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How can we make systemic design operational for sustainable design?🔧Systemic design is dedicated to handling complex systems, complex questions, and complex issues. Sounds familiar with Sustainability? But if things are so complex how digital product people willing to design sustainably can embrace them? In this episode, we dive deep into the world of systemic design and how it can help us increase digital sustainability. Don't miss out on insights from Sylvie Daumal (acclaimed author of 'Design d'expérience utilisateur' ) and Thorsten Jonas (founder of the SUX Network), as Gaël Duez discusses the operationality of systemic design in Tech.❤️ Subscribe, follow, like, ... stay connected the way you want to never miss our episode, twice a month, on Tuesday!📧 Once a month, you get carefully curated news on digital sustainability packed with exclusive Green IO contents, subscribe to the Green IO newsletter here. 📣 Green IO next Conference is in Singapore on April 18th (use the voucher GREENIOVIP to get a free ticket)  Learn more about our guest and connect: Sylvie’s LinkedInThorsten’s LinkedInGaël's website Green IO website 📧 You can also send us an email at greenio@duez.com to share your feedback and suggest future guests or topics.   Sylvie and Thorsten's sources and other references mentioned in this episode:SUX network and its SUX podcastDesign d'expérience utilisateur - 3e édition: Principes et méthodes UXApple’s Mother Earth videoFuture WheelThe Fifth Discipline: The Art & Practice of The Learning OrganizationSystems ArchetypesSahel : le recul du désertSécheresse, désertification et reverdissement au Sahel Pour une Hydrologie RégénérativeCan rock dams combat climate change?Structured dialogic designDialogic Design Science Transcript Gaël (00:17.)Hello everyone. Welcome to Green IO, the podcast for responsible technologists building a greener digital world, one byte at a time. Every two Tuesdays, our guests from across the globe share insights, tools and alternative approaches enabling people within the tech sector and beyond to boost digital sustainability.You know, when I discuss with fellow digital sustainability enthusiasts about sustainable design, I often hear these statements. It's systemic. We need to see the big picture beyond our own company, our own clients. We need to fundamentally change the way we think about design, if we want to design for a better future. We must move from human centered to planet centered design. I couldn't agree more. But I also recall a conversation I had some months ago with a researcher in economics. We were talking about Donella Meadows’ book, « Thinking in Systems », and her position was, well, let's say abrupt. It's a good idea on paper, but it's not operational. You cannot modelize it. So, I was wondering, how operational is it for us working in the digital sector? How do we transform into actions the statements which I listed previously? And to answer these questions, I'm glad to be joined today by two experts in systemic design: Sylvie Daumal and Thorsten Jonas. Sylvie is based in Paris and she is somehow a rockstar in France when it comes to systemic design, a field she has been invested in since the early 2000s. She wrote a book last year, « 58 tools for systemic design », a very technical book, which has been acclaimed in the French design community. And on a more personal note, I'm so happy that we managed to record this episode, which has been rescheduled four times, I think -  record broken.Gaël (02:20) Thorsten is based in Hamburg. He has been in UX design for almost 20 years, if not more than 20 years, and he founded Sustainable UX Network two years ago. A community who has gathered an impressive momentum with more than 2000 very active members across Europe, and all over the world. We share quite a lot with Thorsten, who is a fellow podcaster, a fellow speaker, a fellow community builder, and whom I see the name popping up on every cool event I'd like to join. And yet, we didn't manage to meet until today, despite me spending quite a lot of time in Hamburg when I was working with my former colleagues. So, welcome Sylvie, welcome Thorsten. Thanks a lot for joining Green IO here today. Thorsten (03.01)Thank you very much for having me. Sylvie (03:04)Thank you, Gaël. Gaël (03:07) So, the big, big question I stated in the introduction: how can we make systemic design operational? And maybe, before jumping on the question, maybe we should remind ourselves, what is systemic design and why is it useful? Sylvie, do you want to start maybe with some kind of a definition?Sylvie (03:32)Systemic design is dedicated to handling complex systems, complex questions, complex issues. It is used mostly when you have questions about any kind of subject that involves many people, that involves many bots. The fact is that systemic thinkers are people who have a special angle to see things. The system is not really existing on its own, it's just the way that you see things. And what is the big characteristic of the system, is the fact that to identify many, many parts in a situation and all the parts are in interaction, one with the other. That's the reason why it is most of the time very complex, because it creates what we call causal loops. It means that one cause can have a consequence. A consequence will have a cause on another part of the system and so on.So... at the very end, you can see that every action, every interaction has a consequence on the whole system. So, it's a way to really envision the whole situation. But most of the time, all the problems are complex. Gaël (05:11) Which makes it useful also for digital design, digital services. Thorsten, I think that's something that you've advocated again and again and again in your public speaking these last years, that we need to embrace systemic thinking also when we design digital services. Could you maybe elaborate a bit on this? Thorsten (05:36)Sure. I think one of the key things of UX design is that we focus on the user, right? We want to build great experiences, great products for our users. And that's what we advocate for. And that's what we try to make other stakeholders understand, that it's valuable to focus on the user and to fulfill the user's needs. And we have been doing this for many years. The problem is, by focusing so much on the user, we totally forget about all the other actors that are somehow influenced by the product, by the experience that we build. So all the tools we use in UX are not taking into account the systemic context of the product, of the experience that we build.And another actor could be a human being could also be the planet, the environment, whatever, everything that is influenced by what we build. And I think this is a really big problem, because very often someone or something else pays the price for the good user experience that we build for our users. Let's say I build a nice service and a nice app for ordering my groceries from home. There are several big services out there that do this, and their advertising is pretty aggressive. You could say, it's a good user experience and it's very convenient for the user. I'm just sitting on my couch. I can order my groceries via app and then maybe 30 minutes later, someone shows up at my door and the only thing I have to do is walk up to my door and pick up the stuff. But who pays the price? Well, it's the delivery riders that are not paid well, that for a long time are even not employed, but so-called ‘self-employed’. These services have a very aggressive pricing policy, so it cannot be matched by the small grocery stores we have here in our big cities, etc. So, for the convenience and for the great user experience, someone or something else pays the price. And that is something I think we in UX for too long have not taken into account. And as I said in the beginning, it's not part of our tool set, and we need to enhance our tools and maybe create new tools to put this into our work, in the first place, to understand the systemic context, to understand the consequences, and maybe the unintended consequences of what we build, in order to be able to do it better, do a better job there and in the end do less harm. Gaël (08:36) And how would you do that? Do you have some tools that you like to use? And I know we could drop it later, but let's drop it earlier because it makes some impact, I would say, in the design world, with Apple in its last conference using, I think, at that scale for the very first time, a non-human persona there with ‘Mother Earth’. And I'm not going to comment on the message itself, but more than the way they conveyed the message, which was using a non-human persona. Is it a tool that you've been using some time, Thorsten or do you think about other kinds of tools? Thorsten (09:23) This is one of the tools. Because the great thing about non-human personas is that we use a tool we are very used to, from our daily work, and just reframe it a little bit to give other actors in our system, let's say, a voice. And it's always easier to use an existing tool and to enhance it, than introducing a totally new tool. It's easier for all of our processes. It's easier for our work with stakeholders. As you said, there were so many wrong things about this, but still it was very helpful for people like us because now people like us can go to clients or wherever and say, hey, what about non -human or non-user personas? And maybe in the past people laughed at us when we said, hey, let's make a persona for mother nature or for the environment or for trees or the river. Now we can say, hey, yeah, but that's what Apple did and nobody's laughing anymore. So, I still see a big advantage that Apple does this. But this is just, just one tool. And something that's very helpful for me is, when starting working on a product or on an experience, we are focusing so much on the user and user needs. And then maybe we try to align this with the business needs that someone else finds very important. And so, this is what we do. And I think we need to add here, what are the unintended, or maybe even known consequences of these things. So what are the negative impacts of these certain user needs? So this is a tool I use pretty often and, and actually a framework I was, and I still am, working on, to be able to see the user needs, and the business needs and then the same framework or in the same canvas, see, okay, but what are the negative consequences on a societal, on an ecological and also on a single human level? Because very often, we also build great user experiences, which are in the end harmful for ourselves. Looking at endless scrolling, looking at TikTok, YouTube, etc, trying to keep us inside of the platform as long as possible and stealing our time. So, this is a very helpful tool for me, mapping our user and business needs to the negative consequences of them. And the third tool I use very often is, and that's what I use before building the non -human personas, actually, it's also very simple mapping. Think about putting your product or your experience in the middle, and then think about all the actors, direct or indirect, that are influenced by the product that is built. So, it's a very simple exercise, but it creates a lot of transparency and visibility. And this is, from my experience, very important to do in the very beginning of the design process, because it helps open up our minds that are so focused on the users and so helps us to understand that there is so much more that we need to understand.And one last tool that is very helpful is to use the user journey. We use this a lot in UX, and also adding additional layers. So, for example, which actors are influenced at this step in the user journey? What is the environmental impact at this step of the user journey? It breaks the very high level view from the beginning, down to certain steps in the user journey, which helps us to work on certain ideas to identify where we can do things better.Gaël (13.39) So, if I wrap up the four tools you've listed, there is obviously the non-human persona. You would say that the first one you use is this kind of actor mapping, like full scale actors, both, direct and indirect, being impacted by the service.Thorsten (13.58)Yeah. Gaël (13.59) Okay. And then you have this mapping and this is that's quite hard to explain. Thorsten (14.04)I call it unintended consequence mapping. Gaël (14.07) Okay. This is what you, you go from the business need and the user needs and you go to the environmental and societal impact. Thorsten (14.17)Yeah. You can, you can do this in two steps. You can also map the unintended consequences without the user needs and business needs. So this also works. But then the next step that is very helpful is to try to find connections to these metrics that we use every day. The user needs and the business needs. So that's why I put this in there, but you can do this in two steps. But yeah, it's unintended consequence mapping. And then the second step, map these to user needs and business needs or connect.Gaël Duez (14:50) Sylvie, do these tools resonate a bit or do you tend to use other tools? I know that you've got 58 tools at your disposal, so you've got quite a lot. But does it ring a bell? Or are there different tools that you use? For the listeners, what I didn't say in the introduction, is that, of course, you know digital design quite well, but you're also an expert in the brick and mortar world, I would say. Sylvie (15:20)Firstly, there are much more than the 58 that I described in the book. I had to do a selection, so I could easily add probably 40 more. The second point is that my question is a bit different from Thorsten’s question. My main concern is about the fact that in 2015, all the parties met in Paris for the COP21. And they all decided to sign what is now called the Paris Agreement. And according to this agreement, we now have six years to divide our greenhouse gas by two. It means that for me, any project that you can have now in a country, in a company, and could be any kind of territory, in school, wherever you work, must be in this trajectory. There is no way to think about the fact that everything that we are doing must help us to divide our emissions by two. My question is much more about how do we guarantee the fact that every project helps us to attain this goal? My question is very different from does it hurt someone. My question is, are we sure that we are going to a place where everyone can live? Gaël Duez (17:31)You work as a consultant with many companies. So how do you manage these very important goals to be taken into account, and how systemic design tools help? Sylvie (17:55)The fact is that you start with carbon assessment. I cannot tell for Europe, but in France it's mandatory. That's your starting point. And you check, from this document, that is most of the time a public document, where are the sources of emissions, and you work with all the people who are involved in this emission. It can be producers, it can be providers, it can be the company itself, it can come from many, many parts and you start asking the question, how can I do better? How can I remove things? Yes, the starting