
The Biblical Mind
The Biblical Mind is dedicated to helping its audience understand how the biblical authors thought, promoting Bible fluency through curious, careful reading of Scripture. It is hosted by Dr. Dru Johnson and published by the Center for Hebraic Thought, a hub for research and resources on the intellectual world of the Bible.
Latest episodes

7 snips
Jun 26, 2025 • 49min
Wine, Worship, and Craftsmanship: A Biblical Theology of Alcohol (John Dunne) Ep #206
In this enlightening discussion, John Dunne, author of *The Mountain Shall Drip Sweet Wine*, reveals the rich cultural and theological significance of wine in ancient Israel. He examines the artistry behind winemaking, emphasizing its connection to divine blessing and abundance. Dunne challenges modern perceptions, highlighting wine's role in biblical miracles, such as Jesus turning water into white wine. The conversation delves into fermentation methods and ancient techniques, offering a fresh perspective on how wine shaped both community rituals and spiritual life.

Jun 19, 2025 • 55min
Is Nationalism Biblical? Yoram Hazony on Nations, Empires, and Justice (Yoram Hazony) Ep. #205
Yoram Hazony, an Israeli philosopher and author of The Virtue of Nationalism, dives into the complex relationship between nationalism and biblical teachings. He discusses the Old Testament's vision of nations, citing the Table of Nations in Genesis and critiques of empires like Babylon. Hazony argues for the value of independent nations with borders, traditions, and moral guidelines. His insights challenge modern Christian perspectives on nationalism and highlight the Old Testament's relevance in today's political landscape.

Jun 12, 2025 • 46min
Do You See What I See? Worship, Joint Attention, and Being Human (Cockayne & Salter) Ep. #204
Join theologian Josh Cockayne and developmental psychologist Gideon Salter as they delve into the profound nature of communal worship. They discuss how we are neurologically wired for joint attention and why gathering together is not just a ritual but a crucial aspect of understanding God. From the behavior of infants to the significance of liturgical practices, they challenge the idea of individuality in faith, emphasizing that worship is an embodied, social necessity that enriches our connection with each other and the divine.

Jun 5, 2025 • 57min
How Artists Think Biblically: Liturgies, Ritual, and the Weight of Words (Douglas McKelvey) Ep. #203
Douglas McKelvey, author of the bestselling Every Moment Holy liturgical series, shares his spiritual journey from neo-charismatic roots to solidifying a biblically coherent faith. He discusses the transformative power of community, particularly through the Rabbit Room, and highlights the responsibility of crafting impactful prayers. McKelvey also opens up about finding beauty and meaning in rituals, the art of liturgy, and how art can beautifully intertwine with faith, offering listeners a deeper understanding of creativity in spiritual practice.

May 29, 2025 • 57min
Is Abraham a Hero or a Warning? How Genre Makes or Breaks Your Bible Reading (Andy Judd) Ep. #202
What if our biggest biblical misunderstandings come from reading the right words in the wrong way? In this episode, Old Testament scholar Dr. Andy Judd joins Dru Johnson to unravel the complex and often misused concept of genre in biblical interpretation. Drawing from his background in English literature and law, Dr. Judd explains how many theological debates, misreadings, and even dangerous interpretations arise not from misused Hebrew dictionaries—but from unspoken assumptions about genre.
Why do readers assume Abraham’s behavior is exemplary? Why do sermons treat biblical laws like modern legal codes? Why do people interpret apocalyptic visions as historical predictions? From Genesis to Judges, Paul’s letters to Revelation, Judd shows that failing to ask, “What kind of text is this?” is often where interpretation goes off the rails.
Blending humor, literary theory, and deep biblical insight, Judd offers practical ways to become better “travelers” in the ancient biblical world—learning to coordinate with texts the way we coordinate with traffic rules in a new country.
Andy Judd's personal website can be found here:
https://www.andyjudd.com/
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Chapters:
00:00 Introduction
00:54 The Journey into Genre Studies
03:26 Misinterpretations and Conflicts in Biblical Genre
06:26 Understanding Narrative and Ethical Frameworks
10:18 The Role of Genre in Biblical Interpretation
12:39 Defining Genre: Conventions and Contexts
14:37 Cultural Contexts and Genre Navigation
18:35 The Boomerang Test: A Practical Approach to Genre
24:32 Deep Structures and Genre Regulation
28:08 Understanding Genre in Scripture
33:54 The Role of Genre in Biblical Interpretation
39:22 Biblical Law: A Unique Genre
43:56 The Social Function of Biblical Law
49:42 Wisdom and the Interpretation of Law

