

PING
APNIC
PING is a podcast for people who want to look behind the scenes into the workings of the Internet. Each fortnight we will chat with people who have built and are improving the health of the Internet.
The views expressed by the featured speakers are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of APNIC.
The views expressed by the featured speakers are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of APNIC.
Episodes
Mentioned books

May 1, 2024 • 1h 2min
Measuring Starlink TCP performance
In this episode of PING, APNIC’s Chief Scientist Geoff Huston discusses Starlink again, and the ability of modern TCP flow control algorithms to cope with the highly variant loss and delay seen over this satellite network. Geoff has been doing more measurements using starlink terminals in Australia and the USA, at different times of day exploring the system behaviour.Starlink has broken new ground in Low Earth Orbit internet services. Unlike Geosynchronous satellite services which have a long delay but constant visibility of the satellite in stationary orbit above, Starlink requires the consumer to continuously re-select a new satellite as they move overhead in orbit. In fact, a new satellite has to be picked every 15 seconds. This means there's a high degree of variability in the behaviour of the link, both between signal quality to each satellite, and in the brief interval of loss ocurring at each satellite re-selection window. Its a miracle TCP can survive, and in fact in the case of the newer BBR protocol thrive, and achieve remarkably high throughput, if the circumstances permit. This is because of the change from a slow start, fast backoff model used in Cubic and Reno to a much more aggressive link bandwidth estimation model, which continuously probes to see if there is more room to play in.Read more about Satellites, TCP and flow control algorithms on the APNIC Blog and on the IETF website.An explainer on Coherent Optical Transcievers (Geoff Huston, APNIC Blog 2024)Low Earth Orbit and the Congestion Control Problem (Geoff Huston, APNIC Blog 2023)APNIC Labs measurements of Starlink (APNIC Labs)Comparing TCP and QUIC (Geoff Huston APNIC Blog 2022)Testing LEO and GEO Satellite Services in Australia Transport Protocols and the Network Congestion Control at IETF 110

Apr 17, 2024 • 27min
Using Fibre Optics to measure vehicle traffic
This time on PING, Dr Mona Jaber from Queen Mary University of London (QMUL), discusses her work exploring IoT, Digital Twins and Social Science led research in the field of networking and telecommunications.Dr Jaber is a senior lecturer in QMUL and is the founder and director of the Digital Twins for Sustainable Development Goals (DT4SDG) at QMUL. She was one of the invited Keynote speakers at the recent APRICOT/APNIC57 meeting held in Bangkok, and the podcast explores the three major themes explored in her keynote presentation.The role of deployed fibre optic communication systems in measurement for sustainable green goalsDigital Twin Simulation platforms for exploring the problem spaceSocial Sciences led research, an inter-disciplinary approach to formulating and exploring problems which has been applied to Sustainable Development-related research through technical innovation in IoT, AI, and Digital Twins.The Fibre Optic measurement method is Distributed Acoustic Sensor or DAS:"DAS reuses underground fibre optic cables as distributed strain sensing where the strain is caused by moving objects above ground. DAS is not affected by weather or light and the fibre optic cables are often readily available, offering a continuous source for sensing along the length of the cable. Unlike video cameras, DAS systems also offer a GDPR-compliant source of data."The DASMATE Project at theengineer.co.ukThis Episode of PING was recorded live in the venue and is a bit noisy compared to the usual recordings, but it's well worth putting up with the background chatter!Read more about Dr Jaber's presentation, the DAS system, Digital Twins and Fibre Optic communications:Intelligent IoT for sustainable development Goals: Keynote talk at APRICOT/APNIC57The recording of Dr Jaber's Keynote talkThe DASMATE project: Assisting the uptake of Active Travel Tower Hamlets, LondonThe DT4SDG group page at QMULCoherent Optical Tranceivers (Geoff Huston, April 2024)

Apr 3, 2024 • 1h 5min
Digital sovereignty and standards
In this episode of PING, APNIC’s Chief Scientist Geoff Huston discusses the European Union's consideration of taking a role in the IETF, as itself. Network engineers, policy makers and scientists from all around the world have participated in IETF but this is the first time an entity like the EU has considered participation as itself in the process of standards development. What's lead to this outcome? What is driving the concern that the EU as a law setting and treaty body, an inter-governmental trade bloc needs to participate in the IETF process? Is this a mis-understanding of the nature of Internet Standards development or does it reflect a concern that standards are diverging from society's needs? Geoff wrote this up in a recent opinion piece on the APNIC Blog and the podcast is a conversation around the topic.Read more about digital sovereignty on the APNIC Blog and on the IETF website.Digital sovereignty and standards (Geoff Huston, APNIC Blog)As the Balance of Security Controls shifts where does responsibility rest? (Kathleen Moriarty, Guest Author on the APNIC Blog)Reflections on Ten Years Past the Snowden Revelations (IETF RFC9446)Pervasive Monitoring is an Attack (IETF RFC7528)

