

Product Agility
Ben Maynard
Less Method. More Meaning.The world of Product Discovery and Creation is becoming increasingly challenging due to mistakes and missed opportunities that are prevalent in agile teams, large-scale Scrum and all other agile frameworks. History has shown that when organisations try and scale their product development to more than one cross-functional team, mistakes are made that cut short many chances of getting all possible benefits.The route of this for many is the need for more attention paid to the incredible advancements in Product Management driven by hordes of professional Product People who prove that making their customers happier is not a pipe dream but a hard and fast reality.This podcast exists to explore all topics related to Product and Agility and Coaching. How do you marry the agile principles with Product discovery?Is it really possible to have hundreds of cross-functional teams (or Product Teams) all working from an effectively prioritised single Product Backlog and a dedicated Product Owner?How can you embrace continuous improvement and empirical process control for your product, people and processes?Ever wondered how to overcome the problems people face when trying to scale the Product Owner role and how it relates to Product Management and Product Teams?Baffled by how to define a product in such a way that enables Feature Teams (aka Product Teams) and why doing wrong means you will only ever be stuck with technical teams? Scrum Teams are not compatible with modern product management techniques.Want to know what Product Focus means and how the right focus makes creating a shippable product less painful?Need to get your head around how to blend modern product management techniques with Sprint Planning and Sprint Reviews to achieve Product Increments that cover the entire product?This podcast's original focus was on Scaling Scrum vs Single-Team Scrum and how organisations can reap the benefits of Scrum when working on a larger product but still keeping a single product backlog. We found many Product People liked what we said, and then the penny dropped. This isn't a podcast about scaling Scrum or the limitations of single-team Scrum.This podcast is for Product People & agile advocates who coach or get their hands dirty with Product creation.We promise there is no Taboo topic that we will not explore on your behalf. We aim to transcend the conversations about a single team, Daily Scrums, Scrum Masters and the double-diamond and bring everyone together into responsible teams dedicated to working on the entire product to make their customers happier and their lives more fulfilling.Come and join us on our improvement towards perfection, and give us your feedback (we have a strong customer focus, too), and who knows, perhaps we will discover the magic wand that we can wave over all the broken agile and sudo-products to create a more resilient and adaptable future by bringing the worlds of Product, Agility and coaching together.This podcast has the conversations and insights you need.
Episodes
Mentioned books

Apr 13, 2022 • 6min
Why I Prefer LeSS over SAFe
Send us a textI (Ben here) have never really enjoyed telling me what to do.It has served me well over the years by gifting me with a very enjoyable, zig zagging career path and the freedom to spend time with the people that I love the most.Why am I saying this?Because Large Scale Scrum has played a ginormous part in the journey, not by telling me, in detail, what I should do. Rather it has provided me with some principles, challenging ideas and a community that have helped me to help others really push the boundaries of what they thought was possible with multi-team agile but in a way that worked (and still works) for them.Perhaps from this you can infer where I am going with this and perhaps why I prefer LeSS over SAFe, if you spend 5 minutes of your time listening to this episode I will give you some the benefit of my years and perhaps even change your opinion of SAFe (or LeSS) a little. Host Bio Ben is a seasoned expert in product agility coaching, unleashing the potential of people and products. With over a decade of experience, his focus now is product-led growth & agility in organisations of all sizes. Stay up-to-date with us on our social media📱! Ben Maynard 🔗 https://www.linkedin.com/in/benmaynard-sheev/ 🐦 https://x.com/BenWMaynard 💻 https://sheev.co.uk/ Product Agility Podcast 🔗 https://www.linkedin.com/company/productagilitypod/ 💻 https://productagilitypod.co.uk/ 🖇️ https://linktr.ee/productagility Listen & Share On Spotify & iTunes Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/0lkwAYJzVSuk5zfJ1vIDZq?si=4c691fb12f124a56 iTunes - https://apple.co/3YvTX8p Want to come on the podcast? Want to be a guest or have a guest request? Let us know here https://bit.ly/49osN80

