The Argument

Why is far-right populism on the rise? Political scientist Gabriele Gratton has a controversial theory: For decades, technocrats moved policy decisions — on austerity, climate, and more – away from the realm of mass politics and toward independent authorities, courts, and experts. The result? A populist backlash fueled by the desire to reassert control over policy.In Gratton's telling, the populist backlash isn't irrational; it's a democratic response to elite failure. But his prescription isn't to abandon liberalism. This conversation explores how we got here and whether liberal democracy can course-correct before it's too late.The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Jerusalem Demsas brings together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at podcast@theargumentmag.com.For a full-length, ad-free version of our podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket CastsThe Argument podcast with Jerusalem Demsas is available wherever you get podcasts. New shows drop every Monday. If you like the show, leave a comment and ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website.The Argument's production team includes Ranjani Chakraborty, Mylan Cannon, Isabella Pereira, Angela Tracy, Eli Richman, and Kate Crawford with music by Breakmaster Cylinder. If you want to hear more of The Argument, you can become a subscriber at The ArgumentMag.com.

Kelsey Piper, a staff writer focused on education, dives into America's literacy challenges, emphasizing Mississippi's successful reading reforms. She explains the detrimental shift from phonics to guessing-based reading strategies and highlights how Mississippi's phonics-heavy approach drastically improved student outcomes. Kelsey also discusses the politics surrounding these reforms and the resistance other states face in adopting similar methods. Their conversation touches on broader education issues, accountability, and the need for clear standards to elevate literacy and learning.

Economist Sahil Chinoy, known for his extensive research on economic beliefs and zero-sum thinking, joins host Jerusalem Demsas to explore why many feel threatened by immigration. They dive into Chinoy's large study linking family histories, economic attitudes, and the rise of zero-sum perspectives among younger Americans. The discussion touches on how economic stagnation fuels a sense of scarcity and why certain policy topics trigger zero-sum instincts. They also examine the potential for shifting these entrenched beliefs through persuasion and policy change.

Rising income inequality hurts democracy, health, happiness, and basically anything you can think of … right? Sociologist Lane Kenworthy doesn't think so. In his new book Is Inequality The Problem? Kenworthy argued that inequality is overrated as “the” cause of our problems — and discussed why the data pushes him toward a different set of priorities. Host Jerusalem Demsas is skeptical. Together, they dig into happiness, health, and populism, and they discuss why expanding the social welfare state might matter more than obsessing over the 1%.The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Jerusalem Demsas brings together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at podcast@theargumentmag.com.For a full-length, ad-free version of our podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket CastsThe Argument podcast with Jerusalem Demsas is available wherever you get podcasts. New shows drop every Monday. If you like the show, leave a comment and ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website.The Argument's production team includes Ranjani Chakraborty, Mylan Cannon, Isabella Pereira, Angela Tracy, Eli Richman, and Kate Crawford with music by Breakmaster Cylinder. If you want to hear more of The Argument, you can become a subscriber at The ArgumentMag.com.

Robinson Meyer, founding editor of Heatmap News and a former Atlantic climate reporter, dives into the complicated world of U.S. climate politics. He discusses the Inflation Reduction Act and its unexpected shortcomings, particularly how it failed to win back young voters. Meyer explores the challenges of biodiversity loss, reveals why many clean energy projects favor red states, and debates the necessity of a right-wing climate constituency. His insights illuminate the complex landscape of climate advocacy and the political hurdles that lie ahead.

Silicon Valley’s sharp right turn didn’t come out of nowhere. Former tech worker and current tech writer Jasmine Sun walks us through how a once-solidly liberal sector became MAGA-curious. We talk about:The rise of “effective accelerationism” (E/acc)Why parts of the tech elite feel betrayed by the Biden administrationHow backlash to regulation, internal employee revolts, crypto crackdowns, and AI safety debates pushed founders toward Trumpworld Sun maps the ideological split between the engineers who see themselves as the last “live players” in American society and the regulators who believe they’re the only ones standing between the public and untested technology.This episode is also about the culture of progress. Host Jerusalem Demsas and Sun, who both attended Progress Conference in October, share their observations about the emerging populist backlash to AI, the failure of the DOGE experiment, Chinese AI and manufacturing strategies, and the widening value gap between tech elites and the rest of the country. The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Jerusalem Demsas brings together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at jerusalem@theargumentmag.com.For a full-length, ad-free version of our podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel here. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket CastsThe Argument podcast with Jerusalem Demsas is available wherever you get podcasts. New shows drop every Monday. If you like the show, leave a comment and ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website at https://www.theargumentmag.com/s/the-argument-podcastThe Argument's production team includes Ranjani Chakraborty, Mylan Cannon, Isabella Pereira, Angela Tracy, Eli Richman, and Kate Crawford with music by Breakmaster Cylinder. If you want to hear more of The Argument, you can become a subscriber at The ArgumentMag.com.

Bill McKibben, a pioneering climate writer and activist, joins to discuss the urgent transition from fossil fuels to clean energy. He argues that solar, wind, and batteries are now the cheapest energy sources, emphasizing the importance of reframing climate messaging to focus on affordability. McKibben highlights global successes like balcony solar in Europe and the swift adoption of renewables in Texas. The conversation also tackles the challenges posed by NIMBYism, the role of carbon capture, and the need for continued subsidies to accelerate the clean energy transition.

Why is free speech losing ground? From crackdowns on immigrants, protesters, and law firms to campus speech codes, social-media “jawboning,” and government pressure – we're witnessing the erosion of the free speech culture that once defined American democracy.Greg Lukianoff is the president of the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression (FIRE), a free speech organization. In this episode, he and Jerusalem discuss why defending free speech always means defending the unpopular, how bureaucratic cowardice and partisan outrage feed each other, and what a real revival of liberal tolerance would look like. The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Jerusalem Demsas brings together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at jerusalem@theargumentmag.com.For a full-length, ad-free version of our podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel here. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket CastsThe Argument podcast with Jerusalem Demsas is available wherever you get podcasts. New shows drop every Monday. If you like the show, leave a comment and ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website at https://www.theargumentmag.com/s/the-argument-podcastThe Argument's production team includes Ranjani Chakraborty, Mylan Cannon, Isabella Pereira, Angela Tracy, Eli Richman, and Kate Crawford with music by Breakmaster Cylinder. If you want to hear more of The Argument, you can become a subscriber at The ArgumentMag.com.

Economics writer Joey Politano joins host Jerusalem Demsas to explain the great tariff comeback story. From bananas and coffee to washing machines and Christmas ornaments, Trump’s new trade war is making life more expensive – but why? They unpack how tariffs actually work, why Trump’s obsession with them never went away, and what it says about America’s growing economic nationalism. Plus: why are politicians obsessed with reviving a 1950s manufacturing economy and can tariffs even make that happen?The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Jerusalem Demsas will bring together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at jerusalem@theargumentmag.com.For a full-length, ad-free version of our podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel here. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket CastsThe Argument podcast with Jerusalem Demsas is available wherever you get podcasts. New shows drop every Monday. If you like the show, leave a comment and ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website at https://www.theargumentmag.com/s/the-argument-podcastThe Argument's production team includes Ranjani Chakraborty, Mylan Cannon, Isabella Pereira, Angela Tracy, Eli Richman, and Kate Crawford with music by Breakmaster Cylinder. If you want to hear more of The Argument, you can become a subscriber at The ArgumentMag.com.

Was everything we did during COVID-19 a mistake — or are critics rewriting history? In this episode, Jerusalem Demsas talked with The Atlantic's Roge Karma about his reporting on “COVID revisionism,” which is gaining popularity across the political spectrum. The belief posits that not only were lockdowns, masking, and other public-health measures ineffective, but officials knew they wouldn’t work. Together, they traced how early uncertainty, mixed messaging, and political polarization created today’s crisis of trust in public health. They debated what the data actually showed about nonpharmaceutical interventions, how institutions weighed (or ignored) trade-offs, and what lessons we should carry into the next pandemic. From Sweden to school closures, from Francis Collins to the Great Barrington Declaration, this conversation asks what it means to learn from catastrophe without rewriting it.The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Jerusalem Demsas will bring together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at jerusalem@theargumentmag.com.For a full-length, ad-free version of our podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel here. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket CastsThe Argument podcast with Jerusalem Demsas is available wherever you get podcasts. New shows drop every Monday. If you like the show, leave a comment and ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website at https://www.theargumentmag.com/s/the-argument-podcastThe Argument's production team includes Ranjani Chakraborty, Mylan Cannon, Isabella Pereira, Angela Tracy, Eli Richman, and Kate Crawford with music by Breakmaster Cylinder. If you want to hear more of The Argument, you can become a subscriber at The ArgumentMag.com.