Mar 20, 2024 • 41min
DNS OARC's many faces
This time on PING we have Phil Regnauld from DNS Operations Analysis & Resource Center (DNS-OARC) talking about the three distinct faces OARC presents to the community.Phil came to the OARC presidents role, replacing Keith Mitchell who was the founding president since 2008 through to this year. Phil previously has worked with the Network Startup Resource Centre (NSRC) and with AFNOG, and the Francophone Internet community at large.DNS OARC has at least 3 distinct faces. It is a community of DNS operators and researchers, who maintain an active ongoing dialogue face to face in workshops and online in the OARC Mattermost community hub. Secondly it is a home, repository and ongoing development environment for DNS related tools such as DNSVIZ (written by Casey Deccio) hosting the AS112 project, and development of the DSC systems amongst many other tools.Thirdly it is the organiser and host of the Day In The Life or DITL activity, the periodic collection of 48-72 hours of DNS traffic from the DNS root operators, and other significant sources of DNS traffic. Stretching back over 10 years DITL is a huge resource for DNS research, providing insights in the use of DNS and its behaviour on-the-wire.Read more about DNS OARC and its activities:The Domain Name Service Operations, Analysis and Research CenterThe DSC data collection and analysis systemDNS OARC software tools catalogThe Day In The Life (DITL) collection

Mar 6, 2024 • 1h 2min
DELEG - a proposed new way to manage DNS Delegation in-band
In this episode of PING, APNICs Chief Scientist Geoff Huston discusses a new proposed DNS resource record called DELEG. The record is being designed to aid in managing where a DNS zone is delegated.Delegation is the primary mechanism used in the DNS to separate responsibility between child and parent for a given domain name. The DELEG RR is designed to address several problems, including a goal of moving to new transports for the name resolution service the DNS provides to all other Internet protocols.Additionally, Geoff believes it can help with cost and management issues inherent in out-of-band external domain name management through the registry/registrar process, bound in the whois system and in a protocol called Extensible Provisioning Protocol or EPP.There are big costs here and they include some problems dealing with intermediaries who manage your DNS on your behalf.Unlike whois, EPP, and registrar functions, DELEG would be an in-band mechanism between the parent zone, any associated registry, and the delegated child zone. It’s a classic disintermediation story about improved efficiency and enables the domain name holder to nominate intermediaries for their services, via an aliasing mechanism that has until now eluded the DNS.Read more about DELEG on the APNIC Blog and on the IETF website.DNS and the proposed DELEG record (APNIC Blog)‘Extensible Delegation for DNS‘ (IETF draft)Extensible Provisioning Protocol (EPP) (IETF RFC)

Feb 21, 2024 • 36min
Taking the PULSE of the Internet
This time on PING we have Amreesh Phokeer from the Internet Society (ISOC) talking about a system they operate called Pulse, available at https://pulse.internetsociety.org/. Pulse’s purpose is to assess the “resiliency” of the Internet in a given locality.Similar systems we have discussed before on Ping include APNIC’s DASH service, aimed at resource holding APNIC members, and the MANRS project. Both of these take underlying statistics like resource distribution data, or measurements of RPKI uptake or BGP behaviours and present them to the community, and in the case of MANRS there’s a formalised “score” which shows your ranking against current best practices.The Pulse system measures resilience in four pillars: Infrastructure, Quality, Security and Market Readiness. Some of these are “hard” measures analogous to MANRS and DASH, but Pulse in addition to these kinds of measurements includes “soft” indicators like the economic impacts of design decisions in an economy of interest, the extent of competition, and less formally defined attributes like the amount of resiliency behind BGP transit. This allows the ISOC Pulse system to consider governance-related aspects of the development of Internet, and has a simple scoring model which allows a single health metric analogous to the use of pulse and blood pressure by a physician to assess your condition, but this time applied to the Internet.Read more about Pulse:The https://pulse.internetsociety.org/ websiteThe Pulse BlogDon’t put all your internet infrastructure in one basket (Robbie Mitchell in the APNIC Blog)Internet Resilience on PulseInternet Resilience Index Methodology