Apr 7, 2022 • 48min
Jürgen De Smet (Your Chief Simplification Officer), Certified LeSS Trainer Interview - Part 2
Send us a textWelcome to part 2! This is the best 2nd episode for one LeSS Trainer conversation we have ever published!! (and the first ;-) ) Last time we spoke about Potty Training (or at least I did), in part two we cover the remaining LeSS Trainer questions and also cover some of these tasty topics:Learn how Jurgen and Ben work through their differences when they disagree on Ben’s desire for LeSS to be more popularShould LeSS be mainstream, and if not why not?Find out what Ben is thinking about for the LeSS Matters Christmas SpecialsDo people want LeSS or simply multi-team Scrum and what's the difference?What does it take to push Jurgens boundaries?Is Scrum Master and Agile coaching a role or an industry?Is a Scrum Master and Agile Coach?FOMO is driving agile transitions leading to top-down change effortsThese are the LeSS Trainer questions we covered:What’s the one thing, above all others, you love about LeSS?What was your favourite LeSS adoption?If you could change one thing about LeSS what would it be?Agile In GeneralWhat is something in the agile world that should have been more popular? Following on from this, what is going to be the next big thing?A lot of extra stuff was mentioned, here are some links I promised and others I did not:The Land that Scrum forgotCoaching SupervisionICF and EMMC Team CoachingICF Codes of EthicsAny academic research for coaching effectivenessSoftware craftsmanship and testing community BelgiumSandro Mancuso - CodeuranceBas’s Tech excellence talk from the LeSS conference 2021Host Bio Ben is a seasoned expert in product agility coaching, unleashing the potential of people and products. With over a decade of experience, his focus now is product-led growth & agility in organisations of all sizes. Stay up-to-date with us on our social media📱! Ben Maynard 🔗 https://www.linkedin.com/in/benmaynard-sheev/ 🐦 https://x.com/BenWMaynard 💻 https://sheev.co.uk/ Product Agility Podcast 🔗 https://www.linkedin.com/company/productagilitypod/ 💻 https://productagilitypod.co.uk/ 🖇️ https://linktr.ee/productagility Listen & Share On Spotify & iTunes Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/0lkwAYJzVSuk5zfJ1vIDZq?si=4c691fb12f124a56 iTunes - https://apple.co/3YvTX8p Want to come on the podcast? Want to be a guest or have a guest request? Let us know here https://bit.ly/49osN80

Apr 6, 2022 • 4min
The Role of a Project Manager in an Agile Environment
Send us a textYou often find that newly minted #scrummasters are incredibly enthusiastic about the idea that #projectmanagers don't have the same kind of authority or power as they do in a traditional #projectmanagement environment.For the true die-hard evangelists, there is no place for project managers in #scrum environments or #agile frameworks whatsoever. Something which doesn't go down very well with project managers.So, what do we do with project managers?For anyone who has worked with great project managers, you will know that they are passionate about creating products and features that truly delight customers. They are incredible people with the valuable skill set of being able to build relationships and keep project stakeholders on board through each element of the #project they manage.Why does #scrum not value these individuals? Why do agile frameworks not make provision for the amazing skillsets and passionate drive of these individuals?Truth is, they do.#agile is both a culture and mindset that truly values people. It prioritises people over processes and seeks to create environments where individuals and teams can excel, people with great project management skills, given the right support can be true advocates for this.In this short video, #LeSS coach and #trainer Ben Maynard walks us through the role of a project manager in an agile environment. If you're a project manager thinking about using the Scrum framework, at scale, that lives in the real world rather than dogma you're going to love this.Visit https://www.sheev.co.uk for more information on Ben Maynard and how we can work with you on your project management and product development needs.Find us on socials:LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/less-matters-community Twitter - https://twitter.com/LeSSMattersComm Skillsmatter -https://skillsmatter.com/groups/10964-less-mattersThank you for watching! Subscribe for more. #agile #scrum #LeSS #largescalescrum #projectmanagement #productdevelopment #certifiedlesspractitioner #agilecoach #lesscoach #agiletrainer #projectmanagerHost Bio Ben is a seasoned expert in product agility coaching, unleashing the potential of people and products. With over a decade of experience, his focus now is product-led growth & agility in organisations of all sizes. Stay up-to-date with us on our social media📱! Ben Maynard 🔗 https://www.linkedin.com/in/benmaynard-sheev/ 🐦 https://x.com/BenWMaynard 💻 https://sheev.co.uk/ Product Agility Podcast 🔗 https://www.linkedin.com/company/productagilitypod/ 💻 https://productagilitypod.co.uk/ 🖇️ https://linktr.ee/productagility Listen & Share On Spotify & iTunes Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/0lkwAYJzVSuk5zfJ1vIDZq?si=4c691fb12f124a56 iTunes - https://apple.co/3YvTX8p Want to come on the podcast? Want to be a guest or have a guest request? Let us know here https://bit.ly/49osN80

