The Better Boards Podcast Series

Send us a textIn recent years, transformation skills have become increasingly important at the board level, with culture and talent rising high on the agenda. Yet, there’s still a noticeable absence of HR professionals in the boardroom. Why?In this episode of the Better Boards Podcast Series, Dr. Sabine Dembkowski speaks with Devyani P. Vaishampayan, Remco Chair and NED at Norman Broadbent Plc and Supply Chain Coordination Limited, and Independent NED on the Audit Board of ForvisMazars. Devyani is a Fellow at Chapter Zero and a Board Mentor with Critical Eye. She recently exited her AI Innovation Hub, having spent seven years advising corporates on AI, leadership, and the future of work. Before that, she was a global FTSE 30 CHRO with a 30-year career leading complex, multi-billion-dollar organisations.“It’s still quite rare to find HR professionals on the board… There’s a perception that HR lacks commercial acumen.”Devyani argues that HR leaders can earn their place at the board table by showing strong business insight—understanding financials, customer impact, and strategic goals. This may involve gaining broader experience outside HR or pursuing entrepreneurial ventures to deepen their perspective.“Everyone’s talking about AI, but very few realise how fast the change is happening.”Boards have always dealt with change, but today’s pace, especially with AI and geopolitical shifts, is unprecedented. AI adds speed to transformation and presents both opportunity and risk. Boards must understand their potential while managing risks like bias, data privacy, and employee trust. Devyani warns against overregulation and urges boards to take a more informed, proactive approach.“Boards need to lead more in culture and talent—and be hands-on.”According to Devyani, high-performing boards do three things well:Engage specialists in culture and transformation to support the executive team.Stay connected by engaging directly with employees—some boards spend two days in open forums to better understand workforce sentiment.Lead by example, especially board chairs, who should champion values and culture, not just delegate to the executive team.“Boards need to act as mentors to the executive team.”While some executives prefer boards to be hands-off, Devyani believes informed boards should act as sounding boards. Chairs can match board members with executives for mentoring, creating deeper support systems without overwhelming either side. Cross-committee conversations and subcommittees can also foster this dynamic.Top 3 Takeaways for effective boards:HR leaders—like CFOs—interact closely with boards and should use that access to build trust and position themselves for future board roles.Broaden your skill set. Go beyond your core function to become more valuable and board-ready.Get hands-on with AI. Understand its real-world implications for making informed decisions as a board member.Subscribe to the Better Boards Podcast Series on Apple, Spotify, or Google to stay informed.Want to participate or learn more about Better Boards’ solutions? Contact us at info@better-boards.com.

Send us a textArtificial intelligence (AI) can revolutionise boardrooms in today's rapidly evolving business landscape. Still, this rapid change threatens to distance boards from the companies they serve if proper care is not taken in implementing both the technology and the governance around it.In this podcast, Dr. Sabine Dembkowski, Founder and Managing Partner of Better Boards, discusses how AI can revolutionise boardrooms with Moya Hayhurst, a Fellow of the Chartered Governance Institute with over 25 years of experience in corporate governance across multiple industries, including mining, financial services, and insurance. “If we go back to the beginning as to why boards were created, they're there to protect and drive the value of companies”Boards have a significant role to play in that discussion, but to lead the debate about future-proofing effectively, boards need to absorb and process a vast amount of information.  “The real value from AI and similar is about integrating into the ethos of the company and the core infrastructure, and whether we like it or not, whether executive boards, executive committees and such acknowledge it, the board is a key component of that”Moya is currently involved in a voluntary project with the Centre for AI in Board Effectiveness (CAIBE), which aims to get boards excited and engaged with AI as a tool for improving their effectiveness and the quality of their conversations. To Moya, in an ideal future state, board members and directors will be able to be more effective by having AI bring forward the data and information they need, when they need it, in easily digestible formats. “Some boards are further along than others"Moya realises this is a leap forward. It wasn't that long ago that boards were reticent to use board pack technology. They wanted their hard copies printed and couriered to wherever they were in the world, whereas now 90% of boards walk into a boardroom with an iPad. It’s an evolution in progress. “Through an interface like AI, you can bring the board back in alignment with the company”To Moya, what AI is surfacing is not that different skills are needed in the boardroom. The boardroom is already full of incredibly skilled people, but those people are struggling with the data coming at them, and thanks to the time it takes to prepare board papers, not all of that data is up to date. Backward-looking reporting is leading to missed opportunities.“AI is a toddler. They are excited, energetic, and bring such amazing potential, but they've got to have guardrails so that they grow up in the right way”Moya understands that boards have concerns about new technology tools and their security, as well as the protection of sensitive information. Fortunately, most organisations have a governance framework in place to strike a balance between responsibility and innovation. She thinks of AI as a toddler loaded with energy and potential but in desperate need of guidance and thoughtful training. The three top takeaways for effective boards from our conversation are:1.      Lean on governance professionals and IT professionals to help you investigate the technology and offer better intelligence for quicker decisions.2.     Don’t be hamstrung by perceived risk. Think through it carefully, and then quantify and manage the risk so that you can empower and engage your directors to really be at the forefront of your industry.3.    You must have a clear plan that understands the risk and governance frameworks of your organisation and its sensitive data, and that ensures your guardrails are in place. 