point. Also, most of the companies today are facing a lack in many things. We all know that all the raw materials, their prices have been increasing incredibly during the last few years. The question is, how can we still produce what we are producing if the prices are still increasing in the next months or in the next years? And the last point is, how can we be compliant with all the new rules and the new laws that are arriving, and that are also putting a big pressure on the companies? And for the tools that you use, you have many tools that have been created by a guy called Hasan Ozbekhan, when he was working with Alexander Christakis. These tools are called Structure Dialogic Design. They are based on the fact that you need to gather all the people who are concerned and make them talk and really discuss and make them imagine the solutions. And yes, that's the kind of tools that you can easily use when you're working on such issues. Gaël Duez (20:18)And among them, could you give us one example of a tool you used, just to grasp it, because it might sound a bit blurry for people not being familiar with a systemic design. And I know that for you, it's extremely concrete. Sylvie (20:37)Okay. Like in UX, Design, systemic design starts with research. So a long time researching, exploring the issue and from this research you create what is called a ‘white book’. And a ‘white book’ is a kind of synthesis of the problem, of the situation, of the context. This tool is given to all the people that participate in a workshop. This is a very simple tool. You can create it in, I could say, almost any kind of design project. But the fact is, that it gives to all the participants pieces of information that most of the time they do not have, because they have their own expertise, but they do not know everything about the subject. It helps to align all the participants of the workshop to have the same level of information. That's a very easy and simple tool that any designer can create. Gaël Duez (21:51)Thorsten, the emphasis that Sylvie has put on people talking to each other, is it also an issue you've experienced? Or is the flow of exchanges more natural within tech companies? Thorsten (22:20)It's a very good question because, well, let's start with how do people work together on digital products. And that's a whole topic on its own. And as long as I do my job or my work, I see these problems everywhere. How do people work together and how good and how do people try to understand other stakeholders in the project, etc. So this is still a big problem space. And what I find very interesting about this question, finally we are talking much more about it. We have these fundamental environmental and societal problems that we need to solve, and we need to create or make sure us and even more so the next generations, that we have a future. So how can we better work together on these problems?In an ecosystem, like a company, where we already sometimes have problems working together efficiently, or let's say in a good way. That is a huge challenge, I think. How can we bring people together? And that means not only people from one profession, like the designers, but all the people, in my case, that are somehow involved in the digital product. And so one thing that I found is that we need to find ways and tools where we can gather people around.One example from my work, I named it before, is the user journey. The user journey is a tool UX designers use every time. It's a very good tool to bring in other people from other professions, because it's very easy to understand. If you have set up a user journey already, you can easily use it to discuss, like I said before, the negative consequences, the impacts of certain steps of the user journey, with all kinds of stakeholders. And that's, I think for us, as designers, that's an important role that we have. I think we can be the connectors. We can help bring people together, and work together on these problems, because we have the tools that help to make things accessible and understandable for all kinds of different stakeholders.Gaël Duez (24:55)We have the tools, both Sylvie and you have listed some, with different flavors and colors, which is very interesting. But do we have the mindset? Don't we still have very often today a pushback, that everything that we do in a sustainable way is more expensive, is more complex, is more efficient, is more sexy, whatever. Isn't it that we are facing an issue with a narrative around sustainable design, and beyond sustainability at large?Thorsten (25:32)We definitely do. And that is a huge problem. We need a mindset shift in, well, first, as I explained in the beginning, for us as designers, how do we see our digital design? How do we see user experience? So that's a personal mindset shift for us. But we also need a mindset shift. I mean, that's one of the big, I would say, societal questions. What is value in our society? And this is, this is a huge economical, huge topic we could talk about for hours, but I don't want to make it too big an issue here. But the thing is, as we said, the big problem is that especially from the business side, there is the strong narrative that acting sustainable is a good thing, but it's expensive and that it's not necessarily good for business. And well, the thing is, this is in fact not true. Sustainability is good for business. See Patagonia, for example. And what I also often say is, that especially in the EU, where regulations are coming, it's essential for your business to act sustainable, because otherwise you will get huge problems with regulations. And what I often do is I tell people, or ask people, hey, you might have heard about the regulations about accessibility, about web accessibility. And everyone knows about these challenges. And the same thing will happen with web sustainability, for example, or with digital sustainability. And then people will understand the need of doing these things. I think it's important for us to work actively on changing these narratives on helping people to understand, on stepping in, and countering wrong narratives, because there are many wrong narratives, such as sustainability is just expensive and nothing else. And this is also an important part, not only for designers, but for all of us. To step out of our comfort zone, to step out of our standard daily work. And I sometimes say it's not about designing the next product or the next experience. We need to use our gift, our tools, our knowledge, to design the world around us. And we design things with stories. We are all storytellers, and there are so many wrong stories out in the world nowadays. And I think we need to use our gift to tell the true stories, and to change narratives for good actually. And this is a huge challenge I think we all face (not only designers), but one where we as designers also can play an important role. Gaël (28:38)Staying with this mindset idea, something stuck in my mind - it was something that we discussed also previously before this recording - is we need to reduce everything, we put something in production, so we should get rid of something else. And this is a very counter-intuitive narrative compared to, I would say the gross culture that is still the majority approach, in almost all companies and even public services. So how do you manage to change a bit the perspective, to change a bit the mindset that, hey, when you release something, you should also consider getting rid of the equivalent, if not more? Because as you said previously, the Paris Agreement, minus 50 % carbon emissions, on top of many other environmental impacts to be reduced, so how do you help people having this slow painful change of mindset? Sylvie (29 :45)I wouldn't say that is a painful change of mindset. The point is, as I said, companies are facing many, many new constraints. The first one is, as I said, the shortage of raw materials and the fact that the price of energy is increasing incredibly. So the point is for the same amount of production they pay more, and they cannot have the price of their product increase in the same way. So most of the time the people that I meet are already aware of the fact that they need to change the way their business is run today. They know that they are facing shortages, they are facing many other different issues, like the fact that the European Union decided to have a plan called the FIT 55, which means that they decided that our emissions must be reduced by 55% in 2030 - it's in six years, it means there will probably be many, many new European rules, and companies know that they will need to be compliant with these new rules. So to me, they already know that they need to be much more sober than they used to be, and they also need to find a way to keep their business flourishing in a very difficult context. To me it's not a big deal, because people in companies are aware of all this. So the questions they are asking today are how can we have energy bills that are cheaper? How can we save energy? How can we do things better? And also they need to recruit people and it's very difficult to recruit young talent today if you're not engaged in a very social and environmental policy. So yes, it's also very good for their, what we call the, the brand of the company. Gaël (32:29)So that's interesting, because both of you, you've listed external pressures such as legal, recruitment issues, supplier prices, as triggers for action. And eventually it's not a question of how aware am I that climate change or biodiversity collapse is a threat to the survival of humankind, but it's, hey, it's already on us, so we have to do something. But to do something, we need to embrace a new way of thinking and re-incorporating those external constraints in a way to design things, products, and services. Am I right to draw this parallel between what you've said to both of you? Sylvie (33:18)Exactly the point. It's not about a moral point of view. It's much more about the business concern. Thorsten (33:27)One problem that I see very often is, and I agree with you Sylvie, that there is the awareness of let's say the big problem of the climate catastrophe, for example. What I see very often is a missing awareness on the level of, okay, but what's my part in this in detail? Change, unfortunately, is still too often driven by economic pressure. That's the way we all need to use to push business leaders and decision makers. But I would also love to have this discussion about, okay, what can be the additional values to the existing ones or to the existing big value of growth that we have? And how can we align them with these? And I have no answer to these, but I think that's a core question we should work on, or have to work on. Gaël (34:26)And there is also the question of the timing of this value. My point being what we value today, like making energy affordable for the entire humankind was a very core value of the development policy in the UN. And we realize now, and I think this is something that Sylvie, you told me before, that very often, systemic design today's problems are the consequences of yesterday's solutions, and the same goes as you carry on into the future. My point about affordable energy for everyone, which in itself, is a goal that I would fully support, is that it created a massive boom in energy extraction, and energy consumption was even an indicator of economic and societal progress. So when we value something today, how do we make sure, or how do we at least start thinking that it might not be what we value tomorrow? And it could be one of my final questions. How can some systemic design tool help us answer this question of the ‘future versus present’ assessment of what is valuable? Sylvie (35:58)I would say that probably we must not think about tools, we must think about processes. Actually, the point is not only about tools, it's about the fact that you succeed in gathering all the people around the table. It means that when you are organizing a workshop, and there are many, many tools that you can use in a workshop, the big point of systemic design is you need to have people that represent all the parts that are involved in the problem, and you need to have them discuss and exchange, not only fight you know, but exchange, because the main point is, you need to have in your workshop the people that will implement the solutions that they are thinking about. That's the main point. It means that it's not a top-down process where you have tools, and you think about anything, and you design on your own as a designer. The point is that your work is to make people work together, exchange and imagine different solutions. And from this work, they will implement and give themselves the solution that can work. And that's the main difference, because in systemic design, you are not designing anything. You are just designing intervention in a system. And your work is to have people concerned. Osbekhan said something, that it is not ethical to intervene in a social, technical system without the permission of the participants, of the parties, of the stakeholders, and without their active participation. And that's the main process that we follow. And we have many tools that we can use in workshops. It can be a causal loop, where you show people how things are all connected. It can be leverage points, inspired by the work of Donella Meadows, where you can identify the places that are crucial to change the system. It can be many different kinds of workshop tools, as designers are used to having, because most of the time we have many, many tools.But the main point is how can we gather people that are representing all the parts of the system. And our job is mainly a facilitator. We reformulate, we synthesize, we plan, we organize, but we are not designing a system.Gaël (39:12)So a designer in systemic design, doesn't design, but structures the discussion about the system. Sylvie (39:20)Yes. And the intervention into the system. Gaël (39:25)And I really love the question about bringing everyone around the table, which leads me to something super connected, which is: who's representing the future generations? And that might sound a bit crazy, but actually I know that in Wales, for instance, you've got a Commissioner for Future Generations, which means that there is someone whose job is to speak on the behalf of the people who are not yet there. So is it something that you played with a bit, because you mentioned it's very similar to what Sylvia described, but it was at the very beginning of the episode when you mentioned mapping all the actors, et cetera. Did you ever happen to map someone from the future? Thorsten (40:14)Not yet, but I love the idea. Because I think it's a different level. And the first thing I wanted to say was, there are so many people looking from a UX perspective and looking from, we are focusing on the users so much, there are so many actors that are underrepresented or not represented in all the work we do as UX designers. So there is so much work to do to give them a voice. Gaël (40:48)So, you know, for both of you, my idea might sound a bit crazy, but you could actually leverage it as an overtone window move, which is