Mar 31, 2022 • 40min
Jürgen De Smet (Your Chief Simplification Officer), Certified LeSS Trainer Interview - Part 1
Send us a textHow does Jurgen greet CEO's in an elevator?By saying "Do you also find that this is a real mess out here!?" An unorthodox approach perhaps, but the way he delivers it must be heard! In this episode, Your Chief Simplification Officer, Jürgen De Smet and host Ben Maynard got along very well, almost too well as they ended up speaking for almost 2 hours. Brilliant conversation, too long for a podcast so we have split this into two parts.This is Part 1 and in it, you can:How organisational change is like potty training a child (clue, it can be quite messy if you do not do it well)Find out the key to creating an effective elevator pitchHear about how to balance the LeSS Adoption principle of Deep and Narrow in a 5000 person organisation where everyone is to be agileLearn about 4 different types of complexity that need to be addressed when simplifying your organisationHere about how LeSS does work with distributed teams (as well as co-located)Discover if LeSS is suitable for people who cannot yet think within the agile or LeSS principles and if not what are their options.Discover if you can ever say you have truely "Done" a LeSS AdoptionFind out what Jurgen thinks of PMBOK and Prince 2 AgileLearn why you should not base LeSS useage decisions on conversations and what you should do insteadFind out how Jurgen priototises his work to give him energy, not take it awayDiscover what kaikaku isSeeing as we spoke for so long, in this episode we covered the following questions About LeSSWhat is your elevator pitch for LeSS?Did you choose LeSS or did LeSS choose you?Stuff that was spoken aboutKaikakuJurgen de Smet: From idea towards a LeSS kaikaku @LeSS Day Europe 2020 (Scrum Ukraine)LeSS Case StudiesAgfaHost Bio Ben is a seasoned expert in product agility coaching, unleashing the potential of people and products. With over a decade of experience, his focus now is product-led growth & agility in organisations of all sizes. Stay up-to-date with us on our social media📱! Ben Maynard 🔗 https://www.linkedin.com/in/benmaynard-sheev/ 🐦 https://x.com/BenWMaynard 💻 https://sheev.co.uk/ Product Agility Podcast 🔗 https://www.linkedin.com/company/productagilitypod/ 💻 https://productagilitypod.co.uk/ 🖇️ https://linktr.ee/productagility Listen & Share On Spotify & iTunes Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/0lkwAYJzVSuk5zfJ1vIDZq?si=4c691fb12f124a56 iTunes - https://apple.co/3YvTX8p Want to come on the podcast? Want to be a guest or have a guest request? Let us know here https://bit.ly/49osN80

Mar 24, 2022 • 2min
Jürgen De Smet (Your Chief Simplification Officer) Interview Teaser
Send us a textHost Bio Ben is a seasoned expert in product agility coaching, unleashing the potential of people and products. With over a decade of experience, his focus now is product-led growth & agility in organisations of all sizes. Stay up-to-date with us on our social media📱! Ben Maynard 🔗 https://www.linkedin.com/in/benmaynard-sheev/ 🐦 https://x.com/BenWMaynard 💻 https://sheev.co.uk/ Product Agility Podcast 🔗 https://www.linkedin.com/company/productagilitypod/ 💻 https://productagilitypod.co.uk/ 🖇️ https://linktr.ee/productagility Listen & Share On Spotify & iTunes Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/0lkwAYJzVSuk5zfJ1vIDZq?si=4c691fb12f124a56 iTunes - https://apple.co/3YvTX8p Want to come on the podcast? Want to be a guest or have a guest request? Let us know here https://bit.ly/49osN80

