VO BOSS

Microphones are microscopes. They pick up everything, including thoughtful acting! In this episode, Anne & Pilar discuss why acting is essential to a successful VO career. Acting requires imagination, creativity, and using much more than just your voice. Tune in for advice on involving your body in your read, the intimacy of voice acting, and why you need to develop a character for every genre… More at https://voboss.com/the-art-of-voice-acting Transcript >> It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Pilar: Hola, BOSS Voces. Bienvenidos al podcast con Anne Ganguzza y Pilar Uribe. Anne: Hey everyone. Welcome to the VO BOSS podcast. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, along with special guest cohost Pilar Uribe. Good morning, Pilar. How are you? Pilar: I am great, Anne. I'm doing well. How are you? Anne: Oh, you know, I'm doing all right. Except I, I've already spilled half a cup of coffee. Oops. I just -- Pilar: Did it again? Anne: -- I admitted that I drink -- no, I admit that I drink coffee. I love my coffee, and people that listen to this podcast know how much I love my coffee. So I have to chase it with lots and lots of water so it doesn't dry my mouth out. And hopefully you're not hearing mouth noise at this point, but anyway. Pilar: I just heard one. No, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. Anne: So there we go. So then, I'm going to have you talk so you can hear less of my mouth noise. Pilar: Okay. Anne: But I love our conversations that we've been having. And in our last couple of episodes, we talked about what it was like for you to be a bilingual VO in the industry and what it takes to be successful. And I want to kind of step back because you've had such an extensive career in all sorts of things. And I think something that's really important that I want to kind of reign in and talk a little bit more about is your acting experience. And I know that there's a lot of voiceover artists out there that are like, oh my gosh, I've never really acted. At least I came from the corporate side of things and didn't have an acting background, but as I went along, I learned acting. And I don't want people to be afraid that well, just because they don't have a ton of acting experience that they can't do voiceover. However, I do believe it's important for us to talk about how important acting is in our career. Pilar: It is, I would say, fundamental. Anne: Yeah. Pilar: That's why the word acting is in voice acting. Anne: Yeah, I agree. Pilar: You know, this is something that also happens. Sometimes people think that you're like a talking head when you're on television, because you only get to see, let's say shoulders or chest, shoulders, and face. But when you're acting, you're acting with your whole body, and that goes for voice as well. So when I started acting in high school, when I started getting formal training, I majored in theater and we had acting classes. And you know, you do the proverbial, you know, act like a teapot, act like a tiger, and all these sense exercises. Anne: I was a dog in my third grade play. Pilar: Exactly, exactly. You know how to go bow-wow. Anne: I'm just saying. Pilar: But those things are important. What does it feel like to be on all fours rather than to be upright? And it's something that I think that a lot of voice actors don't think that they need. And you need to have those sensory experiences, however you're going to get them. So a lot of the work that I did when I was in college and later when I went down to Colombia, for example, I kept taking acting classes even while I had a television career, because I had to keep the body trained, because the body gets rusty, and we're, we tend to be lazy. And I'm the first to admit it. Anne: I think to be said for -- you made me just think about when I was a little girl, right? Remember when we had all kinds of imagination or is it just me? It's like, I used to imagine -- Pilar: Yes. Back then. Anne: Back then I had so much imagination, and I would play with my dolls. I would teach my dolls. I had my stuffed Mickey Mouse. I dragged him everywhere. And we became like acting partners if, for nothing else. Right? Pilar: Totally. Anne: I had all sorts of adventures with him. And I think that there's a lot to be said for that. And somehow when we get older, sometimes we lose that unless we're actively going into acting like you were. And I think that we need to readdress that as we become adults and find areas or times when we can go back to that time to create scenes and use our imagination. And I think there's a lot of that in voiceover that we have to do behind the mic because we're acting in front of a non-existent audience. Pilar: Do you remember, did you ever make forts? Anne: Oh yes. All the time. Pilar: Okay. So making forts, you're making forts out of pillows, out of blankets. You're making up a scene, a place, a cubby hole, a cave that basically doesn't exist. Anne: Right. Pilar: And that's what we have to do when we step in front of the mic and we're doing, let's say, a video game, and we have to imagine that we are a warrior or we are a computer game. I did a video game last year that came out, actually it was in 2020 or 2021. And it came out a couple of weeks ago where I played, I actually played a computer voice. That was one of my characters. And then the other character was an old woman. And so for the old woman, I changed my stance completely. So I was hunched over. I always have, since my voiceover booth is my closet, I basically just took my clothes -- I did leave some clothes out, but I just padded the whole thing. And I have a couple of scarves handy. When I would play that character, that older character I would hunch over, and I would put a shawl over me over my head, over my shoulders. Anne: So you got props. Pilar: Yeah, oh, I always have props, always have props. Whether it's a cell phone, I have, I actually have a toy gun on my desk, a little plastic toy gun, because so many of these characters, we know when I'm auditioning or when I'm doing them, they require, let's say the older lady, she was hallucinating. And so she was seeing things, and she was just immersed in grief. So I had to go there with her in order for my voice to register. It wasn't that I was manipulating the voice. I had to feel her sadness and her grief and her seeing things, which weren't really there because she was so enmeshed in her grief. And so the only way that I can do that is if I imagine it. So you're absolutely right about going back in time. If there is a time that you can go back to. And I did this all the time when I was in Colombia. There were so many characters that I did that I had no previous experience in playing. Anne: Well, I was going to say, I say, Pilar, I know you, and you're not evil, but yet you played an evil character. Right? Pilar: Oh, and she was so much fun to play. Anne: And, you know, what's interesting is I watched the little clip that you had, and I don't remember what particular scene it was, but you were having a conversation with someone else. Your hair was short. And again, I don't understand Spanish, which again, it's one of those things I kicked myself for not learning. And I'm going to, I really should just start learning it -- but just your facial expressions alone, you embodied that character. Like you didn't have to understand Spanish to understand that you were an evil character in that. And it was literally like, what, 20 seconds, 30-second clip. Pilar: Yeah. She was so mean. So nasty. Anne: Yeah. Yeah. Pilar: And people would stop me on the street all the time in Colombia. And they would say -- because the name of the show was "Eternamente Manuela," Eternally Manuela," and Manuela was my first cousin. Anne: Would they hate you? Pilar: So they was like, oh my God, they would do two things. They would say, why are you -- they would stop me on the streets. Why so mean to Manuela? Or they would meet me and they'd go, oh, wow. You're really nice. What happened? It was just like, well, I'm playing a character. She was really, really evil. However, when you're playing a character, I never saw her as being evil when I was playing her. I just saw her as being misunderstood. Anne: Okay. Pilar: And so I did an outline for her. I did a backstory for her, where she came from, how she grew up, what were some things that might have brought her to that present moment of when she first steps into the character, into the script that first day. And that really informed what I would do for the rest of the show. Anne: So you weren't thinking like, you're actually playing mean, but -- Pilar: No. Anne: -- because you had such a backstory built up already, it became a reaction. Is that correct? Pilar: Exactly. So this, this came with time because I had time to rehearse before I started the show. So when I'm in the booth, and I've got a script and I'm handed sides at, let's say 5:00 in the afternoon, which is when agents send them generally. And then they're due the next morning. Exactly. And I'm looking at a piece of paper, I'm looking at a piece of paper with words, and that's all there is. There might be a description thrown in and there might be some specs. Anne: There might be a picture if it's a character, right? Pilar: There might be a picture. But generally you're just, it's a piece of paper, and it's not even a piece of paper. It's a bunch of words on a screen. Anne: Right, right. Pilar: So it's my job as an actor to imagine this character. And if I'm talking about anything, I'm talking about commercial, promo, whatever it is that you're given. If you're talking about Folger's Coffee, it's delicious. You have to see and smell that coffee. So let's say you're not Anne Ganguzza, and you hate coffee. Okay? So you have to imagine, okay, so I hate coffee, let's say, and I don't, but let's say I do. And I'm, and I have an audition to do the next day. Well, I have to find something in my memory bank of what I love that resembles coffee. Because if I don't like coffee, I hate the taste of it. Well, maybe I like hot chocolate or I like hot apple cider, so I have to substitute. And I have to imagine, and I have to feel, feel it. I have to taste it. I have to see it. I have to hear it. So I can hear the drip, drip, drip. So using all the senses, that's where the imagination, that's how you can get that character. And you can do that. You know, at the beginning, people will go, oh yeah, well it's acting. And you know, I just sit there and I read the copy, and I get into it. And I read it a few times. Well, absolutely. You read it a few times, but you start sort of clicking on your memory bank to see what you can bring into it. Because when you bring in your memories, I mean, we can, we can do this exercise right now. So what's your favorite food? Anne: Oh, all of it. Probably bread. Pilar: Okay. What's your favorite type of bread? Anne: Italian. Pilar: Be more specific? A Tuscan loaf. Okay. So I want you, okay. Perfect. Artisan Tuscan, loaf from La Brea Bakery. I want you to put yourself in the bakery right now. I want you to close your eyes, and I want you to feel, and I'm in the Tuscan bakery too, even though I've never been there -- Anne: It's warm from the ovens. Pilar: Okay. And so it's warm -- Anne: Because they're baking bread. Pilar: They're baking bread. And it's like, your mouth is starting to salivate. Anne: 'Cause I can smell the bread baking. Pilar: You can smell the bread. And so maybe you ask for the loaf, you get the bread, you get it sliced, right? Anne: And I can see it because it's golden. Pilar: And you can see it. And then you take it home. Anne: It's got a little bit of a crust. Pilar: And you cannot wait. You've decided you need to taste the bread before you leave the store. So what I want you to do is I want you to just talk about the bread that you're eating right now. Anne: Okay. So first of all, I'm going to tell you that I like a dense bread, so -- that has a crispy crust, right? So it's crispy on the outside and it's a little heavy in my hands. Pilar: Stop right there. I want you to say it as you're tasting it. It's crispy the outside. Anne: It's crispy on the outside and it's heavy in my hand. So it's, it's dense. It's got a lot of flavor. Pilar: What does it taste like? Anne: Heaven. It tastes like -- well, I need to have butter on it. So I put butter on it. It's just, it's got, it's got, oh, it's got, it's salty. It's it's even, even sweet to me. Pilar: Okay. And see what you just did there? You just gave that little paragraph a whole bunch of different flavors and colors because you were experiencing it as you were saying it. Anne: Yeah, absolutely. Pilar: So that's what we have to do with every piece of copy. Anne: And now I'm hungry. Pilar: I am too. I'm like I'm in that Tuscan bakery. Anne: But wait, I just want to say this is for everything. I want to reiterate that we're talking about acting for every genre. You know, people think that e-learning and corporate narration and telephony, you don't have a character. Oh my gosh. Yes. You absolutely have to have a character as well. It may not be as dynamic maybe or as emotional because it depends on the experience that you're in. Right? I think if you're going to be taught a lesson from a teacher, the teacher's not necessarily going to be sad and crying or emotional in that sense, or if you're doing a corporate narration, right? You're in a professional environment. So you may or may not have a wide range of emotions, but you'll absolutely have nuanced emotions and those emotions, right, and the acting, you absolutely have to have those nuances because you're not just reading the words that puts you in the scene and it makes you believable. Pilar: Absolutely, Anne. I will go one step further because it is actually to a person who works for State Farm, it is that important. Anne: Absolutely. Pilar: You approach every piece of copy as it is appropriate to the genre that you're talking about. So let's say through the commercial, when he EF Hutton talks, people listen. And it was so effective because people were sitting there, they were talking and, and then the scene was that everybody was talking and then that person stopped. The voiceover would say it and then it stopped. And so you knew that that was the EF Hutton commercial. So that can register in your voice. Anne: Absolutely. Pilar: If you are thinking -- 'cause it doesn't matter whether it's bread or it's a video game character or it's Charles Schwab. Anne: Right. Pilar: It's really all about what you put into it. So if you're doing a commercial about Charles Schwab, you're dressed in a business suit. You're sitting in your, and there's a whole bunch of investment bankers. If you don't know what it is, you look it up. That's what YouTube is for. Anne: Oh my gosh. Yes. Pilar: YouTube is such a great resource. Anne: You to take that minute, take that minute and Google, for goodness' sake. Pilar: Go look up the product, go to ispot TV, go listen, go, go get your feet immersed in it, go see the competition, see what they're doing. Anne: Absolutely. Pilar: It doesn't take more than five, ten minutes. Anne: It really doesn't. You know what? It amazes me Pilar that there are so many people that just, they rush to get so many auditions done in a day. And yet they don't take a minute to really research the product, the brand, the company, whatever it is, right? For the most part, doing that little extra work really, really helps you in just upping your game and taking it to a whole new. Pilar: Absolutely. Because here's the thing. Whether or not you get selected, because obviously the odds, you know, there's so many people auditioning at once for one role. To me, it's more important to have a well-crafted audition, that I stopped and thought about it. I don't have to spend hours on it. No. But when I play it back and I go away for a minute and I, let's say, go get a cup of water, and then I come back and I listen to it again. Is it something that I can be proud of? Or am I just sending it in? Because I waited until the last minute, and I did it and I just have to get it in before the deadline? So you want it to be as real as possible so that the person listening on the other end will go, oh, okay. I can't use her, but she's got a great voice, because that has happened to me. You know, over the past -- Anne: Or you can tell, well, she can act. I think there's a lot of that when they're listening to the audition, we may not get that gig, but you will absolutely prove yourself that you are an actor. Pilar: Well, and here's something that's really important to know is that the casting director gets a whole bunch of voices together from the agents and then sends it off to the client. And then it's the client, the copywriter who makes the decision. But really and truly, when the casting director, since they listen to every audition, they're going to be hearing your voice over and over and over again. So if you're presenting good auditions, there is a situation, even though there are certain people who make the decisions, the casting director is also lobbying for people that he or she is saying, oh, that's really good. I really liked that. So that's why it's also so important that care is taken when you present something because an audition is not just an audition. And audition is like, is a little one act play. It's a 30-second or it's a 15-second one act play with the beginning, middle, and end. And to treat it any less than that is doing yourself a disservice. Anne: So let me ask you a question. So when you get casting specs, are you following the casting specs? Because I've heard both sides of the coin here, follow the casting specs, or really just bring yourself to the party and bring your own uniqueness. So what's your plan?What is your strategy when you get an audition? Pilar: That's such a loaded question, and I've heard it answered in so many different ways. I do look at the specs. I know people who say, don't look at the specs until the end. Don't pay attention. Other people say, follow the specs. You have to read whatever the casting director is sending you via the agent because they're sending it specifically so you take stock. And I know one specific casting director who's like people, read the spec, I'm tailor making it so guys don't miss any little detail of what the client wants. This person said it. They were like, I'm giving you all these breadcrumbs, go ahead and use them. That said, it's not like you're chained to do it exactly. Anne: Right. Pilar: Because they're looking for your interpretation of it. Anne: Yeah, your unique spin. Pilar: I mean, at the beginning, and I know so many people listening on this podcast have I'm sure gotten Sigourney Weaver, sound like Emma Stone. Anne: Yup. Yup. Pilar: Scarlett Johansson. I mean every, you know, all day long, you get all these sound like, and what they're looking for is not an -- I used to, I used to fall into the trap, as I'm sure many people have when I first started seeing those names, as I would run and look at her and try to almost copy their voices. Anne: Right. Pilar: And that's not what they're looking for. They're looking for an attitude. Anne: Yeah, or an emotion. Pilar: What's your point of view? Yeah. But what's your point of view? Who are you talking to? Because if I'm looking at somebody, and we're back in the bakery on La Brea, and I'm looking at the sales person and I'm saying, can I get some bread? And 'cause I'm just having a good day and or maybe I haven't had anything and I'm like, can I get some bread, because I have to go take a pill with my -- and I have to get bread. So, and so it's like -- Anne: Or the pill's stuck in your throat and you need the bread to push it down. Pilar: Can I get some bread? Anne: That happens to me all the -- I need, I need a cracker or I need a bread -- need a piece of bread. Pilar: Right, exactly. So it's all in how you, what is your attitude? Who are you speaking to?What's your point of view while you're saying this piece of copy? Anne: It's so, so important. And it's funny because you and I may experience completely different genres during our days. Right? I do a lot of corporate. I do a lot of e-learning. I do a lot of telephony, but yet I also am always thinking about who I am, who I'm talking to, and putting myself in a scene because that emotion or that nuanced emotion is everything. It is everything. It is what takes a voice actor from simply reading the words to being immersed and making a believable and authentic. And I can't express enough people just say, they just read it and they read it in a melody that they think it should sound like, right? Oh, I've heard it on television like this, or, oh, I've, I've heard it in a video like this, but I'm like, no, you are not the person that's going to mimic any of that. And as a matter of fact, if you get the job, like I'm trying to train you what it takes to get the job. Right? And then when you get the job, then you can be directed as to however the client wants it. But I think you have to prove your acting first. And that I think it comes down to really, I think, the emotion and the point of view that you're talking about, which is everything. Pilar: Yeah. Yeah. I would hazard that to say that long-form, something like e-learning, it's almost more important. Anne: Oh my God. Yes. Absolutely. Pilar: Because you have to think about, who's listening to this on the other end. So if I'm going to be doing this, you know, straight kind of a thing, then, you know, once upon a time there was a little... and then, and my range doesn't change or [singsong] my range is changing like this, and it's always like this, you're going to drive the person on the other end crazy. Anne: Exactly. Pilar: So you are telling a story, no matter what genre -- Anne: No matter what you're doing. Pilar: Yeah. And you have to always tell a the story. Anne: You have to pull attention. Pilar: Absolutely. Anne: The longer it is, I think the harder it is. Pilar: I agree. Anne: And I think the more dry the material, the harder you have to be in that scene, you have to be that character so that you can hold their attention. I mean, there's so many other things vying for our attention. And that is absolutely. I think so, so important for us to understand that acting is, is everything. It really is, acting as everything in terms of, I believe being successful in your voiceover career. So let me ask you a question. What are the differences that you've experienced in, let's say, stage acting or on-camera acting and voice acting. What are the major differences that you have to account for? Pilar: Okay. Stage acting. Well, first of all, you're projecting because you have to reach the last person, the last seat in the theater. Anne: Yeah, and we don't have to do that in our studios. Pilar: No, you don't have to do that. Film acting is very close. It's very concentrated. Anne: Well, plus you have somebody to kind of, if you're in a scene with somebody, right, you have somebody else to play off of. Pilar: Yeah, absolutely. Anne: And that's a big -- Pilar: Not always, not always -- Anne: No? Okay. Pilar: -- but at least you -- yeah, well, because a lot of the times, if you're, if you're doing, if they're doing a closeup of you, sometimes the other actor will, will be there, but sometimes they won't be. And it'll just be a stand-in. So a lot of the times you have to use your imagination. Voiceover though, you generally never have anybody to bounce off of. Anne: Right. That's where your imagination takes, right? Pilar: That's why you have to use imagination. Anne: Yeah, you have to have a lot of it because you have no, you have no audience. Pilar: And also I think something that's so important that people don't realize that I discovered actually many, many years ago when I was working, when I first started working in television, I remember a cameraman, because you know, they work long, long hours. And he once said to me, he said, everything that comes through there, we can see what you're doing because the camera never lies. Anne: Oh yeah. Pilar: He said it in such a way. And I was -- Anne: That makes so much sense. Pilar: And it was just so interesting to me because I thought, wow, they've always got, you know, their eyes trained on you when the cameras aren't rolling, 'cause they're setting up the shot. So there is a truth that you have to present. Otherwise, if you are quote, unquote acting, it's going to show because the camera picks up everything, and the microphone is the same thing. Anne: You know, it's funny because if you do the parallel thinking and whenever I watch television or a movie right away, I immediately say, oh my God, I don't believe that. I don't believe that character. And it's rare that I see it because most of the time, if it's released for television or movies, you've got a credible actor behind it. But if you ever have that experience where you're not believing the character, it is so obvious. And yet I don't think people think about that when they're doing voiceover, right? They think it just has to sound a particular way, and that will make it believable. But in reality, if somebody is listening on the other end, right, and they have a keen sense of believability, I think people always know. They may not be able to put their finger on it as to why it's not believable, but they will be able to tell that it's not believable. And it sounds just like, hey, it's an announcer. You know, that kind of thing. But I think in reality, we all have to strive for that believability factor first because when you can get there, regardless of the copy -- I mean not every piece of copy is Pulitzer prize, winning material, right? I mean, that's where our jobs come in to make it a story, make it our story and to bring that story to the table and make it believable. And if we can't, it's, it's obvious to the ear. Maybe not our own ears, but it's obvious to the person listening that has a vested interest. And if you cannot engage with that listener, then they don't have to engage with you. Right? They don't have to listen to you. Pilar: Exactly. Or if it's a casting director or -- Anne: Exactly. Pilar: -- they're listening to your there'll be just, okay, next. Anne: Exactly. Next. Pilar: We're done. You know, what I've heard over the past two years now, every single casting director says, we listen to every audition. What they don't say is how long they listened to it. So I've been told that literally six seconds in, sometimes it's less. If they don't hear the truth, they just go onto the next audition. They do not listen to the whole thing. Anne: And you know what, that makes me even more resolute in the fact that your very first words out of your mouth for that audition or for whatever it is, you have to already have been in the scene. And it has to have been a reaction to something. Pilar: You're responding. Anne: Yeah. You're responding. And that melody, if you want to break it down into melodies, if you're musical, is completely different than simply starting a word, like welcome, you know, I mean, that's like, oh, that was just, I read the word welcome, but it would sound completely different if I was actually welcoming you at the door. And it would sound completely different. Pilar: Or you could be welcoming into an airplane. Anne: Exactly, exactly. Pilar: Or welcoming into a car or welcoming into a school. It's going to be completely different because we are -- Anne: Wherever you are. Pilar: Yeah, exactly. Anne: I think that's every time for my genre is, you know, when it's welcome or introducing or any of those words, right, it's hard to make them sound authentic, believable. Right? We don't always, we're not always saying welcome, you know, in our everyday life, but you've got to make it sound like it's a greeting, and that you are genuinely happy to see that person. So that becomes a challenge for people. So you've got to step into that scene and figure out what is that scene before you even start talking? I think that's, that's so important. Pilar: And I think it's also important, probably one of the most important things is to have a lead-in which you're not going to put on the audition necessarily, unless they're asking for improv, but that you're having a conversation. Anne: Yes, absolutely. Pilar: You're having a conversation before you start speaking. Anne: Yep. That helps for sure. Pilar: It's like, when you're going, when you're rolling into the scene, it's not like you just kind of get up and start. You're already in there. You're already talking about it. And then you can just flow right into the words. Anne: Absolutely. Pilar: It's so much harder when you're like, oh, okay, you see the line going. And it's like, okay, now we have to start talking. That's not real. Anne: This is the beginning. Pilar: Right? Exactly. Anne: It's like, no. Pilar: So if you say, if you say, oh, I'm here, I'm in front of a whole bunch of people and they're really, really excited. And this is going to be a really great day. And the sun is shining -- Anne: Welcome. This is just the beginning. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I love that. Yeah. Welcome. Wow. Good stuff, Pilar. I could talk acting all day. We can talk acting all day. I think that was -- thanks so much for those nuggets of wisdom. I absolutely think our BOSSes are going to appreciate those. You guys, I am going to give a great, big shout-out to our sponsor, ipDTL that allows us to connect like BOSSes. You guys can find out more at ipdtl.com. Pilar, It's been amazing as usual. And I thank you for being with us. Pilar: Glad to be here again. Anne: Yeah. You guys, have a great weekend. We'll see you next week. Bye. Pilar: Bye-bye. >> Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voboss.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.

