New Kinship

David Frank and TJ talked with historian Dr. Dan Hummel about why many Evangelical Christians support the modern state of Israel—and its implications for kinship between Christians and Jews. Dan traces the theological roots of Christian Zionism, the rise of dispensational theology, and some political and social effects we see today. We also covered how Christians have related to Jewish communities more broadly, and what kinship can or should look like for us, going forward.★ About Our GuestDaniel G. Hummel is the director of the Lumen Center in Madison, WI and a research fellow in the History Department at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. He received his PhD in American Religious History from UW-Madison. He is the author of The Rise and Fall of Dispensationalism: How the Evangelical Battle Over the End Times Shaped a Nation (Eerdmans, 2023) and *Covenant Brothers: Evangelicals, Jews, and U.S.-Israeli Relations* (University of Pennsylvania Press, 2019). You can also find him at www.danielghummel.com.—★ Timestamps(00:00) #75 - Christian-Jewish Kinship and Theology: Dan Hummel on Christian Zionism(03:24) Dan’s history with Israel and Evangelicals(09:50) Ask an academic: define “evangelical”(13:47) Ask an academic: define “Christian Zionism”(17:31) Christian Zionism goes back to the 16th century(20:54) What IS dispensationalism?(25:13) Dispensationalism: So, is God a polygamist?(28:08) What does “supporting Israel” mean to Christian Zionists?(33:04) Zionism also relates: Judeo-Christian values, anti-Islam, American politics(39:21) What theology is needed, to be pro-peace for Israel/Palestine? (47:27) How can, and should, Christians think about their relationship to Jews? (01:00:50) Final thoughts: What we hold sacred—★ Links and References* The “Bebbington Quadrilateral” - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_W._Bebbington* For some of the political dynamics to Christian Zionism, see Dr. Hummel’s article in New Lines Magazine on the political unrest in Israel, pre-Oct 7: newlinesmag.com/argument/israels-current-crisis-exposes-christian-zionisms-contradictory-ideals* For some theological and interfaith dimensions of Christian Zionism, see Dr. Hummel’s 2018 essay for Aeon: aeon.co/essays/christian-zionism-the-interfaith-movement-hiding-in-plain-sight* G. Douglas Young, the founder of Bridges for Peace, a prominent Christian Zionist organization, wrote The Bride and the Wife (1960).—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support || Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship—★ Credits || Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

Taka Chan has been a queer, celibate Christian in campus ministry long enough to have seen both deep friendships and losses. He joined David and TJ to share stories of friends, pastors, and communities who have walked with him—and those who haven’t. We hope you’re encouraged by his reflections on God’s provision, even in the midst of uncertainty about what comes next.Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠About Our GuestTaka Chan was born and raised in rural Hawaiʻi and has been working in college campus ministry for 18 years. He loves gardening, cooking for large groups of people, and taking classes at the Y with a bunch of grandmas. Ask him about his recent TV binges (The Pitt, Pachinko, Abbott Elementary) and what homework he’d suggest if you intend to visit Hawaiʻi. You can email him at [takachanaloha -at- gmail.com].—★ Timestamps(00:00) #74 - “If We Say We Love LGBT People...” Taka Chan on College Ministry and Faithfulness(01:11) Taka Chan: Hawai’i, family, coming out to myself and others(06:55) College in the time of ex-gay thought(11:55) “I try to be gentle with my younger self”(18:00) Single and married to everyone(23:49) Pastors going to bat for you(32:02) What do you do when friendships fail?(41:30) Evangelical ministry: If we’re saying we love LGBT people...how?(56:17) An employee resource group: we won’t be frozen in fear any more(01:00:46) Intersections: Being queer, being Japanese and Chinese(01:07:52) Why are you not Side A?(01:11:55) Being an “elder” in the Side B movement, and those who came before(01:15:20) What’s the future for you? (Intentional community?)—★ Links and ReferencesTwo Views on Homosexuality, the Bible, and the Church (2016)—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!:Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship or newkinship.substack.com—★ CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

Sometimes--as in the case of Rev. Zach from Ep. 73--we record an episode with folks and then, before we can release it, life takes interesting turns. Since talking to us 6 months ago, Zach is in the process of leaving the Episcopal denomination in the US and considering his ministerial call in a new way. He stopped by (metaphorically) to update us and share some more thoughts. We’re grateful for his ongoing discernment and willingness to bring us along! Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

Reverend Zach joins TJ and David to share his unexpected journey from being in a same-sex marriage (Side A) to embracing a historic Christian sexual ethic (Side B). Raised Roman Catholic and shaped by a call to ministry, Zach talked about the questions that surfaced during seminary, how getting married changed his understanding of marriage, his longing for friendship, and the theologians and writers who shaped his thinking.We appreciate Rev. Zach’s honesty, insight, and experience with navigating life and ministry as a Side B priest in a largely Side A denomination.—What’s happened since? Come back on 12/11 for a bonus follow-up episode from Zach since this episode: https://open.substack.com/pub/newkinship/p/bonus-catching-up-with-zach-6-months —Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠—★ About Our GuestRev. Zach ministers to the people of Long Island, NY and recently wrapped up his chaplaincy residency at Stony Brook University Hospital. You’ll most likely find him deep in a Jacques Ellul book or rooting for his favorite team, the Detroit Tigers. You can contact him on Instagram: @zach_enthusiastic—★ Timestamps(00:00) #73 - Theologies of Marriage and Friendship: Rev. Zach’s Story from Side A to Side B(02:10) How old are you? And other awkward life questions(17:53) A call to the priesthood(27:13) “Have you heard of Wesley Hill?” (and many others)(35:12) William Stringfellow had a big impact(41:44) Becoming Side B, engaging Side A(48:47) Was the breakup more relational or theological?(55:27) It’s about the covenantal nature of God(59:58) Does your Episcopalian church know you’re side B?(01:05:01) Why stay in a “big tent” church?(01:08:03) Beyond Side A: What does a marriage covenant mean?—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship—★ CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

Dear listeners, join me on a special story with my neighbor Martina. She has fled to the US as an asylum-seeker in fear of her life from persecution and murderous extortion. Since then, she’s become not only a friend, but a partner in neighborhood hospitality and church community! Her ability to stay here is literally a matter of life and death, so some friends and I raised funds to help cover her legal fees so she could be represented in immigration court and fight to stay here. I'm grateful to God for all who helped leverage their resources to support this case. Thanks friends!Sincerely, David—★ Timestamps(00:00) Introduction to Martina’s Story(04:15) Martina’s Life in Ecuador(05:31) Martina’s Entrepreneurial Journey(12:21) Facing Extortion and Corruption(21:18) Fleeing to the United States(22:24) Life in the United States(25:04) Finding Hope and Community(34:08) Reflections and Future Hopes Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

Dr. Julia Sadusky, a Catholic and licensed psychologist from Colorado, joins David and TJ to unpack the Chiles vs. Salazar Supreme Court case and what’s behind the debates around conversion therapy. Julia talks about how she brings together her faith and psychology, and why—as a conservative Christian—she chose to support Colorado’s ban on “conversion therapy” for minors, through an amicus brief.We are grateful for the nuance and clarity Julia offers in this (often heated and stressful) conflict in the courts and in our church circles, and we invite you to take that same posture of openness and care, as you listen.★ About Our GuestDr. Julia Sadusky is a licensed clinical psychologist and the owner of a private practice in Littleton, CO. She is also an author, consultant, speaker, and adjunct professor. Dr. Sadusky has done extensive research and clinical work in sexual and gender development and specializes in trauma-informed care. She earned a bachelor’s degree from Ave Maria University and a master’s degree and doctorate in Clinical Psychology from Regent University. She has authored several books around human sexuality, with her most recent two-book series entitled, “Start Talking to Your Kids about Sex: A Practical Guide for Catholics” (Ave Maria Press, 2023) and “Talking with Your Teen about Sex: A Practical Guide for Catholics” (Ave Maria Press, 2024). You can find her at juliasadusky.com.—Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A,” “Side B,” and “Side X” as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to that conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠—★ Timestamps(00:00) Quick intro, Side A, Side B, Side X(02:58) Introducing Julia: Now you know a psychologist from Delaware(06:17) How (can) psychology and Christian faith go together(08:17) What is conversion therapy?(12:33) Conversion therapy success rates? Digging into Joseph Nicolosi’s research(22:47) What about “reintegrative therapy”? Measuring “change in attraction”(25:59) History of changing diagnoses, reports on conversion therapy(29:21) OK, so, the current case: Chiles vs. Salazar(40:40) Is this more about conversion therapy? or religious freedom? Is therapy “speech”?(45:58) How do contemporary trans politics overlap (or hype) this case?—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support || Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship—★ Credits || Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

What is the nature of sin and desire? At a theological level?We’re diving in with Joel Carini (from The Natural Theologian) for a theological conversation about desire, sin, attraction, and the resources that the reformed theological tradition has (or doesn’t have) for same-sex-attracted, celibate Christians. Also includes: comparisons to psychology vs. biblical counseling, and how Harry Potter had comparable challenges.—Note: We use the terms “Side A” and “Side B” as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, here’s a quick explanation. We also recommend listening to our episode #3, “A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality.”* “Side A” generally refers to the perspective that affirms God can bless same-sex marriage and sexual relationships.Sides B, X, and Y all represent perspectives that uphold the historic Christian sexual ethic of marriage between a man and a woman, and sex within marriage. Specific perspectives differ beyond that:* “Side B” recognizes people experience same-sex sexual attraction and may describe that experience by a variety of words or identity terms while still holding to the historical Christian sexual ethic.* ”Side X” tends to emphasize the possibility of sexual orientation change, and ministers to gay people toward the aim of being “ex gay.”* “Side Y” tends to avoid naming any kind of identity language associated with LGBT concerns, with the goal of not taking on an identity of being “gay.”★ About Our GuestJoel Carini is a Ph.D. candidate in philosophy at Saint Louis University. He holds an MDiv from Westminster Theological Seminary and an MA from the University of Chicago. He publishes regularly at his Substack and YouTube at The Natural Theologian.Joel’s previous episode on New Kinship is: #29 - Weigh and Consider the World: Joel Carini on Nature, Truth, and Side B—★ Timestamps(00:00) #71 – Can Desire Be Redeemed? Joel Carini on Sin, Psychology, and the Reformed Imagination(00:46) Becoming a straight ally and public thinker(08:20) The tone of the Christian conversation at Wheaton(16:09) Why might someone take on “Side Y”?(26:27) Are some desires categorically sinful? Could Jesus have even possibly sinned?(37:39) Theology (and psychology) from nature? vs. a “Biblicist” approach. Plus Harry Potter + Voldemort.(55:39) “Original sin” as a disease?(01:06:42) Advice for engaging Side Y perspectives(01:13:49) Vision for the future of the “Side B project”—★ Links and References* Video: Tim Keller and Kevin DeYoung on the PCA’s Report on Human Sexuality (2021): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JWQPFvtzck* Joel’s interview episode with Colton Beach: The Christian Life: A Walk in the Park? A Conversation with a Gay Christian* A Quiet Mind to Suffer With by John Andrew Bryant (2023).* Anna Carini’s podcast episode of Consult the Counselor, on OCD: Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (July 1, 2025)Some names dropped, for your easier internet searching :) of course: Ulrich Zwingli was a reformer of the Protestant Reformation; Philip Ryken is president of Wheaton College; Harry Potter and Voldemort is a fantasy book that…should not be hard to find.—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support: Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship—★ CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

David, Lakshmi, and Erin dig into the intersection of wealth, faith, and community, particularly from the standpoint of middle-class Christians. Sparked by Lakshmi’s seminary research on Christian engagement with wealth accumulation in a neoliberal capitalist system, we explored theological and practical approaches to wealth: What does it mean to have or accumulate wealth? What are the impacts of capitalism? the role of intentional Christian communities? and the balance between personal finances and larger systemic (in)justice? Can we create alternative economic systems grounded in Christian values of mutuality and relationship?Check out Lakshmi’s work on communities at her Substack Dwelling Place!★ Resources/Links/References:* Wealth as Peril and Obligation by Sandra Eli Wheeler * The Principle of Maximums by Roger L. Stichter* True Riches by John Cortines and Gregory Baumer* Beyond Charity by John Perkins* The Life You Can Save by Peter Singer* Practicing the King’s Economy by Michael Rhodes, Robby Holt, and Brian Fikkert* The Unjust Steward: Wealth, Poverty, and the Church Today by Escobar, Miguel* When God Made You by Matthew Paul Turner (illustrated by David Catrow)★ Timestamps(00:00) Introduction and Guest Introductions(01:37) Lakshmi’s Journey and Thoughts on Wealth(03:33) Erin’s Perspective on Wealth and Justice(05:10) Who Is Wealthy? (09:45) New Challenges in Neoliberal Capitalism(12:32) Community and Economic Systems(23:49)  Wealth as Peril and Obligation according to the New Testament(27:32) Possessions, Wealth and Practical Faithfulness(33:53) Joy beyond Guilt(35:47) Approaches to Faith and Wealth(40:16) Personality, Character, and Wealth(48:44) Challenging Assumptions About Wealth and Virtue(49:52) Economic Justice and Personal Responsibility(50:59) Middle Class Mindset and Community Investment(52:38) Navigating Power Dynamics in Personal Relationships(53:36) The Role of Reciprocity in Building Community(54:56) Class Perception and Social Mobility(01:03:44) Intentional Christian Communities and Wealth(01:05:45) Effective Altruism vs. Relational Giving(01:07:19) Is Guilt Good for Generosity?(01:09:35) The Importance of Relocation and Local Impact(01:17:53) Final Reflections on Wealth and Responsibility—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support! || Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship—★ Credits || Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

“ In our society is a big assumption that what it means to be truly, fully human is to not need other people… So you face a choice: is it fundamentally a bad thing to be a person? Or, is our account of a person as ‘someone who’s independent and autonomous’ fundamentally untrue? And [if so] we have to make room for our genuine neediness in our account of what it means to be human and what we owe to each other.”Author Leah Libresco Sargeant joined New Kinship to talk about building community, relationships, and need. We discussed practical ways of building Christian community from her second book, Building the Benedict Option: A Guide to Gathering Two or Three Together in His Name. And we dived into her just-released third book, The Dignity of Dependence: A Feminist Manifesto, about an anthropology of need, justice, and care.Vulnerability, it turns out, isn’t just for women/children/elders/the weak. It’s for all of us.★ About Our GuestLeah Libresco Sargeant is the author of The Dignity of Dependence (as well as Arriving at Amen and Building the Benedict Option). She runs the Substack Other Feminisms, which focuses on how to advocate for women as women in a world that makes an idol of autonomy. She lives in Maryland and works in family policy in D.C.—★ Timestamps(00:00) #70 - Who’s Afraid of Dependence? with Leah Libresco Sargeant(05:09) Overview: Building the Benedict Option - generating community(16:28) Catholic resources for building neighborhood community(26:50) What we give up, for community(30:08) Overview: The Dignity of Dependence(33:27) “Personalism” and recommended sources(36:12) Equality of men and women ≠ interchangeability(40:47) Does dependence rely on hierarchy relationships?(43:19) How we measure labor with market logic (and shouldn’t)(49:44) Women’s “porous” experience of the world, and our theology of the church as feminine—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship—★ CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

“Paul [in 1st Corinthians] really does seem to think that what I do with my body, Christ has done with his body. Like, when I use my body to abuse other people, I have taken Christ's body and used it to abuse people, which for a Christian is the maximum sacrilege that you could do. But when I do something loving or caring or giving… I have taken Jesus' body and blessed others with it.”So.You heard part 1. (If not, it’s here: #68 - The Christian Story of Sex and Marriage, with Tyler Parker (Part 1))Now you’re back for part 2. We’ve got a lot more for you:Join us for the tour through Numbers, Deuteronomy, the Gospels, Romans, and 1st Corinthians… We touch on themes of idolatry, adultery, how Jesus was super single, and what this means for… well, anyone with a body: single or married, straight or sexual minorities, broken and definitely beautiful.Please listen and then send your comments, questions, disagreements, and general angst. Links below. We’d love to hear from you!(For those of us less attuned to sarcasm: If you email the gmail address Tyler named at the end of this episode, the poor guy on the other end of that email will not know what you’re talking about. 😆 Please just contact TJ, or any of us, at the email and Substack links below!)—Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠—★ Timestamps(00:00) #69 - The Christian Story of Sex and Marriage with Tyler Parker (Part 2)(00:15) A quick summary of Part 1(02:43) "Tselem"=little statues, images of God(07:29) Paul on conjugal rights: How consent images God (and coercion does not)(16:07) Deuteronomy: "For the sake of the world who is watching..."(27:48) Idolatry: "I don't want you to settle for less(er gods)"(34:06) Numbers: the tie between idolatry and adultery(39:22) Paul in Romans 1: When we worship a creature instead(52:33) So...what does this mean for Side B? How Jesus was single(01:04:52) "Sex is not the only way I can use my body to demonstrate God in the world."(01:11:38) "We're gonna fuse bodies..."(01:14:28) Marriage as a metaphor for God, and its limits—★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship—★ CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe