The Sacred Speaks

Interview begins @ 6:02 In this episode of The Sacred Speak podcast, we explore the potential of the Christian church as a sanctuary for psychedelic healing. Our guests, Hunt and Jessica, seek to reconnect the worlds of psychedelics and organized religion, addressing the misinformation that has driven them apart for the past 50 years. They assert that the church must prioritize healing and work to rectify the damage caused by this disconnect. Throughout our discussion, we delve into the concept of the church as a nurturing environment for fostering profound experiences, self-love, and personal growth through the exploration of one's relationship with their body and the importance of firsthand experiences. We also lay the groundwork for defining a "psychedelic Christian" and how this integration could lead to a more comprehensive understanding of how a divine encounter can be paired with the Christian faith. Recurring themes in this conversation include social justice within the psychedelic movement, the democratization of psychedelics, the significance of mystical experiences, embracing one's true self within small community groups, the power of honesty and truth in community settings, the church's role in healing, and the experiences of people of color within psychedelic communities. Join us as we examine this thought-provoking and transformative topic. Bio: Hunt Priest is a priest in The Episcopal Church and the founding Executive Director of Ligare: A Christian Psychedelic Society, a non-profit network of Christian leaders educating themselves and those they lead about the intersection of open-hearted Christianity and the Psychedelic renaissance. A participant in a psilocybin study in early 2016, he had two life-changing mystical experiences under the care of a research team. His encounters with psilocybin opened him to the healing and consciousness-raising power of psychedelic medicines and changed the landscape of his work. Hunt believes the healing power of psychedelics should be in the toolkits of all who are healers of bodies, minds, and souls and can’t wait to be part of providing access for legal, safe, and guided experiences in a Christian setting. In April 2021 Hunt took an extended break from full-time parish ministry to expand his priesthood out into the emerging psychedelic landscape. Jessica Felix Romero has over 16 years of experience in social justice advocacy, organizing, and communications. With a doctorate in conflict analysis and resolution, she integrates holistic system analysis and transformative design to help nonprofits advance social change. She is Vice President & Chief Strategy and Impact Officer at Sojourners, a faith-inspired nonprofit that works with Christians to put their faith into action in the passionate pursuit of social justice, peace, and environmental stewardship. Jessica loves all things about food and spirituality — her pioneering doctoral research in El Salvador documents the transformational possibilities of conflict-resolution oriented food systems that feed people and nurture peace. She is a student of somatic writing and practitioner of embodied leadership. Her current work explores the intersections of spirituality, ancestral wisdom, psychedelics, and Christianity. www.ligare.org www.sojo.net Website for The Sacred Speaks: http://www.thesacredspeaks.com WATCH: YouTube for The Sacred Speaks https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOAuksnpfht1udHWUVEO7Rg Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thesacredspeaks/ @thesacredspeaks Twitter: https://twitter.com/thesacredspeaks Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thesacredspeaks/ Brought to you by: https://www.thecenterforhas.com Theme music provided by: http://www.modernnationsmusic.com

Interview begins @ 6:17 In this episode of The Sacred Speaks, we delve into the multifaceted world of magic, exploring its neurological, spiritual, and cultural aspects. Dr. Bever, provides insights and expertise throughout our discussion. We begin with the question, "what is magic?" and Dr. Bever offers a definition of magic and shamanism, setting the stage for the rest of the conversation. As we discuss the interplay between magic and popular beliefs, including the rational and irrational, we examine how these shape our understanding of the world. We explore the impact of Descartes's ideas on dreams and dualism, and how they have influenced our worldviews and ways of thinking. Touching on the concept of suppressed knowledge in the context of magic, we delve into how it has been perceived historically. We further investigate the role of alternate states of consciousness in witchcraft trials and the blurred lines between religion and magic. Analyzing the theory of mind from a rationalistic perspective, we discuss how it relates to the controllable aspects of religion. We then examine the value and potential pitfalls associated with the concept of "experience" in religious contexts. Exploring the relationship between power dynamics and the practice of magic in society, we consider the impact of population size on the development and evolution of religious beliefs and practices. We discuss the role of prophets in contemporary religious movements and the challenges they face in today's society. Looking at the resurgence of esotericism and magic in modern times, we inquire into their relevance and significance. Finally, we venture into the world of the paranormal, discussing topics such as poltergeists and the role of narratives in shaping our understanding of truth. Bio: Edward Bever earned a Ph.D. in History from Princeton University and is Professor of History and Director of the School of Professional Studies at SUNY Old Westbury. He specializes in the history of magic and witchcraft; is the author of The Realities of Witchcraft and Popular Magic in Early Modern Europe: Culture, Cognition, and Everyday Life (2008) and co-editor of Magic in the Modern World: Strategies of Repression and Legitimization (2017); contributed chapters to the Oxford Handbook of Witchcraft in Early Modern Europe and Colonial America, The Routledge History of Witchcraft, and Emotions in the History of Witchcraft; and published articles on the topics in The Journal of Interdisciplinary History, the Journal of Social History, and Magic, Ritual, and Witchcraft. Website for The Sacred Speaks: http://www.thesacredspeaks.com WATCH: YouTube for The Sacred Speaks https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOAuksnpfht1udHWUVEO7Rg Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thesacredspeaks/ @thesacredspeaks Twitter: https://twitter.com/thesacredspeaks Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thesacredspeaks/ Brought to you by: https://www.thecenterforhas.com Theme music provided by: http://www.modernnationsmusic.com

Interview begins @ 5:00 Scholars who investigate paranormal, religious, philosophical, metaphysical, and other similar topics fall under the umbrella of the humanities. However, many professors are hesitant to delve into topics that cannot be explained through empirical data or scientific methods. Cultural historian and scholar of religion at Rice University, Jeff Kripal, has dedicated much of his work to exploring these questions. In his latest book, "The Superhumanities," Kripal argues that the humanities must expand beyond their traditional scope and engage with supernatural and paranormal phenomena that challenge our understanding of what it means to be human. Kripal suggests that the people we revere in the humanities were "weird" and had altered states of consciousness, embodiment, precognitive dreams, out-of-body experiences, and mystical experiences of unity with the cosmos. He argues that these alternate states of consciousness and embodiments were, in fact, the origins of their thinking. To fully understand and appreciate the humanities, Kripal believes we must embrace the strange and eerie in our academic and cultural discussions. In this interview, Kripal discussed his new book and the significance of embracing unconventional phenomena in the humanities. The conversation covers a range of topics, including the fractals of social systems, psychotherapy as a means of adapting to a sick social system, listening to the symbolic communication from experiences of the paranormal, metaphysics and the U.F.O., the beauty of not knowing, Christianity and the paranormal, Christianity as a modernized sociological tribal container, black critical theory, feminist theory, psychoanalytic theory, queer theory, post-colonial theory, & ecocriticism, and gender and the modern world. Overall, Kripal's work emphasizes the need for scholars in the humanities to expand their focus beyond empirical data and scientific methods to explore the strange and mysterious phenomena of life. By doing so, we can gain a deeper understanding of what it means to be human and how we can navigate the complexities of the world around us. Bio: Jeffrey J. Kripal is the Associate Dean of the School of Humanities and holds the J. Newton Rayzor Chair in Philosophy and Religious Thought at Rice University, where he chaired the Department of Religion for eight years and helped create the GEM Program, a doctoral concentration in the study of Gnosticism, Esotericism, and Mysticism that is the largest program of its kind in the world. He presently helps direct the Center for Theory and Research at the Esalen Institute in Big Sur, California, where he served as Chair of Board from 2015 to 2020. Jeff is the author or co-author of twelve books, eight of which are with The University of Chicago Press. He has also served as the Editor in Chief of the Macmillan Handbook Series on Religion (ten volumes, 2015-2016). He specializes in the study of extreme religious states and the re-visioning of a New Comparativism, particularly as both involve putting “the impossible” back on the academic table again. He is presently working on a three-volume study of paranormal currents in the history of religions and the sciences for The University of Chicago Press, collectively entitled The Super Story. https://jeffreyjkripal.com Website for The Sacred Speaks: http://www.thesacredspeaks.com WATCH: YouTube for The Sacred Speaks https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOAuksnpfht1udHWUVEO7Rg Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thesacredspeaks/ @thesacredspeaks Twitter: https://twitter.com/thesacredspeaks Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thesacredspeaks/ Brought to you by: https://www.thecenterforhas.com Theme music provided by: http://www.modernnationsmusic.com

Richard Rohr, spiritual author and teacher, discusses topics such as Christian mysticism, blending action and contemplation, integrating matter and spirit, the concept of the Universal Christ, meeting the Pope in Rome, disillusionment and deconstruction of the false self, and the potential benefits of psychedelics for spiritual experiences and personal healing.

