The Engineering Leadership Podcast

Oded Kedem, CTO at BigPanda, discusses balancing technical depth with high-level business strategy. He shares strategies for prioritizing technology, bridging marketing & tech, and aligning customer expectations. Oded also talks about frameworks for decision-making, changing past tech decisions, and the impact of AI in engineering.

Chris Cravens, an industry veteran and former CIO at Uber and Zynga, shares actionable insights on applying professional strategies to personal growth. He discusses the common struggle of prioritizing work over personal life and offers techniques like OKRs and goal setting to achieve better balance. The conversation dives into overcoming negative self-talk, structuring health and wellness routines, and the impact of coaching in personal goal achievement. Cravens also touches on wellness trends as avenues for relaxation and self-improvement.

This is a special episode from our show “Engineering Founders” - Jon Perl & Scott Wilson share the origin story of QA Wolf & deconstruct their best practices (and what to avoid) for early-stage cold outreach, how to add value to your cold email communications, and why experimenting with your cold outreach is important to early sales! We also dive in to the story behind QA Wolf’s strategic move to incorporate services into their business strategy & tangible ways to add accountability measures that will help drive growth in the early days of your company. Check out Engineering Founders - https://hubs.la/Q02tq5ym0ABOUT JON PERLJon Perl is the co-founder and CEO of QA Wolf, a startup building the QA solution every engineering leader wishes for. Prior to QA Wolf, Perl led engineering teams in the healthcare and home services space, where he learned firsthand how difficult automated regression testing can be — and how critical it is for teams to have. His interest in software engineering comes from an overarching desire to eliminate boring, repetitive tasks and give people their time back. He has a dog named Finn and enjoys hiking."Your goal is simply to book a meeting. You're not trying to close a deal through one email. It's like, 'How can I just get on the phone with somebody?' That's the goal.”- Jon Perl   ABOUT SCOTT WILSONAs co-founder and head of growth at QA Wolf, Scott Wilson is trying to upend 20+ years of stagnation in the QA industry. Before this he launched the marketing efforts at Wyze and helped acquire 6 million paying customers. If he’s not working, you might find him backpacking with Frank the dog, or learning a new illusion."It's not referencing the weather in Seattle or that you got promoted. Personalization is being contextually relevant to the person. This is how your mind should be thinking. It's like, 'I saw you're a hundred person company with nine engineers on your team and no QA engineers. You're probably going through this and here's a solution for it.'”- Scott Wilson   We’re less than one week away from GLOW 2024Attend GLOW 2024 - Jellyfish’s virtual summit for engineering, product, and finance leaders who are looking to deliver greater business impact while building great software and teams. Here’s a preview of what’s in store:An inspiring guest keynote by TIME Magazine’s Kid of the Year, Gitanjali RaoStrategies for engineering excellence from CTOs at Keller Williams, Genius Sports, and FanDuelJellyfish CEO and Co-Founder Andrew Lau’s keynote on the future of software engineeringExciting product roadmap updates from JellyfishRegister for this May 15 event today at jellyfish.co/glow!SHOW NOTES:The origin story of QA Wolf & the desire to build an automated QA system (2:08)What got Scott excited about joining the QA Wolf founding team (7:14)Scott’s experience as the non-technical cofounder on the team (9:13)Learn enough to be dangerous & be willing to persist as a founder (10:38)The approach of paying people you can learn from & its impact on QA Wolf (14:11)Lessons learned about cold emailing & effective strategies to implement (17:12)Cold emailing strategies that don’t work (21:00)How to add value to email communication & incorporate experimentation (22:24)Why they shifted the focus from coding to sales / outreach / identifying solutions (26:23)Make accountability mechanisms a key component of early-stage teams (29:09)The false signal of free users & expanding product into services (30:45)Identifying a gap in the business & being open-minded to new ideas (33:20)What the initial testing for QA Wolf’s services approach looked like (35:22)Jon & Scott’s perspective on dealing w/ investors in the automated services space (38:31)Rapid fire questions (44:01)LINKS AND RESOURCES$100M Offers: How To Make Offers So Good People Feel Stupid Saying NoHow to Hire a Product-Led Sales Leader – at Every StageThis episode wouldn’t have been possible without the help of our incredible production team:Patrick Gallagher - Producer & Co-HostJerry Li - Co-HostNoah Olberding - Associate Producer, Audio & Video Editor https://www.linkedin.com/in/noah-olberding/Dan Overheim - Audio Engineer, Dan’s also an avid 3D printer - https://www.bnd3d.com/Ellie Coggins Angus - Copywriter, Check out her other work at https://elliecoggins.com/about/

