Getting Unstuck – Cultivating Curiosity

Guest Christopher Schaberg, PhD., is the Director of Public Scholarship at Washington University in St. Louis, as well as a founding editor of Object Lessons, a book series on the secret lives of ordinary things. Chris is the author of ten books, including one really good one on fly-fishing. Summary In this wide-ranging conversation, Chris reflects on curiosity, confusion, and the value of paying attention to small things. He begins by adapting Norman Maclean's line from A River Runs Through It—"Eventually, all things merge into one, and a river runs through it." by suggesting that "confusion" or "mystery" runs through his own life and work—a reminder that lingering in uncertainty can be a fertile state for creativity and learning. Chris also discusses his fascination with airports, where he once worked, and how those complex spaces became both a professional subject and metaphor for human experience. He also explores his "Object Lessons" book series, which celebrates the hidden lives of ordinary things, and his broader intellectual project of focusing on the small, the local, and the limited—an intentional counterbalance to a culture obsessed with scale, speed, and expansion. This theme carries through his writing on fly fishing, Adventure: An Argument for Limits, and Little Data, all of which urge closer attention to what's near, tangible, and often overlooked. As director of public scholarship, Chris works to help academics communicate their research clearly and meaningfully to general audiences, fostering what he sees as a moral imperative for universities: to re-engage with the public in accessible, authentic ways. He and I also reflect on teaching, the challenges of student preparation, and the evolving role of curiosity in an AI-driven age. Chris closes by describing fly fishing not as an escape but as a way to recenter attention and rediscover connection—with nature, with others, and with himself. The Essential Point Chris's essential insight is that confusion and uncertainty are not obstacles but opportunities—spaces where curiosity deepens, learning expands, and meaningful connections between art, scholarship, and everyday life emerge. "The best essays leave you more puzzled about a topic in a constructive way. It's okay to be confused—linger there." Social Media https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopher-schaberg-812923282/

Guest Lyle Kirtman has been a leadership development consultant for more than 30 years. As CEO, of Future Management Systems Inc., he has worked on developing leaders to increase results for students in 500 school districts in 15 states. Kirtman's focus on innovation in education is a key element of his presentations, keynotes, and publications. His field-based research has already made major contributions to the educational leadership arena through his "7 Competencies for High Performing Leaders," the use of leadership assessments for self-reflection and hiring, and the importance of getting a "C" in compliance to increase focus on results for student achievement. He is the author and co-author of numerous books, including Leadership and Teams: The Missing Piece of the Educational Reform Puzzle and Shaping the Future: Four Leadership Pivots for Lasting Educational Impact, which we discuss in this episode. Lyle earned a bachelor's degree in psychology from the State University of New York (SUNY) and a master's degree in counseling with a concentration in career development from SUNY and Fairfield University, Connecticut. Why This Episode Matters Lyle Kirtman's new book, Shaping the Future for Leadership Pivots for Lasting Educational Impact, aims to help educational leaders cultivate a positive results culture through four essential pivots. Identify a clear North Star that defines student success. Develop a new approach for hiring, developing, and retaining all staff (shifting from instructional leader to talent leader). Implement a system where employees self-assess their progress toward enabling student success. Establish and commit to high expectations for all students and staff. Kirtman argues that educational leaders lack a 21st-century "North Star" for student success, which is often narrowly defined by high-stakes test scores. He redefines "results" as the essential skills and competencies students need to be successful in life, beyond just academics. These include skills like critical thinking, resilience, and adaptability. Social Media www.futuremsi.com Twitter (X): @FutureManageme3