Dr. Murray Stein, an expert on Carl Jung's works and the Red Book, discusses the impact of Liber Novus on depth psychology and religion. Topics include Jung's suffering through active imagination, the significance of Liber Novus in the Jungian field, and the practice of active imagination for self-knowledge. The discussion also touches on psychedelics, the unconscious, and the ethical obligations following encounters with the unconscious.

Interview begins @ 8:08 Today Dr. Miles Neale and Dr. John explore “ego death”, and a few issues with this language, we continue discussing the nature of the ego, the Buddhist frame for soul, returning from the mountaintop or a break-through experience, nondualism, Miles reveals several of his transcendent experiences and also a personal experience with death, “cheap” nondualism, addiction to the nondual, spiritual bypassing, grief, experiencing death, trauma and the unconscious, the healing relationship between teacher and student, holding suffering, the ego’s avoidance, guru devotion, pilgrimage, psychedelic experience, sacred journeys, and we finish with Tibetan Buddhism and the infrastructure of the return from the “mountaintop”. Bio: Dr. Miles Neale, PsyD, is a Buddhist psychotherapist in private practice, founder of the Contemplative Studies Program, international speaker, and host of the Wisdom Keeper Podcast. He has taught psychology and meditation at prestigious university hospitals including Harvard, Columbia, and Cornell. Author of Gradual Awakening (Sounds True, 2018) and co-editor of Advances in Contemplative Psychotherapy (Routledge, 2017), Miles is currently writing his next book Return with Elixir: Journey of Conscious Death and Rebirth (Inner Traditions, 2023). With more than twenty years integrating the mind science of Tibetan Buddhism with psychology, trauma research, neuroscience, and mythology, Miles is a forerunner in the emerging field of contemplative psychotherapy, and leads pilgrimages around the Buddhist world. https://www.milesneale.com John’s Esalen Workshop: https://www.esalen.org/workshops/portals-and-pathways-ecstatic-experience-music-and-the-red-book-022723 Website for The Sacred Speaks: http://www.thesacredspeaks.com WATCH: YouTube for The Sacred Speaks https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOAuksnpfht1udHWUVEO7Rg Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thesacredspeaks/ @thesacredspeaks Twitter: https://twitter.com/thesacredspeaks Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thesacredspeaks/ Brought to you by: https://www.thecenterforhas.com Theme music provided by: http://www.modernnationsmusic.com

Conversation starts @ 4:36 In this episode I meet with Dr. Stephen Gray to discuss his latest book, How Psychedelics Can Help Save The World: Visionary and Indigenous Voices Speak Out. We begin by noting the cultural and individual issues that that psychedelic medicine is positioned to treat, we continue with the ways that we have lost our mythic and symbolic root and religious systems, overpopulation, planetary sickness, the universality of change and transformation, the Dunbar number and social systems, the nature of these reality revealing medicines, explore indigenous traditions as revelatory to the hegemony, healing cultural wounds, cultural dynamics exposed by psychedelic practice, psychedelic capitalism, medical and pharma intervention with psychedelics, the lost Mystery Schools, trusting what is, surrender as an attitude nourished by working with entheogens, and more. Bio: Stephen has been involved in spiritual work and psychedelics for 50 years. This includes more than 20 years as a student and occasional teacher of Tibetan Buddhism; a dozen years actively involved with Native American Church peyote prayer ceremonies; “guest” membership in the ayahuasca-using Santo Daime Church, and experience with a number of other entheogens. He is also the author of Returning to Sacred World: A Spiritual Toolkit for the Emerging Reality, and editor as well as one of 18 contributors to the popular Cannabis and Spirituality: An Explorer’s Guide to an Ancient Plant Spirit Ally. Stephen teaches people about the spiritual