There is nothing more human than storytelling. In this bonus Voice & Ai episode, Anne is joined by award-winning voice actor Emily Lawrence, Co-Founder of The Professional Audiobook Narrators' Association. They discuss the financial vs. social implications of Ai voices, creating a community for audiobook narrators, and why human-ness is an essential part of storytelling… Transcript >> It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Anne: Hey everyone. Welcome to the VO BOSS podcast for another episode of the AI and voice series. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, and today I'm excited to bring special guest Emily Lawrence to the show. Emily is an award-winning actor and writer that's narrated more than 425 audiobooks for publishers such as McMillan, Harper Collins, Penguin, Random House, Simon and Schuster, and many more. She's incredibly proud to be the co-founder and chair of the newly formed Professional Audiobook Narrators Association, or PANA, as everybody has come to know it. Her greatest loves are storytelling and reading of course. So narrating audiobooks is a dream come true for her. And her other passions include traveling, LARPing, aerial surf, fostering kittens, and chocolate. So I have a lot to talk to you about because I love cats. We know that. I have three of them. And so I just love the fact that you foster kittens. Emily: I do. Anne: And thank you so much for joining me today. It's a pleasure to have you here. Emily: Well, thank you for having me. Anne: Yes. Emily: Happy to be here. Anne: So in addition to the kitties, um, I need to ask you for a more complete description. I have never heard of this, but that might not be a surprise. LARPing. Emily: A-ha. Anne: For those BOSSes in the audience that may not be familiar with that, what is that? Emily: Uh, so LARPing stands for live action role play, and it's the nerdiest thing you've never heard of. Anne: I kinda love that. Emily: Um, so basically it's like -- people tend to be more familiar with Dungeons and Dragons, so it's basically like that, which is a kind of like you're role-playing out a video game kind of, only in Dungeons and Dragons, you sit around a table, and you talk about everything you're doing and you like roll dice to simulate fighting and whatever. And in LARPing, you actually role-play everything. So it's like a bunch of nerds in a park with like foam weapons. Anne: I love it. Emily: Fighting each other. Anne: I love it. That's great. Well, look, hey, the nerdier, the better as far as I'm concerned. Emily: Yeah, no, I love it. Anne: That's fantastic. So again, it's great to get to know the you behind the association that has been newly formed. How old is PANA now? Emily: Uh, well we opened to members, I think it was October 21st or -- Anne: Wow. Emily: -- thereabouts. Anne: Fantastic. So tell me, you know, I'm very excited to hear about this because I think it's probably about time, right, in the audiobook world, that there is an association that is vested in the interests of the community. Talk to me about that. Emily: Yeah. Well, I mean, there have been other organizations such as the Audio Publishers Association, which really represents publishers. Anne: Right. Emily: But narrators and other people in the industry can be members. And then obviously there's SAG-AFTRA which represents narrators as a labor union, but SAG-AFTRA also represents everybody else. Anne: Sure. Emily: So there was no organization that really was dedicated to narrators specifically. And I think you're right. It was about time and long overdue. Anne: So, I know that there's a lot involved in creating an organization. Tell me a little bit about that story and how did that begin? I mean, what was -- were there issues that were coming up in the audiobook world that you were saying, you know what, we need an organization to really take care of our community? Emily: Yeah. There have been talks for many years of -- among narrators of feeling unrepresented in various places and in various ways. And then obviously with the rising danger, I guess, or whatever of AI, I certainly felt like, okay, somebody has to do something. And so earlier this year, there were a lot of conversations in Narrator, Facebook, and other groups just kind of like that made me feel like, okay, we need to organize. We need to come together. And so I did that. Anne: And have a voice. I love that. Well, hey, it's one thing to talk, right, to sit around in groups and talk. I have so much respect for the fact that you pulled something together. I mean, there's a lot of work involved in that. Emily: Yeah. It was definitely a lot of work. I am very grateful to have my co-founder Emily Ellet with me through the whole process. And so we kind of started talking like about what this would be and how the community needs it. And then we just kind of did it. Anne: Well, I -- Emily: Here we are. Anne: You know, I love it. I was looking at your website, which for those BOSSes out there that want to check them out, it is pronarrators.org. I love your statement on who we are. I just think that your mission statement is providing opportunities for raising awareness of the narrator within public consciousness. And you have so many wonderful things that represent that this organization is going to be doing for narrators. Tell me a little bit about the initiatives for those things. Emily: Sure. Well, we're certainly very ambitious. We have a lot of really big plans, mostly around three things really. One is education, education both of narrators in order to raise narration standards throughout the industry, but also education of the public, and education in the industry about narrator needs and the fact that we exist because -- Anne: Sure. Emily: -- a lot of people listen to audiobooks and don't give a second thought to the performer who's bringing that story to life for them. And that's obviously important to us that, especially when you're talking about having humans versus robot narrators, you know, for people to recognize that we're human to begin with is probably really important there. So education in general is a big focus for us. Uh, we also have a focus on advocacy, which is kind of our umbrella term for all of the things that we want to do to help our industry thrive with human narrators as part of the mix, and the changes that we would like to see in order to help make that happen. And then the last one would be just community, fostering a community. As I kind of pointed out before, there was no organization that really represented narrators specifically, and only -- and we have a really wonderful, giving community. I mean, honestly, the narrator community is some of the most wonderful, friendly, open, supportive people I've ever met. You know, for a bunch of people who are essentially competitors, we're all so supportive of each other. We all help each other out all the time. And it felt like it would be really wonderful to have an organization that sort of formally recognizes, celebrates, expands, and strengthens that. Anne: So what sort of -- do you have events planned for things that you've -- meetings coming up, events, community outreach, what sorts of things do you have planned for the future? Emily: So we've got lots of plans. Um, everything's just in the beginning stages. We're a member-driven organization. So we operate entirely on volunteer labor. And so our committees have only just started. I mean, they all had their first meeting last month. And so everything is in its infancy. We're just getting started, but we've got big plans for example, community events to get together both in person and online and sort of, you know, build friendships, but also network and things like that. We have plans for an award ceremony that is going to be community-driven and peer-reviewed. So kind of like the Audies, which is our current Oscars essentially meets like the SAG Award. So it will be like a peer-reviewed award show, but that has different sort of categories than typical award shows that really focus in on celebrating our community in a different way, which I think I'm really excited about. Anne: Plans on collaborating or is it a possibility to do any type of collaborative work with the union? Emily: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. We've reached out to both the APA and SAG-AFTRA announcing our existence -- Anne: Right. Emily: -- and saying that we would really like to work with them to further our mutual goals, and both of them have responded very positively -- Anne: Excellent. Emily: -- and very supportive. And so we really do look forward to working with existing organizations to move everyone forward. Anne: So in terms of membership, so if I wanted to be a member, are there requirements, are there -- do you vet your members? What's involved if I wanted to become a member? Emily: Sure. Anne: Because I personally don't do audiobooks and don't hold that against me. I -- just not in my genre, but I know so many people that are just so passionate about the craft of audiobooks and narrating. So if I wanted to be a member, could I, or what is the process? Emily: So members are -- you're eligible for membership if you have recorded at least one audiobook -- Anne: Okay. Emily: -- that is available on some sort of commercial platform. Anne: Okay. Emily: So it's a very low, you know, if you've narrated one book, you can join. There's dues that have to pay, but then you're a voting member. Anne: Okay, great. Emily: If you do not qualify for a membership, we also are creating sponsorship tiers. So we'll have sponsorship tiers -- Anne: Okay. Emily: -- for -- Anne: Nice. Emily: -- other people in the industry like directors, proofers, editors, et cetera. And those are not ready yet, but once they are, there'll be sort of different ways to support the industry and get benefits and like access to events and things like that for doing stuff. Anne: Got it. Are you an official nonprofit organization? Emily: Okay. So we are operating as a nonprofit. We cannot apply for our nonprofit status until we file our first tax return. Anne: Got it. Emily: So -- Anne: Got -- well, I know that it's an involved thing, which is one of the reasons why -- I've, I've served on the boards of many nonprofits. So I know how involved it can be, which is again, why I have a lot of respect for you taking the initiative to put this together for the community. There's so much work involved in nonprofit, and I know how important volunteers and volunteer efforts go. It's so hard when everybody is busy to take the time and be able to help out in an organization like this. And I really look forward to the success of PANA because I know a lot of organizations that start off with the best of hopes. And then it turns into something where it is an awful lot of work and maybe more work than people anticipate. And so I know how it can be hard to progress. Emily: Well, it's definitely more work than I anticipated. Anne: Yup. Emily: I'm committed. So I'm there. And I know my co-founder Emily Ellet is also very committed, and we have a wonderful board. We've put together a board of some of the most respected -- Anne: Oh yes. Emily: -- people in our industry, and they are all very committed also. Everyone has expressed a sort of surprised at how much work it really is. Anne: Right, yeah. Emily: But, um, you know, everybody has affirmed to me multiple times, as recently as yesterday, that like, you know, we're in this and we're going to make this work. Anne: Well, I think having a voice for the audiobook industry is so important, especially with things that develop within our own industry. I mean, not just in audiobooks, but in the voiceover industry as a whole, we are facing changes, and I've known this because I've done my AI and voice series for at least 30 episodes now. So there are things that are, you know, impending and coming into this industry that we as professionals need to understand, and I don't know, evolve or work with or not, or form an educated strategy in order to co-exist, let's say, with them. So I will talk about the AI elephant in the room, which is AI. And what are your thoughts? I know that it's, it's scary for a lot of us that this technology is coming. And so what is your position on behalf of PANA in regards to let's say the evolution of AI and AI narrators? Emily: Well, we are a pro-narrator organization, pro-human narrator. Anne: Sure. Emily: And so we are dedicated to supporting human narrators however we can. We have a lot of ideas about how to address this, but I think the board has expressed our first priority to be education, because I think that a lot of narrators don't really understand all of the possible risks right now. I think it's wonderful that you're doing this, you know, you're, series to educate people. Um, but I think that we have a task ahead of us just to make sure that people fully understand -- Anne: yeah. Emily: -- what everything is. Like -- Anne: Sure. Emily: -- for example, a lot of people don't understand the difference between creating an artificial voice, like a clone of someone, and machine learning, which I don't know if you've covered in your series, but that's a really big thing that people need to be aware of. Anne: Yeah. Emily: So we have a lot of ideas about how to address that first and foremost, but also I think, you know, a lot of people -- just today I was seeing on Facebook, people posting like, oh, I listened to this, and it's actually not that terrible and blah, blah, blah. And so I think that it's important that we stay ahead of the game. You know, we can't let the robots catch up to us. We have to stay better. But also I think that, I mean, for me personally, this is not like PANA's official position or anything, but me personally, I think that a lot of the conversation is revolving around like dollars and cents. You know, publishers and whoever are going to do what makes the most economic sense to them. And if it's cheaper, consumers will follow suit. And there's just, it's kind of all about money and jobs and the things that general AI conversations are about. Anne: Yeah. Emily: But I think that with our field, it's not only about our jobs, it's also about the art of storytelling. Anne: Sure. Emily: Something that -- Anne: Agreed. Emily: -- I mean verbal storytelling is as old as language. It's like, we've been doing it as humans for forever. And that's, I mean, to me, that's what's at stake here. Like, yes, I would like to have a job. I would like to be able to do what I love to do for the rest of my life. But I'm equally as worried about, you know, the power of literature and stories and what it means to have, you know, just from like a moral, ethical standpoint to have robots sharing the human experience that they literally can't understand because they're an algorithm. And so I think that that is something that needs to be more part of the conversation for everyone, because what we do is an art. Anne: Sure, absolutely. Emily: And even if a robot is possible, it can never actually express anything human. And I think that that's important to me. Anne: Right. I agree with you. And I think that the consuming public has a lot to say, obviously, right? We are a market-driven kind of industry. What the consumer wants, right, or is it marketable to consumers or is it not? I mean, do consumers want to be able to listen to an audiobook and have a human? Like, is it meaningful to have a human or maybe for certain types of audiobooks, does it matter if it's a human or not? There's so many questions about that. Is there any type of book that you feel might be okay with something that's not human? Emily: Um, no, personally I don't because -- Anne: Well, and that makes complete sense. Emily: I mean, sure. I mean, obviously I have a certain point of view, but I think, you know, a lot of people are saying, oh, well, it's more suited for non-fiction. I think that that's kind of insulting, like -- Anne: Yeah, yeah. Emily: -- yes non-fiction does not involve character voices and things like that. Anne: Right. Emily: So from that perspective, it's easier for a robot to do, but I don't know, I've narrated nonfiction too. It's every bit as human. I think that authors would generally be insulted to hear that like, nonfiction is less human than fiction. I mean, I think it's all part of the human experience. Anne: Sure. Emily: It's all part of something that human beings have spent hours or months or years putting together. And they deserve a human voice to express that. Anne: Well, and you're talking to, you know, my specialty corporate narration and e-learning, so I understand that completely. I mean, to me, I mean, I want there to be a human teacher behind the mic. Emily: Sure. Anne: I want there to be, you know, I'm a company, I want there to be a human that's expressing my mission statement or my objective. And again, it comes to people responding and saying, well, you know, it's what the market wants. Or I guess for me, if I'm just one little person, me, I'm not going to necessarily stop the progression of technology. And so in terms of how I need to, I guess, evolve or work with technology that's, that may be encroaching on, let's say genres that I, you know, specialize in, I have to try to think of it in terms of, okay. So are there certain types that might be okay? A lot of times, you know, it's like, why do consumers go to outlets like the -- Fiverr, right, to get their voiceover? Because they don't have a value necessarily, or they don't -- Emily: Sure. Anne: -- or they have a certain value associated with that job. So could this not be the future lower end of -- Emily: Yeah. Lower budget production -- Anne: -- consumer -- yeah, lower budget. Emily: I mean, look, there are already people who are driven by money, you know -- Anne: Yup, yup. Emily: -- want the cheapest product, and they're hiring brand new narrators on indie platforms -- Anne: Yup. Emily: -- for like a quarter of the standard rate -- Anne: Right. Emily: -- or less, you know? Like those people already exist. Will those people start doing robots instead? Anne: Yeah. Emily: Maybe. Anne: Yeah. Emily: You know, who can stop that? Anne: Yeah, exactly. Emily: But I think yes, that is a concern because the more artificially narrated audiobooks that are put in the market, the more consumers get used to it, the harder it is -- Anne: Yeah. Emily: -- to argue our position. Anne: Exactly. Yeah. Emily: It's all concerning. I do agree that there's a certain element that I don't know how much control we have, but I also think that there will always be an element of high budget productions -- Anne: Yes. Emily: -- that will always have a human narrator. Anne: Oh, I completely agree with you. I mean, I don't think that there's ever going to be -- and I'm a tech girl. I worked in technology for 20 years. I do believe that there's always, there's always going to be a place for the human still in voiceover. And I think that narrators that have been for years, you know, telling stories and audiobooks, I mean, that is a level of acting that cannot be reached right now by any type of AI voice. Emily: Oh no. Anne: And I don't know that the public wants -- Emily: No. Anne: -- to be, necessarily feel like they've been duped either. Emily: Sure. Anne: So if they're listening to an audiobook, and they think it might be a human, so I think it's all speculation right now trying to figure out how -- like how long will it take? How far will it go and how human will it sound? And I guess my argument has always been well, humans are developing it. So I think you will always have those people that want to take it to the point where, oh my gosh, is this a deepfake? They'll always try to get there. But I like to think that technology is good inherently, and that because humans are developing technology, it will develop to a point that will help humans and not necessarily take them down or, you know, erase an industry. So I do believe that there will always be a space for a human actor in voiceover. I just don't know how far the AI will go in five to ten years, let's say,. Emily: Sure. But I will say that -- okay. So the way that these algorithms work, right, is that they find the middle ground, right? So they'll always be passible. They'll never be award worthy. Right? They're never going to take acting risks. They're never going to be able to, I mean, unless they have an engineer sit there and like tweak them for every moment, at which case, like just have a voice actor do it. Anne: Well, yeah. Sometimes there is a lot of tweaking involved, that's for sure. Emily: Yeah. So it's like, they'll just, they'll never be able to cry. You know, they'll never really be able to make a listener cry or feel that connected because they're not connected. You know, they're an algorithm. So they'll make the baseline choice, the easy, safe choice, because that's, you know, when you're talking about machine learning or it's studying thousands and thousands and thousands of performances, no two narrators are the same. We wouldn't make the same choices on the same book. So they're going to pick the baseline, which I think means that it will never be as good, no matter what, inherently it'll never be as good as the best narrators. So that's why we need to make all narrators, or at least narrators who want to make a living doing this, the best that they can be, because I don't think machines can ever really, truly catch up with anything that is off the cusp and beautiful and you know, like human, and they'll never be that. Anne: What if -- now here's my what if, because I do know of technology called speech-to speech where it can mimic. So what about an actor who, you know, has great acting skills, and they can act a baseline model, right? And then other voices can be applied on top of that. I mean, it's scary. I've heard it. Emily: Basically have a human narrate the book, but then put someone else's voice on their performance? Anne: Yeah, that is a mimic. So that would make it sound pretty much human, but with somebody else's voice or maybe with a different language. Emily: Well, I mean, if you're doing that, at least that actor is getting paid to do it -- Anne: Right. Emily: -- because they'd have to custom record that book. Anne: Exactly. Emily: Um, so that's, uh, a less scary proposition to me. Anne: Yeah, yeah. Emily: But um, yeah, I mean, I guess that's a possibility. I think the -- what we're more concerned about or most concerned about anyway, is machine learning, which will completely replace humans entirely. So like right now, most of the AI voices are licensed, where it's basically like they have somebody sit in a studio for a few days, and then from there they extrapolate whatever texts they want to be able to put on that person's habits. But machine learning would be like, they can listen to the thousand most popular in audiobooks and narrators of all time and sort of create an algorithm based out of that. Anne: Yes. Emily: And they'll never have to license. They'll never have to pay a single human for that. I think that's the biggest fear is completely taking us out of the equation. I think when it comes to licensing your voice or what you just mentioned, where it's like you record the book and then they put some celebrity's voice on it or something, I mean, personally, I am against those things. But I can see why some people might feel like there's more wiggle room in those. Again, that is not my personal opinion. I want to stop all of this, nip this on the bud. But if we're at a point where it's like, that's all that's left to us, at least there are still humans involved. Anne: Yeah. Well, and I think, again, if we're thinking about how we can evolve with it, if, if that becomes part of it, and I do know that that technology exists. I don't know at this point -- you've got people, you've got other companies that are not voiceover that are creating this technology. So how can we work with those companies or do we choose not to work with those companies right, in order to -- Emily: Sure. Anne: -- stay ahead, right? Is that a possibility? Emily: Um, okay. My personal feeling is I don't support anyone doing that because, and I have more to say, but like, because I feel like that's just kind of giving in. It's, you know, you get a sum of money, which is enough for a few years, and you're basically giving up your whole career in trade, and the careers of all of your colleagues, because how many of those, how many people's voices are they really going to need to license? So ultimately, and I understand that everyone's situation is different and, you know, I shouldn't judge, but ultimately it's a very self-serving decision to do that. And so I personally, and this is my personal opinion, don't feel like I can support those things. However, if someone's going to do it, I think there's a lot of important ways to protect yourself and to protect others in the industry. So I know that our union is working on licensing agreements that would be union. As far as I know, every one of these that I've heard of or seen advertisements for or whatever is non-union. And there's a reason for that. It's because they're taking advantage of people who are vulnerable. Anne: Sure. Emily: And they're taking advantage of people who need the money and who think, oh my gosh, a year's salary for a few days in the booth? Of course, I'm going to do that. Not realizing or not thinking through the consequences. You know, there's a reason that they don't want these contracts to be union because the union would want to, for example, limit how many times that person's voice can be used. Can they make a hundred audiobooks from that person's voice versus a thousand or a million from the same person's voice? You know, they're going to try to put limits on it to make it more equitable and spread it out. And these companies don't want to do that. There was no advantage to them for doing that. And then there's other things like, well, I've talked a bunch about machine learning, which if people don't know, I really highly recommend looking into it. But if you license your voice, and there's no provision in your contract which says that they can't use that for machine learning, they can take that voice and not only use it for clone or whatever, but they can use it to create a totally synthetic voice that they'll never have to pay anyone a dime for. You know, there's a lot of risks, and that's part of why we want to do an educational series is if you're going to do this, which I personally strongly recommend and hope that you won't, but if you will, please at least be smart about it. You know, there are companies involved like, you know, Google and whatever that have really deep pockets, and they can offer the kind of money that a lot of people would have a really hard time turning down. But you also have to remember that there's a lot more at stake here than your wallet or even your career. Um, so we just, if you're going to do it, you have to be smart about it and you have to read those contracts with a fine tooth comb. Anne: So I totally, totally understand all of that. Absolutely. What about the possibility of, as an organization, having a voice and going to these companies and saying -- I want to say it's like in the video gaming industry, when musicians would create music for video games, fighting for their creative licensing rights. What about that sort of thing? Like, and I understand, I mean, Google and you know that a lot of the big companies have a lot of voices already, not even voice actors, right? Just voices -- Emily: Right, yeah. Anne: -- that they're using to learn, right. They're using to put into machine learning and learn and test and create other voices. If as an organization, you could be a strong voice in saying, hey, you know what, anybody's voice that's used really you should be asking permission. There should be compensation. There should be -- Emily: Right. Anne: -- you know -- Emily: We should be getting royalties. Anne: Right, exactly. Emily: You know, like with any contract, you should have a limited period of time -- Anne: Exactly. Emily: -- where you can -- Anne: Exactly. Emily: You can't license in perpetuity, you should get six months or whatever, you know, like, I totally agree. That's part of why, if these contracts are going to happen, they should be union. Anne: Yeah. Emily: And that's why they don't -- they don't want to give us that, they don't. Um, they just want to give us a sum of money that is like an absolute fraction of what we would deserve for doing that kind of work. Anne: I have spoken with some companies who say that they are not those companies. You know, they say that they are for -- Emily: Well, of course they say -- Anne: Well, okay. But that's the thing though, is that, do you assume that all companies are not ethical? You know what I mean, in this game? Emily: I think honestly, I think any company doing this nonunion and not offering the protections and the compensation that any actor doing this deserves it, I don't think that's ethical. This is my personal opinion. I'm not speaking for PANA. Anne: Oh, no, no. Emily: I don't think it's ethical to offer a desperate actor a year salary and have their voice in perpetuity to use -- Anne: I agree. Emily: -- for whatever you want. You know? Anne: I agree with that. And I totally agree with that. And I think that that is absolutely where voice actors need to, you know, they need to be aware of these things that, you know, these companies that are for TTS. For me, that's a big red flag. And if you have a contract or you have a company that wants to pay you for, you know, 3000 lines of whatever, I absolutely believe that you should have a lawyer on that. Um, I say I would not take the job. However, if you go to these AI companies, I'm going to say independently and, you know, and try to work with them, or if there's an organization that can be on a board -- there is an organization right now that is working towards policies and legal contracts that will be in protection of the voice acting community. So I feel like there could be power in that as well. Emily: Sure. Anne: And especially from the audiobook narrators industry as well, because you guys are a -- you're a large community, and you have strong voices, and you work closely with the union. And I think that that is a wonderful thing. And I think that if you can get in on the ground floor of those usage policies, which everybody should have, right? And then, you know, ultimately, you know, fight the good fight hopefully so that the companies now understand, because I think in my research, I'm just going to say, there's a lot of AI companies out there that don't understand the voice acting industry. They don't understand like I actually had to say, no, there's usage. There's -- Emily: Right. Anne: -- you know, there's usage here for how long. And we have contracts that, you know, we can't use our voice for this company, because we're already committed to this company. Emily: Sure. Anne: And there's a lot of education, not just for us, but -- Emily: But for them. Anne: -- on their side as well. And I think that if you have a strong community of voices, that might be something to consider. Like you said, education, maybe education for AI companies as well. Emily: Sure. I -- Anne: Yeah. Emily: -- I would certainly be open to that. Anne: Yeah. Emily: And another one that we haven't mentioned, but that is definitely a concern, at least for me, would be having some sort of limitations on the content that they -- Anne: Yes, absolutely. Emily: -- could use voices for. Anne: Yup, yup. Emily: Like for example, you know, I'm, I'm Jewish. Anne: Yup. Emily: I would be horrified if my voice was used to narrate Nazi propaganda. Anne: Yup. Emily: You know, like that's just -- so I think any, any contract that is like in perpetuity with no limitations is unethical to me -- Anne: Yup. Emily: -- because that's just not how it should work. Anne: Oh yeah. Emily: Am I -- Anne: I agree. Emily: Am I open to working with AI companies to create a more equitable compensation system? Personally I think that that's SAG-AFTRA's job. If I ever hear of an AI company actually having union agreements with SAG-AFTRA, I would feel more kindly towards that AI company. I have yet to hear of that. I would potentially be open to that kind of effort, but honestly, I feel like that's putting the cart before the horse. I don't think we should give up the fight yet. I think we have enough good arguments and resources on our side to not necessarily have to get to that point yet. Anne: Okay. Well, I think that you've definitely got some strong arguments there, and I, I have also been in the forums and I hear what people say, and I understand. I myself have done so much research, probably a little bit more with the companies maybe than others, which is the only reason I bring up the point that there are companies who say that they are ethical and say that they will, you know, your license or your voice belongs to you. It's licensed to you. We will not use it in our machine learning, right? Only with your permission and only if you are compensated fairly, so. Emily: I mean, that's good. Good on those companies. Anne: Yeah. Well, I'm hoping that more companies will, with things, you know, with the unfortunate, but actually now fortunate episode that happened to -- maybe not fortunate. I don't know if I would call it that, but that happened with Bev Standing, right, with her suit against TikTok and the fact that it got settled, it does set a precedent. And so it's unfortunate sometimes that bad things have to happen in order for, right, resulting policies and standards and laws to come into play. You know, the whole thing with the Anthony Bourdain movie, right? Why resurrecting a voice without the permission? I think that there are bad things that happen. However, good things can come out of it afterwards in order to build laws. And I think that that's kind of where we might be in this crazy world of AI. And it seems like AI has just sprung up in the last couple of years like crazy. Emily: Sure. Anne: So I do believe after my research, for me, I think it comes to educating the companies, the AI companies about us and about what we need and about what our rights should be as actors. And I, I'm hoping that my involvement in this podcast is going to also have a voice that can help affect that. And so that they will see that we do need to license our voice. We do need to be fairly compensated. And, you know, I can only hope that my little part in it has something to do with maybe getting things the way that would be fair and equitable to us. Emily: Sure. I mean, I hope that, I hope that your efforts are successful. I do think that, I would like to think that these companies are just unaware or something. Anne: Yeah, yeah. Emily: And I'm sure some of them are, but I also think that some of them are very clever. Anne: Yeah, of course. Emily: And I know there are, for example, I can think of certain companies in the audiobook world who say, well, we won't -- they are clever in the way that they deceive people. You know, they'll say, well, we're not using our data to clone your voice, but they won't say that they're not using the data for machine learning or other things, you know? Like, and I think that, because I think that if we could get companies to do union contracts, that would certainly order it, you know, equivalent. That would certainly be a step forward. But I also think that educating voice actors to understand all of this stuff -- because it is complicated -- Anne: Sure. Emily: - and it's not necessarily natural to a lot of people. I think that's important too, because like right now there are companies where we're -- actors and publishers are literally giving data to and not really recognizing how it could be used. Anne: Agreed, agreed. Emily: And so that's a problem. Anne: I think we always have though, you know what I mean? I'm going to say long before this AI craziness, I think also, you know, there have been devices that have been listening to us and capturing our voices for a long time now. Emily: Sure. Anne: And so it's, I think it's good that we all are educated on it. And I just wanna give a shout-out to the organization, which I'm a part of, and anybody, if you're interested in joining them, it's called the Open Voice Network, which is based on creating standards for anything voice. And there are some companies who create AI voices that are in this organization, but it's all for the good of the voiceover world as well, to make sure that we are fairly compensated and hopefully, you know, we have a set of standards that can work for everyone. So that's openvoicenetwork.org. Maybe that's something that, you know, uh, BOSSes out there, you want to take a look at. I love, love, love what you're doing with PANA. I mean, thank you really. It's, I know how hard it is to bring an organization up and get these things going and moving and being productive. So congratulations to you guys. I think it's an amazing thing you're doing for the audiobook community, and I think it's wonderful what you're doing. Emily: Thank you. Anne: Yeah, yeah. Emily: Appreciate that. Anne: So tell us how people can find out more about your organization and you? Emily: Sure. Uh, pronarrators.org is our website. We are @pronarrators on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter, and I'm Emily Lawrence. And you can find me at emilylawrence.com. Anne: Fantastic. Thank you so much, Emily, for spending time with us today. BOSSes, go check out pronarrators.org. Thanks again so much for joining us. I'm going to give a great big shout-out to our sponsor ipDTL. You too can connect and network like a BOSS. Find out more ipdtl.com, and we'll see you guys next week. Thanks so much. Bye! Emily: Bye. >> Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voboss.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.