Guest When I sat down with Brew Moscarello, founder of Trico Unlimited, a Vermont-based fly fishing guiding and instruction service, it was clear that his story is about more than guiding—it's about a lifelong relationship with the outdoors. Drawn to Vermont by both snowboarding and fly fishing, Brew found himself immersed in the mountains and rivers that continue to inspire him today. His journey eventually led him into the Orvis organization, where he has turned his passion for the water into a vocation—while still maintaining a deep connection to the slopes. Summary Brew's approach goes beyond technical instruction—he emphasizes presence, patience, and the Zen-like qualities of being on the river. For Brew, guiding is as much about teaching and creating memorable experiences as it is about catching fish. He differentiates himself by leveraging his decades of experience on the Battenkill River, his deep ties to landowners and the community, and a strong instructional style tailored to each client's needs. Conservation and education are central to his mission, from working with the Battenkill Watershed Alliance to coaching a new high school fly-fishing club. Ultimately, Brew sees fly fishing as a way to connect people with nature, themselves, and each other, creating moments of joy, focus, and gratitude that extend far beyond the catch. The Key Takeaway Brew's fly fishing and guiding practice is less about catching fish and more about cultivating presence, patience, and connection with nature and others. Developing respect for the sport, the environment, and education is at the heart of what he does. Social Media Trico Unlimited, 4022 VT-313, Arlington, VT 05250 Brew Moscarello brew@tricounlimited.com (802) 379-2005

Guest Sam Sochet is a retired high school principal who currently works as an educational mentor, coach, consultant, and community speaker. He has been a member of the Syosset, NY, Library Board of Trustees since 2020 and currently serves as its Vice President. Sam taught and led schools for over 3 decades, which culminated in his work at Martin Van Buren High School, transforming it from a school on the brink of NY State Receivership and closure, to a thriving destination school for families in Eastern Queens. Sam's ability to utilize data analysis and community and civic involvement nearly doubled the graduation rate. As a result, Sam was named New York City High School Principal of the Year in 2019. Sam is currently running for the position of Oyster Bay, NY, Town Supervisor. Summary Sam Sochet shares lessons from transforming a struggling school, highlighting the significance of community, empowering teachers, and preparing students for flexible futures—while reflecting on the changing purpose of education and his new role in public service. The takeaway We must reimagine K–12 education, starting at the local community level, so that schooling goes beyond the traditional acquisition of content and test scores, focusing instead on preparing adaptable, collaborative, critical thinkers who can thrive in an uncertain future. Social Media LinkedIn

Guest Rebecca Winthrop is a leading global authority on education, the director of the Center for Universal Education at Brookings, and an adjunct professor at Georgetown University. She is dedicated to ensuring that every child has the opportunity to thrive in life, work, and as an engaged citizen. She leads cutting-edge research and initiatives aimed at transforming education systems around the world to better support children's learning and development. Rebecca is a trusted advisor to both school communities and national and international organizations. Her expertise is sought by many, including parent networks, schools, district education leaders, the White House, the United Nations, and Fortune 500 companies. Rebecca's work is centered on developing and advocating for evidence-based strategies that bring people together—families, educators, policymakers, and companies—to help children maximize their potential. She is the co-author with Jenny Anderson of The Disengaged Teen: Helping Kids Learn Better, Feel Better, and Live Better. She holds a PhD from Columbia University's Teachers College, an MA from its School of International and Public Affairs, and a BA from Swarthmore College. Summary Jeff and Rebecca explore how schools' outdated designs hinder student agency and engagement. They unpack the four "disengagement modes," highlight practices that foster curiosity and autonomy, and stress the role of families, teachers, and systemic reform in helping students become lifelong, self-directed learners. Key Takeaways Outdated Structures vs. Agency: Schools were built for compliance, not curiosity—modern learning must cultivate student agency and exploration. Four Modes of Engagement: Students move among Passenger, Achiever, Resistor, and Explorer engagement modes. Pathways Forward: Family collaboration, autonomy-supportive teaching, and project-based learning help students thrive and connect knowledge to real life. Social Media Instagram: @drrebeccawinthrop TikTok: @drrebeccawinthrop LinkedIn: Rebecca Winthrop

Guest None today; just me reflecting. Summary In this episode, I reflect on lessons I've drawn from Robert Redford's film adaptation of A River Runs Through It and how they support my growth as a writer. At first, I loved the film for its beauty, but as a writer, I later returned to it as an instructional tool: how to go beyond the surface story of familial love to convey Maclean's more profound meaning. The scene where Norman Maclean's father insists he cut his drafts in half taught me that "thrift" is about essence, not just length. Like Norman, I struggle in my early drafts to move past surface storytelling and uncover what I am truly trying to say. With encouragement from my writing coach, Cindy House, and insights from writing instructor Jeannine Ouillette, I've learned to revise until I reach "aboutness"—the story's heart that sits between the story's plot and its themes. For me, digging deeper means discovering not just what happens, but what emotions I'm feeling that I want my readers to feel. The Bob Ross painting I refer to in the essay. Related Media In Episode 240 of the podcast, "Teaching—The River That Runs Through A Life," I speak with John Dietsch, who choreographed all the fly fishing scenes in the film. Watch the scene where young Norman learns to write. Watch the emotional last scene in the film. Read this beautifully constructed review of Norman's teaching and writing. For a related and highly informative podcast, listen to April Vokey's interview with Rebecca McCarthy, who wrote an intimate portrait of Norman.

Guest Sarah Elkins is a keynote speaker, Gallup StrengthsFinder coach, and the author and podcast host of Your Stories Don't Define You, How You Tell Them Will. She is the principal at Elkins' Consulting. She is the organizing genius behind the annual No Longer Virtual Summit, a small business summit for those looking for a community of professionals to grow with - personally, professionally, and thoughtfully. In her work with coaching clients, Sarah guides individuals to enhance their communication by using storytelling as the foundation of their collaboration. What she's realized over years of coaching and podcasting is that the majority of people don't realize the impact of the stories they share - on their internal messages, and on the people they're sharing them with. Her work with leaders and people who aspire to be leaders follows a similar path to the interviews on her podcast, uncovering pivotal moments in their lives and learning how to share them to connect more authentically with others, to make their presentations and speaking more engaging, to reveal patterns that have kept them stuck or moved them forward, and to improve their relationships at work and at home. Summary In this episode, Sarah and I discuss our key takeaways from her recent "No Longer Virtual Summit." We reflect on sessions that focused on finding a target audience and identifying one's "content personality type." We also explore how they've applied these concepts to their work. I share how I've narrowed the focus of my podcast to center on curiosity and innovation, while Sarah talks about incorporating storytelling and the StrengthsFinder assessment into her public speaking coaching. We both emphasize the importance of vulnerability, personal stories, and targeting a specific audience to build authentic connections and achieve career clarity. Key Takeaways Narrow your focus to find your target audience. Instead of trying to appeal to a broad market, solopreneurs should "shoot with a rifle, not with a shotgun" by focusing on a specific audience based on their values and the problems they solve for clients. Embrace your "content personality type" for business development. Identifying how you work best, such as in-person or through reflection, can guide how you build your business and get people to care about your services. Use storytelling to build authentic connections. Sharing personal stories that demonstrate your skills and values can create a deeper, more memorable connection with others. This is particularly effective for leaders and professionals in networking situations. Social Media: Your Stories Don't Define You, How You Tell Them Will Book: To support your local bookstore, visit Bookshop.org. Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/your-stories-dont-define-you-how-you-tell-them-will/id1329558957

Guest Dr. Constantino "Costa" Aguilar is a distinguished educational leader with over 29 years of transformative service in public education. Throughout his dynamic career, Dr. Aguilar has demonstrated extraordinary commitment to student success and organizational excellence, serving in a wide range of leadership roles, including Spanish Teacher, Head Baseball Coach, Associate Principal, Principal, Executive Director of Technology and Innovation, and Assistant Superintendent of Educational Services in the Merced Union High School District. He currently serves as the Superintendent of Riverbank Unified School District, where he continues to lead with strategic vision, innovation, and a relentless focus on equity and achievement for all students. Dr. Aguilar's exceptional leadership has been recognized at the state level. He is a proud recipient of the prestigious "Honoring Our Own" award from the California Association of Latino Superintendents and Administrators (CALSA) and has been named Mentoring Minds California Administrator of the Year. His accolades also include ACSA Region 9 Principal of the Year, Career Technical Education (CTE) Administrator of the Year, and District Principal and Co-Administrator of the Year—testaments to his ability to inspire teams, elevate learning environments, and drive sustainable change. Summary Dr. Constantino "Costa" Aguilar is a superintendent in his third year at Riverbank Unified School District. Costa shares his journey from being a Spanish teacher to becoming a superintendent and discusses his vision for educational reform. He highlights the importance of social-emotional learning and dual enrollment programs—high school and college—and emphasizes the need to teach students how to be productive members of society. Costa outlines the challenges facing education today, including social disengagement, mental health issues, and the integration of artificial intelligence. He also stresses the need for community engagement, parent involvement, and a shift away from antiquated, adult-centric school systems. Key Takeaways Educational Purpose and Reform: According to Costa, the current national K12 school system is "incredibly antiquated" and no longer serves students' needs. He believes the purpose of schooling should be to provide every student with the opportunity to pursue their dreams, regardless of what they are. Costa advocates for changes like different scheduling and focusing on mastery learning over traditional grading. The Role of Community and Social-Emotional Learning: Costa emphasizes the importance of unifying the community and building trust between parents and the school system. He believes social-emotional learning (SEL) is a foundational and essential component of education, helping students develop emotional intelligence and learn how to be productive social members of society. Challenges of Modern Education: The biggest challenges Costa faces include how to use artificial intelligence, improving literacy skills, and student mental health. Social Media Riverbank Unified School District

