The Russell Brunson Show

The strategic thinking between the $2 million earner and the $40 million earner. Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ---Transcript--- Hey, what's up everybody? This is Russell Brunson. Welcome to Marketing Secrets Podcast. It's a Saturday. I just got done working out. While I was working out, I was thinking about something that's crazy. I have two friends that have a very similar product. One of them is very proud because I think they made $2 million from this product, which is amazing. Two Comma Club winner, yes, let's do it. The other friend did $40 million this year, and right now we are trying to acquire his company. And what is the difference? That's what I want to talk about here on today's episode. All right, so I set this up in the intro, but it's crazy. Two people have the exact same product. One, $2 million in sales, which is very amazing. One did $40 million in sales. So what is the difference? Both the products are the same. I'm not going to give you guys too much detail because, come on, you're my funnel hackers. You could go and try to find him and search him out. Look at the funnel, look at all the things. So I don't want to give you the answer, but I do want to give you the question that's hopefully going to get the wheels in your head spinning. What's the difference sometimes between a product that is $2 million and a product that's $4 million? Both are good, but if you're going to be doing the work anyway, you might as well have the one that does $40 million. Did I say four? I meant 40, $40 million. And so it's interesting because if you saw both the pages, both the funnels, both things, you'd be like, "Oh yeah, it's the same product. They're probably doing similar things." In fact, my friend, whose product did $2 million, has been doing this game longer than I have. He understands the business and he understands everything. It's not like he's a rookie mistake. It was just a little different strategy. That's it. The strategy he executed the product on was different. And what's crazy is that the $2 million friend does not know that my $40 million friend is thinking $40 million for the same product. They probably think that they're on par, they're doing similar. But it's crazy, and all it was, was a different strategy. And so that's why, if you think about it, I spend so much time trying to get you guys thinking differently. Not so much, here's the answer, because then it's like, here's the tactic. Go copy it. And I could do that. I could show you guys the funnel that did $40 million. And it's cool and you'd say, "Here's the tactics." Then you'd be like, "Oh, I don't know how to make that work for myself." I remember at one time, this is pre-ClickFunnels, I had a chance to interview my first mentor. His name is Mark Joyner. And in the interview, I was asking some questions and I asked him, I was like, "What advice would you give someone like me?" And this is, again, before ClickFunnels. He said, "The biggest thing is right now, you are very good at the tactics. You're very good at, here's the thing, I'm going to do the thing, and you kind of do it." He said, "What you're not as good at yet is you're not as good at understanding the overarching strategy." And he's like, "The difference between where you are now and where you want to be is you have to become more strategic of a thinker," however he said that. I think he used a big word that I can't remember, but conceptually I understand it. And at first, for a long time, I didn't understand. What does he mean by that? I don't get it. I'm confused. But if I look at these two businesses I'm talking about right now, one of them is very tactical. Boom, did the thing, great video, great sales copy, upsell, downsell, the whole flow is in place. The other person, same things, but his strategy was a little bit different. The way he sold this product was different. And it wasn't a big shift. It wasn't a big change. It was just thinking strategically differently. And so that's what I want to help you guys with today. I talk obviously inside of our community about funnel hacking and looking at things and modeling. But sometimes it's more than that. Sometimes it's more than just looking at someone who's doing it and modeling the process. It's looking at what a lot of people are doing, a lot of people in different industries. One of the mentors I learned from initially a lot is a guy named Jay Abraham. Some of you have heard of Jay. And what he was really, really good at was he was really good at not just looking at his industry and saying, "I'm selling insurance. How are other people selling insurance doing it?" He'd say, "I'm selling insurance. How are people who are building houses doing this? How are people who are dentists doing this?" And he would look at different industries. I remember when I was first learning from him about the same time that Mark Joyner asked me my tactic versus strategy question. I was listening to a lot of Jay Abraham's stuff at the time and I noticed that he'd be like, "Hey, I had a client that was in this industry over here and I didn't know how to help him, but I saw a guy in this other industry doing this, and so I brought that over and modeled it and boom, we blew up the company." And I think, for me, a lot of that started happening. In fact, it's one of the reasons why I feel like I'm a good coach nowadays, because so many people in my market in how to start an online business market, they're really good at starting businesses in the how to make money on the internet market, so that's what they teach. Whereas my passion and my focus for the last decade has been, how do all businesses use this stuff? I respect every business is different. There's tweaks and there's changes, but I look at so many of them. Because of that, because I have a chance to look at businesses all over the place, a lot of times they're applying planning strategies and I'm just like, "Here's what everyone's doing. Here's what's working." It's like, okay, nobody's seeing this, but in this market over here, somebody is doing that thing. Here's the tweak, here's the change, here's the idea. So my friend who has the $40 million business versus my friend with the $2 million business, it was just a strategy change. It was just my friend doing $2 million was doing what everybody else was doing and my friend doing 40 million just saw a different way. He's like, "Hey, everyone else is pricing this way. Everyone else is structuring their funnel this way. What if I made this little tiny tweak? What if I made this little shift?" And it's just a positioning shift. Literally, it's just shifting the positioning in the pricing strategy just a little bit. And from the same amount of effort now, one of them, $2 million, one of them, $40 million. And so I want you to thinking about that, looking, keeping your eyes open. This is the time to start developing your thinking muscles as you're looking at other people are doing. How are people selling things online? How are they selling them offline? What TV ads? What are you seeing when you're listening to Spotify? What do the ads say? What do the landing pages look like? Just keeping your eyes open for a bunch of stuff, even if it's not something that's in your market, because that's what a lot of times these big strategic ahas are going to come from. My friend doing 40 million didn't get that from the market he's selling his product in, because nobody's doing it. I don't know exactly where he got it from or if it just came up off the top of his head, if he saw somebody else doing it, but it was just a tiny, little strategic decision that now you look at 12 months of effort, both of them buying Facebook ads, both from driving traffic, both moving JVs, both moving all this stuff. One equals two, one equals 40. So anyway, again, my goal with this is not to give you the answer and give you the tactic, but to open your mind up to more strategic thinking, looking different, looking bigger, looking at other places, looking around, looking at what other people are doing, not just in the industry. Inside of that is where you start finding some of the big ahas, the big change makers, the big things that shift these things from $2 million to 40 million. So it's pretty cool. Anyway, if and when we purchase this company, I'm sure at that point would share with you guys some of the stuff on how it works and stuff like that. I'm just not at liberty, obviously, to share that because I'm under NDAs and everything. But it's just fascinating. It's really, really cool how a little shift like that can change things. So with that said, my job and my goal right now is thinking the same thing. With ClickFunnels, we're at this big transition point. Something crazy is happening with Funnel Hacking Live. I can't tell you about yet. I was going to say, you guys are going to die when you see it. And so, because of that, I have this window to make some strategic changes and differentiate in pricing and a whole bunch of things like that. So right now I'm spending a lot of time thinking about that, because I could just shift into doing what we're doing, which has worked and it's worked at a high level. But, is there something different? Is there something better? What are other people doing? We literally went and had everybody we could find search for different SaaS platforms and companies in every industry you can dream up. We end up with a Trello board with, I don't know, 200 or 300 different SaaS products. SaaS stands for software as a service, which is what ClickFunnels is. And so we've gone through and seen all those, and now we're signing up. We're looking at the prices, looking at thousands and thousands and thousands of these things. I had a chance to go see Tony Robbins about a month ago, and I was asking him, "Hey, if you were me and you're at this level and at this level, what would you do?" And he said, "Two things." He's like, "Proximity is power. Get around people who have already done what you're trying to do." And that was the first thing. And then number two was modeling. So I've modeled people that have done what I've done, but who are the people that are bigger? So, for me, I'm looking at Salesforce, I'm looking at Shopify. I'm looking at, who are these companies that are worth billions of dollars, tens of billions of dollars, hundreds of billions of dollars, in some cases? With Shopify now, it's crazy. What are they doing differently? What am I missing? What are the pieces that I didn't understand that they understand? I think about Shopify, their shopping cart platforms, they're great. I love them. But they're not worth, in my mind, 144 times or whatever worth more than we are. But they are right. And why? Because strategically, these are the things I'm wondering. How do I get proximity to him and people who've worked with him or people that understand? If I want to get that level, I've got to think like the people at that level. And so, how do I expand my thought process? How do I get myself thinking differently? And it's getting around people who think that way. I think a lot of you guys, and this is true for me as well, when I got in this business, I thought differently, and I started getting around these people who had these big visions, I was like, "Oh my gosh." And by being around them, having proximity around them, my vision started getting bigger. I started thinking bigger. I think some of you guys hopefully have felt that when he came into my world and maybe you were just trying to make a quick extra buck on the internet, and all of a sudden you get in this thing and all of a sudden you're like, "Oh my gosh, I could win Two Comma Club. I could change the world. I could start a movement. I can help people." And hopefully I've expanded your vision and proximities around that. That's why you guys need to be at Funnel Hacking Live. That's why you've got to plug in things we're doing. Because I feel like a lot of people in our community, I’m a few steps ahead, because I've been doing this for two decades now. And so my job is to keep pressing forward. I was talking yesterday to our Two Comma Club X students and I was talking about how I'm planning on reopening my inner circle but I'm also starting a new Mastermind group called Category Kings, which is for people who are between 10 and 100 million. And I said, as soon as I get to a billion dollars, I'm going to be opening another one that's helping people who are at the $100 million level get to the billion, but I'm not there yet. I haven't made $1 billion yet. I'm more than halfway there. So I'm working hard. But as soon as I get that, as soon as I cross the $1 billion mark, then I can have something where I'm going to be like, "Hey, for those of you guys who are at $100 million, let me show you the next tier. Let me show you what we did to get to the $1 billion." And so I'm trying to stay a couple of steps ahead and then taking people and pulling them up to the next level. And so, for me, I'm looking ahead like, who's already got to $1 billion? What did they do differently? What are the changes? What are the tweaks? What is the mindset? How do I strategically think differently? Because, for them, it's easy. Right now it's funny, because for some of you guys, the thought of winning Two Comma Club awards is this huge thing. Whereas right now, any idea that I had, if I was to execute on it, if it hit Two Comma Club within the first 30 days, I would think I failed. But it's just because I know the process, I know the path. It's not confusing or hard or difficult. It's like, "Oh, here's what you do. Boom, boom, boom, a million bucks." And so it's really a simple process at this point. And that's my job, is to try to, first off, inspire you guys, help you understand that, teach you, train you, give you tools and things. But it took me two decades to master all the principles so I can do that really easily. But now it's easy. So everyone wants to get to Two Comma Club in their business. I can help you because I've gone that path. And so, for me, I want to get around the thinkers who have hit $1 billion. That's simple. I was talking to someone who's friends with this dude who has sold seven or eight companies for $1 billion so far. Seven or eight times, this dude, it's like winning Two Comma Club awards as they go. Another Three Comma Club, another Three Comma Club. That dude thinks differently than me. I don't know what he's thinking about, but I want to figure that out. I've got to get around him. I've got to think differently. I've got to be strategic. And so, anyway, these are some of the things I'm working on and hopefully it helps you as well. So find the people that are the tier above you, where you want to go. Get around them. Surround yourself with them. Learn to think like them. I think a lot of times we all have this problem where we think our job is to try to get the people around us to think like us. It's like, no, no, no, no, no, my friends. That is not the goal. My job is not to get the people around me to think like me. My role is to find people I aspire to be like and to learn how to think like them. That's the difference. It's similar, this is not to get religious, but I think it's funny, for me, my beliefs are there's an all-knowing God. So there's a God. He's all-knowing, all-powerful, and what people try to do is they try to bend the will of God. Well, God should believe this, and we should believe this, and tries to shift our thinking. They want God's thinking to match what we believe, it's like, no, no, no, no, no. That's not how it works, you guys. The goal is not to try to shift God's thinking to match ours. The goal is to figure out what does God think and then we think like him. And I think that sometimes our ego or pride or whatever tries to shift to the other way around. And so it's true in that sense, but it's so true also in this business sense where it's like, find the people who are already what you want to do, you aspire to be like, and find out what they think and think like them. Don't try to bend their will to yours. Because if you go to me and you're broke and you're like, "I'm going to teach Russell how to get Two Comma Club. This is the way it should be." I'm like, "No, you're dumb." You can get smart. That's the cool thing about it. You can learn these things, but you're wrong right now. Because I've done this a million times and it's not that hard. Let me just show you how to it is." And so I think it's humbling ourselves. It's getting ego out of the way. Finding people a level up above us. Strategically syncing with them and then learning like they learn, believe what they believe. Think what they think. And that's the goal. So anyway, there you go. I hope that helps you guys. I love this game. I love this business. It's so much fun. So much development, so much growth, so much learning, but only if you're willing to change. So be open to it. It's worth it. As smart as you are and I am and we all are, there's always somebody who knows more than us and it's cool and exciting to be open to that and to go search for it and learn from them and try to get to the next level. So with that said, have an amazing weekend, you guys. Wherever you are in the world, I appreciate you. I see you. I know you're working hard. You're trying to create your dreams. You're trying to create your dream lifestyle. You're trying to help other people. I see you. I respect you. Grateful for you guys doing that. And if you don’t have your tickets yet for Funnel Hacking Live, what are you waiting for? The party is starting. I think we're at $2 million, $3 million. I don't know. It's an expensive event to put on. So I'm putting out on huge party for you guys. I'm spending millions of dollars to entertain and educate you. You should just be there. Don't miss it. Go to funnelhackinglive.com and get your tickets now. With that said, I appreciate you all and I'll talk to you all again soon. Bye, everybody. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A late night conversation with my dad about how entrepreneurs can protect their personal assets.Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com Also, don’t forget to check out bookease.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Want to be a fly on the wall as I talk to Tony today!? Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com And don’t forget to check out takethechallenge.com ---Transcript--- Russell Brunson: Hey, what's up, everybody? This is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to The Marketing Secrets Podcast. Oh, do I have a treat for you today. This week I had a chance to interview Tony Robbins, because a couple of reasons, number one, we are doing the Own Your Future Challenge that's coming up. Depending when you're listening to this, it's probably happening right now. And you can actually go sign up for that for free at takethechallenge.com. In fact, I would recommend pausing this, go sign up just so you've got it. But takethechallenge.com, a challenge about how to own your future and how to do a bunch of really cool things. And so, because the challenge is happening, and Tony and Dean are doing this with a whole bunch of other amazing people, I had a really rare opportunity to interview Tony. They said, "Hey, do you want to interview Tony for your podcast and your YouTube channel, all these things?" And of course, my answer was, "Yes." But I told him, I was like, "I don't really want to do an interview like everybody else is doing an interview. I want to do the interview based on things that I'm actually working on right now." So right now, as some of you know, I'm writing a book. My first personal development book ever. That's all I'm telling you. But a lot of what is in there, things I learned from Tony, and just principles and things I've learned from him a decade and a half ago that shifted my future and changed my destiny. And so, I said, "I want to ask you some questions that are a little different than everybody else." And he said, "Sure." I had a chance to ask him a whole bunch of really cool questions. I had a chance to ask him the difference between the science of achievement and the art of fulfillment. How can people go achieve everything, but be miserable? How can people have nothing, but they're happy? How do these things work together? These are ying and the yang, how do they work together? And I was able to ask him directly. So I asked him about the six human needs, which is one of my favorite topics of all time I think and had the biggest impact on me from Tony, and then how he gets from growth to contribution. And, oh... Anyway, it was amazing. It was so much fun. So, you guys are lucky because you're going to have a chance to listen to it right now. So, what I'm going to do is I'm going to give you the link in, go to takethechallenge.com, go sign up for the free challenge that way you'll have a chance to hear from Dean, from Tony, from me, from Jenna, from Sheldon, from Jamie Kern Lima, from Brendan Bouchard, from a whole bunch of just amazing people. It is a completely free challenge, so go sign up for it at takethechallenge.com and then come back and listen to my interview with Tony, and hope you enjoy it, it's going to be a lot of fun. And with that said we can cue the theme song. When I come back, you have a chance to hear my interview with Tony Robbins, about all the cool things I wanted to ask him. Oh, how cool is that? All right. We'll see you guys here in a minute. What's up, everybody. This is Russell Brunson. I'm here today with the one and only Tony Robbins. And we're going to be talking about a whole bunch of really cool things right now. There's a challenge coming up right out in the next... actually, it's happening right now as this is being recorded, and a lot of you guys watching, called the Own Your Future Challenge. And we'll talk more about that here in a minute, but before we do, I have this really unique and exciting opportunity to ask Tony a couple of questions. And so, I hope you guys enjoy some of the questions like I'm going to be enjoying this because he's someone I've been studying and learning from now for, man, probably 20-something years, had a chance to know you now for probably 13, 14 years, which is really, really cool. And it's not often I get to ask you questions. So, now I got you for 20 or 30 minutes. I'm excited to do that. So, how are you feeling today, Tony? Tony Robbins: I'm feeling awesome, buddy. Russell: Well, obviously the challenge we're going to be talking about more towards the end is about owning your future. This is this thing that we're trying to go towards. And especially right now, after all of the season we've all been through, where there's so much chaos and change and everything. Now it's like, okay, let's get background and let's look towards the future. But I wanted to kind of start off probably differently than some people have asked you, just because I'm in the middle of working on a book right now. And in the book, I'm trying to figure out this thing that I heard originally from you. You talked about this concept of the science of achievement versus the art of fulfillment. And this is something in my life, especially as I'm trying to own my future, and try to go this direction, I've found multiple times where I've achieved something in my life, and then expecting to be super fulfilled and excited, and having almost the opposite effect happen. I'd love to hear some of your thoughts about just those two, the yin yang between achievement and fulfillment and maybe why they're not exactly the same, and how we can have more success feeling fulfilled when we do have success. Tony: Well, I was trying years ago, I was trying to figure out, how do you really define an extraordinary life? Not just success. Success for most people, I think means getting what they want. I think fulfillment is giving what you're made for. And I think that the challenge for most people is, as we're growing up and we're developing our skill and our ability to start to master our own world, there's at least in Western culture, there's a huge push for us all to be achievers. And most of us have been so rewarded for that. I'm here on your podcast because of it. You're doing podcasts because of it. We both have managed to pull that off. But as you've discovered, as you're now, what, 41 did you say? Russell: Yup, 41. Tony: You're 41 years old. There's a stage of your life where you start to wake up and go, "It's not enough to just be successful. It's not enough to just be financially free." You know, I know that sounds crazy to someone who's not there yet, but you don't have to wait until you're financially free to have a sense of fulfillment. So, what I propose to people is that life requires two master skills. Skill number one is the science of achievement, which means the ability to take whatever you envision and make it real. Turn the invisible into the