benefits of intentional cannabis use and conduct cannabis meditation and sound-journeying ceremonies. Perhaps most relevant to the mission of StephenGray Vision, for the past 10 years, he’s co-organized the influential Spirit Plant Medicine Conference in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada. That work has connected him to dozens of remarkable spokespeople on behalf of the skillful understanding and use of psychedelic/entheogenic sacramental medicines. About the book: Exploring the way forward for humanity in the face of unprecedented crisis, more than 25 contributors show how the wisdom of Indigenous peoples and the power of psychedelics can help us enact the radical shift in consciousness necessary to navigate the collapse of the old world order and the birth of a new consciousness centered on awakened-heart interconnectedness. We hear from psychedelic visionaries Christopher Bache, Zoe Helene, Wade Davis, Chris Kilham, Laurel Sugden, and others on the promise of psychedelic medicines for spiritual and healing work. We learn about Indigenous stories to support our transformation from Native American leader Solana Booth, ancestral memory from Grandmother Maria Alice Campos Freire, cannabis’s role in world building from Minelli Eustàcio-Costa, the ritual roots of talking plants from Michael Stuart Ani, and alchemy across the arc of time from shaman Ya’Acov Darling Khan. We also hear from cannabis grower The Dank Duchess; Bruce Damer, a “mystic scientist” working on the question of life’s origins and its future in space; Tyson Yunkaporta, Australian Aboriginal artist and scholar; visionary artist Martina Hoffmann; professor of religious studies G. William Barnard; activist Duane Elgin; Kohenet Rachel Kann, ordained Jewish priestess and ceremonialist; and several other wise leaders for our time. https://www.stephengrayvision.com John’s Esalen Workshop: https://www.esalen.org/workshops/portals-and-pathways-ecstatic-experience-music-and-the-red-book-022723 Website for The Sacred Speaks: http://www.thesacredspeaks.com WATCH: YouTube for The Sacred Speaks https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOAuksnpfht1udHWUVEO7Rg Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thesacredspeaks/ @thesacredspeaks Twitter: https://twitter.com/thesacredspeaks Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thesacredspeaks/ Brought to you by: https://www.thecenterforhas.com Theme music provided by: http://www.modernnationsmusic.com

Conversation starts @ 5:47 Hermes Trismegistus was believed to be one of the wise men of his time, and a study of his texts reveals, not a general philosophy, but a spiritual path for initiates who seek to achieve gnosis by direct acquaintance of the true nature of reality as we experience it. Dr. Wouter Hanegraaff begins this analysis by guiding us into the four-core dimension of his book, Hermeticism, spirituality, historical imagination, and altered states of knowledge. All of this knowledge circulated through small groups of people beginning in the first century A.D. Wouter explains how he landed a position as The University of Amsterdam chair of Hermeticism, and then began to “map” the field of esoterism, the two poles of his academic interests are Hermeticism and esotericism. We discuss the nature of esotericism, rejected forms of knowledge, monotheism and exclusion, the shadow of the collective, Isaac Newton’s heresy, Western exclusion, nonduality, the experiential nature of spiritual practice, Diotima - the female visionary who taught Socrates, drugs in the ancient world, The East and the irrational, academic ideological orientation to Greek as rational, misunderstanding and misinterpretation of antiquity, gender, the spiritual nature of rebirth, life and death, immortality and “The Flip,” shoutout to Miles Neale and Jeff Kripal, music and the cosmos, tones and chanting, initiation, apprenticeship, magic, therapy, and more. Bio: Wouter J. Hanegraaff is Professor of History of Hermetic Philosophy and Related Currents at the University of Amsterdam, the Netherlands, a member of the Royal Dutch Academy of Arts and Sciences, as well as past President and now honorary member of the European Society for the Study of Western Esotericism. Alongside numerous articles, he is the author of New Age Religion and Western Culture: Esotericism in the Mirror of Secular Thought (Leiden 1996/Albany 1998); Lodovico Lazzarelli (1447-1500): The Hermetic Writings and Related Documents (Tempe 2005; with Ruud M. Bouthoorn); Swedenborg, Oetinger, Kant: Three Perspectives on the Secrets of Heaven (West Chester 2007); Esotericism and the Academy: Rejected Knowledge in Western Culture (Cambridge 2012); and Western Esotericism: A Guide for the Perplexed (London 2013). He has (co)edited eight collective volumes, including the 1200-page Dictionary of Gnosis and Western Esotericism (Leiden 2005) and Hidden Intercourse: Eros and Sexuality in the History of Western Esotericism (New York 2011; with Jeffrey J. Kripal). His most recent monograph Hermetic Spirituality and the Historical Imagination: Altered States of Knowledge in Late Antiquity is forthcoming with Cambridge University Press in 2022. His current projects are focused on the history of consciousness in German Idealism and Romanticism, and the role of the imagination in Western culture. https://www.wouterjhanegraaff.net Website for The Sacred Speaks: http://www.thesacredspeaks.com WATCH: YouTube for The Sacred Speaks https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOAuksnpfht1udHWUVEO7Rg Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thesacredspeaks/ @thesacredspeaks Twitter: https://twitter.com/thesacredspeaks Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thesacredspeaks/ Brought to you by: https://www.thecenterforhas.com Theme music provided by: http://www.modernnationsmusic.com

Conversation starts @ 6:31 We begin with a discussion of Sean’s shift of consciousness during a psychedelic experience at a young age wherein he could map his experience onto what the traditions of chaos theory and Aldous Huxley’s perennial philosophy explained. Following this experience and at the suggestion of a professor of mysticism, Sean followed the thread to help with his integration. With a deep history as a psychonaut combined with Sean’s interest is in music and pop culture he therefore approaches the material of psychedelic experience from a different lens than one that we hear from traditional academia. Sean integrated his personal experimentation in both magic and psychedelics into a particular ceremony inspired by the archetype of the magician as imaged by David Bowie. Sean notes that when working with the medicine of mushrooms he experienced an archetypal messianic shift and worked to make sense of what Jung called, “holding the tension of the opposites” – not fully identifying with this experience, though not writing it off either. The middle path. We offer a disclaimer for the healthy use of psychedelics, noting how overwhelming these substances can be and the necessity to approach the use of these sacramental substances with care and reverence. We discuss cancel culture, anti-fragility, high-dose psilocybin practice, ceremonial magic, repurposing the energy of popular culture to help bring in awareness of the sacred, and more. Bio: Sean Manseau was born in Boston, MA, the son of a married Roman Catholic priest and a former Sister of St. Joseph. At various points he has been a mall janitor, a lounge act guitarist, a failed paratrooper, a San Francisco bike messenger, a video game animator, a Muay Thai instructor, homeless, an East Village NYC bartender, a failed novelist, a gym owner, and a video game industry executive. In addition to A.P. Psychedelics: Going Beyond Set and Setting to Achieve Visionary Virtuosity, he is the author of the spiritual autobiography Spotify the Gnostics, Here's the First Church of David Bowie, the coaching manual By the Numbers: A Practical Method for Instructing Multi-Modal GPP Training, the novel Lapdance, and the short story collection You Are Not a Planet and Other Stories. He lives in Portland, OR, with his dog Jones. to purchase book: https://www.amazon.com/P-Psychedelics-Setting-Visionary-Virtuosity/dp/B09X35NDQF/ref=sr_1_2?crid=34QIVK0FPWPW8&keywords=a.p.+psychedelics&qid=1664877430&qu=eyJxc2MiOiIwLjAwIiwicXNhIjoiMC4wMCIsInFzcCI6IjAuMDAifQ%3D%3D&sprefix=a.p.+psychedelics%2Caps%2C87&sr=8-2 Website for The Sacred Speaks: http://www.thesacredspeaks.com WATCH: YouTube for The Sacred Speaks https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOAuksnpfht1udHWUVEO7Rg Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thesacredspeaks/ @thesacredspeaks Twitter: https://twitter.com/thesacredspeaks Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thesacredspeaks/ Brought to you by: https://www.thecenterforhas.com Theme music provided by: http://www.modernnationsmusic.com

Conversation starts @ 8:25 How can we understand traditional accounts of visionary experience in terms of the neurophysiology of our brain? What are the scientific bases for shamanism and healing, cross-culturally, throughout history beginning with the Byzantine era to today? These are several questions posited by Dr. Winkelman within the first few minutes of the interview. We continue exploring the void experience of introverted mysticism and the narratives expressed in extroverted mysticism (and what are the differences?), spiritual practice and psychedelic use in youth, recreational vs. religious use of these substances, a session with the Mazatec healer, Maria Sabina, in his youth, we discuss the tendency toward reductionism when using a physiological lens to explain the phenomenology of consciousness, describe the neurophenomonological experience of the spirit world, extrasensory perceptions and the brain, what is real?, naive materialism, group consciousness and the development of religion and the religious impulse, belonging, religion and social control, symbol use and group dynamics, religious groups and social connections, western medicine, ritual in healing, placebo effect, cross-cultural analysis of shamanism, priests & witches. Bio: Michael Winkelman, PhD, University of California–Irvine; MPH, University of Arizona, retired from the School of Human Evolution and Social Change at Arizona State University in 2009. Winkelman has engaged in cross-cultural and interdisciplinary research on shamanism, psychedelics, and altered states of consciousness, focusing principally on the universal patterns of shamanism and identifying the associated biological bases. His publications on shamanism include Shamans, Priests and Witches (1992), which provides a cross-cultural examination of the nature of shamanism; and Shamanism: A Biopsychosocial Paradigm of Consciousness and Healing (2nd ed., 2010). Shamanism provides a biogenetic model of shamanism that explains the evolutionary origins of spiritual healing in ancient ritual capacities. This biogenetic approach is expanded in an assessment of the evolutionary origins of religion in his co-authored Supernatural as Natural. These approaches provide a framework for understanding the contribution of psychedelics to the evolution of the human mind and social relations and their continued application in healing. Winkelman served as an expert witness for the defense in the Santo Daime case against the U.S. federal government, which won their right of religious freedom to use of ayahuasca as a sacrament. Winkelman received a Fulbright Fellowship for research on the health of ayahuasca church members in Brazil during 2009 ( https://doi.org/10.3389/fpsyt.2018.00136 ). Winkelman is currently living near Pirenopolis in the central highlands of Brazil; he may be reached through his website: https://michaelwinkelman.com Articles: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Michael-Winkelman to purchase book: http://www.abc-clio.com/ABC-CLIOCorporate/product.aspx?pc=A2593C Referenced resources: https://www.ligare.org Website for The Sacred Speaks: http://www.thesacredspeaks.com WATCH: YouTube for The Sacred Speaks https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOAuksnpfht1udHWUVEO7Rg Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thesacredspeaks/ @thesacredspeaks Twitter: https://twitter.com/thesacredspeaks Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thesacredspeaks/ Brought to you by: https://www.thecenterforhas.com Theme music provided by: http://www.modernnationsmusic.com