The Better Boards Podcast Series

Send us a textOwner-led organisations are the backbone of economies worldwide. Yet when the primary stakeholder is in the room, Boards must navigate a unique set of dynamics to be effective with governance, strategy issues, and advising.In this podcast, Dr Sabine Dembkowski, Founder and Managing Partner of Better Boards, is joined by Tina Mavraki, who brings 27 years of board finance and natural resources experience to the conversation. A Chartered Portfolio Director, Tina held senior roles at Morgan Stanley, Citi, and Noble Group, where she scaled up multi-billion-dollar businesses. Her board portfolio spans FTSE100 candidate Metlen Energy & Metals S.A. and First Bauxite. “Invariably, owners invite a Board into their structure because they're looking to make a transformation.”In Tina’s experience, the biggest reason owner-led companies establish a Board is for help with a significant change or transformation. They anticipate this development and aim to expand the pool of expertise and guidance available to them.“What owners get out of this is perspective.”Owners have a vision, but a Board provides perspective. This offsets an owner’s personal limitations and helps expand a vision into a coherent and workable plan. Boards also provide the emotional, mental, and tactical support for major transformations.“Boundaries are the most beautiful tension you can get.”For Tina, the way the Board and the owner define, expand, and refine boundaries is a significant experience. Figuring out lines and limits, understanding how those need to evolve to fulfil future ambitions, and creating workable succession, continuation, and growth plans are all places where Board members can have a measurable impact It begins by building trust. This is especially important in owner-led firms. In most cases, the owner will know vastly more about the organisation’s operational details. So, Tina recommends that Board members make extra effort to understand the organisation and its structure, how it generates profits, and all its key players. “You need to understand very intimately the founders themselves. What are the key attributes that have brought this person here?”In owner-led organisations, the Board and the owner have a more personal relationship. To make effective interventions, provide mentoring, or offer quality advice. Tina believes that Directors must first gain a deep understanding of the owner, including their strengths and areas for growth. Then, for best results, coordinate with the Board as a whole on sensitive conversations or strategic interventions.“I like Advisory Boards very much… they are a beautiful forum.”For owner-led companies where a full, formal Board is not a fit, Tina likes Advisory Boards. To her, they can bring in guest experts to dive into issues. This rotation of minds also brings access to senior-level experts who may not have the time for a Board role, but who are willing to come and share their knowledge. The three top takeaways from this conversation for effective boards are:1.      Make time to understand the operating environment, the priorities, the players, and when and how to intervene. 2.     Lean into the Board process. 3.     Board impacCome Join The Better Boards Community We’d love to get to know you! If you’d like to become part of the Better Boards community, discover our unique approach, and explore ways to work with us or share your ideas on The Better Boards Podcast series, drop us a line at info@better-boards.com.

Send us a textWhen pressures mount, Boards often default to easy narratives. Yet, today more than ever, it is important for Boards to pursue the uncomfortable truths. Critical thinking, discernment, and strategic dissent are key advantages Boards want to cultivate and celebrate.In this podcast, Dr Sabine Dembkowski, Founder and Managing Partner of Better Boards, connects with Alex Edmans, Professor of Finance at London Business School. Alex holds a PhD from MIT and was previously a tenured professor at Wharton and an investment banker at Morgan Stanley. An in-demand speaker, Alex also serves as a Non-Executive Director of various high-profile organisations and a Fellow of the British Academy and of the Academy of Social Sciences. “Rather than making broad claims … what I try to do is be more granular and look at the specific … dimensions that pay off.”Alex sees Boards falling into common traps by failing to appreciate and acknowledge the nuances. Is sustainability universally and unequivocally the right path forward in all situations and at all times? Stated in this way, it is clear that the answer is no, yet boardrooms around the world hesitate to raise even slight amounts of dissent or debate.It is the same with other situations Boards face. A lack of consideration for specificity, nuance, and the latest peer-reviewed research sets Boards up to be victims of trendy thinking, unprofitable generalities, and unproductive solutions.“Think critically. If there is a study, think about “Are there alternative explanations for that result?”Alex believes boards can avoid intellectual traps by engaging in critical thinking and intentional questioning. Look for alternative explanations to prevent being misled by industry headwinds or tailwinds, to avoid confusing rare talent with repeatable success, and to guard against internal biases. Imagine the opposite of the result presented in any given study – would the reaction be the same? Even this simple challenge can be enough to reawaken discernment and activate critical thinking pathways. It helps separate signal from noise.“Actively seek dissent, reward it, and be wary of the fact that you as Chair … might unintentionally reduce dissenting opinions.”Chairs play a special role in fostering debate and discernment. Alex advises Chairs to refrain from giving their opinion first, create space for other views and avoid anchoring topics on “approved” outlooks. Further, when dissent or objections are overruled, reinforce that there was value in the conversation even if the decision went in a different direction. “Every company says we value a diversity of opinion, but when the rubber hits the road, how many of them act in that way?”Alex sees some companies treat dissent like a luxury reserved for good times. Yet, tough times are when honest debate and differing viewpoints matter most. He acknowledges this is not easy. Simple to say, but not easy to do. Still, defaulting to the status quo is the ultimate risk. You want to be different from your competition.The three top takeaways from our conversation for more effective boards are:1.      Academic research matters. 2.     Critical thinking matters. Question the things you want to be true. Come Join The Better Boards Community We’d love to get to know you! If you’d like to become part of the Better Boards community, discover our unique approach, and explore ways to work with us or share your ideas on The Better Boards Podcast series, drop us a line at info@better-boards.com.

Send us a textAs complexity grows and time shrinks, Board Directors are wondering how to stay ahead. AI is proving to be a performance accelerator – not just a support tool – but Boards must make an effort to incorporate it into workflows, governance, and their ongoing strategy.In this podcast, Dr Sabine Dembkowski, Founder and Managing Partner of Better Boards, connects with Jamie Green, Co-Founder and CEO of Tutaki, an AI platform built specifically for Board Directors. Drawing on his experience at McKinsey and extensive conversations with Chairs, Directors, and governance leaders, Jamie created Tutaki to transform how Board members prepare, engage, and act. With a strong foundation in strategy, governance, and AI product design, Jamie is at the forefront of a new era of “augmented directorship.”“The purpose of companies overall is to create value, and arguably the place where a lot of that value is created is the Board.”Increasing effectiveness at the Board level is massively essential for a company’s overall success. It enables a company to move faster and make better, more accurate decisions. Thus, AI tools that parse information and surface key insights can improve strategic planning and shift Board outcomes. The only thing stopping all Boards from doing this is the Boards themselves.“I think every Board should embrace AI at some level.”Jamie feels Boards should embrace AI. If they don’t, they will be left behind by others who do use it, including graduates who have been raised in an AI-native world. By leading the way, Boards can create the right frameworks and guardrails to make AI an asset to the organisation. “The best directors are using it to supplement their own insight. ... They're not using it to replace themselves.”There are very real fears around output quality, data privacy, and over-reliance. Jamie freely admits this is an evolving space and that these concerns are valid. Savvy Directors are mitigating this by being intentional about AI use, asking the right questions, having guardrails for privacy, and continuing to apply their own discernment to what the AI generates.“It's riskier not to be using AI than to be using it.”Jamie reports the risk that sticks with people most is, “What's happening to my data?” He says that with the proper guardrails in place – such as turning off the training on the models, creating a private model, or hosting the AI on-premises – it’s no different than storing documents on Google Drive. To him, it’s a much bigger risk to let the competitors gain an advantage with AI tools. What Jamie sees successful Boards doing now, in 2025, is mainly two things. First, they are having AI analyse things for them by asking tools like ChatGPT questions. Secondly, they are using AI to automate chains of events or tasks into workflows.In the future, Jamie feels there will be AI Directors. Later, that may evolve into entire AI Boards. He doubts these will ever replace true human Boards. Instead, these will fill expertise gaps, manage processes, provide a sounding board, and create intellectual sparring partners for Directors and CEOs. The three top takeaways from our conversation for effective boards are:1.       Not using AI is the riskiest option.2.     The best Directors and the best Boards are already using AI.3.     It can be hard to get the besCome Join The Better Boards Community We’d love to get to know you! If you’d like to become part of the Better Boards community, discover our unique approach, and explore ways to work with us or share your ideas on The Better Boards Podcast series, drop us a line at info@better-boards.com.

Send us a textTraditionally, the role of a board secretary has been seen as a guardian of governance, the keeper of the minutes, and the facilitator of board processes. Now, with the rise of AI, conventional expectations are being challenged. The question is how those in it will choose to respond.In this podcast, Dr Sabine Dembkowski, Founder and Managing Partner of Better Boards, is joined by Moya Hayhurst, a Fellow of the Chartered Governance Institute. Moya has over 25 years of experience in corporate governance across multiple industries, including mining, financial services, and insurance. She is also a member of the Centre for AI in Board Effectiveness research team, helping progress AI’s role in board ecosystems.“Board secretaries are caught in the middle of that [AI] transformation.”AI is everywhere, including boardrooms. Many board members already use and benefit from AI applications. They want to know how secretaries plan to make AI a part of their role.For Secretaries in purely administrative roles, this is an opportunity for a change. By becoming familiar with AI tools and utilising them to streamline administrative tasks and parse data more efficiently, Secretaries can provide more strategic analysis and insights. They can move into a leading position on governance issues, risk management, and proactive guidance.“They know where to find everything, and they know the dangers of what is at their fingertips.”Moya notes Secretaries listen and gather input from all parts of the organisation, often speaking little but influencing quietly in the background. With AI, Boards and Secretaries have the chance to surface more of the institutional knowledge Secretaries contain, do it efficiently, and do it in a way that brings key insights forward when they are needed most. “You have to step out of the shadows and make your voice heard.”For Secretaries to succeed, Moya recommends leaning on networks and peers. She advises doing what the Company Secretary has always done best: asking questions, understanding the risks and dynamics, and then looking internally to figure out how to help the company navigate the situation. For her, the biggest thing is not to say no. Ask how. Connect with individuals who, in many cases, will be more than happy to talk and share their knowledge and insights. Secretaries don’t have to know how to do everything, just how to step out and ask. “If we continue to justify ourselves as administrators and write a good set of minutes, we will not have a future.”For Moya, the choice is clear. Secretaries can choose to be pure administrators and be replaced by AI tools, or they can embrace change. By leaning into the shift in mindset and leading by example in embracing new tools, Secretaries can create a very interesting role for themselves for years to come. The three top takeaways from our conversation for more effective boards are:1.      This is not a task shift. It's a role shift. The role needs to evolve in purpose, not just process.2.     The Board Secretary must step forward. If they don't, someone else will. It's not a competition, but a necessity.3.     For new Secretaries, there’s a need to be very intentional about developing capabilities. SecreCome Join The Better Boards Community We’d love to get to know you! If you’d like to become part of the Better Boards community, discover our unique approach, and explore ways to work with us or share your ideas on The Better Boards Podcast series, drop us a line at info@better-boards.com.

Send us a textIn this episode of the Better Boards Podcast, Professor Katja Langenbucher explores how boards can embrace AI to future-proof their decision-making.Dr. Sabine Dembkowski speaks with Katja, a law professor at Goethe University in Frankfurt and affiliated with SciencesPo, Paris. She serves on the supervisory boards of BaFin and IEP, bringing extensive boardroom and academic experience.AI is rapidly reshaping industries—from pharmaceuticals to finance—and boards can no longer afford to stand still. Katja outlines why boards must move past hesitation and actively integrate AI into their processes. She explains how leading organisations embed AI into strategy, what this means under the business judgment rule, and why AI should challenge—not replace—human insight.AI isn’t a Trend—It’s Becoming a Legal Expectationisn’t a Trend—It’s becoming a Legal expectation. AIAI may still seem opaque to some directors, but that view is increasingly out of step with governance expectations. In jurisdictions applying the business judgment rule, directors must demonstrate informed, reasonable decision-making. AI is becoming part of that expectation. “Very soon, you cannot claim to be well-informed without consulting an AI.” Boards have long leaned on expert input for board evaluations and strategic oversight. Going forward, AI must be part of that toolkit—or boards risk falling short of legal standards.From Coffee Chains to Capital Markets: The Real-World Power of AIKatja cites practical use cases—like how Starbucks applies AI to optimise store locations using behavioural, geographic, and competitor data. “You can use AI to identify an M&A target, spot a hostile takeover risk, or even test how markets might respond to your messaging.” Yet, she observes that AI is still rarely referenced in board evaluations or agendas, despite its ability to surface risks, run scenario models, and sharpen decision-making.The New Role of Company SecretariesCompany secretaries are ideally placed to help boards adopt AI meaningfully. Katja is clear: directors don’t need to code—they need to ask better questions. “Nobody is asking directors to code—but boards must ask the right questions.”Challenging Groupthink and Elevating DebateGroupthink continues to undermine board effectiveness. Katja shares a compelling example of using AI to simulate press responses—ranging from neutral to harsh—on a sensitive issue. “Seeing a mock ‘nasty article’ on the big screen challenged the entire board’s thinking.”AI as Induction, Humans as InterpretationAI and human judgment are not competing forces—they are complementary. AI finds patterns. Humans interpret them. “A good strategic decision is always a combination of AI and human thinking.”Three Key TakeawaysDon’t Be Late to the Party - AI is fast becoming a market standard. Boards that delay their adoption risk strategic, legal, and reputational disadvantage.Blend AI with Human Judgment - Strategic decisions should integrate the pattern-finding power of AI with the contextual understanding of directors.Use the AI That Suits Your Board - Every corporation has a unique data pool. Boards must define the questions AI should answer—and then select the right tools.Come Join The Better Boards Community We’d love to get to know you! If you’d like to become part of the Better Boards community, discover our unique approach, and explore ways to work with us or share your ideas on The Better Boards Podcast series, drop us a line at info@better-boards.com.

Send us a textIn an era marked by rapid change, technological disruption, geopolitical uncertainty, and economic volatility, understanding how analysts perceive boards is more important than ever. We turned to an analyst who operates independently of major financial institutions for a truly candid perspective.In this episode of the Better Boards Podcast Series, Dr Sabine Dembkowski, Founder and Managing Partner of Better Boards, speaks with Anke Richter, a seasoned credit analyst and strategist with nearly 30 years of experience in the bond markets. Based in London, Anke has held positions at JP Morgan, Deutsche Bank, and Moody’s, and brings a unique vantage point shaped by her work on both the buy-side and sell-side, as well as in a rating agency. She holds both the CFA Charter and CIMA accountancy qualification.A Two-Step Approach to Company AnalysisAccording to Anke, the fundamentals of analysing a company haven’t changed: “What you do when analysing a company is always the same.”Step one involves scrutinising the company’s fundamentals—numbers, valuations, and performance indicators. Step two involves examining red flags in leadership or governance. Common issues include overly dominant founders in small firms or boards where everyone shares the same surname, particularly in family-run conglomerates in emerging markets.Anke notes that although she doesn’t always request formal board evaluations, she views them as a missed opportunity for many firms. Proper board assessments and clear investor communication allow companies to spotlight their governance strengths and strategic priorities.Bridging the Knowledge Gap Between Boards and InvestorsAnke frequently observes significant knowledge gaps in how boards interact with capital markets. “We always find that people are sometimes not aware of how certain things are done or how things are perceived.”Lack of familiarity with investor expectations can seriously handicap a company’s position. To mitigate this, Anke advocates for including individuals with capital markets expertise on the board. This experience ensures the board understands key market dynamics and investor sentiment.Fixing Investor Relations: Easier Than You ThinkInvestor relations, Anke believes, is an area where companies can quickly improve. “This is something you can, as a company, very easily fix.”Improvements don’t require massive budgets. What’s often lacking is not money but human resources and awareness. Clear communication, a well-maintained website, an accessible IR team, and informative roadshows are foundational but frequently overlooked.Anke also points out two critical missteps:1. Inconsistent messaging between equity and debt stakeholders—this discrepancy doesn’t go unnoticed.2. Combative attitudes from executives during investor meetings can irreparably harm trust.Beyond the Numbers: The Human ElementAnke acknowledges that while financial metrics are clear-cut, evaluating leadership is far more nuanced. “If I have an opportunity, I always want to meet management, but one also has to be realistic about whether you can assess whether they are good at running the company.”Good marketing can mask weak fundamentals, and vice versa. Successful investor relations require a balance: numbers must align with consistent messaging and credible leadership behaviour.Come Join The Better Boards Community We’d love to get to know you! If you’d like to become part of the Better Boards community, discover our unique approach, and explore ways to work with us or share your ideas on The Better Boards Podcast series, drop us a line at info@better-boards.com.

Send us a textIn recent years, transformation skills have become increasingly important at the board level, with culture and talent rising high on the agenda. Yet, there’s still a noticeable absence of HR professionals in the boardroom. Why?In this episode of the Better Boards Podcast Series, Dr. Sabine Dembkowski speaks with Devyani P. Vaishampayan, Remco Chair and NED at Norman Broadbent Plc and Supply Chain Coordination Limited, and Independent NED on the Audit Board of ForvisMazars. Devyani is a Fellow at Chapter Zero and a Board Mentor with Critical Eye. She recently exited her AI Innovation Hub, having spent seven years advising corporates on AI, leadership, and the future of work. Before that, she was a global FTSE 30 CHRO with a 30-year career leading complex, multi-billion-dollar organisations.“It’s still quite rare to find HR professionals on the board… There’s a perception that HR lacks commercial acumen.”Devyani argues that HR leaders can earn their place at the board table by showing strong business insight—understanding financials, customer impact, and strategic goals. This may involve gaining broader experience outside HR or pursuing entrepreneurial ventures to deepen their perspective.“Everyone’s talking about AI, but very few realise how fast the change is happening.”Boards have always dealt with change, but today’s pace, especially with AI and geopolitical shifts, is unprecedented. AI adds speed to transformation and presents both opportunity and risk. Boards must understand their potential while managing risks like bias, data privacy, and employee trust. Devyani warns against overregulation and urges boards to take a more informed, proactive approach.“Boards need to lead more in culture and talent—and be hands-on.”According to Devyani, high-performing boards do three things well:Engage specialists in culture and transformation to support the executive team.Stay connected by engaging directly with employees—some boards spend two days in open forums to better understand workforce sentiment.Lead by example, especially board chairs, who should champion values and culture, not just delegate to the executive team.“Boards need to act as mentors to the executive team.”While some executives prefer boards to be hands-off, Devyani believes informed boards should act as sounding boards. Chairs can match board members with executives for mentoring, creating deeper support systems without overwhelming either side. Cross-committee conversations and subcommittees can also foster this dynamic.Top 3 Takeaways for effective boards:HR leaders—like CFOs—interact closely with boards and should use that access to build trust and position themselves for future board roles.Broaden your skill set. Go beyond your core function to become more valuable and board-ready.Get hands-on with AI. Understand its real-world implications for making informed decisions as a board member.Subscribe to the Better Boards Podcast Series on Apple, Spotify, or Google to stay informed.Want to participate or learn more about Better Boards’ solutions? Contact us at info@better-boards.com.Come Join The Better Boards Community We’d love to get to know you! If you’d like to become part of the Better Boards community, discover our unique approach, and explore ways to work with us or share your ideas on The Better Boards Podcast series, drop us a line at info@better-boards.com.

Send us a textArtificial intelligence (AI) can revolutionise boardrooms in today's rapidly evolving business landscape. Still, this rapid change threatens to distance boards from the companies they serve if proper care is not taken in implementing both the technology and the governance around it.In this podcast, Dr. Sabine Dembkowski, Founder and Managing Partner of Better Boards, discusses how AI can revolutionise boardrooms with Moya Hayhurst, a Fellow of the Chartered Governance Institute with over 25 years of experience in corporate governance across multiple industries, including mining, financial services, and insurance. “If we go back to the beginning as to why boards were created, they're there to protect and drive the value of companies”Boards have a significant role to play in that discussion, but to lead the debate about future-proofing effectively, boards need to absorb and process a vast amount of information.  “The real value from AI and similar is about integrating into the ethos of the company and the core infrastructure, and whether we like it or not, whether executive boards, executive committees and such acknowledge it, the board is a key component of that”Moya is currently involved in a voluntary project with the Centre for AI in Board Effectiveness (CAIBE), which aims to get boards excited and engaged with AI as a tool for improving their effectiveness and the quality of their conversations. To Moya, in an ideal future state, board members and directors will be able to be more effective by having AI bring forward the data and information they need, when they need it, in easily digestible formats. “Some boards are further along than others"Moya realises this is a leap forward. It wasn't that long ago that boards were reticent to use board pack technology. They wanted their hard copies printed and couriered to wherever they were in the world, whereas now 90% of boards walk into a boardroom with an iPad. It’s an evolution in progress. “Through an interface like AI, you can bring the board back in alignment with the company”To Moya, what AI is surfacing is not that different skills are needed in the boardroom. The boardroom is already full of incredibly skilled people, but those people are struggling with the data coming at them, and thanks to the time it takes to prepare board papers, not all of that data is up to date. Backward-looking reporting is leading to missed opportunities.“AI is a toddler. They are excited, energetic, and bring such amazing potential, but they've got to have guardrails so that they grow up in the right way”Moya understands that boards have concerns about new technology tools and their security, as well as the protection of sensitive information. Fortunately, most organisations have a governance framework in place to strike a balance between responsibility and innovation. She thinks of AI as a toddler loaded with energy and potential but in desperate need of guidance and thoughtful training. The three top takeaways for effective boards from our conversation are:1.      Lean on governance professionals and IT professionals to help you investigate the technology and offer better intelligence for quicker decisions.2.     Don’t be hamstrung by perceived risk. ThinkCome Join The Better Boards Community We’d love to get to know you! If you’d like to become part of the Better Boards community, discover our unique approach, and explore ways to work with us or share your ideas on The Better Boards Podcast series, drop us a line at info@better-boards.com.

Send us a textOver the last decade, climate and sustainability have become more of a focus for boards and sub-committees. However, there is currently a lot of conflicting noise around this agenda. So, there is a lot for boards to digest around this topic, making it an opportune time to take stock of where we are and what boards should consider.In this podcast, Dr. Sabine Dembkowski, Founder and Managing Partner of Better Boards, discusses climate/energy transition with David Harris, who has worked on these topics for over 20 years. He leads sustainable finance strategic initiatives at LSEG (London Stock Exchange Group), having previously led sustainable finance for two of its divisions:  FTSE Russell in its index business, and its Data and Analytics division.“20 years ago, this was regarded as quite a niche area. Today, that picture is completely different. It's one of the top issues for institutional investors.”The data backs him up. In FTSE Russell’s annual survey of global pension funds, they ask if the funds are integrating sustainability issues into their investment strategies. Among the largest and most sophisticated funds, those with over 10 billion dollars in assets under management, 86 per cent do. “Of the different sustainability themes, climate change and energy transition rank in our asset owner survey as being the very top priority.”Data from the International Energy Agency shows in 2024, annual investment into the energy sector was $3 trillion,  $2 that in 2024, annual investment in the energy sector was $3 trillion,  $2 trillion in clean energy, and $1 trillion in fossil fuels. In contrast, around five years ago, they were roughly on par at $1 trillion each. So, David says we are well into a substantial shift in the global economy, and boards and investors need to understand that.“I think there has been some surprise.. from boards at the level of reporting requirements coming at them.”Shifts of this magnitude come with many reporting requirements – requirements that have many boards less than thrilled. Some of the exasperation is at the newness of the requirements, and some is frustration with the scope. David feels this is a legitimate concern, as many boards find that keeping up with reporting can detract from focusing on the most material and relevant issues of running the business. “What's really important here is… sustainability standards are increasingly being set in a way which aligns them with the way companies are used to reporting on financial information.”The International Financial Reporting Standards (IFRS) Foundation has set up the International Sustainability Standards Board, which may be familiar to many listeners. It aims to get global sustainability standards set up in a way that aligns with how companies are used to reporting on financial information and in a format that’s easier for the investor community to use. The three top takeaways for effective boards from our conversation are:1.      Don't get lost in all of the reporting regulations. Cut through that and focus on the material issues and what’s right for the business. 2.     Make sure you're engaging your investors, not only the sell-side analysts but also the institutional investors who sit behind them, i.e. the pension funds and sovereign Come Join The Better Boards Community We’d love to get to know you! If you’d like to become part of the Better Boards community, discover our unique approach, and explore ways to work with us or share your ideas on The Better Boards Podcast series, drop us a line at info@better-boards.com.

Send us a textEmployee representation is a specific requirement for German boards, but global boards can learn from Germany. More and more boards have an employee representative, mostly a director, who brings employees’ perspectives back to the board. In this podcast, Dr Sabine Dembkowski, founder and managing partner of Better Boards, discusses employee representation on the board with Gabriele Bornemann, who wants to set new standards for qualification supervisory boards with her company Management Alliance. Before that, Gabriele worked in industry and finance for over 25 years. She was responsible for investor relations, M&A, risk management, and strategy.“We do not ALL like this option to have equal representation”Gabriele outlines the concept of labour representation at the board level in Germany – a unique approach shaped by the country’s two-tier corporate governance system. Unlike the Anglo-Saxon one-tier system, where the board has direct engagement with employees, German supervisory boards are legally required to remain independent and cannot interact directly with employees. “Profitability of the company as a whole is at stake”Gabriele accepts that labour representation on the board is not without its challenges. A key example is Volkswagen, where employee representatives hold significant influence over management decisions, and their primary concern is job security and maintaining production sites in Germany – but business realities demand a shift toward new markets. If changes in sales and procurement make Germany less viable as a production hub, the company must adapt, even if it means relocating operations.  With strong employee representation, these strategic shifts can become contentious, with decisions to prioritise national job security over global competitiveness.“Codetermination also has also a very positive impact on the structure of a company”Gabriele explains that the origins of codetermination in Germany are deeply rooted in history. Emerging after World War II, it was designed to safeguard labour rights in an evolving and increasingly competitive market. While it has its challenges, she knows that the system also brings clear advantages, especially in ensuring greater oversight within corporate governance structures.“It's very important that we have a strong chairman of the supervisory board”Gabriele believes that co-determination presents both opportunities and challenges. The key to making it work lies in how the different parties collaborate, the composition of the supervisory board, the role of the supervisory board's composition, and the chair's role. She advises that a strong chair is essential to balance perspectives and ensure discussions remain productive rather than divisive.The three top takeaways from our conversation are:1.      Co-determination in Germany makes sense because supervisory boards have no direct access to employees, and it is important to integrate the employee perspective into their work.2.     The weakness of codetermination is the lack of internationality in international business models.3.     A very strong supervisory board chair is important to consider the common strengths of both shareholder and employee representatives.Come Join The Better Boards Community We’d love to get to know you! If you’d like to become part of the Better Boards community, discover our unique approach, and explore ways to work with us or share your ideas on The Better Boards Podcast series, drop us a line at info@better-boards.com.