visible. To me, that's a spiritual process. But how do I go from, I have this idea, to living that idea or delivering that idea to millions of people around the world? To me, that's science. And the reason I say that is science is because it's duplicatable. If I want to make more money, I can go, as I did, interview 100 of the smartest financial people in the world and find out exactly what they did. And they all did different things, but there are certain universal patterns that I did in MONEY Master the Game, and Unshakeable, and so forth. And when you understand them, if you sow the same seeds, you reap the same rewards. So, in the financial world, it's a science. That's achievement. If you're looking at your health, it's a certain amount of science, meaning we're all biochemically unique, right Russell? But everybody has certain fundamentals, and if you violate them, you're going to have dis-ease or low energy. If you align with them, you're going to have an abundance of vitality, energy, and strength. So, that's science. But fulfillment is an art. That's why I said, there's two skills. The science of achievement, which you can duplicate and learn, and I've taught for decades, and you have as well, you did an extraordinary job of it. But then, the art of fulfillment. And the reason I call it the art is because it isn't a science, because it's different for every single person. That's why most people miss out it. First they miss out on it because they're so focused on achievement, and they think that's going to fulfill them. But I ask your audience, even yourself, think of something. You and I have talked about this before. Think of something you've achieved that you worked your tail off to achieve and then you achieved it, and then your brain said, "Is this all there is?" Or worse, how about something you achieve and you really were happy about it, but how long did you stay happy? You made this incredible achievement, took you years to get to. Were you happy for the next five years because of it? Russell: No. Tony: The next year? The next six months? The next three months? The next two weeks? Russell: The next morning you wake up? Tony: Most people are somewhere between three hours and three weeks maximum before they go right back to where they were because the brain adjusts. It adjusts because we're not made to sit around and just be fulfilled. We're made to grow. And so, the great part of achievement is it causes you to strive for growth. The problem is, people just keeping the hamster on the wheel, trying to achieve more, and they aren't making sure along the way they're fulfilled. So, I believe these are both critically important. If you ask me honestly which one's more important, it's fulfillment because success without fulfillment is the ultimate failure. I mean, I interviewed 50 self-made billionaires, the smartest financial investors in the history of the world for MONEY Master the Game. I did it over two and a half years, and about maybe 12, 13 of them are really good friends now. And I can tell you, out of that group of 50, and this is zero judgment, maybe four of them are happy people. Now, you go, "Oh, see? Money makes you unhappy." No, money just magnifies who you are. If you're mean, you have more to be mean with. If you're giving, you have more to give with. It doesn't change anything. But these people, they're not bad people. They're brilliant people, but they're so brilliant in one area and they miss the fulfillment side. To see one of these men arguing with his wife and kid, because they bought some jewelry that I think was around $2,500 and the guy is a multi, multi billionaire. He couldn't spend all his money in all these years, and yet he's got conflict in his own family because of his mindset. There are some people, for example Paul Tudor was with me the other day and he was talking about a neighbor of his, I won't mention a name, but the guy's in a $40 million home, he goes over with his young son, this was a few years ago Paul did this, and the guy has his own grass tennis court. And Paul said, "I've never seen that." Paul's a billionaire, one of the smartest financial people in the world. And bottom line, he goes, "Your son opened one of the can of balls." The son I think was like five or six or seven at the time. And the guy went crazy. "Get all those balls. When you open them up, they lose their pressure. That's $298." And Paul's like, "Bad boy. Okay, I'll give you the $3." So, some people, it doesn't matter how much they achieve. They're not experiencing the fulfillment. And it's more people than you would think. That's just an extreme example to get people's attention. So, my whole thing is, the art of fulfillment is finding what lights you up. And it's different for everybody. Now, if you can find a way to achieve and be fulfilled, that's pretty awesome. But most people get so caught up in achievement, they miss that other side. You think about the guys, the first Apollo astronauts that walked on the moon. I mean, you got to think about these guys. Imagine you're with 100,000 people competing to be an astronaut walking on the moon. And then it's down to 10,000, and then it's 1,000, and then it's 100. And then you're up in the space capsule with this rocket structure in back, and no one knows for sure who's going to make it, and you make it to the moon. You walk on the moon, you come back, you make it safely. There's a ticker-tape parade for you in New York City. You shake the president's hand. Now what do you do for the rest of your life for adventure? Russell: You can't match that. Tony: You're 34 years old or 35, I can't remember what they were, but I think it was 34, 35 years old. I got to interview three of them later on in life. Almost all of them ended up with drug and alcohol problems. And they talked about it quite openly, because they forgot to find adventure in a smile. So, they've got this one big achievement. And how long does that last? It's historic, but the emotion of it is not the same as the years go by because we're made to keep growing. What makes you fulfilled is growth. Do you want to know what makes you happy? It's called progress. Progress equals happiness. If you're making progress, even if you're not there yet, you're going to be lit up. Your weight isn't where you want it to be. But sure enough, you decide to start on a process and you're starting to feel better physically. You lose a few inches and you feel some energy and momentum, you're lit up. You're the ideal weight and you just stay there, no progress, doesn't feel very alive. So, we have to find a way to make progress. And it's different for everybody. Some people find it in music. Some people find it by serving in a non-profit. Some people find it with their kids. But you got to find what lights you up. And again, it's different for everyone. Russell: I'm curious, people who started going through this, the Own the Future Challenge, they're going to be given a very scientific, here's the steps to have success in one area of something. What would be the biggest thing for them, or just one thing they could anchor themselves as they're going through that, to make sure that they're not missing the fulfillment during this journey they're going through? Tony: I think it's helpful to think of this in sequences, because it's hard to be able to write and do everything. You know, if you're doing really great in your business, often you're not taking care of your body. Or if you're doing good in your business and your body, often your relationship doesn't get enough time. Or your relationship's doing great, you don't spend enough time with your kids. If your kids are doing great, often some of your finances aren't straight. So, it's the nature of the human being to focus on what they're good at and miss the others. But you know, I love studying different philosophies. Philosophy, or even religion, if you step out of it, what is religion designed to be? And there are many great religions around the world. I'm personally a Christian. That's what I believe, but I don't tell people what to believe. But whatever you believe, it's designed to guide you to create a greater quality of life. And regardless of what I may subscribe to, I like to learn from every philosophy because we're all human. I go to India usually about twice, well, about once every two years I take a group of people there and we go to a place called Varanasi. It's one of the oldest cities in the world. It's like 3,800 years old. And what's striking about this location is, the people come there because they believe in their religion, in the Hindu religion, if you die in Varanasi, you go to heaven. You don't come back. Their idea of hell is coming back and reliving everything, right? Rebirth. And so, they have this experience, when somebody dies there, they believe that they don't come back and they're so happy to die in Varanasi. They’ll crawl there, people are dying there. I tried to save a lady. I was actually helping a lady who was being helped by the Mother Teresa group, and she was angry because she wanted to die. What do you people do, messing with me? And then they carry the bodies there and they burn the bodies. They've been burning bodies 24 hours a day. There's wood stacked about five story high, and then those ashes of the person are put in the Ganges. And no one cries, because they see the body burning as, the teacher is gone and now the spirit is free. So, I tell you that because you don't have to subscribe to something to say, "Wow, that's fascinating, no pain in death and you have this total trust in the universe or God or whatever term you want to use for it." But they also have what they believe are the four aims of life. And they think about them in a sequence. And I think it's sometimes useful for people. So, if you want to jot them down, the first one in the sequence is called Artha, A-R-T-H-A. It's one of the first aims of life. And what it really is, is security and prosperity. And so, if you don't have security and prosperity, it's really hard to enjoy the central parts of life for any extended way. It's really hard to feel your sense of purpose when you're worried about whether you can feed your family. It's really hard to feel that highest spiritual sense. It doesn't mean you can't. It just means it's harder. And so, the Indian culture understands that. And instead of saying, "This is bad or not spiritual," they say, "Finding your prosperity, your security, finding the way to do useful work that you feel good about, that you know is helpful, but also gets you to an economic place where you're prosperous is one of the first aims of life." And then, when you get that automatically the other dimensions start to open up. Now, you don't have to wait, but it's useful to remember, that is where we start. That's where I started, it's where we all start. How do I make sure my family's taken care of? We didn't have enough money for food when I was a kid. So, this was an obsession for me at an early age. I want to do so well, we don't have to worry about that stuff. But it's not non-spiritual. It's about saying "This is part of life that is anchoring in the science of achievement." Think of it that way, right? But then the next level is called Kama, K-A-M-A. And that's pleasure. And it's like, okay, now that you have security and prosperity as a base, and it's strong, you don't have to wait till then, the next thing you start developing is enjoying more of life. Pleasure is the driving force of life. You've got to find what gives you pleasure. And I don't just mean sensuality. I mean, it can be art, it can be music, it can be serving. It's all the different textures of life, because without pleasure, life's pretty dead. So, instead of going, "Oh my God, what am I going to do?" It's like, "Okay, let me go to this challenge and figure out how to get my security and prosperity down. Let me think of a new vehicle. Let me figure out how to get money chasing me instead of me chasing money." That's really what this challenge starts out with. And then the Kama side is like, "How much can I enjoy along the way while I'm learning? How much can I enjoy learning? Just the experience. How much can I enjoy building this business from the very beginning or taking a business there to the next level?" That's part of what Kama is, is finding the pleasure in the expansion and the appreciation of life. And then, the third level is what you and I have probably most focused on, would be Dharma. Dharma is like, "Okay, I've got so much security and prosperity and I know what gives me pleasure in life. And I've found useful work." It's like, "Okay, what's my higher purpose? What is that deeper purpose for me at this stage in my life?" And a lot of people overvalue this because they've tried to make it something huge. You know, for me, my purpose is... I used to have these long mission statements. "The principle of life is to be the most passionate, playful, outrageous, enjoyable, generous giving example of God's grace, as I serve millions of people over the..." Now it's like, "How can I help?" You know? Because that's really what it is. When I'm serving, I feel alive. So, the number one question I've got is, how can I help? Whenever someone's coming, that's the question. It's a burning question and it's a beautiful question because it brings joy and love to me and to them because most people are happy to have some help from somebody who sincerely cares. And it's not like I have all the answers. It's just, I have a lot of them because I've made it 61 years and I've traveled to 150 countries around the world and dealt with tens of millions of people. So, I'm fortunate because I’m not going to be an idiot, I should have ways to be able to help. So, it's like finding what is it? What is that way of life that is true for you at this stage? You've got enough security and prosperity and of pleasure. What's it all about? And then, ultimately it leads to what they call Moksha. And M-O-K... Moksha. M-O-K-S-H-A, I believe is how they spell it. And that's your unity with God. Now, does that say you're not unified with God at the beginning? Of course not. It's just like, there's a point where that really becomes the priority in somebody's life. And in their view, yes, you work on all four of them, but you are going to in the beginning, put more focus on securing your life and getting so you're not chasing money, money's chasing you and you have freedom for your family, right? You're going to, in the beginning, you'll be more focused on hopefully enjoying the pleasures of learning and growing and expanding and building something so you don't miss out. And then, you certainly want to figure out what your purpose is, but again, most people are trying to make it so big so they'll feel significant, when really it's just what lights you up. And if you do all those things, it leads to a greater connection to the universe, God, whatever you want to call it. So, even though I'm not Indian, and I'm Christian, I still think that general philosophy is a helpful way to look at your life, and also keeps you from beating yourself up. Because a lot of us are pretty hard, including you, Russell, I know you really well, on ourselves. We expect ourselves to do everything perfect, every moment, every time. And life is a journey of growing. I always tell people, "What makes you successful? Good judgment. Making good decisions. What does good judgment come from? Experience. Where does experience come from? Often, bad judgment." That's how you learn, right? Russell: The circle. Tony: What I've tried to do in my life, was take the bad judgments and the good judgments and say, "Let me compress decades into days and share with you so you don't have to learn by trial and error, show you the shortcuts to those things." And that's what I've done with all of my events and books and challenges, and everything else that we do. Russell: Oh, so cool. Okay. The next question I going to ask you about, because the first UPW I came to was in Toronto. I'm really bad at years, but probably 12, 14 years ago, something like that. And at the time, I had had some level of success, but there were a lot of times in my life where I felt like I was doing this personal development, trying to grow and I was trying to contribute. I was going through growth and contribution, but sometimes I felt like I had my foot on the gas at one moment and my foot on the brake at the other time, and I'm spinning around, and I'm just like, "Why am I not moving?" I was so frustrated. And one of the tools that you give at UPW, that was for me, probably the first big aha I got from you, and I've had so many since then, but it was the one that was the paradigm shift where I was like, "Okay, the student's now ready to listen to everything you're saying." And that's when you start talking about the six human needs. And I looked at it because I was looking at growth and contribution, which are the needs of the spirit. And these are the things I was focusing on, like how do I grow myself? How do I contribute? But I kept falling back because of the needs of the body or needs of the personality, those four needs. And because I didn't have those things in order, or were out of whack or they would be for a little while organized and I could go over here, but then something would happen. I'd slip back into them. And those kept me from progressing until I learned how to manage those things and get in a spot where my needs were being met. Then I could go and focus on growth and contribution. And I think in this challenge, people are going to be inspired to start doing growth and contribution, but I don't want them to be like I was, where I had the foot on the gas going forward the foot on the brake. I would love if you could talk to us a little bit about the four needs of the body and how we can take care of those, to make sure that we're able to actually go and focus on growth and contribution. Tony: Well, it kind of ties in a little bit with what I was just sharing, I've just got to get it to another angle, but you're very astute in this area. So, for people that don't know, early in my life, early, I don't know, maybe 10, 15 years into my career, I've been doing it 44 years, I remember I traveled to more than 100 countries and I'd started seeing the same patterns. Obviously, when you go to Asia, there's different values. People value the group more than the individual. Saving face is critical in Asia. It's very different in America, right? So, I noticed those differences, but what I noticed no matter where I went, was you saw the same problems, the same arguments, the same problems in relationships, the same issues with people's bodies, same financial issues. And I began to realize, while we do get conditioned, our goals, our dreams, our desires may come from some of our conditioning and our life experience, but there are certain inherent needs that all human beings have. And I came up with six, not from a book, just from seeing people and then playing with it back and forth until I could see that I could cover everything that human beings really do. And so, the bottom line is, I found that certainty was the basic, fundamental human need of all human beings. The need to be certain you could avoid pain, and that you could have ideally some pleasure or comfort. Think of it as certainty/comfort. We all want that because without certainty and comfort, we have pain, we have continuous pain. You got damage, continuous damage equals bad. So, it's actually survival instinct. The difference though, is I started, as I went through these six needs, I started seeing everybody has them. But as I will describe them to you really fast, there is a difference. And the difference is how you value them. For some people, certainty as the number one thing in life. If you change anything, they get upset. If you move things on their desk, they freak out. You change the time, they freak out. That's an example of certainty. Some people get their certainty by doing the same thing every day. Some people get certainty by trusting God's going to guide them. Some people get certainty because they've screwed up so much in the past and they still came out finding a way, and their brain goes, "I know I'll find a way, but I don't know what it is." Some people get certainty by smoking a cigarette because they're all stressed out and they take a breath, when they breathe in, it makes them comfortable and certain, right? Even though they're killing themselves. Some people get certainty by eating food for comfort. So, everybody has the need. The only two differences in human beings are, what's the order of importance for you that's going to completely change your direction in life? If you're certainty driven, you're going to be moving this direction away from the challenge. If you're uncertainty driven, meaning it's higher value for you, you're going to be going straight at it. And direction determines ultimate destination or destiny. So, once I know your direction, I know where you're going. I know what challenges you're going to face, I know what opportunities you’re going to have. Okay? So, the difference is, different orders and different rules. Some people, I got to do the same thing to be certain. Other people, I've just got to trust in God and I'm certain. Right? Very different. Some people work out to be certain. They get that strength in their body, they're ready to rock and roll again. We restored their certainty or their comfort. Some people eat to do it. Some of these ways you do are neutral. They don't affect you either way. They're just okay. Some actually have a negative impact, like smoking a cigarette. Some have a positive impact, like let's say trusting in God perhaps, if you believe in that, or working out certainly does. All right? So, the second human need though, outside of certainty is uncertainty, just so your audience knows. Uncertainty, variety, we all need surprise. I ask people at events, "Who here loves surprises?" Everybody raises their hand and says, "I." I say, "Bullshit. You like the surprises you want, right? The surprises you don't want, you call problems." But we need some variety, we need surprise to feel alive. Too much variety, people freak out. Too much certainty, people are bored out of their mind. So, are you in the lukewarm middle? No. You got to learn how to use both. Third human need, the need for significance, the need to feel unique, special, important. Everybody has it, including the people saying, "I don't want to be significant." What they're really saying is, "I don't want to be judged. I don't want anybody to be upset with me if I'm significant." Right? But some people get significance by working harder than anybody else. Some people do it by studying the Bible or Bhagavad Gita or whatever. Some people get that certainty by way of how they dress or their tattoos, or some people do it by money. Some people do it by being more generous. There's a million ways you can be significant or important to people or to feel needed. We all have the need. The only question is, how do you need it, and is it number one, two, three, four, five, changes how you're going to end up in one. Fourth, the need for love and connection. Everyone wants love and connection. Everyone needs it, whether they want it or not. Most people settle for connection because love is just too scary. And then, those first four needs, as you know, are the needs of the personality. We all need certainty to survive. We all need variety to feel alive. We all need some feeling of significance. And we all need some feeling of love. When a person feels completely insignificant to anyone, and unloved, that's when they start thinking about checking out. That's when someone will consider suicide, where there's no compelling future for them. So, these needs are critical, but almost everybody meets them. Somebody meets the needs by smoking and then tearing other people down. You can feel important by making other people less important. If I move you down, I have the illusion I'm moving up. It doesn't really work long-term but it works for the moment. Sugar feels good for the moment, long-term it doesn't feel good. So, you can meet your needs in positive ways, neutral or negative, but everyone finds a way to meet their needs to some extent. But the ultimate needs that you described were five and six. You got to grow to feel alive. We grow or we die. Like I just said, progress equals happiness, right? And we grow so we have something to give, because if we contribute in a meaningful way, we feel more alive. So, a lot of people jump on and go, "I want to grow and give, grow and give." Which is, there's zero wrong with that. I think it's fantastic. But like the example I gave you from India, your certainty is often tied to your access to food and shelter, and a quality of life, and maybe a certain amount of income to provide for your family. Right? So, yes, you