where you arrive at the workshop and you say, oh by the way, we need to gather everyone, including everyone from the future. And you've got this big reaction, what, what, what, what !? Ah, okay, okay, okay, I got it! So not everyone from the future, but at least everyone from the present. Okay, okay, that's good enough. That's good enough. And suddenly, boom, you've got a big win.Anyway, Sylvie, you know, in your book, there is this chapter, system archetype chapter, which I love so much, because it's so useful to model big interactions etc. But my question is, did you ever manage to use it to go back to, for example, some executive committee, a mayor, a city council, whoever, and say, okay, you know, the issue you're facing at the moment is a tragedy of the commons, is the winner wins all? How actionable are these systemic archetypes? Sylvie (42:04)We exchanged with Peter Senge, the writer of a book called the Fifth Discipline, who identified, I would say, patterns, because there are patterns in systems that are not working, these are patterns of dysfunctional systems. One of them is called the tragedy of the commons. And most of the time, it's something that you can meet when you have a common good for people, and everyone is using it and at the very end there is no more left for other people. It can be water, it can be whatever. What is interesting in Peter Senge’s work is that for each pattern we call the archetype of this dysfunctional system, he also identifies strategies. So, the ways that you can intervene in such a dysfunctional system. Most of the time we as the systemic designer know them, but we do not necessarily put them on the table with the clients, because sometimes they are very complex, and the clients are not able to handle it. It's not an easy tool that you can use in a workshop. So, most of the time we, as designers, have this pattern in our mind. And it helps us also to identify the good strategy. But it's not necessarily a tool that we share with all the people around the table, which is different from, I would say, a persona, or a customer journey, that most of the time are very publicly edited and publicly displayed.Thorsten (44:13)So, my first thought actually was that, taking the user journey or something else is something that is highly manipulated by many people and we want many people 12around the table, I still think from my very personal experience in doing many workshops, that as a good workshop facilitator, you are moderating, but you're also leading the workshop. And there are quite often situations where, as Sylvie also said, we don't say anything, or everything that we know, but try to give the context that is helpful, without throwing everything on to the table. And I think we do this as well. Also, if we work on the user journey, we want to bring all the stakeholders to the table, and we use this tool as a common ground to work on. I still think we, as the designer, we are not giving up all of the control of the situation. So therefore, my thought was, that it's maybe not so different because if we would give up full control of the tools that we use, and let everybody do whatever they want to do, it won't work. Maybe it's not so different. I don't know if this is a good answer, but that's my thoughts. Gaël (46:07)This is definitely a good answer. I think we can close our very deep discussions on all these tools, and actually the focus should be a bit less on the tools and a bit more on the mindsets and on the way we gather people together rather than just focusing on the tool because if you gather just two people in the room with the most beautiful tool, I think we will miss the point with the systemic design approach. So thanks a lot, both of you.But before you leave, I'd like to ask the traditional closing question, which is, would you like to share with the listeners one positive piece of news that you have heard or come across recently to create a more sustainable world? It doesn't necessarily have to be digital related, but of course, if it's digital related, it's always good. Who would like to start? Sylvie (47:09)I can start. I have two ideas in my mind. The first one is an article from the UN that I read recently, about the fact that the Sahel is re-greening, for many reasons. The first one is that they have more rain there. And the second one is because they change the way they grow plants. So yes, for me it's very good news. And the other one is about regenerative hydrology, which is a subject I explored recently. And there are many very interesting experiments. So yes, it's very encouraging. Thorsten (48:03)One thing that immediately came into my mind and which is not directly connected to ecological questions is, you might know that here in Germany, we have a huge issue with an extreme right-wing party. And there was this research recently, about a meeting, and how horrible things have been discussed there. And what gives me a lot of hope is seeing how many people were going out on the streets last weekend, the weekend before, and so 100,000 people going out there. So, the majority of the people have the right mindset. And maybe we all have different ways of doing things in detail, but we have the right mindset. And it's about how we can activate people. How can we make people understand, okay, here's a problem, we need to tackle this. And seeing that so many people are understanding that there is a huge problem, and this is a dramatic problem, we need to act now. And then people leave their comfort zone and go out to the streets. So, similar to what we have seen with the Fridays for Futures some years ago. Seeing this power of the people gives me a lot of hope, and it gives me a lot of hope to see we have to find ways to activate people for these major problems that we have, but it is possible. Gaël (46:07)Yeah. And because they're minorities, they tend to be more vocal than the majority, but yeah, the majority of people are just good folks, especially when it's about surviving or making a species survive. Okay, so thanks a lot. Both of you. It was very interesting to have you on the show. I think I'm going to reread your book, Sylvie, with a new angle and re-listen to some of your talks, Thorsten, with the same approach. I think the overall approach and the. mindset with which we should embrace this complexity of understanding things in a systemic way rather than in a narrow silo way. Yeah, that was enlightening. So thanks a lot, both of you, for being on the show, and as usual, all the references to the books, the articles you've mentioned, etc., will be put in the show notes. And now it's time to say goodbye. So thanks a lot. Thorsten (51 :03)Thank you, Gaël. Thank you, Sylvie. Really enlightening for me as well. Thorsten (51 :07)Thank you very much, Gaël. And thank you Thorsten. It was nice.Gaël (51:12)Thank you for listening to this Green IO episode. In the next episode, we will talk about norms and standards. This is what everyone is asking for in the Green IT community. We want clarity on norms, clarity on standards, clarity on what is truly required. And I realized that, hey, not sure what is actually a standard or a norm. So I will be joined by Audrey Himmer, who's a former lead at AFNOR, the French representative of the ISO network, to talk about what are the norms and the standards which could be applied in the digital sustainability area. But most importantly, How do you build a norm? How do you build standards? Who are the stakeholders? How does it all work? And why do we have different standards, different norms? What are the different approaches? So it is a very unusual episode, but one that will bring light on a much needed topic, as a lot of us are required to boost digital sustainability.And before you leave, a small message from our sponsor. No, I'm kidding. Green IO remains a free and independent podcast. So, we still need your help to keep it that way. We have zero marketing budget, so you can really support us by spreading the word. Rate the podcast five stars on Apple and Spotify. It’s very useful as well as when you share an episode on social media or directly with a relative. It's a very good idea. So thanks a lot for your support, it means a lot to us. Others being me, but also Tani Levitt, our amazing podcast producer, and Jill Tellier, our amazing podcast curator. And of course, stay tuned by subscribing to Green IO on your favorite podcast platform, or via, the Green IO newsletter. The link is in the episode notes, but you already know the drill. Each month, you will get more insights and premium content to help you, the responsible technologists scattered all over the world, build a greener digital world, one byte at a time. ❤️ Never miss an episode! Hit the subscribe button on the player above and follow us the way you like.  📧 Our Green IO monthly newsletter is also a good way to be notified, as well as getting carefully curated news on digital sustainability packed with exclusive Green IO contents. 

Experts Fiona Leibundgut and Thomas Mosser discuss the challenges and importance of measuring IT footprint in large corporations like ABB Motion. They talk about the need for education on environmental impacts, effective communication of data, and the strategies for driving sustainability initiatives in a corporate setting. The podcast also explores the rise and challenges of Green IT, emphasizing the need for regulation and pragmatic approaches.

"Can Digital Marketing be low-carbon?" features guests Audrey Danthony and Diarmuid Gill, experts in AdTech with a passion for Sustainability. They delve into the environmental impact of digital marketing, highlighting the huge carbon footprint of digital campaigns. They discuss measurement strategies, evaluation of environmental impacts, and the importance of investing in low-carbon practices. Code refactoring, measuring carbon emissions, and tips to reduce carbon footprint in digital marketing are also explored. The podcast ends on an optimistic note, emphasizing the role of technological innovation and student involvement in sustainability.

Maxime Blondeau, an expert in anthropology, geography, and cosmology, discusses the impact of digital technologies on humanity. Topics include the mind revolutions humanity has gone through, the perception of an expanding digital world, the scarcity of attention, and breaking news shared by Maxime at the end of the episode.

Anastasis Stamatis, Lou Welgryn, and Theo Alves Da Costa discuss the environmental impact of AI, using AI to protect the ocean, automating sustainability data extraction, integrating AI into society, and news on corporate sustainability reporting.

In this episode, Asim Hussain, Director of the Green Software Foundation, discusses trust and consensus in the tech industry. They talk about building a trusted ecosystem, collaborative decision-making, and the tools for green software. They also touch on Asim's career journey, his advocacy for psychedelic medicine, and the interconnectedness of life.

This episode is not in Spanish or Portuguese but it might have been 🙂 With Catalina Zapata - founder of La Web Verde community in Colombia - and Ismael Velasco - founder of the Adora foundation and based in Mexico - Gaël Duez explores the momentum of Digital Sustainability in Latin America as well as the pitfalls it faces. From COP21 memories to the structure of the IT industry in LATAM, both guests share unconventional wisdom as well as tips for any IT workers based in LATAM to green the Web. Learn more about our guest and connect: Catalina's LinkedIn and WordPress.tv resultsIsmael’s LinkedInGaël's LinkedIn Gaël's website Green IO website 📧 You can also send us an email at greenio@duez.com to share your feedback and suggest future guests or topics.   Catalina's and Ismael’s sources and other references mentioned in this episode:ClimateAction.TechWordPress Sustainability Community Adora foundation  Elena Morettini’s talk Gerry Mc Govern’s workTom greenwood’s Curiously Green newsletterUnitar’s article on Latin America’s e-waste management  Article in Portuguese: Green Information Technology practices in University educational institutions: A systematic reviewCSIS article on The Development of the ICT Landscape in Mexico: Cybersecurity and Opportunities for Investment Environmental Variables - The Week in Green Software: episode with Chris Adams and Ismael Velasco Green Web FoundationTranscript (in English - for Spanish check below)(00:09) Gaël: Hello everyone, welcome to Green IO, the podcast for responsible technologists building a greener digital world, one byte at a time. On Green IO, we explore how to reduce the environmental impact of our digital world. Our guests from across the globe share insights, tools, and alternative approaches enabling people within the tech sector, and, beyond to boost digital sustainability.More than 300 million digital users, home of dozens of unicorns, with vibrant tech scenes scattered across the region. 2.2 million working in the technology, internet and communication sector, according to LinkedIn. No, I'm not talking about Europe, but Latin America. Latin America, which is a significant player in our digital world and as such a significant contributor to its environmental impacts. Just following a non-rigorous approach based on the number of its users, but hey, remember that the majority of the environmental impacts come from both manufacturing and user devices, and the electricity consumption of these devices. So, resuming my on-the-go analysis, with 5.5% of world users, Latin America’s carbon footprint for its digital activities would be around 77 million tons of CO2 (2019), which is more than any country in Central America, apart from Mexico, obviously, and for instance it is more than Uruguay has emitted. So, I guess now that you understood that today's episode is about Latin America, and more specifically, how someone working in the digital sector and based in Latin America can contribute to decarbonizing the Internet.To help us finding the answers, I'm pleased to welcome two guests today. Catalina Zapata, who's based in Medellín, Colombia. Catalina is a seasoned web designer who started a project called La Web Verde, (my pronunciation is terrible because it's in Spanish) in order to democratize sustainability on the web, teach designers and developers how to create more sustainable digital projects and more specifically spread green awareness about our digital footprint within the WordPress community. (02:34.39) Gaël: I spotted Catalina in this vibrant WordPress sustainability group last year, and when I reached out to her, she told me that she was already a regular listener of the podcast. And when I asked her why she was so much into sustainability, she had a very straightforward answer: because we breathe the same air and we are all on the same planet. And that was pretty straightforward. Well, later, she actually told me that three years ago she read an article about internet being the fourth most polluting country in the world, and that was kind of a ‘ha-ha’ moment. But actually, I think I even love better her first answer.Ismael Velasco is based in Mexico and I met him via the amazing CAT community. Ismael is a veteran in the software industry at large, and green software in particular. His API ‘graceful degradation’ concept immediately appealed to me, but I discovered someone whose knowledge and commitment goes far beyond green IT, with his involvement in the Adora Foundation, which forces social innovation across the globe and his recent decision to focus more on the sustainability side of technology. So, welcome Catalina, welcome Ismael. Thanks a lot for joining Green IO today.(04:02) Ismael: It's great to be here. Great to be with you.(04:05) Catalina: Thank you, Gael, for connecting, for inviting, and creating this space, that is not only innovative, but also is very, very, very necessary for those who design the web and consume the internet.(04:18) Gaël: Wow, thanks a lot, both of you. I would love to start, actually, with a very straightforward question. Is the title of this episode all wrong? I mean, is Latin America a pertinent scope to apprehend Tech and sustainability? Ismael, do you have an opinion on it?(04:40) Ismael: I think, personally that, yes, it is a meaningful category. I think the distribution of technology and the role and contribution of technology does diverge regionally. So; each country, each area will have different profiles. But I think the main realities facing Latin America in relation to technology do have a lot of parallels. I think culturally, there is probably even more commonality across Latin America than there is across Europe, in many areas. The tensions that we experience are often also mirrored across countries. So, I think it's definitely a meaningful category, which is not to say a homogenous one. I think you will find enormous diversity country to country. But I don't think that negates the fact that addressing the reality of technology at a Latin American level makes sense on very many levels. So yes.(05:45) Gaël: Catalina, do you have an opinion on it?(05:48) Catalina: I think that in Europe, digital sustainability has become a priority for both government and business. But there are strict regulations on the energy efficiency or data centers, the recycling of electronic devices, and the reduction of carbon emission in the technology sector. The United States has not reached European standards, but there is a growing awareness of carbon footprint reduction. But in Latin America, we have a great challenge in accessing resources and knowledge, and access to information in Spanish is limited. It is necessary to translate and adapt resources into Spanish and other native languages of the continent, to make the information more accessible and usable. However, I believe we have great potential, but more awareness and education is needed from all of us who create the web and consume the internet.(06:57) Gaël: Well, that's very interesting feedback, Catalina, and there are a lot of different things to unpack here. So we'll go back to them point by point, but I'd like to bounce back on what you've just said about the level of awareness across the globe. What is the level of awareness according to you about digital sustainability in Latin America?(07:19) Catalina: For me, it's very, very, very low. Digital sustainability is a strange concept in Colombia and Latin America. Everyone talks about climate change, net zero, circular economy, sustainable development goals, sustainable fashion, human rights, green mobility, recycling, inclusion, female empowerment, artificial intelligence, eco-tourism. But no one talks about green software, green web, or the impact of the internet on each of our digital actions on carbon emissions. And I ask myself why. To give you an example of how ignorant we are. I am an ambassador for the Climate Reality Project. It's a non-profit organization, one of the largest communities of world climate leaders of the world created to promote solutions to climate change. This organization has a virtual platform where everyone can connect with other leaders. There are materials, videos, forums, events, resources, surveys, discussions, seminars, virtual meetings, job opportunities. And for the last three years, I have not found a single conversation about digital sustainability or sustainable web design or digital sovereignty. The server where the website and digital community is hosted is not a green server. That makes a lot of inconsistency between what is said and what is done in companies or organizations or change makers in Latin America.(09:09) Gaël: That's not the first time I hear someone saying that digital sustainability per se, not sustainability at large, because a lot of stuff is obviously going on in Latin America, but digital sustainability is not a hot topic. Ismael, is it something that you agree with, especially with regards to the situation in Mexico?(09:29) Ismael: Yes, I think I recognize that situation, and I think it's probably the case for almost all of Latin America, with the exception of the academic sector in Brazil. But in Brazil, you do have quite a lot of academia that has been publishing for years. They've been, I think, some of the earliest thinkers around brain computing and digital sustainability. But they are the exception. And I don't think even in Brazil it has expanded outside of academia into industry in any meaningful way. In Mexico, a bit like we heard for Colombia, I've organized a number of events here on ‘greening your software’. I've given a few talks, etc. I'm in touch with a lot of developer communities here, in the thousands. And I think every single time, without exception, when I brought up the theme, it has been the first time anyone remembers ever having come across a talk or an event dedicated to the subject. But, like Catalina mentioned, there aren’t really any accessible resources in Spanish. There aren't bodies that are pushing for it. There isn't a regulatory or a policy agenda for it. And the people who have thought about it have tended to think about it in isolation. We've been trying to start building communities through a set of events around ‘Green Your Software’. We launched one in Mexico. We're hoping, with Catalina, to do something like that in Colombia too, and also outside of Latin America too. But generally speaking, I would say that, like Catalina, my experience is that the topic is highly resonant. The moment that people hear about it, developers in particular, they go, ‘ah, that makes sense’. I want to do something about it. But it's almost always the very first time they've thought about it. The level of awareness is extremely, extremely low, with the possible exception of Bitcoin, which has got such a globally bad reputation environmentally, that it has permeated the popular consciousness. And people might go, ‘oh, yeah, Bitcoin might be bad for the environment’. But outside of that, I don't think it's a discussion that is happening in general.(12:04) Gaël: So how come we are facing so many issues? Catalina, you mentioned that a lack of documentation in Spanish was one of the issues, but is there any other hurdle that a designer (because you're more on the designer side) faces, to start greening the web?(12:28) Catalina: I agree with what Ismael said, that the principal problem is the awareness. Yes, many companies and professionals in Latin America are still aware of the environmental impacts of their online activities. The lack of education and awareness about digital sustainability is a key challenge for those of us who create and consume internet content. Another very important point is the resistance to change. Some companies and professionals may resist to change, especially if they believe that adopting sustainable practices could increase their costs or require additional efforts. Another point is green hosting challenges. At times, selecting eco-friendly hosting provided by renewable energy sources can be a challenge, as there may be a lack of available options in certain areas and costs can probably be high.(13:36) Gaël: Ismael, is this something that you've noticed as well or do you have another angle as a developer?(13:44) Ismael: Both. I definitely agree with absolutely everything that Catalina has said, but I also think that there is a structural issue that is driving a lot of this, and it's the nature of the ICT market in Latin America. I think there are four layers to it. You have the base layer of a very small website and simple apps for a domestic market, that are not necessarily high skill and they're also not high in price. So that means that developers generally do not have much say in terms of what or how they build. They are freelancing. There's a huge gig economy around ICT. So that first layer of the gig economy means that even if you cared about green software, and even if you were a bit informed about green software, the opportunities to present it, to incorporate it, to discuss it, are smaller. Then you have the next layer, which is where you have developers who are building more sophisticated software applications, and are who are primarily competing on price - they tend to be software agencies, and this is another scenario where they are given not a lot of resources, not a lot of time to come up with an app and who do not necessarily have a high level of training or focus on quality. The importance is to churn out products and the jobs are precarious. So, the long-term thinking around green quality, around impact, around all kinds of things that companies might do if they're building a single product over three or four or five years is much harder to do if you've got a three-month contract or a five-month contract.(16:12.) Gaël: There is, in different parts of Latin America, a much more highly skilled digital labor force and people are offshoring to Latin America and often for longer-term projects. So often, in major companies, people will have products that they're building and they will have entire teams based in Mexico or in Colombia or in other parts of Latin America. And there you will have the level of expertise required to build perhaps green apps, but the commissioning process, the people making the actual decisions on architecture, on design, on hiring, are all in the United States, in Canada, in Europe, and they don't particularly care about the environment.So, they are achieving high quality for lower price. And then the final layer is the unicorns. You have some Latin American tech companies that have begun to emerge in Mexico. I can't remember the number, there might be five or ten unicorns. So, these are people getting billions from venture capitalists etc., and they are no more green than any of the big companies in the global North. So, whereas I think there is a big gap between awareness in Latin America and awareness in North America and Europe, I don't think the gap in practice is equally as large, because in Europe and in North America, people really are much more aware of the environmental implications of software, but I don't think they are particularly more committed or active in building greener software. So, the same people who are building the most polluting software on a global scale across Europe and North America are the people who are hiring the Developers in Latin America to build that software. So, there's a whole bunch of structural factors that, even if you have the desire to build green, would create significant barriers. These are significant barriers, because you have less power.as an external freelancing or contracting Dev than if you are a staff engineer in Google, for example, to say, actually, ‘I want to do it green’. So even if you have the awareness and the resources, I think there are economics and responsibilities that lie outside of Latin America for some of the barriers that we have in implementing green applications.(19:30) Gaël: Ismael that's super insightful to go all the way up to the entire structure of the tech economy in Latin America. So overall, this is not really good news that you have shared because low level of general awareness, lack of documentation in Spanish, lack of green, (or not a single one, actually) structural issues, several about who gives order a short-term profit incentivization. I guess it was you, Ismael, who also mentioned that there is a terrible lack of political pressure concerning these topics. So, it’s pretty hard to try to code green or to design green in Latin America.Yet still, here you are, like thousands of others. So, I'd like to switch the narrative a bit here, and to see the glass as half full or even one third or one quarter full, and say, okay, so I'm just a tech worker in Latin America, what can I leverage to help me build a greener internet? And how vibrant is the green IT ecosystem in Latin America? Because maybe it's not as vibrant as other parts of the world, but I know for sure that there are people working on these topics. What are the available resources? We say that there are not many, but I guess we still have some resources. What network should I connect with? So, Catalina, would you like to give some advice to someone starting in the design or the sustainable design business? What would you say to this person? (21:07) Catalina: There are some resources available such as blogs, discussion groups and online communities. The offer in Spanish, like those in Portuguese, is not the same as that compared to languages such as English or German. But I think that digital sustainability today in Latin America is an issue only for large worldwide private companies, such as Google, Apple, Facebook, Amazon, Microsoft or other large companies in the country / region, for example, Globant, Nubank, Rappi, Natura, Mercado Libre. But it is noticed as subject now by small entrepreneurs or micro entrepreneurs or designers or developers. We have to start talking about digital sobriety and the impact of digital actions by ordinary citizens can contribute. Not only how the companies we consume can neutralize carbon emission, but also how we, the user, can support and contribute. (22.15) Gaël: Ismael, from a developer's perspective, what would be the resources and the approaches that you would advocate? (23.23) Ismael: I'd like to mention three things and not just as a developer, but also for entrepreneurs. And I think we need to make and understand that green software is not a barrier or a hurdle to get over, but it's also a commercial opportunity. So, for example, across Latin America, there is, in Mexico, I think there's something like 71 million regular internet users, but there's a huge percentage of people who have very low intermittent access to the internet. In other parts of Latin America, the number of people with poor connectivity is even greater. If you're able to design an app that is green, you are likely to design an app that works well under low connectivity; that uses less data, so it is cheaper to run. And you are likely to design an app that is flexible, depending on availability, which means that you've got a gigantic addressable market that does not exist in the global north. So, the first thing I would say is that entrepreneurs, companies, inventors in Latin America should think about that large addressable market that could be reached if you build software with green patterns. And the nice thing about green software is that you end up building an app that works both for the person in that village that has full connectivity, and for the businessman in the city, and for the woman president in that country. And they can all use the same app because you developed it ‘green’.The second thing that I would mention is that regulation is coming. It's already started. Europe as ever is ahead. France is ahead of Europe. The US is beginning to catch up. And this means that a lot of the nearshoring jobs that will come to us in Latin America, a lot of the companies in the US and in the EU who will hire Latin American debts, will in the next three to five years, have to demonstrate that they are reducing emissions in the apps they build. So that means that if you're a developer or a student right now, and you master the art of green software, you're going to be at the cutting edge of labor demand when there is a huge skills gap. And when people are coming to Mexico or to Colombia and saying, ‘we want to hire devs but in order to comply with regulation, it needs to be built green’, it you've started learning now, you're going to be in a uniquely competitive space. And the last thing that I want to mention is community. Community really matters. Go check the software community that Catalina mentioned. Climateaction.tech has a bit of a Latin American bit growing.But I also wanted to say to any listener that the Adora Foundation is going to launch a project to bring green computing knowledge onto Wikipedia in Spanish. And there are grants for this. So, if anybody wants to partner with us in creating what they call Wikathons, I think, but basically, partnering with us in creating new and translating existing green compute content into Wikipedia, please reach out to me on LinkedIn, and we will add you into the partnership. And together we can create a massive explosion of access to knowledge in the most democratic platform available in Spanish and eventually in Portuguese and other languages too, but we'll be starting in Spanish. (26.33) Gaël: And just to bounce back on what you've said, Ismael, actually there is another tool which is now available in Spanish - the Digital Collage:-(26.47) Ismael: El mural digital.(26.33) Gaël: Yes. Ismail, you mentioned communities, and I know that Catalina, in previous discussions, you mentioned the importance of the open-source community as one of the solutions, because we're still trying to answer this question: ‘Where can I start when I am a developer or a designer or an entrepreneur in the tech sector in Latin America?’. Do you want to elaborate on the importance of the open-source community?(27.25) Catalina: Yeah, the open community in Latin America is very big and robust and very active. The focus is the collaboration and open access and quality software. Maybe the privacy and data security is a central topic. But it's important that I mention that in Medellín, my city, because Medellín won the recognition of the most innovative city in the world in 2018, and the most intelligent city in the country in 2022. And is known as, or is calling to be known as, the software valley. Here, there is enough scholarship to bring people closer to technology. And we are rich human talent in all digital issues, and we are in the place that has the most technology communities within the country, or maybe the region. But the question is we never hear about sustainable web design, green software or digital sobriety, that there is only focus on programming language, databases, artificial intelligence, security, marketing frameworks, libraries, apps, etc. And my question is why? Digital technologies are responsible for the 4% of all greenhouse gas emissions of the planet, and that the cloud has a larger carbon footprint than the aviation industry. That 10 hours of high-quality video contain more data than all the Wikipedia articles in text format. That the web and the data centers that power our digital lives consume more energy and water that we can imagine. And it's controversial, because it's a city that has many technology communities, but it never speaks about this topic, this ‘sustainable digital’ and it's a question for me every time, every day. (29:56) Ismael: I think that's a really great point, Catalina, a really important one. I have also found that I know many Mexican developers who are in the very top rank of open-source contributors to their projects, people who have contributed to the Linux kernel or people who are at the heart of WordPress, or at the heart of all kinds of big open-source projects with really serious international contributions and recognition. And I think that would be a fantastic population to target. And if they are listening to this podcast (and I hope they are), I will certainly be promoting it.I think if you've got a voice in your area of open source, if you are a serious contributor as a Latin American to an open-source project, consider that you may be the person who can green that technology. You may be in a really good place to actually impact on a technology that impacts millions of people because you know what you're doing and you've got reputation and credentials. So, to all the Latin American open-source contributors out there, and especially those of you who are really serious about it, consider asking yourself the technical question: If I wanted to green this open-source project, what would I do? And then rally people around it. You will find all of us around the world supporting your efforts.(31.44) Gaël: Thank you Ismail. That's very inspiring and actually quite true as well, because the momentum we've got today in digital sustainability in Europe, just to speak about what I've experiencing, has been built a lot on the open-source community, and with people just, as you said, starting to pay attention, usually coming from privacy movements, the question of truly open source, and the intellectual property issues around digital rights, etc. And suddenly they are switching to, ‘oh, but actually there is a missing part in my puzzle, which is sustainability’.And connecting to the question of having different angles, there is one last question I wanted to ask to both of you. Going a bit beyond this green angle that we had, how much can we, or shouldn't we, disconnect the environment from other issues like ethics or social justice in Latin America? Because we were discussing before the interview that some, especially some countries in Latin America, are rife with inequalities and that might be hard, actually, to dissociate both, or should we dissociate both because otherwise no topics get any traction if we try to connect too many things. What are your opinions on it?(33.17) Catalina: Okay, I believe that we cannot disconnect and separate these issues, because everything in the planet is systemic. The environment, ethics and social justice are interconnected in systems that depend on each other and together they form a complete vision of a better and brighter world for all. Social justice means that everyone must have equal access to resources and opportunities, and that basic human rights must be protected. And the ethics is about doing the right thing and treating our natural environment and other forms of life with respect. We must act responsibly to preserve the herd, not just for ourselves, but for others as well. Our ethics is how we treat the herd and others life forms, it has a direct impact on social justice for generations. But I think that it's impossible to disconnect and separate these issues.(34:33) Ismael: Thank you, Catalina, for your point about ethics. Actually, you're not going to green software if you do not have values that drive you towards it, right? It is a values-based choice. So, you cannot associate values from that decision. I would question, however, the framing, Gael, that you introduced, because you pointed out the inequalities within Latin America. And I think the inequalities within Latin America are a huge, huge dimension of this. If you do not have access to water, let alone to internet, let alone to full literacy, then clearly your ability to contribute to – though I guess you are contributing to a greener digital footprint by not using it - but you will be limited in those abilities and those skills if your access to information is limited. Then even if you are educated and keen, it's going to be hard for you to acquire it.However, the real constraint on greening the digital world in Latin America, from mining through to the supply chain, through software building, is not the inequalities within Latin America, it's the inequalities between Latin America and the rest of the world. It is the dynamics of the way Europe, and in particular the United States and Canada and China and the richer countries, interact and consume Latin American resources and products, that are the biggest determinant of the kind of applications that get built. So, the challenge of justice here is that it is definitely crucial to have justice within Latin America. But one of the reasons why you don't have regulation that works, is because of pressure from companies that are not based in Latin America. So, I would say the social justice issues are the sine qua non, the basis of achieving digital sustainability in Latin America. But that involves the inequalities between the people who commission most of the digital products in Latin America, which is the global north, and the people who produce them in the global south. That inequality, I think, is the key barrier. If you can make all of the companies that commission software or mining or supplies or sell e-waste to Latin America from abroad, demand green standards, you will see that digital sustainability accelerates dramatically. And without that, all the goodwill, all the conviction, all the dedication of people like ourselves in Latin America will not achieve a systemic impact. So, yes to the inequalities, but I would say it's the global ones that count more than the regional ones at this stage.(38.10) Catalina: Yeah, I totally agree Ismael’s whole answer. (38:17) Gaël: Yes, thanks Ismael, fair point. It's also definitely an issue about inequalities across the world, and not just within a country or a continent. Now being mindful of time, do you want to add just one more recommendation to learn more on digital sustainability if you're based in Latin America? (38.44) Catalina: I would recommend the talks by Elena Morettini, who is the Global Head of Sustainable Business at Globant, and shares a lot of values, content about transition and energy efficiency and green IT for business/(39.00) Gaël: And what would be your pick, Ismael?(39.04) Ismael: Well, I am conflicted, because I'm going to recommend something that I want to discourage at the same time. So, I'm going to say why I don't want you to use it. I don't want you to use ChatGTP and Bard and LLMs because they are environmentally 10 times worse than most other alternatives. However, what I will say is, if the main barrier right now is information, if you are in Latin America, and if you're listening to this, you probably have enough fluency so that's not your barrier. But you will have so many colleagues for whom this might be a barrier. And what I would advise is, search and google all the resources, all the names that Catalina mentioned, and they are connected. So, the moment you find one, if you find Jerry McGovern, if you find Wholegrain Digital, if you find the people in this very podcast, if you find who Gaël has interviewed, look them up, basically go find all the resources you can in English and translate them. If you can use Google Translate first, it'll be cheaper environmentally. But if not, to be honest, that is a trade-off that I am happy to do. If using ChatGPT or Bard will equip you to green the next 300 apps that you build the rest of your life, go and use it.(40:52) Gaël: Excellent. I didn't expect such an answer. But that's a very nice one. That's a beautifully played card. I'm not going to choose, actually, I'm going to list all these great resources, but the tool is translation. And I fully agree with you, Ismail. Sometimes you use a terrible tool in the right way and that’s the worth the type of investment. But that was great. And so, because we are on a positive mood, Ismail, if you had to share one piece of good news which made you optimistic recently about our path toward a more sustainable world, what would it be?(41.37) Ismael: I need to say that good news is there if you look for it. Around COP27, there were these series of reports that came out, that were dire. They were terrible, they really were. The situation is absolutely horrific. We're moving too slow. But buried in all of those reports, were extraordinary achievements that no one really reported. So, I was in Paris for COP 21. And I remember that at the start of COP 21, the level of ambition was on the floor. None of us believed this was going to lead anywhere, not the governments, not the activists, not the NGOs, not the academics, nobody. And then civil society moved. The largest demonstrations in the history of the planet and the use of technology, groups like Avaaz creating mobilizations. And in real time, I saw governments change their positions. And then when people weren't going to embrace certain targets, city mayors embraced those targets. Terrible multinationals embraced targets, and the mood changed. Now, at that point, the status quo, the business-as-usual scenario, was leading us into the worst apocalypse. The latest reports that came out are saying that we are on track for catastrophe, but we have moved away from apocalypse. No one has tracked the fact that at the most dysfunctional time in global decision-making, humanity has managed to shift track. For the first time in the whole of our records, by 2030, the IEA expects emissions to no longer grow, but to flatline. None of this is enough to spare us from catastrophe. But it shows, that as a global community, we have the power to truly change scenarios. So, we need to understand that power, not become complacent, and go, ‘it's all okay’, but also not to forget that hope exists empirically.(44:15) Gaël: Thanks a lot Ismael. I may just comment on COP21 that, yes, civil society played a big role, but hey, this is the episode on Latin America, so I guess we also have to give a big kudos to one of my longtime heroes now, which is Cristiana Figueres, obviously, because if she hadn't have been there, leading the UN climate delegation, with her amazing ambassador skills, and everything else that she built around her, and the team she brought, etc., I don't believe anything would have been achieved (without downplaying the massive role civil society played too). I'm not trying to give her a percentage here, but just acknowledging that, yes, I think without her, we would be in real dire straits at the moment.(45.08) Gaël: What about you, Catalina? Is there one piece of good news that you'd like to share? (45.14) Catalina: Concerning this point, I need to talk about WordPress. This is my community, right, and some excellent recent news is that the global WordPress community has formed a sustainability group. With 264 members showing a growing interest in the topic though only from Latin America, like Ismael and me, but this is an important step for other people, other humans, whether Spain or other countries in Europe. But it's also encouraging to see that several developers are reducing the size of their plugins to make them more efficient and environmentally friendly. Awareness about the importance of greening servers is increasing, where every small contribution, like removing a single kilobyte, or millions of websites, can significantly reduce carbon emission. Also, it's inspiring to see more people engage in creating a more sustainable web. That is a good piece of news, and good for the global community for WordPress, because it's a good step. (46:44) Gaël: Thanks a lot, both of you, for sharing such positive news at the end, and for the amazing work that you're doing in Latin America, and way beyond just a green internet, to make people aware of the environmental footprint of our digital world. Thanks too for being there, and connecting with me on being based on a very different time zone, and for accommodating all those differences. So, thanks a lot. It was great having both of you. I hope this episode will be very useful for people based in this beautiful region of the world. And as usual, I will put all the references in the show notes. Thanks a lot for being there, both of you.(47.35) Ismael: Thank you. Great opportunity and great to chat with both of you, Catalina and Gaël. Really great opportunity. Thank you.(47.44) Catalina: Thank you, Gaël. Thank you, Ismael. Really, really, I'm very, very happy to share.(47.51) Gaël: Thank you for listening to this Green IO episode. In episode 27, we will talk about all the tools provided by the Green Software Foundation to decarbonize software. There are quite a few, and Nassim Hussain, the Executive Director of Green Software himself, will give us a guided tour. And he might also share some exclusive announcements before the big Decarb Software 2023 conference. So stay tuned.Before you leave, a small message from our sponsor. No, I'm still kidding. Green IO is a free and independent podcast. And so we need your help to keep it that way. You can help us by supporting us on Tipeee. The link is in the episode notes. But if you cannot donate, that's fine. You can support us by spreading the word. And I know, I've asked you several times already, and I'm bothering you with this, but please do rate the podcast five stars on Apple or Spotify. And if you've already done it, ask a friend to do it too. This is the only way that we will get new listeners via the search in these platforms. So thanks a lot for rating the podcast. That's super cool of you. And hopefully we will get more listeners and more responsible technologists joining the show. You know, each vote is truly worth a thousand likes on YouTube, believe me, when you compare very successful YouTubers and very successful podcasters.Now, if you don't have Spotify or Apple Podcasts, that's perfectly fine, share an episode on social media or directly with a relative, and it will be way more effective than many ads. So thanks a lot for that. Seriously, thanks for your support. It means a lot to us. Us being me, but also Tani Levitt, our amazing podcast producer, and Jill Tellier, our amazing podcast curator. We are delighted to help you, the responsible technologists, scattered all over the world, build a greener digital world….one byte at a time.Transcript (in Spanish - AI generated)(00:09) Gaël: Hola a todos, bienvenidos a Green IO, el podcast para tecnólogos responsables que construyen un mundo digital más verde, byte a byte. En Green IO, exploramos cómo reducir el impacto ambiental de nuestro mundo digital. Nuestros invitados de todo el mundo comparten ideas, herramientas y enfoques alternativos que permiten a las personas dentro del sector tecnológico, y más allá, impulsar la sostenibilidad digital. Más de 300 millones de usuarios digitales, hogar de docenas de unicornios, con escenas tecnológicas vibrantes repartidas por la región. 2.2 millones trabajando en el sector tecnológico, de internet y comunicación, según LinkedIn. No, no estoy hablando de Europa, sino de América Latina. América Latina, un jugador significativo en nuestro mundo digital y, como tal, un contribuyente significativo a sus impactos ambientales. Solo siguiendo un enfoque no riguroso basado en el número de sus usuarios, pero recuerden que la mayoría de los impactos ambientales provienen de la fabricación y el uso de dispositivos y el consumo de electricidad de estos dispositivos. Resumiendo mi análisis rápido, con el 5.5% de los usuarios mundiales, la huella de carbono de América Latina por sus actividades digitales sería alrededor de 77 millones de toneladas de CO2 (2019), lo que es más que cualquier país en América Central, excepto México, obviamente, y, por ejemplo, es más de lo que ha emitido Uruguay. Así que supongo que ahora han entendido que el episodio de hoy trata sobre América Latina, y más específicamente, cómo alguien que trabaja en el sector digital y está basado en América Latina puede contribuir a descarbonizar Internet. Para ayudarnos a encontrar las respuestas, me complace dar la bienvenida a dos invitados hoy. Catalina Zapata, que está basada en Medellín, Colombia. Catalina es una experimentada diseñadora web que inició un proyecto llamado La Web Verde, (mi pronunciación es terrible porque es en español) con el objetivo de democratizar la sostenibilidad en la web, enseñar a diseñadores y desarrolladores cómo crear proyectos digitales más sostenibles y, más específicamente, difundir la conciencia verde sobre nuestra huella digital dentro de la comunidad de WordPress.(02:34.39) Gaël: Descubrí a Catalina en este vibrante grupo de sostenibilidad de WordPress el año pasado, y cuando me puse en contacto con ella, me dijo que ya era una oyente regular del podcast. Y cuando le pregunté por qué estaba tan interesada en la sostenibilidad, tuvo una respuesta muy directa: porque respiramos el mismo aire y todos estamos en el mismo planeta. Y eso fue bastante directo. Bueno, luego, de hecho, me dijo que hace tres años leyó un artículo sobre Internet siendo el cuarto país más contaminante del mundo, y eso fue como un momento 'ja-ja'. Pero en realidad, creo que incluso me gusta más su primera respuesta. Ismael Velasco está basado en México y lo conocí a través de la increíble comunidad CAT. Ismael es un veterano de la industria del software en general, y del software verde en particular. Su concepto de 'degradación grácil' de API me atrajo de inmediato, pero descubrí a alguien cuyo conocimiento y compromiso van mucho más allá de la tecnología verde, con su participación en la Fundación Adora, que impulsa la innovación social en todo el mundo, y su reciente decisión de centrarse más en el lado sostenible de la tecnología. Así que, bienvenida Catalina, bienvenido Ismael. Muchas gracias por unirse a Green IO hoy. (04:02) Ismael: Es genial estar aquí. Genial estar contigo. (04:05) Catalina: Gracias, Gael, por conectar, por invitar y crear este espacio, que no solo es innovador, sino que también es muy, muy, muy necesario para aquellos que diseñan la web y consumen Internet. (04:18) Gaël: Wow, muchas gracias a ambos. Me encantaría comenzar, de hecho, con una pregunta muy directa. ¿El título de este episodio está completamente equivocado? Quiero decir, ¿América Latina es un ámbito pertinente para abordar la tecnología y la sostenibilidad? Ismael, ¿tienes una opinión al respecto? (04:40) Ismael: Creo, personalmente, que sí, es una categoría significativa. Creo que la distribución de la tecnología y el papel y contribución de la tecnología divergen regionalmente. Cada país, cada área tendrá perfiles diferentes. Pero creo que las realidades principales que enfrenta América Latina en relación con la tecnología tienen muchos paralelos. Creo que culturalmente, hay probablemente aún más similitud en toda América Latina que en Europa, en muchas áreas. Las tensiones que experimentamos a menudo también se reflejan en otros países. Entonces, creo que definitivamente es una categoría significativa, lo que no significa que sea homogénea. Creo que encontrarás una enorme diversidad de país a país. Pero no creo que eso niegue el hecho de que abordar la realidad de la tecnología a nivel latinoamericano tenga sentido en muchos niveles. Así que sí. (05:45) Gaël: Catalina, ¿tienes una opinión al respecto? (05:48) Catalina: Creo que en Europa, la sostenibilidad digital se ha convertido en una prioridad tanto para el gobierno como para los negocios. Pero hay regulaciones estrictas sobre la eficiencia energética de los centros de datos, el reciclaje de dispositivos electrónicos y la reducción de las emisiones de carbono en el sector tecnológico. Estados Unidos no ha alcanzado los estándares europeos, pero hay una creciente conciencia de la reducción de la huella de carbono. Pero en América Latina, tenemos un gran desafío para acceder a recursos y conocimientos, y el acceso a la información en español es limitado. Es necesario traducir y adaptar recursos al español y a otros idiomas nativos del continente, para que la información sea más accesible y utilizable. Sin embargo, creo que tenemos un gran potencial, pero se necesita más conciencia y educación de todos nosotros que creamos la web y consumimos Internet. (06:57) Gaël: Bueno, ese es un comentario muy interesante, Catalina, y hay muchas cosas diferentes que desempacar aquí. Así que volveremos a ellos punto por punto, pero me gustaría volver a lo que acabas de decir sobre el nivel de conciencia en todo el mundo. ¿Cuál es el nivel de conciencia según tú sobre la sostenibilidad digital en América Latina? (07:19) Catalina: Para mí, es muy, muy, muy bajo. La sostenibilidad digital es un concepto extraño en Colombia y América Latina. Todos hablan sobre cambio climático, cero neto, economía circular, objetivos de desarrollo sostenible, moda sostenible, derechos humanos, movilidad verde, reciclaje, inclusión, empoderamiento femenino, inteligencia artificial, ecoturismo. Pero nadie habla sobre software verde, web verde o el impacto de Internet en cada una de nuestras acciones digitales en las emisiones de carbono. Y me pregunto por qué. Para darte un ejemplo de lo ignorantes que somos. Soy embajadora del Proyecto Realidad Climática. Es una organización sin fines de lucro, una de las comunidades más grandes de líderes climáticos del mundo creada para promover soluciones al cambio climático. Esta organización tiene una plataforma virtual donde todos pueden conectarse con otros líderes. Hay materiales, videos, foros, eventos, recursos, encuestas, discusiones, seminarios, reuniones virtuales, oportunidades laborales. Y durante los últimos tres años, no he encontrado una sola conversación sobre sostenibilidad digital, diseño web sostenible o soberanía digital. El servidor donde se aloja el sitio web y la comunidad digital no es un servidor verde. Eso crea mucha inconsistencia entre lo que se dice y lo que se hace en empresas u organizaciones o agentes de cambio en América Latina. (09:09) Gaël: No es la primera vez que escucho a alguien decir que la sostenibilidad digital per se, no la sostenibilidad en general, porque obviamente hay muchas cosas sucediendo en América Latina, pero la sostenibilidad digital no es un tema candente. Ismael, ¿es algo con lo que estás de acuerdo, especialmente en lo que respecta a la situación en México? (09:29) Ismael: Sí, creo que reconozco esa situación, y creo que es probablemente el caso para casi toda América Latina, con la excepción del sector académico en Brasil. Pero en Brasil, tienes mucha academia que ha estado publicando durante años. Han sido algunos de los primeros pensadores en torno a la informática y la sostenibilidad digital. Pero son la excepción. Y no creo que incluso en Brasil haya expandido fuera de la academia hacia la industria de manera significativa. En México, un poco como escuchamos para Colombia, he organizado varios eventos aquí sobre 'hacer que tu software sea verde'. He dado algunas charlas, etc. Estoy en contacto con muchas comunidades de desarrolladores aquí, en miles. Y creo que cada vez, sin excepción, cuando mencioné el tema, fue la primera vez que alguien recuerda haberse encontrado alguna vez con una charla o un evento dedicado al tema. Pero, como mencionó Catalina, realmente no hay muchos recursos accesibles en español. No hay entidades que estén presionando por ello. No hay una agenda normativa o política al respecto. Y las personas que han pensado en ello tienden a hacerlo de manera aislada. Hemos estado tratando de comenzar a construir comunidades a través de una serie de eventos sobre 'Haz que tu software sea verde'. Lanzamos uno en México. Esperamos, con Catalina, hacer algo así en Colombia también, y también fuera de América Latina. Pero en términos generales, diría que, al igual que Catalina, mi experiencia es que el tema resuena mucho. En el momento en que las personas escuchan al respecto, especialmente los desarrolladores, dicen: 'ah, tiene sentido'. Quiero hacer algo al respecto. Pero casi siempre es la primera vez que lo han pensado. El nivel de conciencia es extremadamente bajo, con la posible excepción de Bitcoin, que tiene una reputación ambiental global tan negativa que ha permeado la conciencia popular. Y la gente puede pensar: 'oh, sí, Bitcoin podría ser perjudicial para el medio ambiente'. Pero fuera de eso, no creo que sea una discusión que esté sucediendo en general. (12:04) Gaël: Entonces, ¿cómo es que nos enfrentamos a tantos problemas? Catalina, mencionaste que la falta de documentación en español era uno de los problemas, pero ¿hay algún otro obstáculo que un diseñador (porque estás más en el lado del diseño) enfrenta para empezar a 'verdear' la web? (12:28) Catalina: Estoy de acuerdo con lo que dijo Ismael, que el problema principal es la conciencia. Sí, muchas empresas y profesionales en América Latina aún no son conscientes de los impactos ambientales de sus actividades en línea. La falta de educación y conciencia sobre la sostenibilidad digital es un desafío clave para aquellos de nosotros que creamos y consumimos contenido en Internet. Otro punto muy importante es la resistencia al cambio. Algunas empresas y profesionales pueden resistirse al cambio, especialmente si creen que adoptar prácticas sostenibles podría aumentar sus costos o requerir esfuerzos adicionales. Otro punto son los desafíos del alojamiento verde. A veces, seleccionar alojamiento ecológico proporcionado por fuentes de(12:28) Catalina: Estoy de acuerdo con lo que dijo Ismael, que el problema principal es la conciencia. Sí, muchas empresas y profesionales en América Latina aún no son conscientes de los impactos ambientales de sus actividades en línea. La falta de educación y conciencia sobre la sostenibilidad digital es un desafío clave para aquellos de nosotros que creamos y consumimos contenido en internet. Otro punto muy importante es la resistencia al cambio. Algunas empresas y profesionales pueden resistirse al cambio, especialmente si creen que adoptar prácticas sostenibles podría aumentar sus costos o requerir esfuerzos adicionales. Otro punto son los desafíos del alojamiento ecológico. A veces, seleccionar alojamiento ecológico proporcionado por fuentes de energía renovable puede ser un desafío, ya que puede haber falta de opciones disponibles en ciertas áreas y los costos pueden ser altos.