Feb 7, 2024 • 54min
DNS is the new BGP
In this episode of PING, APNIC’s Chief Scientist Geoff Huston discusses the role of DNS in directing where your applications connect to, and where content comes from. Although this more “steering” traffic than it “routing” in the strict sense of IP packet forwarding, (that’s still the function of the border gateway protocol or BGP) It does in fact represent a kind of routing decision, to select a content source or server logistically “best” or “closest” to you. So in the spirit of “Orange is the new Black” -DNS is the new BGP.As this change in delivery of content has emerged, the effective control on this kind of routing decision has also become more concentrated, into the hands of the small number of at-scale Content Distribution Networks (CDN) and associated DNS providers worldwide. This is far less than the 80,000 or so BGP speakers with their own AS and represents another trend to be thought about. How we optimise content delivery isn’t decided in common amongst us, its managed by simpler contractual relationships between content owner and intermediaries.The upside of course remains the improvement in efficiency of fetch for each client, the reduction in delay and loss. But the evolution of the Internet over time and the implications for governance in “steering” decisions is going to be of increasing concern.Read more about Geoff’s views of Concentration in the Internet, Governance, and Economics on the APNIC Blog and at APNIC Labs:DNS is the new BGPInternet Governance in 2023On Internet Centrality and FragmentationThe Internet as a Public UtilityAn Economic Perspective on Internet CentralityLooking at Centrality in the DNS

Jan 24, 2024 • 38min
Global Cyber Alliance Measurements
In this episode of PING, Leslie Daigle from the Global Cyber Alliance (GCA) discusses their honeynet project, measuring bad traffic internet-wide. This was originally focussed on IoT devices with the AIDE project but is clearly more generally informative. Leslie also discusses the quad-nine DNS service, GCA’s domain trust work and the MANRS project. Launched in 2014 with support from ISOC, MANRS now has a continuing relationship with GCA and may represent a model for the routing community regarding the ‘bad traffic’ problem which the AIDE project explores.Leslie has a long history of work in the public interest, as Chief Internet Technology Officer of the Internet Society, and with the IETF. She is currently the chair of the MOPS working group, has co-authored 22 RFCs and was chair of the IAB for five years.Read more about GCA, AIDE, domain trust and honeynets:The Global Cyber Alliance (GCA)The AIDE programme at GCADomain Trust at GCAHoneynet tagged blog entries at APNIC

Jan 10, 2024 • 56min
IPv6 Fragmentation and the DNS
In this episode of PING, APNIC’s Chief Scientist Geoff Huston discusses the change in IP packet fragmentation behaviour adopted by IPv6, and the implications of a change in IETF “Normative Language” regarding use of IPv6 in the DNS.IPv4 arguably succeeds over so many variant underlying links and networks because it’s highly adaptable to fragmentation in the path. IPv6 has a proscriptive requirement that only the end hosts fragment, which limits how intermediate systems can handle IPv6 data in flight. In the DNS, increasing complexity from things like DNSSEC mean the the DNS packet sizes are getting larger and larger, which risks invoking the IPv6 fragmentation behaviour in UDP. This has consequences for the reliability and timeliness of the DNS service.For this reason, a revision of the IETF normative language (the use of capitalised MUST MAY SHOULD and MUST NOT) directing how IPv6 integrates into the DNS service in deployment has risks. Geoff argues for a “first, do no harm” approach to this kind of IETF document.Read more about IPv6, Fragmentation, the DNS and Geoff’s measurements on the APNIC Blog and APNIC Labs:IPv6, the DNS and Happy EyeballsHow we measure DNSSEC ValidationDNS is the new BGP To DNSSEC or Not

Dec 6, 2023 • 30min
The ICANN DNS stats collector system
In this episode of PING, Sara Dickinson from Sinodun Internet Technologies and Terry Manderson, VP, Information Security and Network Engineering at ICANN discuss the ICANN DNS stats collector system which ICANN commissioned, and Sinodun wrote for them.This system consists of two parts, a DNS stats compactor framework which captures data in the C-DNS format, a specified set of data in CBOR format, and the DNS stats visualiser which is uses Grafana. The C-DNS format is not a complete packet capture but allows the recreation of all the DNS context of the query and response. It was standardised in 2019, in an RFC authored by Sara, her partner John, Jim Hague, John Bond and Terry.Unlike DSC, which is a 5 minute sample aggregation system, this system is able to preserve a significantly larger amount of the seen DNS query information and can even be used to re-create an on-the-wire view of the DNS (albiet not 1 to 1 identical to the original IP packetflows)Read more about the systems, and IMRS online:RFC8618 Compacted-DNS (C-DNS): A Format for DNS Packet CaptureThe ICANN github repository for DNS StatsICANN Managed Root Server (IMRS)