do need to honor those, but everyone's different. Some people value love as the number one thing and they move in this direction. Some people value significance, and they go in a different direction, because the more you demand significance, the less love you usually get. Right? Because people have been pushed off by it. If somebody wants totally certain, they go in one direction. If they want variety, they go in a different direction. Again, direction determines your ultimate destination or destiny. So, when I know which one are your top two, I know how your life is going to turn out. And then I ask questions to find out, what does it take for you to feel significant? Do you have to make a billion dollars or pray to God and feel the connection? Walk out and go for a run by the ocean and feel the universe with you. Everyone has different ways. Once I know what you want and how you go about getting it, I know your opportunities, I know your challenges, and I know how to coach you. So, your question though, was... to be specific, I had to give that context so everyone knows what we're talking about, is, okay, I want to grow and contribute because those are the spiritual needs. Those are the ones most people miss. That's what makes you most fulfilled. But I still got to do these other four things and they're really easy to do. So, I think of it as saying, "Find your vehicle, find what's going to give you that economic security and idea, and economic independence. Again, when you're not chasing money, money might be start chasing you. That's an important part. You have to work your off and refine it. Science of achievement. Along the way, make sure you find the variety, the pleasure of the uniqueness of everything you're doing, and stopping and bringing it in. Every morning I do a process where I think of three things I'm most grateful for and I experience them fully, and then I think of a blessing and send the blessing to all my family and friends. And then I think of what I'm going to accomplish next. And that sets up plenty of that variety and certainty. Significance. You know, the most significant thing to me is love. But it's like, what am I doing that matters? Let me do some things that matter today. Love. What can I do that's kind? The fastest way to love is to give love, right? Fastest way to kindness is give kindness in a world where the world is pretty divided now, but it's still pretty magical when somebody does it authentically. So, it's not hard to meet the first four needs. Growing and contributing. That's where you're going to feel the most fulfilled. So, when people go through these challenges, what I always try to do is, I don't just give them the skill, I give them the emotion to follow through because otherwise you can know what to do and not do what you know anyway. So, that's kind of the way I try to balance it. Again, science of achievement and art of fulfillment, and just be aware of them both and focusing on both instead of just one. Russell: Yeah. Oh, I love that. I think for me, it was interesting because I noticed that when I was struggling to contribute or grow, it was because something was out of whack. I wasn't getting my love and connection or I wasn't feeling significant or something wasn't in place. And when I got to the point where I could figure out, okay, here's ways to make sure that I'm feeling these needs in a positive way, not a negative way, then it takes that pressure off. And I was like, "Now I can go grow. Now I can contribute. Now I can do things." I've noticed even nowadays, if it gets out of whack again, it's like I got to make sure all these things are spinning and I can go back and I can show up at a level that I can't when these things aren't running the right way. Tony: Yeah, that makes total sense. Russell: Yeah. Cool. My next question, this is going to kind of transition a little more to the challenge now. Obviously, a lot of people who are in your world and my world, they're coming because the growth, right? They're learning and they're learning, and they're growing, and that part's so much fun for all of us. The growth part is addicting. And I think that's why people love reading books and going through courses and all sorts of stuff. But I know for me, the real growth didn't come from me in this growth phase where I was learning stuff, it's as I started contributing and started helping other people. For me it was, I was starting my business, I was teaching other people. And that's when I first started to really connect with that contribution and that part of it. I know that that's one of the big things that this challenge is about, is getting people from a growth phase to, now how do you contribute? How do you take this knowledge and these ideas and the things that you're developing and learning, and how do you use them to serve other people? And I'd love for you to talk just a little about that transition, of how we transition from a growth mindset to, here's how I can contribute with these gifts that we've been given. Tony: I think the challenge is called Own Your Future Challenge, that we're doing. And it's myself and Dean and an army of just great friends of ours who are smart. The focus here is execution. It's not just about more learning and growing in this one. It's like showing you, you've got some knowledge. Someone you care about, bless you, has knowledge and you can take that knowledge and bring it to people in a world, even when it's shut down. I mean, my business, I've got 80 companies plus now, but my core mission with my business is Robbins Research, where I did my events and I've done my events. I mean, they literally, they made what I did illegal because the size of it. I'd do minimum, it'd be 10,000, most of them 15, 12,000 people, somewhere in that range. And all of a sudden, they made it illegal in every country in the world that I wanted to go to. Australia, London, Italy, France, everywhere, America, all over the place. And so, I had to figure out what to do. But I've got to tell you, I'm reaching more people now, and I'm doing it in a different way. You know? So, the tools to be able to reach people all over the earth, I mean, four billion people are on the internet now and we're going to see another two billion join over the next five or 10 years. Almost 50% more people are going to join the internet. The size of the marketplace of people you can serve is unbelievable. But you have to be able to get the skills and you got to get yourself to execute. A lot of people, as you said, get addicted to just the learning experience, which is the aha moments, like, "Oh my God, I understand that. That makes sense. Oh, I can change the world with that." But you know, I was very lucky, Jim Rowan was my original teacher, the personal development speaker. Some of your listeners probably know his name. He's been passed away for some time, but he used to always say, "Tony, don't let your learning lead to knowledge and become a fool." He said, "Let your learning lead to action." And he'd tell you to become wealthy. And to him, wealthy wasn't just money. It was like an extraordinary life. It was living life on your terms. It was life that was full of joy and happiness and fulfillment and meaning and economic freedom. And I think that's what we're really looking to do with people in this challenge, is show them the tools to execute. Yes, you can have the excitement of learning all this stuff and there's no charge for the fricking thing. It's these challenges, my last one I'm going to do this year. I did two this year. But I wanted to do it with my friends because I wanted people to have a vehicle. A lot of people don't have that first Artha. They don't have a vehicle for prosperity and security. And they're looking at a world where the world's changed, it's upside down and it's not going to go back to exactly how it was. Some things will return, obviously. But a lot of them aren't. And so, your job is to figure out, "What am I going to do now?" And so, where are you going to figure that out? So, we decided to bring the best people we know together to show you and show you how to use technology to do things in minutes. When I started out in this business, I mean, it took months to pull off. But literally the technology can do things for you today, as we all know. And so, I'm very excited about we're going to be able to offer people. But in a few days, they're not just going to have more knowledge and excitement, they're going to have perhaps a business or at least the beginnings of a business. And maybe even be online starting that out all in the few days of the challenge. So, that's the difference I think we're really focused on here, is making sure that... I always tell people, knowledge is not power. Knowledge is potential power. Execution beats and trumps knowledge every day of the week. That's our goal, is to get people to really each day, make some small actions, so by the end of the challenge, they're really in a place of having their business, or if they had a business, taking it to another level. Russell: Yeah. Well, I'm excited for the challenge. I'm going to be flying out to Phoenix and hanging out with you and Dean and everybody for one of the days. Tony: Looking forward to that. Russell: And I'm actually bringing my twin boys. My twin boys are 15 years old and I'm trying to show them how to control their future. So, they're going to come and sit there and experience it. And then, we're actually going to go out afterwards with some friends and we're going to go and feed the homeless and spend some time, and just showing them some really cool experiences after the challenge. So, I'm excited for it because I'll be participating in it as a student, and also as a one of the teachers as well. Tony: I just want to say something about you too, Russell, to your audience. You know, a lot of people virtual saying, "I'm going to go feed somebody," but you do this all the time, just like I do. It's not like something you do and then tell people you're doing it. You're just really doing it. And I love that you share it. Same reason I used to never share what I did in this area. But then I start realizing it inspires people to consider something new. And we're not doing it because we're just such good people. We're doing it because it's so fulfilling to do something for someone you don't even know. It's people don't understand what that does to you, to just do what's right. It doesn't have to be 24 hours a day. And especially doing it with your kids so they get addicted to it at an early age. I really honor you for that. Russell: Oh, thanks. I'm excited. It's going to be a fun experience. It's going to be a new experience for them. I think it's going to be awesome. Well, for those who are listening, if you're watching the video, there will probably be a link down below. But if you're listening, the sign up link to go sign up for the challenge, if you go to takethechallenge.com, that's where you can go sign up for the challenge through our link. And we've got a bunch of really cool bonuses and stuff for everybody who gets involved and hangs out. But that's where everything will be at, at takethechallenge.com. And if you do that, you have a chance to hang out with Tony and me and Dean and Jenna. And I don't even know. You have some amazing speakers that are part of this, people that only Tony could bring into the world, nobody else would say yes to be part of this. He's got some amazing people who he has a chance to come and hang out with and participate and learn how to start your own business. How to start going from this, from a growth mindset to contribution. "How do I create a business that serves other people?" I think I never understood that was what business was really about until honestly, probably the last seven or eight years since I started running ClickFunnels, and I seen, when you create a business and you help other people, that contribution, you see how people's lives are changed. I'm not talking about my own. I'm talking about people who've used ClickFunnels. You know, one of my favorite success stories inside of our ClickFunnels community is a couple named Brandon and Kaelin Poulin. And they were young, 22, 23-year-old couple when they came into our world, and she's really good at losing weight. And she took her knowledge and her experience, and now they've helped over a million women to lose weight. Tony: Wow. Russell: They've built a huge company that's 70, 80 employees now. And they're changing the lives of so many people and it's one person, one person taking their knowledge, turning it into something they can contribute. And it literally, the ripple effect of that is huge. You look at a million women, that's amazing, but those women have families and kids and communities they serve. And that ripple effects keeps going out. And that's just one person. And so, you never know where it's going to turn until you take that knowledge and turn it to something amazing. Tony: You think about where we are today, because of technology you can do that so fast. Try doing that 20 years ago. Trust me, it was a very different process. So, the possibility of that kind of impact is there. So, it all comes down to having an orientation that realizes that the only way to get wealthy is do more for other people than anybody else is doing, and do it consistently. And of course, if you add that much value, you'll have value that's added to you as well. But learning how to do that quickly, efficiently, step-by-step, that's what this challenge course is about. So, we look forward to seeing you guys there. Russell: That's awesome. Well, thank you, Tony. Thank you everybody. Again, go to takethechallenge.com, get signed up and we'll see you guys live here in a couple of days. So, thanks Tony. I appreciate you. Tony: Thank you, buddy. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Here is the exciting final part of this special three episode series! On this episode, Russell and Josh talk quite a bit about the new book Russell is currently working on! The new book will be the first (of possibly many) personal development book that Russell has written. We also get to hear why Russell loves to write books and why he thinks everyone should write one. So listen in to the final part of Russell and Josh’s “Outwitting The Devil” interview. Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ---Transcript--- Russell Brunson: What's up everybody. This Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the third and final episode from the Outwitting The Devil interview with Josh Forti. Hopefully you enjoyed the first two episodes. If you missed any of them, go back and listen to episode one, two and this is part three of three. In this one, Josh started asking me questions about my new books. Why I was so excited about Outwitting The Devil, by how I'm using this? Why I'm writing my fourth book and a bunch of other really cool things. So I hope you enjoy it. And you've enjoyed this interview series, please let me know, let Josh know. The best way to do that is take a picture of any of these on your phone, post them on your social media and tag me and him and let us know what you thought about the episodes. Thanks again, you guys. I appreciate you all for listening with that said, let's queue up the exciting conclusion of the Josh Forti, Russell Brunson Outwitting The Devil Podcast interview. Josh Forti: Okay. I want to do this because we're talking about all these amazing books and I don't know, this is probably like two, three weeks ago. Maybe it's a little bit longer that. You start hinting on Instagram about this book. And I'm like, "Oh my gosh. There's another book? What could it possibly be?" And then last week I'm out here and you started telling me about it and what it is. Russell: Showing you the deal. Josh: It's not a marketing book. It's the next piece and it's your first ever... And I don't want to spoil it for them. I'm going to say it's like your first ever take at personal development. Talk to us about this book. When's it coming out? How did this come about and the details of that, because I'm super, super excited for it. Russell: I think it was my only, hopefully. But I said that about Dot Com Secrets too. Josh: I don't believe that at all. There's going to be a trilogy for... Russell you're going to be writing books till you die dude. Russell: I don't know. Writing is so painful but this one, again, it's me coming back. We launched Traffic Secrets. The world goes chaotic and I have more time and I'm trying to just occupy my mind. Josh: Which by the way, how perfect time. My heart was completely broken when you had to cancel the Traffic Secrets event because I was supposed to speak to there. I was like, "No." But how perfect of a timing was Traffic Secrets when- Russell: There are pros and cons of it. It was really good from a selling book standpoint. It was really hard for making New York times bestseller list, which we actually hit, which I'm still freaked out about. It was tough because Amazon wasn't shipping books. Things weren't shipped, all sorts of chaos. They said books weren't essential and so like it was hard to hit lists because you'd sell 10,000 copies of books in a week but Amazon was waiting two, three, four weeks to ship them because it wasn't... The way that the lists work is, how many did you sell in retail outlets? How many do you sell on USA today? All the things. And so when you have the big push, but then some books aren't being counted four or five weeks later because Amazon doesn't consider them essential. They're not sure when they can glut. Normally it takes 10,000 books or something to hit a bestseller list. We hit over 100,000 to be able to do it. It was way harder, way more stressful, but we got it. But it was easier to sell because I had more time. Anyway, a lot of pros with that. Plus it was crazy because in the beginning of the book I talked about there's a storm coming and then literally it was like, we're in the middle it. You should give this book right now... Josh: Literally right now. Russell: I think I'm similar to you. I think a lot of people in our community where it's just like, my mind is always spinning. I can't stop. Josh: I cannot shut it off ever. Russell: It's like there's got to be something I got to be thinking about. And again, it was harder me to find stuff for me to geek out on inside of marketing and business. It was just hard to find the next... I don't know. Every level you get to, it's harder to find the next level. I'm sure there's time where Michael Jordan's like, "I can't find people to push me anymore." Where do you go? And it's just like- Josh: Yeah. Like Tom Brady in the NFL just completely dominating every team that's out there. Yeah. That's right. Russell: Anyway. So not that I'm that level or anything. Josh: Right. Right. Right. Russell: For me it gets harder and harder- Josh: Likewise. Russell: To find things. I have to dig so hard to find the gold. And so I started just looking again at some of these things. And that's when I stumble on this book and just like, every page is gold and it's like I'm lit up again. I'm on fire. Again, I talked about earlier, for me one of my highest values is ROI. What's my return on my investment. So I'm learning these things. I'm growing myself personally, but I'm feeling empty because I'm not sharing them. So it's like, "What's the platform?" That's why I'm like, "Everyone go read this." I need to have this conversation with somebody. So having Dave reading it, everybody can get to read it I'm trying to read so I can get this conversations. Then when you're like, "Hey, do you want to talk about a podcast?" I said, "Yes." You forged some of this stuff because it's in me and if I can't contribute, it seems like I'm wasting it. And so there was this, there was other things. And I started looking more and more. Right now I've got five kids. Three of my kids are teenagers now and teenagers have been way harder than I ever thought or expected. It's weird. Kids are really fulfilling, but man teenagers have been just... It's different for me. I'm feeling like I have to grow to understand myself, but to also understand them. And what I envisioned my kids as teenagers are going to be what it is, has been so much different. I think for me, at times it got me depression, sadness and these things. And I was like, "I shouldn't be depressed this time in my kid's life. This is the greatest time I could be with them but I got to shift my mind." So it was me trying to do some work on myself, to fix myself. Not fix myself, but to get myself in a spot where I could enjoy the season. And then number two is how do I serve them now at this point? Because I envisioned the way I was going to serve my kids was when my dad did. Where I was like, he drove me to wrestling practice and we traveled the world, we worked out super hard because that's what I needed and I assumed that that's what my kids are going to need and it's not. That's not what they want. They want almost the opposite of those things. I'm like, "But I have these gifts. These skills I can give you." They are like, "I don't want them." I'm like, "I can help you start a business." Like, "We don't care." I get them value money because they've always had it. It's like all these things. Every gift that I have, it's like all my unique abilities I want to give my kids, they don't want it. So I'm learning this thing of well, instead of me trying to give my kids these things that I think that were so valuable to me. It's like, I have to sit back and understand what's actually valuable to them, which is so much harder and I'm learning this process. And so as I'm going through this lens of trying to learn these things, understand them, trying to figure them out for myself and I'm stumbling upon things like this and other things. It just got to a point where I was like, "I need to write this book first off for myself." If anyone who's done it, there's this weird thing as you start reading, you start seeing connections. You don't see any other spot. I feel like God opens up insights to you. They're just magical. Like I remember- Josh: When you start writing. Russell: Yeah. Josh: Yeah 100%. Russell: You have to get deep in a topic, you have studied all these things to figure things out. And I remember the first time I really understood this is, after I finished Traffic Secrets, I wanted to reedit DotCom and an Expert Secrets to publish the trilogy. So I went back. I remember reading those books and I was like, "Where did this stuff come from?" I was like, "This is good crap. I don't remember saying this or thinking that." I couldn't remember and- Josh: Interesting. Russell: It's the weirdest thing going back and fighting things. Somehow that was given to me because that was not something that I just intuitively knew. And I feel like for me, I wanted to start the book journey because I'm searching for these answers. The premise of the book is not, "I have all the answers, let me give them to you." I'm in the season where I'm going through it again and let me share through I'm learning on this journey because I'm learning some amazing things. And as I'm sharing as I'm writing them, again these insights keep popping in and it's fascinating. So I'll be doing something, I'll be doing something and I have a doodle. I'm like, "Oh my gosh." I run to Dave I'm like, "Look at this." He's like, "What am I explaining?" He's like, "I never saw it before." New to that. It showed up when I'm in this intense time. And so it's been fun as I'm writing it because these insights are coming at a speed that they don't normally come in. Josh: And I think also- Russell: It's really funny. Josh: I think... Hold that train of thought. I want you to keep going on that. But I've noticed that as well, when it comes to reading books. Reading a book and then applying the book, those are two very different things. I have read Expert Secrets, Dotcom Secrets, Traffic Secrets. And I'm going through, I've not read the hardcover of Expert Secrets. I've only read the soft cover. So right now I'm going through and yes, two nights ago I started it and it's- Russell: You started the hardcover? Josh: Yeah. I'm going through, I'm listening to it and I'm reading it and I'm taking notes- Russell: Get the hardcovers. They're way better than softcovers. Josh: So I'm going through all this stuff. For the last four or five, six months, all I've been doing, I have no front end products of my own. I'm not building anything. All I'm doing is working with big campaigns on the backend. It's like full out stuff. We're doing stuff with cash phones. All these stuff is up and I'm going through and actually inboxed you. I was like, "Dude. People say they've read this book but they haven't." They've read the words, but it's totally different when you actually experience it. And you're watching where it all fits in and you start to see how it all clicks together. So that broke from the reverse angle of when you're writing it and trying to put it on in together is what you're talking about here. Russell: Yes. It's super fascinating. So it's been fun. I'm excited. So my goal, I'm trying to get it done by summer for it to be a launch in March. So if you published traditionally, this publishing schedule is really, really long. So if you are going to read it in March, I'd have to have it done by June. Josh: If we want to read in March of next year, you have to have it done by June this year. Russell: Yeah. Josh: Dang. Russell: So that's where I'm at. So I'm also with the first section of the book and there's four sections. Back then this month I spent the section number one and then that's where I'm at. Josh: Do we get to know what it's called? Do you have a title yet? Russell: I do. I don't want to show a title yet because I don't want someone going and- Josh: Oh, that's true. Russell: "You guys all suck." And buys those domains up and they start like SEOing me and beating me and all that stuff. But it's going to be cool. It's a study of two things. So I'll give you this part. This is the subtitle. So subtitle, something Tony Robbins talks a lot about, but it's the science of achievement and the art of fulfillment. These two things. How do achievers achieve? And then how do you actually get fulfilled? Because it's fascinating. I think- Josh: Interesting. Russell: I see my own life. I achieve something thinking that, "When I achieve this thing, I'm going to be fulfilled and happy and everything." And you achieve the thing and you're like, "I'm not happy." And you figure that achievement and fulfillment, they don't work hand in hand. It's a science of achievement, which that's why science achieves more scrutiny. It's like, "Here's a step-by-step process to get this result." I want to be state champion wrestler here's a step by step process. Boom, got it. I want to be a known American step-by-step process. Got it. I want to start a business, step-by-step. Science. It's not thinking, you just follow a process and you get it. So for me, achievements always come easy. Anything I ever want in my life I've achieved it because there's a science. I figured out. Fulfillment's art, it's different. It's not follow these steps and you become fulfilled. The yin yang of these two things. And it's so fascinating. I've been going deeper into it and seeing the pattern appear over and over and over again, all these different things. And how do you apply it to your life? And there's so many cool things in this book that don't necessarily talk about science of achievement and fulfillment but they're all in here. The patterns in here over and over and over again. So it's pulling it from all these sources and showing it to everybody, that's what the book's going to do and then how to weave it all into aspects of your life anyway. So that's- Josh: One of the things and I'm sure you'll talk about it, but will be the balance of those two things. Because it's early on in my very young career of being 27 years old, but it was all about achieve, achieve, achieve, achieve. And there's always my mom's voice in the back of my head, it's like, "Things won't make you happy." "I know mom." Russell: Yes they will. Josh: Yeah. Yes they will. And then you get there. There have been moments in my life where right now in this moment I am completely fulfilled or I'm completely content and it's just like, I don't know what could make my life better. And it's not when I achieved anything, it's not when I did anything. But in that moment, whenever I take a step back and think about that moment, I have very little drive to go achieve anything more. And there's that balance of how do I stay fulfilled and content while also being driven to go achieve. Because for me and this is something I'd wrestled with and talked to Katie about it. And I'm like, "It's either one or the other. I can't be..." And she's like, "There's always another option. There's never black and white." And so balancing the two of those and understanding that. Like you said, they don't go hand in hand. They're separate things, I think it's really important and something that I'm trying to figure out and learn. Russell: So I got frustrated about all the times I achieve something and I'm so frustrated, why do I not feel how I thought I was going to feel and leads to depression or frustration or whatever. But when you start separating these are two different things I can achieve and I want to achieve, but how do I get fulfilled in the journey or separately from it and you start anyway. It's been fascinating and learning so many cool things and it's going to be fun to start sharing with everybody. I'm going to probably start in my podcasts, start dropping more and more things then getting deeper and deeper. More of the thoughts are going be flushed out. That's the weird thing about writing a book too, is initially I'm like, "Here's what I'm going to write." I write an outline of what the book is going to be and I write chapter number one. I was like, "Now this outline makes sense. You write that one" Chapter two. And so it's like, it's this rebuild, rebuild, rebuild. And by the time it's done, hopefully we'll find out. It'll be the perfect thing that's like, here's the frameworks you need. And for example, this whole concept here, there's a chapter that's going to be taking the frameworks from this book and this is going to be the chapter walking people through this concept of faith and fear. This doodle is a rough draft. I just tell you I sent this to you today. I'm like, "This is not the perfect doodle. I saw it. I'm not going to post it down below yet because this is partially done." It's going to be perfect by the time the book's done. I'm still thinking through and trying to get it right. And making it a simple form where I can understand it and hopefully it makes it easy for people to apply. But anyway, it's pretty cool. I think everyone should read a book. I think everybody listening should set that as a goal because when you do, just the act of writing the book will change your board. And I think anyone will understand. And when somebody asks, "What are you doing?" You're like, "I'm writing a book." Josh: That sounds very cool. Russell: There's no much cooler than that. Josh: Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Okay. I know you have a hard cutoff, so I want to be respectful of that here. So I want to end with one question here and that is specifically about reading books. It's interesting. I'm pretty involved in the ClickFunnels world. Those are my people as well too. And so those are the people that follow me and that I interact with and I talk to a lot and it's always interesting when I talk to people about reading versus action. And some people have this... I feel like there's weird thought that if you're a reader, you're not an action taker, which I'm like, "That's not true. That's not how that works." But anyway, for you, if you are early on in your career, early on in you journey of building your business and your funnels and putting everything together. Do you recommend? Going back and thinking of your life, were you a big reader early on? Did you do a lot of reading or were you more action taking and looking back, would you recommend people read more, take more action? What's that balance? Because it's very easy. I know for me, I'm making time to read and then that's all I want to do. I'm like, "This is amazing." And then I'll take action. And so what's that Balance there? And what do you recommend as far as reading versus action? Russell: It's tough because some people read just because you get fulfillment or like there's- Josh: There's a good feeling that comes with reading. Russell: Comes with reading. Josh: For sure. Russell: So- Josh: It's a fake sense of accomplishment. Russell: Yes. So this is my belief. I remember when I first got started, I was reading a lot, I was listening, I was going to seminars. I remember at first it always frustrated because I was learning all this stuff and I was getting it but I had nowhere to use it and I was trying to use it all. That's why I think I launched... I can't remember. A couple of funnels by measure. It was like a 106, 116 or something funnels I launched before ClickFunnels. And that's because every idea that came to me, I was like, "I have to create something." I create this and I create this. I was creating funnel and funnel and coaching program. I joined Dan Kennedy's mastermind and they talked about, "You should have mastermind groups." So at the event I launched a mastermind group. I'm like, "You should have phone sales." We started phone sales and "You should be doing seminars." We launched a seminar. Every idea that came, I launched it. But man, I got a point where I was drowning. Because we had 8,000 things we're doing and nothing really worked. And I remember always feeling guilty because these ideas are coming to me. I'm thinking, "These are gifts from God. These are inspiration. I need to have these things." And it wasn't until... I don't remember when. But somewhere down the line, I realized that, "I don't actually have to take all these different things and do them, but I can understand them." Because I enjoy learning, understanding. So I would take them into my mind and literally put them on a shelf. I remember there's this Dan Kennedy on how to do high ticket, air exclusive program. So when we were listening to it, there's talking about franchise and this. All of a sudden, this is amazing. So I was taking it because I enjoyed the learning of it. And then I was like, "I'm not doing this right now." I'm so stretched thin, but I enjoyed the learning. So I'm flying an airplane, listening to this audio book or whatever. If I'm going to put it over here, I'm just categorizing and I put it over here in my brain. Like, "Hey. If I ever wanted to go back and do that, I know where it's at or at least put over here." So I started learning because I enjoyed learning but I didn't have to implement everything. And I've put things in these different spots. At the same time I had a very clear vision. This is definitive purpose. I had a vision. So I'm trying to execute on something I'm trying to do. So as I'm learning, when something came that crossed my mind I was like, "That's the next step. I could grab it and plug it in and I could use it." If it didn't. I'm like, "That's awesome. Put it right here. Someday I'm going to use that in future." And I talked to… James Friel and I talked about because he has a Trello board. He calls his shiny penny Trello board where anytime you have a great idea- Josh: Yeah. I have one of those. Russell: Instead of trying to implement, he puts it on his Trello boards. Keeps your ideas. I think for most entrepreneurs, every idea is like your baby, like "This is the greatest idea of all time." Josh: Yeah. I have a Trello board called Josh's brain. Russell: Oh awesome. This pre Trello because I remember getting a note card. I had three by five note cards and when I had the ideas, I put them in there, I put them there. And somebody I'm going to come back to this and I get ideas and put them there. I kept putting them there either in a note card or somewhere else. And it's crazy. And I fast forward. Man, I think it's 19 or 20 years, I'm doing this now. So whatever it is. Almost two decades. And it's really cool because when I coach people now and this is my inner circle so I have people in here I'm coaching and someone would appear on stage and they're stuck with a problem and they're frustrated. They're like, "I don't want to do this thing." And all of a sudden out of the back of my mind pops up this thing and it comes into my- Josh: Exactly. Russell: I have this thing. I'm like, "Oh my gosh. Where did that come from?" It's because I learned it. Because I read this book here, I saw this thing over here and all these things. And so I think a lot of times we have to understand that learning is fun. So enjoy it. Don't be like, "I'm not going to read because..." Reading is awesome. Read, learn, do those things, but also understand, what is your mission? Stephen Larson talked about this two funnel hiking lives ago. He called it just-in-time learning. It seems like if you are going to read the book you need... I agree with that except for this is a better pastime than watching movies. So let's read, let's study. But having your path, this is my goal, this is where I'm going to go. If you join my coaching program, we're going to talk about what's the first funnel. That's what we focus on. Don't do anything else, just focus on that. You can learn other things, but categorize them or wait until you're ready. And then as you get pieces right. I need that, I need that and figure out the next steps. I think that's how I would do the yin yang of both of those. Because I'm the same way. I'm learning so many things or study things or I find things are awesome that I'm not going to use but someday there'll be someone I come upon that that nugget is going to be the thing that unlocks something for them and they're going to super grateful. So, anyway. Josh: All right. Well man, thank you. I really appreciate you taking the time to do this. This is so much fun. We could talk for hours, but we do have to wrap it up there. We've got a little something to get to, so thank you man. I appreciate it. Russell: No worries. And hopefully all you guys, two things I want to say. Number one, I'd highly recommend reading this book and read through the lens of this. The first time I didn't know where I was going. So I was all over the place and just freaking out. But look at the lens of Faith and Fear of, I don't want to be a drifter. I want to be somebody spiritually, mentally, and physically free. Look at that and start looking at everything he talks about from this lens and just look at it as protections of you that will be there to get to the spot where you're learn 2% or how to keep yourself from becoming a drifter or if you are drifter shift yourself back. And looking at this, because it's this guide book of all the ways that the devil uses to shift you around. And when you're aware of it, man, it makes it so much more powerful. Josh: And- Russell: This is huge. Josh: The thing that I would say we didn't have time to get to it, but I would say too is understand that it's not... If you're religious, understand that there's probably going to be some things that the devil is like, "You don't need God, you don't need me." Some of the things that are going to be in there, like Russell said, 97% is good, 3% is bad. Don't let that prevent you from understanding the value and the power that's in this book because there is so much good stuff in this. And any single time that I've ever had success at anything when I look back, it follows very closely to the principles that were taught here, so anyway. Russell: That's awesome. And then wait until next March to buy my book. Josh: And I will be the number one affiliate. So hopefully you all can be number two, three, four. That's cool. That's going to be super, super cool. So Russell, thank you so much, man. I appreciate it. Love to do it again for The Book of Mormon or something like that and all right. All right guys, that's it. Russell: Thanks everyone. Josh: As always, hustle, hustle. God bless. Don't be afraid to think different because those of us who think different are going to be the ones who change the world. I love you all. See you soon. Russell: Bye everybody. Josh: See you. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to the second part of a special three episode series! On this episode, Russell and Josh talk about their biggest “take-aways” from the book. Russell talks about a difficult time when Clickfunnels was down and instead of choosing fear and running from the problem, he chose to have faith in his business and fight to make it better. Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ---Transcript--- Russell Brunson: What's up, everybody. This is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets podcast. I hope you enjoyed the first part of my interview with Josh Forti, on Outwitting the Devil. This episode, I'm excited, because we're going to go a little bit deeper. We're going to start talking about some of my stories, and practical applications of how I was able to use this in my past. This story I tell, I wasn't expecting to tell this. I didn't know where he was going to go with the interview questions. We got a little emotional, but I think it was good. So I'm excited to share it with you. I'm a little nervous, but a little excited at the same time. So with that said, we're going to cue up the theme song. When we come back you can listen to episode number two, from the Josh Forti interview, about Outwitting the Devil. Josh Forti: I had a very definitive takeaway from the book. You could read a million times, and keep getting gold nuggets, but what was the thing that stuck out to you, that was the most powerful of it? That caused you to literally go on Instagram, be like, "Yo, everybody read this book right now." Russell: Everyone's in different spots, so I think it's good to read this book for everyone to kind of see where you fit. Anyway, maybe I have a distorted view of myself, but I feel like I'm somebody who acts in definitive purpose. I feel like I act in faith, most of the times. So, I feel like I'm on the side. So the thing that was so powerful for me, if you look in the middle of my thing, there's two columns here, was he started saying, he asked, he's like, "When someone uses definitive purpose, does that mean they're free from you?" He's like, "No." He's like, "As soon as they're using definitive purpose." And he's like, "These are the tools I use to try to get them to become drifters." And I started looking at the list of things he uses to get them to become drifters. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, I see those patterns in my life. I see the things that are pulling me to that side as well." And it became this warning for me of like, "Okay, these are the things to protect yourself from." Because, we're not free, it's not like, I do good things therefore I'm to be good forever. It's like, no, the entire time he's trying to get you to the other side. And so for me, it was interesting. You can see some of these ones I list up here, like the temptations he uses to get someone who is free, to become a drifter. So number one, was flattery. And it was interesting, he said that the way he uses flattery, is in women, he uses vanity, and in men, he uses egotism. And I've seen that so many times in my own personal life, where with your ego and you start reading your own bio, you drink your own Kool-Aid, and you're like, "I'm amazing." And as soon as you do that, it starts shifting you from this state of freedom, to drifters. And I've seen... I've got personal friends who have let ego destroy their families, destroy their businesses, destroy their lives. And I always have fear of that, and I see myself slipping into that often. It's definitely a temptation, it's one of the things for me, that pulls me in, I'm trying to be careful of. It's funny, people always tell me, like, "I feel like you're one of the few guys in the industry that doesn't have a big ego." I'm like, "I have a huge ego." I try to be aware of it. I'm grateful for my wife. One of my buddies told me, he's like, "It wasn't for Colette." He's like, "You'd have the biggest head in the world." She's the one that keeps me focused. Josh: I feel like that's Leo with me too, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. Russell: But I think it was interesting for man, for egotism, and women, he said vanity, which is interesting too. So those are two things there. Next was failure, and he talked about failure from both sides. He said that failure can be something that actually serves you, because you fail, you see what's wrong and you read adjust, but some people go through failure, and then they slip to like, "Okay, this didn't work," and they're out. And you see that a lot. Josh: Well, and that's even here, it's learning from adversity. That's one of the key things, how do you use failure? If you're going to be a drifter, you're going to be like, "Failure. Ew yuck. I'm never going to do it again." versus a successful person. Russell: You see people all the time that fail, are like, "Oh, I tried the thing, and it didn't actually work." It's like, "Okay. It worked for 800 other people, but it didn't work for you. Maybe it was you, maybe the approach was..." It's so interesting where it's like, if... It comes back to, if you've read Jocko's book. Josh: What's Jocko's book? Extreme Ownership. Yeah. Russell: That's the thing, the failure happens, and it's like, "Oh, I going to blame it on them." Boom. Instantly you're a drifter. But if you're like, "It was me, I did it wrong. What am I going to change?" The extreme ownership, that's the shift from failure. Whereas you take extreme ownership, boom, you're staying over here, but, if you don't... And I have a problem all the time. I think something that's happened to my team, or whatever, and I want to point the finger, and it's like, "But I'm the leader of the team." But it's so much easier to point out, than point back in. And so for me, that was the one. Again, another one I noticed, when I had my failures, did I point out or in? Because if I point out, I'm slipping into drifting. Propaganda, bribes, food, sex, all these different things he was using. The food one was interesting, he was talking about, he's like, "When men and women become rich, and they have all these things, I get them through food, when they start eating and get gluttonous. And all of sudden their body gets not healthy, and then it's harder to move." And I'm sure you felt that, when you're not eating healthy, your mind gets cloudy, and all these things, it's very easy to become a drifter. And so, it's just all these tools he's using to try to get you to shift from one another. Those things were... In my time in my life right now, where I was just like, "Okay, cool. I've got walls, I can start protecting myself up. I can become more aware of it." When you're aware of something, it's so much easier to fight it, as opposed to when… Josh: Yeah. And when you're successful too, everything's convenient. And that's one of the things that he brought up in the book too. I noticed in my life, I was thinking back to when I first started, I was like, "Man, I was sleeping on my buddy's couch." For three months, and I worked my butt off, and everything like that. I'm like, "Why do I lack that drive sometimes?" Like, "Why don't I have that anymore?" It's like, "Because life is convenient." Because if I sleep until eight o'clock, or if I don't perform today, my life doesn't change at all. But back then, it did. And so when things become convenient, it's super easy to come back into that drifter mode. Russell: Yeah. A hundred percent. And that's one of the hardest thing. I think, at least for me, when I was growing up, I always thought there's a point where you made it. In fact, I remember this one time, my business was doing well at the time, we had a bunch of employees. I remember hiring this guy to come consult me on something, and he came out, and he's looking at all this stuff. And he's like, "So tell me, when was he felt like... When did you know you made it?" And I was like, "Oh, I..." I'm still freaking out. I don't feel like I made it. And I think, in my life, I always thought there's going to be a point where I'm like, "I made it, or figured the thing out." Or whatever, but I never got there. I feel like the second I do, that's when it's going to start... That's the thing. And so, I think being more aware of that, just like, this is a constant thing and that's okay, but, it's a constant between God and Satan, there's this constant... Every moment is like, each of them are fighting for. It's like, if you give up here, then you slip back over to there. You can't just... There's no neutral ground. Josh: So, I just want to talk about that, because I think one of the biggest... Well, the number one thing, like you said, of a non drifter, is the definitive purpose. And I have noticed that in my life, even recently... Over the past year, year and a half, I've been working with Katie Richardson, you know that, just really getting clear on what the next steps of things are. And my definitive purpose, if you will, when I first started my entrepreneurship journey, was this, "I just don't want to be poor anymore." I go like, "My definitive purpose is to not worry about money, and to get out of debt, and just be free. Then be able to make decisions or whatever." And then I got there, and then there was this next definitive purpose. And they were incremental, almost goals, but not like this overwhelming definitive purpose. And so, going through the process of that, of course, with my brother dying, and that whole shattering of everything. Like for you, you've built ClickFunnels, you have a wildly successful company and people look up to you, and are like, "Oh my gosh, Russell, you're on top of the world. You're amazing. You've made it." At now, you've just said, "Hey, I don't feel like I've made it yet. I still feel like I have a long way to go." How do you... A, has your purpose changed since you started, compared to where you're at now? And B, how do you continue to remind yourself of that purpose? Or how do you find that purpose? When you could do nothing for the rest of your life, and be totally fine. How do you find purpose in that? Russell: I'd be a drifter at that point. Josh: Right, you wouldn't be a drifter. I can just see Russell sitting on the beach. No, actually, I can't even imagine what that would look like, for Russell on the beach for long periods of time. But, what would that look like for you? Or, how do you find that purpose? Russell: So, you asked about if my purpose has changed. So I would say, in my mind, it's two things. There's the people that I've been called to serve has not changed, I feel like I've been called to serve entrepreneurs. Those are my people, those are the people that I'm here... And so for me, it's like, what are all the ways I can help them? So, initially it was like, "Do seminars, write books." That was the first thing, and then it's like, "Oh, we're going to build software." And then it's like, "Oh, we're doing events." And, we kept adding these things on. And so, that was the thing. And so my purpose was like, what are all the things I can do to help an entrepreneur to be more successful? That's my vision. That's my mission. That's my thing. And I feel like now that, again, after I finished the three books, I was like, I feel like that, again, that the trilogy, that's what people need. And then we have Funnel Hacking Live, that's amazing. We have these things in place, all the things there are... they're there. And I think there's things, where there's big updates, we have to company click funnels. There're other things we do to make things better, but for me, it's like, there's not a lot more, again, it's not like I'm going to come out with some magic funnel, I'm like, "God, it changes everything again." Like, it's there. Right? So for me, it's like, "Okay, I'm still called to serve these people. What's the next level of success? What's the next thing I need to do?" And for me, I started looking, like what were the things that I struggled with? And so much of it was not... It was like, I didn't have the tools, I didn't have the information, which is why the last two decades has been focused on that. But, the next thing was like, I had to become someone different, who did I have to become to be successful? I look at so many entrepreneurs who are coming into my world, these people that I'm called to serve, and giving them funnels. Man, they don't believe in themselves, they have horrible identities. They're choosing fear over faith, every single time, and they're not having success. And so, for me, it's like, "Hey, I still have the same people." So-called same.. served the same people. But, what am I... What's the next thing I need to help them with? And if you just look at my book trilogy, the first one was dotcom secrets. It's like, "They need to understand funnels." That was the book. And it was like, "Hey, now I understand funnels." And now everyone's like, "I'm building funnels." But then their funnels weren't working, they weren't converting. And I'm like, "Oh, they don't know how to tell stories, right copy, or..." So, Expert Secrets, I'm like, "Expert Secrets." It's like, "Okay, now they understand that." And I thought I was done. And then I'm like, "Okay. Some people have these funnels that have really good copy, but Facebook shut down their account and they're screwed, or they have no traffic, or whatever." And I'm like, "Oh, my people in the traffic." So, I'm getting traffic, and that was Traffic Secrets book. And so for me, the last year, year and a half, especially, as you know, we've been in this insane environment of insanity… Josh: How do you even describe it? Russell: And I'm watching these people I've been called to serve, melting down, choosing fear in every single direction, over, and over, and over, and over again. I'm seen people who don't have an identity, they don't have beliefs, they don't have rules, they don't have values. And I have all these things they need to actually have the structure, to implement. It is what we talked about. And that's why I started geeking back to this personal moments, and partially because it's for myself, because I'm trying to protect myself and strengthen myself. But for me, Hill doesn't really go deep on anything. If you look at my disc profile, one of my things is I have very, very high... my highest value is ROI. If I don't see return on investment on something, I can't do. That's why I struggled in school, that's why I struggled with so many things. That's why when I started trying to read scriptures again, I struggled with it, until I started a podcast, because now there's return on my investment. I'm going to learn this thing, but I'm going to give it to somebody else. And there's my return on investment, now I can do it, and I feel fulfilled by it. Josh: Which by the way, I'm going to plug, podcast number three is going to be about that. Russell: And the same thing here. So, I started going back through, started reading these things. And for a while it was tough, because I'm reading these things, and for me it's like, what's the return on investment? It's good for me, but, ah, I've been called to serve. It's not just... Again, I talk about this in the new book, we'll talk about it a minute. But in Expert Secrets I talk about growth and contribution. I love growth, because good for me, but I thrive on the contribution. It's me sharing that gets me excited. So I was going through these things, and that's when, probably three or four months ago, is when I was like, "Hey, I'm learning all these principles, these things, I'm doodling all this stuff." I need to have something I'm putting it towards, or else I'm not going to be able to continue the momentum I need to keep doing this, and keep figuring out these things. And so, that's why I started, as you know, on my fourth book, which is not a marketing book. Josh: Yeah. I want to talk about that. Okay. I really do want to go there. However, there's one question I want to ask you first, I want to pull back another layer of Russell, that people... I don't know. Maybe, you've told this story before. I don't know. I don't even know what the story is, I'm about to ask you. So, my number one takeaway from the book, was how much fear controls people. That was my number one thing. And, for me, and this has come through a tremendous amount of mental work, and tremendous amount of personal identity work, over the course of the past 12 to 16 months, of just tears and just facing my own fears and insecurities, and bringing them to light and working through. But, there's not a whole lot of things I'm afraid of. There're very few things where I'm looking at them, I'm like, "Oh my gosh." I just do me, and whatever. Like criticism, it doesn't really bother me, or whatever. But, there's certain instances that come up where I'm like, "Ooh, I'm afraid of failure in that specific scenario, for that specific thing." And I'd be curious to know, for you, as you built ClickFunnels, I'm sure there were moments of fear. And I'm sure there were moments, when this side of things started to creep in, but you worked through that. And so, I'd be curious to know, what was one of the biggest times when you were building ClickFunnels, that you were afraid? And how did you work through that? What's that story? Russell: Oh man. Josh: Because I feel like we hear the marketing version of it. Russell: The highlight reels. Josh: We do, right? And they serve a very specific purpose. And I always laugh when people want to criticize, like, "Russell only tells this part of the story, or whatever" I'm like, "Do you understand why he's doing that?" Like, "Do you understand it's fitting into... It's at Funnel Hacking Live, or it's at this, or whatever." I'm like, "There's a purpose for that." It's not like he's trying to do that, but I want to know the other side of it. I want to know the behind the scenes of, what was that moment where you're like, "This is not worth it. I'm going to shut it all down. Or I'm afraid that I'm not going to be able..." I don't know what the story is. Russell: Yeah, definitely for me, the part that was the hardest, it was the first year of ClickFunnels, we just launched it. And I remember, because when Todd built it he told me, he was like... And in my head, I thought we're going to get 10,000 members month one, that was in my head. And Todd was like, "Okay, well, just so you know, as soon it past 10,000 members, the way I coded it, it's going to have to be different." And I was like, "I don't know that means, but I'm going to get 10,000 members. Right?" So we go and launch it, we don't get 10,000 members, kind of depressed, but we started pursuing this thing, start working towards it. And within about a year we got 10,000 members. And during that time, ClickFunnels started doing weird things, where it would just go down for five minutes, and be back, like, "What just happened?" And like, "Oh, some blah, blah, blah, techie thing happened." And yeah, so they fixed it, like, "Hey, good." And then it goes down, this time it's down 15 minutes, and 15 minutes down.... It's funny, because one minute I'm everyone's hero, they're like, "We love you, Russell. You made our lives so much easier making money." I'm getting the messages, and just feeling the ego, and all the things they're just like... This is amazing. And then it goes down, and I want you to understand, when ClickFunnels would go down, it wasn't like, "Hey, man, it's down." It was like, "I want to kill you." Like, "You owe me $2,000 in ads for my 15 minute window that it's down." Like, "I'm going to sue you." Like death threats, I went from the hero of the day, to, "I want to kill you." And messages coming in are like... And I'm getting things, and Todd's not getting them, because no one knows... He's kind of behind the scenes, and I'm just like, you want to kill me? They're that angry? They want to sue me, they want all these things. And then, publicly posting everywhere, how horrible and how bad.... And the second someone slips, everyone wants to jump up and start throwing daggers at them, it's insane. I seen it happen to so many people. I have friends who I've seen it happen to recently, where it's like, everyone loves until they do something, and then it's just like everyone wants to pounce on- Josh: And half the time, it's not even their fault. Russell: It's crazy, if that's happening. And so, it's happening, we get back up, and then, "Is this is going to work good?" Like, "Yeah, fine." I'm like, "Okay. It's going to be good." So then we plan on that, and then again, it would go good for two, three weeks, then something happened, and it just kept happening. And the longer we go, more members happened, it would more often, it would happen longer. And, it was just horrible. Because I remember one time I was speaking at a Dan... GKC event. And I'm in the hotel room, we just got there, Dave and I were there, we're getting everything ready. And it goes down, we're down for like 30 minutes. I'm freaking out. I'm supposed to be on stage in 30 minutes, or like an hour or something, and it's down, and I messaging and I remember voxing Todd, I'm like, "Hey, it's down again." He messaged back all nice like, "Oh yeah." Like anyways, he was just like, he's like, "Oh yeah, it's down again. We'll work on it." So I messaged back, I was like, "This is happening a lot. Are you sure we're okay? You seem a little nice and calm, you okay?" It's funny, because Todd's super respectful, he doesn't ever swear around me or anything. And he messaged back, and I've never heard Todd scared before. And he messaged back, and he was... I won't repeat what he said, but it was just like, what he said and how he said it, was just like, we're screwed. He said it four or five times in a row, and then he ended. And I was just like- Josh: And you're about to go on stage? Russell: Yeah, and I was like… Josh: Oh my gosh. Russell: And I was just freaking out. I'm like, "I'm about to go on stage, and try and convinced all this audience that I've got the greatest thing in the world. And my partner who built it, is freaking out, and doesn't know how to stabilize this thing. And he's..." I remember just being sick to my stomach, scared, all these fears, all the anxiety, all the inadequacy, all those things. And I remember I'm just freaking out, and then we got it back up, and then Dave's like, "Hey, you're on in like 10 minutes." I'm like, "Oh." So, I do my things, run downstairs and then come on stage. And I was just in my head, and my mind, and my body just freaking out. And, do the presentation, I know the presentation, even if I'm scared, it's going to come out pretty similar, it converted well, people bought it, everyone's excited. I remember afterwards, it was weird, this is one of those weird things, I don't even know who it was. If you're listening, she messaged me, some dude lingered afterwards and he's like, "Um, you okay?" I'm like, "Yeah. Fine. How's it going?" And he's like a chiropractor, but like a “woo-woo” one, were they do energy stuff. And he's like, "Can I adjust you?" And I'm like, "That's weird." He's like, "No, I don't really do normal adjusting, it's this other weird kind." And I was like, "I don't know what's happening. This guy is creeping me." But for some reason, like, "Sure. Whatever." So he takes me in this other room, he starts doing adjusting, he's doing the muscle testing, and all sorts of stuff on me, which I- Josh: Just some random dude? Russell: Yeah. I'd never had that happen before, he was attending the event, so he was there. Josh: Right. Russell: And it was weird, because he starts... He's just like, "You have all this tension here, here, all these things." And he's trying to figure out why. And so, eventually, and again, some people think that that's crazy. You think that's crazy? Nowadays, I don't know, Because- Josh: No. I don't think it's crazy. Russell: Anyway. It's interesting. But, he's doing this muscle testing, and he muscle tests, and he's like, "The thing that you're experiencing right now inside your body, is a reflection of something that happened." I can't remember, it was like 3.6 years ago, or something like that. He's like, "What happened three and a half ago?" "I have no idea." I couldn't remember. And all of a sudden I was like, "Oh my gosh, that was the last time my company collapsed." And we had to... We didn't go through bankruptcy, but had to fire almost a hundred people. We had to shut everything down. It was all this stuff. And he's like, "Your body's experiencing the same things right now, that you experienced at that moment. And that's this tension and these things." Josh: Oh my gosh. Russell: It was crazy. And he did all this stuff to try to release it, and everything. But also I realized, it's like, oh my gosh. My biggest thing is, I built this thing up, people think I'm a hero again, right now. And I remember what happened three and a half years ago, when I lost everything and how much pain, and how much... All these things, the poverty I got, the criticism I got, the ill health I got, the loss of love I got, friends, family, coworkers walking out on me. I wanted to die. I'm over the edge. All my greatest fears came back in that moment, and I'm in this spot, and I don't know how to fix it, because I can't code. I go to college and learn how to code? I don't what to do. Josh: That's the worst, oh man. Russell: The next week… Josh: It's out of your hands. Russell: We're flying to London, to speak in London. They invited my family to come to me. So, my wife and kids were all flying in London, and I told parts of this story before, but we're in the air, everything's good. The kids are having so much fun, they're flying. And we land, we get to London, and there's... In your phones, the chips don't work, so you have to- Josh: Yeah. You got to swap them. Russell: So we're driving around, and finally get our chips in there, and as soon as it does, all of a sudden, my phone was just like... And I don't know what it is, so I'm looking, and there's text messages, there's instant messages, there's voxers, there's all these things, hundreds, I'm not exaggerating, people are like, "A hundred's, probably like 10." No, hundreds and hundreds on every platform, where people sending me death threats, sending me they want to kill me, send me the hate me, send me I'm screwing them over, sending me all that... just this stuff, and I'm looking at my phone, and I'm just like, "I don't even know what happen." So I'm finally trying to get Todd, I got ahold of him, and he's like, "Yeah, we're down. We've been down for four or five hours." He's like, "If we're able to get it back up." And all I remember him saying, if, and not when, and I was just like- Josh: And you're in London. Russell: With my family. Josh: About to speak. Russell: And so, I don't even know. I went back to the hotel room, and we had two hotels conjoining for the kids. I was like, "Hey, I'm going to go in this room for a minute." And I shut the door, and I'm just like, I don't know what to do. We're down. I don't know if we're getting it back up. So, to speak the next day to talk about click funnels. And it was one of the things where I was just in so much fear, I wanted to hide. I just wanted to not say anything. I just wanted to be quiet. Josh: Yeah. Especially as an introvert. Russell: Yeah. Especially and introvert who's got literally hundreds of people telling me how much they hate me. And, I don't know want to do. And this one of those moments where it's just like, the fear and the faith, I wanted to go to fear. That sounds so nice, just to hide and... But I was like, I can't, because this is my life. This is all this stuff we've worked for, for so long. And, in that moment I had impression of, you should go live on Facebook. I'm like, "I don't want to live on Facebook." They're like, "You have to. You have to tell people what's happening." I was like, "What kind of CEO, in the middle of this crash, gets online and like, Hey, our company's down." And put on the happy face, like, "It's okay, because... let me blame the servers." I had a million people I could blame, because it was... Josh: It's not your fault Russell. It's never your fault, right? Russell: So, finally, I was like, "All right." So I just, I told the kids, "I'm going to be on in 15 minutes." So I clicked go, and all of a sudden I'm live. And of course, because it's live, everybody pops in, because they're trying to figure out... Because they all want to kill me. Like, "Russell's here, this is our time." And first it popped up, you start seeing the comments, like, "You're effing killed... You killed my business." Like all these things, and just like, "You owe me, how much money." Like all these things, and I'm just like, "Okay." And instead of doing what I wanted to do, which was blame, point to other people. I was like, "I'm pissed." And I was like, "This is not okay." Like, "My business is down, your business is down. You trusted me. You trusted us. We are not doing this right. This is not acceptable." I'm not like... And I tried my best. In fact, the video's still live, it's on... If you go to my Facebook page, and go to videos and scroll down to year one of click funnels, the video's still live there. Josh: That's crazy. Russell: And, basically I just tried… Josh: Somebody go find it and post in the comments. Seriously. I'd love to see it. Russell: Yeah. And I just posted it, I can't remember if I posted in the ClickFunnels group, or maybe it was in my... Anyway, I remember I found a little while ago to look at it again, I remember watching it, I was just like, "Whoa, that sucked." But I did my best, try to take that. Definitive purposes, this is not okay, this is what we're trying to do. I'm just going to take faith. And it was crazy, because I remember we posted that, while Todd and the team was working their butts off. And luckily through so many miracles, they got everything back up. We had a backup from right, for a hit. We didn't lose anything, other than the eight hours we were down. And we expected the next day that half our members would cancel, everything's going to be gone. And it was crazy how by taking the action of faith, people came in, and instead of being upset, they're like, "You know what, thank you. Thank you for not hiding. Thank you for telling us you're upset. Thank you for understanding this is not acceptable, and not trying to be like, oh, thanks for taking responsibility. And over the next week, we didn't see any... It wasn't like, signups and cancellation, we watched those two numbers all the time, it wasn't a big drop. It was just like... It didn't change. And, after that we made changes, we figured things out, we got things solid and looking stable. And that was the last time we went down for more than a little blip here or there. But that was probably the biggest thing, and I remember just being... Anyway. Josh: That's crazy. Well, I think, that comes back to having a definitive purpose, because you had a goal, you were all in. Because, without that, you throw in the towel, and you say this isn't worth it. If you are not crystal, crystal clear, or at least very, very emotionally attached to that outcome, or to that goal of that definitive purpose of where you're at, you should shut everything down there, and you walk. That's crazy. I've never heard that story before. Russell: I'm sweating reliving it. Thanks for that. Josh: No problem. I'm sure the audience loved it though. Russell: Anyway, it was a scary, scary time in between those two things happening back to back. And like I said, and then we started working towards it, and man, Todd and Ryan, and all the people on our team who went and who figured out the problems, and solidified things, and brought in the right people. It's crazy, because people with click funnels are like, "You should know how to not go down." It's like, "You don't understand. At that point, we went from a bunch of entrepreneurs trying to make something, to like, at that point we were like the 300th most visited website in the world." And there's not many people on this planet who know how to handle the database architecture behind that. We didn't know how to do it, and so we're trying to find people. We literally hired people who, they're charging 10 grand an hour to do database administration. So, you hire them, like, "Okay, here's 20 grand. You get two hours to look." So they log in and look around, like, "Here's all the mistakes." And then they go back, and go try to fix them. Then like, "Hey, here's another 10 grand, another hour." Like that's the people who like ran eBay and Amazon. Those are people you have to hire to come and look at these problems, because they're not problems that most people deal with. And if you think about it, we tell you we have 120,000 members, that's true. That's 120,000 people's websites, most of them more than one, most of them 10, 20, 50, a hundred. There's... I don't know, quarter million, half a million websites running all on our servers. No one knows that stuff. Josh: Brad, how many do we have? How many? Brad's over here they already probably got 50, just there. No, we'll run it through. Russell: These are problems, not normal problems most people know how to solve. We don't know how to solve them. So it's like, "How do we do that?" Every level there's new level of stress and problems, and things that they keep coming up, that you just... If you don't have that definitive purpose, and that dream, and that vision, that thing, there's so many things pulling you off the path. There's a million things trying to pull you to become a drifter, from flattery, to failure, to propaganda, bribes, to... All these things are trying to do that, the world's stacked against you. In fact, according the book, 98% of people are there. Josh: Yeah 98%. That's crazy. Russell: So, first off, it comes back to, if you want to shift yourself back, the very first thing is, come back to very first questions, like, "Am I doing this decision based on faith or fear?" That's the transition point, it's not like, "Okay I got to fix all this crap. And I got to..." No, it's like, come back to the very beginning, and if you start shifting your decision making process, to like, "I'm scared." You can still be scared, you still have fear. I still have fear all the time, I'm sure you do too. I'm like, "Do I do that?" But, you don't act in fear, you act in faith. Like, "Okay, I could lose everything, I could be criticized. I could, I could, I could..." But, this is my definitive purpose, this is my vision, this is where I have to go. Therefore, I will act in faith, regardless of these things that they happen. I have to be okay with the worst case scenario. I have to be okay, that if I screw up people are going criticize me, or else I'm not going to be able to move forward in faith. And that's the conundrum. That's where you have to get thick skin, and be okay with these things. And I think for me, I've tried it, I spend time consciously thinking about each of these. Like you talked about death, you don't fear death, for me, for a big part of my life I did fear death. And there's parts of me... I'm thinking about it today, if I was to die, I wouldn't be scared of death, I'd be scared of my kids not having a dad. But, the thing, the belief that I have, and the new book goes deep into these kinds of things, that I'm real excited to share. But, my belief about death, we have to have beliefs, and values, and rules around all these kind of things. But my belief about death is, I strongly, strongly, strongly believe that none of us will live on this planet one second longer or shorter than God wants us to. I believe that to my core soul. So, because I'm okay with that... Because, it's not like all of a sudden accidentally I'm going to catch something and I'm going to die, and then God's like, "Oh crap, I missed that one." That's not going to happen. There's plans, there's purpose, there's things that are happening, and I have that as a belief. Maybe it's not true, but it's my belief. Therefore, because I believe that, I'm not scared of death. If it happens, that sucks, and be horrible for my kids, but, again, it's part of the plan, therefore I'm not afraid of death, because of that. Josh: Yeah. And I had never really even thought about death, until my brother obviously passed away. Russell: You came face to face with it… Josh: Yeah. Like, "Holy cow. Freak accident, helicopter crash, over in Kenya." It's like, "What the heck?" And, I flew around the world trying to figure out what I believe, and what I thought. And the conclusion, I don't know if it's a conclusion, but the belief that I have about death, is I'm like, "All right, when I die, that's when my life starts." I'm like, "Okay, cool." Like I'm, this is what I say? It's a whisper in the wind, like it's a flash in the pan. Life is, we're here, and we're given these choices. And God's like, "All right, here, you got your 80 or 90 years on life. And you get a choice, you can either choose to accept me, or reject me." And then eternity starts, or doesn't start, it always is. For me, I'm like, "Sweet." And coupled with, or partnered with, what you said of like, "I don't think God makes mistakes." So if I die, even if it's a dumb, stupid decision that I made that led to that, it's not like God didn't factor in my stupidity. And so, because I know that, it's confidence. Yeah. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to the first part of a special three episode series! On this episode, Russell and Josh start talking about the book “Outwitting The Devil” by Napoleon Hill. They discuss some of the background of how this book was published, and then go into detail about the premise and the lessons that it teaches. Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ---Transcript--- What's up, everybody? This is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets podcast. So I told you guys a couple episodes ago, I told you about one of my new favorite books, which is Outwitting the Devil by Napoleon Hill. I told you a little bit about the book and why you should read it. I told you I was doing a podcast interview with Josh Forti where he was going to ask me a bunch of questions about the book. We did that and it was really, really fun, and so I'm going to actually... I want to stream that interview to you guys over the next three episodes here on the podcast, and it's fun. The interview went way different than I thought it was going to go, and so I think you're going to enjoy it. The first part we talked about the book and the story behind it, and the breaking down the doodle and explanation, and the difference between faith and fear, some of the basic stuff. The second episode, we start talking about my biggest takeaways from the book and why personal development is important, and then Josh start asking questions about a time in my life when I used faith over fear and stuff like that. The story that came out, most people probably haven't heard this about ClickFunnels crashing and a bunch of other stuff, and so that episode two is going to be really fun for you guys. I'm excited, and episode number three is about my next book, so that was what the interview was about. It was really fun. It was a little over an hour long, and so we decided to break it up into three episodes for you guys, and so that's the game plan. So this is episode one of The Outwitting the Devil interview with Josh Forti, one of three. So when the theme song comes back, we'll cue that up. You'll have a chance to listen to the first one. Make sure you listen to all three episodes over the next week or so because I think you're going to enjoy it. The first one is really cool because you understanding why I'm so excited about this book, the biggest takeaways, but then some practical application, episode two and then episode three, we'll talk about the new book, why, what we're talking about, and a bunch of other cool stuff. So I'm excited. With that said, we’ll queue up the theme song. When we come back we'll jump into the first part of my interview with Josh Forti. Josh Forti: What's up, everybody! Russell: We're back. We're back. Josh: We are back. Russell: Four months, we're back. Josh: We're back. We're back guys. What is up? Welcome back to another episode of Think Different Theory, I'm going to claim this one, episode of Think Different Theory. Russell: And I'll probably also use it on the Marketing Secrets podcast; we'll use it for both. Josh: That's perfect, a dual episode. Guys. We are back. We were supposed to do this last week, but Russell's- Russell: Circumstances didn't allow it. Josh: Yeah. Russell was in a bad mood. So we have to do this, but guys, welcome back today. I'm really, really excited because we are discussing- Russell: One of my new favorite books. Josh: One of your new favorite books, Outwitting the Devil, which you recommended to everybody, the whole world, what? Like three months ago, four months ago. Something like that. Russell: Yeah. I'm shocked when people read it. If you haven't yet, go buy it on Amazon. There's two versions. I got to share this real quick. He'll share that while I'll tell you guys about this. Josh: Perfect. Russell: There's two versions of it. This one's got Sharon Lechter's notes, one doesn't. I'd get the one with Sharon Lechter's notes and oh, I talk to the camera here. Hey, what's up camera. And also you get the audio book. It's awesome. Because in an audio book, you can actually hear the two voices and one voice is the devil. One's Napoleon Hill. And it's amazing. Should I tell the story about the books? Josh: Okay. So actually I want to do that. I actually want to do this because how I want to open this up is, I want to take it back. Kind of take a step back because you've built Clickfunnels and now I feel like you've gone into kind of this new stage. You start reading a bunch of books and then you like geek out on Atlas Shrugged, and then you geek out on the next thing now we're at this book. So back us up, how did you find this book? Where did it come about? And then let's dive into it because I feel like context is important. Russell: Yeah. So, man, a lot of things. So obviously those who've read any of my books. I feel like I'm done. I wrote all the marketing books, I'm out of secrets. That's it. Trilogy is done. Work is finished. It's over. Josh: Guys, we're done with Russell forever. Russell: But then for me it's like, I don't know. I think in any area of life there's a point where you get mastery and it gets harder and harder to find new things. So there's all these incremental things, but there's not a whole bunch of new stuff I can discover, like oh my gosh, ah, freak out. Josh: Right, something about marketing you've never seen before. Russell: Yeah, so it's harder. And so for me, I'm a learner. I'm always pursuing education ideas and things. And so I started just kind of re geeking out on personal development stuff just because I miss it. I'm trying to think about things in my life. And so I was going through a bunch of different things and rereading a bunch of books I read back a decade ago, like Think and Grow Rich. Which by the way, that's kind of ... This Is the first edition printed Think and Grow Rich. Russell: Josh knows I'm kind of a geek with old books. You guys will see why more in about 18 months from now. We're doing some cool things, but this is first edition Think and Grow Rich. Think and Grow Rich was written by Napoleon Hill in 1937. It's the most, outside of the Bible, it's the highest personal development book ever sold. And it's really, really good. And so I was reading that again and then people kept tell me about this other book. And there's a lot of books. Right here, this is Think and Grow Rich, this is the Laws of Success. I'm trying to acquire a first edition Laws of Success, which is, I was telling you it's insane, expensive. Josh: It's crazy expensive. But Russell's over here, geeking out on all the books. Russell: I love old books. Josh: Actually a side note on that guys, the very first time ... So this is back at, I think it was the first or second offer. I can't remember mind lab mind, the big one. Offer mind you spoke at it and you were coming off stage. And I walked out and it was you and Dave and I like ran up to you as you were getting on the elevator. Do you remember this? Russell: Yes I do. Josh: And remember I was like Russell. And I didn't know you hardly at all this time. We kind of knew, basically, we had had some interactions. I was like, I'm trying to dream 100 you, what's a good gift? And you're like old books. Ding, the elevator door shuts. You're on the elevator, I'm off the elevator. And I was like, all right, that's all I have to go on. Russell: And you sent me some amazing old books. Josh: Yeah. Russell: So, very very cool. Josh: Yeah. Russell: Yeah. And so I just, again, I'm kind of going back through and I'm relearning from Tony again and from other people and stuff like that. But then this book keeps coming up and for some reason the title didn't grab me. I was like, Outwitting the Devil, it sounds stupid. I didn't want to read it. It never even crossed my mind as a book I was going to read. It's not something that I would really care about. And then one day I downloaded it on Audible. I download almost all the books I buy physical copies of- Josh: A hundred percent. Russell: I do it Audible too just in case. And I'm one of those kind of people that when I'm in a mood for something, that's why when I travel, it drives my wife crazy. I'll bring a backpack with like 40 books. I don't know what mood I'm going to be in. Russell: And she's like, why don't you bring a Kindle? I'm like, because like paper and I wanted to be able to hold it and see where the bookmarks at. Josh: Yeah, yeah. Russell: And the same thing is true with Audible. So I just download all the Audible just in case. And so one day I was working out, I was trying, anyway. This is a longer story, but I was trying to buy success.com at the time, it ended up falling through. I didn't get it. But Napoleon Hill was actually one of the original, he wrote for success in 1980. In fact, hold, this is kind of cool. This is Napoleon Hill's, he started a magazine. He actually talks about it in Outwitting The Devil. So he started a magazine called Hill's Golden Rule. This is one of the original, this one is from 1919. But anyway, he was also an author in the original Success Magazines back in 1800, I have a whole bunch of copies, actually 1800's and Napoleon Hill's articles in Success Magazine. Josh: Dang, that's so cool. Oh my gosh. Russell: So I had just gotten some of these things. And then one morning I was working out and I was looking at my playlist and Outwitting the Devil popped up. And for some reason I was like, all right. So I clicked it and it start talking about this magazine, talked about Hills Golden Rule, talked about Success Magazine, which I was trying to acquire the time and all these things. I was just like, oh my gosh. And so the very beginning he tells the story, he's kind of telling the story, I don't really know what I was going to go. He's telling this story about his life. And then all of a sudden transitions to this conversation is happening with the devil. Russell: And as you know, you've read it. Josh: It's so good. Russell: It's just like, I started getting like, oh my gosh. Why did nobody tell me about this before this is ... Let me put in perspective, I've read a lot of personal development books. I love Think and Grow Rich. This is so much better than Think and Grow Rich. Josh: It is, I agree with that. Russell: And, do you want me to tell the story behind or do you want to tell? What's the... Josh: Full behind... Russell: Just what the book is, where it came from. This is an amazing story. Josh: I just want to pass it over to you because I have questions about it. So I want to kind of hear things from your perspective here on this thing. I think a lot of people do as well. It's funny though, because when you put this on, gosh, I kind of picked up reading halfway through last year. I made a public declaration when I graduated from high school, I literally, I bought a pickup truck. Russell: I don't read anymore. Josh: And I put down the tailgate, I got up there, I stood up, I held my arms there and I literally yelled audibly out loud. I will never read another book ever again, outside of the Bible. Literally I was so done with reading my mom made us do all this reading in high school. Right. I was like, I'm so done. And thankfully that's not the case. Russell: Do you know what that reminds me of? I got done wrestling my senior year in college and after my last match. I've publicly said I will never run again. And then I gained 60 pounds, now I run. Josh: And now you run. Yeah. Russell: We had a similar experience. We were like- Josh: We'll never do that again. But six months into last year I started picking up reading more or whatever. And actually I've been averaging three books a month this year, which is freaking awesome. But, I'm halfway through. I can't remember what book it was. I see on your Instagram story. And you're like, everybody read this book. Russell: Every chapter, it was like, oh my gosh. Josh: Right. So I immediately go and buy it. And as soon as I finished the next book, I read the whole thing. And I think I read it in two sittings, right? Like the whole day I was like, oh my gosh, this is so good. So I do. I want you to kind of break it down for those people out there that don't know what it is. It is a story of Napoleon Hill interviewing the devil essentially. So I have a lot of questions just after you kind of explain the context of it all, but why don't you just kind of give people some context around what that is. Russell: By the way I spent last little while trying to take the entire book and put it into a framework like I do. So that's what this is back here, we'll talk about this. And some of the things… Josh: We have this here too. Russell: That hopefully serve as a framework for you guys. If you decided to read, here's some stuff to help. But, okay. Russell: So there's the story. So Think and Grow Rich was published in 1937, the next year. And if you've read Think and Grow Rich, there's times in here where he's like having conversations, people would pass away. People died, he's thinking about them and having these, in his head, these conversations that they come into the book. So it's pretty cool. So in 1937, 1938 he writes the manuscript for Outwitting the Devil. Josh: Yep. Russell: And so it's a year later. And the premise of this is literally, he talks about, I don't know if this is a little interview or if this was a physical, just something in my head, but this is the conversation I had with the devil. Josh: Yeah. Russell: And it's less of just an interview, but more like he's putting the devil on trial. He's on trial and he's like, you have to answer my questions. These are my questions. Josh: And the during this time, the devil, I can't remember how he explained it in the book, but the devil is forced to have to tell the truth 100% of the time. So any question that he asked him, he cannot lie. He has to be able to tell the truth. And that's one of the questions in there is he even says, it doesn't matter if you're religious or not. It doesn't matter whether you think it's a metaphor or whether you think he actually sat down and interviewed the devil. No matter what it was, the principles still reign true. Which is why I love the book. And you basically take that element out of it. Don't let that belief get in your way, still read the book. So, yeah. And 1938 is when he wrote the book, but didn't get published in 1938. Russell: Yeah. So imagine, this is one of the coolest stories ever. So 1938, he writes the book and in the book, he actually talks about the devil's like, if you ever publish this, it'll destroy your life, it will destroy your family it will destroy everything, because all the people fighting against this are going to destroy you. And so he finishes this book a year after Think and Grow Rich, has the manuscript. And he's so scared. He never actually publishes it. So he ends up dying. I think in '78, I believe. He passes away. His wife, second person gets the manuscript. She reads it. And she's like, I'm not publishing this. Josh: Yeah. Russell: She refuses to publish it. Later, she passes away. Napoleon Hill foundation gets the book. It gets to them, they read it and they're like, oh my gosh, this is probably the best thing he's ever written. Russell: And then they actually contacted, this is cool. I talked to Sharon Lechter last week. So I called Sharon Lechter. She's right here. Says- Josh: No way. That's awesome. Russell: Right here. Sharon Lechter. So she was probably the fourth person to ever read the manuscript. They sent it to her, what do you think we should do with this. So she says she got it. She sat down and she was reading it. And she's like, this is one of the greatest things ever published. If you don't know Sharon Lechter. She was the one who helped with all of the Rich Dad, Poor Dad books. She was the CEO of the company for a long time. She helped build the biggest financial education company on the planet. And now she's coming over here to this mission and she takes his book and she's the one who takes it, gets the manuscript ready for print. Inside of here's got her notes, which is kind of cool. Her notes taking it from, it was published back in, the last big crash what were the two- Josh: Eight, yeah. Russell: 2008. So she's sharing things in here and how they relate back then, which is kind of cool. But anyway, so she published it. Josh: And it's in the audio book as well, she kind of goes through and comments. Russell: She jumps in. Josh: There's a devil's voice. And then there's Napoleon Hill's voice. And then there's her kind of commenting, which is actually kind of cool through the thing. Russell: Yeah. Josh: Yeah. Russell: It is kind of cool to make it natural or make it kind of tied to the time. But I think even nowadays, a decade later, whatever, it's even more- Josh: Well. Russell: Applicable. Josh: And that's, what's crazy is you read the book and if you didn't know that it was written back in 1938, you'd be like, oh, he's totally talking about right now. Russell: Yeah. Josh: You have no clue he's talking about- Russell: Because some of the references he's talking about Hitler and Mussolini. All of these people and we're like, okay, well, the dictators nowadays are different, but that was who- Josh: Right. Russell: The things that were happening. Josh: Yeah. Russell: Right then in time. Josh: Yeah. Yeah. And just the craziness of fear and economic turmoil and depression. I'm like, huh. Sounds like where we're at now. So anyway. Russell: So that's, the cool story about it. It's just this book that this manuscript has been lost for generations from literally the best personal development author of our time. Josh: Yeah. Russell: And to bring it back. I was just visualizing myself as Sharon Lechter reading that original. Can you imagine just reading the manuscript and be- Josh: Being the first part of the third or fourth person to ever read it? Russell: So insanely cool. So anyway, that's kind of the backstory and then you get into it and it's fascinating. So that's the story behind the book. Josh: That's why you guys have to read it, how cool is that? Yeah, it's super, super cool. And kind of what I'd love to do, I want you to go through, because I think this is important. For the sake of time, I mean, we could probably talk for four or five or six hours on this book. But for the sake of time, the time constraints, I think this summarizes the book super well. Josh: And so I'd love to go through the book. I'd love to see your interpretation of the framework and kind of explain it. And then, it's funny because whenever I go through personal development books, you see everything through the world of funnels and marketing and things like that. I cannot read a personal development book without looking at whether or not the fundamental principles of it are true or what they align with. Right. So they align with Christianity or Atheism or whatnot. So I have questions about, because I'm a huge fan of the book. You're a huge fan of the book. Right. But there's some certain things in here that he talks about that I have questions that I'd love to know your opinion on. So I think if we go through and kind of talk through the overall context of the book here and then kind of pivot towards that towards the end, I think that would be awesome. Russell: Well, one thing to just kind of address that before we get too deep into it. Because I know a lot of people have this fear of reading, anything of what if I don't believe it. Well, I'm not this belief therefore, I can't. And I'm such a big believer in there's truth in most things, I think there's truth in all things. And I can read something and be like, oh my gosh, 97% of this, I believe spot on. 3% I don't really agree with, but I can still appreciate the 97% and love it and enjoy it and be grateful for it. In fact, I do the same thing in my personal relationships, I can talk to somebody I don't agree 100% with. And I still like them afterwards, which is something I think our world needs to learn how to do better. But. Josh: Yeah, even if you lose Bitcoin bets. Russell: Hey, now. Let’s talk about frameworks… That's 3% of him I can’t stand right now. Anyway, okay. So the way my mind works, when I read it ... So I read the book first time and I was just in this whirlwind of, oh my gosh, there's so many things. And I was re listening today as I was working out, trying to ... This is a framework, but there's so many levels and layers and things go deeper and deeper and deeper. So the first time I listened to it, I was just kind of overwhelmed because there's so much good stuff. Russell: And the second time I was going through it, I was like, okay, if I was trying to doodle this to explain to somebody what's the overarching- Josh: Yeah, what's the promise of the book? Russell: The framework. Josh: Yeah. Russell: That's just kind of the way if you've read any of my books, that's how my brain works. I read like 30 books and from there I'm like, okay, this is what I think they're saying. So this is kind of the premise. I'll walk up to the board and kind of show you guys this. But the basic concept is all of us, me, you, anybody. Right. We have a decision comes to us and we've got two choices every single time. And that's kind of where this whole thing starts from. So should I go over there? Josh: Yeah. Yeah. You take my mic too. Russell: Okay, I'm taking mic. So I know you guys can't see this perfectly and this is going to be the words they're all small, so I'll kind of talk through it and hopefully that'll work. So here's me or you. And this is us and we have decisions come to us. They come to us. Am I audio right here? Can you hear it? Cool. So we have decisions all the time. So the biggest thing is, if something comes to us, we can make decisions based on one or two things. Right. We're either making decision based on faith or based on fear. That's it, those are the two things. And obviously, especially in the last year, we've noticed, I think that this has been amplified. Where do most of us make our decisions? I think the way you'll find is that people traditionally make their decisions one way or the other. Russell: Either they make all their decisions towards fear, or all of them towards faith. And so that's something start thinking about personally yourself, as I start thinking about when I'm making decisions, am I doing them through fear or through faith? And I feel like people, not a hundred percent, I think you tend to favor one of these. And it's important because when you start understanding Satan, how the devil is using these as tools, it starts helping you think, I got to start making my decisions differently or else I'm doing what he wants. So I'm going to start on the fear side. So his initial goal is to get people to make decisions based on fear. If he can get that, you become what he calls the drifter. So drift or somebody who's drifting through life- Josh: I'm going to stop you really quick. Russell: Yeah. Josh: Really quick. I'm just going to take my mic back really quick. I think one of the things I want to just cover here really quick, is kind of the premise of how this, even before we dive into this, how this came about. Because in the book, basically Napoleon Hill asks the devil. He's like, Hey, listen, I want to understand what you, as the devil are doing to try to control people. Because in the book, one of the things that he claims, and I guess you have it up here, the 98%. Is that the devil controls 98% of people on the earth by getting them to do drifting, which we'll talk about here in a second. Right? And so the whole premise of this book is basically Napoleon Hill is interviewing the devil and getting the devil to explain how the laws of the universe work and basically how the devil is using those laws of the universe to pull people towards him. And then he also draws contrast of that, of how God uses them to draw people towards God. And so it's basically understanding the laws of success, the laws of the universe, how they work and it's, what is it? The secrets of freedom and success. So if you understand he's asking questions with the specific intention of trying to figure out how the world works, how the devil is using those, and then how we can use those things to ultimately have success if we can figure out how they work. Is that? Russell: Perfect. Josh: Good. Yeah. Russell: Cool. Thank you for adding that. That was awesome pre-frame and I think that ... Hope that works. When you understand that it's like, that is this that's the war we're in every single day, right? I mean, it's every movie. Right and wrong, good and evil. Right? That's the fight. Right? And so the devil here is showing, this is my playbook. This is how I get people to come to my side. And so his side, he calls them drifters. Drifters, people who are drifting through life. They're not ambitious, not doing anything. There's kind of there. And when you're a drifter, he controls you. And he said, 98% of the population he controls by getting them to drift. The first thing does that by initially, decision comes, you act in faith or act in fear. If you act in fear, you are moving down towards being a drifter, okay. Now he starts going through what are the most effective ... Ugh, so good. So many good things. But so he said, how does he get people to act towards fear? So he's like, these are my six tools. I have six tools. Off camera: Are we good on volume? Russell: Is the volume good? Do I need to yell louder? Okay. These are the six tools, the most effective tools I use. I have to get people to act towards. So the first one is poverty. If you can get them to fear poverty, oh, if I do the thing I might could be poor. Then I'm going to be fearful instead of having faith. And, I don't care if I'm poor, I'm going to go for it. Right. So he gets people to fear through poverty. Through criticism. How many of you guys have had a decision to make, and you have fear. Oh, what if people criticize me? That's one of his tools, right? Health. Ah, I don't know if I can do that. Because I'm not healthy enough. Loss of love, old age and death. So those are the six most effective fears that the devil uses that get you to take fear over faith. And he said of those six, the two most powerful are poverty and death. He can get you to be scared of, I'm going to lose all my money. I'm going to be broke. Or, oh, if I do that, I might die. Or, I might not... Those things. Those are the two most powerful tools. So that was really fascinating for me. I look to that because I have so many times in my life when I have decisions, I am scared of criticism or I'm scared of loss of love or whatever those things might be, right. Entrepreneurship. How many times you trying to gamble everything. If you're scared of poverty, right? Then it's like, ah. In fact, I have entrepreneurs all the time. This is a conversation I have way more often than you would think where they're coming to me. And they built the business to a certain point and they're stuck and they're so scared. And the thing that I always had to come back to them, what's the worst case scenario? Because there's a spot where they're so fearful. They can't act and they can't make decisions. They can't do anything. And they just are frozen and they start shrinking right there. You see them going from people who have the presence to be able to take action. Do things. These people are stuck and frozen. And I literally, my conversation I have over and over and over again, it's like, well, what's the worst case scenario. Because if you're not okay with the worst case scenario with poverty, with death, these things. If you're not okay with those, there's no way you're going to have faith to move forward. You have to break yourself of the worst case scenario. And so I see this in my own life. I see it in so many entrepreneurs, coach, I see this as the cycle for them getting to fear. So everyone take a personal reflection. Which one are the ones that you're most afraid of, is it poverty, criticism, ill health, loss of love, old age or death. Josh: And I'm actually just going to stand up here. Because I think it'll be easier. And one of the things that... So what he's trying to do is he's trying to use one of these six things to get you to become a drifter. Ooh, we just moved the screen. That's the key thing. And I'm looking at this camera here. Okay. That's the key thing that he's trying to get you to do is the devil wants you to become a drifter because if the opposite of being drifting is, and it's the characteristics of a non drifter over here, is you have definitive purpose. You have mastery over self, you have a learning from adversity, controlling environmental influence, time, positive thoughts over time. And then thinking through plans before you act on them. So if you have those things, that's the opposite of being a drifter. If he can get you to drift, then you don't have definitive purpose, then you're not actually going after anything. Then you're not going to be able to have control over it. And then he has control over you. And that's the comparison that he keeps drawing in the book, right? If he can get you to drift, then he has control over you. But if you're not a drifter, then guess what? Then he doesn't have power over you. And then you're ultimately going to have success and freedom in life. And so, these are the things that he lays out in the book and it's like, okay, look, if you choose to be a free thinker, if you choose to be someone who is like, this is what we're all about. Has control of your mind. You're going to come into this spiritual, mental, and physical freedom category versus the drifter category. Russell: Yeah. It's amazing. And yeah, I think what... In fact, I almost called this column here, definitive purpose. Because it's so in fact if you read Think and Grow Rich, he talks to the whole chapter about definitive purpose. People who say, this is the thing I want going to go through it. I'm at a definitive purpose. No matter what happens, no matter what obstacles, trials I'm going to go get the thing that's definitive purpose, right? Again, that's the big premise of Think and Grow Rich. And here he comes back to it. Again, I almost made the title of this, but it's not- Josh: I think it fits better. Russell: It does. But it's not an opposite, where this is freedom versus drifting is the opposites. And this is what it actually says in the book. Josh: If we just summarized it as one word drifters versus freedom. Russell: Yeah, yeah. Spiritual and physical freedom. Yeah, because freedom of mind, this whole thing is he trying to control the mind if you control your mind, you win. Josh: Yeah. Russell: And so, yeah. The definitive purpose, that's the number one characteristic of a non drifter is definitive purpose. Right? So, you're coming here. I'm an act. And you're like, oh, I got fear. I got fear. What if, what if, what if they criticize me? And you don't act. Where here you're like I've got definitive purpose. This is my mission. This is the goal. I don't care what happens. I'm going to go for it and you just go for it. And that's where you're acting in faith. I don't know the path. I don't know where I'm going, but I believe in my skillset, I believe in my mission. I believe in my calling. I'm going to go and you start moving and eventually you show up and you end up over here. Josh: Yeah. Russell: So anyway, and then these other ones are all amazing. We can go deeper, but. Josh: Yeah, we can go deeper. And I think we can hold this. This is the same thing. Right? Russell: Okay. Josh: So we can hold up there? Russell: All right. Josh: And that way we can get kind of back to poor Brandon's over there. Brandon's over there like, yeah. Russell: You're ruining my mic. Josh: Yeah. So one of the things I want to dive deep down in on this is specifically on here, you have this thing called hypnotic rhythm. And if I were to do this, as an overview, it's basically, there's a human and then there's the devil. And then there's God, this is basically how he describes it in the book. Right. There's the devil and there's God. And there's the human and the human is going through life and there's the devil pulling for him and there's God pulling for him. Right. And then that person has the choice. Russell: It's like two angels, devil on your shoulder Josh: Yeah, pretty much. Right. And then you have the choice to either choose faith or choose fear, which is why, one of the things that I've been so adamantly kind of fighting right now is, don't live in fear. Why is anybody fearful of anything? And I know that's easy for me to say, because I'm not afraid of death. Right. And that's literally one of the top things that he uses to control the mind. Right. And you look around the world today and everyone's so afraid of dying or it's like, who cares? Whatever. I know where I'm going when I die. But, that's one of the things that I've been fighting so strongly. So, I have a fear and I become a drifter or I have faith and I become someone with definitive purpose and I have freedom ultimately in my life. But there's this thing underneath that is kind of the core crux of what ultimately keeps us there. And it's, I actually have notes on it, but it's this thing called hypnotic rhythm. Russell: It was interesting because he talks about hypnotic rhythm after he talks about drifters. And he's like my goal is to get them into hypnotic rhythm. He says that if you go from routines to habits you have, it's going to be habitual. And they're habitual, they become hypnotic rhythm where you're stuck in this cycle. And he says is that how you control the drifters. That's how the universe controls everything. Josh: Yeah. Russell: Positive and negative. That's why, if you look at the bottom here, it's got the little whirlpool at the bottom for hypnotic rhythm. It's the same thing. So if you have good habits and you're doing things, do you get a spot where eventually it's a pattern that you're just stuck in. It's easier to stay in the 2%. If you're in the 98%, it's easier to stay there too. Hypnotic rhythm serves all things. Josh: And that's the thing I think is so interesting about it is the way that he explains it is hypnotic rhythm is the thing that keeps the world in harmony. Right? And one of the quotes out of the book that I wrote down is nature, which in this particular case he's talking about nature in the form of hypnotic rhythm. "Nature is not interested in morals, as such she is not interested in right or wrong. She is not interested in justice or injustice. She's interested only in forcing everything to express action according to its nature." Right? So when you go into hypnotic rhythm, either positively or negatively, you get into the rhythm of nature, right. And nature is interested. And if you look at it purely from an objective standpoint, he's saying that nature is only interested in making the thing, the object, in this case you do what has been designed to do. So if you're choosing to be in hypnotic rhythm in the spiritual freedom side of things, nature is going to keep you in that. And that's why, it's almost rewiring your whole brain and your whole life for success. It's why successful people continue to have success. And it's why non-successful people do not have success. And I think understanding that and understanding that hypnotic rhythm is, I almost like to think of it as the subconscious mind. Right? Once your subconscious mind goes into the hypnotic rhythm to just do the same thing over and over and over again, it's very, very difficult to escape that. Russell: Yeah. And you see it happen in your life all the time. There's times in my life, when I was wrestling where I had so many routines, so many things where that structure in my life was just, it happens on autopilot because that was what I did. Right. And so it was perfect. I didn't have to everyday figure out, how am I going to be successful? How am I going to have definitive purpose? It become part of me. Right. Josh: Yeah. Russell: It’s something in business, or other parts. I think that it's true. We get these patterns, these ruts, these things, wherever it is. Either positively or negatively, but that's the hypnotic rhythm where that's the goal is to get in those. But in the positive side, not negative side. Because you see it's a downward spiral. Josh: Yeah. Russell: Right. Upward spiral positively or downward spiral negatively. But if you get into hypnotic rhythm, that's the thing that keeps you in that spot. Josh: Yeah. Russell: Does that make sense? Josh: Yeah. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Here’s a trick to help you get more stuff done. Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ---Transcript--- What's up, everybody? This is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets podcast. Today, I am streaming from you, from the top of Boise. Literally, I'm in the penthouse looking over Boise. And this is where I come when I am writing. And I don't know about you, but when I have big projects, sometimes my mind tries to do everything possible to make sure I don't do the thing. And so, I want to talk about that today, what I'm doing, some of my thoughts and some of my struggles. And hopefully it'll make you guys realize that you're probably just like me. All right. Hopefully this helps get you guys to get more stuff done. And with that said, we'll cue the theme song and then I'll be right back. All right. So, the last time I was doing this, I was in this penthouse. I was writing the Traffic Secrets book, which is crazy. And I would come up here for multiple days at a time. I'd lock myself in here and I would just write like crazy. And right now, I'm finding myself under similar deadlines. I thought with this book, I was going to have one more time. So, those who already know, I'm writing book number four. This is my first personal development book ever. I'm really excited for it. It's everything I've learned in the last 20 years put into doodles. So, if you like my doodles, hopefully it'll help make all these things make more sense to you. So, I'm excited for it. But I found, and I wonder if ... I think we're all this way. I definitely know I am. But when I have something I need to do, right? Even if it sounds cool at the time and I'm excited about it, my brain ... As I start doing the thing, my brain's Like, "Ah, this is painful. I wish we were watching TV. We should be eating candy. We should be doing something else." Right? And so, as I sit down to start typing, I get energy, excitement. I sit down and as soon as I start typing, my brain's freaking out, looking for anything possible. Like, "Ah, there's a TV. Ah, there’s outside. A bird just flew by. Oh, your phone's ringing. Oh, you should turn on some music. Oh, you should check your email. What happens if Facebook, somebody dings you? What if someone texts you?" All the things, every possible distraction my brain starts screaming at me, like bloody murder, trying to get me to not do the one thing that I got to actually do. So, my first question is, do you guys feel that way ever? Do you have something you're like, "This is so important, I must do it." But you have some kind of pain associated with it in your mind. So, as you start getting closer and closer to actually doing the thing that you need to do, man, it's like everything possible around you starts flying around, trying to stop you from doing the thing. If so, you are in good company because it happens to me too. And so, I'm going to share some things that have helped me. And again, I am so far from perfect. I'm in the middle of this right now. I literally recorded this podcast and my brain's like, "Oh, you should record a podcast. That'd be way less painful than actually writing." So, I'm literally being a bad example by doing this podcast, but hopefully it'll help get me back to work as well. So, a couple of things I found. When I have to get something done, if I'm in my ordinary situation, right? If I'm at my office or if I'm at my house, somewhere where I'm there a lot, I know what the distractions are, right? I know that my wife's outside or my kids are outside. I know where the TVs are. I know ... It's so familiar, I know quickly every single distraction. I’m at the office. If I’m at the office, there's a million people I can talk to. There's always something I can do to not do my job, right? There's something exciting I can share with Dave, or I can go talk to Brent, or I can tell Melanie something. There's always something that I can do to distract me from doing the thing that I got to actually do. And so, because of that I'm in this space and I'm used to those interruptions, or I'm used to things. And on top of that, people see me, like, "Oh, Russell's here. Let me ask him a quick question." Right? It pulls you and derails you off this thing. And so, a big part of it, for me, is I have to literally shift my environment. This is why I flew ... Not flew. I drove down to the penthouse, I'm here and I'm by myself. It's lonely. There's nobody else here. It's just me and my thoughts. And so, first off, it cuts off 10 levels of potential distractions. Okay? So, that's the first step. The second step is, for me, I have to find rewards of things I want. Like, "I want to listen to this thing. I want to watch this show, or I want to eat this thing or whatever." And I have to have those things and I cannot give those to myself, right? These have to be the carrot to get me to actually do something, right? So for me, for example, is 11:00 right now, I'm starving. I want to eat breakfast this morning and I said, "If I eat breakfast right now, then I'm going to feel really good. And I'm going to go ... I'll just ... " There's no carrot. So I was like, "Okay, I'm going to eat, but I can't eat until this chapter's done." And then my brain's like, "But the chapter, it could be really long," and all the things. I'm like, "I know, but if you're hungry, you got to figure this out." And so, I was like, "Ah." And so, finally, I sat down ... And at least for me with writing, it takes a minute for me to get into flow state, right? Sometimes it takes 20, 30, 40, an hour for me to be able to get to the spot where I'm writing, right? I'm thinking, I'm analyzing, I'm trying to think about stuff, I'm researching. I'm trying to find stuff. And then I start writing and then I can get into the zone. And then it's like, "Okay, now I'm in the zone." So, then I start writing as fast as I can, right? And I'll be like, "Okay. As soon as I get to the end of this, I get my reward. I get to go eat lunch or breakfast or whatever it is and I'm so excited." So, I'm writing, I'm writing. I'm going as fast as I can. And I'm in momentum now, right? So, that's the next thing, it's like tricking yourself with these carrots to get you into momentum, right? And then when you're in momentum ... I can't remember who it was, some writer that I was following said this, and it was really, really cool. He said that if you end your writing ... If you end at the end of a chapter, then it's this is ending point, right? And then the problem's like, "Oh, I'm done." Then you go and you do your thing and you reward yourself. Then you come back and you're like, "Ah, how do I get back into this?" Right? Into the next chapter, the next project, the next video, whatever it is. And so, it's starting all over again. So what they recommended was when you get to the end of something, you don't stop, you start the next chapter, right? You write the first three or four paragraphs where there's still momentum, where things are happening. And then when you stop, it's like, "Oh, I know where I left off. I can pick up a lot faster than going through that whole exercise of spending 45 minutes to an hour trying to figure out what you're going to talk about and get your mindset back right. And getting into the spot." Right? So, you're starting the next part of the process, the next part of the project and you get part of it done, so that brainstorming session you had was ... Happened while you're in momentum, it's going to be faster and then you can pick up faster when you come back from eating breakfast, or your activity, or whatever the thing is that you reward yourself with. So, that's kind of cool as well. So, those are some of the core things I'm working on right now. So, literally I just finished the chapter. I got the next intro written and now I'm like, "maybe I can come eat." And then I'm like, "I'm going to reward myself by doing a podcast real quick and eating." And all these little things real quick, knowing though that I got to be back up in 20 minutes and I got to pick up where I left off and I got to do another two hour sprint to get to the next chapter, because I have my next reward after that. And then I've got one more tonight and then I'm done and I'm going to head back home and go be with the kids, which is the ultimate reward. So anyway, there's some tricks. Again, it's not a flawless system. It's not perfect. I'm still struggling, but they're some of the things that are helping me. And so, I think for any of you guys who are like me, who have the ADD, like, "Squirrel, there's a squirrel over here. No, right here and over here." These are some tricks that will help you actually get your projects done. Change your environment, get away from your normal world, right? Some people will go to a Starbucks. They'll go to a library, or they go to the park bench. If that's what it takes, go there, right? Some people come in early in the day. They come out late at night, when everyone's asleep or whatever. Figure out what it is that you need to go to be able to do that is number one. Number two, get yourself into momentum, right? As quick as you can. When you're in momentum, you're going to get more stuff done. And when you're in momentum, keep working through it, right? Oh, and give yourself treats, or prizes, or something at the end of a momentum session to make sure that you actually get to it. And then again, don't end on the end of a chapter or the end of the project. Start the next ones, so that way you're able to keep moving forward. So, there you go. Hope that helps. With that said, I'm going to pound my breakfast real quick and get back to work on this book so someday, hopefully you guys have a chance to read it. So, that's my goal. That's my plan. I appreciate you all for listening and we'll talk to you all again soon. Bye, everybody. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

One of my favorite principles from a book called “Outwitting The Devil” by Napoleon HillHit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I answer this great question from our community: Is it possible for multiple entrepreneurs to work together effectively, or is it better to hire a talented team of people to execute your vision instead? Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ---Transcript--- What's up, everybody? This is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets podcast. Today, we are taking some questions from some of our listeners, which I'm excited for. So the question we're going to talk about today is, is it possible for multiple entrepreneurs to work effectively on a project or within a business, or is it better to have one entrepreneur or leader and build a team of talented people to execute on their vision? So, I got some examples with this and I'll share it when we get back from the theme song. All right, everybody. So the longer you do podcasts, the harder it is to come up with new ideas. So we started asking our audience and you guys, what kind of things would you like to hear about? What questions do you have? And we got a ton of them back. So I'll start sprinkling these in more often and the stories behind them, and hopefully it'll help you guys on your journey. I also feel like I'm getting close to really upgrading the Marketing Secrets experience. I have some ideas and things I want to do and create that I'm pumped for. And so, anyway, those things will be coming soon. So as a faithful listener, you will be on the front lines of some amazing, amazing, cool things. All right, so the question, let me restate it. And this is in context to, a lot of you guys saw the project we did at Mastermind.com. And so Mastermind.com, obviously it was me, Dean, and Tony, initially. And obviously, Tony used his face and his content and everything, but it was really me and Dean Graziosi who were running that business initially. And then if you notice now, the new launch is coming up, you'll probably notice that my face isn't on it. And a lot of people have been asking, "Wait. What happened? Did you get in a fight with those guys? Are you still working on it? Are you not part of it? What's the whole process? How's it all working?" And then the question that came tied to that is, is it possible for multiple entrepreneurs to work effectively on a project or within a business, or is it better to have one entrepreneur leader and build a team of talented people execute their vision? And there's a couple of follow-up questions on that as well, but I'll address that first. And it's funny, because I see that a lot of times when I was running my Inner Circle meetings, which I'm thinking about bringing back. Would you guys be interested if I brought back my inner circle? Anyway, I'll post that there and just leave it for a few minutes. But anyway, I noticed a lot of times these entrepreneurs would come to group, and everyone who is an entrepreneur, unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on how you look at it, they all have a million ideas and their ideas are all amazing. And so, they all come in there and everybody has got these ideas and everyone is doing things. And also, two people have an idea during a meeting and they're like, "We should start a business together" and they get together. And unfortunately, it rarely ever goes well. Sometimes it does. Every once in a while it does go really, really well. But so many times it starts where you have two idea people, they get in a room, they have an idea together, they birthed this thing, and they're like, "We should do it together." But then they start working on it, executing on it, depending on where their skillset lie, either it goes really, really well, or really, really bad, or somewhere in between there. And that honestly is what happened with Mastermind.com. If you look at Dean Graziosi and me, I love Dean, he's one of my favorite people I've met since I've been on this planet. I have so much love and respect for him and his family and what he does and his mission and his vision, and it's amazing. In fact, I think one of the reasons why I have so much respect for Dean is I think of all the people in this industry, I think me and him have the most similar skillsets, which is interesting. Dean writes books. I write books. Dean builds funnels. I build funnels. Dean creates content. I create content and courses. Dean runs a Mastermind group. I run a Mastermind group. Dean speaks at stages and closes deals on stages. I speak on stages. Dean ran a big call center. I ran a big call center. If you look at... I don't know, I know people who write books. I know people who build funnels. I know people who build courses. I know people who run companies. I know people who... all these different skillsets. But there's only one other person I know besides me who does it all. And so I think that's why Dean and I have such a good connection is, we both see each other, like "Man, nobody else out here is running the size business you are, and creating the ads, and writing the copy, and writing the book and all kind of things." And so, I have so much respect for him. And so that's why I think a lot of times we love working together. We have ideas and we bounce ideas off each other, and we brainstorm. And it's fun to have someone that I can pitch and catch with back and forth. And I just love it. And so that's why when the whole Mastermind thing came up, Dean had this idea for Mastermind.com. Well, he had a different name for it, and I was like, "You should buy Mastermind.com." And he didn't want to pay for it, so I bought it and gave to him as a gift. And then in exchange, he basically gave me some equity in the company. He said, "You come be part of this thing. It would be really, really cool." So over the last two years, I've been at different stages involved with Mastermind.com. With the first launch of the KBB course, I was a partner in that. And then, later we built software together at that's actually at Mastermind.com and did a whole launch together. And it's fun. And this is what I wanted to share with you guys. The difficulties is that Dean and I have literally the exact same skillset. But just because we have the same skillset, the direction or the vision of where we want things, isn't always a 100% in alignment. And it's tough because both of us have had tons of success, saying, "This is my vision, my plan, let's go." And it's tough when you have someone who you come in and you both have different visions a little bit, but same drive and same motivation and same skillsets. There were times where it was hard for both of us, where I was like, "I want to go this way." He's like, "Well, I want to go this way." I'm like, "Well, I think I'm right." He's like, "Well, I think I'm right." But I'm not used to somebody trumping me, and he's the same way. And it's like, "What do we do?" And it got to the point where, it was never negative, but it was just hard. Someone needed to carry on the vision. Someone needed to be able to run. Someone needed to be able to do it without the checks and balances of the other person. And so, eventually, because it's his baby and his thing, and we're working on something really big at ClickFunnels, I was like, "You know what? The initial launch was done. It was fun. We had a great experience. We made a lot of money. We helped a lot of people. It was great. Everything was great." But I was just like, "This is your vision. This is your baby." And so I passed it back. I said, "Look, I'm going to give it back to you." And in exchange, he sent us some really cool gifts. He sent Todd an amazing gift for Todd's wife, actually, him and his wife. And then he sent me a really cool gift as well. Which, if you ever see me on stage at Funnel Hacking wearing a blue amazing watch, that was the gift he sent me. And anyway, it ended in great. And we're still super close friends and still doing deals together and everything. But I think what we learned from that experience was just, "Look, if two people have the same skillset, it's hard to be business partners in a thing, because you both have the same skillset. Now, I want to contrast that with Todd. When I start working with Todd, Todd is amazing. Todd's an entrepreneur, Todd's got vision, Todd's got all sorts of things. But Todd's skillset, and if you don't know, Todd, Todd Dickerson is my co-founder at ClickFunnels. He's the one who runs the software side of things. We both are entrepreneurs in our own ways. But our skillsets, they aren't the same. They compliment, they're not the same thing. It's like in basketball, you don't need two Michael Jordan's on a basketball team. If you have two Michael Jordans on a basketball team, it's going to struggle. You need a Michael Jordan and a Scotty Pippen. And as someone who is not a big basketball guy, I think I nailed that analogy, I hope. But you know what I mean? So, you look at me and Todd, Todd and I are like a Michael Jordan and Scotty Pippen. In fact, I don't know if you guys have seen the Michael Jordan documentary, it's called The Last Dance. It's, I think nine or 10 episodes. It's insanely good. If you haven't watched it, you need to go watch it. But one of the first things that Jordan said, he said, "Without Scotty Pippen, there's no Michael Jordan." And I would say the same thing, without Todd Dickerson, there's no Russell Brunson. I couldn't do what I need to do without his skillset. And Todd would probably say the same thing. Todd can build amazing software, but it wouldn't have become ClickFunnels without me. Our skillsets compliment each other. And without Todd, I couldn't be me. Without me, he probably couldn't do what he's trying to do. And so it's a complimentary skill set. And so, because of that, we were able to come together and we were able to build this thing called ClickFunnels. And Todd and I have such love and respect for each other. It's nice because Todd can say, "Look, I default to you, Russell, on these things." And I default to Todd on these things. In fact, one of the fascinating things, we have a new personality assessment company coming out that we're launching here in the next couple of months, so I've been geeking out on that. But it's interesting, if you look at Todd and I's 16 personalities or Myers-Briggs test, we basically have the exact same personality, except for Todd is a thinker and I'm a feeler. So it's cool now that we've learned that as I'm interacting with Todd, I understand that we're the same in so many ways, but he's going to analyze things logically and I'm going to feel things out. And so I'll tell him in a message, I'll say, "Hey, Todd, this is the thing that I want to do. This is why I feel like that. But I'm curious, what do you think about that?" I literally will say it that way. And Todd will come back, "Well, I think this." And he'll come back and say, "How do you feel?" And so it's really cool now that we understand that. And so, a lot of times what will happen is that my emotions will feel something I want to be really, really strong, but because it's so strong, and I want to do it, my brain turns off logic and, screw logic, we're just going to do this, where then Todd comes in and says, "Well, that's awesome, but here's the logic." And he's able to explain the logic. And I'm like, "Oh, I didn't see it from that point." Or vice versa, sometimes he's like, "Logic. This doesn't make sense." I'm like, "No, Todd, I feel it. I don't know why, but I can feel this is going to be the thing." And he'll default to me a lot of times. But it's made for a really good working relationship. And so, in that situation, yes, we can have multiple entrepreneurs work effectively on a project in the business, but you have to have complimentary skillsets, not the same. I think the same makes it very, very difficult. And so, anyway, that's the thought process. And then one of the followup questions, someone said, he said, "This makes me think of Steven Larsen and how he worked with Russell, but since he was too entrepreneurial, he had to leave and pursue his own path." So those who don't know Steven Larsen, he worked as my chief funnel builder for two years sitting next to me. And Steve and I have very similar skillsets as well, not the same, but very similar. Funnel building and speaking, and things like that. And so, it was tough because inside of the ClickFunnels organization, it was hard for Steven to be like, "Hey, I want this role" because that was my role. And so he was able to do a lot of cool things and work with us and have success. But there's a point where he was just like, "Inside of this environment, there's already a Michael Jordan. I can't be the Michael Jordan." If there wasn't, he could have been in this environment and said, "I'm going to take that role" and stepped up and dominated it. But because there's already someone playing that role, it was hard for him. So he wanted that role. He desired that role. He had developed himself so he'd be worthy of that role. And so he had to go out on his own to go and create it. And he did. And he's been super successful ever since then. And so, anyway, that's what I wanted to share with you guys. I think knowing that it's looking at any kind of partnership and looking at, first off, are you going to get along with that person? Which you never know, short term it's easy to get along with people, long-term, you never know till you get in business with them. But making sure you have enough love and respect for somebody that if it works or doesn't work, you're able to work it out. Dean and I, I love him as much now as I did before, and we never got any big fights or arguments, but it was just like, we both knew, I think. It was just like, "Hey, you're Michael Jordan. We don't need two of us. We're going to lose the game if we do that. We need someone who is in charge." And I was able to hand the reins to him and he's running with it, and you'll see what they're doing during the next launch, and it's amazing. It's definitely probably different than I would have done it, but doesn't matter. There's no right or wrong, it's just whose vision are you executing on. And Dean's vision is amazing. And so, that's how it worked. With Todd and I, it's a little different. And he's able to execute on the vision on his side, I can execute on the vision on my side, and we have love and respect for each other that we can make it so it all works. And so, think about that as you're going into business with people, if you are doing partnerships. Unfortunately, that was one of the negative things I saw in the Inner Circle. One of the reasons why I eventually paused it was just there started being drama. People starting businesses together and not working out. And then there being hard feelings. Those are the things that always want to be cautious of. So I'm always very nervous getting into any kind of partnership or relationship. It's good to work with each other I think as either employee, employer for a while, or as project based stuff until you've had a chance to see how they're reacting to the situations and how you get along with them and stuff like that. Because, a lot of times, if you get into business together and it doesn't work out, it can end a friendship, which is the worst thing. And for me, this business is just a game we're playing to keep ourselves occupied, and it doesn't actually really matter that much. So, it's just part of it. It's a big game we're playing to hopefully learn some skillsets, meet new people along the way. So, there you go. There's my answer for, is it possible for multiple entrepreneurs to work effectively together on a project or within a business, or is it better to have one entrepreneur leader and build a team of talented people to execute their vision? So, hope that helps. That said, thank you guys all for listening to this podcast. If you enjoyed it, please go to iTunes and rate and review it. I've been doing this for six, seven, eight years now. And if you haven't had a chance to review it, please, I'm trying to bring you things that I feel like will help you invest in your business. Hopefully they are. Go rate and review. Leave some stars, even if you don't love it. Let us know. We read those, and it would let me know how I can better serve you guys in the future. So, that said, thanks again, and I'll talk to you guys all again soon. Bye, everybody. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Why be an entrepreneur? Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ---Transcript--- What's up everybody? This is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets Podcast. Excited to be here with you guys today. Today we'll be talking about what I call the Bootstrapped Manifesto. Something I read from Jason Fried, who was one of the co-founders of Basecamp, and it is amazing. I want to share with you guys today when we get back from the intro. All right. So it's not a secret. Some of you guys know that not now, but in the future I'm writing a book called Bootstrapped. I bought the domain name, bootstrapped.com. We have a new award coming out of Funnel Hacking Live. I can't tell you a lot about other than it's the Bootstrapped Entrepreneur of the Year Award and a bunch of other things. I'm obsessed with bootstrapping. In fact, we bootstrapped ClickFunnels from zero to where it is today. It's an amazing story that we love to talk about and brag about. I think I have a place in my heart for all businesses who bootstrap. That thought, that concept, things keep coming out of my mind because I'm so excited about writing the book and it's going to be the ClickFunnels story, how we bootstrapped ClickFunnels. I want to turn bootstrapped.com into TechCrunch, but TechCrunch for people who didn't cheat and take on money. I'm just looking for things tied around bootstrapping and starting businesses and everything. Today actually, yeah today, Jason Fried, he's one of the co-founders of Basecamp, wrote an article on his blog that is insane. I read it, and I literally just messaged Todd. I said, "This is like the title, Liberty for Bootstrapped and Bootstrapping." It is amazing. If you don't know Jason ... There's two co-founders of Basecamp. It's interesting. It's very similar to the two co-founders of ClickFunnels. One is named DHH. That's his nickname, I don't know, it's David something. Anyway, he is the Todd of base camp. He's a hardcore coder. And then Jason is like the marketing dude for Basecamp, which is like me. I feel like he's a kindred spirit. I had a chance to interview him once, man, almost a decade ago when he wrote the book, Rework, which is one of my favorite books of all time. But he's just amazing. I digress. I want to share with you this article from him. I'm just going to read it to you. I'll probably mess up my reading, but it is ... When I read it, I was like, "Yes, this is why we bootstrap. This is why we're entrepreneurs." So he wrote this article on April 8, 2021, which is the day that I'm recording this. The title was, Why to be an Entrepreneur. He said, "Earlier this week, I caught up with a friend and fellow CEO over lunch. We are in entirely different industries, but as we usually do, we talk a little shop. We've both been at the wheel for a while and we both built lasting businesses without any outside capital. One of the topics we slid into is why to be an entrepreneur, not why sort of or why kind or why sometimes, but why really? If you had to boil it down, what's the one reason? When all the liquid's gone, what does entrepreneurship reduce to? For me it's this. You get to do things that no one else would give you permission to do. That's it. At least that's how I see it. I don't ask anyone's permission, seek anyone's permission or be granted anyone's permission. It ain't about getting rich. That's a crapshoot with terrible odds. It ain't about power influence. If you happen into those things, maybe they're a bonus. Although maybe they're not. And it's not just about doing the things you want to do or freedom. That definition skips the details. It's too broad. This is really about doing things that someone else wouldn't let you do if you had to ask. That's the one thing you get to do no matter what. It's about doing things that doesn't make sense. They don't fit into the obvious frameworks. They don't add up, line up or seem like they'll even hold up. It's those things, the unusual, the unjustifiable, the downright fun, regardless of what happens. That made me want to be an entrepreneur and to stay one too. Once those things go away, I'm out. There are millions of people better suited to follow your rules than me. But of course, this is a very specific breed of entrepreneurship. It's a bootstrapped one. It's one without a board of directors. It's one without an oversight body. It's one where no decks have to be developed and distributed around the table. One where you don't have to pitch something to someone else who's got something riding on your success. One where your gut is the only thing that's going to get punched if you're wrong. This is the fun in it for me. It's obviously a privilege, but more so an obligation. We must do things at Basecamp that no one else would let us do. If we don't, we aren't living up to the opportunity we have, the position we put ourselves in, the decisions we made to be this way and to stay this way. We must launch stuff that no one else would approve, name things in a way that would never fly if they had to go through a committee, stand for things that seem like you put yourself at odds with the bigger bottom line. We must leave money on the table because someone else will grab it all. We must. We must make things that could only come from us. It doesn't make them better or worse, it just makes them ours. And hopefully if you like what we're up to, then they're yours too. That's the reason." Oh, I read that. I was just like, "Oh my gosh, so many good quotes. So many things that should be on a T-shirt." So many things that I probably will be putting out a T-shirt maybe at Funnel Hacking Live or something. One of them, "There are a million people better suited to follow your rules than me." How cool is that? Talking about there's no board of directors, there's no one with an oversight. Every time you have an idea for something you want to create, you don't have to make a slide deck and send it to your board of directors. You don't have to pitch somebody every time you want to do something. You just get to do what you think is right. That's the power of entrepreneurship, of being bootstrapped. When Todd sent me this article, he said, "This is why VCs are the anti-entrepreneurship black hole. Ask your VC overlords for permission constantly. That's literally what it is. I have so many friends who've taken on money, who have VC backing, and they can't do anything. In fact, we had one partner we were trying to work with. They had a really cool software company. And we wanted to acquire and we didn't want to pay any money for it. We just wanted to take it over because they're struggling. They're not profitable. They're losing money. It's something that if we introduced to ClickFunnels community would blow up overnight. It's such a cool tool and so powerful. The founder, the entrepreneur, the owner was so excited and he understood and he said, "Yes. If you give me this salary and do this and this, I will give you a 100%. I'll let you guys take over the company, and I'll get paid a salary to keep doing it. You guys will blow it up and I'll get a profit share." It was such a good deal for him. It was amazing. Then he had to take it to his board, the investors who'd given money to the business and all the board members were like, "Why would you do that? It doesn't make any sense? He's like, "These guys are the greatest marketers of all time. They have a customer list of millions and millions people who would buy our software." You just try to explain to them everything. They're like, "It doesn't make sense. We're not going to let these guys just take over control of the company without giving us any money." They wouldn't do it. Unfortunately for him, in tears, he had called us and was just like, "I know this is the best deal for me and for the company and for the future, but I can't do it because the backers, the people who gave me money said no, and it's up to them." The VC overlords were not giving permission. That was the thing. If you want to be an entrepreneur, you have to protect yourself from that black hole, from taking on money where now people own your creativity. They own your ideas. They own everything. Where they can tell you yes or no, and you can't create. Anyway, I just wanted to read that to you because first off, Jason Fried is the man. Second off, This is like a manifesto for us bootstrapped entrepreneurs. I hope that you enjoyed it. I hope you loved it. With that said, thank you guys for listening. If you did enjoy this one, please take a screenshot on your phone, post it on Facebook, Instagram, or any of the places you post stuff and please tag me. I love seeing that you're actually listening to these things and you enjoy it. If you did get anything from this, please share this podcast with other people, other people who are like me and you who are bootstrapped entrepreneurs who are trying to take over the world. Thank you. I'll talk to you all again soon. Bye everybody. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices