Smoke 'Em If You Got 'Em Podcast

Journalism is having a hell of a week. At least, the Washington Post is. Nancy and Sarah launch with the curious case of tech reporter Taylor Lorenz and her much-corrected story on social media influencers in the Depp-Heard trial. Discussed: Stealth editing, Twitter blocking, when journalists become the story. Then we turn to the saga of Dave Weigel, whose dumb joke (a retweet!) got him suspended for a month. Without pay. To unpack this drama, Nancy introduces us to the complicated character of Felicia Sonmez, a WaPo national reporter who led the drumbeat against Weigel’s re-tweet and has previously sued her own publication.The story whisks us back to 2017, when Sonmez had a drunken encounter with journalist Jonathan Kaiman, a mess Nancy unfolds in her essay “The Shiv in the Hand of Kindness.” Discussed: Kobe Bryant, regret sex vs. sexual assault, and appropriating the pain of others to heal a hurt that can’t be touched. “How have we made things better for women?” Nancy asks, and Sarah has some ideas, but it’s a good question. We end by discussing the shadow side of “happy hedonism,” why everyone’s so angry, and why sex can be something sacred.Smoke 'Em If You Got 'Em tastes better when you become a free or paid subscriber.Episode Notes:Taylor Lorenz on Twitter “Taylor Lorenz slams MSNBC over harassment segment: ‘You f—ed up royally’” by Thomas Barrabi (NY Post)“Who won the Depp-Heard trial? Content creators that went all-in” by Taylor Lorenz (WaPo)“Delayed Moves, Poolside Videos and Postmates Spon: The State of TikTok Collab House” by Taylor Lorenz (NYT)Legal Bytes on YouTube and InstagramThatUmbrellaGuy on Twitter and YouTube“What Are the Rules About ‘Off the Record?’” by Celeste Mitchell (MediaBistro)“‘All Rippers and No Skippers’: How Taylor Lorenz Became Part of the Story” by Annie Goldsmith, story that Sarah couldn’t read because paywall (The Information)About Being Blocked (Twitter instructions)“The Washington Post suspends reporter David Weigel over sexist retweet” by Oliver Darcy (CNN)Dave Weigel on Wikipedia and TwitterCam Harless on YouTube and TwitterFelicia Sonmez on Twitter “Court dismisses Washington Post reporter’s lawsuit against the paper and its former top editor” by Oliver Darcy (CNN)“The Shiv in the Hand of Kindness” by Nancy Rommelmann (Arc Digital)“Get Out of My Bedroom, Andrew Cuomo!” by Nancy Rommelmann (Tablet)“I’m Radioactive” (about Jonathan Kaiman) by Emily Yoffe (Reason)The Problem with Everything: My Journey Through the New Culture Wars by Meghan Daum“Ask a Former Drunk: It’s Time to Talk About Alcohol and Sex” by Sarah Hepola (Jezebel) The Ezra Klein Show (NYT)Going Solo: The Extraordinary Rise and Surprising Appeal of Living Alone, by Eric KlinenbergCarl Sagan’s opening sequence of CosmosOutro: Lana Del Rey, “Love Song” Smoke 'Em If You Got 'Em swears you will never regret becoming a free or paid subscriber. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit smokeempodcast.substack.com/subscribe

Nancy is reporting from San Francisco, because your roving journos go where the story leads, whether that’s a discount motel room in Fairfax, Virginia, or a 30-room mansion with a view of the Painted Ladies. First order of business is not The Verdict, but Teal Swan and recent episodes of Hulu series The Deep End, whose jaw-dropping scenes of alternate therapy have pushed Sarah from her neutrality. Embedding trauma in your lost followers is dangerous stuff. By the way, Sarah and Nancy agree you can use your sex appeal for the greater good, but that ain’t what Teal Swan is doing.Now for That Verdict. How does a trial change when it has a jury? How could Heard’s statement that she was “a public figure representing domestic abuse” be defamatory? Is this verdict “chilling,” as legacy media claims, or a “major victory” as Depp supporters believe? What if it’s neither? Discussed: blackout drinking, revelations of the Depp-Heard therapy sessions, and why the ACLU is not covering itself in glory.Various and sundry: * Sarah can’t ID one Gary Cooper movie; Nancy doesn’t grock what Sarah means when she asks about Maverick. * Sarah finds social psychologist Jonathan Haidt’s voice “fundamentally soothing”; teenage Nancy runs into Paul Newman. * Sarah waxes poetic about crow’s feet; Nancy explains why you should always keep tweezers in your car.* Sarah goes for brooding pretty boys; Nancy likes he-men. Or something like that.Smoke 'Em If You Got 'Em only gets better when you become a free or paid subscriber.Episode notes:The Deep End, documentary series about Teal Swan Sarah compares a Teal Swan group meeting to those held at Esalen (which has a pretty swank location tbh)Teal Swan addresses episode two of The Deep End:Satanic ritual abuse + hot thigh action is a thing“The Actual Malice of the Johnny Depp Trial,” by A.O. Scott (NYT)“‘Men Always Win’: Survivors ‘Sickened’ by the Amber Heard Verdict,” by EJ Dickson (Rolling Stone)“Jessica Winter: The Johnny Depp–Amber Heard Verdict Is Chilling” (New Yorker)Texts from Depp’s assistant Stephen Deuters, ruled out of US trial as hearsay (reddit)Depp-Heard Marital Therapist Dr. Laurel Anderson testimony“The Depp-Heard Trial and the Demise of the ACLU,” by Jonathan TurleyMeanwhile, over in East Germany…“The Case Against the Trauma Plot,” by Parul Sehgal (New Yorker)Blackout: Remembering the Things I Drank to Forget, by Sarah Hepola“The ACLU Has Lost Its Way,” by Lara Bazelon (Atlantic)Mighty Ira official trailerThe Fountainhead (1949), official trailer”America’s Girls” podcast, with Sarah Hepola (Texas Monthly)“Ex-Washington cheerleaders shaken by lewd videos: ‘I Don’t Think They Saw Us As People,’” by Beth Reinhard, Liz Clarke, Alice Crites, and Will Hobson (Washington Post) As I Am, by Patricia Neal (Amazon)“Uniquely Stupid and Incredibly Coddled: Jonathan Haidt On How We Lost Our Collective Minds (And Whether We’ll Ever Find Them Again),” The Unspeakable podcast with Meghan DaumWe love the strikingly brilliant journalist Pamela Colloff, and you will tooOutro song: “Cruel to Be Kind” by Nick LoweAnd for all those hustlers out there …Run the table by becoming a free or paid subscriberEveryone is welcome at our party, so please share the love that is Smoke 'Em If You Got 'Em This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit smokeempodcast.substack.com/subscribe

It’s the day after Memorial Day, and we reflect on our distance from military conflict and Sarah’s first podcast-related injury. After revealing our new summer looks (Nancy looks very Gwen Stefani in her lavender chiffon; Sarah’s wearing the same yellow housedress she has on every day, a la Jeff Goldblum in The Fly), we share notes on Ricky Gervais and Super Nature, comedy’s right to offend, and the concept of “punching down.” What depresses us about Depp-Heard: Nancy on fabricating abuse, Sarah on the polarized nature of legal arguments, which reminds her of Twitter and the culture wars. What we didn’t learn much about in this trial: defamation. But what we love is our listeners, whose letters we’ll read in a future episode. Send them in! Nancy updates us on Chesa Boudin and the Weather Underground before heading to San Francisco. Sarah’s been watching Goodfellas. Has cinema ever had a better opening? (Prove it.) Is it possible women don’t like Goodfellas (and who are those women)? Ray Liotta’s hotness, discussed. Sarah’s bid for a date with Robert De Niro, discussed. Nancy charms us with a New York mafia story from her youth, and drops the cutest accent.Coming soon: Depp-Heard AMA, and Sarah’s long essay! Nancy’s dispatches on Chesa Boudin recall! But where you come in is those letters. We have the best listeners. Don’t stop now.Smoke 'Em If You Got 'Em wants to know you better, in a not-scary way.Episode notes:We like Ricky Gervais in Super Nature okay, but have you seen him in The Office. No, not that The Office. Wait…Ricky Gervais’ Super Nature on Rotten TomatoesCamille Vasquez’s closing arguments on Amber Heard’s restraining order (IG video)Definition of Defamation (say that five times fast) on WikipediaThe Fifth Column w/ Lara Bazelon: “This Podcast Is Violence”Ray Liotta for Chantix (Kyle Dunnigan)Real Ray Liotta for ChantixWiseguy: Life in a Mafia Family by Nicholas Pileggi (Wikipedia)“Ray Liotta, of ‘Goodfellas’ and ‘Field of Dreams,’ dies at 67,” by Neil Genzlinger (NYT)Opening of Goodfellas is the best opening ever? Can anyone disprove it?Goodfellas long tracking shot at New York’s Copacabana night club Son of Sam laws (First Amendment Encyclopedia)Sarah couldn’t find the story about women and Goodfellas she once read, but this might have been the instigator on that exchange: “Women Are Not Capable of Understanding Goodfellas” by Kyle Smith (New York Post)Ronin, official trailer Jim Beaver, IMDb pageDebi Mazar (whom Sarah accidentally calls Debi Mazur, with apologies) on IMDbThe Queens of Montague Street, by Nancy Rommelmann (Amazon)Robert De Niro is not married and 78 years old (verdict: dateable)Outro: “Layla” (outro), Derek and the DominoesReal goodfellas listen to Smoke 'Em If You Got 'Em, and you should too. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit smokeempodcast.substack.com/subscribe

After Sarah makes Nancy blush by talking about vibrators, we turn to the buzz that is Depp v. Heard. Kate Moss, TMZ leaks, potential ethical violations on the stand — the final days of testimony brought the bombshells. Lawyers: We have questions! Restraining order protocol? Can you talk to anyone about a trial when you’re on a jury? Tell us in the comments!About that Smoke ’Em merch …The real fireworks start when Sarah and Nancy discuss Teal Swan, the controversial spiritual leader Nancy calls a dangerous cult leader and Sarah sees as a fascinating study in modern self-help. What makes a movement a “cult”? Why are people so lost? Sarah plugs one of her favorite essays, a “turkey leg of a cultural critique” by Tom Wolfe about the search for the authentic self. Listener alert! We plan to record an episode of reader mail soon, so keep sending your questions, topics of interest, eruptions of outrage, and what sort of pie you want Nancy to bake and why it’s pecan.Episode notes:“20 Years Later, How The ‘Sex And The City’ Vibrator Episode Created a Lasting Buzz,” by Lynn Comella (Forbes)“Jane Fonda Says People Kept Sending Her Vibrators After an Episode of Grace and Frankie,” by Carrie Wittmer (Glamour)Dr. Spiegel (witness for defense) cross-examined over ethics of evaluating Depp The Goldwater Rule (Psychology Today)Johnny Depp’s final testimony: “It’s insane.”“Amber Heard makes tearful return to stand, denies leaking photos to TMZ” (NY Post)James From Court (Twitter)Number of jurors in a civil case in Virginia (Virginia.gov)Nick Wallis, “Reporting Depp v. Heard” (YouTube)Every time Nancy uses the word “axiomatic,” Sarah wonders what it means, so if you’re in the same boat (Merriam-Webster)The Deep End official trailer“The Gateway: Teal Swan,” six-part podcast series by Gizmodo (Apple podcasts)“Ten Signs of a Narcissistic Sociopath” (Choosing Therapy)Michelle Remembers is the book Nancy couldn’t remember (Amazon). Here’s the original cover, holy.Teal Swan on InstagramThe Teal Swan Cult (w/ ex-member Andey Fellowes)Barbara Snow, therapist infamous for stoking the Satanic panic and whom Teal Swan credits with helping to reveal suppressed memories of ritual abuse (Wikipedia)Nancy wrote a long feature for Portland Monthly about cult leader Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, in which she went out to the ranch in Eastern Oregon; it had been turned into a Christian children’s camp. The guardhouse was still at the entrance, and the place looked like an abandoned set of an old Western movie, rather than where orange-clad devotees lined the road as Rajneesh waved from one of his 94 Rolls Royces and planned mass poisonings. Alas this piece is not online! But here’s another she wrote, an interview with Win McCormack, co-founder of Mother Jones and other publications and a longtime critic of the Rajneesh and his followers.Wild Wild Country doc about Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh (which Sarah accidentally called Wild Wild West, a very different movie), and speaking of: Nancy was speaking with a friend who lives in Byron Bay, Australia, who said that, while Rajneesh died in 1990, his followers live on, including some in nearby Mullumbimby.Sarah went down the rabbit hole with some Jordan Peterson videos around 2018, the same time Nancy read and mostly liked Peterson’s 12 Rules for Life Shot in the Heart by Mikal Gilmore, which, yes, we’ve mentioned before and in all likelihood will mention in just about every episode because it’s that goodGoing Clear by Lawrence Wright, which Nancy listened to on audio and recommendsTeal Swan responds to the first episode of The Deep EndTom Wolfe essay on “Me” decade (New York Magazine) The Promise of Paradise, by Satya Bharti Franklin, is clear-eyed, frightening and heartbreaking. Anyone who says they are enlightened and the only person in the world worth following is guaranteed to bring unending misery to others. Ignore them.“The People vs. Chesa Boudin,” by Annie Lowrey (Atlantic)“Two cop killers and their progressive progeny: Kathy Boudin, David Gilbert, Chesa Boudin and progressive DAs,” by Ken Frydman (NY Daily News)“Kathy Boudin: A Great Life and a Great Loss” (Columbia University eulogy)Days of Rage, America's Radical Underground, the FBI, and the Forgotten Age of Revolutionary Violence, by Bryan BurroughNancy Rommelmann and Sarah Hepola on Back Talk with Bill SchulzOutro song (for Teal Swan): “Sweet Talkin’ Woman,” Electric Light OrchestraWe won’t MAKE you subscribe to “Smoke 'Em If You Got 'Em” YET, but we’ll love you more if you do. And if you PAY for it? Lordy, look out This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit smokeempodcast.substack.com/subscribe

by Sarah HepolaI met Nick Wallis in the cafeteria of the Fairfax, VA, courtroom on my first day. I was still looking for the gaggle of reporters I assumed I’d find, but I was also looking for an outlet. My phone was nearly dead. I asked a reporter tapping away on his laptop in the mostly empty room, and he pulled out his ear buds long enough to politely motion to an outlet beside him. He was in a dapper suit, and he looked so familiar, but I thought maybe I knew him from TV — and then I overheard him chatting with a passerby. That accent!“This might sound crazy,” I said, leaning over from a nearby table, “but are you Nick Wallis?”The British are so charming. “Well, yes I am.” Smoke 'Em If You Got 'Em is a reader-supported publication. It’d be so much cooler if you became a free or paid subscriber.I’d been listening to Wallis’ podcast, Reporting Depp v. Heard, since I’d become obsessed with the cultural, moral, and psychological tangle that is this sordid drama. Legally, Depp v. Heard is a defamation suit in which a tarnished superstar sues his complicated ex-wife over a 2018 op-ed in the Washington Post. But more broadly, it’s a watershed moment in #metoo, the culture of celebrity, and media itself. I went online looking for writers and thinkers who could me piece this puzzle together, and lucky for me, I found Nick Wallis.Wallis learned his trade at the BBC, and he represents an old-school (and increasingly old-fashioned) way of doing business. He seeks to remain neutral. His questions are fair, curious, well-informed, and tough when they need to be. At a time when choosing sides is a guaranteed way to increase followers, he delights in various perspectives, from the legions of Depp super-fans at the courthouse (who come off as reasonable, for the record) to rare Amber Heard supporters (who describe civil treatment at the courthouse, despite Heard’s grotesque treatment online). In one interview, Wallis introduces us to a therapist working with male victims of domestic abuse, who sees Depp’s testimony as an inspiration. In another, he introduces us to a female barrister who sees the trial as potentially devastating for female victims. This kind of broad-range journalism is fading in influence. The rise of YouTubers and social media personalities marks a media transformation. Some of the #lawtube commentary has been incisive, comprehensive, fascinating, while the viral videos tend to have all the nuance of an emoji. But for better or worse, most people are experiencing this trial via two-minute story reels and sound bites. Wallis, on the other hand, has witnessed the whole bloody ordeal — and lived to tell the tale.We met at a DC apartment building where Wallis was staying. We spoke about how the trial in Britain was different, why so few journalists showed up in person, the women growing weary of #metoo, and how this trial will reverberate for decades.By the way, a British documentarian was filming us as we spoke. She’s been trailing Wallis for a project on the changing nature of journalism. About ten minutes before we wrap, you’ll hear us fumble with an ice machine that kicked on, and because I like to show you the seams (or because I forgot to edit this part), you’ll hear us readjust. I’ll keep you posted on the documentary; it’s a topic of fascination around these parts. This post is public so feel free to share it. Smoke 'Em If You Got 'Em is a reader-supported publication. Wouldn’t you feel less guilty and maybe even morally superior if you became a free or paid subscriber?Episode Notes:Reporting Depp v. Heard: The comprehensive website“Reporting Depp v. Heard: Introductory Episode” (YouTube)“I Lost My Virginity to David Bowie,” by Lori Mattix as told to Michael Kaplan (Thrillist)“What Should We Say About David Bowie and Lori Maddox?,” by Jia Tolentino (Jezebel) “Amber Heard and the Death of #MeToo,” by Michelle Goldberg (NYT)“Why It’s Time to Believe Amber Heard,” by Raven Smith (Vogue)Rolf Harris, Australian/UK entertainer convicted of sexual assault in 2014 (Wiki)James From Court (Twitter)“LEAKED Video PROVES Amber Heard is LYING About Her AWFUL Allegations in Australia — She’s DESPICABLE” (Popcorned Planet on YouTube) This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit smokeempodcast.substack.com/subscribe

Nancy and Sarah launch by talking about a slavering press desperate for sensational stories — but we’re not discussing today’s climate, we’re talking about the 1920s, when Roscoe “Fatty” Arbuckle became the doomed villain in a crime he never committed. We contemplate boobs (again), the greatness of Mariska Hargitay, the cruel online backlash against Amber Heard, and why we don’t like gender tribalism (or tribalism of any kind).  We heap admiration on Joan Didion, along with the journalist who recently wrote about her, Caitlyn Flanagan. One of the best-loved journalists of her generation, Flanagan also became a feminist bugaboo thanks to provocative stories on abortion, working moms, Woody Allen, topics she tackles with humor, moral precision, and tremendous style. Nancy and Sarah find themselves divided on the virtues of sentimentality, but they’re both big on the drug that is falling in love.You asked (Ed: did they?), we deliver: First true-crime book under discussion will be The Snakehead: An Epic Tale of the Chinatown Underworld and the American Dream, by Patrick Radden Keefe. Date TBD, conversation likely on Zoom, likely sometime second week of June — NREpisode notes:Make your Bitmoji!Hollywood Babylon, Jayne Mansfield cover, and Hollywood Babylon II, Elizabeth Taylor“Fatty Arbuckle and the Birth of Celebrity Scandal,” by Michael Schulman (New Yorker)Birth of Hollywood, episode 1 (BBC):The Hays Code (Wikipedia)Mariska Hargitay (Instagram)Charlie Chaplin, The Gold Rush, Roll Dance“The Narcissism At The Heart Of The Johnny Depp And Amber Heard Trial,” by Dani Di Placido (Forbes)“How to Become a Dangerous Person,” Nancy Rommelmann/Prager U (YouTube)“#MeToo is over if we don’t listen to ‘imperfect victims’ like Amber Heard,” by Martha Gill (Guardian)“Why We Love to Watch a Woman Brought Low,” by Jessica Bennett (NYT)“Why the Internet Hates Amber Heard,” by Kaitlyn Tiffany (Atlantic)“Amber Heard's 'sexual violence' evidence against Johnny Depp will be kept secret in his libel claim against The Sun despite him arguing claims should be made public” (Daily Mail)Correction: Sarah called Depp’s attorney Alan Waldman, but his name is ADAM Waldman. Management regrets the error.Saturday Night Live’s cold open on Depp-Heard:“Joan Didion’s Magic Trick,” by Caitlin Flanagan (Atlantic)Selected Caitlin Flanagan stories. Full Atlantic archive here.* "The Autumn of Joan Didion”* “The Humiliation of Aziz Ansari”* “Caroline Calloway Isn’t a Scammer”* “The Dishonesty of the Abortion Debate”* “Losing the Rare in Safe, Legal, and Rare.’”* “What Mia Farrow Knew”* “I’ll Tell You the Secret of Cancer”* “Tell Children the Truth”“McCarthy on Didion: Pro and Con,” letter to the editor (NYT)“Imagining Enemies: Nora Ephron’s theory of Mary McCarthy vs. Lillian Hellman,” by Katie Roiphe (Slate). Ed. note: The play about Hellman-McCarthy is Nora Ephron’s Imaginary FriendsThe Last Thing He Wanted, by Joan DidionSlouching Towards Bethlehem, by Joan Didion“Joan Didion, 1934-2021,” by Nancy Rommelmann“Things Fall Apart: Thoughts on Joan Didion,” by Sarah Hepola“The Fifth Column” podcast live event, with Michael Rapaport and Colin Quinn“The Lawyers Who Ate California, Part 1,” Matt Taibbi SubstackAfter Hours official trailerThe Center Will Not Hold official trailerOutro song: Billy Bragg & Wilco, “California Stars” But one last thing … This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit smokeempodcast.substack.com/subscribe

From a motel room five miles from the site of Depp v. Heard in suburban Virginia, Sarah describes the fascinating culture around the courthouse: The mother-daughter fans screaming as the star waves from his black SUV; the hard-cores who queue up before midnight in a parking garage to secure a spot at the next day’s trial; the YouTube brand builders; the Depp lawyers who have become online folk heroes; and the lone crumpled figure who could only be a journalist (a French one). But what Sarah doesn’t see is American reporters. She and Nancy have some ideas why.We discuss the suffering extended and inflicted, by the high-profile sobriety coach charging Depp $100k/month even though the star was still smoking weed and drinking wine; by a longtime friend and former band member who encouraged Depp to go to AA but found himself cut off after he testified in the UK trial; of Amber Heard captured on a security camera, canoodling with James Franco in the elevator of Depp’s penthouse.Is Sarah right when she wonders if Depp has much in common with his iconic character, Edward Scissorhands, in the way he “hurts everything he touches”? Is Nancy speaking common sense when she says she finds “people using misery as a commodity to further their own agenda beyond disgusting”? Plus Sarah meets a heroic presence, the one journalist she was hoping to find.Want to talk Depp v. Heard (or anything else?). Head over to Smoke ‘Em’s first discussion thread! Episode notes: “Amber Heard: I spoke up against sexual violence — and faced our culture’s wrath. That has to change.” ACLU-written Opinion piece by “Amber Heard” (WaPo)“Amber Heard and the Death of #MeToo,’ by Michelle Goldberg (NYT)“The ACLU Says It Wrote Amber Heard's Domestic Violence Op-Ed and Timed It to Her Film Release,” by Audra Heinrichs (Jezebel)Johnny Depp slams cabinets while Amber Heard films and asks, “What happened?”Blackout: Remembering the Things I Drank to Forget, by Sarah Hepola“Digging JFK’s Grave Was His Honor,” by Jimmy BreslinNick Wallis, “Reporting Depp v. Heard” (YouTube)What’s Eating Gilbert Grape? trailer, 1993“Undercover on High School’s Ritziest Glitziest Night: It All Goes Down at Prom” by Sarah Hepola (Austin Chronicle)Hot Topic Johnny Depp T-shirt“Ellen Barkin Said Johnny Depp Was a ‘Jealous Man’ During Their ‘Sexual’ Relationship,” by Victoria Bekiempis (New York)Correction: Nancy thought the name of the recent series Barkin starred in was “Animals.” It was in fact “Animal Kingdom.” Management regrets the error.“Who Is Camille Vasquez? 5 Things to Know About Johnny Depp’s Lawyer Amid Amber Heard Defamation Trial,” by Miranda Siwak (Us Magazine)Amber Heard and James Franco Cuddling in Elevator (Law & Crime channel)Americans Are Way More Interested in the Heard v. Depp Trial Than Roe v. Wade (Axios)Scenes from a celebrity trial, including the accidental star James from Court.Also, there were alpacas.Outro music: “21 Jump Street” theme song, Holly RobinsonAnd in case you were wondering which Johnny Depp poster Sarah had in her bedroom.Stay tuned for more in-depth coverage on the trial. It’s pretty wild. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit smokeempodcast.substack.com/subscribe

It’s the morning after the Super Flower Blood Moon, Sarah needs to pack for the Depp-Heard trial in Virginia, and Nancy’s in a hotel bed in Austin, but first! More on Grey’s Anatomy writer/fabulist Elisabeth Finch (in scrubs, above), who faked cancer (and a kidney transplant, and the suicide of her brother, and and and …) because “she loved the attention so much.” Sarah wonders why we’re so fascinated by female con artists, especially ones who go down in flames, and if we’re the suckers who are being taken in — or the ones being exposed.We bounce over to the Depp-Heard trial, where Sarah wonders — not for the first time — what if Amber is telling the truth? We’ve found two women who think so.The Joan Didion line Sarah couldn’t recall: “Writers are always selling someone out.” (Not all writers!) (Well.) But Nancy’s friend has a killer line of his own: “Online is the poison women were waiting for.” Thots?Nancy plans on taking you on a tour of Chinatown NYC for Smoke ‘Em’s first true crime book-dealie (date TBA) on The Snakehead. Sarah’s last-minute movie club choice? Apocalypse Now, and who knows? Maybe she’ll go to Vietnam.About those dick pics…Plus: An offer for cookies and poundcake from Nancy’s hot little hands! Be the tenth paid subscriber after this episode launches and they will be sent to you.Episode notes:Super Flower Blood Moon eclipse from around the world (video)“Scene Stealer: The True Lies of Elisabeth Finch,” Part One and Part Two, by Evgenia Peretz (Vanity Fair)Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy is a bad, bad thingBad Blood: Secrets and Lies in a Silicon Valley Startup, by John Carreyrou “No Exit Plan: The Lies and Follies of Laura Albert a.k.a. JT Leroy,” by Nancy Rommelmann (LA Weekly)“Dirty John” podcast“Who Is Anna March?” by Melissa Chadburn and Caroline Kellogg (LA Times)“Status: A brush with a compulsive liar,” Sarah Hepola on Anna March (Sarahhepola.com)Cheryl Strayed is basically an awesome person“Impostor Syndrome Prevalence in Professional Women and How to Overcome It” (Kathy Caprino, Forbes)Who is Lucrezia Borgia, and why does Nancy keep mentioning her? (Wikipedia)“Madeline Albright: There’s a special place in hell for women who don’t help each other,” by Tom McCarthy (The Guardian)Mortdecai, official trailer (2015) “Why do so many people seem to hate James Franco?” (Quora) “Goop generated disbelief when it promoted a ‘luxury diaper.’ It was a PR stunt,” by Saba Hamedy) NBC News)“Amber Heard tells graphic account of alleged sexual assault by Johnny Depp: ‘I was scared,” by Naledi Ushe (USA Today)Correction to podcast: Bottle in question was not broken, as Sarah claimed, though Heard does say she was bleeding. The management apologizes for this error.Roscoe “Fatty” Arbuckle (Wikipedia)“Johnny Depp and Amber Heard ran up a $160,000 bill with a wine merchant…” by Ashley Collman and Jacob Shamsian (The Insider)Public Enemies, official trailer (2009)John Dillinger (FBI.gov)To Live and Die in L.A., directed by William Friedkin, official trailer (1985)“Flipping the Script: The Untold Story of Bonnie and Clyde,” by Sarah Hepola (Texas Highways)Bryan Burrough, author of Days of Rage and Public Enemies, among other books“Meet the Weather Underground’s Bomb Guru,” by Bryan Burrough (Vanity Fair)“San Francisco School Board Recall!” by Nancy Rommelmann (Substack)“Everything you need to know about Julia Fox,” by Eni Subair (French Vogue)“Julia Fox speaks out in defense of Amber Heard” (reddit)“Why do people blindly support Johnny Depp? I’ll tell you why,” by Charlotte Proudman (Independent)“Depp v Heard bonus episode 3: Dr. Charlotte Proudman” (YouTube) Outro song: “Wish the Worst,” Old 97sGratuitous photo of Marion Cotillard because Sarah says she reminds her of Nancy (who would very much like the dress in the pic please)Tenth paid subscription gets cookies and poundcake sent by Nancy and go! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit smokeempodcast.substack.com/subscribe

Sarah goes deep on the Duke lacrosse rape scandal — the complicated true story, the troubled woman who filed the claims, the abdication of due process, and the false narrative promoted by key figures including Duke faculty members calling themselves the “Group of 88.” The goal was to exact justice “regardless of the truth.” A bunch of preppy white athletes needed a historical comeuppance, though it didn’t work out like that. “People who lie endorse lies,” Nancy suggests, before giving a big huzzah to a recent New Yorker piece asking why we valorize trauma and what happens when we do. In her own reporting, Nancy has seen how lies like that result in dead kids.Nancy engages in some mouth-frothing over the Fabulist of the Week, a writer on Grey’s Anatomy who faked cancer for years, while Sarah shares a story about her run-in with New York Times fabulist Jayson Blair, and we bond over childhood fibbing: Nancy said she was related to the Osmonds, and Sarah told people she had a phone date with River Phoenix. Ten minutes after we wrapped, Nancy remembered the phrase she couldn’t quite get during the episode: “Don’t fight for your limitations.” Don’t!Episode notes:“The Duke Lacrosse Scandal in Retrospect,” by Geoffrey Shullenberger (Wesley Yang Substack)Group of 88 (Wikipedia)“The Readers Strike Back,” by Gary Kamiya (Salon)Things Fell Apart, podcast by Jon RonsonFantastic Lies, ESPN 30 for 30 episode on Duke lacrosse scandal“Trayvon Martin, 10 Years Later,” Glenn Loury and John McWhorter on The Glenn Show (YouTube)What Killed Michael Brown? documentary by Shelby Steele and Eli Steele “The Case Against the Trauma Plot,” by Parul Sehgal (New Yorker)The Big Book, by Bill W.“Beyond ‘Infinite Jest’” by DT Max (New Yorker)William Langewiesche, author page at the Atlantic“How Childbirth Caused My PTSD,” by Taffy Brodesser-Akner (Salon)“Scene Stealer: The True Lies of Elisabeth Finch, Part 1,” by Evgenia Peretz (Vanity Fair)“To Tell You the Truth: As the journalism world feeds on its own frenzy, SARAH HEPOLA confronts an intimate past with exposed Times fabricator Jayson Blair, and her own history of exaggeration.” (The Morning News)“Blair’s Battle With the Bottle” (NY Post)“No Exit Plan: The Lies and Follies of Laura Albert, a.k.a., JT Leroy,” by Nancy Rommelmann (LA Weekly)“Sacrificing Rebecca: For 14 years, Laurie Recht struggled with her daughter's illness. At least, that's what she wanted people to believe,” by Nancy Rommelmann (Willamette Week)“How ‘Leonardo DiCaprio’ Scammed a Houston Widow Out of $800K by Claiming He Was Trapped in Scientology” by Tony Ortega (Daily Beast)“Who’s the Bad Art Friend?” by Robert Kolker (NYT Magazine)Sam Houston statue in Huntsville, TXOutro music: “Relator” by Pete Yorn and Scarlett JohanssonSmoke ’Em If You Got ’Em sends our best from the past week on the road: This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit smokeempodcast.substack.com/subscribe

by Sarah Hepola It was my third morning at an Austin spa so dedicated to self-care they charged $375 if you lit up a cigarette. The sky was still dark, and I was sitting at a wedding spot tucked off the highway, a mile from where I was staying. I’d stumbled upon this place the first morning of my low-key rebellion, because I needed a quiet spot to smoke, and I’d followed a sign that said “historical landmark.” I expected a bench, a sweeping view of the Hill Country; I discovered a wedding tent with empty tables and chairs, a couple plastic floral arrangements on the floor, like everyone had just been raptured.The wind was picking up, the cords of the tent creaking, and while this woodsy paradise was surely a lovely place to get hitched in daylight, it was downright spooky in the dark. A real Stephen King vibe. I took a seat at a nearby fire pit flanked by five small logs; they weren’t comfortable, but a hole in the center of one made a nice nest for a styrofoam cup I was using as an ashtray.I held the flat black rectangle of my iPhone close to my mouth. “OK here I am at my wedding retreat,” I began, in my raspy early-morning voice. “I feel like you and I have used this tent more than any other couple in the Austin area.” The voice memo was for Nancy Rommelmann, my new buddy and co-conspirator in a podcast we had named, in part because of my retro commitment to stogies, Smoke ’Em if You Got ’Em. I’d made her a voice memo on the first morning, as I wandered the surreal matrimonial landscape, and she enjoyed it, so I sent her one the next morning, which she also liked, and now we had a habit. My morning had gone from “Where can I smoke?” to “Where can I record my voice memo for Nancy?”Smoking is a bad habit, but it’s mine, and ever since I picked it up again during a rough patch in the pandemic (after more than a decade of abstinence), everyone in my life who cared about these things had made a deal, either silently or quite directly, to keep their opinions to themselves. It seemed to be a phase I needed — and since booze had been a more dangerous phase I’d once needed, and I was determined not to pick that up again after nearly 12 years of sobriety — I was mostly left to smoke in peace. “I hate that you smoke,” more than one person told me. But often they expressed a guilty affection for this once-common habit turned taboo. “I shouldn’t say this, but smoking looks cool.” This post is public so feel free to share it.But back to the voice memo. “I was driving over here,” I continued, not sure where I was going with this, “and I’m driving my mom’s car, which beeps at you whenever you do anything.” The road was winding and largely unlit, and every time I strayed from the parabolas of the yellow lines, the car beeped at me, even though no other cars were around, and the robotic fusillade made me feel as though I were being pelted with pebbles. “I don’t feel comfortable about our automated future,” I said, and proceeded to free-associate through a rambling monologue that somehow covered the disappearance of customer service, the secret lives of trees, a girlhood crush on Johnny Depp, a DoorDash order to the Cheesecake Factory, of all places, and why Nancy (though it was a low bar) was my #1 Nancy.The voice memos were not new, but making them for Nancy was. We’d only met a month ago, though we’d technically never met, having only connected through phone calls and text messages and a podcast app called Zencaster. But I’d been making voice memos for at least six years — waking up early, capturing some fleeting moment in audio form, usually when I was traveling, something I mostly did alone. California, London, a place in Tennessee — I’d find myself with all these thoughts and no place to put them, which is the writing impulse, except I was tired of writing that year, tired of staring at the glaring white screen, so I started the voice memos.“I’m sitting on the lip of the Pacific,” one began. “I’m standing near a swamp. Can you hear the noises?” They were love letters of a sort for a man to whom I’d been profoundly attached, though I didn’t send most of them, because he and I were in the slow process of untangling our lives. Also, he shared a bed with someone else, and I was never certain what kind of communication was allowed between us, what would mark him as unfaithful, and what that word even meant.This was 2015, or 2016, and the iPhone with all its fantasy-scapes was swiftly supplanting hand-to-hand contact. IRL was the acronym, in real life, but sometimes it was hard to tell which was RL: the black rectangle where I shared sumptuous conversations, songs and video clips, intimate pictures of my days and my body, or the mundane solitude of me and the cat, me at the laptop, me watching Netflix. That guy didn’t live in my neck of the woods. Even during the years we enjoyed a beautiful physical connection, we were largely bound by texts and emails and phone calls that could last for hours, me holding a hot glass brick to my face for such extended periods that I googled “can your phone give you brain cancer” more than once. (Eventually, I got a headset.)My mother tells a story about me as a baby, how we were talking to each other before I could speak, the two of us going back and forth in a nonsense babble that must have been very gratifying to a one-year-old who had no words for what she wanted. Bluh-bloop-bluh-bloop? I’d ask, and my mother would respond, in a tone meant to convey reassurance, Bluh-BLOOP-bluh-bloop. I was learning the rhythm of communication before my tongue could master nouns and verbs, and this deeply mutual exchange delighted my mother so much she nicknamed me Word Bird.My mom went back to school to become a therapist the year I enrolled in kindergarten. Good timing, at least from a distance, but she grew estranged in other ways — camping trips, newfound friends, a life that was not our family — and while this is a story of liberation for her, it was for me (at least briefly) a story of feeling left behind. I searched for her in the top drawer of her walnut dresser: a pink cameo ring, a sprig of lilies-of-the-valley, dried and pressed, a tiny vial of Diorissimo perfume I could dab on my pale inner wrist to summon her smell. I was seven when I got my own bedroom, exiled from the bunkbed I once shared with my swashbuckling 12-year-old brother. It was a converted utility space, cold and creepy with shuffling noises in the dark, and after I went to bed, I had long conversations with myself, and maybe this is storytelling, and maybe this is prayer, and maybe this is just a survival instinct: We make the company we need.Word Bird turned out to be a good nickname for me. I became a writer, an editor, a podcast addict on her way to starting her own podcast. I wrote text messages so long they required scrolling, the opposite of an emoji. By 2017, that guy had disappeared from my life, but a new one appeared the next year, a connection that was profound and complicated in its own way. Fourteen years younger than me; family stuff; a resistance on his part that even he professed not to understand. When we were together, things felt right, but when we were apart, he seemed to find new and creative reasons for the two of us to remain that way. (Long story, read the forthcoming memoir.) But I sent voice memos to him, too.“Your voice,” he responded. Sometimes that’s all he said: Your voice.“I’m sitting outside, it’s 9 o’clock at night. I like to sit out here and listen to the night sounds,” one voice memo began, though I never sent it, because by then, we were estranged too, and even though he was the one who requested the memo, the recording wasn’t good enough, or interesting enough, I was just babbling. But I kept recording memos for him that I never sent: in the desert, at the beach, but mostly on my outdoor smoking couch in Dallas. He was also sharing a bed with someone else by then, but the voice memos gave me a feeling like I was still talking to him; it was strange and wonderful to discover he could comfort me, even when he wasn’t there.Was this “real life”? What is real life? Over the years I’ve had colorful debates about our technological transformation: Does Twitter matter? Is sexting cheating? What about porn? What about long text exchanges with a man who is not your husband, full of secrets you don’t tell the others? Infidelity was blurry, but for that matter, so was connection. Can you really be close to someone so far away, or are you merely having a love affair with your own fantasy projection (and doesn’t that describe most romance)? Facebook and Instagram were holograms, press releases for the happiness most of us never quite felt (otherwise why were we spending so much time online)?“Instagram is stupid,” an editor declared one morning when we met for coffee, and I asked why, and he launched into a short critique of its performative nature: look at my toes in sand, look at my fancy hotel, look at the book I just read. “But what if that isn’t performance so much as an attempt to share some experience?” I asked, because he was married with kids, and I was single without them. I couldn’t count the number of vistas I’d looked upon in the last few years, wishing someone were at my side, and they weren’t, but I could post a picture on Instagram and, voila, suddenly people were there. The editor didn’t buy this, and maybe I didn’t either, but I understood loneliness to be a modern affliction, as well as a personal one, and the world had given us so many ways to feel connected, even as we remained alone.The voice memos, though. I began to wonder if the late-night dispatches to absentee partners, squirreled away in the cabinets of my phone like a 21st-century Emily Dickinson, was the best use of my voice. I started working on a podcast for Texas Monthly about the Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders, and voice memos were part of my mandate. I’d leave interviews and football games and unload some experience into my phone. “OK, I just left the stadium,” one began. “Well that was wild” began another. We used a few in the podcast, America’s Girls, and I liked the intimacy they created, the sound of my mind latching onto an audience, unseen at the time.So I began sending voice memos to Nancy. I never planned what I’d say; I was mostly following an intuition, tugging on a thread, and it was nice to share space with her, even if I had yet to actually share space with her, because she lived in New York City. I’d fallen into friend-love with Nancy, one that was mutual and easy (nice for a change), and even though the memos were getting a bit out-there, wandering down corridors that surprised even me, I didn’t feel queasy or embarrassed after I sent them, because the stakes were quite low. What was she gonna do? Stop talking to me because I sent a 17-minute missive on AIs and DoorDash delivery?“Sarah this is amazing,” she wrote back that morning. “This is so Joe Frank it’s insane.” I had no idea who Joe Frank was, but she sent me a video that cleared that up. A radio legend who’d worked in New York and Los Angeles, Frank was known for atmospheric audio rambles that seemed to take place on a road to nowhere.The Frank audio reminded me of Tom Waits, the moody spoken word of “9th & Hennepin,” and while audio commentary on Johnny Depp and the Cheesecake Factory doesn’t quite match this transcendent arena, I was still proud of the association she’d made, that whatever my mind had cobbled together in the wee hours had some slight adjacency to these masters. Then she told me something I probably already knew: We had to share this on our podcast. I felt embarrassed and triumphant at once; I’d only been talking to #1 Nancy, I hadn’t known I was on a stage, but then again, the story wasn’t terribly personal, far less personal than other parts of my life I’d exposed in books and essays, and I knew I could keep doing this, easy. Voice memos were my thing. Voice memos for everyone! Every! Body! Gets! A Voice Memo!And thus we arrive at my debut, embedded at the top of this page. I have no clue how many of these I’ll do (I have a couple queued up already), but I travel often, and I find myself in the quiet lonely hours quite a bit, and the voice memos need somewhere to go, so why not here? This one is open to the public, but we’ll make the following voice memos part of our paid subscriber content, because people who pay real money deserve rewards, and because Nancy bakes cookies and pies and makes delightful videos of herself, but voice memos are what I do.So I submit this first entry in a series, which is a love letter to you, or Nancy, or maybe only to myself. The sound of my voice in the dark, creating the company I need.To receive new posts and support our work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Voice Memo Notes:“Ultimate Hill Country Tour,” by Joe Nick Patoski (Texas Monthly)“The Rise of Human Agents: AI-Powered Customer Service Automation,” by Brad Birnbaum (Forbes)Sarah Hepola on Twitter: This screenshot prompts a small correction, which is that my DoorDash AI was actually named Caroline, though I stand behind my assertion that Nancy Rommelmann is #1 Nancy. Her, official trailer (YouTube)That Joan Didion line from Blue Nights: “As adults we lose memory of the gravity and terrors of childhood.”“The Social Life of Forests,” by Ferris Jabr (New York Times magazine)The Overstory, a novel by Richard PowersJohnny Depp centerfold in my seventh-grade bedroom This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit smokeempodcast.substack.com/subscribe