Send us a textOver the last decade, climate and sustainability have become more of a focus for boards and sub-committees. However, there is currently a lot of conflicting noise around this agenda. So, there is a lot for boards to digest around this topic, making it an opportune time to take stock of where we are and what boards should consider.In this podcast, Dr. Sabine Dembkowski, Founder and Managing Partner of Better Boards, discusses climate/energy transition with David Harris, who has worked on these topics for over 20 years. He leads sustainable finance strategic initiatives at LSEG (London Stock Exchange Group), having previously led sustainable finance for two of its divisions:  FTSE Russell in its index business, and its Data and Analytics division.“20 years ago, this was regarded as quite a niche area. Today, that picture is completely different. It's one of the top issues for institutional investors.”The data backs him up. In FTSE Russell’s annual survey of global pension funds, they ask if the funds are integrating sustainability issues into their investment strategies. Among the largest and most sophisticated funds, those with over 10 billion dollars in assets under management, 86 per cent do. “Of the different sustainability themes, climate change and energy transition rank in our asset owner survey as being the very top priority.”Data from the International Energy Agency shows in 2024, annual investment into the energy sector was $3 trillion,  $2 that in 2024, annual investment in the energy sector was $3 trillion,  $2 trillion in clean energy, and $1 trillion in fossil fuels. In contrast, around five years ago, they were roughly on par at $1 trillion each. So, David says we are well into a substantial shift in the global economy, and boards and investors need to understand that.“I think there has been some surprise.. from boards at the level of reporting requirements coming at them.”Shifts of this magnitude come with many reporting requirements – requirements that have many boards less than thrilled. Some of the exasperation is at the newness of the requirements, and some is frustration with the scope. David feels this is a legitimate concern, as many boards find that keeping up with reporting can detract from focusing on the most material and relevant issues of running the business. “What's really important here is… sustainability standards are increasingly being set in a way which aligns them with the way companies are used to reporting on financial information.”The International Financial Reporting Standards (IFRS) Foundation has set up the International Sustainability Standards Board, which may be familiar to many listeners. It aims to get global sustainability standards set up in a way that aligns with how companies are used to reporting on financial information and in a format that’s easier for the investor community to use. The three top takeaways for effective boards from our conversation are:1.      Don't get lost in all of the reporting regulations. Cut through that and focus on the material issues and what’s right for the business. 2.     Make sure you're engaging your investors, not only the sell-side analysts but also the institutional investors who sit behind them, i.e. the pension funds and sovereign wealth funds, as well as the asset managers and understand their priorities.3.     Build your expertise and lean on the resources available through Chapter Zero and similar networks.  