Mar 23, 2022 • 46min
Bas Vodde Co-Creator of Large Scale Scrum Interview
Send us a textI was stoked that Bas Vodde, co-creator of the LeSS (Large Scale Scrum, www.LeSS.works) framework, agreed to come on the show and answer my favourite questions that I aim to ask every LeSS trainer over the coming shows:About LeSS(+) What is your elevator pitch for LeSS?(+) Did you choose LeSS or did LeSS choose you?(+) What’s the one thing, above all others, you love about LeSS?(+) What was your favourite LeSS adoption?(+) If you could change one thing about LeSS what would it be?Agile In General(+) What is something in the agile world that should have been more popular? (+) Following on from this, what is going to be the next big thing?Bas Vodde (https://less.works/profiles/bas-vodde) is an experienced coach in agile methods and especially Scrum. He’s also a certified Scrum trainer. He is originally from Holland, however, has lived in China, Finland and is currently living in Singapore. In the 90s he worked as a developer in Holland and felt a mismatch between what he experienced as working and between “what the official literature said you should do”. That was solved with the introduction of Extreme Programming and even more so, with Agile Development in general. At the beginning of 2001, he had enough of the “normal life” and moved to China where he started working for Nokia. Here, he gained experience on very large projects and the traditional ways they are run. After this, he became even more convinced that Agile Development is the way forward, for all size projects.Bas created the LeSS framework with Craig Larman (https://www.craiglarman.com/) over a number of years working alongside each other, a topic which we explore in this interview.A number of things were mentioned during the interview, I felt it right to share some links here to make it easier for you to see what we were speaking about:LeSS Case Studies (https://less.works/case-studies)There are 10’s of great case studies here to read, Ben’s RBS case study (https://less.works/case-studies/rbs) is a great example and the most recently released case study on huge LeSS Huge, autonomous driving at BMW (https://less.works/case-studies/bmw-group-autonomous-driving), whilst a hefty read is well worth it.Test-Driven Development (https://less.works/less/technical-excellence/test-driven-dHost Bio Ben is a seasoned expert in product agility coaching, unleashing the potential of people and products. With over a decade of experience, his focus now is product-led growth & agility in organisations of all sizes. Stay up-to-date with us on our social media📱! Ben Maynard 🔗 https://www.linkedin.com/in/benmaynard-sheev/ 🐦 https://x.com/BenWMaynard 💻 https://sheev.co.uk/ Product Agility Podcast 🔗 https://www.linkedin.com/company/productagilitypod/ 💻 https://productagilitypod.co.uk/ 🖇️ https://linktr.ee/productagility Listen & Share On Spotify & iTunes Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/0lkwAYJzVSuk5zfJ1vIDZq?si=4c691fb12f124a56 iTunes - https://apple.co/3YvTX8p Want to come on the podcast? Want to be a guest or have a guest request? Let us know here https://bit.ly/49osN80

Mar 21, 2022 • 5min
Robert Briese - Did you choose LeSS or did LeSS choose you?
Send us a textEach person finds their way in the #agile world through a complex combination of training, coaching, mentorship and the experiences they gained working in #scrum environments.In the world of #LeSS also known as Large Scale Scrum, that circle is a little smaller and tighter.The people in this space have worked on significant #LeSS adoptions and #scaling #scrum in a live environment is one of the more challenging endeavours you can sign up for. It breeds a specific type of person who is passionate about how #LeSS can transform organisations and bring innovative products to market.In some cases, it is a journey that is guided under the mentorship of a trusted colleague or manager. In other cases, it's a myriad of interconnected moments and transitions that brings you into the world of Large Scale Scrum.In this short video, Ben Maynard - #LeSS expert, #coach and #trainer - explores how Robert Briese became an evangelist and coach for Large Scale Scrum. Was it something that Robert actively chose or was it something that appears to have chosen his unique blend of skills, personality, and capability?If you feel like #LeSS may be choosing you, visit our Certified LeSS Practitioner course page on https://sheev.co.uk/certified-less-practitioner/ to find out how we can bring you aboard.If you and your organisation are looking for a rock-solid framework to #scale #scrum and would like to explore how Ben can help you do exactly that, visit https://sheev.co.uk/services/ for more information on our coaching and consulting services.If you're an aspiring #agilecoach and want to explore how you can get prepared and certified as an Agile Team Coach, visit https://sheev.co.uk/certified-agile-team-coach-icagile/ to explore our IC Agile Certified Agile Team Coach course.#agile #scrum #projectmanagement #productdevelopment #agileprojectmanagement #LeSS #largescalescrum #ICAgile #agilecoach #agilescrumtrainingHost Bio Ben is a seasoned expert in product agility coaching, unleashing the potential of people and products. With over a decade of experience, his focus now is product-led growth & agility in organisations of all sizes. Stay up-to-date with us on our social media📱! Ben Maynard 🔗 https://www.linkedin.com/in/benmaynard-sheev/ 🐦 https://x.com/BenWMaynard 💻 https://sheev.co.uk/ Product Agility Podcast 🔗 https://www.linkedin.com/company/productagilitypod/ 💻 https://productagilitypod.co.uk/ 🖇️ https://linktr.ee/productagility Listen & Share On Spotify & iTunes Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/0lkwAYJzVSuk5zfJ1vIDZq?si=4c691fb12f124a56 iTunes - https://apple.co/3YvTX8p Want to come on the podcast? Want to be a guest or have a guest request? Let us know here https://bit.ly/49osN80

Mar 18, 2022 • 5min
Robert Briese - What would you change about LeSS?
Send us a textLarge Scale Scrum or #LeSS is one of the most proven scaling frameworks for #scrum.It has been successfully adopted around the world in a myriad of different applications, markets, and circumstances.In each case, #LeSS proves its worth as an #agile framework for helping organisations, teams and individuals develop products and services that truly delight customers. It also helps them achieve that far quicker than their competitors and evolve through continuous learning and improvement.For #agile evangelists and Large Scale Scrum practitioners alike, the framework has helped them solve some incredibly complex problems and develop solutions that are compelling, creative, and valuable to customers and product stakeholders.What isn’t there to like?Like any #agile framework or style of work, there are always a few elements that challenge us, especially in volatile, uncertain, complex, and ambiguous environments. Little things we wish we could change to help us tailor the adoption to its specific application and environment.In this short video, Ben Maynard - #LeSS certified #coach, #trainer and expert – speaks to Robert Briese about what he would change about LeSS (Large Scale Scrum) if they had the opportunity to do so.Business Agility is built on the solid foundation of inspection and adaptation. The concept that we learn as we grow, course-correct based on that evidence, and use what we have learned to innovate.LeSS is no different. We are always on the lookout for new ideas, thoughts, and recommendations that will help us make #LeSS even more powerful and responsive than it is today.If you are interested in adopting Large Scale Scrum (#LeSS) in your own environment and would like to chat to Ben Maynard about coaching, consulting or training requirements, please visit https://sheev.co.uk/about-us/services/ for more information.If you are inspired by the idea of working within LeSS (Large Scale Scrum) environments, visit our Certified LeSS Practitioner course page on https://sheev.co.uk/learning/scaling-agile/certified-less-practitioner-2/ to find out how you can upskill and get internationally certified.If you are an aspiring Agile Coach and would like to invest in training and certification to help you land that dream opportunity, visit our IC Agile CerHost Bio Ben is a seasoned expert in product agility coaching, unleashing the potential of people and products. With over a decade of experience, his focus now is product-led growth & agility in organisations of all sizes. Stay up-to-date with us on our social media📱! Ben Maynard 🔗 https://www.linkedin.com/in/benmaynard-sheev/ 🐦 https://x.com/BenWMaynard 💻 https://sheev.co.uk/ Product Agility Podcast 🔗 https://www.linkedin.com/company/productagilitypod/ 💻 https://productagilitypod.co.uk/ 🖇️ https://linktr.ee/productagility Listen & Share On Spotify & iTunes Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/0lkwAYJzVSuk5zfJ1vIDZq?si=4c691fb12f124a56 iTunes - https://apple.co/3YvTX8p Want to come on the podcast? Want to be a guest or have a guest request? Let us know here https://bit.ly/49osN80

Mar 18, 2022 • 6min
Bas Vodde - If you could change one thing about LeSS what would it be?
Send us a textAs the co-founder of #LeSS (Large Scale Scrum), Bas Vodde played a crucial role in the development and refinement of the #agile framework used to scale #scrum.It's been successfully adopted in multiple countries and under multiple applications yet there is always room for improvement, especially in a world where 'continuous improvement' or kaizen is always the goal.So what would Bas change about #LeSS? What would the one change be that would make him even prouder of his creation than he has every right to be?Ben Maynard, #LeSS certified #coach and #trainer, asked Bas Vodde this exact question in a recent podcast. Ben also questioned whether Bas and Craig Larman (co-founder of LeSS) ever doubted the #scrum was the right foundation from which to build this framework.Hit the play button to find out Bas's response to these two great questions.If you like the idea of Large Scale Scrum as an option for scaling #scrum in your environment, touch base with Ben Maynard to find out how we can help. Sheev offers everything from #LeSS certified training all the way through to #coaching and #consulting engagements.Visit https://www.sheev.co.uk for more information.#agile #scrum #largescalescrum #less #scrumframework #projectmanagement #productdevelopment #softwaredevelopment #scalingscrum #scalingagile #agileframeworksHost Bio Ben is a seasoned expert in product agility coaching, unleashing the potential of people and products. With over a decade of experience, his focus now is product-led growth & agility in organisations of all sizes. Stay up-to-date with us on our social media📱! Ben Maynard 🔗 https://www.linkedin.com/in/benmaynard-sheev/ 🐦 https://x.com/BenWMaynard 💻 https://sheev.co.uk/ Product Agility Podcast 🔗 https://www.linkedin.com/company/productagilitypod/ 💻 https://productagilitypod.co.uk/ 🖇️ https://linktr.ee/productagility Listen & Share On Spotify & iTunes Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/0lkwAYJzVSuk5zfJ1vIDZq?si=4c691fb12f124a56 iTunes - https://apple.co/3YvTX8p Want to come on the podcast? Want to be a guest or have a guest request? Let us know here https://bit.ly/49osN80

Mar 17, 2022 • 5min
Product Owner = Gambler?!
Send us a textIn the traditional #waterfall style of project management, a #projectmanager will try and identify the scope of the #project upfront. They invest a great deal of time and effort in identifying all the potential variables that may impact the project and what the potential dependencies might be. If you are looking at a structured, regulated, and complicated environment like civil engineering, that isn't so much of a problem because heaps of bridges have been built and both project managers and civil engineers know how to build them well. The problem comes in when you step into the world of complex environments. Environments where customers, markets, competitors, etc. are all in play. You could invest 5 years building a project or product only to find that customers don't like or want it. You could find that 3 years into your project, new legislation comes into play that prevents you from ever releasing your product. Any one of a million variables could impact that long term, complex project and render all your work unusable and worthless. This is why #agile and #scrum has become such popular methodologies for product development. They empower people and organisations to build products and features that truly delight customers. They empower teams to collaborate around the most valuable work and most compelling problems with creativity and ingenuity. That said, being a #productowner is still an incredibly difficult job. As the CEO of the product, they need to create a backlog of items that they think customers and product stakeholders will love and they have to articulate a vision for that product that is both compelling and inspiring. As product owners, they are articulating what needs doing and why it is valuable. They are also estimating the relative importance of each item to customers and stakeholders in the hope that the new feature or product drives customer adoption and sales. Tough gig. In the #agile world, it is referred to as making small bets rather than placing all of your bets on a single home run 5 years down the line. The thinking is that a series of small bets empowers you to steer your ship in alignment with customer feedback and data, and if one of your bets doesn't work out you haven't bet the farm on it. So, does that make a product owneHost Bio Ben is a seasoned expert in product agility coaching, unleashing the potential of people and products. With over a decade of experience, his focus now is product-led growth & agility in organisations of all sizes. Stay up-to-date with us on our social media📱! Ben Maynard 🔗 https://www.linkedin.com/in/benmaynard-sheev/ 🐦 https://x.com/BenWMaynard 💻 https://sheev.co.uk/ Product Agility Podcast 🔗 https://www.linkedin.com/company/productagilitypod/ 💻 https://productagilitypod.co.uk/ 🖇️ https://linktr.ee/productagility Listen & Share On Spotify & iTunes Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/0lkwAYJzVSuk5zfJ1vIDZq?si=4c691fb12f124a56 iTunes - https://apple.co/3YvTX8p Want to come on the podcast? Want to be a guest or have a guest request? Let us know here https://bit.ly/49osN80