Mike Hanley, Chief Security Officer and SVP of Engineering @ GitHub, joins us to discuss how GitHub has successfully combined its engineering & security orgs and shares recommendations for how other orgs can pivot to this model. We cover why it’s so important for eng orgs to collaborate with security early on in the product development cycle and tips for educating your engineers on security best practices. We also discuss how the rise of AI tools / usage is changing how companies need to think about & practice security, why AI is providing opportunities for increased safety & security within product development, and strategies for encouraging your org to adopt AI tooling within engineering, security, and beyond.ABOUT MIKE HANLEYMike Hanley is the Chief Security Officer and SVP of Engineering at GitHub. Prior to GitHub, Mike was the Vice President of Security at Duo Security, where he built and led the security research, development, and operations functions. After Duo’s acquisition by Cisco for $2.35 billion in 2018, Mike led the transformation of Cisco’s cloud security framework and later served as CISO for the company. Mike also spent several years at CERT/CC as a Senior Member of the Technical Staff and security researcher focused on applied R&D programs for the US Department of Defense and the Intelligence Community.When he’s not talking about security at GitHub, Mike can be found enjoying Ann Arbor, MI with his wife and eight kids."The idea that the security team is walled off or separate or not really connected, not just to engineering but the entirety of the business, you really can't have that. If you think about the pace of modern development, things are moving so quickly. It's so driven by software. The idea that you're like, ‘Hey, I got to walk down the hall and check in with somebody from security who has no idea what's going on in my roadmap, who has no idea what my day to day experience is living in engineering...’ That just doesn't work!”- Mike Hanley   We’re less than one week away from GLOW 2024Attend GLOW 2024 - Jellyfish’s virtual summit for engineering, product, and finance leaders who are looking to deliver greater business impact while building great software and teams. Here’s a preview of what’s in store:An inspiring guest keynote by TIME Magazine’s Kid of the Year, Gitanjali RaoStrategies for engineering excellence from CTOs at Keller Williams, Genius Sports, and FanDuelJellyfish CEO and Co-Founder Andrew Lau’s keynote on the future of software engineeringExciting product roadmap updates from JellyfishRegister for this May 15 event today at jellyfish.co/glow!SHOW NOTES:GitHub’s convergence of the eng & security orgs (2:33)Benefits of combining engineering & security org mandates (4:46)How the security team is involved with the internal product dev lifecycle (8:05)The downsides of engaging your security team as an afterthought (10:46)What an early-stage yes/and product conversation looks like (12:48)Examples of educating your eng team on security best practices (17:17)Expanding two-factor authentication externally (19:29)Stewarding security as a responsibility & value (21:59)Security & safety implications for orgs using / building AI tools (23:44)Why the rise of AI is a great time for eng / security collaboration (27:09)How to leverage security best practices using AI tools (29:53)Mike’s view that AI will create more opportunities & improve structural tech (32:14)Frameworks for getting to “yes” when it comes to adopting AI tooling (35:15)AI-powered tools GitHub is using to change workflows outside of eng & security (39:06)Considerations pivoting toward combining eng & security functions (40:35)Rapid fire questions (42:25)LINKS AND RESOURCESWhy Johnny Can’t Encrypt - Alma Whitten And J. D. Tygar’s argument that effective security requires a different usability standard that is not achievable through the user interface techniques commonly found in consumer software.The Space Trilogy - C.S. Lewis believed that popular science was the new mythology of his age, and in The Space Trilogy he ransacks the uncharted territory of space and makes that mythology the medium of his spiritual imagination.The Works of Peter DruckerThis episode wouldn’t have been possible without the help of our incredible production team:Patrick Gallagher - Producer & Co-HostJerry Li - Co-HostNoah Olberding - Associate Producer, Audio & Video Editor https://www.linkedin.com/in/noah-olberding/Dan Overheim - Audio Engineer, Dan’s also an avid 3D printer - https://www.bnd3d.com/Ellie Coggins Angus - Copywriter, Check out her other work at https://elliecoggins.com/about/

