The Biblical Mind

What do Tolkien, vocation, and gritty literature have in common? In this conversation, Dru Johnson talks with literary scholar Dr. Karen Swallow Prior about why Christians often gravitate toward fantasy and romantic ideals—and why that can be a problem. Karen critiques the elevation of genre fiction like The Lord of the Rings as literary canon and urges Christians to engage “thick texts” that challenge us and train us to read Scripture more deeply. They discuss how modern reading habits—dominated by email, social media, and skimmable articles—undermine our ability to understand both literature and biblical texts. Karen argues that literature forms our posture toward the world, and that our spiritual and moral imagination needs the grounding realism found in great novels and gritty stories. The conversation pivots to Karen’s new book on vocation, exploring how distorted expectations around passion, work, and calling are leaving young people disillusioned. Instead, she calls for a deeper, more historically grounded view of labor, meaning, and responsibility. This episode is a must-listen for those interested in education, theology, literature, and the subtle ways imagination shapes our lives of faith. For more of Karen's literature: https://karenswallowprior.com/ We are listener supported. Give to the cause here: https://hebraicthought.org/give For more articles: https://thebiblicalmind.org/ Social Links: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HebraicThought Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hebraicthought Threads: https://www.threads.net/hebraicthought X: https://www.twitter.com/HebraicThought Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/hebraicthought.org Chapters: 00:00 Exploring Literature and Vocation 02:37 The Role of Literary Criticism in Cultural Contexts 05:44 Tolkien, Lewis, and the Literary Canon 08:46 Understanding Thick Texts: Literature and the Bible 12:04 The Importance of Reading Skills in Biblical Studies 14:55 Interpreting the Bible: Layers of Meaning in Texts 19:49 The Importance of Humility in Understanding Literature 24:00 Navigating Vocation and Career Expectations 29:54 The Reality of Menial Jobs and Their Value 33:37 Balancing Idealism and Grit in Literature 38:47 Finding Vocation in the True, Good, and Beautiful

In this second conversation with political philosopher Yoram Hazony, we dive deeper into the biblical concept of nationhood, wrestling with listener-submitted questions on nationalism, empire, and political virtue. Hazony responds to critiques and clarifies his position: biblical nationalism is not about racial purity or imperialism, but about the virtue of limited, self-governing peoples—unified not by ethnicity but by shared laws, traditions, and faith. Hazony distinguishes biblical terms like am and goy, explores the status of converts like Ruth, and dismantles the modern racialized understanding of nationhood. He emphasizes that scripture assumes nations will be internally diverse, but not infinitely so—there must be a dominant center that holds people together. The conversation also explores why biblical literature, not Greco-Roman thought, shaped the American constitutional order, and why the prophets critique empire while affirming the need for some form of the state. As Hazony puts it, “Purity is not the goal. Faithful unity is.” For the Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy article Yoram mentioned in the interview, access the PDF here: https://journals.law.harvard.edu/jlpp/wp-content/uploads/sites/90/2025/06/Hammer-FINAL_TC-JH-YRH-edits.pdf For more of Yoram's literature: https://www.yoramhazony.org/ https://x.com/yhazony We are listener supported. Give to the cause here: https://hebraicthought.org/give For more articles: https://thebiblicalmind.org/ Social Links: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HebraicThought Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hebraicthought Threads: https://www.threads.net/hebraicthought X: https://www.twitter.com/HebraicThought Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/hebraicthought.org Chapters: 00:00 The Virtue of Nationalism 05:19 Understanding Nation in Biblical Context 10:42 The Role of Genetics and Kinship in Nations 15:25 Diversity and Unity in National Identity 20:09 Power Dynamics in Heterogeneous Nations 25:23 Biblical Foundations of Western Political Thought 38:14 The Christian Heritage of the West 41:15 Separation of Powers and the Mosaic Constitution 44:37 Separation of Church and State 48:29 The Concept of Empire 59:00 The Role of Kings and the State 01:00:17 Eschatology and the Future of Nations

Darren Duke, a retired Marine Corps Special Operations commander with over 30 years of military experience, provides a candid look at the ethics of military service from a Christian perspective. He discusses the moral complexities faced by service members, emphasizing the importance of preparing for both combat and the challenging military culture. Duke reflects on his transformation from Cold War patriotism to post-9/11 disillusionment, and explores how symbols like the Punisher and Valhalla help cope with the trauma of warfare.

In this update episode, Dru Johnson and Mike Tolliver pull back the curtain on the work happening at the Center for Hebraic Thought. From filing 501(c)(3) nonprofit status and building a stellar advisory board, to launching a redesigned website and reviving in-person workshops, the CHT has been quietly preparing for long-term growth and broader influence. They discuss the newly relaunched Hebraic Thought Community (HTC) on Facebook—already hundreds strong—and the four activities that bring the community together: highlighting member-created resources, sharing weekend reading, gathering weekly for public listening of Scripture, and hosting scholar Q&As. This digital community is sparking cross-disciplinary conversations, surfacing unexpected gems from laypeople, and reimagining how Christians listen to the Bible together. Dru and Mike also explain why listening (not just reading) Scripture in community is a powerful and ancient discipline—and why it’s missing from most churches today. They reflect on the joy of watching Scripture come alive in unexpected ways through these communal practices. They close with a call to support: whether through recurring giving, hosting a workshop, or sharing the word, CHT is building something bigger than any one person—something rooted in Scripture and flourishing in community. We are listener supported. Give to the cause here: https://hebraicthought.org/give For more articles: https://thebiblicalmind.org/ Social Links: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HebraicThought Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hebraicthought Threads: https://www.threads.net/hebraicthought X: https://www.twitter.com/HebraicThought Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/hebraicthought.org Chapters: 00:00 Introduction 00:03 Updates on The Center for Hebraic Thought 03:03 Community Engagement and Workshops 06:03 Hebraic Thought Community Initiatives 09:04 Public Listening of Scripture 11:55 The Importance of Listening to Scripture 15:10 Website Updates and Future Plans 17:53 Funding and Support for the Center 20:58 Workshops and Community Involvement  

Dr. Christopher J. H. Wright, a renowned Old Testament scholar and Global Ambassador for the Langham Partnership, explores the nuances of reading the Old Testament with a Christ-focused lens. He discusses the dangers of oversimplifying scripture by trying to find Jesus in every verse, arguing for richer interpretations that respect historical context. Wright highlights the importance of global voices in theological education and the transformative power of preaching, especially in regions with low literacy, echoing a call for the Western church to learn from its global counterparts.

Dr. Matthew Taylor, a scholar of religion and politics, dives into the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) and its surprising sway over modern evangelicalism and U.S. politics. He reveals how influential televangelists like Paula White and Lance Wallnau helped deliver Trump’s presidency. The conversation explores the blend of prophecy, celebrity culture, and populist theology that shapes this movement. Taylor critiques the evangelical elites' dismissal of NAR leaders and discusses the implications of Christian supremacy in American political power.

Alissa Wilkinson, a film critic at The New York Times and author of 'We Tell Ourselves Stories', dives deep into the narrative prowess of Joan Didion. She uncovers how Didion viewed stories as survival mechanisms in chaotic times. The conversation touches on the interplay of Hollywood and politics, the resurgence of nostalgia, and the role of storytelling in addressing trauma. Wilkinson intriguingly questions if Scripture is merely another constructed narrative, highlighting the complexities of cultural memory amidst contemporary conspiracy theories.

In this enlightening discussion, John Dunne, author of *The Mountain Shall Drip Sweet Wine*, reveals the rich cultural and theological significance of wine in ancient Israel. He examines the artistry behind winemaking, emphasizing its connection to divine blessing and abundance. Dunne challenges modern perceptions, highlighting wine's role in biblical miracles, such as Jesus turning water into white wine. The conversation delves into fermentation methods and ancient techniques, offering a fresh perspective on how wine shaped both community rituals and spiritual life.

Yoram Hazony, an Israeli philosopher and author of The Virtue of Nationalism, dives into the complex relationship between nationalism and biblical teachings. He discusses the Old Testament's vision of nations, citing the Table of Nations in Genesis and critiques of empires like Babylon. Hazony argues for the value of independent nations with borders, traditions, and moral guidelines. His insights challenge modern Christian perspectives on nationalism and highlight the Old Testament's relevance in today's political landscape.

Join theologian Josh Cockayne and developmental psychologist Gideon Salter as they delve into the profound nature of communal worship. They discuss how we are neurologically wired for joint attention and why gathering together is not just a ritual but a crucial aspect of understanding God. From the behavior of infants to the significance of liturgical practices, they challenge the idea of individuality in faith, emphasizing that worship is an embodied, social necessity that enriches our connection with each other and the divine.