New Kinship

Content warning: This episode includes discussions of suicidality.Simon Kent Fung is the creator and host of Dear Alana, a limited series podcast telling the story of Alana Chen, a devoutly Catholic young woman who wrestled with same-sex attraction alongside her faith before taking her own life in 2019. Simon found that Alana's journey with the Catholic faith and conversion therapies paralleled his own story in notable ways. On this episode, we talked with Simon about his experience of conversion therapy or “reparative therapy” for LGBTQ Christian people, the expectations and harms that accompany it, and what a healthy spiritual journey and community could be.Learn more about the podcast Dear Alana at http://dearalana.com.Learn more about Simon at http://simonkentfung.com.—★ Timestamps(00:00) #53 - Conversion Therapy's Legacy, with Simon Kent Fung from "Dear Alana”(02:20) The story of Dear Alana(13:28) Unpacking conversion/reparative therapy(28:24) Therapy: what we expect, what good things we need?(43:52) Leaving conversion therapy, identifying harms(55:23) Thinking now about "sexual orientation" as a concept(01:01:56) Finding a healthier spirituality through community(01:11:00) What, to you, is a good sexual ethic these days?—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship—★ CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

Our reasons for changing our name. Including: discussions of kinship, old and new commandments, belonging, mutual solidarity, and more.—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, or support!Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship—★ CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

Pastor Shalom is a multi-national Nigerian in a mixed-orientation marriage now in pastoral ministry. She has a profound journey of faith, marriage, and understanding her sexual identity. We were moved by her story and the strength of her love for God and others, so we asked her to share it with you all. Whether you see yourself in her story or are listening to learn about someone whose journey is very different from your own—we hope it’s an encouragement to you, too!★ About Our GuestPastor Shalom Liddick was born in Nigeria and spent some of her youth in Central America before moving to the United States. Her diverse background and rich cultural heritage have shaped her perspective on life and faith. She is most passionate about walking alongside others as they experience the sweetness found in Jesus. She considers herself a practicing theologian.—★ Timestamps(00:00) #52 - Affectionate towards Christ: A Journey of Faith with Pastor Shalom(02:15) Pastor Shalom's story(16:46) God became my everything(28:56) Who is my identifier?(36:31) Revoice: Little gifts of love from God(43:00) Conversations in the African diaspora: upholding (all?) Scripture(48:36) Attraction and mixed-orientation marriage(54:20) Not sexualizing relationships(58:53) Advice for those considering marriage?(01:01:36) What do you tell your kids?(01:04:14) Remember whose we are: LGBT gifts to the church(01:11:40) "We all have the same Father"—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship—★ CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin P., gavinpopkenart.com ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

David Bennett has a lot to say about erotic relationships with God—but it’s probably not what you think! As a former atheistic gay activist now turned celibate gay theologian and follower of Jesus, David’s reflections on Christian sexuality and discipleship are both personal and deeply informed by Christian historical tradition. David sat down with TJ and David Frank to talk about a theology of desire, Christian thinkers from Augustine to Aquinas to today, Side B activism, and practical discipleship for Christians today. Join us!Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides” in our conversation: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠—★ About Our GuestDr. David Bennett recently completed his doctorate (DPhil) in theology at Oxford University where he now works as a postdoctoral research fellow in the Theology and Religion Faculty. His thesis is in the process of being published, tentatively entitled, Queering the Queer: A Theological Ethics of Same-Sex Desire and Gay Celibacy in Contemporary Anglican Thought. He specializes in the relationship between the Trinity, Christian ethics, patristics, queer theology, discipleship and contemporary Anglican theology, especially the role of desire in knowing God. David also serves as a theologian in residence at Reality San Francisco and Church of the City, New York, and an Associate Research Fellow at Wycliffe Hall. Find him on Instagram or X (@DavidACBennett) or on his website at dacbennett.com.—★ Timestamps(00:00) Introduction(s)(05:00) The heart desires, the will chooses, the mind justifies(16:11) "You're just denying your sexuality" - defining “erotic”(25:45) How many kinds of love are there?(33:04) Eros and fear-of (or "Lutheran pietistic excess")(44:25) We need more Side B activism(56:58) What's going on with the Church of England?(01:13:20) Beyond an “ethic”: pursuing personal integration—★ Links and ReferencesEros and Agape (1930, 1936) by Anders Nygren (Wikipedia)Deus Caritas est (2005), Pope Benedict XVI (Wikipedia)—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support…Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship—★ CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin P. ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

Announcement: Hey ya’ll! We have a new podcast name! Welcome to New Kinship, formerly known as Communion and Shalom. We felt it was time for a more specifically focused name, with the same goal of focusing on the ways we belong to each other as Christians, as brothers and sisters, in the complexities of sexuality, ethnicity, and living in community. Join us as we wade into those complexities with people we both agree and disagree with.For our fiftieth episode (!), we’re sharing a recording from a workshop we gave at Revoice 2024 this year (a conference and ministry for queer/same-sex-attracted/LGBT Side B Christians who are seeking to support and encourage gay, lesbian, bisexual, and other same-sex attracted Christians—as well as those who love them—so that all in the Church might be empowered to live in gospel unity while observing the historic Christian doctrine of marriage and sexuality).Join us as we talk about two significant topics that we don’t hear discussed very much: kinship in lay, intentional Christian communities, and kinship in covenant brotherhoods and sisterhoods, celibate partnerships, and committed friendships. They’re historical, deeply Christian, radical, and somehow also totally normal—even if you’ve never heard of them till now.Check it out on Substack or YouTube if you’d like to see the slides we shared!—Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠—Timestamps(0:00) (Re)Discovering Kinship beyond Marriage(2:46) Outline of Our Talk: The Path before Us(3:47) Key Definitions and Ideas(4:47) Covenants(7:47) Why Now? Explaining Companionate Marriage(13:13) David's Investment into Community Living(15:53) TJ's Brotherhood Covenant(20:06) What is (Covenant) Community?(25:50) What's a Household?(33:59) Covenant Siblinghood(38:24) Types of Covenant Brotherhood(40:25) David and Jonathan(43:08) Ruth and Naomi(44:34) Walatta Petros and Eheta Kristos: Sisterhood between 17th Century Ethiopian Nuns(47:47) 20th Century Move to Celibacy(51:11) Advice for church leaders(52:29) Q&A—Links and References in This Episode* Bible Project on Covenants* Episode #19: A History of Romance in the West—Part 2 with Kathryn Mogk Wagner* Atlantic Article: “If the Nuclear Family Has Failed, What Comes Next?”* Check out the Nurturing Communities Network—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship—★ CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

It’s hard to know how to approach a topic that is simultaneously so personal and so full of theological implications. We, David Frank and TJ Espinoza, open up about our developing thoughts on trans experiences as it relates to the complexities of gender as both a social construct and part of biblical theology. In light of this, how might Christians consider ideas around third genders? How should they address violence against trans individuals? Are chosen pronouns an opportunity to manifest neighborliness or courage? Listen in as we try to lay some foundations, as we begin to wade into these sensitive challenges.__Timestamps(00:38) Today's snapshot: a preliminary-thoughts episode(06:43) Defining Transgender(08:00) Definitions and cultural uses of sex vs. gender(21:41) Acknowledging intersex(24:06) No violence is ever Christian(25:49) Pronouns, but we didn't get into it(26:43) Sex isn't a social construction, but gender is(32:43) "Third gender" concepts in different cultures(50:20) Questions we still have for trans people__If you like this podcast, please consider…→ Sharing feedback or questions! communionandshalom@gmail.com→ Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom→ Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom—CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ EspinozaAudio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)Podcast Manager: Elena Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

Transformation is a tricky word in Christian circles, particularly when we’re talking about sexuality. What does it mean to be “transformed”? For a gay man, does it mean “no longer gay”? And what does that mean??We talked with Nate Oyloe and Luca Jo Groppoli from Agape First Ministries, an organization dedicated to discipling and seeking God’s transformation. In our framing on this podcast, we would call their organization “side X”—that is, generally pursuing and seeing the good in people becoming “ex gay.” Since this isn’t a position we (David and TJ) hold, we were eager to have a conversation about our similarities and differences: personal stories, theological and pastoral approaches, and what the heck transformation could mean. It’s a tough one.—About Our GuestsPastor Nate Oyloe is the founder and director of Agape First Ministries. Nate has ministered to the sexually and relationally broken since 2000. He has taught nationally on issues of gender and the redemptive power of God. He and his wife, two sons, and daughter live in Minneapolis, MN.Luca Jo Groppoli is an ordained graduate of Christ for the Nation's Bible College. Luca serves as the associate director with Agape First Ministries and is passionate about disciple making and sharing that Jesus can and does, in fact, transform people, sharing her own story of living as a transgender male for over three decades.www.agapefirstministries.org—Note: This episode uses the terms “Side X” and “Side B” (and others) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out podcast episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠Timestamps(00:00) Intro(00:46) Introducing Nate and Luca(08:09) What has finding freedom meant to you?(10:59) Why Agape First? What is it you do?(17:04) What's the nature of same-sex attraction: psychological, traumatic, biological, spiritual?(36:10) Transformation: shifting away from same-sex attraction?(57:06) Praying for healing: over disabilities, over sexuality?(01:01:52) Statistics and experience: does being "ex-gay" actually stick?(01:09:58) Is side B more dangerous than side A?—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship—★ CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