Bienvenidos al podcast con Anne Ganguzza y Pilar Uribe! In this episode, your hosts cover how creating a great demo can get you booked without auditioning, the versatility of having multiple demos, and how being kind to everyone you meet is really the most underrated marketing technique… Transcript >> It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Pilar: Hola, BOSS Voces. Bienvenidos al podcast con Anne Ganguzza y Pilar Uribe. Anne: Hey everyone. Welcome to the VO BOSS podcast. I'm your host Anne Ganguzza, and I'm happy to welcome back with me as special guest cohost Pilar Uribe. Pilar, how are you today? Pilar: I'm doing great, Anne. ¿Tú cómo estás? Anne: I don't know. Sí. Pilar. Just say bien, just say bien. Anne: Bien, bien. Pilar: Bien covers it all. Anne: Everybody will follow my own journey as I learn Spanish. Thank you. And I learned to be as -- the best bilingual voice artist I can be, but let me talk about another language, another language of love which it comes from my VO studio kitty Sebrina today. I noticed, Pilar, you know how animals, they have that sense. When you're a cat lover and a cat lover walks into my home, my cats know it. And I have to tell you that my little Sebrina, who is the most sociable of the three VO studio cats that I have, she's usually the first one that will come down and greet people, if she feels that they are sufficient -- Pilar: Worthy. Anne: -- cat lovers. Yes. Pilar: If they're worthy of her attention. Anne: So I have to tell you that the last two times we've been recording, she has been scratching at my studio door, and she just doesn't do that. And I know, I know that she hears you because I have inside and outside headphones. And so what I hear here in my headphones in the booth are also kind of projecting outside my booth through my headphones. So I know she hears you. There's no other reason to explain why she's scratching at the door. Pilar: Oh, I love that. Anne: Like she must hear your voice. Pilar: That's so cute. Anne: She must hear your voice. And she must know that there's yet another cat lover with me, and she's scratching to get into the studio. Pilar: And she knows there's a possible suitor right outside. Anne: That's right. Exactly. Pilar: Paco. Oh yeah. Anne: Paco. Yes, she probably feels it. I'm telling you. Pilar: They know, they know these things. They know. Anne: They do. They know everything. Wow. Pilar: We're just their, their custodians. They're the ones who rule. Anne: Exactly. So I had to tell you that story, you know, because we share, we share a love for studio cats, for sure. Pilar: So I can say, I can give a little shout out. Hola Sebrina, ¿cómo estás? Anne: Oo. She's going to hear the scratching soon. I'm telling you. So we had a great conversation on our last podcast about being a bilingual voice talent and what it takes to, I guess, be successful in the industry. And I want to continue that to go a little bit more in detail. So if there are beginners out there or people just entering into the industry that want to market themselves as a bilingual voice talent, what are the steps that it would take for them to do so successfully? First of all, I think you must have some sort of a demo, right, that showcases that you have this talent. What are your thoughts about a demo and how you can successfully market yourself as bilingual through your demo or not, or what works for you? Pilar: Okay. So since I started out in the world of voiceover without any like really any information -- I mean in the world of dubbing, that's what I meant -- they knew I spoke English, they knew I spoke Spanish, so I could do both. And I just kind of jumped in. I did not have a voiceover agent until I got to Los Angeles. So I had to get my own work. And that meant a lot of knocking on doors, talking to other actors and saying, okay, where are you, where are you working? What studios are you working in? And there aren't that many in Miami. Anne: And you're talking physical knock. I'm just going to clarify this -- Pilar: Oh yeah. Anne: -- you mean like physically networking with other people, which today really translates into online, right? Maybe -- Pilar: Yes. Anne: -- groups and online, online networking groups. But yeah, you had to physically become a good networker. Pilar: Yes. Thank you for telling me that, because, because I don't even realize. I think it's interesting because you know, you get to a place -- you know, I'm talking to you here. I earned my living doing this and it's, it's really, when you go back, and I'm looking at my, my past, everyone thinks, oh, oh, she's doing this. She has it all. Oh, it's oh, it's like really easy. Look at her. And every single step that you make is, it's like, you're climbing up the mountain, and then you slide back down and then you climb up the mountain, and you slide back down a little bit. Anne: Yeah. Pilar: And it's a lot of walking -- Anne: You claw your way up the mountain. Pilar: -- you, you literally crawl your way up the mountain. My, um, my ex mother-in-law, God bless her, told me one time when I was learning something many, many years ago, she said as much as you may learn and then fall back, and, and if you're, if it's another language or if it's a new profession, you're never going to be at the point where you don't know anything. Once you start learning, you can't say you don't know anything because you actually know something now about that subject. And I, that's just something that I've always taken with me. Anne: Yeah, that's a cool perspective. Yup. Pilar: Because the more I learn -- yeah, right? Because the more I learn, the more I realize, oh, okay. I don't know about so much more. Anne: Exactly. Pilar: But there's other stuff that I do know now. So I just, I kind of bring it all. You know, my, my little lump of knowledge gets bigger and bigger. And so when I first started dubbing, as I said in a couple, couple episodes before, I just, it was luck that I got the job, but it was because I had been auditioning so many times before for these different studios -- no, excuse me, for this one studio. Anne: But was it really luck, Pilar? If I ask you to think that back, was it really luck? Because you had really been working, uh, networking with people and getting to know people, and I'll tell you, the first rule of marketing is people buy from people they know, like, and trust. And so I think you might've been establishing that relationship in working in those studios when they said, you know what? We need somebody to do this dubbing job. And boom, guess who's top of mind? There you are. Just a thought. Pilar: Okay, for those VO voces, those BOSS Voces who are listening to Anne for the first time, you got to go take classes with this woman, because she's completely turning my story around. And I'm sitting there, like my brains are like going, whaat? Anne: I love it. You're a marketer. It's so funny, the parallels, right? Pilar: I don't even know how I did it, but you're basically showing me all this stuff that I did without me even realizing it. So thank you for that. Anne: Well, it's cool because we, we get to work it backwards now because now -- Pilar: Yes. Anne: -- people just entering in the business, are they networking online? How are they networking? And maybe they should consider all versions of networking because it all helps you, you know, to get where you need to go. Pilar: We're doing it, we're doing reverse engineering. Anne: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Pilar: So reverse engineering a lot of the times means, and again, I'm not saying I do this, but when I have an interaction with somebody, I always keep them in my mind, and I send them an email, and I let them know what I'm doing. Because a lot of the time -- it's, it's basically being and not stalking them and not being obnoxious about it, but so they know that you're around. You know, for so many months before I actually got my first dubbing gig, I didn't get any response. And the same thing happened when I, when, when I started working for NPR. I didn't hear anything for months and months and months. And what I realized is that marketing is always the long game. Anne: Isn't it? Ugh, yes. Pilar: It's, it's the long game -- Anne: That's it, we can go home now Pilar, because that was, that was the wisdom, that nugget of wisdom. It is, it's a long game. So many people want that instant result. Pilar: Yeah, because we have, we're exposed to instant gratifications through our cell phones, through our laptops. Anne: Yup. Pilar: And what it is is that it's basically putting a tiny grain of sand into the atmosphere and letting it go there. It might come back. It might not, but every single time you do it, you're sending the energy out of, I'm a voiceover artist. I can do this for you. Anne: Yeah, absolutely. Pilar: And eventually that does come back. Anne: Yes. Pilar: So I get my first gig and then I'm thinking, okay, I want more. So then I start asking questions. I started asking my actor friends and like, oh, you're with this studio. How do you get into this studio? And it turns out that the person who recommended me to work in the first studio is also now working part-time in the second studio. So I call him up and I say, hey, you know, what's going on? And they're like, oh, okay, well, I don't really have anything for you now, but maybe. So I was like, okay, great. And then, boom. Maybe I make a call or maybe he calls me again. And then the chain starts happening. So that's really what it became. So at one point I was working for four different studios and, you know, making these connections and then slowly but surely. So then you reach a point, right? I want more. So then I go into the audiobook world, and I start doing that. And then a big part of my, my voiceover journey was Fafcon because -- Anne: Yup. Pilar: -- I went and that's -- Anne: Networking. Pilar: -- when I experienced. Yeah. That's when I experienced, I was like, oh, these people actually make a living at it full-time, because I'm sitting here running around, you know, with four different studios. Anne: Sure. Pilar: And I'm sure trying to deal with the whole audiobook thing. And, and they're like, oh no, we have our clients. We have our IVR. We have our people who call us up every so often. And we, and I'm like, oh, that's a new concept. And I had no idea about this part of the business. Anne: You were learning about now these are all different genres. You were just doing dubbing -- Pilar: Yes. Anne: -- and then you started with the audiobooks. Interesting about the audiobooks. And I'm going to say that might've been a few years back, right? There was no ACX back then, right? So -- Pilar: No, actually I started with ACX. Anne: Oh, you did? Okay. Pilar: So, so it was more recent. Anne: Oh, okay, so it was recent then. Pilar: 2012. Anne: Oh, okay. Pilar: They had just started 2013. They had -- Anne: Still that's a -- Pilar: -- they hadn't been around that long. Anne: -- that's a while. Yeah. That's a while. That was when they just started, I believe. So, okay. And right there for audiobooks, that was kind of a, a cool thing because it was online, and you didn't have to necessarily have a demo to present. They were basically just offering you work and you could audition and not necessarily have to present a demo to get work there. Pilar: Exactly. So I, again, not knowing anything that was back in the day when audiobooks were done in studios. Anne: Yes, yes. Pilar: So the publishing companies had their own studios, and you know, the big guys on campus went and they recorded there. Anne: Exactly, exactly. Now, were you doing, were you doing Spanish or were you doing both English and Spanish? Pilar: I was doing both. Actually I started out doing English, doing these like really funny romance things. And then I went the other way with Spanish and started doing religious things because somebody asked me to do religious stuff, and this was, and so here's where networking comes in. You never know. You just never know who is going to be somebody who's a valued contact. That's why, and I'll, I'll tell this story really quickly, and so I don't lose my place about this. When I was working as an extra on "One Life to Live," there was this guy, and I, and I may have mentioned it. And I remember him saying so clearly that he said, you have to be nice to everybody on set. You know, we were just all looking at him like with stars in our eyes because he was so good-looking, and he was just like, you know, he was a series regular. And he said, be nice to everybody. And I never forgot that. So when I went to Colombia, I was very aware that I needed to treat the producer and the director exactly the same as the coffee lady, because the coffee lady, the person who brought me coffee, and that was her only job, she was just as important -- Anne: Oh yeah. Pilar: -- as the producer. Anne: Absolutely. Pilar: You know, it's a courtesy thing. It's a human interaction thing. And I've always been very, very aware of that. But that experience -- Anne: Yeah. Pilar: -- that I had on the set from somebody who was, you know, making, you know, a good amount of money to talk to us who we were just like these little star struck extras was really important. Anne: See, it's not just a life lesson, right, but a business lesson to be nice to everyone. It's like be nice to the person that picks up the phone. You may think you want to talk -- Pilar: Exactly. Anne: -- to the boss, but in reality, it all starts with the person who answers the phone or gets you the coffee. You never know. Pilar: You never know where that person's going to be. So -- Anne: Exactly. Pilar: -- fast forward to when I would do voiceover dubbing at this one studio, one of the engineers was, he was just such a sweet guy, and we got along really well. And he was so pleasant and jovial. And, you know, whenever he would ask me to do another take, I always did. And you know, if I thought that I could do it better, he would let me do it. You know, if it was just like a little kind of an alteration in, in the way I inflected in my voice. And he said, hey, would you be interested in doing audio books in Spanish? And I was like, sure. And you know, afterwards we spoke, and I did quite a few for him. And, you know, he said, I don't ask everyone this because obviously people can, you know, he, he gets different responses. Anne: Sure. Pilar: And so that's why I, I want to emphasize the importance of being really pleasant and nice and courteous to everyone. 'Cause you just, you just never know. And I, I did like four books with him, and that was just something on the side that I did. And I wouldn't have done that otherwise, if I had been like, you know, a bitch on wheels going to the studio. Anne: And you know what's so interesting though -- let me just try to relate this to today in an online community, when you're communicating with people online and especially in these groups where you think it might be a closed group where you're only talking to voice actors, be nice to everyone, because there are people sitting there watching you, and reading those comments, and making judgements about your comment, if it's not nice, or maybe it's not becoming of a professional. They're watching and you never know who might be looking or listening behind the scenes. So be nice to everyone. I think it's just a wonderful thing to live by. Right? Just be nice to everyone. Be nice. Pilar: I totally agree with that, Anne, and, and I would go even further because I was listening to somebody about this. When you're on Zoom, you know, it doesn't cost anything to smile. Anne: True, so true. Pilar: It really doesn't. Anne: Yeah. Pilar: You can just, you can just be pleasant, and you can have a nice sort of energy to you. I mean, I know we're always in sweats, and it just it's become a way of life. And we're probably going to be doing this for a long time, but there's a certain energy you bring when you come into a Zoom meeting. You know, you can either slouch and you can just be like, uh, you know, and we've all heard them. Everybody on -- Anne: Yeah. Pilar: -- listening to this podcast has heard people who are just like these Nagging Nellies I guess, or the complainers. Anne: Debbie Downers, Pilar: Debbie Downers. Debbie Downers. It's like, oh yeah, I'm I'm in voiceover, but I -- Anne: But I can't. Pilar: -- but I don't have a demo yet. And I haven't -- Anne: I can't do this. Pilar: -- gotten any work in six months. It's like really, really? Are you kidding? Then why are you even here? Anne: Yeah. Pilar: You know, it's like, hey, I want to learn. I don't know anything about, oh, I don't know. Let's say you're doing, um, let's say a demo. You want to learn how to do a demo -- Anne: Video games or something. Pilar: No, I'm thinking of, you know, those slot machine things? Anne: Oh, casinos. Pilar: Casinos. They're, they're actually, now that's a new genre that I heard about. Anne: Yeah, exactly. Pilar: I was like, oh my gosh. Anne: Casinos and gaming. Yes. That kind of gaming. Pilar: Casinos and -- yeah. Anne: Yup. Pilar: So it's like, let's say you go in, and you don't know anything about it. Well, hey, you're here to learn. I'm here to learn about casino and gaming. Yay. This is something new. So it's like, I feel like you can always put your best foot forward because it doesn't cost you anything. Anne: Yeah. You can always learn, and you can always learn. Pilar: Yeah. Exactly. You can always learn. So -- Anne: You can always learn something. Pilar: Yeah. Anne: Even if you're like, oh, I don't know. Like I didn't like this class or -- that's the teacher in me that says, you know, if you're a good student, you can learn anywhere, anywhere. Pilar: Yup. Anne: There's always an opportunity to learn. Pilar: I totally agree. So back to the guy. So I did these four books with him, and somewhere along the way -- so I, I didn't have an audiobook demo. I had a bunch of audio book samples 'cause that's what you do. Anne: Yup. Pilar: And the experience at Fafcon, which was just so enriching. And I met some amazing people that I'm still friends with today, I realized everybody was like, oh yeah, the demo this, the demo that. I was like, why in the world do you need a demo? And then after I'd gotten all this information, and then I went home ,and I looked at all, everybody's website that I had met. And I was like, oh, this is our industry's equivalent of a resume. Anne: Yeah, absolutely. Pilar: That's basically very simple and quick and dirty explanation. You have to have a demo. So anybody going online, anybody who's considering you -- I just did a session yesterday, and I had a certain kind of demo for this 'cause -- I can't talk about it because obviously it -- now every -- you sign NDAs, wherever you go. Anne: Absolutely. Pilar: Um, so I auditioned for this company, and then they said, oh yeah -- he said, so he started talking about the style that he wanted for what we were doing. And he said, yes. And I, from your audition, but especially from your demos. Anne: That's excellent. Pilar: I was like, oh, okay. This guy did his homework. Anne: Yeah. Pilar: This guy really looked at my stuff before choosing me, which means that's why my demos have to be in order. Anne: Absolutely. I'm so glad you said that because there are some people who think that you cannot book off of your demo. And I, I am in disagreement with that because I do believe that people that are doing their homework that are out -- they're searching online. If your demos are sitting there on your website, people listen to them. And I get requests all the time, you know, hey, I love -- can you do the voice in that spot, on your demo, in this particular spot that you're referencing? So I will get people. I know they've listened to the demo and I've booked. Pilar: In 2020, I booked a year long campaign. I basically paid my rent and then some. Anne: From a demo. Pilar: From a demo. I did not audition. I didn't audition for. And I was like, wait a minute. Don't you need? And they were like, no, no. The agent, 'cause I'm so -- I was such a newbie, he was like, no, no, you don't need to audition. I mean, he literally said that to me. No, you idiot. They're booking you off the demo. And, and actually yeah, through my agent, I book off my demo all the time. So it's, I get people will request it because they've listened to the demos. So -- Pilar: Right. Anne: -- I mean, of course I audition too, like everybody else, but I do book a considerable amount off of my demos. Pilar: In terms of specifically a bilingual demo, what I did, what I noticed, first I, and I did what everybody does. The, the very first demo I did, I basically just did my spots. That's what I did, you know? 'Cause I, I didn't know any better, so I, okay. I've got a bunch of spots and let me, you know, hook it all together. And I actually got somebody who did it for, you know -- Anne: So for your bilingual demo, right? You -- Pilar: No, for my first demo. Anne: Okay. First demo, you strung together spots that you had created. Okay. Pilar: Yeah, exactly, because, you know, that's what you do when you're starting out, and there's nothing wrong with that. But then when I went to Fafcon and I realized, oh, these people actually had this professionally done, you know, the skeptic in me said, oh, come on, really? Why in the world would you need that? And I realized, because that's how it happens in this particular business. It may not happen any in any other business, but I've seen the reason why I've booked work, and why I need that because that's the way, that's the way it is. I mean -- Anne: Well, I think it also shows -- of course, you can put together a demo of spots that you've done already and lots of people do that. But also I think it can show a range. Maybe you get booked for a lot of -- a particular style of spot or a particular read. And I think a demo can showcase a broader range of acting that you can do. Pilar: Yes. Anne: And that's where I think that it's really advantageous as well as hooking up with someone who is familiar with what's out there and what's -- a good producer or a demo producer that knows what trends are out there, what companies are looking for and can implement that on the demo as well. Pilar: Exactly. You just hit the nail on the head. You need somebody, you need a director. That's what a demo producer is. Anne: Yeah, yeah. Pilar: They know better than you do. So, you know, it's like you go in stages. So at first I thought, oh, I'll do my own demo. And then I realized, no, I need somebody who can direct me because they're going to showcase my voice to the best -- Anne: Yes. Pilar: -- of my ability rather than me trying to figure it out because -- Anne: You're too close to it. Pilar: -- the dirty little secret is that we don't know how we sound -- Anne: That's right. Pilar: -- really and truly. Anne: We're very close. Pilar: We need somebody else. We need somebody else to sit there and tell us, no, no, no, you want the cosmetic read. This is, you know, you want the automotive read. You want the, you know, the Olive Garden read; they're all different. So after that I was like, okay, I'm going to bite the bullet. And I actually did, I had, uh, I did a kind of a double thing because, um, Bob Bergen was teaching a weekend class, and this just kind of came about up in San Francisco. And I had already booked time with Chuck Duran to do my demos because I wanted to go there. This was obviously before, 'cause now you can do it. You don't even, you don't need to -- Anne: You can do it online. Pilar: Yeah. You can do it totally online. But I was like, no, I want it -- and I wanted to go to LA because there was something about it -- Anne: Sure. Well, there's something about the experience of being in a studio too in LA recording a demo that all you have to do is perform. And this is a really wonderful experience. Pilar: Totally. Anne: Yeah. Pilar: So the demo that we did -- so I asked Chuck, I said, you know, I'd really like to do two. I'd like to do one in Spanish and one in English, because I was told don't ever, ever mix them. That was the first thing I was told. So I was like, okay, I'm not going to mix them. So we did it in English and in Spanish. So he did the English copy, and he actually speaks some Spanish. And so then I translated some of them and then we came up with some other things. And so then I had two demos. It was great. Anne: Two identical demos? Pilar: No. Anne: Okay. Pilar: Not identical. Anne: You had different spots in Spanish then? Pilar: Yeah. Some overlapped, but some did not. And you know, he was very strategic about it. So that was, that was, that was fine. Then I realized that I wanted to have a bilingual demo. I was just stubborn. I was like, I want a bilingual demo. Anne: So wait -- Pilar: This is what I want. Anne: So what do you consider a bilingual demo? Do you mean one that is both English and Spanish -- Pilar: Yes. Anne: -- in the same demo? Oh, okay. Pilar: And -- Anne: All right. So you are a bilingual talent that has a separate English demo and a separate Spanish demo. Now a bilingual demo means you're going to have both English and Spanish. Pilar: Yes. Anne: Okay. Pilar: And I have -- if you listen to my bilingual demo, there's a little bit of a, of a little bit of an accent because that's something else that I get all the time. I don't really have an accent in either language. Anne: Speak English with a Spanish accent. Pilar: Yes. All the time. Anne: Okay. Pilar: That's what I get all the time. Anne: Okay. Pilar: So then that became almost a third category, and I did that actually online. Anne: So that's a separate demo or just a separate -- Pilar: That's a separate demo. Anne: Okay. Pilar: That's a separate demo. Anne: All by itself, the English with the Spanish accent -- Pilar: All by itself. The bilingual, yep. Anne: Okay, but let's -- Pilar: But not all of them. Anne: Okay, but -- Pilar: They're not -- so there's English with a Spanish accent. There's English, normal English. And then there's Spanish. They're all mixed in, in that specific bilingual demo. Anne: Okay. Pilar: And so I was told by my -- and so then whatever the agent happened, and they said, no, no, no, we don't want that. We don't want that on. You know, we just want the English and the Spanish. We want it separated. But I tell you, I have booked from that bilingual demo. Anne: Right, which is sitting on your website. Pilar: So -- exactly. And so it's kind of like when you go in, when you walk into a store, not everybody's going to buy the same thing. Anne: Right. Pilar: But you want to have pants, and you want to have a dress -- Anne: Well, people consume -- Pilar: -- and you want to have a jumper. Anne: Yes. People consume your audio differently -- Pilar: Yup. Anne: -- right? Pilar: Right. Anne: Agents will consume or deliver your audio separately, right? Or people that go to an agent website may shop differently than people that get to your website, in which case I like to have everything available on your website because you never know who's shopping. It could be an owner of a small company -- Pilar: Exactly. Anne: -- or it could be a casting director or an agent. And so they're very different buyers because casting agents and talented -- that's what they do for a living eight hours a day, all day long. The owner of the small pizza place, you know, down the road, he doesn't cast voices all day long. He just knows what he hears and he knows what he likes. And so he does a Google search, comes up with your website, right, is bilingual voice talent. Boom. Here's your demo that is sitting there that maybe your agents didn't want to present both ways. And he says, that's it. That's exactly what I need. Pilar: And here's the funny part. And I can't 100% confirm, but I suspect that -- 'cause of course, you know, when I, when I signed, I gave them all the demos. I'm pretty sure that the demo that they heard that booked me that job in 2020 -- it was just like an ongoing thing -- they booked me on the strength of the bilingual demo, where they heard me speak in English and in Spanish at the same time and with an accent. Anne: Yeah, yeah. Pilar: So don't be afraid of the having the accent. So, you know, I run into people all the time. So they, they're Spanish speakers, and they speak with a little bit of an accent. And then there are English speakers who have a little bit of an accent in Spanish, but specifically to the Spanish speakers who speak English, don't be afraid to put different ranges -- Anne: Yeah, yeah. Pilar: -- of your speaking in English, because like Sofía Vergara, she's Colombian. Very nice. She really puts it on thick in, in that, in the, in the whatever it was -- Anne: "Modern Family." Pilar: "Modern Family." She doesn't speak like that all the time. If you listen to her, she puts it on thick in some movies and pulls back, 'cause she knows how to do that. You don't have to have a perfect accent in English or a perfect accent in Spanish either. Anne: Well, you know what's so interesting, and I can see where your agent might say, no, we don't want it mixed. Right? We want one, that's English, one that's Spanish, because traditionally we've moved away from, if you remember in, in narration -- I'm going, I'll make the comparison with narration demos. It used to be a narration demos, you put every genre in there. You had like a documentary style. You had an e-learning, you had a corporate, you had, you know, all different styles of narration. So it became all mixed up into one. And then we became very target specific. And so then it became, okay, you need a separate demo for an explainer, separate demo for corporate narration, separate demo for e-learning. But when you're talking bilingual, you have a client, a customer that may need multiple versions of Spanish speaking language. And so I think when you mix it together in English, English with a Spanish accent, Spanish, you're giving them all of the range that you have in that language. Pilar: Exactly. I -- Anne: And that makes sense to me that that would work for you. Pilar: Yeah. Yeah. And I've, I've had -- I've been in sessions where I speak English with no accent, and they want a run of the copy that way. Then they want a run of the copy with a little bit of an accent, and then they want to run of the copy with a lot of an accent. So I'm giving them three choices because -- Anne: Exactly. Pilar: -- they don't know at the time how they're going to place it for those markets. Anne: Right. And the markets may change. Right? Pilar: Yeah. Anne: The markets may -- Pilar: Exactly. Anne: -- be more localized or, or regionalized, or I think it really just goes with the territory. Now, I guess my question is if they use it multiple times, are they paying you multiple? Pilar: Yeah. Anne: You know, that's what you want to make sure, which is why your agent helps. Pilar: Yes. Anne: And, and -- Pilar: That's where -- Anne: Yeah. Pilar: -- that's where it gets tricky because I've really only been doing the bilingual work this way, to the extent that I've been doing it since I came out to Los Angeles. Anne: Yeah, yeah. Pilar: Usually it was that you either do the spot in English or you do the spot in Spanish, before I had an agent. You know like for example, on the pay-to-plays. Anne: Yep. Pilar: You don't really have, you don't get that oh, let's -- once in a very long while, but mostly it's like, okay, Spanish speaker, Latin American speaker or American speaker. Anne: But if you think about it too, I would imagine the type of customer that would go through an agency or casting director to find a voice, they know the target market of who they're advertising to more so than, let's say, somebody on a pay-to-play. Right? They're just like, oh, I need Spanish. Maybe, that's just my guess, an educated guess because, and they come to the agent because they're much more target specific. It would seem to me that would make sense. Pilar: I agree, because I think that a lot of the times the ad agency is looking for specific markets. So if it's Florida, it's going to be different from -- Anne: Exactly. Pilar: -- Southern California. Anne: Exactly. You're going to need a different Spanish that's in Florida than is in California, which makes a whole lot of sense to me. Wow. Pilar: And it's different than Arizona too. Anne: Yeah. Pilar: So it's like, you're talking totally different markets. Anne: This is so enlightening for me because what's cool is that I have questions for you because I have no real experience with how to market as a bilingual voice talent, because I'm not one. But yet you tell me your experiences, and it's, so it makes so much sense really for every one of us in the voiceover business, how we need to be very target specific. We need to be able to serve the -- our clients and our clients have many different needs, many different demographics, and the better that we can serve them and showcase, right, through our demos, through auditioning, how we can serve that community, then obviously the more chance we have to get the gig, and you know, that's what it's about. Pilar: Yeah. And I, I just to, just to piggyback on that end, let's say you don't speak another language. Well, get your accents ready. Anne: Yeah. Pilar: Because a lot of the times I am called to do with a slight Southern accent or with a British accent. There are tons of things, whether it's the video game world or even commercial copy. So having an ear, developing that ear, looking at YouTube videos, there are tons of YouTube videos -- I think is important to listen for, let's say, a specific regionalism -- Anne: Right. Pilar: -- because you never know what you're going to get in the voiceover. And I think one of the worst things to do is to get an audition and then be scrambling because -- Anne: Absolutely. Pilar: -- you're like, oh my gosh, I don't know how to do this. Anne: Right. Pilar: Let me go look online. How am I going to do this? And then you're just, you're adding all that stuff. It's like -- Anne: Sure. Pilar: -- why not take some time, take a look at it, listen to it, you know, practice, you know? Anne: Well, and let me add the caveat here because of, you know, the climate past couple of years that if the casting specs request a native UK Londoner, then perhaps that's not necessarily something you audition for, if it's in the casting specs. But I think it's important that it starts there. Because again, we want, if people are looking for a native speaker or a native ethnicity, then I think that -- that we should respect those casting specs. And also that's a question, do we do a British accent these days? That's an interesting question. Are we taking away work if we do that, if we're not native? That is -- it's, it's a tough question that I think everybody is kind of wrapping their heads around, what is right in this industry these days? Pilar: So I think that it is very important to distinguish and to be upfront about it because here's the thing. If you present, the person on the other end listening is going to know immediately if you are not a native speaker. Anne: Yeah. Pilar: So, I mean, that's just down the line. So I'm very, I'm very clear on the fact that I say anywhere, I, I, you know, on my resume, whatever, wherever I'm a native speaker in Spanish, I speak French fluently. Anne: Yes. Pilar: So if you drop me in the middle of Paris, I will not starve. I will be able to get myself anywhere. And I'm not -- Anne: I'm so glad you made that distinction. Yes. Pilar: Yeah, I'm not a native speaker because native means I was born there or spent most of my life speaking French, and I haven't. Anne: Right. Pilar: So I can't, I can't say that with any kind of authority. Anne: Right. Pilar: Now in terms of accents, I have run across it. I, it's really more, I run across it much more with video games and especially animation -- Anne: Yes. Pilar: -- where they're going to ask you -- Anne: Yup. They're going to ask you to have an accent. Pilar: -- for a Russian accent. And that's really more of a character -- Anne: Yes. Pilar: -- kind of a situation rather than this is a person of authority -- Anne: Sure, absolutely. Pilar: -- where commercial copy comes in. Anne: But again, that might be, and I'm just thinking, right, that could be come more of a discussion as we move on -- Pilar: Yes. Anne: -- as well. Pilar: Agreed. Yes. Anne: So wonderful thoughts on that, and Pilar, of course, it's always a pleasure. I learn so much on every one of these episodes. Thank you so much. Pilar: Well, you're my marketing guru, so there we go. Anne: Well, hey BOSSes, I'm going to give a great, big shout-out to our sponsor, ipDTL. You too can connect like a BOSS and find out more at ipdtl.com. Have an amazing week, you guys, and we'll see you next week. Bye. Pilar: Hasta la vista, baby. >> Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voboss.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.

Training your ear takes practice - in any language! Anne and Pilar discuss what it's like to approach bilingual voice over in today's VO industry, from understanding culture and dialects to managing translation and delivery styles. Adaptation and observation are key to success as a bilingual talent, and it's important to keep a finely-tuned ear open to understanding language rather than just speaking it. Tune in to hear tips and information from a veteran performer… More at: https://www.voboss.com/bilingual-vo-101 Transcript >> It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Pilar: Hola, BOSS Voces. Bienvenidos al podcast con Anne Ganguzza y Pilar Uribe. Anne: Hey everyone. Welcome to the VO BOSS podcast. I'm your host Anne Ganguzza, and I'm honored today to bring back very special guest co-host to Pilar Uribe. Pilar, how are you today? Pilar: Hola, Anne. Cómo estás? Anne: See, I need to start learning from you. Hola. Hola. So I am so excited to have you on this podcast because first of all, your journey is amazing, and our journeys are always ever evolving, right? And -- Pilar: Yes, oh yes. Oh, absolutely. Constantly. Anne: There's so much that our podcast listeners can learn from you. So I'm, I'm excited to continue that conversation. And I want to talk today about bilingual, what it means to be a bilingual voiceover actor in today's industry. And, you know, back in the day, I grew up in a very small town, and I was never really exposed to anyone that spoke a different language. And my exposure to let's say another language was my high school that said you can take French or Spanish, you know, for as many semesters as you'd like. And so I picked French, which I now think maybe I should have picked Spanish because I feel like that would be really useful to me today. But yeah, I was not exposed -- and it's one thing to be exposed to the language, but I was not really exposed to the culture. And I think it's so important for us to talk about that because as business owners, we serve many different communities. And it's so important for us to understand the community that we are serving and to be able to speak to them in the way that they're accustomed to and be able to serve their needs the best that we can. Pilar: Yes, this is very true, Anne. You know, I was born in New York, and both my parents were from Colombia. So that was all I knew because I spoke Spanish at home until I went to school in New York, and then I spoke English. And then when we, when we got home, we would speak only Spanish. And so every Sunday, my mother would make a traditional meal called ajiaco, which is this wonderful soup with chicken and corn and sour cream and chives, and it's like, it's so delicious. And we would listen to Colombian music. And so I grew up steeped in the culture. So it was like, there was stuff at home -- Anne: Right. Pilar: -- what we did at home. And then there was school. Anne: School. Pilar: And -- Anne: Where did you learn English then. Pilar: I learned English in kindergarten. Anne: Got it. Pilar: Well, I guess it started in nursery school 'cause I went to this playgroup where there were kids from all over. And then in kindergarten, I went to Convent of the Sacred Heart. And I think there was one other person who spoke Spanish. And of course, you know, when you're a kid, you catch on really quickly. So there was like maybe one or two people, one school friend, she spoke German, somebody else spoke Spanish, but that was also the custom of the day, which is that you learned that -- French was what was offered. I don't remember, at least at Sacred Heart, I don't remember Spanish being offered. When I switched schools, when I went to Spence across the street, they did have Spanish, but I mean, I already knew it. Anne: Right. Pilar: And so in New York, at least there was really no Spanish culture per se. You know, every so often of course I would hear Spanish being spoken, but it was in pockets. And so it was my home life, and then there was school life, and it was almost like never the twain shall meet. And so I, I grew up with a very Hispanic background because my parents wanted to give that to us, but I didn't see it reflected outside. That wasn't really until much later that actually it's, you know, you started seeing it, at least, you know, where I grew up. And so of course, my family, we would have -- lots of friends would come over, and they would speak Spanish. And so that was very fluid. But for example, I know friends who, whose parents were, they were not interested in teaching their, their children Spanish. So they have a very Latin sounding name and they don't understand Spanish. Thank God that my mother wouldn't let us speak English when we got home, because my career is basically been bilingual my entire life. Anne: So then, if I can ask, 'cause I've, I've looked this up multiple times, and I'm seeing some kind of different answers in different places. So then should I refer to the community as Hispanic or Latino or what is the difference there, if you wouldn't mind? I've got multiple places that kind of say they're the same, but yet they're different or they're mutually exclusive. Pilar: So it's, it's really strange. And I think us Hispanics, we don't even know. The word Hispanic -- I mean, when I was growing up, you were a Latina. A Latina was just, you were a Latina, which means you were from Latin America. Anne: Right, it referred to a place. Yes. Pilar: Yeah, exactly. So then Hispanic came along. If I go and I look at the term in Wikipedia, it says the term Hispanic refers to people, cultures, or countries related to Spain, the Spanish language, or hispanidad. So it embraces, because obviously we can't forget about Spain. Anne: Right. Pilar: So it embraces Spain obviously -- Anne: Right. Pilar: -- and the Americas where Spanish is spoken. And so Latinx is something that has not been around for that long. And it has to do -- see, for me what I understand it, 'cause I was like, what is this Latinx? 'Cause I was -- I would always hear of it for people who were gender neutral. Anne: That's what I -- Pilar: Who were gender fluid. But that doesn't mean that everybody who is a Latina is a Latinx. Anne: Correct. Pilar: So that's where it gets tricky and where people kind of sit there and they go, well, how do I refer to myself as? And so, you know, I'm an American because I was born in this country. Anne: Right. Pilar: And I speak Spanish. Anne: Right. Pilar: So for me, I would say I'm Hispanic because that's basically just the way that I referred to myself my entire life. The Latinx thing is something that's sort of come about in the last five, six, seven years, I think, which is fine. But for me, ultimately, I'm a Latina. Yo soy latina -- Anne: Right. Pilar: -- and that's kind of -- you know, for Americans, I'm Hispanic, but I'm a Latina because that's how I grew up, una latina. Anne: And it's Latina, because you're female, is that correct? Pilar: Yeah. Anne: And then Latino, is that -- Pilar: Yes. But then sometimes -- I know it's so bizarre -- Anne: And Latinx might be inclusive of non-binary or -- Pilar: Exactly. Non-binary. Anne: Got it. Pilar: That's exactly what it is, but because the Latino -- and because we have that differential in Spanish, because a Latino can also be male or female because I've had -- los latinos is like -- Anne: Right. Pilar: -- that's like everybody. Anne: Right, right. Pilar: You know, like, that's like so -- people just go overboard with trying to define the labels, you know? Anne: I guess, I guess it's just safe to assume that it's a personal matter, how you'd like to be referred to, right, for each person -- Pilar: Agreed. Anne: -- then. Okay. Pilar: Agreed. Anne: All right. Pilar: And I think it's kind of like everything goes. Anne: Yeah. Pilar: I mean, it's not -- well, at least for me, you know. I can't speak for everyone. Anne: Well, it's good to know because I, you know, I had questions I'm like, well, I'm not quite sure because again, when I grew up, I really was not exposed to really many people that had different cultures. I remember when I moved from my small town in upstate New York to New Jersey, I met so many people with so many different cultures, and I was like, this could have been good for me back in when I was growing up. But anyway, so now the question is, you speak Spanish, but there's so many different dialects, right? Pilar: Yes. Anne: And there's so -- many people need different dialects depending on again, what group you're speaking to. And I say group meaning buyer. If you're doing a voiceover and somebody hires you for that, they usually request a specific dialect of Spanish. So what are the different dialects and what, what are the differences between them? Pilar: Okay. So if you're talking, if, you know, if we start with Spain, which is [?], the Spaniards have a very, very different way of speaking. And so it's really interesting because Spaniards are some of the most lovely people, but the way they speak, it's almost like they're shouting at you. So [speaking Spanish] and so everything is just all, everything is always screaming. And that, I just said a bad word, by the way. Anne: Oh. Pilar: But you didn't understand, which is good. Anne: See? Pilar: So yeah, but it's, it's very, very guttural and it's, it's hard to explain. It is very, it's very tough sounding. So that's Span -- that's the Spaniards. Anne: Okay. So does that mean if somebody hires you to do some international work, and you needed to speak Spanish that was directed at people in Spain, would you speak in that delivery? Pilar: Probably, because I actually have been called to do that. Anne: Okay. Pilar: And also of course, and this is, again, nobody really knows because this is just conjecture, but the Spaniards, they have, they have a lisp. So supposedly, and some peoples, historians debate on this, but I want to say it was Phillip II or Ferdinand, I can't remember, but one of the kings had a lisp. So to cover, all the courtiers started lisping to cover his lisp. So instead of saying cerca, I'm near, estoy "therca," estoy therca. And then like canción, a Latin American would say, I'm singing a song, estoy cantando una canción, in Spain you would say estoy cantando una "canthión." It's the th instead of ss -- Anne: Right, right. Pilar: -- just for that particular C. It's not all the time. Anne: So there's Spanish from, people from Spain. Pilar: Spanish, Spain, right. Then they call this neutral. So neutral has a variety of connotations because neutral Spanish is actually, and this is something that I heard many years ago, when they say neutral Spanish, they actually want you to sound more Mexican. Because actually in terms of buyers, the largest minority of Latins is the Mexican -- Anne: Mexican. That makes sense. Pilar: So I want to say it's 89 million, but that might be an old figure. And so the Mexicans have a very distinct accent, if you go to different regions of Mexico. The reason why they ask for it is that it's a flatter way of speaking because when you start hearing different regionalisms, there's a lot of lilting. There's a lot of (singsong) and there's a lot more accents. The Mexican is pretty close in terms of being the flat, which is why they ask for it. Anne: They call that the -- Pilar: They call it -- Anne: Neutral? Pilar: Neutral Spanish, yes. Anne: Neutral Spanish. Pilar: But that's kind of code for -- it's, it's kind of more tilting towards the Mexican. Anne: Right. Because of the larger population, I'm assuming. Pilar: Yes. Anne: That's what -- Pilar: Yeah. And it's the consumer, right? Exactly. But here's the funny part. And again, the VO BOSS listeners might disagree, but the accent in Colombia, the way Colombians speak, is probably some of the best Spanish in all of Latin America. It just happens to be that way. I'm not speaking out of line. Anne: Well listen, I will tell you, I have to tell you this because when I worked in education, my boss for a good 18 years, he was from Colombia. So when he would get angry, and he would kind of go off into a different language -- Pilar: Yeah. Anne: -- it was very interesting. It was, I don't know it was lovely actually, but again, I never knew what he was saying. He was probably saying bad words, if he was angry at me or, or whatever. But it's interesting because he had an accent for 18 years, and he was, gosh, he was one of my, one of the best bosses I'd ever had. I mean, it was like half of my life that I worked for him. So I got to know him from his accent in English, but didn't ever really hear him speaking Spanish too much, except for once in a while, when he would talk to maybe his wife that would call or whatever, if I overheard him on the phone. Pilar: Yeah. Anne: Or if he got angry. Pilar: Yeah. But so Colombian Spanish is grammatically, it's probably the closest to Spanish from Spain. Anne: Okay. But then I imagine there's different regions in Colombia. Right? Pilar: Totally. Anne: Okay. And then you'd have like a different dialect for each. Pilar: Right, because you've got like, for example, the coast, um, [speaking Spanish] it's kind of like Southern, it's like the equivalent of Southern, it's and it's very, uh, it's, it's a great like people from Baidupar (?), [speaking Spanish] and then you've got Baices (?), [speaking Spanish]. There's a beautiful accent from Medellín. And then the region from Bogotá. There's all kinds. Anne: Yeah. Pilar: Where my family was from, Ibagué, it's just, it's a very funny kind of accent. They're all very different. And so that is important because a lot of the times when you are auditioning for something, they're going to ask you, because I get asked all the time. So you've got, like, let's say you've got Colombia, you've got Venezuela, and Venezuela, their accent is different, but it's more in line with the, because like for example, Caracas is on the coast. And so there, that accent is a coastal accent, and it's very close to the coastal Colombian accent from like a Baidupar, from the coast of Colombia, which is closer, not the same thing, but it's closer to like central America. So central America, you get into Dominican, which is very different. They speak at like 30,000 miles a minute. I mean, it is so crazy. You can't understand them. Anne: So then, may I ask, when you get an audition, right, are they specifying the dialect or? Pilar: Yes, yes -- Anne: Okay -- Pilar: -- now they are, now they are. Anne: -- all the time now there, because before this, I mean, bilingual has always been a thing, but I think lately it just was assumed that Spanish was maybe one or two different dialects. And, and I know for a fact, when I do a lot of telephony work, they would specifically request certain dialects of Spanish that they would want on the prompts. And so I think probably even now, right? So if you are not familiar with a specific dialect, do you go and study that before you audition? Or how does it, how does that work? Pilar: Yes, yes. Anne: Okay. Pilar: I actually have a coach who is -- Anne: Oh, okay. Pilar: -- she's great. She has, she knows all kinds of, I mean, dialects from all over the world. So and so I'll, um, I have some, some things that I, that I recorded with her. And so I'll just, I'll go to my notes there because even something proximity wise -- Anne: Sure. Pilar: -- Cuba and Puerto Rico, there's a very big difference with the accents. And I've been asked to do a Puerto Rican accent, and I've been asked to a Cuban accent. Those are the two that I get called to, sometimes Mexican. But a lot of the times what they're looking for, what I'll do, for example, when I'm doing an audition, and they're looking, they're asking to do the neutral Spanish, is that I will tone down. I will be very aware when I'm speaking of my Spanish, because I do have some regionalisms in my Spanish, and people who know, who have an ear and speak Spanish, native speakers -- Anne: Absolutely. Pilar: -- they will hear it immediately, so I can disguise it. It's practice. That's basically, it's like, if you want to put on a Southern accent, a Southern accent from Alabama is very different -- Anne: Oh yeah. Pilar: -- from a Southern accent from Virginia. Anne: Exactly. Pilar: So it's just a matter of being aware of what they are, and it starts in the mouth. So it's, it's great to get together with a coach. And for example, when, when they ask you for a British accent, and they're asking for an upper-class British accent, versus they're asking for a Scottish accent, 'cause a lot -- Anne: Sure. Pilar: -- you know, I get, I get those kinds of things for like video games. You just have to be aware, you practice, you get online. I actually did a, um, an ADR for a movie that came out, and I didn't know the language. So I got hired and he said, you speak Spanish. And I had worked with this looping director before and I said, yeah. And he said, okay, this is, this is a little different, you're going to have to practice. And I thought, okay, great, wonderful. So I start practicing, and it's this thing called Nahuatl, which is from a region in Mexico. And it's not really something -- it's a language, but it's not something that is spoken often at all. Anne: Right. Pilar: And this was for a big Marvel movie. So I started going online. There's very few videos, but I get ahold of them. I find somebody who speaks Nahuatl. And I speak to her and I realized this language has nothing to do with Spanish. And I'm like, uh-oh. So I literally phonetically had to learn phrases. And, and we had that all prepared because the looping director gave us time, but it was like, oh wow. This is a completely different language. This is not Spanish at all, but it is spoken in -- Anne: Spanish. Pilar: -- Mexico. Anne: Yeah, exactly. Wow. Pilar: So yeah, it's limitless amounts of variations. And if you're a native speaker of Spanish, you have to be very aware that you're not dealing with just one -- Anne: Right. Pilar: -- the way your voice sounds. Anne: Exactly. Pilar: You have to be able to adapt. Anne: Right. And not only just in the sound of it, right, or the accent of it, but I would say performance wise as well, right? There's styles in which people speak their language. Pilar: Yes. One of the things that I get called to do is to do a spot, and I have to do it in English and Spanish. And so first of all, Spanish is always longer. It always takes double the amount of time because we talk a lot. So double the amount of time what I say in English in Spanish. Anne: Oh, right, because you talk a lot, meaning the words to translate are twice as many. Pilar: Totally. Yeah. Anne: Okay. And you call it the bilingual two-step, I saw on your website or somewhere I saw that. Pilar: Yeah. Because it really, it takes literally double the amount of time to say it in Spanish as it does in English. And so Spanish is a beautiful language, and it's very descriptive. Anne: So I don't mean to interrupt -- Pilar: Go for it. Anne: -- I'm just thinking like, what if somebody that's not familiar, right, says, okay, I've got a 15-second or 30-second spot in English and oh, by the way, can you do it in Spanish? I assume that presents issues because you might have to do it much faster or you might have to maybe make some different changes and because you can't fit all the words in, is that correct, or? Pilar: Yes. So I'm much more -- I didn't use to be vocal, and I'm much more gently -- and obviously you have to do this in a democratic kind of a way, so you don't ruffle people's feathers. Anne: Right. Pilar: And they were aware of that. You know, copywriters are aware of all that today, which they didn't use to be, that they have to shorten it because otherwise you end up sounding like a chipmunk -- Anne: Right, right. Pilar: -- trying to get it out. And also the way a Latina like me expresses herself in Spanish is completely different from the way I'm going to say it in English. And it's the same copy. Anne: Now, how, performance-wise, if I might ask? Like, so you might say it in Spanish differently, would you be, I don't know, more excited or more dynamic or is -- what's typical? Pilar: I think it's in the way, the way the words are said, it's just different, because, because the actual sounds -- Anne: -- they go together differently. Pilar: Yeah. They go together differently. Okay. So here's something -- let me just see if I have it in English and Spanish. Okay. So this is -- I did something like this and it's, it's an Amtrak spot. "Did you think of the first person you're going to go visit?" Okay. That's in English. I'm just making that up. "¿Ya piensas de quien va ser la primera persona que vas a visitar?" So it's like two completely different people. Anne: It is. Pilar: And I don't know how to explain that, but -- Anne: It is. Pilar: -- it is. Anne: But that brings up a question, which I've always wondered about. So let's just say you have, you're doing a live directed session -- Pilar: Yeah. Anne: -- and the person that's directing you doesn't know Spanish. You have to know, right, you have to know the delivery. Pilar: Oh yeah. Anen: You have to know the nuance or does it happen that you don't always have, you know what I mean, a Spanish speaking, if you're doing Spanish and English or -- what's that like? Pilar: No, generally, actually, no, whenever I do live directed sessions, there's always somebody -- they may not speak it fluently, but they completely understand the language. Anne: Oh, okay. That's good to know. Pilar: You always have somebody there who knows. Anne: That's good to know. Pilar: But as a bilingual speaker, I feel like it's my job to make it easier for them. So I try to -- when they ask me and they're like trying to fish for a word, like, I don't like jump in, but I try to help them out, because it's difficult. Like I've done this my whole life. You know, I'm constantly in my head translating from English to Spanish -- Anne: Right. Pilar: -- Spanish to English. Anne: Right. Pilar: And so sometimes people just don't have that facility. I just happen to do it all the time. Anne: Right. Pilar: So if I can help them with a word or something -- Anne: Yeah. Pilar: -- I do. I'll step in, and I'll say it. Anne: Yeah. And that makes so much sense. I have really, honestly, I have such respect. I think everybody learn multiple languages. Really. I think it's such an education, not just culturally, but just, it's so many things you can get by being bilingual in your own personal development, really, so much you can learn. Pilar: You know, when it's a whole world. Anne: Yeah. Pilar: I mean, when I, when I studied French, it really, really opened it up because I was seeing so many parallels between Spanish and French. And I was like, oh, okay. So now I get why this, these are Romance languages. And then, you know, one time my family, my mother and my, my father and I, uh, we were invited to a wedding in Italy. And it's a really good friend of mine who is getting -- married an Italian gentleman. And I thought, well, why don't I just, I'm going to learn Spanish on the sly. And so -- not, not Spanish, Italian. And back in the day, dating myself, we had Walkmans right? Anne: Yup. I had one of those. Pilar: So I got a bunch of cassettes. Exactly. And I listened to it all the time. And my father would look at me like I was crazy. 'Cause he was like, 'cause I didn't say what I was doing. I was just always with the Walkman on. And so when I stepped off the plane, I was speaking Italian, and we could get around because I was speaking Italian. I didn't speak it that well, but I understood it. Now Spanish is very different from Italian, but there are a lot of words -- Anne: They're similar. Pilar: -- that are the same, so -- Anne: -- if I -- yeah. Pilar: So yeah, so it was really cool to be able to kind of navigate in that world because I had help. Anne: And it's important. I say that because the many times that my husband and I've gone to Italy now, I don't speak Italian, but my husband grew up with his grandparents speaking Italian, and his mother and father, not all the time. It wasn't -- he wasn't required to speak Italian. They were born in America, but his grandparents. And so he had enough knowledge, but thankfully he had that knowledge. And when we stepped off the plane into Italy, I mean, you just, you gotta be able to get around. Pilar: Yeah, yeah. Anne: And so I know very few words, few words, enough to like enough to get a gelato. But -- and to say please and thank you. Pilar: Exactly. And mi porte un po de panni? You can get a -- you can get, go very far. Can you bring me a little bit of bread? Anne: Yup. Pilar: Mi porte un po de panni? That'll get you anywhere in Italy, and there'll be grateful and they'll start flirting with you -- Anne: Yup. Pilar: -- and they'll offer you wine. And, you know, whatever. I'm always in such awe of voiceover artists whose Spanish, who, you know, it was not their first language, but they learned it, and they speak it really well. You know, they may not be native speakers -- Anne: Right. Pilar: -- because obviously fluent and native, they're two different things. Anne: Exactly. Pilar: But a lot of the times I will hear a really good Spanish accent, you know, over the, if, you know, if I'm in a train station or whatever, and you can tell the person is not native, but their pronunciation is flawless. So there's obviously a market for that. Anne: Yeah. Pilar: And that comes through practice. Anne: Yeah. Pilar: You have to practice, you know, and how do you practice? You, you read out loud, you -- and, and I do that. I mean, I'm, I'm a native speaker and I do that on a pretty regular basis. I'm reading a book in Spanish on my Kindle. And so I will read it. I will read entire passages out loud because I need to hear myself -- Anne: It's like a muscle. Pilar: -- and go -- yeah, exactly. Anne: Right? It's a muscle. Pilar: You need to practice it. Anne: If you're not going to be speaking -- I remember my husband's father when he used to talk to the family in Sicily. And by the way, Sicilian is different from Italian and different regions -- Pilar: Totally. Anne: -- there as well. I mean, his father knew enough, but also was very, it was very stressful for him to talk to the family because they would just be talking a mile a minute. And he was trying to get that back into his muscle memory and also speak it. He used to come off the phone. I mean, he'd be sweating. You know? So I can imagine, I can imagine what it's like being bilingual like, first of all, hats off and mad respect to anybody, you know, that speaks another language and can do it in fluently and -- because there's, there's work involved in that, that is a muscle memory and practice and all sorts of things. Pilar: Yeah. Anne: And I was thinking that it affords you some other opportunities in your voiceover business, such as -- I imagine you do a lot of dubbing. Pilar: Yes, yes. Anne: I imagine people ask you to do translation or proofreading services. So there's some other things that you can add as a service to your business as well by being bilingual. Pilar: Well, and also, yes, I agree with -- Anne: If you choose. Pilar: -- everything you just said. Anne: If you choose to want to do, you know, translation -- Pilar: Yeah. Anne: -- or proofreading or those things. Pilar: But even, even just knowing, maybe not being completely fluent, but even knowing a good amount of words and practicing those words -- because here's what I'm starting to see in a lot of copy is English copy but like a couple of Spanish speaking words -- Anne: Yes. Pilar: -- will sort of sift in there. And so if you can say it -- because a lot of the times I'm called and I can't completely make it in Spanish because people will be like, huh? What is she saying? Anne: Right. Pilar: But I can, I can add -- there's some spots I used to do. So instead of saying "this time on Colores" -- so I would never say Colores in regular. Anne: Right. Pilar: But it's not CoLORes. Anne: Right, right. Right. You have to have the accent. Yeah. Pilar: It's somewhere in between. So it's helpful to have an understanding of the sounds that another language makes, because I'll tell you, it's helped me. I can do German. I can -- I don't speak German. I can do Portuguese because it's basically about developing the ear. You know, a lot of times I'll hear a voice actor or somebody say, oh no, I can't speak. It's like, do you have a pair of ears? Anne: It's all about the -- Pilar: If you have a pair of ears, you just, you, you, you train yourself. Again, it's like what you said before. It's like a muscle. Train and develop that. Anne: And you know what, it's so interesting that you say that. I mean really, training your ear is, a lot of it, even just being conversational and, and understanding what a lot of people don't understand, what a conversational melody sounds like, because they've never really studied it. Right? Because all of a sudden -- Pilar: Yes. Anne: -- now, we're being asked to speak these words that didn't come from us and sound conversational. Well, there actually is a melody to being conversational and there's a melody to all of it. And so the process of training your ear is not something that happens overnight. That's for darn sure. You know, I just know that from the many students that when we go through our, you know, how are we speaking conversational or how do we get there? It takes a long time to develop the ear, but it's definitely something that can be learned, but it does take a lot of practice. A lot of practice. Pilar: It takes a lot of practice, but if you do it just five minutes a day -- Anne: Yeah. Pilar: -- and you, and you take a little piece of a newspaper in Spanish -- so just when I first got to Colombia, I had a little bit of an accent in Spanish. And my director was very strict, and he said, okay, you got to go get rid of that. And it was the slightest thing. It was like in the S's. And, and I, I was aware of it, but I was like, I don't know how to get rid of it. So I worked with somebody, but what I really did was I watched telenovelas all day long. And sometimes I would just, I wouldn't, I wouldn't even look at the television. I would just listen -- Anne: Right, just listen. Pilar: And I would repeat over and over again. That's how I learned Italian by myself. Anne: Yeah. Pilar: And so everything is possible -- Anne: Immersed yourself in the sounds and melody of it. Pilar: Yeah. Exactly. Anne: Yeah. Pilar: It's just having it around you, and you don't need to spend that much time on it, but you can -- Anne: Yeah. Pilar: -- if you do it on a daily basis, you are going to improve. Anne: I think it has to be consistent. Wow. There's so many other things I want to talk to you about being a bilingual voice talent. And I think we're going to be continuing that in our next episode, but this was a great beginning to talking about, I guess, the depth of what it takes to be a bilingual voice actor. So I thank you, Pilar. I'm going to say my last question to you is going to be okay, so now you know what our new series name is, right? Okay, so it's BOSS -- Pilar: You want to unveil it? Anne: Well, it's BOSS, and it's voices in Spanish. So how would I say that? Pilar: You would say BOSS Voces. Anne: BOSS Voces. Pilar: Or if you're from Spain, you would say BOSS Vothes. Anne: Oh. Pilar: La voth. Por qué -- Anne: La voth. Pilar: -- muy linda, Anne. Entonces, yo te puedo hablar todo el día, si quieres. Anne: Oh. Pilar: I just went overboard in Spanish. Anne: Okay. Pilar: I said you had a lovely voice -- Anne: Yes. Pilar: -- but for Latin Americans -- Anne: Yes. Pilar: - it's BOSS, BOSS Voces. Anne: BOSS Voces. Pilar: Voces. Anne: Voces, voces. Pilar: So with Spanish, you pronounce all the vowels. So it's ah, eh, ee, oh, oo, right? It's not A E I O U. Anne: Right. Pilar: So it's BOSS -- So you would say, maybe you would -- Anne: BOSS -- Pilar: -- you could give it a little, kind of a, a little sexy lilt. go BOSS Voces. Anne: BOSS Voces. BOSS Voces. Pilar: There we go. You got it. Anne: There we go. Well, now you guys know our new series' name. Thank you so much from my first, my first lesson from you. As always, it has been amazing to spend this time with you. BOSSes, we want you to have an amazing week. If you want to connect and network with amazing people like Pilar, you can find out more at ipdtl.com. You guys, have an amazing week and we'll see you next week. Bye. Pilar: Fue un placer, Anne. Nos vemos. Ciao. Anne: Ciao. >> Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voboss.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. 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Moving from the closet booth to the…car booth? Anne and Pilar finish telling the story of Pilar's Journey in Part 3 of the Boss Voces premiere. Listen as Pilar finally packs her car (+ her cat!) and moves to LA in hopes of establishing her VO career and signing with a big agency. It's been a wild ride, but things are really coming together now on the West Coast for Pilar... More at: https://www.voboss.com/pilars-journey-part-3 Transcript >> It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Anne: Hey everyone. Welcome to the VO BOSS podcast. I'm your host Anne Ganguzza, and I'm so happy to welcome back to the show special guest cohost Pilar Uribe. Pilar, hey, how are you today? Pilar: I'm doing great. How are you? Anne: I'm doing great. Hey, I have been so interested in your story, and we've learned so many things that are parallels to being in the voiceover industry today from your story. So our last couple of episodes, we talked about your telenova star personalities in Colombia and your -- I think it was nine years you were there in Colombia doing all kinds of acting -- Pilar: That's right. Anne: -- and some radio as well. And then you moved on to Miami, and we're talking to us about your radio career in Miami and how you evolved into that and also in voiceover. And now we're on when your next move, which it's so interesting, you moved from Colombia to Florida, to Miami, and I, I think it was all just things seem to take you where you needed to go to evolve in your career. And I think that's such a cool parallel with my experience as well. And hopefully BOSSes that are listening out there kind of have some similarities as well. So I'd love to hear about your, I guess what made you go from Miami to LA, and let's, let's continue the journey with you. Pilar: So I'm in Miami, and my, as I said, in the last episode, my land lady, she actually wrote me an email saying, I'm so sorry, but I'm going to sell the apartment. Anne: And you were there for how long? Pilar: 16 years. Anne: Wow. Pilar: Yeah. So my first thought was total and utter panic because I was like, oh my gosh, I have to get out of this apartment that I've lived in. And I've sort of made a life for myself. And I started looking around. I had been working with somebody. We've had like a 25 now, yeah, more than 25-year conversation with his really good friend of mine in New York and something that he used to say to me. I had started getting a little bit sort of, I want to do something else, but I'm not really sure what it is. You know, I, I've got four jobs and I've got the radio host thing, and it's just, you know, it's, I'm always hustling, and it would be nice to be able to do more voiceover. But you know, Miami is not a lot, a lot of opportunity there, unless it's in my booth. And he said something to me, because I was like, you know, I think I need to. And he would say until you decide to pack your bag, you're not going to move. And he said that to me for years. And I take it now is it's not just a physical thing. It's sort of a, if I want to do something, I have to go ahead and do it. Anne: Yeah. Pilar: Because I can talk about it -- Anne: You have to pack your bag. Pilar: -- until the cows. Yeah. So like, I can talk about it until the cows come home. But if I don't actually do it and decide to make a change, I'm never going to do anything, you know? Anne: Yeah. I love that. I love that. There you go manifestation again. Pilar: Exactly. Anne: Especially for those BOSSes that are early in their careers, and they don't know, and they think about it, and they think this is what they want to do, but yeah. Actually taking the step and the, the physical part of yes, making that decision, putting the things in place, and it helps it come to fruition. Pilar: Exactly. So I didn't tell anybody, and this is something that I'm very conscious of. A lot of the times I would sit there, like I wrote like 17 or 18 songs when I lived in Colombia. And so I said, you know, I'm, I have songs and I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I would tell everybody that I was gonna put out an album eventually. I never put the album out, but I told everybody I was going to do it. And a lot of the times when you say things like that, you leak your energy. So when you have an intention in your mind, it's really important to keep it within yourself, um, and share it with people that you can trust and be aware that it's not something that you need to sit there and gab and gab and gab and gab about, but that you really need to focus on what it is that you're doing. And I think that, that's what I, I mean, I did that for a while, and I would sit there and I would complain, and I'd be like, oh, you know, I want more. And I'm really kind of in love with this thing called voiceover, but I don't really know what it is. And so I decided to just go ahead and kind of be quiet and say, okay, if I'm going to do something -- because I'd been doing it for 10 years and everything that I got was actually I got it. I didn't have an agent. I didn't, I, you know, had the on-camera agents, but I was doing voiceover. So I thought, okay, what, where can I go? And so VO Atlanta was coming up. And so I just thought, well, let me, let me check out Atlanta, because I love Atlanta. I've been there a few times, and I went and I saw these people and it was really wonderful. And then I thought, let me go. There was a, I think it was a WoVo was having a small, like a little mini session in San Francisco. So I thought, let me, let me go there. But once I left to go there, there was something about it. As much as I loved Atlanta, Atlanta was, I mean, at that point, um, this is two years ago now going on three, it's really, it, it definitely has a very strong voiceover, but it was more for on camera. And I realized I really want to focus on my voiceover, you know? And, and I had always thought, I mean, I always knew that in LA, you know, LA for me, it was like the Olympic village. And I was like, do I want to, I've always dreamed of going to LA and this, my friend Dale has been telling me would tell you, pack your bag. Anne: Yeah. LA is weird dreams coming true. Right? People move to LA with their dreams. Pilar: Right, exactly. What was it that they say in -- "what do you wish for? It your dream!" Was it that -- it was this great guy at the very beginning of "Pretty Woman." Anne: Oh! Pilar: He says it at the very beginning. Anne: Oh yeah. Pilar: And he says it at the very end. Anne: Yup. Pilar: "What do you wish for?" It was, it's really cool. So I went to San Francisco and then I went and I spent a few days with a friend in LA. And as soon as I got there, I was like, oh, I'm supposed to be here. And I just knew. Anne: Yup, yup. Pilar: I just, it was like, I arrived. And I just knew that that was the place. Anne: Yup. Pilar: So I went back to Miami and I started setting intentions, just like I had when I moved to Colombia. I was like, okay, I'm just going to start setting my intentions here. And I was like, okay, I'm going to need a place to live. And I had time before I had to leave. So this is like in March, March/April, and I had a lead from a very kind person who wrote a letter to Atlas Talent, and it turned out and of course, it's the universe, because they were looking for bilingual voiceover talent. Anne: There you go. Pilar: So I get this email, and they're like, we'd like to have a meeting. And I was like, oh my gosh, they want to have a meeting? They want to have a meeting with me? Are you kidding? I was like, I, so I didn't want to tell them that I wasn't there yet. So I was like, you know, I'm in the process. So I wrote them back and I said, you know, thank you so much. I'm in the process. I'll let you know when I get there. Anne: Now, can I ask you how long ago this was? Pilar: Two years ago. It's going to be three years. Anne: Okay. And it's so interesting because again, the timing of everything, right? I feel like it's important to me. We're really coming into, you know, inclusivity and diversity and needing bilingual and more and more and more. So that makes sense to me. Pilar: Yes. And, and that will play later -- Anne: Yeah. Pilar: -- into that. So I started packing, I started throwing things away. I started giving things away because I realized I can't move with all my stuff. 'Cause it was just, it was just too expensive. So I had to, you know, sell, give away, donate. And I got July 19th, 2019, I got into the car. I packed all my stuff, and with my kitty, with Paco. Anne: And drove across the country. Pilar: I drove across the country. I picked up a very good friend of mine who actually, we started out almost -- I met him almost as soon as I got to, uh, Miami ,Aaron, Aaron Goldenberg. And he is an actor as well. He was living in Atlanta at the time, but I flew him back from Atlanta to Miami on my frequent flyer miles. And we drove across the country, which I highly recommend. I mean, you know, this is -- Anne: With a cat. Pilar: Of course. Anne: With a cat. Pilar: With a cat, of course. I highly recommend -- Anne: How was your booth kitty in the car for a cross-country trip? That would be interesting. Pilar: I have to tell you, he was really good considering, you know, of course there was meowing going on. Anne: Yeah. Pilar: I never let him out of the car. I mean, I never let him out of his travel bag because, you know, that's just not a good idea with -- Anne: Yeah. Pilar: -- with cats, but he was really good. Anne: What about when you stay -- I can't imagine you did the drive in one fell swoop. Pilar: No, no, no, no, no. Anne: Yeah. Pilar: It took us seven days. Anne: Yeah. Pilar: We would drive, I would park some litter in the bottom of the car. I had some litter there and I had water there. And so what I would do is that I would take him out when we would do rest stops. I would take him out and we would leave him alone. We would close the car. We would leave him the most. So he would check it out. He never went to the bathroom in my car. Anne: Oh my gosh. Pilar: I have to -- yeah, no. So what would happen is when we would get to a place, I would immediately, the first thing I would do was I would set up his kitty litter box with a little portable thing that I had, and I would put it in the closet usually so he would have privacy and he would go immediately. So -- Anne: I can't imagine them holding it for like an eight-hour ride. Like -- Pilar: I know. And the thing is, it was right there. That's what was so obnoxious that he wouldn't go. And I had the kitty litter there for him, but he refused to go. So, you know, whatever. Anne: We digressed, we digressed -- Pilar: We digressed, yes. Sorry. Anne: -- into the studio -- into the studio cat -- Pilar: Yes. Anne: -- conversation. But I'm sorry, I had to, I had to ask. Pilar: But it can be done. I'm just, I'm telling you now, Anne, it can be done if you want to go across with the kitties, it can be done. Anne: See, we manifested it. We manifest -- we manifest our kitties as well. Pilar: Exactly. Anne: Crossing the country. Pilar: Um, yeah. So it was, it was, it was great. I saw the most beautiful parts of this country. I was like, it's, it's really, when you realize, for those of you living in the States -- Anne: Yeah. Pilar: -- you just realize the vastness of this country and how amazing it is. You just, you really don't get that um, you know, when you fly in. Driving, it was, it was just, it was such a great experience driving through all across -- all of the states. Anne: That's what I'm going to do when I retire. Pilar: It's definitely worth doing. Anne: Yup. Pilar: So we, we arrived in Phoenix, and Aaron had to fly back for a gig. So I dropped and we -- that had that already been planned. So I dropped him off in Phoenix, and it was close enough that I could, you know, drive the rest of the way myself. It's like 600 miles. So it was long. But I had, I had done that before. So I drove. And then when I was literally inside LA, when I was literally inside, when I was inside the -- in California, I took a picture. I was like, okay, I've reached California. So I took a little, a little post -- I did, I just did a little Instagram post. And when I got within the confines of LA county, when I knew I was within LA county, I stopped the car. I pulled to the side of the road. I stopped the car, and I sent an email so the agent would know that I was there because I didn't want to lie about that I was there when I wasn't. So I was like, okay, I'm already physically here. So then they know. So then they wrote me back pretty quickly after that. And they said, you know, we're every, and it was, you know, it was the summer. So everybody was on vacation. So I got to LA, I wrote them and I, I saw them like about two weeks after I arrived. I arrived at a friend's house. And then I started doing Airbnb, and then I found a place through a good friend, Randy Thomas. She found me -- a friend of hers had a room. So I rented a room, this dear man. So I just started living basically out of my car. I just, I had all this stuff, obviously. So I took some stuff out, but I would live out out of my car because like, what else am I going to do? Anne: Right. Pilar: I can't bring all that stuff 'cause it wouldn't fit in this room. Anne: And this is before, this is before pandemic. Pilar: This is way before pandemic. Anne: Yeah. Okay. Pilar: Yeah. So, so I'm, I'm -- Anne: Well, not so far, actually. Pilar: No, no, no, no, not that far. No, because this is August. This was August. So -- Anne: Right, pandemic March. Pilar: Yeah. This was the August, 2019. Anne: Okay. Because was it 2020? Pilar: Yeah, yes. Anne: Where have the years gone? Pilar: Yes. I know, exactly. We went through a whole year and a half. Right? It's already -- Anne: Didn't we have two years of pandemic? I'm not sure. Pilar: Yeah, we're about to reach two years of pandemic, yes. Anne: So okay, so you're about a year before the pandemic then. Pilar: Yeah. Six months. Anne: Oh, okay. Pilar: Nine months, nine months. Anne: Okay, nine months. Pilar: Nine months. So -- Anne: Like a pregnancy, like -- Pilar: Exactly, like a pregnancy. Exactly. So I had nine months ,and that's really important. Anne: Yes. Pilar: So I, I, um, I, I go to the agent. I, you know, I get all dolled up and I, I get there super early to the appointment with the agents, and they were like, so incredible. So nice. So normal. I was like, wow, okay, this is just, and they asked me questions. And so I, I, you know, I give them my stuff. I give them my little, you know, my little elevator pitch, which by the way, everybody needs an elevator pitch. That's really important to have an elevator pitch. That's what I'm discovering is like, you know, just basically like a little minute of your life. Anne: Sure. Pilar: You know? Anne: Absolutely. Pilar: And so then they, you know, they asked me, they said, do you want to freelance? Which is what I had been doing for 16 years, because Miami is a right to work state, so with all my on-camera agents. And I didn't, I didn't have any experience with, with VO agents. And they said, do you want to freelance? Do you want to, you know, sign? And I was like, oh, where's the page where I can sign on the dotted line? I was like, I'm not, I'm not freelancing if you're giving me this choice, I'm signing, you know, because obviously California is not a right to work state. It's like, you sign with an agent, you're done. So I was like, yep, I'm on board. And then afternoon, they sent me an audition. And I was like, okay, how do I do this? So I became really good at auditioning inside my car. Anne: Tell me about your setup in the car. Pilar: So the setup is, it's actually, it's a really cool setup. So you sit, you have to sit in the backseat. You pull the seat all the way to -- forward. And I have a Sennheiser 416. Anne: Yup. Pilar: So you pull the seat all the way forward. You sit on -- and, you know, it's, it's, it's a maneuvering situation to get your butt in the bottom of the car, not on the seat, but on the floor of the car. Anne: And we'll share a picture of this setup on our website, on the VO BOSS website. Pilar: Totally. Oh yeah. Anne: I would love to share. Pilar: Oh, I have it. I have it. I have a picture. Yeah, totally. Totally. And then the laptop goes on the back seat, and then I've got my Focusrite 2i2 there as well. And then little, you know, the cables. And then I've got my Sennheiser with a stand in the middle of where the, on the -- Anne: Console, on the console? Pilar: On the console. Anne: Okay. Pilar: No, in the middle of where the front seats are. Anne: Yes, yes. Right. Pilar: So it's that little it's, it's not on top of where the dashboard is, but it's in the middle. So I'm sitting down, and I'm looking -- Anne: I call that the console. Pilar: Oh, you do? Okay. We call that -- Anne: Well, I do, the console in between the seats. Pilar: Yeah. Okay, cool. Cool. Cool. Yeah. Okay, cool. It's like, I'm not familiar with that lingo. Sorry. I'm not that advanced! So I don't know why they used to call -- we used to call them jump seat -- the jump parts. I don't know, whatever. Anyway, so I'll take a little table. I'll call it the table. So I'd put my set, the, the holder, the mic holder and the Sennheiser. Anne: Yup. Pilar: And I would start doing auditions from there. 'Cause I originally, I had a, uh, a dear friend who would also let me use his studio, but sometimes I couldn't get to the studio in time if it was quick. Anne: Right, right. So it's not like you were living out of your car. I mean, you had a place to stay; you just didn't have a booth. Pilar: I didn't have a booth. Yeah. And the thing is I didn't have room. Anne: Yeah. And so your car acted as the booth. Pilar: Exactly. My correct as the booth. Anne: Yeah. Pilar: And so I had the trunk of my car was filled with stuff -- Anne: Sure. Pilar: -- because I couldn't take everything out, 'cause it just wouldn't fit in the room that I was living in. You know? Anne: Yes. Pilar: So like when I wanted to wear something different, I would go and get something out of the car -- Anne: Go in the trunk. Pilar: -- and then -- yeah, exactly it was, it was actually kind of an easy way to live, you know? Anne: Right? Pilar: -- 'cause I, I didn't have that much. Anne: Minimalist. There you go. Pilar: So it was perfect. And then this guy had a garage. So sometimes when I needed real quiet, because it was -- the lawn mower situation -- Anne: Yup, yup. Pilar: -- in California is just a nightmare and a half. There's always lawn blower, leaf blowers everywhere every day. So I would go and I would park the car, and I would, and this was summer. This was still summer. This was August. I was, I was just sweat like a pig. Anne: Sweltering in the back seat there. Pilar: Totally. But it was perfect because I was really, it was like, I was insulated. Anne: But not like Miami. I can't imagine if you were in -- Pilar: No, no. Anne: -- a car in Miami. Pilar: Oh no, that would be horrible. No, I would. I would be, you know, they wouldn't find me. I'd be asphyxiated. It'd be so bad. Anne: So you did your first audition in the car. Pilar: I did my first -- Anne: For Atlas. Pilar: Yeah, I did my first audition -- I think I did my first -- yes, for Atlas. Yeah, absolutely. 'Cause that was, that was like the first I, I needed a place to go. So that's where I did it. And then I did it at this friend's house as well. A lot of the times, you know, I would come in and I would, I would do like three or four, you know, auditions. I did them for five months, five months. Okay? So I would audition. I finally found again, it was, I wanted a quiet place. I asked for a place. I found this wonderful woman who's also a voiceover person. And she had converted her closet, not her closet, but this other house where she had, uh, she had, she used to do it. So it was actually already sort of treated. It was already a treated space where I'm, where I'm talking to you from now. So it was, it was perfect. Anne: Ah, so you're still in the same place? Pilar: Oh yeah. I'm still at the same place. Anne: There you go. Pilar: You know, when I found the place, it was a matter of, I asked around and this person said, oh, I have this friend of mine who's looking for somebody. So it was just, it was so perfect. It was one of these aha moments. I was like, this is it. This is where I'm supposed to live. I saw the place. And I was like, I want, you know, this is where I want to be. And the first day that I moved in, I had not finished moving in when I had it professionally treated and everything set up here where I'm speaking to you from now. So it was perfect. And I just auditioned and I auditioned. And when I say this am, I mean, it, I didn't get one gig. Anne: So for five months, you auditioned and you auditioned. Pilar: I got zero and I, yeah. I took classes of course, 'cause I realized, oh, this is a different scenario. I'm in the Olympic village of voiceover. Anne: Sure. Pilar: This is not, you know, we're not in Kansas anymore. Anne: Right. And when you auditioned, what sorts of opportunities -- were they bilingual? Were they English? Spanish? What were they? Both. What did they send you? Pilar: They were everything. It was like, they were everything. And it was like, oh my gosh, stuff that I would never have been able to do if I was in Miami. Now this was pre-pandemic. Anne: Yup. Pilar: Obviously the situation has changed, but it was also a testament to my agents who were like willing to put me out there because you know, they're always talking and there's always feedback obviously. Anne: Sure. Pilar: So I would get auditions for McDonald's. Well, I would never, I've never been able to do that in Miami. Anne: Hold on a minute. I'm going to back the truck up there for a minute because you say there's always feedback. So with great agents, I think you get great feedback. Pilar: Yes. Anne: And if you are actively requesting feedback, I think that that can very much help. I know there's -- some people never get feedback. I think that that is something that is very different. And when you're shopping around for agents, and agents are shopping around, it really is a partnership. And I think that if you want a great agent, they will, they will be absolutely willing to give you feedback and help to propel your career. Just like you're going to help them get clients. Pilar: Exactly. And you just made a really good point because it's a partnership. Anne: Yup. Pilar: It's not, oh, the agent is up there, and I'm down here or, "oh, you work for me. You got to get me the rules." No, no, no, no, no. Anne: Right, exactly. Pilar: It's not a community. It's like, you've literally created a community. Now, the agents won't say anything until you ask them. Anne: Yes, absolutely. Pilar: If I'm in the driver's seat, I need to drive my career. So I need to ask for that. And I have to be able to, you know, put my ego to the side -- Anne: Yes. Pilar: -- and listen to what they're saying. Anne: Yes. Pilar: And not say, oh, well, they don't know what they're talking. They don't know that. You know, it, it really is. It's a, it's a real give and take. It's about giving it. It's about receiving. Anne: So now in your five months, when you were not booking, were you asking for feedback? Pilar: Not at the beginning, but then I asked for who do you recommend that I study with? Anne: Right, right. Pilar: And they were like, okay, we have this and this and this. And I was like, okay, great. And I also asked other, I asked a lot of other voiceover people. I was like, well, who do you recommend here? Who do you -- so then I started taking classes. Anne: Sure. I think what's nice is that they, first of all, I would feel like because they are a large talent agency and a very well-known one. The fact that they gave you the opportunity, like if it were, I think any normal person going through that, and I'd start to be, oh my gosh, I haven't booked for five -- you know, it would start to psych me out. Oh my gosh, what if they drop me? Or what if, and it could be a nerve-wracking kind of situation. If you feel like, well, there's gotta be something that needs to change here. So you want to book for your agent. Pilar: And you know what the thing is, Anne? To me, it's a testament to my agent, the agency that I have, and I feel really blessed. They were very -- it's not -- they knew that I was there. They knew that I was new, and they were -- Anne: They had faith in you. Pilar: -- it's not that they were hands off. Anne: They had faith in you, right? Pilar: Exactly. And there was somebody that I talked to in the office one time, because I was just like really freaking out at one point. I was like, oh my God, they must think -- Anne: Yeah, I can imagine. Pilar: -- who is this person? Why did we hire her? You know, it's like, she's not doing anything. And she was so nice and to the point, and she's like, you know what? It was almost like she said -- she didn't say it this way, but what she meant from that conversation was we know you're a newbie. That's why we're throwing it all out at you. We're giving you the space to do this. Anne: Nice. Pilar: So, uh, and I can't, I can't remember how she said it, but that's what I walked away from. Anne: Sure. Pilar: And I was like -- walked away with -- Anne: Sure. Pilar: -- and I thought, oh, thank God. You know, I'm not -- Anne: Yeah. Pilar: -- like I'm not going to be fired immediately. You know what I mean? Anne: What a nice, what a nice testament to really a working partnership and that your agent has faith in you, and they're giving you -- Pilar: Yes. Anne: -- that space. And I think obviously they had to have known when they first spoke to you, when they first met you, that you had the wherewithal to be successful from whatever, from your past experience, from your personality, from your drive, whatever it was, they had that faith in you, and they kept that faith in you. So that's a really nice, that's a really nice story. Pilar: Yeah. Anne: I'm hoping that our listeners will take that for what it is, because I think getting an agent and having an agent and having a relationship with an agent is something we could have a whole podcast episode about -- Pilar: Yeah, yeah. Anne: -- in regards to the, how to work together as a partnership. Pilar: Yeah. And, and, and I think for me, what was really great was that I was willing to listen to them, and I was also willing to be transparent with them. Anne: Absolutely. Pilar: So they knew, they knew where I was coming from. I mean, they knew that I had radio experience because I have all this stuff on my website. Anne: Sure. Pilar: But they also knew that I was very new to the business in terms of commercial versus all these other genres in the world that they live in. Anne: Sure. Absolutely. Pilar: And they were willing to give me that latitude. Anne: Great. Pilar: So transparency, I think, is really important in this world. Anne: Oh, I completely agree. Pilar: And to be able to turn it into something of, not that I don't know this -- into, I'm very willing to learn -- Anne: How can I -- Pilar: -- and I'm willing to work hard, yeah. Anne: -- how can I learn? How can I, yeah. I'm eager to learn. There you go back to, back to your roots there. Pilar: Exactly. Anne: I may not know, but I am absolutely eager to learn. And I think there's a lot to be said for that in just an overall mentality about what we do every day in our -- I mean, there's always opportunities to learn, and you're talking to an educator here, one that was in front of the classroom for 20 years. We always, always have an opportunity to learn and to improve. And I think that if you take nothing else away from our episode, absolutely, this is one of them. And there's always ways, if you're transparent, if you want to learn, you're eager to learn, people appreciate that. And agents, especially, I think appreciate that. Pilar: Absolutely. Yep. I totally agree. Anne: So five months, nothing. Then what? Pilar: Then I booked this job and -- Anne: Commercial? Pilar: Commercial. It's a commercial job. And I will never forget when the check came in. I thought they'd made a mistake. I almost called them and said, you've, you've made a mistake because this has gotta be wrong. Luckily I called a friend of mine. I al -- I literally, I had my hand on, on the press send a button. I thought we just call a really good friend of mine back east who's a voiceover. And she started laughing when I told her. She said, no Pilar, that's the right amount. This is what it means when you are a union actor, to get paid in the industry. So I was like, oh, thank God. I'm going to be able to pay my bills. Anne: Yup. Pilar: And then that was the end of January. And then in March, the pandemic hit and I was ready. And so I just, I started booking. I just started booking and booking and booking. Anne: Success begets success. Pilar: Yeah. Yeah. Anne: Fantastic. Wow. What a great story. Pilar: Yeah. Anne: What a great story. And so now during this pandemic, you're still in the same place, right? Except now you have -- Pilar: Yes. Anne: -- you don't have to necessarily record in the back of your car because you have a studio, which is awesome, which is where you are talking to me now from. And you are, I hope just a booking machine. And now is Atlas your only -- I imagine you have more than one agency or is Atlas pretty much your agency you're working with right now? Pilar: Well, I was with Stars before I was with Atlas, and they were, you know, they were okay with it. You know, and they're, they're totally okay with having other regional agents that are not, you know, in their market. I've looked around for others. But you know, when I started looking around the pandemic had hit. So they were really swamped. Anne: Yeah. Pilar: So they're really my go-to people right now. Anne: Sure. Pilar: You know, it's, it's not easy because yes. I had a huge glut in 2020, and then 2021 was a lot quieter. It's been a lot quieter than I expected because I, you know, it was just the, I don't, if it was, I was the new kid on the block or what it was. And so, you know, for me, it's like finding other ways to be creative -- Anne: Sure. Pilar: -- and to be able to support myself in that way. And so it's like, I'm constantly learning, you know? And if there's, if there's one thing that I can, a takeaway for me, from what I've been talking about is that I always have a beginner mindset. So if there's a place where I'm feeling stuck, because this is an area, let's say, where I'm not booking, it's like, okay, what other ways can I find -- Anne: Sure. Pilar: -- to do it creatively? Anne: And to evolve, right, as an artist. Pilar: And to evolve. Exactly. Because it's not just about booking the big, you know, commercial job. Anne: Sure. Pilar: It's about how can I incorporate everything that I've learned, and how can I maybe use that in a different way? Anne: And I'll tell you what I, what I love is first of all, your story is so wonderful because you try, you have faith, you manifest, you move. And while you struggle, you know, and fail sometimes, you ultimately come out where you become successful. And it has happened from the story that has evolved here to you multiple times. So each time when you move, you're growing, you're hitting those stumbling blocks. You're growing, you're finding success. And even now you came to LA, you got the agent, you got the jobs, you did really well. Now you hit a little bit of a lull. And so again, you're going through that cycle of how can I improve? How can I grow? What can I do to, to learn? And I think it's such a wonderful testament to how our industry works and how the artistry works of voiceover, where we just must continuously learn. We must continually take those chances. We must continually learn from our failures, right, and put into practice things that we can do to be successful. And what a great story. I absolutely love it. So I want to take the time now to thank you again for telling the story and helping us in being so inspiring. Because I think in our next episodes, I really want to get more into the nitty gritty of the day to day voiceover career that you are now embracing and, and living so that we can talk about how BOSSes out there can, you know, maybe do the same so that they can be successful. Pilar: Absolutely. And I'm very, very excited to keep going. Anne: Yeah. All right. Well, BOSSes, I'm going to give a great, big shout-out to our sponsor, ipDTL. You too can network like a BOSS. Find out more at ipdtl.com. Guys, have an amazing week and we'll see you next week. Take care. Bye-bye. Pilar: Bye, fellow BOSSes. >> Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voboss.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.

Ok, Bosses. We're picking up right where we left off…in Miami! Anne & Pilar continue discussing Pilar's Journey in Part 2 of the Boss Voces Premiere. Pilar begins in Miami with no TV gigs and begins her radio + voice dubbing career. More at https://www.voboss.com/pilars-journey-part-2 Transcript >> It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Anne: Hey everyone. Welcome to the VO BOSS podcast. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, and today I'm honored to bring back special guest cohost Pilar Uribe. Pilar is a bilingual voice actor, telenova star, and radio personality born and raised in New York City. She broke into show business and had roles with "Ugly Betty," "Poor Pablo," "Eternally Manuela," and "El Cartel" filmed in Colombia and Miami. And in our last episode, we talked about her story, and we ended up from Colombia, now she's arrived in Miami, so we're going to continue the story today. And before that, I want to say that she also has booth a booth kitty, and outside of my booth right now, Pilar, is my cute little Sabrina cat who is jealous because the door is closed, and I know she wants to come in, so. She's -- she wants to come in and talk to you as well. Pilar: I love it. I love it. Anne: Pilar, it's so great to have you back. Pilar: I am so glad to be here. Thank you, Anne. Anne: And what an amazing story, like I said, triple, quadruple threat, TV, radio, voiceover, singer. I mean, you have done it all. And what an interesting, wonderful story you had telling us last episode about your theater experience, your television experience, and your success story in Colombia. And you decided to come back to the States and decided to move to Miami. Pilar: Yes. Anne: So let's pick up from your arrival in Miami and your career once you got there. Pilar: So I get to Miami, and I am staying with my cousins who live in Key Biscayne. I'm thinking I'm all that, you know? I'm this telenovela star. I'm -- where do I sign? Luckily I got, I got an agent really quickly because a friend of mine introduced me to this friend who was a casting director. And the casting director met with me and said, hey, you know, there's this agent. And so I get this agent really quickly and, and she starts sending me out. Anne: So yeah, this is an agent, not a voiceover agent, but you had just started when -- Pilar: No. Anne: -- you were, at the tail end, I think when you were at Colombia, you said you started doing some voiceover for an animated series. So this agent is on camera -- Pilar: Yeah, this is, this is -- Anne: -- casting agent? Pilar: Yeah, my whole up until now, my whole concentration was acting. It wasn't -- Anne: Got it. Pilar: -- voice acting because that's how I had made my bread and butter for the previous nine years. Anne: Sure. Pilar: And so the, the voice acting that I did in Colombia and, you know, the fascination I had with radio, it was just kind of like a, a fun thing. You know? It was just kind of like a fun thing, but I didn't look at it as anything kind of anything serious. So I get this on-camera agent, and I start auditioning and she sends me out on audition and auditions and auditions and I get nothing. And I'm like, oh dear. Okay. Anne: Interesting. You talked before about how you had set visions, right? Pilar: Yep. Anne: And you meditated? Pilar: Yep. Anne: Did you go back to that once you were in Miami? Pilar: No. Anne: Interesting. Pilar: I did not. I did not. Not at the beginning. Okay? The one thing that is probably been a constant my entire life is the importance of training. So even while I was on television every night, I was taking acting classes, and I did them periodically and I worked with some great people in Colombia. And so then I realized, ooh, I'm not booking. I had better get on the horn, and I had better start going back. And so I started taking auditioning classes because I just, I had really stopped auditioning, you know. I'd, I would audition for a role and I would get it, you know? It was just kinda like -- Anne: Sure. Pilar: -- kind of thing. Anne: I was gonna ask you, if you note, what were differences, right, when you were in Colombia versus Florida, what differences in the auditioning process or differences in, I dunno, anything in terms of getting roles? What was different that you noticed? Pilar: Well, for one thing, the community is, was much larger. So there was a lot more competition. Anne: Got it. Pilar: Which means that people were way more polished in their auditions. It was very, very much more competitive. So I realized because I was out of practice. Auditioning was not something that I was doing on a, on a regular basis. When I was living in New York, the -- I did that on a regular basis. And you know, one of the things that I learned in, in Miami from a very close friend of mine, he said, auditioning is the job. Acting is what you get to do once in a while. Auditioning is the job, acting as the hobby. Anne: Yeah. Similar to voice acting. Right? Pilar: Exactly. So I started, I started doing that, and, uh, I started getting better at auditioning. And I started actually booking theater roles. So I became pretty, pretty regular in booking theater gigs, which I loved because I got to, you know, I, I got to go back to, you know, when I used to do it a lot more after college and stuff, but still, you know, that didn't really pay the bills. One thing that I would notice was that the theater actors, they would talk about how they were going to the studios, dubbing studios, or they were coming to where they grew up going from. And I was like kind of curious, you know, what's, what's this whole dubbing thing about? And so a friend of mine said, well, you know, why don't you go to this studio? And so I, I called somebody up and it was a friend of a friend. And so I went and I auditioned, and that's the very first time I saw like a studio with different booths. And, and I thought, oh, this is really interesting. And so I was dubbing from another language, and they were all in Spanish. They were doing all these dubbing, these, these telenovellas from Spanish into English. And so -- Anne: Did you have any training in it previously or was it just something that you kind of picked up? Pilar: Zero, yet again, just like when I went down to Colombia, I had very little training and in TV, and then I, I had no training in, in doing this. Anne: But then you had all experience in television and being in television -- Pilar: Yes. Anne: -- so that I'm sure helped you in your dubbing experience because you already knew what it was like to be the actor, right, on camera. Pilar: Right. Anne: And now you could absolutely, probably just parallel that with dubbing. Pilar: Exactly. So the acting part of it was the important part of it. Anne: Yeah. Yup, exactly. Pilar: But there's the technical side of it, which is you have to match lips and as they say out here, lip flaps, so you have to figure that part out. So I auditioned a lot. Didn't get very far and I continued. I continued to do my theater and I did a little bit of commercials. Anne: Now, at this time, was it all in Spanish or was it both? Pilar: No, it was all dubbing from Spanish into English. Anne: Okay. Pilar: Yeah. It was 100% or from -- but I was just auditioning, you know. So I auditioned, I would say I auditioned quite a few times, and then I actually got a gig. Anne: Meaning, well, I guess my question would be like, were you auditioning for roles in Spanish or both Spanish and English at the time auditioning? Pilar: So here's the thing, my experience up until this moment was only with dubbing. Anne: Okay. Pilar: I had no other access to like, what is now, you know, doing commercial voiceover or medical narration or e-learning, I didn't know any part of that business. Anne: I'm thinking even on camera, were you, when you were auditioning on camera, were you auditioning for roles that were Spanish -- Pilar: Yes. Anne: -- or for Spanish and English both? Pilar: Both. Anne: Okay. Pilar: I was doing both. I was, yeah. So my life has always been about doing -- Anne: Both. Pilar: -- doing both. Yeah. Anne: Yeah, the reason why I wanted to call that out is because for a person -- I am not bilingual. Right? For me, there's only just English. So I want to make sure that I hear when you are talking bilingual, like you have like almost, is it more opportunity or is it more work for more opportunity? And what are the things that you need to be considerate of when you are auditioning for both Spanish and English or are there differences?So it's just something for me, it's a new perspective. Pilar: So I think that the most important thing, really, it all comes down to the acting, Anne. It's not really -- Anne: Right. Pilar: -- about the language because it all starts from inside. So for me with the on-camera, and this is what I discovered when I was doing dubbing, is that whenever you're looking at, what's in front of you on the screen, if you're dubbing a, a woman who is -- or a character who is in pain or who is crying, you have to feel that pain, you have to feel that sadness. Because if you don't, it's not going to show up in your voice. Anne: Sure, sure, exactly. Pilar: It's not about manipulating the voice. It's about starting from the inside out, which is what a lot of people, when they're first starting out in the business, I hear this all the time -- Anne: Oh yeah. Pilar: -- everywhere, on Clubhouse. Oh, I've got a really good voice. And how do I make my voice this? And it's like, no. Anne: Yeah. Pilar: That's not what it's about. It has to start -- that's why the acting -- Anne: From the inside. Pilar: -- matters. It has to start from the inside. Anne: Yeah. I, sorry, I didn't, I got off a little bit on a tangent there -- Pilar: No, no, no, no, no! Anne: But yeah. So yeah, continuing while you are auditioning like crazy in Florida. Pilar: So I'm auditioning like crazy for voiceover, but I'm still doing my, my theater. I was doing my commercials. I gave myself for the first time in my life, I, I went on this cruise. It was called, what was it called? Celebrate your life, a Louise Hay cruise. Very, very spiritual. And there were all these great speakers. Wayne Dyer was there. Anne: Yup, yup. Pilar: Gregg Braden was there. It was a, it was like the coolest thing. And I'm like, oh my gosh. I met somebody. It was like, Ooh, this is really cool. And then I came back, and I get this call for an audition. And there, this friend of mine, who's an actor. He's like, well, you know, they want you to audition in this dubbing studio for this role. And I get the role. And at the same time that I get the role, I have this major health challenge, and I'm like, oh no, what's going to happen? And I'm like, you know what, I'm going to do this. I'm just going to do this. And then the enormity of it hits me 'cause I'm like, oh, wait a minute. I don't know anything about voiceover. I don't know how to do this. It's like, I'm an actor. And so I was really lucky because I had this great engineer, Rafael. I'll never forget him. And he kind of guided me, and we would do it like on a weekly basis. 'Cause I was dubbing a show. I was dubbing a series and it was coincidentally, it was Colombian. So I just started dubbing an episode or two a week, and he would teach me. And he'd be like, okay, I need a little bit more from you, do this from you. A lot of it was just observing and listening and looking what was on the screen and doing what that character was doing on the screen and incorporating it into myself in English, through my voice. So, you know, I did that, I got better. Then I got a call from another studio and then a third studio. And I was like, oh, this is really cool. Anne: Success begets success. Pilar: Success begets success. Right? Anne: Exactly. Pilar: Now here's the thing about Miami. Miami is a right to work state. So the rates are not that great. Dubbing in itself is, is a, is not -- Anne: Yes. Pilar: -- a moneymaker. Let's put it that way. Anne: I was gonna say that. And especially now given the current situation, I know Netflix has just gone crazy, and there's lots of opportunities for dubbing these days. Pilar: Yes. But here's the thing, the good thing about the union, they signed an agreement. I think it was two years ago, with Netflix. So they have to have certain rates. Anne: Good. Excellent. Pilar: Yeah, yeah. Anne: Well, I was just meaning I've -- I'm hearing so much about more opportunities these days since the pandemic, since there's just a lot of -- Netflix has been producing a lot more movies -- Pilar: Yes, yes. Anne: -- and the streaming stations. So I feel like there's more dubbing opportunities that I'm hearing about these days. Pilar: Yes. Not a ton. Anne: Yeah, yeah. Pilar: It's really great. Anne: Yeah. Pilar: So, so I started doing more and then I realize, oh, well this is interesting, but again, not much money. So I thought, well, let me, let me try. Somebody told me about an audiobook kind of a situation. I thought, oh, okay. This is interesting. Let me do, let me see what's going on with that. And so I get on ACX. I do my first book. The book is terrible. Okay? I'm gonna, I'm just gonna tell you right now. Anne: This is why I don't do books. I'm just saying. Pilar: Oh my God, the book, I didn't want -- the book itself, the book itself wasn't terrible. My recording. I mean, I don't think, you know, people have bought the book, and I've done, you know, a bunch of books since then. But I just, I look back at that first book, and I was like, oh my gosh, it's really kind of frightening. But you know, I really got into it because it was a character driven. Anne: Sure. Pilar: Again, though, if you're not a technical person -- everybody talks about getting into audiobooks. The one thing I will say, and it's, it's gotten a lot better. The technology has gotten a lot better, but if you're not a super-duper wiz at editing -- Anne: Oh, it's a lot of work. Pilar: It's a lot of work is all I'm going to say. Anne: Any long format narration, but especially books. Pilar: Yes. Anne: Yes. Pilar: Especially books. Anne: So much work. Pilar: It's a lot. It's a lot. So I don't -- Anne: And the money that you're making from it, I don't, for me, it just, it was like, gosh, it's so much work for not a lot of money. So -- Pilar: I totally agree. I totally agree. Anne: Yeah. Pilar: So I did a couple. I didn't do that many. I did a couple and then I was like, oh, this is just so much work. I started off, I had a booth in my kitchen, outside of my kitchen. It was in the living room and I, a friend of mine helped me, you know, construct it. It was really great. And then I discovered that every 10 minutes I had to stop because the stupid sound of the refrigerator would, would come into the recording. Anne: Yes. Pilar: Oh my gosh, you have no idea how terrible that was. So I moved it into the, a closet, which I actually had a really good, very, very narrow but long closet. So I, after a couple of iterations that became my studio, but I still wasn't making a lot of money. So I decided, you know what? I'm going to try, I'm going to send out feelers for like a nine to five job or a part-time job in radio. Anne: I was just gonna ask you that because there's so many people when they're trying to get into voiceover, and they want to go full time. And even when I started full-time, I had to have a part-time job so that I felt like I could contribute to paying the bills in terms of the household, for sure. So I was wondering through all those years, when you were like, kind of scraping by, did you have a second job doing something different like, I don't know, waitress, bartender, corporate? Pilar: I always had an administrative job going, like I was an administrative assistant -- Anne: Yup, yup. Pilar: -- to a friend of mine and she was great, 'cause I could always go and come back. Anne: Yeah, yeah. Pilar: She was really understanding. Anne: You could do your auditions. Pilar: Yes. So, you know, sometimes I would work for her full-time. Sometimes I would work part-time. Anne: Yup. Pilar: So it was really great to be able to go back and forth in that. But yeah, I always had a second job, and then I realized, you know, what, if I could have a second job doing something like radio? So I went, I went down the list of all the radio stations in Miami -- again, and now I'm realizing it as, as we're having this conversation. I did actually, I marketed myself out to them. Anne: There you go. Did you manifest? Did you manifest your radio job? Pilar: This, I started, I started manifesting. Yes. I went back to that. Yes, ma'am. I started seeing myself in front of a, in front of a microphone. Absolutely. And I didn't get one bite. Okay? Indeed.com, I papered my resume. And I spent a year and a half looking for this, but I set an intention, I set an intention. I said, I'm going to get a radio job. And the very last place that I looked at was, and I was talking to my friend who I had been her administrative assistant. We became each other's accountability buddies. She said, well, um, why don't you call up WLRN? WLRN is the NPR satellite in Miami. And I had looked at their website, and it said that there was a three to five-year position. And I was like -- three to five years experience needed. And I thought, I don't have three to five years. And she said, just write them. Just say, you're willing to work for them. You know, just say, you know, and I was like, you know what? Why not? Anne: I'm eager to learn. Pilar: Exactly. That's what exactly -- I'm eager to learn. I'd sent out so many resumes, Anne, and to so many different -- all of the companies in Miami. So I'm talking to her, and this is, this is the great part. This is like the manifesting part because I really, really was manifesting this heavily. I send it out while I'm talking to my friend on the phone. I knew how to do this by heart by now. I'd composed a letter. I sent my resume. I sent a couple of samples. Not 20 minutes later, I get a call from the guy -- Anne: Wow. Pilar: -- saying, do you want to meet? And I was like, sure, I'd love to. So I went and I met with him a couple of times, and they started me off working for them. So this was a, it was a part-time job because they were affiliated with a school. And so they said, well, you know, you -- we'll, we'll get you on the air, and then you'll do some spots for us. I was like, okay, great. So before a month was out, I was on the air, and I was doing spots for them, underwriting spots. They don't call them commercials because it's, you know, it's, it's, you know -- Anne: Yeah. Pilar: -- it's not-for-profit. Anne: So it wasn't a show? You just started doing spots for them. Pilar: I started doing spots for them, but then they put me on the air from 10 to 2. Anne: Okay. PIlar: And then, so what I would do was that on my breaks, because I was hired from, you know, I would get there, like, let's say 9, 9:30, and then I would leave after my spot. So between breaks, when the shows were on, I would go into the other room and do the spots. Anne: Sure. Pilar: And then they started giving spots and then they started giving me more spots. And then I, I managed to work out a deal with them through the union and so that I would do their -- and I would produce their spots. So I would put music and sound effects under for their TV arm of the company. Anne: Oh, wait. So remember when I said quadruple threat? So now we've got yet another. Now she's producing spots as well! Pilar: Well, again, Anne. Anne: Yup. Pilar: I have no idea what I'm doing, right? Anne: Yup. Pilar: Because I, you know, I would just play record. Anne: Sure, sure. Pilar: So now I have to put, so I now have to do tracks, and I had to learn a whole set of other skills -- Anne: Sure. Pilar: -- because I didn't know, I didn't know how to do a console, how to handle a console and do three things at once. So now I'm, I'm producing spots, and then they give me more, and then they give me more and I'm like, wow, okay, I'm getting -- it's almost like the 10,000 hours -- Anne: Yeah. Pilar: -- in, you know, in Outliers. It's like, I'm getting all this training. Anne: I think, I think that's great. And I love the 10,000 hours thing from Malcolm. And I am a total proponent of you need 10,000 hours. And whether you realize it or not, you had put your 10,000 hours in many aspects of your career. And again, if I can recap, you manifested, you wanted to be in radio. It didn't happen overnight. And that's one thing I want to kinda just touch back upon. Because a lot of times I think we're impatient with ourselves. And I think for me, going by my gut, this is what I always say, going by my gut, manifestation, doesn't always happen overnight. And I think that it leads you to the right steps to get to the right place so that you can fulfill that dream or that goal. And so, even though it didn't happen overnight, it did happen because you manifested it. You wanted it, you took the steps that were required to make it happen. And it happened. So BOSSes out there, if you're listening, we can all be learning about this. We can all give ourselves some grace, be patient, but believe in the manifestation and take those steps that it takes to cultivate and achieve that dream. So, sorry, just had a break in there with the educational moment. Pilar: And it's so important what you just said, Anne, because we're thinking that when we call it into being, let's say we're manifesting it, that it's going to happen on our timeline. Anne: Exactly. Pilar: Who died and made you God? Right? Who said that you would, that you would be doing this? Or if I, in my case that, because I said, I want to work in radio that next month, the following month -- Anne: Right. Pilar: -- I was going to be working radio? No. Anne: Right, right. Pilar: No, no, no, no, no. That's not the way it happens. Like there's steps. Anne: It evolves. Pilar: And if you cut those steps, and you, and you jump, you're going to be disappointed or you're going to do it the wrong way. There's a reason that the things come into your life when they come into your life. Anne: Oh yeah. Pilar: And it's because it's when you're ready to receive them, then you can go, oh, because at that moment, when I sent out that resume, I was ready. I might not have been ready if I had sent it out earlier. It may not have hit in the right way. Anne: Sure. Pilar: Later I talked to my boss at WLRN, and he said, you know, I get resumes all the time. It's just that when I read yours, it really fit because you're, you're a Latina. So you could say all these complicated words that would come out in Spanish and French because I also speak French. So, you know, sometimes these things would -- Anne: And yet another threat. I love it. Pilar: But you know, like sometimes there would be these, these weird companies, these weird -- not weird. They're not weird, but they're just French companies. So with the accent -- Anne: Sure, sure. Pilar: -- it would just come out better. And I will say one thing that was really fun when I was working in radio was that I got to say my name the way I would say -- 'cause like, if I say my name like, you know -- my, my name is Pilar Uribe. And that's how I, that's how I slate, Pilar Uribe. But once in a while I get to slate my name the way I usually, I would say it on the radio -- Anne: Sure. Pilar: -- which was "mi nombre es Pilar Uribe. Hola, Pilar Uribe" Anne: Ooh. Pilar: So it's like, it's so much fun to actually say my name. 'Cause I don't, I don't get to do that very often. Anne: Sure, sure. Pilar: You know? So we was fun to be able to use the bilingual aspect of it all. I mean, I was literally daily using it in the studio because I had to pronounce words in a certain way or -- Anne: Sure. Pilar: -- you know, so that was really fun to -- Anne: So now, how long was your radio career with WLRN? Pilar: It was two and a half years. Anne: Okay. Pilar: And one day my, my landlady writes me an email and says, I'm selling the apartment. I'd spent the entire, my 16 years in, in Miami in the same apartment. I had a great land lady, always had really good luck with that. And I was, I panicked. I was like, oh my gosh, what do I do? And I thought, this is the moment. This is the time -- Anne: For change. Pilar: -- I had been talking about moving. And this is the moment to go and move. And this is the moment for a shift. I literally felt the shift. I was terrified. And I will say that one of the things about doing something new is that there's always the element of fear. Always. Anne: Oh yes. Yes, yes. Pilar: So to sit there and you know, when people say, oh yeah, I went ahead and did this. And you know, you hear these marketing gurus. I, I listen to them on Clubhouse, and you know, they -- do this and I got this and they did this. And it's like, all of that happens with fear. It's just that the courage to be able to change -- Anne: To move through it. Pilar: -- and to move through it is -- Anne: To work through it. Pilar: -- is higher -- Anne: Doesn't mean that you're not scared. Pilar: -- than fear. Exactly. Anne: But you're moving through, and you know what's so interesting about the move? I've got two stories about moving and change. I remember when I personally, I felt like I needed the change. And one was when my husband and I were in New Jersey, and I said, I'm done. I, I love New Jersey. It's served me well, but I'm done. And I would love to go live in California. Jerry, why don't you see if you can get a transfer? And lo and behold, he did. And then I said to him, oh, by the way, Jerry, I need you to be able to make one and a half times what you're making now, because, because I want to quit my job and go full-time into VO. And guess what? It happened. However, nine months after that, he then got laid off from his job. But we stayed. We stayed, you know, we moved to California, we stayed in California, and we worked through it. Everybody said, when are you coming back? I'm like, I'm not coming back. So I worked through the first few years of being full-time voiceover. And it was just one of those things. I had my goals in mind and just set my brain to it. And somehow I've arrived here, thankfully gratefully. But the second time I said, I need a change, we had been in Irvine for 12 years. And I said, I'm done. Thank you, Irvine. It's been wonderful. We need to move, Jerry. And it was one of those things where I didn't even -- he was on a business trip and I said, Jerry, I need to go somewhere else. I know I've got a good 10 years left before -- 10, 15 years before if I, if I retire at all and I need to do it in a new place. And so basically I just said, I want to move. But putting that move into place, we literally got in like maybe a week before lockdown to our new house. Pilar: Wow. Anne: So we had to, like, we had to sell the house. I had to stage the house. We bought a new house. The new house wasn't ready. I had -- we had to move someplace in the interim with the cats, with you, sell the furniture, everything, put stuff in storage. And it was so much work, but we got through it, and now we're in a new place, but it was all from a need or a feeling in me that I needed to shift. I need, I couldn't be stagnant. I needed to grow and change. And I followed it, and it was tough, but I'll tell you what. We're so grateful. And I totally agree with you in terms of like, these things are put in place for movement and change to help people grow and flourish, if you take it in that vein. Pilar: That's so powerful, that story, Anne. It's like listening to your insides instead of worrying about what the outside is saying or -- Anne: Yeah. Pilar: -- you know, because you're always going to get pushback. Anne: Oh yeah. Pilar: Because there's all kinds of things that, that will, uh, not necessarily bar you, but will make you take stock and think -- Anne: Oh yeah. Pilar: -- is this the right decision? Anne: Oh yeah. And I'll tell you if I may interrupt for just one second, I'm so sorry -- Pilar: Yeah, yeah, go for it. Anne: -- but I need to tell you that, 'cause you just brought to my mind was the biggest thing was this second time is now that I was an entrepreneur, right, with my own business, you realize that banks don't want to give you loans or approve mortgages when you are self-employed. And so that was huge. I mean, we had to bend over backward to prove that I had money coming in and that, that was, that was a huge thing. And I have to say that I'm grateful and thankful that my voiceover business flourished as it did so that, that wasn't -- I mean, it became a thing where we were worried up to the very last minute that they were not going to approve the mortgage because I had to show all sorts of records of income. And it just, it's crazy when you work for yourself. But thank gosh, my husband, he is able to prove half of it because he worked for an employer, but for me, they were like, no, you need to prove this, this, and this. And so that became a big point. So BOSSes out there working for yourself, know that these things exist. Pilar: And believing in it, I think that that's really important. What you just described is like, despite the no's being told -- Anne: Yes. Pilar: -- you went ahead anyway. Anne: And did everything I had to do, right -- Pilar: Exactly. Anne: -- to prove and to get through it. So, absolutely. Pilar: Yeah. Um, you know, I think there's something that's so important in this business to recognize is the amount of no's that we get. Anne: Yeah. Pilar: And when I think about the radio -- Anne: So many. Pilar: -- I mean, I got so many no's, and I got so many, like silences, because that's the other thing about this business. Anne: Yeah. Pilar: You don't necessarily get told you don't get the part, or you don't get the gig. You're just, nothing happens. So, you know, that it went to somebody else. Anne: Yeah. Yeah. Pilar: And so, and it's, it's about physically and emotionally and being able to say, okay, all right. That's, that's, you know, and just moving on with it -- Anne: And moving on. Pilar: -- instead of dwelling in it. Anne: And again -- Pilar: Right? Anne: -- can I bring another, can I bring another marketing parallel into this? Pilar: Go for it. Love it. Love it. Anne: So not only auditioning and understanding that if you audition, maybe it's not the right time, right, for the person that is casting that audition. Maybe it's just, it wasn't the right fit for the job at that right time. But also when you're marketing and you're sending out those emails, or you're making those cold calls, all the time, there are no's. Right? And, and it's just not the right time. And so keep in mind that even when you're marketing, that is absolutely a huge consideration, that it's not the right time. They're not looking at that time to buy or to purchase, or they don't need a voice at that time. And the same thing applies to your marketing. So I know so many people that get so defeated about their marketing and like, why isn't it working, and how can I get the next gig? And it's one of those, it's a huge timing issue. And I know when I talk to my BOSS Blast clients, that that is a thing. You know, we get so many emails in our inbox every day. And like, I subscribe to old Navy, right? So old Navy three, four, or five times a week is sending me their latest sale. But I don't click on that email until I need something. And so the same thing goes for if you're trying to market your voiceover business, and that could be a whole other episode, Pilar, with that. Pilar: I think it is. I think it is because I have a story, which I'm not going to include -- Anne: Yeah. Pilar: -- but I have a great story about that. And that's, that's really important. Yeah. Anne: So I love, love, love all the parallels that we are making through your story. So thank you, Pilar, for providing that story. So now I'm going to assume that that next move, is that coming back to New York? Pilar: No. It's going to -- Anne: Or going to all -- LA. Pilar: -- Los Angeles, yes. Anne: So we're going to be hitting the next episode with when you now, I guess, leave Miami and make your trek towards LA. So BOSSes, I can't wait for this next episode. Pilar, thank you so much again for this inspiring, motivating story. I'm just so glad that we're doing this. Pilar: I, I get such a kick out of talking with you, Anne. I learn so much with you, so thank you. Anne: Well, I love drawing the parallels, so. Pilar: I love it. I love it. You're good at it. Anne: So I'd like to give a great, big shout-out to our sponsor, ipDTL. You too can connect just like Pilar and I are connecting like BOSSes. Find out more at ipdtl.com. You guys have an amazing week and can't wait to see you next week. See ya. Bye! Pilar: Bye! >> Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voboss.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.

Bosses, in 2022 we are failing fast + furiously. Who's in? In this Bonus Modern Mindset Episode, Anne is joined by special guest Erikka J. They discuss blending tech + creative passions, pursuing multiple careers simultaneously, and most importantly, why it is oh so important to fail so that you can succeed! Transcript >> It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Anne: Hey everyone. Welcome to the VO BOSS podcast and the Modern Mindset series. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, and today I am so excited to bring you special guest Erikka J. Erikka is a multi-talented singer, songwriter, and award-winning voice actor. She's voiced for brands such as Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Apple, IBM, Discover and -- keep going -- Black Lives Matter and many, many more. As a natural born hustler, I love that, she is also a tech girl, just like me, a project and product management professional with 15 years' experience in multiple sectors, including government, e-commerce, software development, and automotive. Erikka J, it is a pleasure to have you, and thank you so much for joining me today. Erikka: Likewise, thank you, Anne, for having me and, uh, hey to the BOSSes out there. Anne: Yeah, I love it. So I went to your website, which by the way is beautifully branded. So guys, BOSSes out there, you want to have a look at something that's really beautifully branded, I love the website. I was drawn to the music tab there. So I want to say that I love your concept of delivering meaningful, honest, and relatable lyrics, which you call jewels, right, to your fans. Erikka: Yes. Anne: I imagine that this also applies to your philosophy in, in your VO being real and meaningful and honest, and I'm sure that that contributes in a multitude of ways to your success. But let's talk -- we'll do, we'll talk about that in a minute -- but let's talk about how did your singing career help prepare you for your careers thereafter in business as well as voiceover? Erikka: Oh man, I got, uh, I almost want to say I got lucky, but I worked for it too. Um, so I, um, you know, went to college, and even though I was singer and doing all of that, and people were, you know, telling me I should pursue that, I went the whole corporate route. But music chased me; it wouldn't let me stay away from it. So I got the business education from getting my MBA and from working in state government, federal government, and now a corporate job in automotive. But in music, I learned how to record myself out of necessity. So I mean, you know, I didn't have the big label behind me, but I had some ideas and I had to record my own songs that I've written. So started on audacity, started on a Scarlet -- Anne: Wow, all right. Erikka: Scarlet bundle, like with that mic, like that's where I started, in the closet. Yeah, recording myself in music, I learned the tech side of it and how to listen and get very detailed with my ear. And I eventually, I made my way over to voiceover and those skills came in really handy. Anne: Wow. Well, I have to say as a young artist back then, that's an ambitious goal, right, to be a singer. Talk to me a little bit about -- I know you said you didn't have a big label, but it's not like you didn't try to pursue a career path that way I would imagine. Erikka: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I did the indie route. Anne: Okay. Erikka: So I mean, at that time, you know, early 2010s around ish -- Anne: Oh okay, gotcha. Erikka: -- so Internet was around and all the distributions. I could put myself on iTunes and all the platforms. So yeah, I never really did pursue the label route. I wanted to sort of be the captain of my own destiny, you know? Anne: Gotcha. Erikka: Yeah. And I had friends that were engineers, so they kind of helped teach me stuff and get me set up with templates. So, um, I did pursue it on my own, but I didn't pursue the getting signed sort of traditional route. Anne: Um, now is that something that you're still doing, or you're still considering, or trying to pursue all different routes? Erikka: I would say I'm probably like on hiatus. Anne: Gotcha. Erikka: Music broke my heart a few times. I love it, definitely my first love. But boy, when I found voiceover and was able to pull all these different things that I love into one big bucket, like I've really just fell hard. Anne: So what was it that made you go into business? I mean, you have your MBA. So when you're the starving artist, right, everybody says go to college. And that was, that was my mother, go to college and get a real job. But interestingly enough, what made you pursue your master's in business? Erikka: Yeah, so I kind of always say I lived my life in reverse almost, like in my 20's, I was super serious and straight and you know, yeah, singing's great. But I have to go get a real job. Anne: Right, right. Erikka: I went to college and you know, and it worked out well for me, but again, music just kept pulling me back, the creative that, you know, muscle, it just doesn't, it doesn't die. Anne: Oh, I agree. Erikka: It won't let you move away from it. So I just decided to do both -- Anne: Love it. Erikka: -- and it was crazy. It still is crazy. And I preach that all the time. Like I still have a full-time corporate job at this moment in tech and full-time voiceover, full-time I do both. Anne: Girl after my own heart. I tell ya, it's something special. Right? You have the tech gene and the creative gene. And it's so interesting to have both. It sounds like you love both. And you're passionate about both. Erikka: I do, I do. I mean, and how I got to voiceover was I was doing gigs on the weekend with a corporate band. So my kids were young at the time, and I was writing my own music and doing all that, my own shows, and working for the federal government, for Department of Defense at the time. Anne: Wow. Erikka: So seven days a week, I'm working every day, a little kids, single mom too. Anne: Wow. Erikka: So I was away a lot and you know, I've made time for them, but I was trying to find ways to spend more time with them. And somebody had mentioned voiceover and I'm like, what's that? Like, I didn't even know that people get paid for the stuff I hear on TV every day. And then I just, you know, did the Google hustle, man, you know, and figured it out online, and here we are five and a half years later. It's going pretty well. Anne: Wow. And here you are. That's amazing. Let's talk a little bit about tech -- Erikka: Yes. Anne: -- especially about, I guess, agile practices, which I believe you specialize in, correct? Erikka: Yeah. Yeah. Anne: So I know that I've done an e-learning module on agile practices. I don't know if I understood them completely, but tell me a little bit about first of all, what are agile practices and what can we learn from them in our voiceover career? How do we relate those? Erikka: Yeah, yeah. So agile is like a mindset. It's an approach to software development is how it was born. And I believe it's actually the 20-year anniversary this year or last year it was. It was in 2001 that I think maybe like 17 different software developers got together. Waterfall was sort of their prevailing software development method, which to shorten it is basically just what I used to do, where you write a requirements document. I would write documents that are 60 pages long. You turn that over to your software engineers. You know, we kind of discuss it, go back and forth, make sure everybody understands, and you could be building something for months and then deliver it. So these guys got together and came up with this manifesto of 12 different elements that really focused on the customer, on delivering value over documentation, on making sure that it was an iterative process. Anne: Sure. Erikka: Because what can happen is if you're developing something, and you take six months to get it out, what I wanted six months ago is no longer a value to me. Anne: Yeah. Well, there's nothing worse than having a piece of software, and there's a bug in it. Erikka: Yeah. Anne: And then you have to wait like forever to get that resolved. Right? I assume that that's part of where this all came from. Erikka: Yeah. Not even a bug. It could mean that they were coding it to spec, but the spec is now changed. Um, you've gotten all the way down the road. Sometimes, you know, these are 18 months projects. Anne: Right, right. Erikka: And you've wasted money, time and value now. So this agile approach, and what I wanted to talk about today is one of the, it's not really one of the values that's in the manifesto, but one of the guiding principles is to fail fast and often. The goal is to be iterative and not let that fear of failure keep you from iterating and trying new things and being creative, and then using that process of failure to inspect and adapt. Go back and look at how you failed, what you could do better next time and look at it as a true learning process and a path to success. Anne: Wow. Well, that's it. We can go home now because that was, that was such a beauty. That was so valuable, what you just said in that short amount of time. I completely agree. I mean, there's so much learning to be had from failing. Erikka: Yeah, absolutely. There's such a stigma and there's such shame with failure, but you can take that failure, and nobody learns from winning, right? Like -- Anne: True. Erikka: -- you learn from, from when you lose. Anne: Isn't that that's so true. And I think that just happens all the time, really, in an industry where we audition to win jobs -- Erikka: Yes, yes. Anne: -- and we are constantly facing rejection or sometimes we hear nothing at all. So we don't know why we failed or how we failed. Erikka: Oh man. Yeah. As creators, as voiceover talent, as entrepreneurs in general, like there's so much wider, and agile was born from software development, but it really can be applied to so many different areas of life, of business, and just learning how to take that failure and be resilient and, you know, exercise your grit. I just saw the Ted Talk on Angela Duckworth. I don't know if you've heard of her, and she referenced the growth mindset, and you know, how grit is really that willingness to fail and to be wrong so that we can learn from it. And man, if we don't face it every day with auditions -- Anne: Right, that's just the first step. Erikka: -- I don't know what is. Anne: And I love how you expanded it out to be not just the performance aspect of our industry, but also just the entrepreneur mindset. I mean, yeah. I can't tell you after so many years of being in this industry and how many times I've failed, and I liked the whole iterative process of fail fast -- Erikka: Yeah. Anne: -- because I've always thought of it as well. I just kind of changed direction. Right? I never in my brain, I don't say I've failed. I say, well, I need to just change direction. Erikka: Exactly. Anne: And so that way I wouldn't have that stigma that you're talking about of shame and like, oh my God, I failed. I always said, well, I don't think of it as failure. I think of it as just changing direction, which actually seems to follow the agile mindset as well. Erikka: Absolutely it does. Anne: Yeah. Yeah. So how have you learned from that in your voiceover career? Because now how long have you been doing voiceover? Erikka: Yeah, voiceover. I started in September of 2016. Anne: Okay, yup. Erikka: So this will be my sixth year coming up. How have I learned? My goodness. So even when I was doing music, when I was singing and doing all of that, I've did approach it as a business. So I've actually had my LLC since 2015. Anne: Okay. Erikka: So I always approach that as investing in myself and looking for an ROI and trying to make the business money that I was making fund the expenses that I had for the business. It wasn't like that for a long time. I was putting in personal money. Anne: Right? Ugh. Erikka: I had business debts and honestly just in the past year, I'm going to be really vulnerable and transparent right now, I paid off $50,000 of business debt. That was a failure. Anne: But that means so much to me that you were vulnerable like that. And you were able to say that because that's going to really help so many BOSSes out there that look, I remember, and my vulnerability is my first year full-time in voiceover, I made like $12,000 for the year. Erikka: Same, same. Anne: Like it was not -- it was just -- people are like, oh my God, I'm making six figures or whatever. No, my first year, and I worked my tush off that first year. Erikka: Yes. Anne: I've known to be a workhorse myself. I feel like we're soul sisters in that area. Erikka: Yeah. Anne: And questioning in the beginning, like, oh my gosh, am I going in the right direction? I remember sobbing one day; everything just came down on me. And I'm like, I don't even know if this is where I should be. Yeah. And I had given up. Now see, for me, I had given up my career in tech. I was teacher tech. So it was kind of the same thing, kind of that technology and creative in the same area. I finally said to my husband, well, let's move to California, and I'm going to quit my cushy corporate educational, secure tech job and just going to do full-time voiceover. And that was just a leap of faith. I mean, thankfully I had put into motion, we had a plan. I mean, I had that financial cushion that allows you to do it, but I did it in 2008, which was the worst year to like -- Erikka: Oh God, yeah, '08. Anne: -- if you're in tech, you know that if you are out of tech for a couple of months, that's it, you're old, you're dead wood. That's like -- Erikka: Yeah, yeah. Anne: You've lost any kind of -- Erikka: You will not get up to speed. Anne: No. I said, oh God, I just need to rest. Give me like three months. I gave it three months, and then nobody would talk to me. It was 2008. And it was like, wow, you cannot stop in tech because otherwise you just, oh, you're not up to speed. And you know, I couldn't even get interviews. And I was like, okay. So I got to make this voiceover thing work and worked my butt off. And I liked that you said it's years. It's not like an overnight, like getting your ROI is just, you have to have, I think the wherewithal and the grit to kind of just survive that and just keep trying things, failing fast, right. And trying something else. Erikka: And that was the failure is that, you know, I, I knew that I was going to need, you know, different classes to take. And you know, a lot of that was music as well. Like, you know, the, the video that you and I were chatting about before, that costs money. Anne: Yes. Beautiful video. Erikka: You know? Thank you. Thank you. Anne: Yeah. BOSSes, just go to Erikka's page. She's got some really awesome videos, and you have a beautiful voice. So. Erikka: Thank you. Thank you. I mean, quality was really important to me. So, you know, I mean, you'll see it before I paid for it. Anne: So I told my husband, come over here and look at, look how beautifully shot this video is, let alone how awesome the whole performance and the storyline. And I feel like when I watched you singing, like I can see so many parallels between singing, performing, and also voiceover. Because again, if you're all about being meaningful and relatable, and I think authentic, I could see that in the video, in your performance. And I'm like, wow, you translate that into a voiceover performance. And bam, like, that's the magic. That's the magic. Erikka: That was for me because, you know, aspect of music that I always loved the most was that I was able to channel my emotions, not just through the words, but like how, the way that I was singing. And I had no clue how helpful that was, that I had already honed that skill, and that, that was a strength of mine to bring that to voiceover gave me a leg up, you know? Anne: Oh my goodness, yeah. Erikka: Oh my goodness. It was great. I mean, not just the failures in music, I wanted to just, 'cause we're talking about failure too, in voiceover, you mentioned that you had left tech and kind of given up and quit on it. And I did just about walk away from voiceover. Same thing. I was, you know, four years in. I think the best, the most I had made was like $25,000 in a year. And I'm like, you know, I can't keep doing this and I have to shout out Mr. Zellman my guy, my man Cliff -- Anne: Oh yeah. Erikka: Because -- Anne: Who doesn't love Cliff Zellman? Erikka: I love him so much. Any voiceover that somebody got from me after August of 2019 is because of Cliff, because I was going to quit. Anne: Yeah. You want to talk about passion in what somebody does? Cliff is so passionate. Honestly, he's so passionate at what he does and he's so genuine and so authentic, wonderful, wonderful person to work with, if you ever get the chance, highly recommended. Yeah. And I can see him. He's like, he almost could be a motivational coach. Erikka: Right? Anne: Um, you know, because he is that passionate. Now you work, full-time, you say, at your corporate job and you're doing voiceover as well, and you have a family. So what's the fail first kind of -- does that translate into every aspect of your life as well? Erikka: Four letter word yes. Anne: Yup. Erikka: So all of this really kind of kicked up for me when I started working full-time from home with the pandemic. So that's where I was able to, you know, really dive in and give all my other time to voiceover and still be able to maintain both. 'Cause I was home all the time. The failure, there was boy, and I'm still learning about the self-care aspect, but I kind of really put my family on the back burner for awhile. In my relationship with my boyfriend, we had to really work through that. I'm a hard working woman, and he hadn't been with a woman that was as ambitious as I was before. And I kind of dove in probably a little too hard where I had to learn that you have to live life to be able to give good voiceover. Anne: Oh yeah. Right? Erikka: It can't all be the work. Anne: You've got to rebuild that creative -- Erikka: Yeah. Anne: -- yeah, spark I think. And if you want -- Erikka: You've got to have experiences. Anne: Yeah. You're talking to a workaholic, I get it. I totally get it. And you're right. There's always that balance. And I think I need to sit back and continually remind myself of that balance as well, because I'm like, look, I just want to get to this place. I might be retiring in 15 years. And so I don't want to have to worry about how am I going to pay the mortgage or I want to go travel. And so I'm always working towards something, and I think that a modern mindset of fail fast. I love that. You just twisted that for me, fail fast. Give me an example of the fail fast that worked in your favor because rather than well, let's just, I completely give up voiceover. No, let's just change direction. Erikka: I could talk a little bit -- I saw that P-to-Ps was something that you guys recently talked about as well. So my approach and my philosophy, whenever I talk to people about those, is I feel like they are a lead source, just like people go to Google to go look, they go to those sites, and they're essentially search engines. LinkedIn is a search engine. So there are some that maybe work better than others and some that maybe don't work as well. My approach was to track my ROI as I went, if I was to pay for more, a higher level tier. So if I pay for one, and you know, I'm waiting and I'll see if I need to cancel. If I need to read the next year, rather than sort of throwing all your eggs in one basket and saying, I'm just going to do stuff for my agents, trying different avenues as lead generators for work. Anne: Got it. Erikka: And I keep a close eye on that. Anne: And I think it's all about lead generation, isn't it really, to be successful in this voiceover industry? I mean, because the entrepreneurial, like the fear factor is that we don't necessarily know what work is coming in every single day. Erikka: Yeah. Anne: So being able to secure maybe a steady flow of possibilities, right, and us acting on those possibilities, like the auditions or even just having people find us, that is, I think the hardest part about being a voiceover actor and making that a full-time gig is that you don't know where that next paycheck is coming from. You don't know where the next client is coming from, and having a lead generation software, or you consider your P-to-P lead generation software. Erikka: Exactly. Anne: And even your website, like I said, again, I'm going to go back to your website, because I'm worked in tech and I worked on websites back in the day. I would never do it today. I hire people, but knowing a good website when you get to it and establishing know, like, and trust. People hire people they know, like, and trust. Your website is your online personification of your storefront. And that storefront, if presented correctly, can be an immediate, like I immediately said, yes, that girl is who I want to hire. And it was a visual -- I didn't even listen to anything yet. I went to your website and I said, there she is. It's just stunning. It's the attitude, the confidence, the, you know, and now everybody should be rushing over to your website. But it's so true. It's just so well done. I don't know if you had a website before, and for me there's versions of my website that were failure, you know, fail fast and let's switch it up. Let's see what's working. That's another thing that people come in. It is a first impression. And if that first impression is a fail, switch it up, switch it up. Erikka: You're done. Anne: You're done. Switch it up. Switch it up, you're done. Erikka: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Move on to the next. Anne: Yeah. It honestly has such an effect on first impression. Yeah. She looks like someone I could absolutely trust, and she's just got the goods. Like I want to work with her. Erikka: And yeah, another piece of that is it's the fail fast and often. So when you bring up my website, and it's so funny, I appreciate the compliments. I did build that site myself on Squarespace. Anne: Damn. Erikka: Um, and I'm in the process of having it professionally redone because you know, like you said, I just, I'm like, I'm good, you know, the whole back end piece, you know, to make it really fast. That's not my area of genius. So I'm paying people for that, but it still works. Anne: Absolutely. It still works with that first impression. Right? It's just like just bam, that first page. And that made me want to go investigate more. Erikka: Yeah, yeah. And what I've done to kind of figure out what works is playing with the SEO in there, which I know you love to talk about and so do I, because I love passive ways of generating leads. I want to be in the booth. I don't want to go chase clients. Anne: Isn't that the truth? Like it just saves so much time. I'd rather have someone find me first, that whole SEO thing, especially if it's organic, right? That's all fail fast. Erikka: Absolutely. Anne: And keep adjusting and keep evolving. And it's not hard if you're doing organic SEO. And, and I don't know if I would pay people to do SEO other than having somebody maybe writing press releases and you know, doing that kind of thing. That is something again that can really affect your success in the business. And, you know, success begets success. I keep saying that lately. And I think that it just becomes this wonderful ball of energy -- Erikka: Yeah, absolutely. Anne: -- which when it happens, if you do fail, I always think it's failure on a smaller level. Maybe it's not huge, huge fail when you work with fail fast. I think they're tiny failures, and they're always something that you feel that you can overcome. And I think the confidence of that is so much better than, oh my God, I have failed in a huge way. Let's just P-to-P's just don't work. Let's give them up or I can't get any work. Let's give up voiceover, that's a big fail. You don't want the big fails. You want the little fails that you still have the confidence that, you know what, maybe if this doesn't work, I'll just try this next. And that way it keeps the momentum going. Erikka: And that is the exact rationale behind agile is that it's not saying, go ahead and do the big failures. It's saying, if you, if you are more iterative in your approach as to how you're developing or how you're managing your business, or how you're approaching your auditions, then when you have those failures, they're smaller and you can continue them and recover from them faster and find the success. So yeah, you got it, Anne, you know agile. Anne: I love that. Look at that, so now I know agile. Well, how cool is that? So, and then if we apply this to our businesses, and here's where the creative, because I like having the 50-50 brain, right? Because the tech in me says, let's solve a problem. If it's not this it's this, or let's try this. This could be the other solution. And that's where I think that left brain, right brain thing helps because it does help you fail in smaller ways. And sometimes when I work with people who are completely creative or just come from a creative background, it becomes an all or nothing, almost dramatic sort of failure or success. I think that the small fails is where it's helped me in just having a little bit of that tech brain. And that's why I like the entrepreneurship of the industry, because -- so you've got the, kind of the best of both worlds, right? You've always been an entrepreneur, but now you're also working corporate. So there's a dependability factor there for you, right? You go to work every day, you know what to expect. Hopefully you're getting a paycheck every other week or whatever that is. Right? And that gives you the confidence to really take risks in an entrepreneurial endeavor because you've got a little bit of that cushion. Erikka: Exactly. Yep. And that was the goal. And that's what I tell people is there's this stigma of you have to be either/or. You have to either be an entrepreneur or you're not all in if you're still in corporate. And that is absolutely not true. For me, my job is a source of capital. As I am building my business up, I've crossed the, the goal threshold that I've wanted to get to. And now it's a matter of, you know, when is it gonna make sense for me to just focus on the one, but for now it's working. So why not take that money and invest it in your business? If you can manage both, it is okay to have more than one dream. Anne: I completely agree. And that's kind of why, as an entrepreneur, I've divvied up my own business, my entrepreneurial endeavors into multiple segments. It's not just voiceover for me, because again, that is the most unpredictable source of income because sometimes you just don't know, a job won't come in or you won't get the gig. So building up those other revenue streams on the side, whether you're doing it as an entrepreneurship or it's a corporate or a part-time job. I mean, when I went full-time, I did have a part-time job. I was an office assistant, and that gave me the money that helped pay the bills. And so I feel like that is all part of that mindset, that modern mindset of failure that is very similar to agile, where you make the plan to have the finances come in, to give you the confidence, to take the risks in building your entrepreneurial business. And then that will take off like a snowball. Erikka: There are four like core principles of agile. And one of them is responding to change over following a plan. It's not saying that following a plan is not important or that it's not valuable, but it's if you have one of the two you're going to prioritize responding to change. And that is exactly what you were talking about. I know people where they've, you know, they were full-time. I don't really love the full-time voiceover thing because I know other people that do full-time jobs and are full-time voiceover, like six figures. So, but I know people that have decided to go back and get a job because they wanted to pay off debt or they wanted to have more capital to invest in their business. There's nothing wrong with that. You can change along with the conditions and then alter your plan to fit what's happening right now. Anne: Yeah. I love that. I love that. And also, if you are just full-time voiceover, things are evolving. Trends are changing, um, technology, you and I know, technology is coming, and it is going to change the industry just as it changes all aspects of every industry, technology. And I, I love the fact that I have a technology background. I feel like you enjoy your corporate job just as much as you enjoy voiceover. Erikka: I do. Anne: Yeah. Okay. Erikka: I work with such smart people and I always tell them, like, you guys are so much smarter than me. And I just learn from them every day. Anne: It is inspiring. Erikka: It's inspiring. Anne: It's inspiring. I'll tell you. I've had some podcast guests on here that are brilliant, and it exhilarates me. And it gives me confidence and motivation to just go further and delve deeper into my own entrepreneurialship and my voiceover career. So it's, it's really awesome. I love that we have this whole modern mindset failure based on technology. What a really refreshing conversation. Erikka: Thank you. Likewise. I've really enjoyed this, Anne. Anne: Yes. Oh gosh, BOSSes. Go check out Erikka's website. Thank you so much, Erikka, for being with us today. It's really been a pleasure. Erikka: Thank you, Anne, for having me. Thank you to all the BOSSes. You guys, keep rocking on. Anne: Yeah, all right. I'm going to give a great, big shout-out to our sponsor, ipDTL. You too can nerd out with your colleagues and friends and also countless wonderful things. Find out more at ipdtl.com. You guys, have an amazing week and we'll see you next week. Bye. Erikka: Bye. >> Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voboss.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.

Do you consult your inner child when making career decisions? Maybe you should! Anne & Pilar kick off the Boss Voces series at the beginning. They dive into Pilar's journey from young girl singing + mimicking to finance assistant to Colombian telenovela star… More at https://www.voboss.com/pilars-journey-part-1 Transcript >> It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Anne: Hey everyone. Welcome to the VO BOSS podcast. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza. And today I am honored to bring you special guest cohost Pilar Uribe. Pilar is a bilingual voice actor, telenova star, and radio personality. Born and raised in New York city. She broken this show business with roles from Ugly Betty, Poor Pablo, Eternally Manuela, and El Cartel, filmed in Colombia and Miami. She recorded and produced for WLRN Miami South Florida, and now lives in LA where she records voiceover for television, radio, and films, and last, but certainly not least, she has booth kitties, which are so very important. Yay! Pilar, it's a pleasure having you here today. Thank you so much for joining me. Pilar: I am so glad to be here, Anne. This is a real treat. Thank you. Anne: So, first of all, the booth kitty, I have to know, booth kitties, booth kitty? Pilar: Booth kitty. Anne: Booth kitty. Pilar: Booth kitty. Yes. His name is Paco, Anne: Paco. Pilar: Well, his full name is Paco Del Barrio. Anne: Oh. Pilar: Paco Del Barrio, yes. Anne: Oh, Paco. Now, is Paco in the studio with you right now? Pilar: No, he's not. I know he's outside, and he's sitting on top of the desk where I edit looking like, like, how dare you close that door? Anne: How dare you not pay attention to me? Pilar: Exactly. I need a window for the door. Anne: As you know, we now both have booth kitties and that is a major plus for, I think, productivity in the booth to have booth kitties. They really help you in your daily -- Pilar: Absolutely. Anne: -- your daily booth recordings. Pilar: Yeah, they're very, yes, they're very, they're very observant, and they're very, how can I say this? Anne: They direct well. Pilar: They teach you, they teach you a lot about you as a voice actor. Anne: I agree. Pilar: We'll get into that. Anne: I agree. I think that could be an episode actually, how our pets help us learn about ourselves. For sure. For sure. Pilar: Exactly. Anne: So you're not even like a triple threat. You're like a quadruple, like, you're like multiple, multiple threats, TV, radio, voiceover. Tell us about how you started in the business? Because I think you've got a wonderful story to tell, and we can all learn a lot about how you evolved into your voiceover career. Pilar: Okay. So how much time do you get? Anne: Well, this first episode is about only 25 minutes. So. Pilar: Okay, I'll be quick. Now, I was born and bred in New York. Both my parents are from Colombia, a little town called Ibagué. And, um, I spoke Spanish until I was five. When I went to grade school, high school, I was in all the plays. I played the angel. I, you know, I did all kinds of things, singing groups. I was in the choir. I was in -- Anne: Me too. Pilar: Yeah. Right. You know, you do it all. Anne: Choir thing and you know, that creative. stuff. Pilar: Exactly. Exactly. I went to a girls school, and so we were in this choir, and I was just in this thing called Triple Trio. And we would go to, we would go to boys schools. We would go to boarding schools and sing there and have crushes on all the boys. Anne: Of course. Pilar: So in college I majored in theater and kept studying voice and did musical theater and just all kinds of things. Anne: But not necessarily voiceover, right? You're thinking -- Pilar: No, no, it was all, it was all musical theater or -- Anne: Musical theater. Pilar: Yeah. Anne: Because you sing too. That was the other threat. 'Cause I actually happened upon one of your social media posts the other day. And you were singing. So. Pilar: Yes, I'm really into like the -- so that's the thing. I was kind of born and raised on singing a capella because I would sing with my sister. We had a little duet going, and she would play with the guitar. Sometimes we would play the guitar and sometimes we would just do two voices. So there's this great app called acapella. And I loved just dubbed myself over and over again into like four part harmony. It's so much fun. So in college, I kept singing. I kept with these groups, and I majored in theater, came back to New York. And of course it's a different story now, you know, once you're looking for a job, and I thought, well, okay, I'll, I'll go the corporate route. And I worked for Harper's Bazaar -- Anne: Oh wow. Pilar: for -- yeah. For two and a half years. And I, I totally lived the Devil Wears Prada life. Anne: I was gonna say! Pilar: Oh yeah, all that stuff is true. Anne: In New York too. Pilar: In New York. So I, I was an assistant to an editor, and it was like, oh, what an experience that was. Anne: I can imagine. Pilar: Yes. Yeah. That that's a whole other, that's a whole other story. Then I went to, I moved to Nine West and I started working to helping in design shoes. And all throughout this time, I was taking acting classes because I thought, let me just keep that muscle going. Even though it just, it seemed so far away at the time. And I got laid off. I was the last hired, first fired. There was a whole financial shakeup, and I thought, okay, this is the time to start working on my acting. So I got my headshot and resume together, and I started going out on auditions. And in the meantime I got married. Anne: That's a lot happening. Seems like a lot happening -- Pilar: Yes. And I cleared my throat. Anne: -- short period of time. Pilar: Yes, absolutely. And I cleared my throat because that was a whole experience in itself. So I did theater. I actually, I did "A Chorus Line," and I was probably the only person -- I played Diana Morales, who was the Hispanic character. And she was the one who said, "and I felt nothing, simply nothing." It's such a great song. I love that song. Anne: Lovely. Pilar: I was the only one who could not do a double pirouette, but I got away with it. That's like a requirement for "A Chorus Line," but I could not do a double pirouette to save my life. And if you try doing it, you will fall over. I can tell you right now because I can't, I just, every time I've tried it, I just fall over. I think I did it once in my life, but that's it. So I did a couple of films. I did student films, and I did extra work on "One Life to Live" and "All My Children," and I think there was one called "Passions." Anne: Wow. Pilar: And so that I had so much fun because of course I used to watch those shows, and I used to watch "General Hospital" actually in college. Anne: Oh, of course. Who didn't? Pilar: Remember -- yeah, like, what was it the, uh, the, yeah, there were these scenes, which we can't even say on the air. Anne: I just read something about Luke, that they finally wrote him off. Pilar: Yes, yes, yes! The Luke and Laura scene. Do you remember the Luke and Laura scene? Anne: Yes. Of course, of course. Pilar: Everybody talked about that. Anne: There has to be a moment in time. Like that is, that is ingrained into like the moment in time, uh, television history. And is this what brought you in -- the telenova star? So is that leading us to that place or? Pilar: Yes, yes. Anne: Okay. Pilar: Absolutely. It is. I do have a point and I will -- Anne: No, no, I totally get it. Pilar: So I started seeing in New York that, you know, everybody was hustling, like I was, and I was doing extra work on like a film with Michael J. Fox. And I got to touch Arnold Schwarzenegger's jacket, but I was always, you know, background extra. And I thought, wouldn't it be great to work in a job that is kind of a 9 to 5? And I realized television is that. So I had that dream, and that's why I did the extra work, because I, you know, I wanted to see what was going on in those soap operas. So I separated, and I thought, okay, I'm done. I'm going to go to take a little vacation and go to where my extended family lives, in Colombia, in Ibagué. And I go, and I stay with my cousin, and the third night I'm there, we decide to go to a fortune teller, and fortune tellers are big in Colombia. And I've, I just, I love them. Like they're just so much fun. So I go to this fortune teller, and she reads the way I smoke a cigarette of all things. So she's looking at my ashes as I'm smoking a cigarette, she gives me a cigarette, I start smoking it. And she says to me, pack your bags, get ready because you're going to be really famous. Anne: Ooh. Pilar: And I was like, what? Anne: Who doesn't like to hear that? Pilar: I just, I, but I was so, you know, I was so like, you know, I was so -- I was depressed, and I was going through the whole divorce proceedings. I had been working for Morgan Stanley as an assistant. And, you know, that was just the, the world of finance. I didn't even understand -- Anne: Oh, from fashion to finance. Pilar: Yes, exactly. And then she says this to me, and I'm like, oh, maybe I'm going to be a shoe designer. Maybe I'm going to be the next, you know, Manolo Blahnik. And I was like, I can't, I couldn't imagine that one at all. So my cousin and I, we left and we just laughed it off. So I, I, so I stayed a couple of months, a couple of extra months, and I thought, well, maybe I could live in Colombia. So I go back to New York after three months, and I'm, I get my reel together. And I met a party at my parents' house, and there's this really good friend of my mother's. And she says to me, have you read the book, The Celestine Prophecy? It's by James Redfield. And I was like, no. So I read it. And it was a game changer for me. That's all I can say. It, it just completely changed my perspective. And I started thinking, well, maybe I could do this. Maybe I could work in television. And I had a very good friend of mine who was my vocal coach. And he kind of turned into my mentor, and he started telling me, he said, you know what? I want you to start visualizing what it would be like to stand in front of the camera. I want you to see what it would feel like, what the lights would feel like on you, what it would sound like, the people walking around you, how it would taste if like you were drinking something on set, what it would smell like, and what you would hear and what you, you know, all the five senses and really do like a little meditation about it. And I wasn't into meditation back then at all. But The Celestine Prophecy talks about that a little bit, a lot, actually. So I have my reel, I speak to a couple of networks. I write letters and there are two that are interested, and one of them says, okay, great. We are interested. We want to see you. So I packed my bags, and I pay for my ticket, and I go down to Colombia. Anne: So when you say you wrote the networks, okay. So that's a very broad description. So what specifically? 'Cause that's like, you're marketing yourself. I mean, you've been marketing yourself I feel since you were out of the womb. Right? So in reality, you're sending letters and what are you saying in those letters? Hey, I'd like to meet you? I have acting experience? Pilar: Yes. Anne: I'd like to meet you? Pilar: Exactly. Exactly. Actually you just said, I didn't even realize that, you just turned the button on for me. Anne: Yeah. Pilar: So I was constantly doing that without even realizing. Anne: Without knowing. Pilar: Yeah, because what I had was, it was just a letter with my real back then. It was VHS. Okay? Anne: Yup. Pilar: So I'm really dating myself, you know, saying I have this experience, I have this training, and I'd really like to do TV. And one of the things I learned a long time ago was you can talk about your strengths. There's no need to lie, but you don't have to say, I don't know how to do this. Anne: Sure. Pilar: You can say, I'm very eager to learn. I'm very eager to get into the business because I realized as I was going down there that yes, I had worked in television as an extra. I had worked in film by then. And so I understood how the camera worked. 'Cause it was -- we worked on an entire summer, over a period of weekends on a feature film. So I knew how it worked, but television is very different from film because it's like, boom, boom, boom, here's this scene, set it up, do the scene. And then you've got a whole bunch of other things to do. So it's a lot busier than film. So I didn't, you know, long shots, you know, close-ups, I was still very much of a newbie. So I basically just concentrated on what my skills were. And these two people, they kind of said, yes, you know, one of them said, there's a possible role for you. And the other one was like, okay, well we'll meet you when you come down here. 'Cause I realized I had to go down there. Like they weren't going to sit there and say -- Anne: Sure. Pilar: -- oh yeah, we'll hire you. So that's why I, I made the decision. I packed my bags, and I go. So I get to Colombia and I'm staying with a friend in Bogotá now. 'Cause now I'm staying in the capital. Before I had been staying in Ibagué where my family is from, and I call up the producer and uh, I make an appointment and I get there and I'm like, I'm, I'm really excited. And I'm like, okay, this is it. This is the start of something big. And I get there and she said, that show has been scrapped. And she points to her, this shelf and all the episodes are there. And she's like, that's been scrapped. They're writing a new show. You're going to have to audition for it. And there's nothing, you know, I don't, I don't have anything for you. Anne: Yeah. Pilar: So I'm like, oh my God. So what do I do? I start envisioning what my life is going to be like. So I start making like a little list. Okay. I need an apartment. I need a job. That's my most important thing. I need an apartment and I need a car. So the first thing I would do is that I would call her on a weekly basis, this producer, and I would say, hi, how are you? How's it going? And she knew immediately why I was calling. She like, I don't have anything for you. So I was like, okay, great. That's done. Then I started going out and looking at apartments in Bogotá of where I wanted to live. I mapped out, I walked around a lot. I, you know, I was, this was basically, I was friends were taking mirrors, going in taxis or I was walking, and I found an area that I wanted to live in. And so everybody posted their little -- they did newspapers, but they, you know, they would post it up on the window, and I would look and I would take a look, and I finally found one and I was like, oh my gosh, this is really great. Did the same thing with cars. I went to the car dealerships. I looked at all these cars, and I found the car that I wanted, and I keep calling this woman. And so once a week, and then one day she called me. Anne: Here's the thing. You must've had a good relationship with her if you actually spoke to her, right? Pilar: Yes, yes. Anne: Usually producers, if they're very busy, that somebody else is either taking their calls for them or screening their calls. So if you were actually able to talk to her, you must have had a great relationship, which I think that's a key factor. Pilar: We developed it. It wasn't something that just started out that way. I mean, I always went through her secretary first. Yeah. So it wasn't like -- this was something that developed on a regular basis, but I wasn't like stalking her -- Anne: Right. Pilar: -- or being obnoxious about it. Anne: Right, right, right. Pilar: I was just saying, hey, I just wanted to see. And because I was, you know, this was the lead -- Anne: Keeping top of mind. Pilar: Exactly. Anne: See how I'm -- we're transforming all of this into the current day marketing. Pilar: I love it. I love it. This is awesome. Anne: This is also staying top of mind with the producer. There you go. Pilar: Exactly. Top of mind. So she calls me and she says, I have something for you. And I'm like, oh my God, this is it. This is it. I get to the studio. It turns out it's one episode of a children's show. Anne: Okay. Pilar: And I'm like, oh my gosh, I can't live on this. Anne: Yeah. Pilar: What are you going to do? And I talked to the director, that director, and I kind of, we just started talking, and you know, she knew who I was and she said, oh no, no, no, no, no. You're still being considered for this new show. Don't worry about it because I actually -- just going back a little bit -- I had auditioned for the new show. So, so, okay. So she called me up and she said, I want you to audition for the show. I auditioned for the show. And then she calls me. She said, I have this for you. And it was a children's show. So I was like, oh no, what am I going to do? And she said, no, no, no, no. You're still -- the director for the children's show said, no, you're still being considered. Because this was much smaller than what it is today. You know, in the very first time I went and I auditioned, it was very different from the way I auditioned in New York. So, you know, in New York you get given sides and now you memorize it, but you, you're allowed to have it in your hand. And back there, you, you know, you definitely had to memorize the whole thing. And I was panicked and this guy helped me and it was great. A couple of other weeks go by. And then they call me in for a second audition and that's with the director. He was very stern. And I was really nervous. A couple of weeks later, she called me, and she said, you got the job. So all this work that I had been doing, I, you know, I'm shortening it. I had been looking for the apartment. I'd been -- Anne: You'd been having a vision and meditating -- Pilar: Exactly. Anne: And manifesting. Pilar: Exactly. So once I had all that ready to go, when the call came, and this is over a period of three months that this happened, I was like, okay, great. Now it's time. I can get the car, and I can get the apartment. I can rent the apartment out because now I, now I have somewhere to go because I have a job. Anne: Sure. Pilar: And so actually it was really funny. The head of the network called me, and I, I -- it's kind of amazing that I think about this now -- he called me and he said, I, I, I have to tell you that -- and he kind of called me apologetically. And he said, you're going to be really -- this character, you're gonna be really ugly, and you're going to be really nasty. Anne: All right. Pilar: So I was like, please, you know bring it on. Right? So we start filming, and it's a whole new experience. So I have to start from the beginning again, and I'm learning camera angles, and I'm learning how the business works. And the show comes out and literally, Anne, overnight -- the show comes out like let's say on a Thursday. And the last show that what they did is that they dovetailed the old show, which was one of the most well-known shows in the history of Colombian television. It was called "Café -- Café con Aroma de Mujer." they're redoing it now. And so then ours came in. So we had that huge audience, which had seen the show, and everyone had been glued to the television. And then they saw our show. Anne: Right. Pilar: And I was the first one who spoke on the show. It was really cool. Anne: And you were an ugly, horrible personality, right? Pilar: Exactly. I was just, I snarled, I was a snarler. And so it's kind of like a good luck thing. It's kind of like when somebody says that's a kind of a good luck thing in a film when somebody says the name of the film in a film, it's good luck. And in television, in Colombia, it's like the first person who speaks, that's a good little sign. It's like a good luck charm. So, so I was the first person who spoke, and then literally the next day, I was being recognized -- Anne: Wow, that's great. Pilar: -- on the street. Anne: That's fantastic. Pilar: It was the weirdest thing. And so I was like, oh my gosh, what that lady said was true, that fortune teller. Anne: Right? Pilar: A year before practically it came out. Yeah. It was over a year that she had said that. And I thought, this is so interesting. So basically I manifested my way into this job. Anne: Well, I love that. I think there's a lot to be said. I mean, I, it's a new year, you know, and, and I talk all about how being grateful and then really writing down and thinking and manifesting and about what your goals are. I really believe that it comes true. You actually incorporate the steps to make it true. And interestingly enough, notice how I kept noticing all the marketing things that you were doing, which you weren't even realizing at the time. You were developing a relationship. Right? You were keeping top of mind. You were setting goals in place so that you could achieve them to get where you needed to be. So, congratulations. I mean, that's, that's a great story. Pilar: Anne, where were you, where were you in my life? I wish I could have called you out, like brought you back from the future in. My life would be like, you know, but yeah, exactly. So I started working, and I basically did this over and over and over again -- Anne: Yeah. Pilar: -- because in Colombia, telenovelas only last a year. Anne: Oh, that's what I was just going to ask. How long did the show go on, a year? Pilar: Yep. So yeah, because it was actually a little bit more. We do, we did a lot of episodes. Anne: Is it a daily? Like a -- Pilar: Yeah, yeah. Anne: Okay. Daily for a year? Pilar: So it's a daily, but it's not because it's actually prime time. 'Cause it always came out in prompt time. So they're, they're not exactly soap operas. They're, they're like prime time soap, operas. Let's put it that way. That's what they call them. And really they're more like series. Anne: Yeah. Pilar: Because they're not, they have a beginning, middle, and an end. Anne: Got it. Pilar: They don't last for 20 years like they do here -- Anne: Yeah. Pilar: -- or 30 years. So, you know, there's a story. So, you know, it's like a poor girl meets rich guy. Then he does something to her, and then she makes it on her own. And then she's great. And then they live happily ever after, or there's a tragedy, you know, and so, you know, all kinds of different stories. And I got to play all kinds of different characters. I became known as the bad girl because I was one of many bad girls on that first show with, "Eternamente Manuela," and then I became this super duper evil person. And it's so funny because on Instagram -- Anne: On that show or on other shows? Pilar: No, on that show. Anne: Okay. Pilar: That's what really established me as the resident bad girl. They showed "Eternamente Manuela" after many years. And there're all these people on Instagram who were like, oh my gosh, that was you. You were such a bad girl. And they're constantly giving me snippets and stuff that I didn't see. It's so funny. 'Cause like when you're working, you don't have time to watch your own show. You just don't. That's one of the things that -- so I never saw the show, that the entire show. Anne: You have archives that you can post, or is it mostly your fans that are posting -- Pilar: It's a little bit of both. I have some that I post, but most of the time, they show me things, and I'm like, oh my gosh. And I remember filming it, but I don't remember, you know? So it's really fun. It's really great to like kind of like walk down memory lane. I was doing that a lot this past year. Anne: Yeah. That would make sense that you would be, if it's like a daily thing, and you're in and you're just working all the time, it would make sense that you don't always get to watch. It's like, interestingly enough, the VO BOSS podcast only has weekly episodes, but I don't always get a chance to listen to them after we produce them. So every once in a while, when I get a free moment in my car, I'll listen, and I'll be like, oh, okay. And it brings the memories back. Well, that's a pretty decent episode. Pilar: Yeah, exactly. And then you can look back and go, oh yeah. Right. That's interesting. Oh goodness. Anne: When we're in the middle of the manifestation, we're in the middle of the execution, right, you just have to give it up to faith that we're doing a good job and that our listeners and fans are drinking it all in and liking it. And if it were anything, otherwise they would let us know. So. Pilar: Exactly. Anne: Yep. Pilar: Exactly. Barrel along. Anne: All right. So you are a star, a telanova star. And are you doing any other, are you doing any other shows at this point, other than your daily series? Pilar: Well, I did the first show, then I go and I do a second show. And then my second show, I'm playing a gringa. So "hablo así, hablo muy trabada así, con un acento así." And I just, I had a ball. I dyed my hair blonde. I was a blonde. Anne: Wow. Pilar: I was a blonde, Anne. Anne: Wow! Pilar: Oh my gosh. Blondes do have more fun. I'm here to tell you blondes do have more fun. I had so much fun doing that show, and I did so much improvisation on that show. It was amazing. 'Cause I had the latitude. I would sing because I played this housewife who's being cuckolded by her husband who fell -- who falls in love with the lead. So I sit there and I sing away, and I start singing away in English. And it was so much fun to improv on that show because I could do it. And they would let me, 'cause I was playing an American who spoke Spanish. At the same time -- that was a nightly show -- at the same time, I was doing a series, which was an hour weekly. I got a wig. I got a wig for the show. And so I was this very -- the other woman, she had -- American with an accent. She had blue nail polish. She was, she was really cool. She was really modern, wore these little mini skirts. The other series, she was a recovering alcoholic. So she was very prim and proper lawyer. She had a little sort of Lulu Brooks brown haired bangs. And there were people who did not know that I was in both shows, and that was so much fun to do. So then I added that to the roster at the same time. Anne: So you're doing all TV at this point. Pilar: All TV, but here's the thing. I'm doing a lot of interviews. Anne: Makes sense. Pilar: The interviews, I love doing live interviews, but the way -- when I would have the most fun was when I was doing live interviews were when I was doing radio. I had so much fun doing radio interviews. So I always asked my agent -- like I really liked doing them because there was just something so much fun about the spoken word. So I, I keep doing these shows, and I, I had a band going where we would do these jazz nights every Friday night at this place. And I added theater. And at one point I was doing two shows and a musical. It was a Colombian musical. And so I was doing everything at once. And then at some point along the lines, I did an animated show. So they asked me to do an animated show. And so that, I got to do like a whole, that was a whole different world for me. And that's when I really kind of -- Anne: Started voiceover maybe. Pilar: Yes, that's when I started voiceover. Thank you. Anne: Yeah. Pilar: And um -- Anne: Sounds like voiceover to me. Pilar: And it, it was so much fun though. 'Cause it was different voices and I got to really play around with it. And since they didn't really know what they wanted, I got to do the voices. I got to give them voices. Anne: So let me ask you a question. Now you're doing an animated show, and you're doing voices. Had you in your acting, your previous acting experience or had you had opportunities to do voices or were you training so that you could create different voices for different characters for acting? Pilar: None whatsoever. Anne: Okay. So these were -- Pilar: No, no. Anne: -- just things that you just brought out to life and -- Pilar: They just asked me to do it. So I did. So they would say, well, let's try this. She's a little bit younger. So I would, I would do a younger voice. And so let's try this person 'cause they're this loud, obnoxious teacher. So I would do this loud, obnoxious teacher. Anne: Had you played around with voices -- Pilar: No. Anne: -- when you were young? Pilar: That's not true. My mother would say absolutely because I used to be -- I was a great mimicker from the time I was a kid. Anne: Got it, got it. Pilar: I had a very good friend of mine's mother was German. So I would speak with the German accent and you know, I hear nothign, I see nothing. Anne: Yeah. Pilar: I would -- I was a great mimic when I was a kid. Anne: You know what's so interesting. I just want to break in a little bit. Pilar: Yeah. Anne: Because I find that where we are in life today, a lot of people that, that kind of tend to follow their heart, follow their dreams end up doing a lot of the same things that they do when they're children. So if you're mimicking, right, when you're a child, like I taught my dolls and I was this teacher for 20 years in front of the classroom. And I do e-learning today. So it's just so interesting that things that I loved when I was a kid, I just brought right through to my, up to my adulthood and to what I bring to my work. So, you mimicking and probably you acted. Did you -- I put on little plays too. Pilar: I can so see you doing that, Anne. I don't know why. I can see you as like a little mini Anne with, with her little glasses -- Anne: As a mini Anne. Pilar: -- just kind of, sort of like a little, like a little chorus and kind of like conducting your dolls. Right? Anne: Yeah. I did. I loved it. I loved it. And I brought it right up. I still do that today. It's so interesting. I think if everybody looks back to their childhood, if they're following their heart or, you know, I always say following my gut. I do both. I do it in my business and in my personal life, I follow my gut, and I really believe that we bring those things from our childhood, and it brings me a lot of joy. I'm pretty sure it brings you joy too. Pilar: I agree. That's so interesting that you bring that up. I really, and truly -- I hadn't, I kind of knew that on an intellectual level, but if I, if I really feel it in my gut, that is absolutely where I get joy -- Anne: Yeah. Pilar: -- was from when I was a kid, and I would do that and I would make other people laugh. I would make my mother laugh all the time, you know? Anne: Yeah. Pilar: Wow. Anne: So then yeah, so now you've transitioned, or not necessarily transitioned, but you've added to your repertoire some animation and voiceover. Pilar: Yes. Anne: Wow. Pilar: Yes. Anne: Without even knowing it. Pilar: It was just, it was, it was there. The opportunity was there, because I lived in a -- Bogotá is a place where everything is together. That's not really the case anymore, but it used to be that Los Angeles where it was where you did film and television, New York was where you did more theater. Anne: Yeah. Pilar: And theater, yes. Theater, was in the 50's, there was more television. And then I don't know why or, or what I mean, and I don't know the history of this, but it just became more of a theater town, and you know, then, you know, slowly but surely, they started doing the studios in Queens, and then more film and television came, and now there's a whole bunch more voiceover. And there always was that, but I feel like LA was the big place for all that stuff. And so Bogotá kind of did -- had everything. So I had a lot more opportunity -- Anne: Interesting. Pilar: -- to, to kind of -- Anne: Broaden. Pilar: Yeah, yeah. Broaden my horizons that way. So I basically just went from show to show to show. I never really stopped. There was one show that I did. It was the last show that I got to play a bolero and ranchera singer. I was hired on the basis of, I actually did a, uh -- back in, I was on a, this thing called Restaurant Row in New York, Cabaret Row. It's called, Don't Tell Mama. And I did this show called, um, I can't remember what it was. It was, it was a revue. And I played this character called Nora the Dominatrix. There was this one song that I had to sing. And it was "you ache for the touch of my lips dear, but much more for the touch of my whips, dear. I can raise welts. Like nobody else, as we dance to the domination tango." Anne: Love it. Pilar: So it was, it was so hysterical. And I was, I was all decked out in this whole dominatrix costume. And that was a whole, I actually, to get the costume, when I lived in New York, I went to Patricia Field, which back then, which was on 8th Street. And I walked in and I had to look for like, like I was looking for, I didn't know what I was really looking for. And this one, beautiful, beautiful, tall transvestite comes and says, can I help you, dear? And she had this long blonde hair. And so I'm like, I have no idea what I'm looking for, 'cause I don't know what a dominatrix looks like. I'm supposed to dress like a dominatrix. So there's this woman and she's kind of mousy. She's got a long raincoat on, and she's looking around and the salesperson's helping me. And then she comes up to me and she says, what are you looking for? And I said, well, I don't really know what a dominatrix looks like. She said, I'm a dominatrix. And I look at her and I'm like, oh, and I'm like, do you mind if I get my pen and paper out? She starts telling me what a dominatrix does. She gave me all this information. So I get the outfit and, you know, dog collar, little short shorts, you know, the whole thing, the fishnet stock and a whip. Anne: Yup, yup. Pilar: So for the audition that I did for the, back to what we're talking about, for this show, I wore that whole costume, and they were like, you got the job. Anne: Yep. Pilar: So -- Anne: You walked in, you got it. Pilar: Exactly. And I'm wearing like a little, a little blonde wig. So I had to sing when it was my turn to sing and I don't know why this is, but it was, it was really kind of a unique situation. It was my responsibility. So I would hire these guys, which of course the network paid for. But I, I would hire these -- a mariachi band, and they would come to the studio, and we would sing this song or wherever. And then I would learn the song for that week. And so it was like a little performance. So it was like, I was doing like a little play within the show, and it was such a great experience because I didn't have much time. So I had to -- it was like learning copy. Anne: Sure. Pilar: It's like, I had to, I had to learn the song quickly and have it as if I -- Anne: And deliver. Pilar: And deliver. So it was like, it was all of what I'm describing was just great practice for what I do today. Anne: So now do you come back to New York after a certain amount of time? Or how long are you down in Colombia? Pilar: Nine years. Anne: Okay. Pilar: I'm in, I'm in Colombia for nine years. And so I do all these different things, and my father passed away in '99, and that's when I realized kind of wanted to be near my mother and my sister. But I'm thinking, I don't know if I want to go back to New York. I'd like to try something different. And I thought, well, and I'd always been in love with Miami, because it was so beautiful -- Anne: Yup. Pilar: -- and just like, Ugh. So I wanted to go to LA, but I was too scared. I was like, it's just too big. It's just, there's just too much. I thought, let me try Miami. It's another market. Let me see what it's like. Anne: All right. Pilar: So I get to Miami, I have cousins there and I, I live with them, and I'm like, well, you know, I've been a telenovella actress for the past nine years. I've got all this body of work. I'm set, and I get there, and I don't get one job for a year. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm starting again. Anne: And here starts your life in Miami. Pilar: Yeah. Anne: And actually this is a good segue for part two. Part two. So yeah. So we're going to be continuing the story, which is a very interesting story, because I can draw so many parallels to see how you've evolved, how you've grown, and it really draws so many parallels to the voiceover industry and how you can grow as an artist anywhere really, whether you're doing voiceover acting, in television, theater on the stage; it really is such a wonderful, I guess, reveal, Pilar, of your career and how we can, we can learn from that. So I'd like to give a great, big shout out right now to our sponsor, ipDTL. You too can connect and network like a BOSS. You can find out more at ipdtl.com. Pilar, I cannot wait for our next episode to continue the conversation. So thank you so much for being with me today. And we will come back for part two in the next episode. Take care, BOSSes. Bye! Pilar: Thank you, Anne. This was a pleasure. >> Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voboss.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.

Picture this: a boot camp that teaches essential marketing skills + lands you a job in 6 months. Unheard of…until now. Anne is joined by special guest Mehak Vohra for a bonus Modern Mindset episode. They cover education reform, the trials and triumphs of entrepreneurship, dropping out of school, and running for mayor… Transcript >> It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Anne: Hey everyone. Welcome to the VO BOSS podcast. I'm your host Anne Ganguzza. And today I'm thrilled to welcome special guest Mehak Vohra, CEO and founder of SkillBank to the show. Mehak started her career as a computer science student at Purdue University and after her sophomore year dropped out at the ripe old age of 19 and moved to San Francisco. Her goal was to build the most scalable marketing agency in the world. And I think she's done an amazing job so far. She ran Jamocha Media for four years, and at her peak, she was generating one to 2 million views per month on LinkedIn. That's some goals for us BOSSes out here. For herself and her clients, she has probably more than 30,000 followers by now, because the last time I checked your bio was a few months ago, on TikTok. She's the youngest person to ever run for mayor in San Francisco's history. Mehak, thank you so much for joining me today. Mehak: Thank you so much for having me. Anne: I'm so excited because as I've been trying to get to interview you, because I'm so impressed with what you have done in such a short amount of time in your short career. And I noticed in your bio, you made a point to mention that you had dropped out of college after your sophomore year. And I can only imagine that you must've had a pretty good reason for doing that, and that you were maybe not getting what you needed at the time or realize that there were bigger and better opportunities outside of college for you. So would you mind speaking to us about that? Mehak: Yeah, for sure. So, you know, I grew up in a family where it was super important to go to college. My parents both went through multiple years of schooling. So for me to turn around and be like, hey guys, I don't think that college is the right spot for me, I had to really sit back and think about like what what's really important to me and where -- what's the direction that I want to go into. And from what I've seen, especially within the marketing world and the startup world, uh, it's not that important to have a degree anymore. People want to see that you're, you're experienced, you're putting yourself out there, you're trying new things, and that's how you're supposed to build your resume today. And I just realized that I wasn't doing that in college. So I was able to make that point to my parents and just say that, hey, I actually think I'm going to learn a lot more moving out to San Francisco, doing things on my own, putting myself out there than I am if I sat in the classroom. So it was, it was a hard thing to, to show them. But at the end of the day it was, it was the right move for me because I'm just not a person who learns well listening to someone talk at me for a few hours. Anne: Very interesting. You know, and as we have discussed before, I have a long, a long career in, and I actually worked for a magnet school, which yeah, actually did a hands-on, project-based curriculum, which worked really well for the students who were just really motivated in wanting to go do things and, and run the world, kind of, kind of thing. So it worked really well. So I understand that mentality a lot. And I do believe that there needs to be some changes in our educational system to serve the students better. And I feel like you have probably encapsulated that with SkillBank, and prior to that with your other media companies. So talk to us a little bit about your Jamocha Media company first, and then I'd love to hear about SkillBank. Mehak: Yeah. So Jamocha Media started off as a vehicle for me to learn on other people's dime. So if I wanted to build websites or if I wanted to create content, or I was trying to pick up a social media client, whatever it might be, I just put them all under Jamocha Media as a client. And over the span of four years, we slowly were able to start to scale things up, going from making websites for people to running the social media accounts, to building people a presence on LinkedIn. And after about three or four years of working on Jamocha, we had basically figured out a formula around how to get people a viewership on LinkedIn. So we were, like you said, we were pulling in about anywhere from like 2 to 3 million views a month in the platform. And it was, it was really interesting to see how things grow online and how like, once you figure out that formula and that way to get things to work, you can blow anyone up and help anyone build a brand and a presence online. So that's really what we focused on at Jamocha. Towards the end of my time working on it, it was how do we, how do we at scale help a lot of people build their personal brands online? It was just a way for me in the beginning to experiment and just to try out different things. And slowly we just niched down into LinkedIn. Anne: Well, you know, I think it really says something too. I know that when I was an adjunct professor, I was teaching social media at a college, and it was really a difficult thing to do because I had to keep creating new curriculum in order to stay current. And that was something that was so difficult to get through the paperwork, the process, the revisions, and, and even to get funding for, because I was teaching, gosh, it was how many years ago, Facebook ads when they were just coming out. And it was hard to actually teach unless I could actually do it myself. And so I had to fund my own ads so that I could actually show how that worked. And so I completely understand that there's definitely, in terms of like keeping things current and relevant and trying to get that through the university level educational system, it's just very difficult. So you really found a great place, I think, and something that's very needed for today, for today's entrepreneur. Mehak: Yeah. That's, that's really cool. And you know, it's, it's one of those things that as I was building out Jamocha like you said, things were constantly changing. Anne: Yeah. Mehak: The algorithms were changing, the way that people were interacting with LinkedIn was changing. And that's what eventually actually was the reason why I ended up leaving Jamocha and not wanting to work on it anymore was because it was -- over time, it was just became so much harder to scale because things were changing so quickly. And I realized if we couldn't scale the services that we were giving people, because we were so dependent on the platforms, maybe we could scale the people that were giving the services. And that's what led me into wanting to start SkillBank, because we realized if we could teach people how to learn, and how to stay on top of the trends, and how to stay on top of social media, and how these platforms work, then maybe we can, we can build a scalable agency that way. And yeah, that's, that's how a SkillBank was born. Anne: Excellent. Excellent. I love the idea behind that, because it really is something that I feel that it's a constant process where to be successful out there and to keep up, you constantly have to be learning. And there are so many people, creatives in the entrepreneur world, that are not necessarily technologically inclined, nor are they inclined to understand marketing. That's not really their background. So I think having an educational platform that can really teach people how to learn and teach people and get them started, I think that's a wonderful idea. Tell me a little bit about the unique program that you have with Skillbank. What does it offer? Mehak: Yeah, so we actually started off teaching just growth marketing. So like -- actually not just; it was like everything under the sun; it was very general. So we taught paid media, so Facebook ads and Google ads. We taught organic marketing. We taught social media, uh, and it was always in 15 weeks. And we ran our first five cohorts doing that. And what we found was is our students that were leaving the program were -- they're having some trouble finding jobs. You know, they were like, this is Jack of all trades. They just didn't quite understand one thing really well. And it was hard for them to take that with them into their next job because they just didn't learn a specific thing. So that's when we decided to pivot. So now we just teach paid media. We just teach Facebook ads and Google ads over the span of 15 weeks. And within that time period, we get you agency ready and connect you with agencies at the end of the program. So that way we can help you land a full-time job doing paid media or being a paid media specialist or an account executive at an agency. Anne: Wow. That's fantastic. That's even above and beyond just teaching you how to do paid ads. So that's fantastic you even place people. And so how long have you been doing this program and how have your placements gone? Mehak: Yeah, so we, we just moved over into doing paid media in March. Anne: Okay. Mehak: So right now, based on the people that are, when someone graduates from the program, we're seeing about a 70-75% placement rate right now. Anne: Nice. Mehak: It hasn't been a full 180 days yet. And that's usually the industry standard for graduating from something and then landing a job. But we're expecting that number to definitely rise and get a lot higher. The curriculum is also getting better and better. We're using previous students that are coming back to us saying that, hey, you know, we wish maybe we would have learned this. And then we add that into our curriculum. So it's a really iterative process. And because the classes are so short, we really iterate it with the students as well. So every cohort so far has just been getting better and better and better. Anne: So are you offering these classes, are they -- to the general public? Mehak: Yes. Anne: I mean, what is your typical student look like? Are they young? Are they people who've been out in the industry for a while, and they come and they, they're like, I really need to know how to do paid? How, how is that working? Mehak: Our ideal demographic of the student is someone that is just ready to work. They're motivated, they're ready to land that job. We've taken people that are working at Starbucks like 50 to 60 hour weeks to now working at an agency full-time within the span of four to five months. So if you, if you know that marketing is something that you want to get into, you're motivated, you're willing to put the work in, we'll help you get to that next step. I think a lot of people come to SkillBank expecting us to be a silver bullet. You know, like they'll come into the program. We'll, we'll just hand you a job. Anne: Yeah. Mehak: And this is not how it works at all. So as long as you're motivated and you, you know that you're coming in and you have to put in a lot of time and effort, we can help you get over to that next phase. But right now on average, our classes, I think the age is anywhere between about 28 to about 35. Anne: Okay, okay. Mehak: And yeah, it's people that are in all different types of fields. We have people that are working at Starbucks, CVS to people that are making a career shift from programming because they aren't enjoying sitting behind the computer. So yeah, it really just depends on where you are, but you're just ready to work at an agency and get a job. Anne: So your program is also very unique and very different because you pay nothing until you land a job. Talk to me about that. Mehak: Yeah. So we, we really believe that opportunity should be to anyone that wants to work hard and wants to put in the work and wants to put in the effort. Opportunity shouldn't just be based on where you're from, what your educational background is or who you know, And to make opportunities available to people that are willing to work hard, we decided to make the program completely free upfront. So what that means is, is after you have graduated from our program and you're making over $30,000 a year, that's when you start to pay us back 10% of your salary -- Anne: Got it. Mehak: -- and that's over two years. Anne: Okay. Okay. Wow. That's a really unique idea. I think that's fantastic, especially with the way education is costing these days. It's something that truly is, again, so many people are talking about how we really need like educational reform. And this is a really wonderful way to do that. So how has it worked out so far? Mehak: It's been great. You know, whenever people come into the program, we're very, very, hands-on from the moment they enter to the moment that they leave. So, uh, once people actually land that job, it's been really exciting to see people through that process. And, you know, we've, we've been able to build a really strong community with everyone that's gone through the program, has graduated, been placed. And because of that, it's a lifelong thing. It's not just you go through the program and then you get a job and then you never hear from us again. Um, we're still throwing events. We're still in touch with a lot of the students. The students are coming back to talk to new students. So it's, it's been really good. It's been really cool to see people grow and come into their own over the span of a year since we've started. Anne: And this is 100% remote, correct? Mehak: Yeah. Completely remote. All of our classes take place on Zoom, and they're in the evenings. So that way you can do your full-time day job and then come and take us whenever you get. Anne: Nice. And so you were mentioning that some of your students come back. They come back to talk to the current students, but do you also have programs like refresher programs in terms of -- 'cause as we say, everything changes so frequently. Are you thinking of offering refresher programs or maybe paid programs that if people two years ago, you know -- Mehak: Yeah, for sure. Anne: -- they might need something new? Yeah. Mehak: Absolutely. You know, I think the biggest thing that we really push on in the program from day one is that we're trying to teach them how to learn. So we'll give you those, those building blocks and those stepping stones and help you get started. But a lot of our program is centered around, how do you read documentation? How do you get started on something on your own? How do you do research? Because the last thing that we want is our students are falling behind, because they were just shown how to do something, and then they just know how to do that thing. So we really put a really big emphasis on the program for them to learn. Uh, but over the span of the next few months, we're launching a lot of really exciting new things in SkillBank. So we have, we'll have a portal that's launching that they can actually come in and review classes that they had in the past. Anne: Oh nice. Mehak: They'll be able to see previous curriculum -- curriculum as it's being updated. And then we also offer to the students that if they want to come in and sit in on a class again, they're more than welcome to come and do that. Anne: Oh, that's fantastic. So in terms of the classes that you're offering, they're just becoming more and more. What is your staff like? How many teachers do you have? Mehak: Yeah, so we, we currently have right now about two instructors per cohort, one that acts as more of a TA and is around to help. And then, um, your main instructor and then, yeah, you know, our, our team is really small, but we, we hit all the things. So whenever a student comes into a program, they get assigned to a career advisor and, um, this career advisors with them throughout their time in the program to help them with preparing for mock interviews, getting the resume together, um, getting interviews together, salary negotiations, we cover all of that. And then you have your career advisor that's with you through that program. We also have our admissions counselor who's there with you to make sure that you understand the contract that you're signing and there to just help you throughout your time and to make sure that you're getting the support that you need along with your instructors. Anne: Yeah. I was going to ask you about the admissions. Is there a vetting process to, to enroll? Mehak: Yes, absolutely. Because the biggest thing, like I said earlier, is we want to make sure that you're ready to work, and you're ready to land a job within the next three to six months. If you're not in that place in your life, then SkillBank is not the place for you because the whole program is centered around helping you land a full-time job within the next six months. Anne: Now, are you teaching job search or the placement? Are you always placing people or are you teaching about job searching and resume? Mehak: -- teach about job search. Yeah, so we covered job search, we cover resume building, but a lot of our placement strategy right now, we have agencies that we're partnered with that we'll send out resumes to. And that's been a really great funnel for us, but also students will come to us and say, hey, I found this company that I'm really excited to work at, and then we'll help you prepare. And if it's someone that's within our network or our investors know, we will make intros as well. So we're really hands-on with the students to make sure that we're placing them into the type of company that they want to work at. But it's also just really important that if you do come into our program with that expectation of us placing you, that you also understand that you have to put in that work as well. Anne: Sure. Mehak: You still have to get your resume together. You still have to prepare for mock interviews. Like I said earlier, students sometimes come into the program expecting that like, okay, I graduated, and now SkillBank will help me land a job. And it doesn't work like that. The companies that we're partnered with still want to see that you're coming in prepared and that you know what you're talking about. Anne: Sure, sure. What do you see for the future of SkillBank? What are you looking to do? Mehak: Yeah, absolutely. So the whole premise of SkillBank is we want to help you learn market ready skills as quickly as possible so that we can go and land a job. So right now we're just focusing on marketing. It's paid media. We plan on going into organic at some point in the next couple of years, lifecycle marketing. And then eventually we want to completely own the non-technical space, moving into sales, operations. I think, you know, there's a lot of coding boot camps out there that are covering the technical aspects, the data boot camps. We want to cover everything that's non-technical. And then the really beautiful thing about that is it's not about putting the reps by on your own. It's just about learning, how do these platforms work, and then just learning just enough so that way we can actually help you get your foot in the door within that field. So our structure is a lot different and a lot quicker than these bootcamps that'll take 9 to 12 months to help you land a job that are a lot more technical. Anne: So talk to me a little bit about, because I'm so interested, the, the mayor. Mehak: Yes. Anne: Was that, was that before SkillBank or after Jamocha and before SkillBank -- Mehak: Way before SkillBank. Anne: So talk to me about, yeah, your interest in running for mayor. I think that's really inspiring. Mehak: Yeah. You know, I been living in SF for a couple of years when I decided to run, and I was just, I was really inspired by just the city. You know, there was, I was learning so much while I was there. It's just, it's such a beautiful city. And I just, I looked around at my friends and the people that were there and I was working with, and I, you know, it just, I realized that there wasn't -- there wasn't much ownership from my age group around how the city was progressing and the way things were going. And I realized that maybe I could take that into my own hands and maybe try to bring some more awareness and excitement to the SF political system. I highly recommend not running at such a young age. Anne: What did you learn? Mehak: It was a -- I learned SF politics is very interesting place to be in, but you know, at the same time, I'm glad I did it. I learned a lot about the system. I learned a lot about just how SF politics works, how California politics works. Uh, but yeah, definitely never doing that again. Anne: But it might've opened up your networking circle or maybe not the way you intended it to. Mehak: Yeah. You know, it was quite an experience. I don't know. I'm not really interacting with those people right now -- Anne: Right. Mehak: -- just based on what we're doing with SkillBank -- Anne: Sure. Mehak: -- but yeah. You know, I think overall I learned a lot just about what with SF politics right now they're really focusing on. Anne: Yeah, yeah. Well, what I love about it is that it's, it's just bold. It was such a bold move. And I think that that's such a trait of a, an amazing entrepreneur. So for my BOSSes out there that listen to this podcast who are entrepreneurs and all ages, really. As a matter of fact, I know quite a few of them are probably not millennial age. They're a little bit older, maybe thinking about this as a new career for them -- what would be your best advice for entrepreneurship? How can they build and grow a business today? It's such a crazy world out there. What would be your best tips? Mehak: Yeah, my, my first piece of advice to someone who comes up to me, and they're like, hey, should I start a business? Should I get into entrepreneurship? My first thing is to say, don't do it. And then if, and then if you hear that, and you're like, no, I still want to do it, then it's like, okay, here's, here's the things that you really need to think about. You have to build something that you're really passionate about. You can't start a business in a space -- because startups are hard, you know? Anne: Yeah. Mehak: There's days that work, there's days that things are working and like you're on cloud nine. And then the next day things are crashing and burning. Anne: Yeah. Mehak: And if you don't have conviction around what you're building and what you're excited about doing, you're setting yourself up for failure. So I think that's, that's the main thing that you really want to keep close to you. Is it, is this the thing that you want to be building? Is this the thing that you see yourself spending your time on? And if you're passionate about creating something and building something, I think entrepreneurship is the right place for you to be in. I think if you're in it for the money, if you're in it for fame or just not the actual process of building something and seeing something come to life, I think you're going to have a lot of trouble within that process. So I think just making sure that your incentives are aligned correctly and you know why you're doing what you're doing, I think that's, that's the biggest thing. Anne: So then we're convinced and we're passionate and we start our business. What would you say are the best ways to market that business in today's highly technical, online world and digitally chaotic, I should say, digitally chaotic? Mehak: For sure. Anne: So it's hard to get noticed. Mehak: There's two ways you can drive traffic. It's organically, or you can drive traffic through paid media. I think if you're going to take the paid media route, make sure that you have a budget so you can test things out. Anne: Sure. Mehak: But if you're going to take the organic route, I've been recommending to all my friends to start using TikTok. I think TikTok has an incredible algorithm for how they actually help you find an audience. If you're creating content that's engaging, is fun, it's following the trends, you'll be able to build an audience relatively quickly. I actually just picked up TikTok maybe about a month ago and probably pulled in about 4 million views, 10,000 new followers. And, you know, it's just by consistently putting things out and watching what other creators are doing within your space, you can sell, you can sell products, you can build a brand. Um, and I think TikTok is the best place to do that. And they'll also funnel an audience to your Instagram and to your YouTube. So yeah, I highly recommend taking the TikTok route. Anne: So then are you, are you talking about SkillBank on TikTok or are you just -- Mehak: For sure. Anne: -- okay. Is that the kind of content that you're putting out on TikTok? Mehak: Yeah, so, I mean, it's, it's a mix, right? My personal TikTok has a lot to do with just me. So it's like, you know, like we'll push a lot of content around. Like one of my employees is like running -- that's running the SkillBank TikTok, she'll push something up that's like making fun of me or making fun of my TikTok. And then like, we'll do a little back and forth. Uh, you know, we just, we found the voice, right? So it's like, my TikTok is more mainly about me and like telling my stories, but I talk a lot about SkillBank -- Anne: Okay. Mehak: -- or like being a CEO or like running my company. And it's through that process of getting to know me, you also get to know SkillBank, but then on the SkillBank page, we're like really focusing on how do we get people to understand what our value props are, what we're trying to teach, who our students are, where you can land a job. Yeah. I think it's, it's, it's a lot of trial and error. I've seen other companies that are just like straight to the punch -- Anne: Sure. Mehak: -- of just, hey, this is our product. This is what we do. And like, come buy it. And then they're, they found creative ways to do that and they're blowing up, but then you have other companies like Duolingo on TikTok that are being really funny. And they've like literally found a mascot that like walks around and like is like doing really silly stuff. So I think it just depends on what you're trying to do and who your, what kind of audience you're going after, but everyone is on TikTok from my mom to my little sister. Anne: And what's so interesting I know for a lot of people in our industry, voice talent, voice talent, you know, long time ago when people would ask, well, why did you want to get into voiceover, a lot of people would say, well, because I don't want to be on camera. I wanted to be an actor, but I didn't want to be on camera. So interestingly enough, and of course, video, I think is the medium that people are able to digest it easier than other types of media. So I think that it's absolutely effective for marketing, but I know a lot of our BOSSes out there are very resistant to actually going on to video. But I do know some of them that have really made a mark with their TikTok accounts. Any other platforms that you like? Mehak: Yeah. I think TikTok's the best. I think YouTube, if you're trying to maybe post more tutorials or how to's, if it's the tutorial that people are searching for, you can build a brand that way. YouTube's a search engine at the end of the day. Anne: Yeah. Mehak: So if you're creating content that people are searching for, you can build a brand there. And then I think Instagram is a really good place to be your homepage on the web right now. Anne: Okay. Mehak: You can have your link, your content, but if you're trying to build a brand, TikTok is by far the best place to be right now. Anne: Okay. Any final advice for BOSS entrepreneurs out there? Mehak: Absolutely. You know, just work hard and find what makes you happy, find what makes you excited to get up in the morning. And if you can figure that out, all of the money and the success and the fame and everything else will come along with that. Anne: I love it. I love it. Mehak, it has been such a pleasure talking to you today. Thank you so much. Mehak: Thank you so much for having me. This was great. Anne: I'm going to give a great big shout out to our sponsor, ipDTL. You too can connect and network like a BOSS and find out more at ipdtl.com. You guys, be BOSSes, go out and do something that you love and have an amazing week, and we'll see you next week. Bye. Mehak: Bye. >> Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voboss.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.