Send us a textEmployee representation is a specific requirement for German boards, but global boards can learn from Germany. More and more boards have an employee representative, mostly a director, who brings employees’ perspectives back to the board. In this podcast, Dr Sabine Dembkowski, founder and managing partner of Better Boards, discusses employee representation on the board with Gabriele Bornemann, who wants to set new standards for qualification supervisory boards with her company Management Alliance. Before that, Gabriele worked in industry and finance for over 25 years. She was responsible for investor relations, M&A, risk management, and strategy.“We do not ALL like this option to have equal representation”Gabriele outlines the concept of labour representation at the board level in Germany – a unique approach shaped by the country’s two-tier corporate governance system. Unlike the Anglo-Saxon one-tier system, where the board has direct engagement with employees, German supervisory boards are legally required to remain independent and cannot interact directly with employees. “Profitability of the company as a whole is at stake”Gabriele accepts that labour representation on the board is not without its challenges. A key example is Volkswagen, where employee representatives hold significant influence over management decisions, and their primary concern is job security and maintaining production sites in Germany – but business realities demand a shift toward new markets. If changes in sales and procurement make Germany less viable as a production hub, the company must adapt, even if it means relocating operations.  With strong employee representation, these strategic shifts can become contentious, with decisions to prioritise national job security over global competitiveness.“Codetermination also has also a very positive impact on the structure of a company”Gabriele explains that the origins of codetermination in Germany are deeply rooted in history. Emerging after World War II, it was designed to safeguard labour rights in an evolving and increasingly competitive market. While it has its challenges, she knows that the system also brings clear advantages, especially in ensuring greater oversight within corporate governance structures.“It's very important that we have a strong chairman of the supervisory board”Gabriele believes that co-determination presents both opportunities and challenges. The key to making it work lies in how the different parties collaborate, the composition of the supervisory board, the role of the supervisory board's composition, and the chair's role. She advises that a strong chair is essential to balance perspectives and ensure discussions remain productive rather than divisive.The three top takeaways from our conversation are:1.      Co-determination in Germany makes sense because supervisory boards have no direct access to employees, and it is important to integrate the employee perspective into their work.2.     The weakness of codetermination is the lack of internationality in international business models.3.     A very strong supervisory board chair is important to consider the common strengths of both shareholder and employee representatives.

Send us a textThe boardroom tango is where strategy meets execution, highlighting the dynamic dance between the board and executives in steering an organisation. But what does an executive have to do in order to really get the most out of non-executives?  How does this dance between the two work? How can it be influenced and improved?In this podcast, Dr Sabine Dembkowski, Founder and Managing Partner of Better Boards, discusses the boardroom tango with Carol Ouko-Misiko, who is Group Sustainability and Risk Executive for Old Mutual Plc East Africa, she oversees 11 business units in the financial services sector, domiciled in 4 countries in East Africa.   “If I had to choose, I'd rather be where the magic is happening”Carol starts by explaining that if she had to choose between executive and board member roles, she would always prefer the driver’s seat as an executive. Executives have the opportunity to take strategy and turn it into tangible outcomes, leading teams, navigating uncertainty, and shaping the future, and she believes that’s where the real impact happens.Reflecting on her early days on the board, one challenge stands out—curating information. Distilling complex information into clear, actionable insights takes effort and discipline; she initially struggled with this as an executive. “It's that delicate balance between a nose-in, hands-out approach”The relationship between the board and management is dynamic. The board actively participates in governance, approves strategy, and maintains a firm grip on its fiduciary responsibilities. This is often characterised as a "nose in, hands out" approach, with board members highly engaged in significant decisions, risk evaluation, and executive performance but must also avoid micromanaging daily operations. Their role is to govern, not to manage, placing trust in executives to execute strategy effectively.  “Do we have the meeting before the meeting? I think it's necessary, but it can't replace opportunities for us to face issues without the bias”For Carol, the meeting before the meeting is something she loves and hates - they feel counterintuitive. Yet, she has come to recognise their value because they provide an opportunity to break the ice, easing difficult conversations before they take place in a formal setting.  These informal discussions help build rapport, align perspectives, and create consensus, especially when sensitive topics are on the agenda. However, Carol remains cautious about their potential downsides because pre-meetings can undermine transparency, bypass formal governance protocols, and discourage open, rigorous debate if misused. If board members become too reliant on informal discussions, there is a risk that critical issues will not receive the full scrutiny they require. “You need to have a bit of thick skin and a sharp focus”Resilience and focus are essential for an executive to succeed in the boardroomFor an executive to succeed in the boardroom, resilience and focus are essential. Carol believes that executives must develop a thick skin and a sharp focus, but beyond that, they also need the ability to frame a compelling narrative. Rallying people around a vision or strategy is not just about presenting facts; it’s about storytelling. As non-executive board members are not involved in day-to-day operations, executives must articulate a clear, urgent case for action. A well-crafted narrative drives meaningful engagement and momentum.  “The most valuable input that a non-exec has done has been to engage” Carol recalls reading an article outlining the roles a non-executive board member can play. In her experience, the most valuable non-executi

Send us a textThis episode highlights decision-making errors affecting high-stakes boards. Using concepts like bias, ‘deaf spots,’ and ‘tone-deaf leadership,’ it outlines misjudgment traps as warning signs and solutions to mental misinformation. It explores human misjudgment in boards, from ego to identity and false narratives.Dr. Sabine Dembkowski, Founder of Better Boards, discusses navigating misjudgment with Nuala Walsh, non-executive director, chair, and CEO of MindEquity. Nuala’s roles include Chair of Innocence Project London, iNED at British & Irish Lions, President of Harvard Club Ireland, Deputy Chair of The FA Inclusion Advisory Board, and Vice-Chair at UN Women (UK)."Even the smartest boards risk tuning out what matters"Nuala stresses context as a critical factor in board decisions. Experience, background, and environment shape perspectives, but today’s noisy world—data overload, disinformation, and constant distractions—creates a "toxic mix" for judgment. Even intelligent boards risk missing crucial data, ignoring key voices, and rushing into misjudgment."We hear less; we misjudge more"Nuala highlights ‘deaf spots’—the failure to recognise how environments influence behaviour. While reputation depends on sound decisions, boardroom pressures increase risk. Boards may tune out critical signals, focusing instead on what is convenient or comfortable."To get it right, understand why people get it wrong"Addressing echo chambers and tone-deaf decision-making begins with recognizing the problem. Overconfidence blinds boards to vulnerabilities, leading them to assume their judgments are sound, even against contradictory evidence."Groupthink is a warning sign of misjudgment"Boardroom culture matters. While boards discuss company culture, they often overlook their own biases. Consensus without challenge signals a risk of misjudgment."The peacock cares about who's right, not what's right"Ego-driven decisions are a major pitfall. Overconfidence fosters a false sense of certainty, pushing boards toward rushed decisions influenced by distractions, time pressures, and wishful thinking. Identity, emotion, and risk appetite compound these biases, making it vital to question both external narratives and internal assumptions."Check your intuition"Nuala advises boards to test their intuition. While gut instincts are useful, validating assumptions improves decision accuracy by 10% to 40%. Boards should pause, fact-check, and challenge their reasoning rather than rely solely on intuition.Key Takeaways for Effective Boards:Decisions matter more than you think.No one is immune to misjudgment—evaluate your board's mindset regularly.Not everything you hear is valuable, and not everything valuable is heard—listen differently and discern wisely.

Send us a textHave you ever wondered how to sell a bold idea in the boardroom? Not just an idea different from what your organisation usually tends to do, but a really bold one that breaks ground in your industry? What does it take? What do you need?In this podcast, Dr Sabine Dembkowski, Founder and Managing Partner of Better Boards, discusses selling bold ideas in the boardroom with Dr Andy Palmer CMG, former COO at Nissan and President & Group CEO of Aston Martin.  Known as “the Godfather of EVs."  Today, he is a turnaround specialist stepping in as Interim CEO / Executive Chair at Optare/Switch Ltd, PodPoint plc and Brill Power Ltd.  “More than anything else, if you want to get on, then you got to work hard.”Andy credits hard work as the key to his success, acknowledging the sacrifices required. While his family enjoyed the benefits of his career, it came at a cost to time spent with them. Talent and education matter, but perseverance drives leadership.“What do I need to understand that would allow me to solve that problem?”Andy’s interdisciplinary experiences and deep industry exposure contributed to his achievements. His work on the Nissan LEAF taught him the importance of the "three Cs" in battery technology: chemistry, control, and cooling, shaping his focus on zero-emission solutions.“When the whole company is essentially against you, how important air cover is!”Selling the LEAF to Nissan’s board was tough—many favoured hybrids. Andy proposed skipping hybrids for fully electric vehicles. CEO Carlos Ghosn’s support was pivotal, providing Andy the "air cover" to push his bold vision.“Being a CEO should be about leadership, but there's so much about corporate governance that sort of forces you to be safe.”Andy reflects on the cautious nature of modern corporate governance, which can stifle innovation. He calls on non-executive directors to back CEOs willing to take calculated risks and pursue groundbreaking ideas.“I've always been very happy to be the lowest IQ in the room.”For bold leadership, Andy values diverse, multidisciplinary teams, effective communication, and empathy. He believes leaders must inspire confidence, even among sceptics, to gain support for their vision.The three top takeaways from our conversation for effective boards are:1.    Find something you love and can be passionate about in your career. 2.   Education is more than just studying a particular subject - academia is about personal growth. So you've got to know a particular discipline well and build your skill sets in other areas, like finance and communication. 3.   Ultimately, we all work with people, and your ability to build empathy and sell something rather than tell something is important.