In this episode, we are talking about adaptability in engineering orgs, building out impactful management systems, and navigating complex transitions as eng leaders with Cosmin Nicolaescu, CTO @ Brex. He shares how his experience moving from Romania to the United States taught him vital lessons in adaptability that he has applied throughout his eng leadership career. We also discuss how to define what success as a manager looks like, Cosmin’s approach to putting out fires (and deciding which ones to prioritize), why you should restructure your meetings to focus on output vs. review, and how to implement a succession plan.ABOUT COSMIN NICOLAESCUCosmin (@getCos) leads engineering at Brex, building financial technology to accelerate entrepreneurs. Prior to Brex, he was at Stripe, leading financial infrastructure teams, building Stripe Terminal, and establishing engineering teams globally. His career started at Microsoft, launching Azure and Office365."How are you actually changing the trajectory of something. If the person wasn't there, would things have come out differently? If the person jumped in on something, did that meaningfully change the trajectory of that particular project? The answer should be yes and I think that is a good proxy for, as a manager, are you actually leading teams, people, projects, initiatives, and moving the company forward or are you just operating the machinery?”- Cosmin Nicolaescu   We’re less than one week away from GLOW 2024Attend GLOW 2024 - Jellyfish’s virtual summit for engineering, product, and finance leaders who are looking to deliver greater business impact while building great software and teams. Here’s a preview of what’s in store:An inspiring guest keynote by TIME Magazine’s Kid of the Year, Gitanjali RaoStrategies for engineering excellence from CTOs at Keller Williams, Genius Sports, and FanDuelJellyfish CEO and Co-Founder Andrew Lau’s keynote on the future of software engineeringExciting product roadmap updates from JellyfishRegister for this May 15 event today at jellyfish.co/glow!SHOW NOTES:How Cosmin's transition to the U.S. set the foundation for his approach to adaptability (2:40)Learn to accept what you can & cannot control as an eng leader (5:00)Frameworks for identifying / understanding what execs spend their time on (7:13)Navigating the transition from Microsoft to Stripe (9:12)Building out a successful & impactful management organization (12:08)In-demand qualities of managers during the shift to flatters orgs (15:00)Prioritizing which fires to focus on & willingness to delegate (16:39)Cosmin’s approach to triaging fires @ Brex (18:31)Restructure meetings for output rather than review (21:52)Approaches for adapting to the current macroeconomic environment (25:36)Roles that contributed to successful distributed hiring (29:09)Necessary elements that need to exist for an unconventional transition (31:28)Recommendations for developing & executing a succession plan (34:44)Rapid fire questions (37:30)LINKS AND RESOURCESOutlive: The Science and Art of Longevity - Wouldn’t you like to live longer? And better? In this operating manual for longevity, Dr. Peter Attia draws on the latest science to deliver innovative nutritional interventions, techniques for optimizing exercise and sleep, and tools for addressing emotional and mental health.Zero to One: Notes on Startups, or How to Build the Future - If you want to build a better future, you must believe in secrets. The great secret of our time is that there are still uncharted frontiers to explore and new inventions to create. In Zero to One, legendary entrepreneur and investor Peter Thiel shows how we can find singular ways to create those new things.Hit Refresh: The Quest to Rediscover Microsoft's Soul and Imagine a Better Future for Everyone - As told by Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella, Hit Refresh is the story of corporate change and reinvention as well as the story of Nadella’s personal journey, one that is taking place today inside a storied technology company, and one that is coming in all of our lives as intelligent machines become more ambient and more ubiquitous.Generations: The Real Differences Between Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, Boomers, and Silents―and What They Mean for America's Future - Professor of psychology Jean Twenge does a deep dive into a treasure trove of long-running, government-funded surveys and databases to answer these questions. Are we truly defined by major historical events, such as the Great Depression for the Silents and September 11 for Millennials? Or, as Twenge argues, is it the rapid evolution of technology that differentiates the generations?This episode wouldn’t have been possible without the help of our incredible production team:Patrick Gallagher - Producer & Co-HostJerry Li - Co-HostNoah Olberding - Associate Producer, Audio & Video Editor https://www.linkedin.com/in/noah-olberding/Dan Overheim - Audio Engineer, Dan’s also an avid 3D printer - https://www.bnd3d.com/Ellie Coggins Angus - Copywriter, Check out her other work at https://elliecoggins.com/about/

Have you ever wondered what to do in the “third act” of your career & beyond when it comes to opportunities outside traditional eng leadership / operational roles? In this episode, Nidhi Gupta, CEO & Co-Founder @ SheTO, joins us to share her perspectives on identifying new pathways, taking time for self-discovery, and deciding which career opportunity you’re most passionate about. She defines what the “third act” of your career is & explains roles, such as fractional roles, coaching, serving on boards, advising, etc. Plus Nidhi explains how her passion for supporting women in CTO roles led her to found SheTO, how to give yourself permission to explore new paths, and validate your next steps.ABOUT NIDHI GUPTANidhi (@NidhiGuptaSF) is the CEO and Co-Founder of SheTO, a private community for women and non-binary engineers and engineering leaders. Less than 9% of engineering executive roles are held by women. SheTO is working on changing that.Prior to founding SheTO, Nidhi was an accomplished engineering and product executive who has built, scaled, and transformed companies. She has extensive expertise in strategy, R&D, business development, and operations. She has led various Marketplaces and SaaS businesses. As an Engineering and Product leader, she is passionate about building and growing thriving operational organizations that deliver world-class products at scale.Prior to founding SheTO, Nidhi was the Chief Technology & Product Officer at Hired, Upwork and Ning."If you had all the free time on the planet and didn't have to worry about anything, what do you think you would do? Every single night I would go to bed and the next morning I woke up more excited solving for this 9% number than I was about my job and that told me that that's really something that I'm more passionate about so literally after I came back from vacation, I went and talked to my CEO and I quit my job.”- Nidhi Gupta   We now have 10 local communities of engineering leaders hosting in-person meetups all over the world!Local communities are led by eng leaders just like you, who wanted to create a place to connect, share insights & tackle critical challenges in the job.New York City, Boston, Chicago, Seattle, Los Angeles, San Diego, San Francisco, London, Amsterdam, and Toronto in-person events are happening now!We’re launching local events all the time - get involved at elc.community!SHOW NOTES:Defining “the third act” & exploring career paths beyond operational roles (3:24)What it was like for Nidhi to open herself up to new opportunities (6:09)How Nidhi’s passions influenced her to start SheTO (8:01)Additional consideration for & recommendations to inspire self-discovery (11:21)Why it’s important to take a break & pursue additional interests (13:06)Things that kept Nidhi honest with herself through the discovery process (14:51)Potential pathways to nontraditional eng leader roles (19:04)Ruling out particular pathways after the discovery phase (20:47)How Nidhi identified her happiness & transitioned into her role with SheTO (23:10)Strategies validating your assumptions & the journey of SheTO (25:43)SheTO’s pivot during COVID (28:39)What it looks like to give yourself permission to explore (31:05)Set goalposts & measurements for yourself (34:43)Rapid fire questions (35:16)LINKS AND RESOURCESThird Act with Liz Tinkham - Your first act is school, your second act is work, but have you thought about what you’re going to do in your third act? Join host Liz Tinkham, a former Accenture Senior Managing Director, as she talks to guests who are happily “pretired” – using their time, treasure, and talent to pursue their purpose and passion in the third act of their life.The Alex Cross series - A crime, mystery, and thriller novel series written by James Patterson. The protagonist of the series is Alex Cross, an African-American Metropolitan Police Department detective and father who counters threats to his family and the city of Washington, D.C.This episode wouldn’t have been possible without the help of our incredible production team:Patrick Gallagher - Producer & Co-HostJerry Li - Co-HostNoah Olberding - Associate Producer, Audio & Video Editor https://www.linkedin.com/in/noah-olberding/Dan Overheim - Audio Engineer, Dan’s also an avid 3D printer - https://www.bnd3d.com/Ellie Coggins Angus - Copywriter, Check out her other work at https://elliecoggins.com/about/

In this discussion, Tido Carriero, Co-Founder at Koala and former VPE at Segment, teams up with Joe Morrissey, General Partner at a16z and former CRO at Segment. They dive into their initial partnership, sharing key lessons from their cross-functional annual planning sessions. Tido and Joe highlight the necessity of trust between product and engineering for effective go-to-market strategies. They emphasize structured annual planning, customer value alignment, and the importance of embracing tension to promote collaboration and innovation across teams.

We dissect leadership lessons from across vastly different scales of eng orgs – ranging from 13,000-people companies to 10-person start-ups – with Jeremy Burton, CEO @ Observe. He shares how he effectively translated leadership skills from working at large-scale orgs to small, early-stage start-ups & addresses challenges faced when scaling at any point. Jeremy covers start-up strategies for bringing your eng teams closer to your customers & driving innovation at large-scale orgs; characteristics of eng leaders that promote successful scaling; gaining & communicating conviction; driving community engagement & building trust within developer communities; and more.ABOUT JEREMY BURTONJeremy Burton is the chief executive officer of Observe, Inc. Prior to Observe, Jeremy was Executive Vice President, Marketing & Corporate Development of Dell Technologies, and served in various leadership roles at EMC prior to Dell. A 20-year veteran of the IT industry, Jeremy joined EMC from Serena Software, where he was President and CEO. Previous to Serena, he led Symantec’s $2 billion Enterprise Security product line as Group President of Security and Data Management. Jeremy also served as Veritas’ Executive Vice President of Data Management Group and Chief Marketing Officer. Earlier in his career, he spent nearly a decade at Oracle as Senior Vice President of Product and Services Marketing. Jeremy is currently a member of the board of directors at Snowflake, a seat he's held since 2015, and maintains a part-time role on the advisory board at McLaren Group."I hear so many times both in startups and bigger companies, 'Oh, we have a sales execution issue.' If your early sales team is not successful, it's never the sales team. It's always the product. Where bigger companies have built new products, they've probably taken it to market too soon and the salespeople will take it to a mature account. It won't be as mature as the other products. The customer will complain and the salespeople will hate it. It'll get a bad name and then it'll get killed. That's the typical mode of operation that I've seen in a large company, which is why you got to keep it a secret until you've got the MVP, then work with a small set of customers and set the right expectation. When you get it right, you've immediately got a distribution channel that you can scale. If you get it wrong, you'll never scale it and you'll just create a whole bunch of problems in your customer base.”- Jeremy Burton   We now have 10 local communities of engineering leaders hosting in-person meetups all over the world!Local communities are led by eng leaders just like you, who wanted to create a place to connect, share insights & tackle critical challenges in the job.New York City, Boston, Chicago, Seattle, Los Angeles, San Diego, San Francisco, London, Amsterdam, and Toronto in-person events are happening now!We’re launching local events all the time - get involved at elc.community!SHOW NOTES:Operating at a scale of 13,000 people vs. early stage with 10 (3:13)How Jeremy adapted to operating at vastly different scales (6:30)Transitioning from a back seat role to the front seat (8:32)Approaches to helping folks better operate in ambiguity & face the unknown (11:20)Cycles that gave Jeremy more confidence to operate in instability (14:26)The romanticization of start-ups & challenges with scaling (18:22)Why eng teams should work directly with customers at start-ups (21:14)Leveraging leadership at large orgs to bring eng teams closer to customers (24:36)Strategies for innovation at large-scale orgs (27:38)Dynamics at big companies that incentivize killing new projects (30:38)Characters of eng leaders that lead to successful scaling / innovation (32:56)Recommendations for gaining conviction & communicating that effectively (34:33)Conversation frameworks for creating alignment (37:43)How to create influence & community engagement for developers (38:55)Gaining trust within your community & exuding authenticity (42:10)Rapid fire questions (44:42)This episode wouldn’t have been possible without the help of our incredible production team:Patrick Gallagher - Producer & Co-HostJerry Li - Co-HostNoah Olberding - Associate Producer, Audio & Video Editor https://www.linkedin.com/in/noah-olberding/Dan Overheim - Audio Engineer, Dan’s also an avid 3D printer - https://www.bnd3d.com/Ellie Coggins Angus - Copywriter, Check out her other work at https://elliecoggins.com/about/

Thuan Pham, former CTO of Uber & Coupang, shares pivotal leadership moments & career advice with Li Fan. Topics include scaling during hypergrowth, keeping teams motivated during crises, qualities of a great engineering leader, and reflections on immigrant upbringing. The podcast explores challenges of scaling technical systems, navigating leadership in a growing company, and evolving leadership qualities like trustworthiness and setting high standards.

In today’s episode, we’re resharing Dheeraj Pandey’s popular session from ELC Annual 2023 on the disciplined pursuit of less! As the Co-Founder, CEO & Chairman of DevRev.ai, he shares how AI tools can maximize customer impact & reduce information asymmetry between various teams, including eng, customer support, product, sales, etc., ultimately creating a more customer-centric mindset. He reveals how to leverage AI to tackle “verbs,” such as classifying, routing, attributing, summarizing and more, further streamlining productivity and empowering your org to focus on customer needs.ABOUT DHEERAJ PANDEYDheeraj Pandey is the co-founder & CEO of DevRev.ai, one of the hottest startups in Silicon Valley, with over 70 million dollars in seed funding.He previously founded Nutanix (Nasdaq: NTNX), a global leader in enterprise cloud software and hyperconverged infrastructure solutions, and currently sits on the board of Adobe (Nasdaq: ADBE) and is a member of their Audit Committee.Dheeraj co-founded Nutanix in 2009 and led as its CEO and Chairman for 11+ years. Boasting the largest software IPO in 2016, Nutanix is now a multi-billion dollar company with thousands of employees in over 60 countries. Pandey has been recognized with prestigious industry awards, including Dell's Founders 50 and the E&Y Entrepreneur of the Year, Silicon Valley.Before founding Nutanix, Pandey was the VP of engineering at Aster Data (now Teradata). His technology and enterprise software experience include engineering and leadership roles at Oracle, Zambeel and Trilogy Software. Pandey has been recognized with several prestigious industry awards, including Dell's Founders 50 and the E&Y Entrepreneur of the Year, Silicon Valley. Pandey holds a degree in Computer Science from the Indian Institute of Technology (IIT), Kanpur,  and an M.S. in Computer Science from the University of Texas at Austin. In addition, he was a Graduate Fellow of Computer Science at the University of Texas at Austin Ph.D. program."In my last company, we had brought almost 7,000 employees together. My biggest job was to really bring all the VPs together. What does it mean for them to work together, behave well together, and respect each other? And it's all because there were all these silos of departments. If you look at the power of AI, AI knows no boundaries. If anything, it needs the entire knowledge graph and the knowledge graph of customers and product and people and their work, not just people on the inside, but also users and their activities on the outside. That's a big problem that we all have to go and solve for.”- Dheeraj Pandey   This episode is brought to you by testRigor!testRigor is trusted by tens of thousands of companies across the globe, including Netflix, Splunk, BusinessWire, and more to solve three main problems with end-to-end test automation:It’s challenging, expensive, and slow to hire QA Automation EngineersLow productivity building your own QA AutomationFragile tests, that cause maintenance to consume enormous amounts of timetestRigor solves all of the above by allowing our users to express test cases in plain EnglishTo learn more, check out a case study on testRigor hereSign up for a free trial today at testrigor.comSHOW NOTES:The role of essentialism in software dev & company building (1:52)Dheeraj’s experience fostering a customer-centric approach in all teams (4:22)Commonly used tools & why they fall short for full eng functions (7:20)Why it’s important to connect AI, analytics & collaboration features (10:15)How AI can help solve information asymmetry (13:12)Using AI for analytics to help make teams more customer-centric (15:14)Audience Q&As: A day in the life of a PM using LLMs in an interactive discussion (18:03)Tips for educating users to provide better prompts when using GenAI (22:50)How would a company typically use the DevRev product? (24:38)DevRev’s object model of support (27:21)Is DevRev capable of answering arbitrary questions once data is uploaded? (28:36)Methods used to measure performance w/ DevRev (30:02)Creating multiple namespaces w/in the same index to host multi-tenant data (31:10)Qualitative & quantitative benefits DevRev offers to its customer base (33:39)LINKS AND RESOURCESVideo Version of EpisodeAll of the Sessions from ELC AnnualThis episode wouldn’t have been possible without the help of our incredible production team:Patrick Gallagher - Producer & Co-HostJerry Li - Co-HostNoah Olberding - Associate Producer, Audio & Video Editor https://www.linkedin.com/in/noah-olberding/Dan Overheim - Audio Engineer, Dan’s also an avid 3D printer - https://www.bnd3d.com/Ellie Coggins Angus - Copywriter, Check out her other work at https://elliecoggins.com/about/