Join us for a special in-person episode where we, TJ and David, share highlights and insights from our time at the Revoice Conference. We discuss the conference's mission, our personal experiences, and key takeaways on fostering community and kinship within the church. Honestly, words utterly fail to express all that Revoice meant for us and the other 500+ who attended.Highlights mentioned:* Times of Worship * Worship Leader Wes* Misty Irons and David Bennet* Affinity Groups* Breakout engagement* Hospitality and overall conference schedule* Connecting with incredible peopleA few other highlights not mentioned:* Multicultural leadership* Multilingual and ASL representation* Breakout by Sister Heather Kristine* Brenna Blain’s Francis Chan vibes- Link to Revoice Conference videos (free for one year!): https://revoicelibrary.sardius.live/—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship—★ CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

Coming in hot, folks… David Frank and TJ Espinoza reflect on sex positivity and how they see parts of the Christian Bible interacting with sexual desire, goodness, transcendence, and meaning. There’s nothing simple about the relationships between sex, marriage, having kids, pleasure, and our spiritual callings. But in those tensions, we also see goodness and fruitfulness. We hope that this discussion prompts more thinking for you all on what a comprehensive Christian sexual ethic can look like. See also: David's writing: Contemplative Prayer on Sex and Its Future https://newkinship.substack.com/p/a-prayer-of-contemplation-on-sexThis episode includes content suitable for adult audiences; listener discretion is advised.Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠.__________Timestamps(03:23) What Sex Positive Usually Means(10:48) Evangelical Churches Are Just As Pro-Sex(16:55) Genesis, Song of Songs, Leviticus, Matthew, Revelation(17:51) Sexual Difference in the Garden (Genesis)(19:02) Consent Is Biblical (1st Corinthians)(20:13) Erotic Poetry Isn't Smut (Song of Songs)(26:04) Sex Is...Transcendent?...But NOT Worship (Leviticus)(45:33) Jesus: Yeah, but... there's no marriage in heaven (Matthew)(51:32) The (Sexless?) Bride of Christ (Revelation)(53:31) Let's Hear It for... Sex Mediocrity!__________Links and ReferencesWe referenced these sections of the Bible in this episode:* Genesis 2-3* Songs of Songs/Solomon (whole book)* Leviticus 15:18* Matthew 22:30* Revelation 19* James 1:17* Isaiah 56:3-5__________If you like this podcast, please consider…→Sharing feedback or questions! communionandshalom@gmail.com→Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/newkinship→Following us on Instagram! @newkinship—CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ EspinozaAudio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)Podcast Manager: Elena Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

Coming right up, some hot takes from Greg Coles on:* Why would you call yourself gay if you’re a Christian? That’s not your identity…* Wouldn’t it be better if you got married (to someone of the opposite sex)?* How do I talk to [person] about [LGBTQ sexuality topic we disagree on]?If you are gay and Christian, or know someone who’s gay and a Christian, somebody in your life is asking these questions, and a whole lot more. This episode is for you, for sharing, and for further discussion.Background: In Spring 2024, Greg Coles talked with a group of college students and campus ministers. We thought it was such a great primer on thinking Christianly about sexuality that we wanted to share it with you, slightly echo-y room and all.This is not the end of the conversation—please reach out with your questions, comments, and further discussion!About Our GuestGreg is the author of Single, Gay, Christian: A Personal Journey of Faith and Sexual Identity and No Longer Strangers: Finding Belonging in a World of Alienation. You can find most of his creative activities curated at gregorycoles.com and at The Center for Faith, Sexuality & Gender.__________Timestamps(02:42) Greg on writing Single, Gay, Christian and his PhD(05:01) Why use "gay" to describe yourself as a Christian?(09:34) A vision for marriage-free abstinence and delight in the body(17:01) Theological vs practical questions on sexuality(20:30) Changes in sexual orientation: happens? is normative? Mixed orientation marriages?(25:12) Marriage and singleness as complements(30:08) How am I a gift to the body around me?(33:16) Q&A: Straight Catholic priests can CHOOSE celibacy or marriage(37:05) Q&A: Concerns about taking the identity of being gay(43:13) Q&A: How do I love my lesbian sister well?(46:53) Q&A: Discipleship convos: I can't believe in Jesus if it means THIS for LGBTQ people...(51:46) Q&A: Sharing the gospel in an identity politics world__________Links and ReferencesGay and Catholic and Tenderness by Eve Tushnet__________If you like this podcast, please consider…→Sharing feedback or questions! communionandshalom@gmail.com→Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom→Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom—CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ EspinozaAudio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)Podcast Manager: Elena Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe