kind of like that you know the the the dynamics of it oh gosh I was there for a couple of years before I moved down to Richmond and started working it you know well any ad agency would be a smaller at agency but you know working with small working with smaller ad agencies which was kind of fun because I got to do all the cool stuff you know I got I got well and also because I wanted to I suppose I could have just been a writer but I kind of liked buying media I kind of liked except for the time I you know thought I made like a $60,000 mistake on a newspaper ad that we’re gonna have to eat but it turned out I didn’t that’s that sort of was you know it’s like I don’t know if I want to do media anymore but you know especially like going after new business and all that stuff I just found that a lot of fun so right now a lot of copywriters it seems like I’ve heard John Carlton talk about this a bit and from having people on the show and so forth it seems to bear out over time with copywriters by and large seem to be a rather introverted have a lot of introverted people involved in copywriting and would you consider yourself introverted or you say you like the media buying and the interaction stuff what do you think no I’m a high-functioning introvert okay I guess it’s the best way to subscribe that I I do pretty well I you know but then I have to go and regroup and you know get my get my energy back right but yeah I enjoy that I don’t I don’t I I probably like writing better in fact but I’m not sitting in a room by myself writing but when I’m with other people or at least are other people next door I try to do that whenever I can and work work more you know partnering kinds of things working with other writers or in fact a lot of what I do now is kind of working with other writers in terms of training and creative directing or copy supervising write things like that so from the small ad agencies what was the next step well the next step was covering Jay Abraham okay that was like hey I want to do this I want to I want to be more involved with companies on a different level so I set out to kind of be a junior Jay Abraham and and help people with marketing and you know get know Gabe Jason was do you get give me you and you know I try doing that a little but I soon found myself I soon found people were far more willing to pay me money to write copy and that my skills translated pretty well probably largely thanks to David Ogilvy into direct response so I hooked up with John Finn who was kind of a copywriters agent in California he put me in touch with people like Jim ruts I worked with Jim for a while with this great great copywriter and got into the whole world of writing for people like boardroom and and and the big publishers very nice so when you sort of hit that level what was it like to go to work for people like boardroom I mean were you aware of them beforehand and so forth that when you got first got involved with them or was it’s just yeah I had never never heard of I never really heard a boardroom till I started working with Jim I think nice and he was working with them at the time yeah yeah he’d been working with them for a while Jim practically like invented the maggle log I mean I think he literally may have so working for boardroom what year was that when you started at board remember oh gosh you know the early 90s yeah I think first project with Jim yeah and you’ve gone on to etch quite a like you said we said at the beginning at a legendary status at least of Brian Kurtz is mine for sure and in most people’s opinion so how did you ascend to the heights of the world oh that’s an interesting question you know I think just this sort of you know drayton bird calls it this this feeling of never quite being satisfied you know of always feeling it could be better I could be better you know and as a conjurer learning I kind of like learning things and persuasion and copy and and putting words together so I was pretty diligent in terms of reading you know I read Claude Hopkins when I was at Ogilvy cuz over he said you should read Claude Hopkins right so I took it out of the took it out of the library I think I was the first person to take it out in like four years or something yes and so I it’s it’s partly that I think partly a lot of study and I think partly also putting myself in a position to learn from people you know working under Jim ruts and and and working under Jim punky and and you know and people like that I think because there’s in a way there’s really no substitute for that you know you can learn stuff from books and from meeting people’s copy but to really have someone look at your copy and tear it apart tell you to go and do it over and tell you okay this is you know finally what we’re looking for and now were you in terms of the some of the ways these mentors of yours you know were they directly teaching you or you know it’s sort of a hands-on approach and saying like no this is like you said like destroying your copy and I mean you rewrite it or wasn’t more of a company thing where you’d pass it through and they would change it so forth and then tell you after or sort of how did it all work yeah you know it’s an interesting question because you know as a lot of people didn’t really have or articulate a philosophy right as I would have expected they would you know it was more like don’t be boring you know specially gym but suitable and I think he’s ever written a boring word of copy so it was more like that it was more learning right as you say from from what they did to my copy because there’s nothing like trying to solve a problem and then seeing how someone else solved the problem like it’s like oh I struck how do I make this interesting and there what about this is it no like this oh my god that’s amazing and then you look at it you know you deconstruct okay how did they do this oh they did this you know they they took it and they found a an aspect of it I think bullet writing helps a lot right um I’m a big fan of that and I love to do bullets and I think that was great training because you could really see in a bullet you can see what the template is yeah you know what never to do what always to do ten things to do the thing X that does why you know what everyone’s doing and not telling you how to add emotion it was like a great little little training round yes it just sharpened copy skills you know there’s a thing in I don’t want to go off on a long tangent but there’s a thing in training in in learning things which involves the idea of very isolated learning like when you’re learning soccer they found one of the best way to learn it is to put people in a really small room and make them play soccer so you’re like constantly being castable and you’re constantly having to block that makes sense yeah and it’s so kind of like that with bullets it was like constantly got it made this clever got to make this work got to make this interesting got to make this interesting how do I take this and make it interesting and so it was a great you know a great training ground for that because bullets are kind of like a microcosm for the rest of the of the copy you know there’s a fine line between bullets and regular copy you know you could say bullet what never to eat on an airplane you say you know hey I’d like to tell you a little bit about something that may surprise you did you know that there’s something you should never eat on an airplane you know it’s true and in this book I’m gonna tell you what it is as well as many other things that you should never do that could be a bullet or it could be body copy or it could be a headline mm-hmm yeah that’s so true I think I enjoy writing bullets myself and trying to figure out ways you know to make them interesting and to suck people into the what what could that be about you know I remember getting sucked into bullets myself specifically ones I’m Gary Halbert had written as I learned later and I just thought to myself wow what is like I think because I bought a bodybuilding course when I was 19 and I like later learned that Gary wrote the letter for it right and I and I remember just I can still feel it waiting for the package to arrive and I was looking over the bullets love what I then you know I think we’re just this is what’s gonna be in the product oh my goodness what you know one thing never to do when you walk into a gym or whatever it was but I still remember that bullet so there’s such power and those things and you know it’s it’s it’s a powerful way to to learn copy is to see how copy affects you yeah because that’s that’s you don’t need someone to look at your copy wait wait you can feel does it does it resonate with me and you can feel when you can feel your own copy does it does it resonate would it make me want to want to buy this or want to read the book that this bullet is from there’s a famous story I’m I wish i really knew who the guy was but I think he was associated with the guy who wrote The Wall Street Journal letter whose name escapes me off the top of my head oh yeah who is another writer who was associated with him wrote the copy for a book a product that was a book and when the guy he gave it to the you know the prot the owner of the business the owner was like well this isn’t the book I I wrote you know he’s like no this is the book you should have wrote and then I went back it changed it now have you encountered some of those things and in your lengthy copywriting career you’re talking about fuck you know like changing a product yeah like when people come to you with stuff I mean a lot of copying you’re like and you do the obviously the research aspect to find out all the different details about it and so forth then you think okay I wrote this cup this is what it should be you know and then I’ve gone back and changed the product sorry that happened to me also don’t forget you’re talking about offers to so the the book may stay the same but hey what about let’s add these bonuses right you know and then that may be something you can or the angle of the copy itself you know the book is titled a certain way or right now in terms of what you’re doing nowadays now you don’t have many controls yeah yeah how many controls you currently have with the that’s basically what you’re known for though having these long-standing controls yeah yeah if we include the things I’ve kind of helped creative direct or helped on then this probably quite a few there’s maybe six or so Wow you know that our mailing right now that’s awesome and that’s sort of you’ve course come from that Direct Mail world and now we’re in the Internet age we’re right directly else seems to be I mean people still do it obviously but it seems to have sort of it doesn’t have that the sizzle or the or the sexiness perhaps that had in the past where it was the only option or one of the options what’s your yeah that makes it a good well that makes a good weapon I think and you know Brian Kurtz probably talked about this a little bit you know the power of direct mail and right how scalable it is you know because when you find the thing that works to a certain segment right yeah you can find other names you know like that whereas you try to scale something on the internet it doesn’t quite work because I don’t know the traffic costs start to get up and up and costs more to get keywords and etc etc yeah and and also because people aren’t mailing there’s a big potential right you know it’s not so hard to stand out in the mailbox all right it’s a can untap it’s become an untapped resource for many yeah so God’s sake don’t tell people so now since you’ve been on both sides of that you’ve been in the sort of Direct Mail thing and now you’re in the Internet age what have you noticed about some of the copy you see you know nowadays as opposed to when you I mean basically when he was doing direct mail you have to have a lot of skin in the game almost to even send that copy out yeah at least spend some money you know and a good chunk chance or to get the names or however you were doing it yeah but nowadays you can throw something up pretty quickly for copy out there being tested and driving traffic to it what have you noticed about how this whole thing is involved well I mean there’s a lot of aspects to that obviously just because something’s on the Internet as you say it’s not something that someone’s willing this is really to put a lot of money behind so you’ve certainly a lot more junk right out there on the other hand you doing it right you also have a tremendous ability to test very quickly and very rapidly so there’s a certain copy evolve then you know among smart people very very rapidly right you put something up it works you know this this much you make some tweaks you try a new headline try some new copy some new pictures new graphic format and gradually you’ve turned a single into a home run right and you’ve let the market almost tell you what the copy should be I mean you got to be small enough obviously to know what copy to write so they can choose this one or this one but it is sort of this Darwinian you know survival of the fittest that’s that’s like speeding up ‘evil it speeds up evolution you know like controls of oven direct mail and get better and better but on the internet they can evolve you know like really fast yeah the iterations are super fast mm-hmm nowadays you said you’re mostly involved as sort of you know copy cheeping being sort of overseeing things and so forth and working with other writers now when it comes to getting the best out of let’s say my own copy if you’re the writer or if you’re hiring writers because we have course business people a listen to this show hopefully it will get a copywriter to write their their copy what are some of the ways I know this is sort of stuff you’re into nowadays what are some of the ways to get the best copy out or at least start with something that has potential I think it sounds a little bit cliche but it’s that it starts with an understanding of the market you know and and really on a deep level you know on a level of what are these people want that goes beyond you know someone wants to make more money or someone wants to get rid of their arthritis you know what does it really like to have arthritis what is it like to every time you go to open a jar – like hesitate because it’s gonna hurt to do that you know what does it like not be able to pick up your grandkids you know if you’re talking to doctors you know what do they really want you know what doctors want is dividend from John Carlton really you have to give him some credit you know doctors are different from chiropractors you can’t like if you’re doing practice management you can’t talk the same way to doctors as you can to chiropractors can’t you say make more money in your practice you know doctors you know have a different image of themselves not as not being money-grubbing you know and they may want more sanity in their life because doctors are constantly pulled in 20 directions chiropractors I think think a little more broadly than maybe about retirement and they also they also there’s a certain they want to have more respect because they’re not considered doctors so there’s that element of you know how do you know how do you address that you know in the copy that you’re you’re writing to them and all markets you know have that but you know do you do the work of really digging down there talking to people and and and and looking you know it’s almost like you got to just see beneath the surface and some people are really good at that like Chris Haddad and you know John Carlton and if you read their copy you can see how they’re talking to that level beneath the surface right it’s like pulling back the curtain and seeing the wizard yeah yeah yeah it’s what people they’re talking to what people you know really want because they know that somehow now what sort of things could people do for those people who are either aspiring copywriters just getting started or people who are in the early throes of a copywriting career what sort of you know what sort of the best angles to take on research where do you go you know who do you who do you want to talk to what are some of the steps that you personally take when you’re starting with something yeah gosh it’s many things you know one of the best ways is to get like the company’s best salesman to sell you on the product right what’s their sales pitch write it down transcribe it um get the president of the company to sell you on it you know if there’s no salesperson or or someone to really sell you directly like what do they do what have they found talk to customers talk to prospects what’s going through their heads what kind of things do they think about are they glad why are they glad they they bought the product what’s the how do they talk about the problem how do they talk about product you know people talk about things in different ways you know to people with diabetes talk about themselves as diabetes sufferers do they talk about high blood sugar do they talk about their glycemic index do they talk about you know what are they how do you if you went on a forum and tried to talk and you weren’t a you didn’t really have whatever disease it was like they would know pretty quickly by the way you talk one so you don’t want to be that yeah you want to be the person that could talk about it in a way that that you would fit in there so oh you know the other thing too is you know the answers are in you you know you can you can it’s called method acting in acting you know you sit down get the chair close your eyes and really pretend to be a person that has whatever problem it is right pretend to be a person with arthritis what would that be like to go through the day like that what would it be like to you know be someone if you’re selling a business opportunity well would you like to be someone that’s making you know forty thousand a year and trying to feed their family and and feels like they want something more but they don’t know quite know how to get it you know what does that feel like what sort of things do they see around them you know do they see a television that’s you know not a big-screen TV because they can’t afford that you know do they do they see a home that’s not as big as they would like it to be what are they feeling are they feeling like they’re not as good a provider or a husband not as good a father as they could be because of that some of the deeper issues that surface level like you’re saying and what’s keeping me from buying this product you know if you really think about yourself buying the product right why did you not buy it you know it’s like I’m gonna look stupid if I buy this and it doesn’t work and my wife’s gonna say why did you pay $200 for this product you know like another product you’ve bought so many products so you know and yes I know that it works but would it work for me you know a lot of times people leave out that aspect of things right it’s like this really works really works with all these people that work for yes but you’ve never addressed the issue of well it works for me because I’ve tried all these things and they haven’t worked it I don’t know that I’m as smart as these other people it’s worked for I don’t know if I have the skills that these other people had so and your copy has to kind of talk about those things that’s that’s great now with your current sort of work with other writers what are some of the most common things you see people doing you know for lack of a better term doing wrong leaving out you mentioned a few of them there and what you just said what are some of the other main yeah because it’s usually over and over it’s usually the same sort of stuff that people are yeah or missing it is you know it’s people think of themselves as writers and they sit down to write and they become writers and they don’t realize that they’re not writers they’re just trying to I hesitate giving you the word sell they’re just trying to convince someone to do something you know and instead they go into this write early you know it’s like what’s a way to get their attention I got to tell them it’s a killer you know thing to do and and when in reality the answer to what they should write is just what would you say to someone that was sitting across from you in a bar you know but you wouldn’t say kinds of things people write and copy these days kill their opportunity to make you know you know you would be more look Joe I know you’ve tried a lot of stuff I you know this is you know this is different it’s different because it’s the first thing that you know gives you this but it also does it in this way you know a little bit of a hint of mechanism to it you know that’s really the biggest thing is just that read the copy you wrote as if you’re reading it to someone to the prospect and did you feel ridiculous when you’re reading it or do you feel like you’re really talking to that conversation yeah yeah so David what’s our projects do you have of your own going on what are you into like right now like if people want to get a hold of you maybe they want some information from you what do you got going on and where should they go well my website is David L Deutsch comm d-a-v-i-d L and then de UT SCH calm and you know mainly what I do these days is I work with you know companies or individuals helping them be better writers you know either directly with writers or with with a company that uses either outside writers or they have their own staff writers and I’ll do training or I’ll do kind of copy supervising or create you know creative directing whatever you want to call it right just kind of getting it up to the next level and you know I just really enjoy doing that really like making other people’s copy I’d rather work on 10 pieces of copy with other people then do one piece of copy on my own right very good so yeah that’s great well you’ve really really really delivered here today I mean it’s awesome and thanks for coming on the show by the way it’s been a real pleasure again an honor to have you on the show so glad we can we’re able to arrange this my favorite subject now for people who listen to the show I’ve talked to everybody next week hopefully someone even half as insightful and entertaining as The post Episode #188 – David Deutsch On How An A-List Copywriter Gets Inside Your Mind And Persuades You appeared first on Drop Dead Copy.

I interviewed Sean over a year ago (originally for my Takeover Tuesday Podcast). Although he has moved on to other pastures… the information he gives is evergreen. Do you feel overwhelmed by sales funnels? Do they seem like the trying to decipher the bracket of the NCAA “March Madness” tournament? Sean likes to keep it simple and direct. He started writing copy for his own projects and then had an opportunity to write some radio and TV ads. It opened up a whole new world away from the shiny-objects of social media sites and web pages. As Sean himself says, it’s like new “old skool”. So listen as he lays out a simple way to start killing it in your business… and how to return to the tried and true. You may re-think what you’re doing or consider new possibilities… when you listen to this episode of the Email Marketing Podcast. In this episode, you’ll discover: Is it possible to have A 90% conversion rate on your upsells? What kind of list-building are you doing? Sean prefers to build one kind of list above all others. The simple way Sean competed head-to-head with the big online players. How to know when the time is right to “Spinal Tap” your business (and how to do it with ease). Is offline marketing more expensive? The answer may surprise you. Mentioned: Sean Mysel on Facebook Takeover Tuesday David Allan’s Make Words Pay Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO David Allan: Hey, everybody, it’s David Allan and we’re back again with another exciting guest and as we are wont to do we have another copywriter on the show today Sean Mysel how are you? Sean Mysel: Good, good thanks for having me David Allan: Yeah it’s been looking forward to this for a bit since we set this up you were actually referred by two of our previous guests for people who we should talk to and so maybe for people who don’t know much about you I think you fly a little under the radar you know from my perspective anyways maybe the other people know more about you sort of give us the you know the superhero origin story from the very beginning how did you get into copywriting marketing and so forth oh sure well actually yeah I started my career really managing sports stadiums and arenas and it you know went for my own baseball to a running on housekeeping unit at in New Jersey the place called the Prudential Center you know the New Jersey Devils played for a while between us played until they moved to Brooklyn and a big part of my job was to actually monitor humans behavior like what did they do when they’re drunk sober you know when the game is going well not well cuz you know you had to adapt how you were gonna run your building in accordance to how they would behave right so what happened is my wife was is a geologist and she got transferred the Bay Area so I had to leave that job okay I wanted to pursue teaching golf it’s a really good golfer I talked about during the summer times I was slow for that for those types of jobs are pretty slow in the summer time and I had to start writing my own ads and I had no I was a writer and you know I could sell but I I you know I could solve $50,000 well you know boxing job but I wasn’t selling my own stuff so I just started picking up some books and just learning how to do it and I figured I didn’t have to be great I just had to just figure it out right and so what happened is I got on the radar a company that did marketing for golf products and so it was a really good fit I started writing ads and then it developed it took an interesting turn because late last year I actually am having clients and I was okay with that first a little bit of course you know is not a lot of cash flow and I got an offer to work with a company that does some online marketing but they do a lot of radio TV and direct mail and I had not yeah all the copyright had done for the clients was all online and I was kind of getting bored with it and so this was a great opportunity but I had never done any of that stuff before you know fast-forward this is in February when I started working with these people and starting you know fast forward to now those ads have sold just in initial sales just a little over four million dollars yeah yeah and so the biggest part of it that I started really putting together was just how you could implement the human element into these operations very inexpensively in turn you know like a lot of people if they were to run online campaign from cold traffic if they were to get a 10% say conversion rate to be thrilled but I’ve been putting up on average seventy nine percent conversion rates I’ve been kind of a sort of preaching tour about you know getting people back involved in your business you know because it’s the numbers just you know they’re just so radically different that’s sort of what everyone’s doing nowadays but then the sort of classic direct response and stuff all comes from Direct Mail of course yeah Madison Avenue type stuff so it sort of went reverse and that’s very exciting I don’t think you know you hear it preached on occasion if you go to you know conferences and stuff no one’s doing direct mail you should be in direct mail it’s kind of like this secret that nobody does you know because they just forgot about it and everything is so again all everyone’s moving towards the hot new shiny object if you will yeah so you know that’s interesting that you’ve got that opportunity to work with a company who was focused on sort of the classic ways of going about things yeah it’s exciting well that’s the thing like when I talk to people who are like I am guys about doing ads on radio and TV they look at you like you’re some sort of alien I hear some foreign life you know like you’re it’s Mork & Mindy right you’re this just that comes out of an egg or something like that and so but it’s it’s for me it’s a source of pride because you know you I mean to get someone who’s not who’s just listening the radio to stop what they’re doing write down something call and order it and not just order it but then you end up up something of doubling their order it’s it take so you know it’s it’s very doable it’s very replicable it’s just it’s just not being done now you know the hot sort of thing in the last couple years has been like funnel this funnel that funnel this which of course have been around forever but now it’s sort of a catch phrase and the flashy new thing yeah what I like about you and some of the people that I you know I have learned a lot from is they kept it very simple like I’m a big follower of Ben settle and people like this we’ve kept the you know their funnels if you will quote unquote very direct very simple and of course you and I talking before you set this up you sort of adopted that model to of something very direct very simple and just old-school I guess but but very very well the thing is is like this it comes from one basic principle and it’s not dealing with freeloaders okay so the so just to give you you know your audience an idea we as a company you know we do some lead gen but it’s it’s really half-hearted it’s just throwing a pop-up on the website if people get on great but the the core customer has been a first-time buyer before they got on an email list right and so because I hear because I see this a lot and and listen everyone’s got their own way of doing thing anything so you know I don’t want to you know trash someone’s methods but it used to be when you would go for anything if you went to a restaurant you expected to pay you didn’t go up there and say hey can I try my stakeout free and maybe I’ll pay for it later it wasn’t like that like I get the whole to see people talk about giving out value well the value that you should be giving out is fixing their problem I just ain’t sure monetary you know compensation so the thing is is that this company and others that I’ve done work for in this fashion just say listen I’ve got something I can solve your problem with if it’s worth it to you you should pay for it but it will solve your problem and that’s just how trade and commerce is done then we kind of ran in this thing David where it’s like all the sudden well we have to start giving out a bunch of free stuff which you know costs even if it’s online its cost wanting to get these people into your funnel yeah and then hope that they buy and I just I would rather deal with people want to solve a problem today not you know we for now yeah I think you’re I think you’re really onto something there because that is sort of the the preaching in the I mean I am industry as sort of you get your list together and then you hammer away on your list you know to some degree like I have taught clients of mine email tactics and stuff so that I didn’t have to do it myself basically yeah you know sometimes twice a day and so forth you’d see these people unsubscribe who were these freeloaders a better term and then he whittled it down to the real core audience eventually and those other people are buying your stuff anyway so yeah you’re attempting to to skip that process that middleman process of the weaning down to the people by having people raise their hand to begin with yeah we’re not even attempting and we’re doing it all right you know like here’s the thing that it’s really critical to understand is that and I know that you know your audience I think will really really enjoy you know this whole idea is if you work hard to put something together that’s gonna solve a problem you have every right to get compensated for that you know and the idea you know but there’s there it goes deeper I mean because there’s a certain mindset like you know you saw this polar if eration of web sites like Groupon and and those types and you know that that attracted a certain type of buyer they were just bargain shoppers and you know these follow-up studies showed that they didn’t come back and buy again so the people that you’re trying to get is the people that pay for about and they’ll say hey listen you know I’m willing to pay this money to fix this problem and those buyers tend to stay around very very for a long time as long as they take care of them that’s notice other things I’ve been involved with outside of you know copywriting and marketing is to when you when you have that initial buy something and person to put up their hand like I I’m a magician I gotta I’m professional magician I do Street magic and I do gigs on occasion I used to only do private gigs but there was a level where you were doing these gigs and then you raised your prices and you’re no longer dealing with the sort of tire kicker freeloader people yep you know you’re people that were serious and as a result like you said you took care of them they kept coming back and there was never any problems but if you were sort of still dealing with those like crappy gigs for lack of a better term right then the people would try to you know what I now would call scope creep or they’re gonna add things on to what they wanted done and at the show or whatever copywriting project or if you you know just those things would just be it this endless hassle yeah exactly so that’s the thing it’s it’s sort of like I make this joke it’s the new old-school way of you know selling your product and it’s not I mean what I’m telling people to do is not new but what what I have helped them do is the one thing that I’ve not seen I am guys generally you succeed at is you know being able to take a customer who comes in and buys you know your trip wire for example and turn that $10 item into a hundred and twenty dollar sale you know and that’s where you know the human element really really helps a ton is it does a couple things you know it adds credibility to your business because people like to talk with people they like to know that there’s another person even Facebook with all their billions of dollars really it’s hard to get ahold of anybody yeah you know when people write about it and you know and ironically as much money as Facebook has they could make more they just had that element there the second thing is that a lot of this stuff with people can actually be outsourced it automated to the point where you can have this court evergreen funnel about and still have it look like something that’s living and breathing at the same time and I I could you know I could tell you numbers were that one day were you know on these radio ads that we were closing ninety one percent of the initial sales one calls center closed ninety-six percent but what I was really most proud of is they were taking you know it’s a $10 item so you know that really was okay fine but they were turning these orders they were more than 10x in these orders Wow and that’s now think about that as a business person I mean if you can get somebody on the phone without ever having to send them necessarily a follow-up letter or email or any of that stuff and you can capture that upsell and that extra revenue right there on the phone when they’re ready to do it you’re you’re saving not only saving a huge amount of money but your cost-per-acquisition goes way down and your lifetime customer value goes way up yeah absolutely now when you have these because once you have the people buying these products and hit the upsell opportunity because it sounds like you’re closing so many of them it’s basically that is the basic packages they get they get everything you’re selling yeah move them into a follow up thing with future stuff or yeah yeah exactly here’s the thing like there’s an old saying when I was selling cell phones and it was just said it was called you know strike while the iron is hot so it’s like if you watch sports you know you see a team that starts getting momentum and you just know they’re gonna make a move because you can see things building right it’s the same thing with with people buying things like if they buy a you know if they’re putting their hand up saying I’m willing to buy this next this item at price to X dollars and you and you can give them a compelling reason to do y you know the Y product for that you know Y amount of dollars yeah you know you can you can walk them right up the ladder so a perfect example of this is like we will take it someone will buy just a very small package you know an item and we’ll say something to the effect of okay David this is great you know we are going you know we’re gonna go and put this order in and something you might want to consider doing as many of our customers find out once they get this or excited about it but then they want to do more they want more or faster better bigger or whatever and so you use a little bit of you know your your experience with social proof with your own customers to solve those customers on what they should be doing next and the big thing is is that well I’ve listened the call after call where the responses oh yeah that makes sense yeah I’ll go ahead and do that and then you just they just you know they basically yeah exactly that’s exactly what it is so the thing is is like you see all these funnels and they’re just I mean you know you see they look like I swear to God like you’ll see these funnels and they’ll have the whiteboard now look like you know the NCAA men’s basketball right you know where President Obama’s like showing you his pics and everything and our funnel is real simple it’s add call sale upsell and that’s it and you do your follow-ups you know what is that you want to try yeah and it does it doesn’t need to get I mean I think any business can pretty much implement that and even they can even implement having people call in I can give you an example I mean a buddy you launched a stress relief okay and we just paid about forty nine bucks got an eight hundred-number well you know I had extensions they could hit you know there weren’t too many and they weren’t that annoying amount that people get crazy with and what we did is we just sent them you know sent them to my buddy who knew all about the the product and we closed them you know a bunch of pre-sales on the phone nice yeah it was that simple see those people actually took auto bill auto-ship so we gave a nice little offer there and there was no need to write us you know necessarily sales letter or any of that stuff it was just straight to the phone your sales letter is a human being right because I mentioned to you personally but about about a month ago when I was in Nashville I was watching old internet marketing DVDs from Australia an Australian yeah camera of the guy’s name now but big a big event we had a bunch of speakers in this one guy and I asked my friend tow cracker who we had on the show ten episodes ago who’s a copywriter he knew who this guy was but this guy was doing exactly what you’re saying he was basically running he he would run small tiny classified ads for like a mount to a tripwire nowadays and then he would actually put his into the metaphysical religious yeah well its here’s the thing that I think a lot of people you know should really get excited about now there’s this argument with what he was doing on that well it’s so expensive and it’s this it’s not actually more expensive than actually marketing on lines more expensive because for a couple reasons a you’re dealing you’re depending on your niche you’re going up against big big players got deep deep pockets okay yeah I like give me an example when I was doing work for baseball bat company I mean they were going against companies that were around for 150 years and with billion-dollar companies including like the east and Louisville Slugger it was just ridiculous I mean we’re getting slaughtered you know because we couldn’t we just could not keep up spending wise but when we sent them a letter they I mean their phones were ringing off the hook and these are letters they weren’t like high high flashy impact yeah yeah sales are on a piece of paper I mean I was it but the thing was is that people if you go if people were to check their in mailboxes compared to their inboxes there’s a lot less fighting going on in your mailbox than it than there is in your inbox yeah and then yeah hardly at all and people still you know attuned to going to their mailbox and checking whereas their inbox are kind of like on you know there’s a terminator right there just trying to kill everything they can you know not kill the innocent you know they need so you know that’s the whole that’s the whole thing it’s it’s not to say don’t do any online marketing it’s just what I do see of people get stuck in is they get stuck in this pattern where you know like I have a group where people they’re just so Facebook centric in terms of their mark yeah and a lot of them are fitness professionals I kind of sit there and go wrong you know Facebook is kind of you know touchy with these types of ads that you got and you know I don’t know if that’s the best place for you to be I don’t know because I don’t you know I I see a lot of these guys trying it but I don’t seal I don’t hear a lot of having that’s on a success with it so it’s just you know that you talk about bright shiny objects it’s a great place to add you know advertise but it just depends if it works for your crowd for our stress level in it sucks because you know these people were trying to reach are busy they don’t have time to sit there and watch cat videos just not what they’re doing that’s but you catch them on a radio ad or you know a newspaper if they sit down to read a newspaper which is a lot of them do then that’s a different story you’ve got their attention stuff people are in with who they’re writing for what they’re doing personally with their personal products yeah because a lot of people – you know I have a friend right now he’s not very technically he’s 39 he’s not very technically savvy he still reads the paper and does sort of like old school type and to reach him you’d have to go through those channels he’s not really technology of course the baby boomers are probably still constitute the largest demographic well so they’re still in those modes so yeah it’s it’s something that’s been pushed to the wayside by the what’s hot exactly yeah it’s again it’s not not a real against Facebook if your people are on Facebook great you should go there but if they’re not I don’t see one you know no there’s nothing saying you have to be on there to you know get customers there’s no rule that says you have to I don’t care what anyone says there’s nothing written that you have to do it that way right well I think that’s one thing I liked about you and having you on the show is that you are contrary yeah you’re not afraid to say things you know people say oh you know this may not be the best situation in fact we’ve found for us it’s not the best situation yeah so don’t drink the kool-aid necessarily there’s still lots of quote unquote that work yeah yeah and actually you know studies show they work better right results pour that out yeah exactly now if people because we have a lot of sort of people who are listening to show who are newer business owners and or newer you know a lot of solopreneurs a lot of copywriters were in their first a second year of getting into their own freelance business and so forth now when you started out of course like you said earlier in your origin story you were writing ads for yourself so this is like a system that somebody I think would fit perfectly for somebody who’s maybe doesn’t have a ton of clients that seems like a perfect fit yeah yeah I mean it’s for me it’s like this like I I think when I started I just picked something that I would spend money on which is you know uh you know sports training well golf is kind of an iffy sport but you know I spent money on hockey you know learning how to play hockey you know I’ve spent money learning how to play tennis so I I for me was a you know if you if you do something you spend money on it’s it’s great because other people probably do as well you know and if you’re willing to reach in your pocket pull out money and give some cash and exchange or something you know that’s a pretty viable market so like when we did the supplements quo benign cold again yeah we we know that people buy supplements I mean you just no siree search will show you that and they’ll show you that they’re buying the types that we’re trying to sell and the reason why I was so into it is because I take I took them I actually used them so I believe in the product I would say this like you know for people like they’re just starting businesses I I really think that that you can’t under sell that I mean I know a lot of people want to get into like that make money on teach people how to make money online right but I will tell you that I think that would be the last place I want to go because it’s just a lot of the people you encounter are really they’re just trying to look for the magic bullet and they’re not you know they’re not like the stuff I teach people do like setting up little mini call centers and stuff a lot of people think that’s just too much work you know it’s actually easy it’s just a couple phone calls and script that’s it you know but it’s just it sounds really bad so I yeah I don’t like I don’t promote it it’s funny I was selling a report and the people bought it were the first bit of feedback that came back he’s like I didn’t realize it could be that easy I’m like you got to read it but that’s why I sold it instead of giving it out for free yeah so yeah but I I am but the but that would be the first thing the second thing is make sure you have a human connection like it when I first start selling golf lessons I took my own calls and I took my own appointments cuz I want you a you know what you can get really good feedback from people yeah you know it’s not this survey thing it’s like you can actually just have a real human conversation like they’ll ask you things and you just if you’re paying attention taking some notes you can I mean you there next dad it’s gonna be better than the one you just wrote there’s the survey right there yeah exactly the survey is like I want to buy something this is what you know that’s the thing that counts the second thing is is that it just really impresses people when they can call somebody and they know that there’s gonna be someone there to answer their call yeah not like 24/7 just you know during business hours well you know and then the next thing you do is just outsource stuff so like I start outsourcing some things like proofing you know editing the copy you know it happened another person looking at it you know taking phone calls you know for like some of the products right so and you know the stuff that I I reserve the you know my attention to is the bigger the bigger ticket stuff I think it for a lot of people who maybe are in the internet age grew up in the Internet age it sounds sort of updated and yeah hard to get started but like you said you were you put together a report sort of details the very simplistic nature of how to set these things up and how so that you don’t have to take the calls yourself and so forth yeah you know I mean I always advise people to do it just in the very beginning right you know when it’s slow and then as you know once you want to you know kind of do the spinal tap thing and turn the dial to 11 you know then you can then outsource it because you’ll know exactly what you know like we like a lot of call centers you can get a call center agent that’s not dedicated meaning they’ll take other types of calls but you can get one these people for 50 cents to a dollar a minute which you know if your average sales call lasts like five minutes and you’re selling you know like a $50 item and assuming they take 12 calls an hour I mean you can do the math I mean but it’s the bigger thing is not only are making the money while you’re not working at that thing that that activity it’s just it just saves you you know saves a lot of reserves to do bigger you know bolder things or making more money but the thing that I’ve really what I’ve come to learn is that when I listen to these calls and I listen to you know we’ve done them ourselves the biggest thing you get back is people are just so grateful to talk to somebody we’ve become so it’s like Skynet you know machines have taken over and you know humans are trying to claw their way back into the picture and that’s where I’ve kind of you know ran afoul of just you know all these insane funnels that people do online yeah it’s like they’re trying to just cut themselves this solves out of it as much as they can they just there’s not yeah you know they’re gonna have to be involved at some level so if people want to get a hold of you they want to you have a great Facebook group and they can said you have a monthly paid membership yep deal the easiest way to get a hold of me there’s there’s basically two ways you can just reach me on Facebook my first name is SCA and last names my is Al you can just friend me on there it’s fine just say you know just tell me you know you listen the podcast will be happy to connect them I’m a little greedy with who I connect with just because you know I don’t want to see a bunch of nonsense but the other way is you know I can is you can go to my website Sean myself calm and there’s contact forms on there you know I don’t do any email I don’t do any email right now for the most part I just because I’m focused on this other stuff but Facebook’s good Facebook’s a good way to reach me and if they’re interested in learning you know how to do a lot of the techniques you know like set up a little call center and you know how to get these conversion rates they’re more you know they can they can just apply you know with being a knight Tom what’s up yeah yeah I have I have you know I can put the URL you know I can give you the URL I appreciate yeah I was it was a lot of fun and I really appreciate the invite so Sean I just want to thank you for coming on today it’s been a real pleasure know people will listen over and over again I guess it’s really demystify the whole process for everyone else we’ll have another exciting guest on next week I never know who it is because I never have my calendar up here to look at but hopefully they’ll deliver [Music] The post Episode #187 – Sean Mysel On Keep It Simple, Human. Direct Sales In 3 Easy Steps appeared first on Drop Dead Copy.

We’re back with Part 2 of my interview with Bond Halbert. If you enjoyed Part 1 we’re going to step it up a notch for Part 2. Bond continues by extending his ideas on email. Open rates… the spam folder… and what “training your list” means in Halbert-speak. He jumps into sales copy… giving away some of the ideas he and his father used to crank out winners. Then he jumps into more of the secrets used in the marketing his book. Answering some of the questions readers of his excellent editing tome may have had (like me). So Happy New Year to you… the listeners who love and support the McMethod Email Marketing Podcast. Disfrutar. In this episode, you’ll discover: Which email had the highest open rate of any sent from The Gary Halbert Letter ( and what it means to your emails!). The contrast between Gary and Bond’s approach to writing and editing sales copy. How much time should you spend on each step of your promotion? Bond spells out what separates the A-Listers. The “Surf Nazi” secret Bond used to compel readers of his book. The Halbert twist on a classic copy idea that will supercharge your sales writing. Mentioned: Carlos’ Bond’s website The Gary Halbert Letter Bond Halbert’s books David Allan’s Make Words Pay Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO Bond Halbert: …so I did it again I went back to our list and I said what are the classic marketing books I want to tie this to and I chose scientific advertising and the Robert Collier letter book right because those are the books my dad recommended all the time first and so I wrote this email and it was pretty successful because it was called you know it got the highest open rate of any of any email ever sent from the Gary Halbert letter – in fact it was at 52 but the last time I checked it was a 54 percent open rate and that’s huge that’s open right yeah absolutely has been unscrubbed right it’s a big list that’s unscrubbed and then built over decades yeah you know it’s easy to get a email and then you what you do is then send another email to only the people who opened your last email you know you can you can play tricks and those numbers this was this was an honest-to-god fifty-four percent open rate on a list that was that’s that it had no filtering no enhancements and just absolutely the opposite of what you would do to boost your in your openness anyway so I sent it and I promoted them I promoted it with those other books and all three of those books made it into the top four of Amazon again right and now when you go and you look at these other books that are classically being sold you get told you know to go buy them now there’s a lot of stuff that I left out about how I did this or how I did that you know and things like you know that to make that all happen but the lesson in that story was to experiment and see if it works and then try and replicate your results and if you can replicate your results then you have something that you can do and take to other people you can take it to other people and the you know I you know this next book that I’m going to be doing that I put out I haven’t really started marketing it yet I just made one quick announcement on Facebook because I saw some people I kind of talked a little bit about other people who they slightly I think you were the first one really because I think you said talks about that it is new book so what happened was I was like oh crap well this is just gonna go off like the borin letters did so I was like okay I’m gonna announce this and I only announced the eBook version because the print version is coming out a little bit next week I think I’m just you know I was collecting blurbs for the back cover nice anyway so this one’s gonna hang out this one has a whole new set of I’m gonna use all the things that I did when the first one to to do all the marketing tricks that they did to make it not only a success but a continued success but I have a whole list of other things that I’m experimenting with in this launch which is different from the pre you know which is different from the previous launch and have never been done before and it may work or it may not but one of the you know some of the early results of some of the stuff is already working and some of the stuff has not been tested yet at all but the thing that my dad taught me was find out you know there’s another thing lesson that he taught me and I’ll explain it when I explain this the book that it you know as you know that I put out is about editing and I what I love about that is nobody’s ever really covered editing in depth and if you look through my checklist and the things that I teach in the book that even some of the standards same old stuff that you’ve heard about for 10 20 years which there’s not a lot of because people don’t really cover editing for sales they you know they’re people some covered editing for writing but this is editing specifically for making more money with your sales messages so what I did was you know but there are some things in and people will talk about and it’s different from the way that everybody else taught and including my father like when you talk about power words and insert you know punching up your language and inserting power words I teach you how to do it with your own power words and not just take a list that was given to you by Gary Halbert or you know John Carlton or other people because you see being kind you’re you’re kind of in there forced and you end up trying to it sounds for us because you’re trying to imitate somebody that you’re not that’s so I teach you tricks and stuff even with standard stuff but there’s a lot of stuff in that was you know I’ve never seen taught by anywhere else in any case so what I did was I said you know I’m gonna do is I’m going to one of the things I hated about the Amazon the way they work is you can never really get the names of your buyers you know they don’t get they don’t share it with you so I had this idea they said you know what I want to give them my checklist but what would make them what the checklist so I grabbed I called these places that make those long notepads that are for realtors you know the realtors will give him your shopping list and you know drop it off at your home and you’ll put it in the kitchen and use it for your shopping list it’s a long thin notepad and I called and I said you know how much would it be to you know dude one of these notepads with the checklist printed on every page and it wasn’t too expensive so what I’m doing is I’m offering everybody who buys a copy of the book and sends signs up at my website and sends me a copy they received her proof that they bought the book I send them one of these notepads for free okay so that means if he’s sending you the notepad yeah I can Chi can afford it because it’s coming out of you know I know it’s it doesn’t take the whole profit of the book away right so but what you do and this is Gary Halbert thinking is you know you sign up I’ve got your email address and I’m going to send you back you’re now on my blog which you’re gonna want to be on anyway because I do not send you no sentence I don’t send you offer every single day and well you know I don’t send you an offer every single day and what I do it’s it’s rare and it’s usually something that’s really worth sharing and I try to be more unique than everybody else and they usually you know it’s if I send you an affiliate offer it’s something that’s really been vetted to make sure that you know it’s not hurting the Halbert name and that’s so that’s even extremely rare but I’ll let you know about things like that and so in this case I’m hashing out the funnel but the thing is I got your email address and so I can send you something but you also got to give me a snail mail address right right you know see how way for me to send it and when you get the checklist that actually comes with another letter you know and this is classic Gary Halbert thinking this is there you know it’s experimenting and solving the problem that other people are doing and you know the the thing is if you know when you’re promoting and you’re doing stuff with books like Amazon and stuff like that you see a lot of people going you know here’s my ten dollar book you know my book is a dollar actually they’ll say my book is a dollar and it comes with ten thousand dollars worth of bonus material you know which is a bunch of PDFs and everything else that you know Under the Sun that they’ve gotten a lot of marketers who are trying to get make nature themselves so I’ll throw it in there and that’s not very how we’re thinking the reason it’s not hearing helper thinking is because now your brain is going on I’ve got all this material to go through and because it’s all this material to go through you rarely nobody ever cracks it open you know these these bonus loaded stuff I mean the you know then you’d have serious yeah you’d have to have a serious obsessive compulsive disorder to actually you know start cracking and getting into all the bonuses that are bought so and you know the other thing is that’s kind of in in a slight way if you know if I bombard you with emails everything that would be annoying so I won’t do it in fact most of the stuff I do is very kind of time-sensitive in the VN I do that on purpose and I filed by the way I follow through with that because one of the other things I learned from my dad is your behavior and how you operate and do everything even if you’re you know not on the ball with everything like I am I’m much more creative and logistical so I I’m like my father I’d be a lousy manager just because one day I’m gonna want to get up and go to the beach instead of handling my mail well one of the things I realize is that you you know one of the things you know you can break trust and lose trust and quite away and it’s not because oh you know this took a little while to get to you that that can happen but it’s more or less because you know they just know it’s it’s not true with you so you know sometimes you call it training the list and what you’re doing is it’s really shouldn’t be called that it should be called proving that you mean what you say so if we tell you hey this does not you know this is on sale for a little while then it’s no longer on sitio and you’ve got to take it off of sale how many times has a webinar been you know the only time we’re gonna have this webinar and there will probably be no replay hey and then the replays out 30 minutes later or they sell you a product that’s $500 and then six months later they’re giving it to everybody for free yeah right what you’re doing is you’re training your list to understand that six months later your product is gonna be free just wait you know you’re training them hey you know unless you know unless you think you’re really busy on this or you know you need the shiny object right now so the thing is you know what I do is I want people I figured out a long time ago one of the first things that I put out and I didn’t even really put it out I taught somebody else and they recorded me teaching them and they put it out is you know some things on how to get really good open rates and really write really salacious and irresistible subject lines to get emails open and it worked works so well that people were tripling their email open rates and people were and I was getting you know people I didn’t even know we’re giving me these great testimonials and talking about how you know awesome this was and doing YouTube videos and things like that on it and I went even further and there because people you know I called up Aweber and I have get response as well and they both said man your open rates are just like through the roof and I you know and I got to admit I did ask him like how did mine compare to others I thought they were okay but I just didn’t know and you know for sure and they’re like no no you got really good open rates and so the reason that was is because I thought like my father I was like you know I did I basically applied his a pile B file speech principles to getting your mail open to getting your email open and one of the keys to doing that is getting people to give you a real email address I mean a non-spam email address because what happens is you you know you have a problem stage fright so you go looking for online and some slick marketer says I have to care for that I’ll give send you my PDF give me your email address and you say okay mr. slick marketer give me I’ll give you here’s my spam email address because I’m not falling into that trap then you go to your spam email address and you look in there there’s 50 to 500 messages since the last time you’ve been there right and you looking at the top and you find the PDF and he’s either done one of two things he’s either delivery and you’re off practicing what he’s taught you or he is not delivered and you’re all back at the Internet thank you God that you can give me really not to notice and you are back at your you’re back on the net looking for your solution either way you ignore those five hundred to a thousand emails right yeah but what happens if you know then you go to close out your email account but you better check your mail and your primary email address but you see in the spam filter there’s ten messages do you just delete them no you check them see the crab I didn’t slip through the cracks you know you scan them real quick okay yeah and so the moral of that story is it would be better for your emails to land into the spam box of a primary email address than into the primary box of a spam email drive address right yeah and so what I was saying so I started developing all these techniques to make sure that you got a primary email address right yeah and and I developed these plans and these techniques and you know and I was thinking who do you really want in your primary email box and they’re people who deliver you value they’re people who don’t you know whose messages don’t come exactly every Monday on Monday you know every Monday at 10:00 a.m. and now there are some exceptions to rules again I don’t believe in absolutes but they are all kinds of things to do with timing to do with the promotions is to to changing their view and their outlook of why they are signing up and all of these other things that would get you a primary email address now that’s not as important as it was when I did that because now you have 50% of the people are checking emails on their phones right right yeah and most people are not some people can again I don’t believe in absolutes but some people but most people do not operate to email addresses on their phones you know for the majority of them they have a primary so they’re more hesitant to give out that email address you need to do more to make them want to give you that email address but one of the tricks I would teach him is to create stuff that they would want to consume on their phone I say so I would say things like do the Gary Halbert on-the-go program will we format at the newsletters so that they’re easy to read on your phones so when you’re on the go and you’re you know in a train or in line or you know the bank of waiting you can it you can make that a productive time by consuming some classic Gary Halbert material that’ll help you know make you become a better marketer and that you know so when you do that you go yeah I want that on my phone so that when you make the decision of which email adjusts to give you give a primary email address and it’s set you know some of the stuff I’m explaining sounds like manipulation but it’s not it really it’s about providing what people actually want so like when you come to my email address okay and you want to give you know you you want to get something from it let’s say the notepads or whatever thing is all most of the you know I’ve gotta polish this cuz I’m like my father I’m like I’ll test this it works and then you know I’ll leave I am NOT yeah what I need is one of those managers that you know that finishes off no I I’m good at hosing off the car and figuring out a quick way to get the dirt off but what I need is somebody who’s gonna take the time with the toothbrush and get in the vents and you know and you know do the detail so do you so never expect detail out of me I’ll tell you that up front and honestly I just not yeah but but I’ll experiment with things and then I will you know and I will do stuff but what I want to also do is I want to be the the thing that I promise so if I tell you which is true I make very time-sensitive announcements there was a one things I did with the boron letters to celebrate my dad’s birthday is I created a smaller travel sized edition okay and I said you know I don’t want this to compete with the larger one which is better for because it’s got margins for taking notes people love to take notes in them yeah but I’ve always wanted one to you know to for travel size because I hear I have bags and it’s easier to fit into some of the smaller bags if it was a little thicker but a smaller size so I resized it and created what I called the Road Dogg Edition because my dad had what he called Road Dogg buddies and I’m one of them where he would cruise around and hit talk shop with go around and experience it with and he called them his road dogs and so I created the Gary and since you can carry this around with you I call the Gary Halbert Road dog edition it’s his birthday I only printed 100 copies of it and I numbered them all and I signed them off and then I had found the the corporate seal that for the Gary Halbert letter and you know you squeeze it and it makes an impression on a piece of paper okay it’s not stamping it’s it will you are I guess technically stamping it but it’s not an ink stamp it’s an impression stamp and so I sealed each one with the with the with that so you know I announced on my blog that these you know the for the first shot getting means and they you know so many of them were gobbled up so quick I didn’t make another announcement right right there and there are people to this day and asking me hey can I get one you know and the thing is what people are really finding out is when I said tell you I said when I tell you I said the time-sensitive offer what after a while this offer is gone or the price it’s for you know a lot of people saying this is you know that’s another thing people will say you know this is this price is is going to double it’s the same thing it’s the same math instead of a hundred dollar product that’s all 50% off for 50 for $50 I’m saying it’s knitted you know get into it now because the price is going to double oh wait a minute that’s that’s a little stronger urge right now so when I tell people to go and sign up on my email addresses or whatever you know and I tell them that there’s time-sensitive there will be people who are like you know hey man I missed that offer and I know the reason they missed that offer is they signed up with a spammy and it is too late I don’t turn around and find you know an excuse to come back and give it to you yet you know I say you know you know and if something is super super highly in demand maybe I’ll find a way to bring something similar out again or do something but I’ll always be considering the first buyers and what what’s gonna continue to make them special so for example I’m not going to do this and I don’t have any plans to I really am NOT but if I were to do another Road Dogg Edition I would make it like version 2 or something cuz the people who because those people holding version 1 we go I still got the original you know I’m I’m not going to you know I don’t want to make the people who spent five hundred dollars on my core go man I spent $500 on it in two months later you gave it away for free now after a certain amount of time now Gary Halbert process was you know charge a lot of money then discount it then maybe give it away for free and then uh you know upsell something else but there’s a way to do that to get the best of both worlds you know and I always find that to make sure that you know the pieces that you’re getting you know what you had to do was you you’ve had to wait so long you know like I could teach you about getting emails opened a lot you know more now like what I just taught you that the the trick about doing the phone thing right the people the getting the the people who had learned from me how to get primary you know or not just primary but to get really high open rates and write great subject lines and stuff like that had it for a long time and had an advantage for a long time you know and so then and then it’s a little different so I’m just saying you know again when it comes to marketing know your know your prospects make them happy make them want to come back for more and not and and the best way to do that is to understand what they want and strive to give them what they want you know and what they need to it’s not just what they want sometimes you got to give them what they need and they don’t know what they need and stuff like that so but anyway that’s so yeah they you know one of those things that I learned from my father are you know learning how to think and the great the great part about that and is we you know my dad and I will can be in a in a roomful of marketers and they’ll be talking about discussing a problem and we we and let’s suppose you in a room with a hundred marketers and they’re veteran marketers we will know there’s always gonna be 20 people who know the real answer that the tried and true tested answer to a marketing problem or to a marketing question and my dad will always be and so will I will always be know the exact answer that that those 20 shark cats are going to actually give you but my dad and I were also the only people in the room that will go okay here’s a unique way to do this and it’s a different that nobody in thought of it’s like to notepad yeah yeah it’s it’s like the notepad thing we’re gonna like okay no here’s a unique a to make sure that you’re getting this so well you know everybody is you know you know while everybody is thinking about well I’m gonna offer 1400 bonuses in the description page of my book you know we’re gonna do you know I got people who are trying to prove that they bought the book to get the notepad before they say you know I actually when I do something like that stimulus II my dad was like you know my dad would go out of way there you know and my dad would do what he possibly did which is remember everything you do really well and write get credit for and everything you screw up I had nothing to do with I say we I mean that’s the hints and the tips and stuff you’ve just dropped here over the last well look about an hour and that’s just flown by are some of the some of the best marketing little tweaks I’ve heard in a long long time and and you’re editing book and so forth is something every person listening to the show if you’re in the copier you write copy and we have a lot of copywriters they should be purchasing that book now that book is book number it’s label as book number three if I remember correctly I don’t process so that means there I mean as the boron letters considered part of that series or is it gonna be two more books in that series or how is that gonna work well okay here’s the way it works the born letters has nothing to do with that in fact the description of the book warns you that this is not a complete copywriting course and that this is not an extension in the moment and what it is is mark in good combating and marketing can be broken up to into what you would call three or four phases okay the first one is the power and all your copy comes in knowing your prospects the power and everything every tip I gave you power in the Domino’s 30 minutes pizza campaign is knowing that the customers absolutely are sick and tired of not knowing when their pizzas gonna arrive yeah okay the power and knowing the power in that the tips I gave you about mobile is an understanding your customer you know reading you know that they’re operating to email addresses on their phone yeah why do I know that because I have a phone you know app when you hear that good that’s just common sense right but the truth is it’s really it’s really big I actually developed that before I got my first smartphone by the way but the well because I knew Bisons the thing is I knew myself so well that as soon as I got my first smartphone my head would be everybody be looking at the top of my head during dinner right yes I’m doing with God you know tell there with my finger scrolling this guy but anyway it’s about calm it’s about knowing your customers so well but at any point you can trigger their impulse to by knowing what to what to provide for them that really are gonna want to buy and they’re gonna eat up and they’re gonna love and how to present it and stuff like that but it’s but it’s it’s research it’s and all your power is in research and knowing your customers okay and I’m gonna give you some tips here in a second about this stuff the second phase after doing all of this the second phase is really about it’s about taking all of these ideas that you have and what to offer and the knowledge you got from the research you need create come up with your big idea and your big idea can be a unique hook it can be a unique offer or a unique solution so unique hook who’s let’s say you know Hertz is number two which makes us try more right that’s not really an office special offer or a special solution it’s a unique cook a unique solution is we’ve got a unique solution to your problem and that can be in the in the in the in the whatever the product of a service that you’re that you’re providing or it can be actually in the form of a marketing solution like you have a solution for getting to p2 to getting to your customers cheaper than your competition does so that you can send them more sales messages or get your you know or in a way that they don’t it can be a marketing solution as well as just a solution for the customer and a unique offer a unique opera’s you know 30 minutes or it’s free obviously but you come up from the research you usually are gonna come up with that unique hook for a solution the Big Ideas my dad would call it and from there now what you have to do is you know at the end and I put these lump these together because they come around the same time now you’re like okay that’s it I can’t wait to tell everybody and you know you start to vomit up on the page the words on the page you start to put down that first draft okay the actual sitting there copywriting the first draft is the shortest part of this entire process if my dad spent 30 days writing you an ad he only spent about hour and a half writing the actual copy and that was by hand right right okay then the third phase is to is an editing is taking that message and polishing it now my dad did a little differently than I did he once he had that big idea he then spent several days polishing that imaginary conversation explaining the unique offer and or you know hook off our solution to the prospect in his head he was perfecting that and that’s because he comes from back in the day when you they had typewriters and once she wrote something out to make any changes we’re time consuming and expensive now what he would then do is that his so his first drafts look closer to to the end product of any good copywriters first drafts dude that I see today because what most like me most people when they put that first draft on paper and then when I go walk around and think about it I have another good idea to add to and they come back and I put that into the copy and then I come up with another solution or another thing and then I start polishing it and the way that I polish it is going over it more or less making changes in moving copy around now my dad still did you know a bunch of edits but what he did was he made very small changes and he would read people the copy that he has written and he would read them over and over and then catch make small changes and he would try and monitor your excitement or desire for the product and/or service and he would do that over and over again now what you want to do is you want to spend a third of your time if you don’t have a deadline right you need to create one if you’re like me and you get to write your own let’s suppose you’re gonna figure even if you have three hours to put out an email now we’re doing the research out of that you’ll get an hour to do the first draft and then do an hour worth of editing if you have three if you have 30 day it’s do 10 days of research 10 days of dogs and hook offers solution giving yourself that time it may just come immediately it may take a while where you’ve got all that any research but cruising in the back of your head but you need to take a walk or start doing laundry or doing something that keeps the front of your brain slightly busy long enough for the back year brain to actually work on the problem and spit out that answer that’s what the these people you know they’re shower aha moments come in yeah right and then they spend that is the last 10 days editing the formula so I’m not saying you edit you know forever and ever and ever but you should spend about a third of the time because what you’re doing then is you’re just polishing that message and in the things that I did differently in this book that being there’s stuff in there nobody’s ever heard before I you know I hear people say you know oh I’ve heard there were several people who are serious seasoned professional copywriters and they’re like man some of this stuff is new and I’m using I’m using this in my copy now I just improved my sales page and stuff like that I will see people who just skip to like the checklist and they’ll say oh well you know it’s basically it’s a good reminder of some fundamentals it’s not it goes way beyond it and even the stuff that you think is fundamental I give you a new twist on it a new way of doing now not in every case there are some things that are basically fundamental like you know reading for your type of but but here’s the thing if you get one new thing out of the book let’s suppose I teach you one trick that you did not know and I guarantee if you actually read the book you learn more than but if I teach you one new trick it keeps 1 percent of people reading one percent of your customers who watch your your your video your BS cells or read your sales copy and it keeps 1 percent more people actually finish your listening to your sales message is it worth the addition you know is it worth the $10 that you’re adding to your bottle you know that you spent adding to your bottom line especially over your career so the you know the the minun is insanely low and ridiculous and the thing is there are there’s a guy he learned some things from me through the through the book and he is one of the best copywriters I have ever seen he was actually trained by my father name is Caleb he’s he’s that he’s the one of the best copywriters I have ever seen I edit professional copywriters stuff all the time and give them oh you I would change this move this answer it’s and change this suggestion or make suggested changes and everything he one time to throw out this piece of copy and I was like man that’s really great there’s only two small changes that I would make and that was the smallest number of changes I’ve ever seen in anybody’s copy that I’ve read right and he did make those two small changes he was like wow that’s really good that is that you know he was looking for you know they go to that level of perfection the great copywriters do and he did that adhere air and it did six times add cost it was it just blew everything way and I didn’t result I didn’t know the results I said you know there were no results before when I first read it I was just saying you know man that is superbly great copy one of the things in his funnel I had actually given him one of those marketing solutions ok you know because it you know at the beginning what I was known else and you get known for something a beginning I got known for open rates right now I’m gonna be known as the editing guy for a little while and then I’m gonna be you know but the real truth is I’m more of an idea guy I’m one of the few people who will give you a unique idea that’s that other people you know that you know people haven’t thought of I’m back to answering your question so I’m working on products that they actually fulfill you know showing you how to do the research and showing you shortcuts to get over your writer’s block and inspire you to come up with good uniques hot offers and solution but the editing process was done first okay and it was the easiest to done first and I could have just made it a book on editing but I made it part three on purpose and I saw one person actually say they say you know what I got to say I got part three and I was reading the B in the introduction and everything and I don’t know if this was done on purpose or not but it really made me want to get part 2 yeah so it absolutely does and it was done on purpose yeah I remember one time my dad knew this guy who had produced this low-budget movie I think it was surf Nazis terrible terrible movie when they think he released it his surf Nazis part everybody made the assumption that it had to be relatively decent because there must have been a first one you know made this worth seeing the sequel and everything and of course they were in that there was no surf Nazis part one I am working on part two I am working on part one because again I’m not out to fool people into doing it it’s just that this portion of the formula was written first and it was the easy it was the easiest one to complete you know to compile all the information and show it and the other thing I liked about it that I’m particularly proud of is nobody’s ever covered the subject in depth my dad’s portion of the editing formula is five steps okay that’s all it was and his editing advice and my dad gave everybody more copies than anybody on earth is you know and what I wanted to do was I would take patterns and things that he you know that I would see in his great copy and I and I learned to do this when I was helping other professional copywriters with their copy and I would end up creating formulas that would teach them and show them how to do it and to improve their copier and make it better and I’ll give you I’ll give you one tip out of the book that’s a perfect example of a very traditional thing taught in a better way there is a classic you – I – you formula that everybody talks about and they spend that you know for every time you use the word I you want to use the word you like it should be to 20% to 80% so if you use the word I twice you should be using the word you 80% you were you’re okay because it’s about making it about your prospect that’s right that’s not in reality the way that I saw and all the great copy I read so when you see the magic IDU formula everybody think oh you know I know about that right what I teach you that’s different is this my dad’s copy all the I took on the negative and the you got the benefit so I was sleeping in my car and down and down on my luck and struggling to make sales you’re still telling their story but they’re in their mind they’re going hey that’s my problem too right you know I still you know every time I got on the plane I was I had so much fear that I felt crippled in my chest woods you know I I found it hard to breathe and it felt like I was being compressed and you know I said claustrophobia started to feel felt like claustrophobic and you’re describing their story but that’s when doctor gave me something which which will make all of that go away for you and you’ll never have to you know never feel fear feeling the fear of flying ever again and you’ll be able to be a world traveler and feel you know and feel the sweet release and get rid of half the anxiety of booking plane airplane tickets so all the benefit was on you right he took all the pain on the eye so it was now you know I never see you know and I noticed that and I’m like it’s a better way to say instead of saying oh I found two eyes I need to write eight you and yours right so instead what it is is ice I play your song but I put it on me because I’m not saying you know you know are you know you have a problem and you are you always finding typos in your work is your type is your editing process is your is your coffee so wonky people won’t continue reading it you know that’s first of all it’s more of like putting you on the spot and you’re want to defend yourself right that’s right hey and you say of course well yeah it’s wonky but I gotta put it out I’d rather make moves and motion over meditation and I’d rather you know you start defending yourself if I tell you my copies always want and then I say you know with the this editing formula your copy will start sounding you have the smooth professionalism that you’ll see and copy written by masters like Gary Benz again Gary Halbert right right and so then you’re like okay yeah that’s what I want you know it’s the whole the dynamic changes there and so it’s better than just counting eyes and using yours okay so that’s that’s a classic example that’s in the book that explains to you this is what you think is a classic example of sort of an editing technique but it’s actually taught to you a little bit better than I’ve seen other people teach it. The post Episode #186 – Bond Halbert On Legendary Marketing Lessons The Halbert Way (Part 2) appeared first on Drop Dead Copy.

This is a different kind of episode. You could say it is about family. More than a year and a half ago I (Dave) recorded an almost three-hour interview with Bond Halbert. He told great stories about his legendary father, Gary. Cautionary tales? Life lessons? They’re fun and hopefully will bring a smile to your face… while giving you some ideas to reflect on as you follow your own path. Bond was very gracious with his time and this is part one of two I will be releasing here. So Merry Christmas to you… the listeners who love and support the McMethod Email Marketing Podcast. Enjoy. In this episode, you’ll discover: The Gary Halbert secret to success. Once he found it…he never looked back. How did Gary get into direct mail? A semi-weird job is only the start. Gary didn’t enjoy building a business…it wasn’t writing ads…THIS is what Gary was all about. Cautionary tales Bond reveals about Halbert family life. How Bond pulled off having Amazon sell his book for him. Mentioned: Bond Halbert’s website The Gary Halbert Letter Bond Halbert’s books David Allan’s Make Words Pay Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO David Allan: Bond Halbert on the show today, Bond how are you? Bond Halbert: I’m good thanks for having me David Allan: Yeah, I think it was Pauline Longdon who connected us if I remember correctly may have originally I mean I’ve listened to your dad’s stuff and read your dad’s stuff for many years it’s actually why I got into copywriting which I’m sure is apretty common story from the peoplwe’ve had oh yeah but you actually lived it… Bond Halbert: Yeah, started his career the day I was born. yeahDavid Allan: Wow something I didn’t know. Since then of course now I never got to meet your father because I got into this long after he had passed away unfortunately and you know I don’t want to turn this into a show by your father but maybe you know take us back to those sort of halcyon days if you will when you weregrowing up for people who haven’t read maybe some of the books that been put out about it you know your of your dad’s life and his connection with you and and your brother and sort of give us sort of the maybe see you know a few insights into how crazy a time that was that. Did people realize this was really crazytime or was it just you know I seem like normal business stuff going on? Bond Halbert: Well tell you what – first I never mind talking about my father that’s I love talking about him so that’s not an issue and I don’t mind if you ask me any question to do with my father the other thing is you know I’m gonna give you some answers that I don’t typically give so that you’re not hearing just the same old story of you know him and my relationship from you know the get-go and stuff like that. My dad was a very strange character and one of the things that I always separate his life in two phases the way that I think about it because he he radically changed his existence in the way he thought and the way he operated at different parts in his little life and I think a lot of people do that I just don’t think they do that to the extreme with which he did it so to give you an idea you know my dad was born in a very small town and he lived it he lived in Barberton Ohio and that’s where he grew up and he was a guy who you know according to my grandmother was always walked out of the house with a pocketful of vegetables and a bunch of books to read this he always had his head in books I think that was his escape instead oh I think that you know a lot of the stuff when I tell you kind of led up to him being a master of persuasion things and these aren’t things that I really shared very much before with I’m giving sort of an exclusive well because I get given everybody the same old answer about how he picked me to start you know mentoring so so much but the one of the so that was one thing that was going on and I found that I that I learned a lot of stuff about my father in retrospect that I think you know that I don’t think he really recognized about himself there’s two things and mainly in particular one is I find that most people having a relationship with money and it’s based on emotions and you know what they what they are attachment to it when they feel like when they’re growing up so like you ever wonder why somebody’s got three billion dollars yet they still keep working really hard and you know they don’t take time off and it’s because they for the most part I’m not saying this is everybody I don’t believe in absolutes but for the most part what they were is kind of emotionally scarred about money about being poor when they were kids you know they remember these issues and so they swear to themselves if I’m never gonna be poor again you know and or they or they have a different you know my dad had a very unique relationship with money which was he loved to make it but he also loved to blow it it was really strange he did and I think when he was growing up what he did what it had nothing to do with the money I think well I think a very first thing that happened with him was my dad wasn’t an ugly person at all but he wasn’t you know he wasn’t classically handsome you know what I’m saying he wasn’t you know he wasn’t gonna show ya what just wasn’t gonna be discovered at Schwab’s pharmacy and thrown into the movies all of a sudden you know and he had glasses and back then when you had glasses especially thick coke bottle type glasses you know it was a you know it was more of a killer but he also didn’t have money you know his parents you know they were they were working very working-class but they weren’t they weren’t vacationing in Paris or anything like that and I think the and he was very smart and he was very well-read and I think what he learned to do was hone his skills of persuasion because that was his power you know people get their power from being cute or to get their power from being you know having wealth or being popular with stuff like that I think he got his power from learning to be a really persuasive guy and being pretty intelligent and so I think that led later on you know in the story of his life to becoming a great copy yeah then the next phase of his life is he wanted to get out of his small town so he went and joined the military as most men did in mid small Midwestern towns who you know had no chances really going to college isn’t what’s gonna be paid for and stuff so he became a military policeman and on a base in Germany after World War two and so he went and joined that not realizing I guess well maybe he didn’t do it at the time but he just was not built for the military you know Perry how it wasn’t a guy to really take orders from stuff like that and I think that yeah well the funny thing is I think there’s I think that’s where he learned to be learned to hustle I mean he talks about hustling pool sometimes when he was younger than that in between you know you know late teens and going into the military but he would you know that’s he did little things like loan sharking and he would he was not really built for the military in fact he told me this is also something else I think it’s an exclusive he told me he said you know there was this one guy who was his sergeant was in charge of going around and talking to these guys and getting them to re-up to re-enlist in the military and you know they got some you know they were incentivized to do this but he did they didn’t even bother asking just they just knew he was you know he was not a fit and was not going to stay or anything like that so now he comes back to Ohio after that and he had married his first wife in in in Germany cut came back to Ohio where he had sent it while he was finishing his stint he had sent first wife back and they had three children together and then what and was you know he was just right now he’s just a typical guy he’s you know he’d be cooped falls into sales he does a lot of doggy bows was the people who they were the people who sold you postage machine and they worked with so that was kind of critical in making this jump from working in face-to-face sales into working to remote-control sales via direct mail and he got ahold of these guides called the Direct Mail guides and he just instantly knew what he wanted to do the rest of his life and he said he wanted to go into direct into into marketing this all happened right around into an argument with his boss it was like the day before I was born before wearing or about wearing orange socks to wear and I had that really pissed them off and my dad sitting there talking to my mom and he said you know by this time he had divorced his first wife and he’d marry my mother and they had already had my Kevin and he turned to her and he said you know I just you know I life doesn’t get better than this I just hate it I don’t want to do it and she goes well why don’t you do what you want to do and follow dream and he’s like well you know I guess will you support stand by me when you you know when you do this and she said sure so then they started doing G started following his dream of being in direct mail he started reading all of the books I’m you know running test mailings and making offers and stuff like and they would even some I remember they tell me story that they’re sitting in the dark because they’d used the electric money for the electricity bill on postage to do a test mail so that’s another insight into my father my father was an all in kind of guy if it weren’t for my mother would be wouldn’t have had any stability growing up and anyway so that then he’s you know testing and making issue problems and he comes and he stumbles upon a breakthrough edits go on for an hour explain why all the things that made this a breakthrough because he it wasn’t just one but he ended up writing what turned out to be one of the most widely mailed sales letters in history selling coats-of-arms people’s family histories and reports and stuff and then you know that’s how you report and then they would sell you a fancy you know that you could fancy report that you could frame and then they would sell you coat of arms and other heraldic items and then he goes from being you know an average you know I’m gonna lower middle class guy to being like the richest guy in town and I remember all maybe touch yeah I was gonna say maybe touch on that because we when I found out about your father it was because I had purchased a product which he had written a sales letter for according to what I know anyways and I can still remember being the feeling of waiting for that package to come and reading the sales material you know which to me at the time as a 19 year old was just like here’s what its gonna contain and I was reading the bullets and stuff which I didn’t even know we’re called bullets then and I say man this is gonna be so cool you know the one thing not to do when you step into a gym or whatever and I thought it was your father years later probably a good ten years later maybe close to 10 years I was like that guy must know something because I could still to this day even talking right now feel the anticipation of that package arriving and what it was gonna contain and so maybe you know I did the research and your father of course I heard about the coat of arms letter and then purchasing you know a floor and then a whole building and all this stuff to catch to go through the checks that were coming in so I’m eager to hear from your perspective sort of what that particular period was like and how crazy it was I was hectic you know my dad’s ego kind of exploded but my dad had this epiphany which was he needs to stop listening to everybody because the way that that worked is you know he was going through and trying all these things and you’ll hear people talk about gun to the head marketing is afraid a lot of people don’t understand that was my father is the one who kind of even coined the phrase for that because what he did was he sat down after getting no results and he said you know okay Gary imagine somebody’s got a gun to your head and he’s gonna pull that trigger if you don’t make this work what would you do differently and so he started great that’s when he started breaking the rules of Direct Mail he said okay I wouldn’t rail it bulk-rate because that tells everybody it’s just a piece of junk now and I would use an actual honest-to-god stamp and I wouldn’t you know I’m not gonna put in teaser copy other than maybe first class or personal on it and he started making these changes based on his own thinking and it worked and because of that my dad learned to never do things the way that other people did it again and it was everything in his life like the George Costanza school of living yeah you know all of a sudden he’d give his children unique names back when nobody did that now if now everybody’s misspelling and name to make your name unique on purpose and doing all that when I was growing up I was the only kid with a unique name that you couldn’t translate into something else you know people would come over from Russia and then they would say okay I got an American I said no all the sudden they become apps right I was the only one who had this completely unique name that nobody could you know I mean there was no nickname for it anyway but it was everything everything he did and thought he thought about doing his own way or you know doing it in a different way and many times he would experiment and things would get all fubar sometimes it would all work but he started you know that changed the way that he thought about everything because he’s now got massive success lots of money and he got it by not listening or giving the crap what anybody else thought and he continued with that for the rest of his life and so he was a fully committed guy and then what he would do is you know he ended up with having like no respect for money and the fact that he never took money and invested it and you know would buy properties and he always felt that you know if you don’t spend it somebody’s gonna come and take it away from you anyway and so one of the things that he would do and I really didn’t realize this till later in life is he blew all of this money on purpose because the biggest rush my dad got wasn’t from writing good copy or making something that would work and build the business it was from being almost dead broke to making a huge winner that’s what he would really do all the time it was like a gambler you know doesn’t just you know doesn’t feel excited because they got one blackjack hand a gambler feels excited when they’re really down and then they come back big okay that’s where the that’s where all the endorphins and everything started rushing well unfortunately for your children because we were on this rollercoaster ride I mean we would go from being the richest people in town to seeing my dad scrounge for change in the in the cushions to look you know get gas to put gas in the car to be back on top and rich again six months to being you know to blowing it all I mean in no I mean he really knew how to blow money and have nothing to show for it it was amazing my favorite example is he but one time he bought in nineteen or I think you know it’s like a twenty-something foot houseboat and he bought it from some astronaut for like I don’t know like 11 to 19 grand I forget the exact amount I remember I was cutting the check for it but he bought this houseboat and then I added it up he ended up would make changes and say you know what that would pull that out put in linoleum I don’t like the linoleum a put in wood and he would hire people to paint it and people would painted it like $60 an hour because they were just both mechanics right and he spent a quarter of a million dollars refurbishing that stupid boat several times and it’s sank twice I think you know from fresh water line the filled with fresh water and the boat would the boat went down in the dock that was it he would pick up and move all the time my dad we moved yeah under at one time this is another example of all in I called him one time I was here in LA and I said hey what you doing he says Oh or actually I think he called me and I said what are you doing he says oh I’m down in Florida and I go oh what are you doing down there he said I moved I said white he told me he’d moved he said you want to come down and we’re gonna take a trip down the keys you want to come down and go scuba diving how’re your lessons and I said okay and I went down there and then we took her tripped out of the keys and on a whim we met up with his uncle Jack my grandfather’s brother and he managed properties down the piste and we found this great little place that had a little house and a dock right on the Gulf of Mexico we moved to the keys and then even in the key he’d go keep s the back city marathon and we were down there for like five years and then I came back to LA to I went back to finish school to do other things with you know my life and then he would just go back and forth between the keys in Miami all the time you know I mean moving not like you know I’m gonna keep the place here and keep a place there he just say you know I would need to be you know Miami sucks and hustle and bustle and you go down to the keys and then keys you’d be like oh man everybody’s really