May 22, 2025 • 53min
Storge, Justice, and the Ten Commandments: Rethinking Biblical Love (Mike Tolliver) Ep. #201
Is loving your family first a biblical idea—or a betrayal of Jesus’ call to love your neighbor? In this thought-provoking episode, Mike Tolliver—Executive Director of the Center for Hebraic Thought—joins Dru Johnson to explore his developing PhD thesis on Storge (family love), the kinsman-redeemer, and what biblical justice actually looks like.
Drawing on Torah, philosophy, and early Christian texts, Mike argues that Storge love is not only natural—it’s essential to a functioning society, and that Israel’s family-based justice system was designed to eliminate categories like “orphan” and “widow.” He explores why Paul uses the metaphor of adoption—and not kinsman-redeemer—for Gentile inclusion, and why the Ten Commandments are saturated with family ethics.
From Sophie's Choice-style sermon illustrations to questions about circumcision, baptism, and ethnic election, this episode unpacks the implications of what it means to love your kin without devaluing the stranger.
As Mike prepares for PhD work, his big question is: What does rightly ordered family love look like in Scripture—and what happens when it gets misordered?
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Chapters:
00:00 Exploring Academic Pursuits and Career Paths
05:47 The Kinsman Redeemer: A Social Safety Net
14:35 Storge and Kinsman Redeemer in Biblical Context
19:54 Theological Implications of Kinship and Election
27:34 Exploring the Promise of Descendancy
29:03 Navigating the Path to a PhD
30:56 The Challenge of Proposal Writing
31:57 Understanding Storge in Hebraic Thought
39:07 The Role of Storge in the Ten Commandments
41:07 Stranger Love vs. Family Love
43:55 Moral Dilemmas in Love
49:56 The Future of Intergenerational Family Focus

May 15, 2025 • 54min
Managing Fame, Faith, and the Stage: Inside the (Christian) Music Industry (Nick Barre) Ep. #200
What does it mean to call something “Christian music”? Nick Barré has spent decades in the music industry—from working at EMI with early Switchfoot to managing major names like Casting Crowns, KB, Brandon Heath, and more. In this 200th episode of The Biblical Mind, he joins Dru Johnson to reflect on the Christian music label, the tension between calling and category, and how artists navigate faith and fame.
Nick argues that labeling music—or restaurants or plumbers—as “Christian” may do more harm than good. He shares why genre categories are a business necessity but spiritually unhelpful, and why the most important questions artists must answer are about calling, audience, and identity—not chart placement.
From spiritual burnout to public affirmation, from the temptations of platform to the dangers of envy, Nick shares pastoral, industry-hardened wisdom on how to guide artists into longevity and spiritual wholeness. He even offers advice for aspiring Christian musicians—and what it really means to “show, not tell” when pursuing a creative calling.
Nick Barre's Company "Proper Management" can be found here:
https://www.propermanagement.net
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Chapters:
00:00 Defining Christian Music
03:11 The Evolution of Music Genres
06:10 Navigating the Music Industry
08:57 The Dangers of Labeling
12:09 The Role of Artists in Ministry
15:16 The Impact of Fame on Identity
18:24 Identifying Unique Gifts in Artists
25:41 Exploring Diverse Artist Portfolios
28:29 Navigating Hard Conversations in the Music Industry
31:05 Defining Success in the Arts
33:15 The Challenge of Artistic Compromise
37:06 Understanding Market Dynamics in Music
40:22 Fragmentation of the Music Industry
46:39 Advice for Aspiring Christian Artists

May 8, 2025 • 1h
Why Intellectual Humility Is the Key to Understanding Scripture (Matt Whitman) Ep. #199
Matt Whitman, host of The Ten Minute Bible Hour and a digital evangelist, shares insights on the challenges people face in understanding Scripture. He discusses the fear of being wrong and the pressures of church hurt. Whitman advocates for intellectual humility, curiosity, and empathy in scriptural engagement. The conversation highlights the importance of interpretive grace and the revolutionary shift in understanding divine presence. Ultimately, it’s about embracing uncertainty and fostering a compassionate dialogue in faith.

May 1, 2025 • 53min
Evolution and Identity: A Jewish Perspective on Science and Belief (Rachel Pear) Ep. #198
What happens when science, religion, and education collide? In this episode, Dr. Rachel Pear shares her remarkable journey from growing up in New York’s modern Orthodox Jewish community to researching how evolution is taught and received across Israeli society.
A scholar of science education and prehistoric archaeology, Rachel discusses how Jewish, Christian, and Muslim communities in Israel grapple differently with the question of human origins. Why do some teachers avoid the topic altogether? Why do secular and religious students draw such hard lines around what’s “acceptable” to believe? And how do family, community, and national identity shape scientific acceptance?
Rachel also shares her experience presenting three distinct rabbinic views on evolution in schools, showing students that Jewish thought isn’t monolithic—and that questioning is part of the tradition. She explores the cultural weight of science, the legacy of eugenics, and how educators can create space for real dialogue in science classrooms.
Whether you’re an educator, a religious thinker, or just curious about how evolution meets identity, this episode offers a rich, honest look at a complex conversation that’s still evolving.
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Chapters:
00:00 Introduction to Rachel's Journey
02:49 Exploring Prehistoric Archaeology and Cultural Contexts
05:48 The Intersection of Evolution and Religion
08:48 Cultural Perspectives on Evolution in Israel
11:57 The Role of Education in Science and Religion
14:57 Diverse Views on Evolution in Arab Schools
17:58 The Complexity of Science and Cultural Identity
20:50 Reflections on Science, Culture, and Religion
27:27 Navigating Values in Education
32:20 The Complexity of Teaching Evolution
35:53 Epistemology and the Scientific Method
40:51 Cultural Perspectives on Evolution
45:32 The Intersection of Tradition and Modernity

Apr 24, 2025 • 54min
Is Evolution a Dirty Word? Muslim Perspectives on Science and Religion (Shoaib Malik) Ep. #197
Is the relationship between Islam and science as well-developed as it is in Christianity? Not even close—but that’s changing. In this episode, Dr. Shoaib Ahmed Malik, Lecturer in Science and Religion at the University of Edinburgh, joins Dru Johnson to share the emerging field of Islam and science, focusing on the hot topic of evolution.
Shoaib unpacks the historical development of Islamic engagement with science, tracing it from early encounters with Western scientific frameworks to the present. He explains why the Islamic world lacks infrastructure like textbooks, academic chairs, and journals for the science-religion conversation—and why that’s finally beginning to change.
But what about evolution? Shoaib shares why it remains a highly sensitive subject in Muslim-majority countries (including stories of professors losing jobs over it) and how Muslim views differ from Christian ones, especially around original sin, Adam, and human suffering.
This is an honest, fascinating look at how Muslims are navigating modern science, why cultural and religious taboos persist, and how Shoaib’s work is shaping new conversations at the intersection of Islamic theology and science.
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Chapters:
00:00 Introduction to Shoaib Ahmed Malik's Journey
03:11 Transition from Engineering to Humanities
06:00 Teaching Experience in the UAE
09:14 Pursuing Philosophy, Science, and Religion
12:18 Publishing and Academic Recognition
15:11 Navigating Career Changes and New Opportunities
18:29 Exploring Science and Religion Conversations
26:43 Navigating Conversations with Students
27:29 Understanding Islam: Sunni vs Shia
30:19 The Contemporary Muslim World: Sunni and Shia Dynamics
31:34 The Intellectual History of Islam
35:17 Muslim Perspectives on Science and Religion
39:01 Islamization of Science: A Discourse Emerges
42:48 The Development of Islamic Science Education
44:25 Evolution and Its Reception in the Muslim World
48:11 Unique Questions Muslims Ask About Evolution