(13:36) Gaël: Ismael, ¿esto es algo que también has notado o tienes otro enfoque como desarrollador?(13:44) Ismael: Ambos. Estoy totalmente de acuerdo con todo lo que Catalina ha dicho, pero también creo que hay un problema estructural que está impulsando mucho de esto, y es la naturaleza del mercado de las TIC en América Latina. Creo que hay cuatro capas. Tienes la capa base de un sitio web muy pequeño y aplicaciones simples para un mercado nacional, que no son necesariamente de alta habilidad y tampoco son de alto precio. Eso significa que los desarrolladores generalmente no tienen mucho que decir en términos de qué o cómo construyen. Son freelancers. Hay una gran economía gig en torno a las TIC. Así que esa primera capa de la economía gig significa que incluso si te importa el software verde, e incluso si estás un poco informado sobre el software verde, las oportunidades para presentarlo, incorporarlo, discutirlo, son menores. Luego tienes la siguiente capa, donde tienes desarrolladores que están construyendo aplicaciones de software más sofisticadas y que compiten principalmente en precio, tienden a ser agencias de software, y este es otro escenario donde no se les dan muchos recursos, no se les da mucho tiempo para crear una aplicación y que no necesariamente tienen un alto nivel de formación o enfoque en la calidad. La importancia es producir productos y los trabajos son precarios. Así que, pensar a largo plazo en torno a la calidad verde, al impacto, a todas las cosas que las empresas podrían hacer si estuvieran construyendo un solo producto durante tres, cuatro o cinco años, es mucho más difícil de hacer si tienes un contrato de tres meses o cinco meses.(16:12) Gaël: En diferentes partes de América Latina, hay una fuerza laboral digital mucho más calificada y las personas están externalizando a América Latina y a menudo para proyectos a más largo plazo. Entonces, a menudo, en grandes empresas, las personas tendrán productos que están construyendo y tendrán equipos enteros con sede en México, Colombia u otras partes de América Latina. Y allí tendrás el nivel de experiencia necesario para construir quizás aplicaciones verdes, pero el proceso de encargo, las personas que toman las decisiones reales sobre arquitectura, diseño, contratación, están todas en Estados Unidos, Canadá, Europa, y no les importa particularmente el medio ambiente.Así que están logrando alta calidad por un precio más bajo. Y luego la capa final son los unicornios. Tienes algunas empresas tecnológicas latinoamericanas que han comenzado a surgir en México. No puedo recordar el número, puede haber cinco o diez unicornios. Entonces, estas personas están recibiendo miles de millones de dólares de capitalistas de riesgo, etc., y no son más verdes que cualquiera de las grandes empresas en el norte global. Entonces, aunque creo que hay una gran brecha entre la conciencia en América Latina y la conciencia en América del Norte y Europa, no creo que la brecha en la práctica sea igual de grande, porque en Europa y en América del Norte, la gente realmente está mucho más consciente de las implicaciones ambientales del software, pero no creo que estén particularmente más comprometidos o activos en la construcción de software más verde. Entonces, las mismas personas que están construyendo el software más contaminante a nivel mundial en Europa y América del Norte son las personas que están contratando a los desarrolladores en América Latina para construir ese software. Así que hay una serie de factores estructurales que, incluso si tienes el deseo de construir de manera verde, crearían barreras significativas. Estas son barreras significativas, porque tienes menos poder como un freelancer externo o contratista que si eres un ingeniero de planta en Google, por ejemplo, para decir, en realidad, 'quiero hacerlo verde'. Entonces, incluso si tienes la conciencia y los recursos, creo que hay economías y responsabilidades que están fuera de América Latina para algunas de las barreras que tenemos en la implementación de aplicaciones verdes.(19:30) Gaël: Ismael, eso es muy perspicaz para llegar hasta la estructura completa de la economía tecnológica en América Latina. En general, esto no son buenas noticias que has compartido porque hay un bajo nivel de conciencia general, falta de documentación en español, falta de verde (o ni siquiera una, de hecho) problemas estructurales, varios sobre quién da la orden de incentivos de ganancias a corto plazo. Supongo que fuiste tú, Ismael, quien también mencionó que hay una terrible falta de presión política sobre estos temas. Entonces, es bastante difícil intentar programar de manera verde o diseñar de manera verde en América Latina.Sin embargo, aquí estás, como miles de otros. Así que me gustaría cambiar un poco la narrativa aquí, y ver el vaso medio lleno o incluso un tercio o un cuarto lleno, y decir, bueno, soy solo un trabajador tecnológico en América Latina, ¿qué puedo aprovechar para ayudarme a construir un internet más verde? ¿Y qué tan vibrante es el ecosistema de TI verde en América Latina? Porque tal vez no sea tan vibrante como en otras partes del mundo, pero sé con certeza que hay personas trabajando en estos temas. ¿Cuáles son los recursos disponibles? Decimos que no hay muchos, pero creo que aún tenemos algunos recursos. ¿Con qué red debería conectarme? Entonces, Catalina, ¿te gustaría dar algunos consejos a alguien que comienza en el diseño o en el negocio del diseño sostenible? ¿Qué le dirías a esta persona?(21:07) Catalina: Hay algunos recursos disponibles como blogs, grupos de discusión y comunidades en línea. La oferta en español, al igual que en portugués, no es la misma que en comparación con idiomas como inglés o alemán. Pero creo que la sostenibilidad digital hoy en América Latina es un problema solo para grandes empresas privadas a nivel mundial, como Google, Apple, Facebook, Amazon, Microsoft, u otras grandes empresas en el país o región, por ejemplo, Globant, Nubank, Rappi, Natura, Mercado Libre. Pero se está notando como un tema ahora también por pequeños empresarios, microempresarios, diseñadores o desarrolladores. Debemos empezar a hablar sobre la sobriedad digital y cómo las acciones digitales de los ciudadanos comunes pueden contribuir. No solo cómo las empresas que consumimos pueden neutralizar las emisiones de carbono, sino también cómo nosotros, los usuarios, podemos apoyar y contribuir.(22.15) Gaël: Ismael, desde la perspectiva de un desarrollador, ¿cuáles serían los recursos y enfoques que defenderías?(23.23) Ismael: Me gustaría mencionar tres cosas, y no solo como desarrollador, sino también para emprendedores. Y creo que necesitamos entender que el software verde no es una barrera o un obstáculo a superar, sino también una oportunidad comercial. Por ejemplo, en toda América Latina, en México hay algo así como 71 millones de usuarios regulares de Internet, pero hay un gran porcentaje de personas con acceso intermitente muy bajo a Internet. En otras partes de América Latina, el número de personas con una conectividad deficiente es aún mayor. Si puedes diseñar una aplicación que sea verde, es probable que diseñes una aplicación que funcione bien con una baja conectividad; que use menos datos, por lo que es más barata de operar. Y es probable que diseñes una aplicación que sea flexible, dependiendo de la disponibilidad, lo que significa que tienes un mercado direccionable gigantesco que no existe en el norte global. Entonces, lo primero que diría es que los emprendedores, empresas e inventores en América Latina deberían pensar en ese gran mercado direccionable que podrían alcanzar si construyen software con patrones verdes. Y lo bueno del software verde es que terminas construyendo una aplicación que funciona tanto para la persona en ese pueblo que tiene conectividad completa, como para el empresario en la ciudad, y para la mujer presidenta en ese país. Y todos pueden usar la misma aplicación porque la desarrollaste 'verde'.La segunda cosa que mencionaría es que la regulación se está acercando. Ya ha comenzado. Europa, como siempre, va por delante. Francia va por delante de Europa. Estados Unidos está empezando a ponerse al día. Y esto significa que muchos de los trabajos de nearshoring que vendrán a nosotros en América Latina, muchas de las empresas en EE. UU. y en la UE que contratarán deudas latinoamericanas, en los próximos tres a cinco años, deberán demostrar que están reduciendo las emisiones en las aplicaciones que construyen. Entonces, eso significa que si eres un desarrollador o un estudiante en este momento, y dominas el arte del software verde, estarás en la vanguardia de la demanda laboral cuando haya una brecha de habilidades enorme. Y cuando la gente venga a México o a Colombia y diga: 'queremos contratar desarrolladores pero para cumplir con la regulación, debe construirse verde', si has comenzado a aprender ahora, estarás en un espacio competitivo único. Y la última cosa que quiero mencionar es la comunidad. La comunidad realmente importa. Ve a revisar la comunidad de software que mencionó Catalina. Climateaction.tech tiene una parte un poco creciente en América Latina.Pero también quiero decir a cualquier oyente que la Fundación Adora va a lanzar un proyecto para llevar el conocimiento de la computación verde a Wikipedia en español. Y hay subvenciones para esto. Así que, si alguien quiere asociarse con nosotros para crear lo que llaman Wikatones, creo, pero básicamente, asociarse con nosotros para crear nuevo contenido y traducir contenido existente de computación verde en Wikipedia, por favor, contáctame en LinkedIn y te agregaremos a la asociación. Y juntos podemos crear una explosión masiva de acceso al conocimiento en la plataforma más democrática disponible en español y eventualmente en portugués y otros idiomas también, pero comenzaremos en español.(26.33) Gaël: Y solo para retomar lo que has dicho, Ismael, de hecho, hay otra herramienta que ahora está disponible en español: el Mural Digital:-(26.47) Ismael: El mural digital.(26.33) Gaël: Sí. Ismael, mencionaste las comunidades, y sé que Catalina, en discusiones anteriores, mencionaste la importancia de la comunidad de código abierto como una de las soluciones, porque aún estamos tratando de responder a esta pregunta: '¿Dónde puedo empezar cuando soy un desarrollador o un diseñador o un emprendedor en el sector tecnológico en América Latina?'. ¿Quieres profundizar en la importancia de la comunidad de código abierto?(27.25) Catalina: Sí, la comunidad abierta en América Latina es muy grande, robusta y muy activa. El enfoque es la colaboración, el acceso abierto y el software de calidad. Tal vez la privacidad y la seguridad de datos son temas centrales. Pero es importante que mencione que en Medellín, mi ciudad, porque Medellín ganó el reconocimiento de la ciudad más innovadora del mundo en 2018, y la ciudad más inteligente del país en 2022. Y se conoce como, o se está llamando a ser conocida como, el valle del software. Aquí, hay suficientes becas para acercar a las personas a la tecnología. Y tenemos un talento humano rico en todos los temas digitales, y estamos en el lugar que tiene la mayoría de las comunidades tecnológicas dentro del país, o tal vez la región. Pero la pregunta es que nunca escuchamos sobre diseño web sostenible, software verde o sobriedad digital, solo hay enfoque en lenguajes de programación, bases de datos, inteligencia artificial, seguridad, marcos de marketing, bibliotecas, aplicaciones, etc. Y mi pregunta es ¿por qué? Las tecnologías digitales son responsables del 4% de todas las emisiones de gases de efecto invernadero del planeta, y la nube tiene una huella de carbono más grande que la industria de la aviación. Que 10 horas de video de alta calidad contienen más datos que todos los artículos de Wikipedia en formato de texto. Que la web y los centros de datos que alimentan nuestras vidas digitales consumen más energía y agua de la que podemos imaginar. Y es controvertido, porque es una ciudad que tiene muchas comunidades tecnológicas, pero nunca habla sobre este tema, este 'digital sostenible', y es una pregunta para mí todos los días.(29:56) Ismael: Creo que es un punto realmente excelente, Catalina, uno muy importante. También he descubierto que conozco a muchos desarrolladores mexicanos que están en la cima de los contribuyentes de código abierto a nivel internacional, personas que han contribuido al kernel de Linux o personas que están en el corazón de WordPress, o en el corazón de todo tipo de grandes proyectos de código abierto con contribuciones y reconocimientos internacionales realmente serios. Y creo que sería una población fantástica a la que apuntar. Y si están escuchando este podcast (y espero que sí), ciertamente lo estaré promoviendo.Creo que si tienes voz en tu área de código abierto, si eres un contribuyente serio como latinoamericano a un proyecto de código abierto, considera que puedes ser la persona que puede 'verdear' esa tecnología. Puedes estar en un lugar realmente bueno para impactar en una tecnología que afecta a millones de personas porque sabes lo que estás haciendo y tienes reputación y credenciales. Así que, a todos los contribuyentes latinoamericanos de código abierto, y especialmente a aquellos de ustedes que son realmente serios al respecto, considérense capaces de preguntarse la pregunta técnica: Si quisiera 'verdear' este proyecto de código abierto, ¿qué haría? Y luego reunan a las personas a su alrededor. Nos encontrarás a todos en todo el mundo apoyando sus esfuerzos.(31.44) Gaël: Gracias, Ismael. Eso es muy inspirador y realmente cierto también, porque el impulso que tenemos hoy en la sostenibilidad digital en Europa, solo para hablar de lo que estoy experimentando, se ha construido en gran medida en la comunidad de código abierto, y con personas que, como dijiste, comienzan a prestar atención, generalmente provienen de movimientos de privacidad, la cuestión de verdaderamente código abierto, y los problemas de propiedad intelectual en torno a los derechos digitales, etc. Y de repente se están cambiando a, 'oh, pero en realidad hay una parte faltante en mi rompecabezas, que es la sostenibilidad'.Y conectando con la pregunta de tener diferentes perspectivas, hay una última pregunta que quería hacerles a ambos. Yendo un poco más allá de este ángulo verde que teníamos, ¿hasta qué punto podemos, o no deberíamos, desconectar el medio ambiente de otros problemas como ética o justicia social en América Latina? Porque estábamos discutiendo antes de la entrevista que algunos, especialmente algunos países en América Latina, están plagados de desigualdades y podría ser difícil, de hecho, disociar ambos, o ¿deberíamos disociar ambos porque de lo contrario ningún tema obtiene tracción si intentamos conectar demasiadas cosas? ¿Cuáles son sus opiniones al respecto?(33.17) Catalina: Vale, creo que no podemos desconectar y separar estos temas, porque todo en el planeta es sistémico. El medio ambiente, la ética y la justicia social están interconectados en sistemas que dependen entre sí y juntos forman una visión completa de un mundo mejor y más brillante para todos. La justicia social significa que todos deben tener acceso igualitario a recursos y oportunidades, y que se deben proteger los derechos humanos básicos. Y la ética trata de hacer lo correcto y tratar nuestro entorno natural y otras formas de vida con respeto. Debemos actuar responsablemente para preservar la manada, no solo para nosotros, sino también para los demás. Nuestra ética es cómo tratamos a la manada y a otras formas de vida, tiene un impacto directo en la justicia social para las generaciones futuras. Pero creo que es imposible desconectar y separar estos problemas.(34:33) Ismael: Gracias, Catalina, por tu punto sobre la ética. En realidad, no vas a adoptar un software verde si no tienes valores que te impulsen hacia eso, ¿verdad? Es una elección basada en valores. Entonces, no puedes asociar valores desde esa decisión. Sin embargo, cuestionaría el enfoque, Gael, que presentaste, porque señalaste las desigualdades dentro de América Latina. Y creo que las desigualdades dentro de América Latina son una dimensión enorme de esto. Si no tienes acceso al agua, y mucho menos a internet, y mucho menos a la plena alfabetización, claramente tu capacidad para contribuir a – aunque supongo que estás contribuyendo a una huella digital más verde al no usarlo - pero estarás limitado en esas habilidades y conocimientos si tu acceso a la información es limitado. Sin embargo, la verdadera limitación para hacer más verde el mundo digital en América Latina, desde la minería hasta la cadena de suministro, pasando por la construcción de software, no son las desigualdades dentro de América Latina, sino las desigualdades entre América Latina y el resto del mundo. Son las dinámicas de cómo Europa, y en particular los Estados Unidos y Canadá, y China y los países más ricos, interactúan y consumen los recursos y productos latinoamericanos, las que determinan en gran medida el tipo de aplicaciones que se construyen. Entonces, el desafío de la justicia aquí es que definitivamente es crucial tener justicia dentro de América Latina. Pero una de las razones por las cuales no tienes regulaciones que funcionen es por la presión de empresas que no están basadas en América Latina. Así que diría que los problemas de justicia social son el sine qua non, la base para lograr la sostenibilidad digital en América Latina. Pero eso implica las desigualdades entre las personas que encargan la mayoría de los productos digitales en América Latina, que es el norte global, y las personas que los producen en el sur global. Esa desigualdad, creo, es la barrera clave. Si puedes hacer que todas las empresas que encargan software o minería o suministros o venden residuos electrónicos a América Latina desde el extranjero exijan estándares verdes, verás que la sostenibilidad digital se acelera dramáticamente. Y sin eso, toda la buena voluntad, toda la convicción, toda la dedicación de personas como nosotros en América Latina no logrará un impacto sistémico. Así que sí a las desigualdades, pero diría que las globales cuentan más que las regionales en esta etapa.(38.10) Catalina: Sí, estoy totalmente de acuerdo con toda la respuesta de Ismael.(38:17) Gaël: Sí, gracias Ismael, punto justo. También es definitivamente un problema de desigualdades en todo el mundo, y no solo dentro de un país o un continente. Ahora, siendo conscientes del tiempo, ¿quieren agregar solo una recomendación más para aprender más sobre la sostenibilidad digital si están basados en América Latina?(38.44) Catalina: Recomendaría las charlas de Elena Morettini, quien es la Jefa Global de Negocios Sostenibles en Globant, y comparte muchos valores, contenido sobre transición y eficiencia energética y tecnología verde para los negocios.(39.00) Gaël: ¿Y cuál sería tu elección, Ismael?(39.04) Ismael: Bueno, estoy en conflicto, porque voy a recomendar algo que quiero desalentar al mismo tiempo. Así que voy a decir por qué no quiero que lo uses. No quiero que uses ChatGPT y Bard y LLMs porque son ambientalmente 10 veces peores que la mayoría de las otras alternativas. Sin embargo, lo que diré es que, si la barrera principal en este momento es la información, si estás en América Latina, y si estás escuchando esto, probablemente tienes suficiente fluidez, por lo que no es tu barrera. Pero tendrás muchos colegas para quienes esto podría ser una barrera. Y lo que aconsejaría es buscar y buscar en Google todos los recursos, todos los nombres que mencionó Catalina, y están conectados. Entonces, en el momento en que encuentres uno, si encuentras a Jerry McGovern, si encuentras a Wholegrain Digital, si encuentras a las personas en este mismo podcast, si encuentras a quienes Gaël ha entrevistado, búscalos, básicamente busca todos los recursos que puedas en inglés y tradúcelos. Si puedes usar Google Translate primero, será más económico ambientalmente. Pero si no, siendo honesto, es un compromiso que estoy dispuesto a hacer. Si usar ChatGPT o Bard te equipará para volver verde las próximas 300 aplicaciones que construyas el resto de tu vida, ve y úsalo.(40:52) Gaël: Excelente. No esperaba una respuesta así. Pero eso es muy bueno. Es una carta jugada de manera hermosa. No voy a elegir, en realidad, voy a listar todos estos excelentes recursos, pero la herramienta es la traducción. Y estoy totalmente de acuerdo contigo, Ismael. A veces, usas una herramienta terrible de la manera correcta y vale la pena la inversión. Pero eso fue genial. Y como estamos de buen humor, Ismael, si tuvieras que compartir una noticia positiva que te haya hecho sentir optimista recientemente sobre nuestro camino hacia un mundo más sostenible, ¿cuál sería?(41.37) Ismael: Necesito decir que hay buenas noticias si las buscas. Alrededor de la COP27, hubo una serie de informes que salieron, que eran desastrosos. Eran terribles, realmente lo eran. La situación es absolutamente horrenda. Nos estamos moviendo demasiado lento. Pero enterradas en todos esos informes, había logros extraordinarios que nadie realmente informó. Así que estuve en París para la COP 21. Y recuerdo que al comienzo de la COP 21, el nivel de ambición estaba en el suelo. Ninguno de nosotros creía que esto iba a llevar a algún lado, no los gobiernos, no los activistas, no las ONG, no los académicos, nadie. Y luego la sociedad civil se movió. Las mayores manifestaciones en la historia del planeta y el uso de la tecnología, grupos como Avaaz creando movilizaciones. Y vi en tiempo real cómo los gobiernos cambiaron sus posiciones. Y cuando la gente no iba a aceptar ciertos objetivos, los alcaldes de las ciudades abrazaron esos objetivos. Terribles multinacionales abrazaron objetivos, y el ánimo cambió. Ahora, en ese momento, el escenario del statu quo, el escenario del negocio como siempre, nos estaba llevando hacia el peor apocalipsis. Los últimos informes que salieron dicen que estamos en camino a la catástrofe, pero nos hemos apartado del apocalipsis. Nadie ha rastreado el hecho de que en el momento más disfuncional en la toma de decisiones globales, la humanidad ha logrado cambiar de rumbo. Por primera vez en todos nuestros registros, para 2030, la AIE espera que las emisiones ya no crezcan, sino que se estabilicen. Nada de esto es suficiente para salvarnos de la catástrofe. Pero muestra que como comunidad global, tenemos el poder de cambiar verdaderamente los escenarios. Entonces, necesitamos entender ese poder, no volvamos a ser complacientes y digamos ‘todo está bien’, pero también no olvidemos que la esperanza existe empíricamente.(44:15) Gaël: Muchas gracias, Ismael. Puedo comentar sobre la COP21 que, sí, la sociedad civil jugó un papel importante, pero oye, este es el episodio sobre América Latina, así que supongo que también debemos felicitar a uno de mis héroes de toda la vida ahora, que es Cristiana Figueres, obviamente, porque si no hubiera estado allí, liderando la delegación climática de la ONU, con sus increíbles habilidades diplomáticas, y todo lo demás que construyó a su alrededor, y el equipo que trajo, etc., no creo que se hubiera logrado nada (sin restar importancia al papel masivo que jugó la sociedad civil también). No estoy tratando de darle un porcentaje aquí, pero solo reconociendo que sí, creo que sin ella, estaríamos en una situación realmente difícil en este momento.(45.08) Gaël: ¿Y tú, Catalina? ¿Hay alguna buena noticia que te gustaría compartir?(45.14) Catalina: En cuanto a este punto, necesito hablar sobre WordPress. Esta es mi comunidad, ¿verdad?, y algunas noticias excelentes recientes son que la comunidad global de WordPress ha formado un grupo de sostenibilidad. Con 264 miembros mostrando un creciente interés en el tema, aunque solo de América Latina, como Ismael y yo, pero este es un paso importante para otras personas, otros humanos, ya sea España u otros países en Europa. Pero también es alentador ver que varios desarrolladores están reduciendo el tamaño de sus complementos para hacerlos más eficientes y respetuosos con el medio ambiente. La conciencia sobre la importancia de volver verdes los servidores está aumentando, donde cada pequeña contribución, como eliminar un solo kilobyte, o millones de sitios web, puede reducir significativamente las emisiones de carbono. Además, es inspirador ver a más personas comprometidas en crear un web más sostenible. Esa es una buena noticia, y buena para la comunidad global de WordPress, porque es un buen paso.(46:44) Gaël: Muchas gracias a ambos por compartir noticias tan positivas al final, y por el increíble trabajo que están haciendo en América Latina, y mucho más allá de simplemente una internet verde, para concientizar sobre la huella ambiental de nuestro mundo digital. Gracias también por estar aquí y conectarse conmigo a pesar de estar en una zona horaria muy diferente, y por adaptarse a todas esas diferencias. Así que gracias mucho. Fue genial tenerlos a ambos. Espero que este episodio sea muy útil para las personas basadas en esta hermosa región del mundo. Y como de costumbre, pondré todas las referencias en las notas del episodio. Gracias mucho por estar aquí, ambos.(47.35) Ismael: Gracias. Gran oportunidad y genial hablar con ambos, Catalina y Gaël. Realmente gran oportunidad. Gracias.(47.44) Catalina: Gracias, Gaël. Gracias, Ismael. Realmente, estoy muy, muy feliz de compartir.(47.51) Gaël: Gracias por escuchar este episodio de Green IO. En el episodio 27, hablaremos sobre todas las herramientas proporcionadas por la Green Software Foundation para descarbonizar el software. Hay bastantes, y Nassim Hussain, el Director Ejecutivo de Green Software en persona, nos dará un recorrido guiado. Y también podría compartir algunos anuncios exclusivos antes de la gran conferencia Decarb Software 2023. Así que manténganse sintonizados.Antes de que se vayan, un pequeño mensaje de nuestro patrocinador. No, todavía estoy bromeando. Green IO es un podcast gratuito e independiente. Y necesitamos tu ayuda para mantenerlo así. Puedes ayudarnos apoyándonos en Tipeee. El enlace está en las notas del episodio. Pero si no puedes donar, está bien. Puedes apoyarnos difundiendo la palabra. Y lo sé, ya te lo he pedido varias veces, y te estoy molestando con esto, pero por favor califica el podcast con cinco estrellas en Apple o Spotify. Y si ya lo has hecho, pídele a un amigo que lo haga también. Esta es la única forma en que obtendremos nuevos oyentes a través de la búsqueda en estas plataformas. Así que gracias mucho por calificar el podcast. Es súper genial de tu parte. Y con suerte obtendremos más oyentes y más tecnólogos responsables uniéndose al programa. Saben, cada voto realmente vale mil(47.51) Gaël: Gracias por escuchar este episodio de Green IO. En el episodio 27, hablaremos sobre todas las herramientas proporcionadas por la Green Software Foundation para descarbonizar el software. Hay bastantes, y Nassim Hussain, el Director Ejecutivo de Green Software en persona, nos dará un recorrido guiado. Y tal vez también comparta algunos anuncios exclusivos antes de la gran conferencia Decarb Software 2023. Así que manténganse atentos.Antes de que se vayan, un pequeño mensaje de nuestro patrocinador. No, todavía estoy bromeando. Green IO es un podcast gratuito e independiente. Y necesitamos su ayuda para que siga siendo así. Pueden ayudarnos apoyándonos en Tipeee. El enlace está en las notas del episodio. Pero si no pueden donar, está bien. Pueden apoyarnos difundiendo la palabra. Sé que ya se los he pedido varias veces y los estoy molestando con esto, pero por favor califiquen el podcast con cinco estrellas en Apple o Spotify. Y si ya lo han hecho, pidan a un amigo que también lo haga. Esta es la única manera en que obtendremos nuevos oyentes a través de la búsqueda en estas plataformas. Así que muchas gracias por calificar el podcast. Es realmente genial de su parte. Y con suerte, obtendremos más oyentes y más tecnólogos responsables uniéndose al programa. Saben, cada voto realmente vale mil likes en YouTube, créanme, cuando comparan con YouTubers muy exitosos y podcasters muy exitosos.Ahora, si no tienen Spotify o Apple Podcasts, está perfectamente bien, compartan un episodio en redes sociales o directamente con un familiar, y será mucho más efectivo que muchos anuncios. Así que muchas gracias por eso. En serio, gracias por su apoyo. Significa mucho para nosotros. Nosotros siendo yo, pero también Tani Levitt, nuestro increíble productor de podcast, y Jill Tellier, nuestra increíble curadora de podcast. Estamos encantados de ayudarlos a ustedes, los tecnólogos responsables, dispersos por todo el mundo, a construir un mundo digital más verde... byte a byte.❤️ Never miss an episode! Hit the subscribe button on the player above and follow us the way you like.  📧 Our Green IO monthly newsletter is also a good way to be notified, as well as getting carefully curated news on digital sustainability packed with exclusive Green IO contents. 

In this episode, Ines Akrap and Lukasz Mastalerz discuss the impact of the first ever Sustainability Guidelines by W3C on digital companies and service providers. They highlight the need for low-carbon websites and the importance of meeting sustainability requirements for call for tenders. The speakers also delve into topics like avoiding digital clutter, implementing browser caching, and the importance of high impact, low effort optimizations for web performance. They touch on sustainable web design, renewable energy records, AI solutions, and share a preview of upcoming interviews with industry experts in digital sustainability.

Niklas Sundberg and Tereze Gaile join the podcast to discuss IT sustainability in SaaS companies. They talk about embedding sustainability practices in software development, pressuring suppliers for sustainability, challenges in raising awareness, and the optimism in the sustainability space.

Harriet Kingaby and Mathieu Jahnich discuss greenwashing, responsible marketing, and communications at the intersection of advertising, human rights, and climate change. They cover topics such as defining greenwashing, avoiding it while promoting CSR actions, legal landscape, changing regulations, and examples of fines and NGO lawsuits. They emphasize the importance of transparent communication and learning from failures in environmental messaging. Listen to avoid falling into the greenwashing trap!