you know it’s slow down here pace and nobody’s you know this isn’t my kind of people and everything they go back to Miami you know I mean he just go back to him for he’s never really happy that way but so you know it was rocky it was a rocky up and down the thing but the great thing is is I learned to take benefit from the way that my mom lived and thought in the way that my dad did and the way that my father did was you know he taught me to not accept everybody standard answers for things just because people say you can’t do it or it’s never been done doesn’t mean it can’t be done and he taught me to experiment and the one thing that all of this really did show me and teach me is that you know the quality of your life is based on how you spend it and how we are and how you spend your life and how you think you do need enough money to you know see your children aren’t in need of medical attention food you do not need you know after a certain amount of money you just swap the stress for you know how to you know how to invest this without having to pay a lot of taxes on it and not let a lot of people know what you’ve got because you know if you’re gonna be kidnapped and robbed I mean you know if we were the targets of a home invasion robbery and later on with my own success I was targeted um but fortunately for me through all the things that my dad went through I was able to learn from his mistakes and hold off you know repeating and he you know it’s cuz he taught me I give him credit for it but I give him credit for the reason that I didn’t have to go do a stint in boron I give him credit for the reason that people you know didn’t I didn’t you know get to be a home invasion robbery because you know I had learned from what he had done and I’d learned you know learn from his mistakes as well as from his his wins and you know so for the most part I’m I’m a guy who you know figures out what I would I like and what I want to do you know I get invited to speak in places all the time and for the most part I don’t enjoy it so I don’t do it you know and I did do it a lot and I you know even spoke sometimes when I was with my father at conferences and stuff you know he’d be throw me under the bus to say you know I gotta go the bathroom go up there and give my a pal beep I’ll speech I know a lot of my father’s speeches you know by heart but you know I figured out you know the it’s about how I want to spend and live my life and looking at the more longer-term overall picture and you know understanding that I’m gonna change you know right now I’m at this stage where I love spending time with my children and everything but well my kids children are teenagers they’re gonna be like you know whatever dad and they’re not gonna want to hang out with me nearly as much and so you know that’s the time where I plan on traveling more absolutely but you know the thing is most people you know they think oh you know why my kid he’s gonna always love and you know want to spend time with me I see life as this progress or this journey and you know try to learn to have fun at the beginning in the middle and at the end of the trip sounds like that’s something you’ve taken from your father as well because he didn’t never seem to be a dull moment but he was clearly and yeah true but he never prepared for the next phase right that’s the that’s the only downside I would say about what even the way that he behaved is he never prepared for the next phase do you think now when he passed away I learned a lot about business cuz I was lucky enough to meet somebody and we’ll actually talk a little bit about this in a little bit because there may be a connection with your father to this but from a guy named Arthur Jones who had started the Nautilus exercise equipment company who was out of Florida now he told me and I think it bore out that he never wanted to leave any money to his kids whatsoever because he thought it would destroy his kids if they were just handed money so I don’t know if your father had a similar you know similar reservations about you know leaving somebody rich who didn’t acquire through their own means or or whatever you know what I mean I mean does he have any hang-ups in that regard or would say anything in that regard well the only thing he ever said one time we were cruising in a car I remember this and they said well are you gonna fill out your will and everything he goes no I’m gonna laugh at watching you know your your siblings and everybody fight over everything and he said I’m not gonna give anybody a profit motive to kill you know for me for me to die so that was the I mean that was really it was that quick it was that cheap it said but he had once told me he says you know I never ever worried about you and I said why is that and he said because you always get your way he goes you know and I did indeed took some good credit for that he’s like you know if you want something it doesn’t make any difference what it is you get it and you get it from people if you need something from people or you get you know you’ve never failed to get your thing so he was never worried about me me or any of us being able to get what we want and the funny thing was is when he when he listed up and so-and-so is going to do this and so it says gonna do this and so it’s gonna do this he was wrong he got everybody’s got everybody’s role incorrect when it went he actually did pass away but the but you know and I’d said to him you wanted to go but let me get this straight now Siri she wanted so-and-so to get this so and so to get this so-and-so to get this and so forth and he goes yeah he said yeah but he never left oh he didn’t he didn’t leave even official will but it was funny because everybody knew you know if you know if you could be with my father for you couldn’t be with my father more than a day without hearing from me you know I mean because he about me because we we were that close people talk about their you know being close with their parents and everybody loves their parents sure but I knew absolutely everything about my dad and he knew everything about me and nothing was left unsaid in fact it’s funny because when people get mad at me they try and send me some hate mail and it’s always like your father would not be proud Baba like this and it’s hysterical because it’s like yeah you who didn’t who never knew him and he would be very forget the newsletter where he talks about how I’m the wisest person he ever knew it’s like somebody trying to attack you with a nerve right it’s it’s it’s more humorous now they’ve still got you no ill-will toward it’s just that they don’t realize that they’ve chosen a weapon that just will not work and they also you know some things that they don’t realize now I don’t I let a few people know this but you know it’s because it’s it you have to understand I don’t need to explain this after you understand what an immense level of respect and credit I give my father but the truth is you know he the the most he ever took home was from a business that we built together and that was based on my idea nice yeah and a lot of people don’t know that because I you know I don’t you know the thing is when you were you know Frank Sinatra’s kid you never you don’t even bother trying to explain or sing one of his classics or anything like that because these people well you know they don’t they don’t want that you know people read the the boron letters and like you know I just imagined he was my father they basically you know and you don’t want to take that away from him and it’s not fair and it’s it’s not kind and it’s not in any way whatsoever and I don’t take anything away from my father and so you have to know that like when he first passed away everybody came to me and said you know can we interview and ask you questions about your dad I said the same thing it’s at the beginning of this which is sure I mean I love talking about my dad we can make this a hundred percent of them my dad then after a little while they realized oh wow you know because I’d answer a question and explained something like well you really know what you’re talking about and so eventually the interview started getting to be about 50/50 you know about my dad two years this this particular one is the longest interview I’ve given about my father in a few years because they end up going well how did you do this or how did you do that because well my dad taught me to do was tinkering spearmint and try and create new things and you know you could write you know my dad when he wrote an ad if it broke even other people would go and make a business off that and he knew how to do that too he they would break even then take the names that they got and back in them and that’s where the profit came my dad if he broke even would take the ad and rip it up throw it away and go strike do something else he didn’t he never played it’s like playing baseball he never shot for singles and doubles that none of that counted to him he either wanted to strike out or hit a homer no it was the rush yeah yeah and he became the home homerun King but so many of the ads that broke even and so forth went and lied dormant or nothing was done with them and he would even say you know you give this to a guy like Eric who was a good you know good with money and management you know he’d make a million dollars off of this but I you know you know that’s you know my dad was not about building businesses neither am i he was about tinkering and you know patting himself on the back and then getting bored and finding something else out to tinker right you know and what he would do is you know a lot of it was like problem solved like with you know in the new book that I that I just recently put out and well I was sitting in there thinking well let me go back and you know my first goal when I put out the first book which was the boring letters now my dad had already put out the boring letters in fact there’s digital copy online for free you can go to the Gary Halbert common read but what I did was update the book right and put it out so that it’s available in Kindle and print format and stuff like that and it became wildly successful in fact it was a surprise to me considering you know the day and age where everybody likes something for free and what happened was I didn’t just put that out and makes you know that wasn’t the book the success of that book isn’t based on me what is though is I got Amazon to actually sell it for me because when I did this everybody won like well I want to be a number one bestseller I’m like well that’s it that’s easy it’s a small niche you know we can do that and what else do you want from this and I said you know I went to Amazon to sell it for me and so I went through all of these different kind of I did these different promotional strategies somebody seen or gotten glimpse of but other things I did that was the first one to see you and I would and I built a list and I’m gonna cut to the short I mean I could give you a long list of things on how to become a how to get Amazon to help sell your stuff for you but the first thing I did was think you know there’s an algorithm that they determine what book that they want to put next to another book and what book they want to sell especially the physical print book because back then this was before prime was really big and what would happened is you would see you would go to buy a print book and he realized that if he spent just 20 more dollars or whatever you would get the shipping free right and the shipping cost were about the same as the book so it’s it was like why not choose another book to buy exactly so I said to myself one of these one of these people really want to make that decision because it’s an algorithm but the algorithm is written by people human being made the decision that this is what they wanted this suit and so what I did was I went and ice you know I said they’re probably gonna see it stay number one for a while so I set up my promotions so that it would sell and then it’s instead of being everything time for a big mad rush I would just let it go until you hit number one then I would ease off the promoting and then when it slipped it too I would add some more promotion or release some or make another announcement somewhere or give another incentive for people to buy it and I would go back and forth and do that so I would say okay now we’re gonna do a webinar and if you send in and show me a copy of your book and then I would have them give me advertising and I would say okay if you want in on this next webinar you have to hold up a copy of the Boren letters I don’t care what copy it is and the reason the reason for that is if you’re into marketing and you’re on Facebook or Twitter or whatever you have other friends who are into marketing – yep and so when they wake up and see three of their friends with these big grins on their face a showing up they’re showing up a bug they said they said go what’s that book that social proof and the social clout there is really insane right and so what I do and so they would buy it and so what a lot of people did realize is I was building a list I was building a list of people and then what I did was I got you know so Amazon sees if there’s a lot of organic reviews they see that this has stayed number one for a while it’s not a cheap book I never sold mine for a dollar I know it’s a lot easier to see because the Amazon ranks you on number of books downloaded not sales may not dollar about dollar amount okay so your number if you’re a number one best seller you you know in a small niche you sold you know a certain number of books but somebody who just you know got a bunch of people to download it for can kind of beat you if they have a good sized list and they’re doing that but I kept it number one added at the prep the prime price that they want right which was $9.99 any case um because I’m because you know what if you’re gonna say people who bought this also bought this book it’s not gonna usually be a in the me in the short term but not in the long term and so then what I did was I told everybody to buy somebody else’s book and that immediately tied it to it now this fist it was John Carlton’s book because John had released his book about a week after I had released mine okay and I told everybody to go buy his book and a bunch of people did and so Amazon saw that you know people who bought this watch this and they connected it all together yeah well John John Carlton calls me and he says how’d you get people to how did you get Amazon to send an email to my book buyer selling your book I didn’t even know they did this you know I was just put it trying to get my book into that people yeah and I said really and then this is what good marketing is about that my dad taught me which most people miss it’s experimenting and when you hit something right you try and see if you can replicate the results of doing that The post Episode #185 – Bond Halbert On Life Lessons From A Legend. The Gary Halbert Way To Success. (Part 1) appeared first on Drop Dead Copy.