In this episode, I reflect on some of the "No" responses I receive from potential guests. I have hosted this show for seven years and 376 episodes, yet some of my most popular episodes are about guests who declined to be on the show. I discuss three types of "Nos": a direct "No," an initial "Yes" followed by silence, and no response at all. I note that the rejections that linger with me are from guests I desperately wanted to host. I explain that I sometimes share these stories with my listeners to create something out of nothing and to explain what sparked my curiosity in the first place. I conclude that while a "No" still stings, I have learned not to take it personally; it is a fact of podcast life.

Guest Nanci Morris Lyon is a long-time resident of Bristol Bay, Alaska, living in King Salmon, where she owns Bear Trail Lodge on the famed Naknek River. She is a long-time leader in Bristol Bay conservation and has been an essential voice in the fight against the Pebble Mine. As the first female guide in Bristol Bay and one of the first in Alaska, she is an inspiration for many young women pursuing careers in the sport-fishing world. She was instrumental in the creation of the Bristol Bay Guide Academy, and 14 years later, she continues to be the lead instructor at the Academy, currently guiding some of her past students into roles as academy instructors. She is also a role model for guides throughout the country, demonstrating and emphasizing the importance of getting involved in fisheries management and conservation as a sport-fishing professional. She has donated her time to several important Bristol Bay fisheries documents, including the Southwest Alaska Rainbow Trout management plan and the Nushagak King Salmon Management plan. Among the Bristol Bay guide circle, she is known as the "Queen of the Naknek." Summary Nanci discusses her unique path to becoming a fishing guide and lodge operator. She shares her personal history, including graduating from high school at 16, working in veterinary medicine, and then building homes in Anchorage before a personal loss led her to a new career in guiding. Nanci highlights the importance of cultivating a strong customer service culture at the lodge, where employees are treated like family and encouraged to go beyond their basic duties. She also talks about her involvement in environmental issues, particularly her opposition to the proposed Pebble Mine, and her role in establishing a fly fishing guide academy for local youth. Key Takeaways Exceptional Customer Service is a Taught Culture: Nanci emphasizes that outstanding customer service is not accidental but a deliberate part of the company culture. She leads by example, showing employees that no task is too small, and she hires people who are genuinely interested in connecting with guests rather than just performing a job. She looks for individuals who want to "meet people where they're at" and make a positive impact on their day. Environmental Advocacy is Crucial in Remote Areas: The interview highlights the fragility of Alaska's natural resources and the importance of protecting them. Nanci's involvement in fighting against projects like the Pebble Mine, which threatened the entire Bristol Bay ecosystem, demonstrates how individuals and businesses in remote locations can become key advocates for environmental preservation and the subsistence lifestyles that depend on them. Challenges Foster Resilience: Nanci's life story, from losing her brother to adapting to the demands of a remote Alaskan lifestyle, illustrates how adversity can build resilience. She believes that stepping out of one's comfort zone, especially in an environment where self-reliance is essential, makes people better. This mentality is a core part of her character, as she views challenges as opportunities rather than insults Social Media Bear Trail Lodge