

PING
APNIC
PING is a podcast for people who want to look behind the scenes into the workings of the Internet. Each fortnight we will chat with people who have built and are improving the health of the Internet.
The views expressed by the featured speakers are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of APNIC.
The views expressed by the featured speakers are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of APNIC.
Episodes
Mentioned books

Nov 22, 2023 • 1h 17min
Low Earth Orbit and the TCP congestion control problem
In this episode of PING, APNIC’s Chief Scientist Geoff Huston discusses the rise of Low Earth Orbiting (LEO) Satellite based Internet, and the consequences for end-to-end congestion control in TCP and related protocols.Modern TCP has mostly been tuned for constant delay, low loss paths and performs very well at balancing bandwidth amongst the cooperating users of such a link, achieving maximum use of the resource. But a consequence of the new LEO internet is a high degree of variability in delay, loss and consequently an unstable bandwidth, which means TCP congestion control methods aren’t working quite as well in this kind of Internet.A problem is, that with the emergence of TCP bandwidth estimation models such as BBR, and the rise of new transports like QUIC (which continue to use the classic TCP model for congestion control), we have a fundamental mismatch in how competing flows try to share the link. Geoff has been exploring this space with some tests from starlink home routers, and models of satellite visibility. His Labs starlink page shows a visualisation of behaviour of the starlink system, and a movie of views of the satellites in orbit.Read more about TCP, QUIC, LEO and Geoff’s measurements on the APNIC Blog and APNIC Labs:APNIC Labs measurements of Starlink. (2023, Geoff Huston)Comparing TCP and QUIC (November 2022, Geoff Huston)Testing LEO and GEO Satellite Services in Australia (May 2022, Geoff Huston)Transport Protocols and the Network (May 2021, Geoff Huston)Congestion Control at IETF110 (March 2021, Geoff Huston)

Nov 8, 2023 • 33min
Negative Caching of DNS Resolution Failures
In this episode of PING, Verisign fellow Duane Wessels discusses a late state (version 08) Internet draft he’s working on with two colleagues from Verisign. The draft is on Negative Caching of DNS Resolution Failures and is co-authored by Duane, William Carroll, and Matt ThomasThis episode discusses the behaviour of the DNS system overall in the face of failures to answer. There are already mechanisms to deny the existence of a queried name or a specific resource type. There are also mechanisms to define how long this negative answer should be cached, just as there are cache lifetimes defined for how long to hold valid answers, things that do exist, and have been supplied.This time, it’s a cache of not being able to answer. The thing asked about? It might exist, or it might not. This cached data isn’t saying if it does exist or not, it’s a caching failure to be able to answer. As the draft states: “… a non-response due to a resolution failure in which the resolver does not receive any useful information regarding the data’s existence.”Prior DNS specifications did provide guidance on caching in the context of positive responses and negative responses but the only guidance relating to failing to answer was to avoid aggressive re-querying of the nameservers that should be able to answer.Read more about the draft, and other DNS-related work by Duane on the APNIC Blog:The draft Negative Caching of DNS Resolution Failures (2023, Version 08)Adding ZONEMD protections to the root zone (2023, APNIC Blog post)[Podcast] Adding ZONEMD protections to the root zone (2023, related podcast on PING)[Podcast] A look back at notable root zone changes (Duane discusses three significant root zone changes over the last decade)

Oct 25, 2023 • 1h 20min
What really happened — 30 years of APNIC
In this episode of PING, instead of a conversation with APNIC’s Chief Scientist Geoff Huston we’ve got a panel session from APNIC56 he facilitated, where Geoff and six guests got to discuss the 30 year history of APNIC.With Geoff on the panel were:Professor Jun Murai known as the ‘father of the Internet’ in Japan. In 1984, he developed the Japan University UNIX Network (JUNET), the first-ever inter-university network in that nation. In 1988, he founded the Widely Integrated Distributed Environment (WIDE) Project, a Japanese Internet research consortium, for which he continues to serve as a board member. Along with Geoff, Jun was one of the main progenitors of what became APNIC.Elise Gerich, a 31 year veteran of Internet networking, is recognised globally for her significant contributions to the Internet. Before retiring, Elise was President of PTI and prior to that, Vice President of IANA at ICANN. Elise served as the Associate Director National Networking at Merit Network in Michigan. While at Merit she was also a Principal Investigator for NSFNET’s T3 Backbone Project and the Routing Arbiter Project and was responsible for much of the early address management Impetus which led to the creation of the RIR system.David Conrad Previously the Chief Technology Officer of ICANN, who was involved in the creation of APNIC as its first full-time employee and founding Director-General.Akinori Maemura the JPNICChief Policy Officer, and a member of the APNIC EC for 16 years, 13 of which he was Chair of the EC.Gaurab Raj Upadhaya Head of WWW Video Delivery Strategy, Prime Video at Amazon. Gaurab has been active in the Internet community for more than a decade and like Akinori served on the APNIC EC for 12 years, 7 of these as Chair of the EC.Paul Wilson has more than thirty years’ involvement with the Internet, including 25 years’ experience as the Director General of APNIC.The Panel discussed the early years of the Internet and the processes which led to the creation of APNIC along with some significant moments in the life of the registry.