Send us a textEvery year, the world's preeminent leadership advisory firm, Egon Zehnder, surveys CEOs to identify issues and challenges they face and how they deal with them. In this podcast, we highlight key findings and discuss the implications for CEOs and Nomination Committees challenged to align on the search criteria for CEOsIn this podcast, Dr Sabine Dembkowski, Founder and Managing Partner of Better Boards, discusses how to lead through complexity with Dr Nadine Rinck, a partner in Egon Zehnder's Munich office. She heads Egon Zehnder’s infrastructure sector in EMEA and focuses on board advisory and CEO succession across sectors. “95% of the CEOs expect groundbreaking systemic changes in the next decade”Nadine shares that 95% of CEOs anticipated groundbreaking systemic changes in the next decade.   The study also identified the top five critical challenges for CEOs: talent acquisition and development, AI adoption and impact, market disruptions, geopolitical instability and climate change/ecological impact.  Nadine highlights that these challenges are not isolated, and their interconnected nature makes them even more difficult to navigate.  “The world is currently moving from complicated to complex”Nadine explains that complexity introduces challenges for which no clear solution exists, no matter how much effort or money is invested. The world is shifting from being merely complicated to truly complex. This shift brings heightened uncertainty and often fear among teams and stakeholders.  “What can I do to make my CEO become better and support him or her in navigating this complexity?”Nadine emphasises that navigating complexity does not mean CEOs must solve every problem themselves or adopt a hierarchical approach.  Instead, CEOs are turning to specific sources for advice and support when tackling complex challenges.  However, a surprising gap exists in how often CEOs engage independent board members or chairs for guidance.  Only 17% consult their independent board members and just 13% turn to their chairs for advice.  “Leaders will need to develop adaptive abilities”Nadine acknowledges that tackling today’s challenges requires a fundamental shift - a complete update of the “operating system” of leadership.  For future CEOs, this means transforming their leadership identity and focusing on emotional intelligence and personal growth.  She outlines three meta-competencies that form the foundation for adaptive leadership. The first is self-awareness, which requires the ability to self-reflect and be brutally honest with oneself.  The second meta-competency is relational capability, which includes building trust, forming networks, and genuinely connecting with others.  The third meta-competency she describes is adaptability, which requires leaders to let go of outdated beliefs and unlearn no longer beneficial behaviours or strategies.  “Take people out of their comfort zones and see them in different settings and environments”Nadine emphasises that while a candidate’s CV and experience remain critical, boards (and particularly nomination committees) must go beyond traditional criteria to understand behaviours and personalities for internal talent and CEO succession pipelines, building relationships with potential candidates much earlier in their careers, long before the formal selection process begins.  The three top takeaways for effective boards from our conversation are the three meta-competencies to help CEOs navigate complexities:1.      Self-awareness2.     Relational capabilities3.     Adaptability.

Send us a textThere are many different types of crises, and how boards deal with them, so it is prudent to be aware of typical mistakes, what works, and what boards can do to deal well with these situations.   Are there any ‘golden rules’ that can serve as a starting point to prepare a board and ensure effectiveness and performance in a crisis?In this podcast, Dr Sabine Dembkowski, Founder and Managing Partner of Better Boards, discusses crisis and the board with Barbara Lambert, a professional Board Member who chairs or is a member of the Audit, Risk and Nomination Committees.  Her current and past mandates include Banque Pictet & Cie SA, Deutsche Börse AG, Implenia AG, Merck KgaA, Synlab AG and UBS Switzerland.  Barbara spent 20 years at Arthur Andersen/Ernst & Young as a senior partner and Head of the Audit practice for banks and insurance.  In 2008, she started as Head of Internal Audit at Pictet Group in Geneva and became a member of the Management Board as Group Chief Risk Officer. “A crisis coming from external events has more often a greater speed … and internal crises are more likely to be hidden and evolve gradually”Barbara reflects on her extensive experience managing crises over four decades, having identified clear patterns that emerge in such situations.  “I wish it was really a once-in-a-lifetime experience”Barbara describes one of the most critical mistakes she has witnessed boards make during a crisis - underestimating the situation.  Overconfidence often leads to a dangerous mindset of "this cannot happen to us," resulting in a failure to engage in proper scenario planning or not considering worst-case scenarios.  What starts as a manageable issue can quickly snowball into an uncontrollable avalanche. Barbara cites the collapse of Arthur Andersen, her former employer, where what began as a crisis ultimately ended with the company's demise.  “It starts before the crisis, so the board should know where the company is vulnerable”Drawing on nearly 40 years of experience in crisis management, Barbara outlines the key practices she has seen boards adopt to navigate crises effectively.  Success begins long before a crisis occurs, with boards identifying vulnerabilities and ensuring regular, comprehensive updates on the company’s risk profile.  She highlights the value of an early warning system. According to Barbara, a well-prepared, united board can make the difference between crisis recovery and failure.  “I think that there's no miracle, but there's just a solution”Barbara acknowledges that preparing for crises amidst packed agendas is challenging but insists that the solution lies in prioritising time.  Today’s board roles demand significant commitment—in reading documents and engaging deeply with strategic discussions, management, and fellow board members.  She highlights how the role of a board member has evolved into a full-time commitment. The three top takeaways from our conversation are:1.      Crisis management starts before the crisis, so as a board member, you must ensure that the company is prepared with scenarios, contingency plans and a robust risk management framework. 2.     Do not overestimate your availability before you accept a new or additional mandate. Honestly, decide if you really have the time to do it. 3.     Crises and challenges are here to stay because of the current economic, technological and geopolitical environment. As a board member, you need to show that you can be the solid rock to whom executive management can turn.

Send us a textThe ESG narrative has become familiar but does not yet confront the challenges of a world where interest in sustainability is waning in some regions, political and economic divides are widening, and technology is reshaping the rules of the game.  How can boards maintain momentum on climate and social issues when governments are focused on regulation and public interest is fractured?  In this podcast, Dr Sabine Dembkowski, Founder and Managing Partner of Better Boards, discusses whether corporate governance can survive sustainability with Frederik Otto, Director of Advisory and Head of Europe at global consulting and standards firm AccountAbility. Previously, he founded and led The Sustainability Board, a globally recognised think tank for sustainable leadership and corporate governance. “The purpose of the company is not just to provide profits to shareholders, but to serve all of their stakeholders.”Frederik starts by explaining that sustainability is intricately tied to governance through stakeholder management and engagement.  He recalls how the topic gained traction from 2017 to 2019, with influential figures such as Larry Fink of BlackRock and the US Business Roundtable emphasising that a company’s purpose extends beyond delivering profits to shareholders. That narrative led to a push for better oversight of sustainability issues.  “The last five years have been quite the journey for sustainability.”Frederik acknowledges that there is a sense of ideological fatigue around terms such as ESG and sustainability, and these words may even have become divisive, but the underlying issues remain critical.  He stresses that a board’s fiduciary duty includes ensuring sustainability matters are given due consideration.“We were seeing all these shiny sustainability reports and board disclosures… …that were very explicit in how the corporation is providing value to all sorts of stakeholders.”Frederik explains how the drivers of sustainability have shifted.  While employee activism and stakeholder pressure were dominant five years ago, economic challenges such as inflation and layoffs have reduced their influence.  Particularly in Europe, regulators have stepped in to fill this gap with legislation.  Frederik highlights three key sustainability trends emerging for the future:Nature and Biodiversity - Risks such as biodiversity loss are gaining attention, along with opportunities like nature-based solutions.Artificial Intelligence - AI impacts businesses through changes to business models, operational challenges like cybersecurity, and ethical considerations.Geopolitics and Geo-economics - Global hostilities, trade restrictions, and national security concerns related to climate change are influencing board agendas.“Do more scenario planning, do it more provocatively, and look as far as possible.”Frederik stresses that boards must prioritise long-term sustainability goals alongside immediate operational challenges.  He identifies three core responsibilities for boards: routine governance, crisis management, and future planning.  He emphasises that robust scenario planning is vital for proactive governance, urging boards to explore even unlikely but plausible future scenarios. The three top takeaways for effective boards from our conversation are:1.      Align the strategic, strategic intent between organisation management and the board, removing terminology2.     Remove the words sustainability and ESG and consider these as global issues, systemic risks, and opportunities.3.     Try to forecast better and spend more time on talking and thinking about the future.