Oct 11, 2023 • 35min
Where in the world is Carmen Santiego's Data Centre?
In this episode of PING, Stephen Song discusses his work mapping the Internet. This is a long-term project, which he carries out alongside and supported by Mozilla Corporation, and the Association for Progressive Communications (APC).Stephen has long championed the case for Open Data in telecommunications decision-making and maintains a list of resources for capacity building and development of the Internet with a particular focus on Africa.The combination of some opaque business practices and the change from end delivery to mediated proxies from the content distribution network model raises questions about where the things users engage with and depend on are, so network infrastructure can be efficiently and openly planned. The latest episode of PING explores the issues inherent in understanding ‘where things are’ in the modern Internet.Explore Stephen’s resources:Many Possibilities websiteConnectivity indexes, maps, and reports (GitHub)Open Data map of Content Distribution Networks around the worldAfter FibreVillage Telco

Sep 27, 2023 • 1h 5min
How APNIC Labs measures the world using adverts
In this episode of PING, APNIC’s Chief Scientist Geoff Huston discusses the technique APNIC Labs uses to measure end user behaviour in the global internet. This is probably the only worldwide web advert based measurement system in continuous use since 2010.Originally written in Adobe Flash, the system is now coded in Javascript and HTML5, and continuously samples as many as 25 million users per day, across mobile devices and desktop PCs, Android, iPhone and Chromebook.The system was first designed to inform the community on the rate of IPv6 deployment. The APNIC Labs measurements now encompass IPv6, RTT, HTTP/3 (Quic) adoption, DNSSEC, use of public DNS resolvers, IPv6 EH support, RPKI validation amongst other measurements.Data is available at a per-economy, and per-AS (origin-AS) level, both as a web view and as JSON downloads. No end user identifying material is held, or distributed in any way. The measurement program is generously supported by Google, ICANN and APNIC.Read more about some recent research outcomes from the labs advert on the APNIC Blog:Measuring the use of DNSSEC (September 2023, Geoff Huston)Measuring NXDOMAIN responses (July 2023, Geoff Huston)A Further Update on IPv6 Extension Headers (June 2023, Geoff Huston)A second look at QUIC use (September 2022, Geoff Huston)

Sep 13, 2023 • 30min
DASH sees a large route leak in Singapore
In june of this year, the Dashboard for AS Health or DASH, a service operated by APNIC saw a leak of approximately 260,000 BGP routes from a vantage point in Singapore, and sent alerts to around 90 subscribers to our routing mis-alignment notification service which is part of DASH.BGP is the state of announcements made and heard worldwide, calculated by every BGP speaker for themselves and although its globally connected and represents “the same” network, not everyone sees all things, as a result of filtering and configuration differences around the globe. BGP also should align with two external information systems, the older Internet Routing Registry (IRR) system which uses a notation called RPSL to represent routing policy data, including the “route” object, and Resource Public Key Infrastructure or RPKI, which represents the origin-AS (in BGP, who originates a given prefix) in a cryptographically signed objected called a ROA. The BGP prefix and origin (the route) should align with whats in an IRR route object and an RPKI ROA, but sometimes these disagree. Thats what DASH is designed to do: tell you when these three information sources fall out of alignment.I discussed this incident, and the APNIC Information Product family (DASH, a collaboration with RIPE NCC called NetOX, and the delegation statistics portal called REX) with Rafael Cintra, the product manager of these systems, and with Dave Phelan who works in the APNIC Academy and has a background in Network Routing Operations.You can find the APNIC Information products here: (note that the DASH service needs a MyAPNIC login to be used)https://dash.apnic.net the DASH portal login page (MyAPNIC resource login needed)https://netox.apnic.net NetOX the Network Observatory web servicehttps://rex.apnic.net Resource Explorer: delegation statistics for the worldAnd you can read about the Information Products family in these blog articles:New Alert Options for DASHRouting Status added to DASHSuspicious Traffic Alerts added to DASHUsing DASH to rank economies by suspicious trafficHow DASH helps monitor Network HealthWorldwide REXIntroducing REX a new approach for the internet directoryHands-On with APNIC’s NetOX

Aug 30, 2023 • 57min
The Chips are down: Moore's Law coming to an end.
In this episode of PING, APNIC’s Chief Scientist Geoff Huston discusses the coming future of VLSI with Moores law coming to an end. This was motivated by a key presentation made at the most recent ANRW session at IETF117, San Francisco.For over 5 decades we have been able to rely on an annual, latterly bi-annual doubling of speed called Moore's Law, and halving of size of the technology inside a microchip: Very Large Scale Integration (VLSI), the basic building block of the modern age being the transistor.From it's beginnings off the back of the diode, replacing valves but still discrete components, to the modern reality of trillions of logic "gates" on a single chip, everything we have built in recent times which includes a computer, has been built under the model "it can only get cheaper next time round" -But for various reasons explored in this episode, that isn't true any more, and won't be true into the future.We're going to have to get used to the idea it isn't always faster, smaller, cheaper, and this will have an impact on how we design Networks, including details inside the protocol stack which go to processing complexity forwarding those packets along the path.A few times, Both Geoff and myself get our prefixes mixed up and may say millimeters for nanometers or even worse on air. We also confused the order of letters in the company Acronym TSMC -The Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company.Read more about the end of Moore's law on APNIC Blog and the IETF:Chipping Away at Moore's Law (August 2023, Geoff Huston)It’s the End of DRAM As We Know It (July 2023, Philip Levis, IETF117 ANRW session)

Aug 16, 2023 • 45min
Here comes the sun(spots) — what are the real risks in solar storms?
In this episode of PING Jaap Akkerhuis (NLNet Labs), Ulrich Spiedel (University of Auckland) and Russ White (Juniper) discuss the issues behind Sunspots, ionisation in the atmosphere and its effects on satellite communications and terrestrial infrastructure based on wires in the air: Power grids and data services.In two blogs Good day sunshine and Solar Storms and the Internet we've highlighted the potential risks from increases in solar activity such as solar flares and the associated Coronal Mass Ejection or CME.Spectacular as the effects on earths atmosphere can be, The risk of these events is quite high, if things line up badly for us: It's possible for there to be compounding effects on Satellite systems orbit, their electrical components, their lifetime in orbit (due to repositioning costs burning fuel to cope with the event) as well as effects on land as the suspended wires in power grids and data communications act as antenna, and produce voltage "spikes" to attached equipment at the end, as well as along the path.However, as explored in this episode of PING the situation is often overblown by the news cycle, and it's more a story about being prepared with resilience in systems exposed to risk and understanding those risks.Read more about solar storms and their impact on infrastructure, satellite communications and space weather:Good day, sunshine (George Michaelson, May 2023)Solar storms and the Internet (Ulrich Spiedel, July 2021)APNIC Blog articles about Satellite CommunicationsThe Space Weather website (as mentioned by Jaap in the podcast)

Aug 2, 2023 • 51min
Content vs Carriage
In this episode of PING, APNIC’s Chief Scientist Geoff Huston discusses the eternal tension between content and carriage.At the RIPE 86 meeting held in Rotterdam in May of this year, Rudolf van der Berg presented a talk titled "The EU Gigabit Connectivity Package and How It Will Hurt the Internet"Geoff has looked at the tensions between content and carriage, Transit and CDNs, the economics of networks for decades, and a conversation about the problems has gone on for some time now, some of which repeats here, but with a new twist: some inside information from Vodafone about their underlying cost and price issues which perhaps undermine the basis of the complaint from the European operator community to the EU seeking regulation of the "cost" side of carrying the content domestic consumers seek.Read more about the economics of the Internet on the APNIC Blog:RIPE 86 bites - Gigabits for EU (June 2023, Geoff Huston on this RIPE86 presentation)On Internet Centrality and Fragmentation (July 2023, Geoff Huston)The Internet as a Public Utility (May 2023, Geoff Huston)An Economic Perspective on Internet Centrality (March 2023, Geoff Huston)Sender Pays (September 2022, Geoff Huston)Content Vs Carriage: Who Pays? (June 2022, Geoff Huston)Watch Rudolph Van Der Berg's talk at RIPE86, or read his slides (pdf)

Jul 19, 2023 • 36min
Adding ZONEMD protections to the root zone
In this episode of PING, Verisign fellow Duane Wessels presents the ZONEMD resource record, defined in RFC8976.The “MD” in ZONEMD stands for “message digest” and this resource record (RR) is a checksum over the state of a zone, including all its records and the zone serial record (“start of authority” or SOA) which includes a serial number.This means that by fetching an entire zone, either in the DNS or “out of band” from an FTP or Web server or however you receive it, if it has the ZONEMD record you have a way to check that the entire zone, as it should be for that serial, is exactly what you have in-hand.ZONEMD is going to permit people who copy zones to serve them (locally, or more widely) now have a basis to trust the state of the zone before publishing it.Duane talks about the long lifetime of this idea with roots back into the 1990s, and the road to RFC8976 taken by the co-authors. A ZONEMD record with an un-testable signature will be placed in the root zone of the DNS in September of this year, and will become testable in December to allow time for the community to understand it’s behaviour.This podcast is accompanied by a repost of a Verisign blog Duane wrote recently which has just been republished here on the APNIC Blog: Adding ZONEMD protections to the root zoneRead more about DNS, ZONEMD, and other blogs and podcasts by Duane on the APNIC Blog and elsewhere online:The Root of the DNS revisited(2023, Geoff Huston)Notes from DNS OARC 38 (2022 APNIC Blog post by Geoff Huston)Notes from DNS OARC 35 (2021 APNIC Blog post by Geoff Huston)RFC8976 (2021 RFC D. Wessels, P. Barber – Verisign; M. Weinberg – Amazon; W. Kumari – Google; & W. Hardaker – USC/ISI)[Podcast] A look back at notable root zone changes (Duane Wessels on PING discusses 3 significant root zone changes over the last decade)