#71 – Can Desire Be Redeemed? Joel Carini on Sin, Psychology, and the Reformed Imagination

What is the nature of sin and desire? At a theological level?

We’re diving in with Joel Carini (from The Natural Theologian) for a theological conversation about desire, sin, attraction, and the resources that the reformed theological tradition has (or doesn’t have) for same-sex-attracted, celibate Christians. Also includes: comparisons to psychology vs. biblical counseling, and how Harry Potter had comparable challenges.

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Note: We use the terms “Side A” and “Side B” as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, here’s a quick explanation. We also recommend listening to our episode #3, “A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality.”

* “Side A” generally refers to the perspective that affirms God can bless same-sex marriage and sexual relationships.

Sides B, X, and Y all represent perspectives that uphold the historic Christian sexual ethic of marriage between a man and a woman, and sex within marriage. Specific perspectives differ beyond that:

* “Side B” recognizes people experience same-sex sexual attraction and may describe that experience by a variety of words or identity terms while still holding to the historical Christian sexual ethic.

* ”Side X” tends to emphasize the possibility of sexual orientation change, and ministers to gay people toward the aim of being “ex gay.”

* “Side Y” tends to avoid naming any kind of identity language associated with LGBT concerns, with the goal of not taking on an identity of being “gay.”

★ About Our Guest

Joel Carini is a Ph.D. candidate in philosophy at Saint Louis University. He holds an MDiv from Westminster Theological Seminary and an MA from the University of Chicago. He publishes regularly at his Substack and YouTube at The Natural Theologian.

Joel’s previous episode on New Kinship is: #29 - Weigh and Consider the World: Joel Carini on Nature, Truth, and Side B

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #71 – Can Desire Be Redeemed? Joel Carini on Sin, Psychology, and the Reformed Imagination

(00:46) Becoming a straight ally and public thinker

(08:20) The tone of the Christian conversation at Wheaton

(16:09) Why might someone take on “Side Y”?

(26:27) Are some desires categorically sinful? Could Jesus have even possibly sinned?

(37:39) Theology (and psychology) from nature? vs. a “Biblicist” approach. Plus Harry Potter + Voldemort.

(55:39) “Original sin” as a disease?

(01:06:42) Advice for engaging Side Y perspectives

(01:13:49) Vision for the future of the “Side B project”

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★ Links and References

* Video: Tim Keller and Kevin DeYoung on the PCA’s Report on Human Sexuality (2021): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JWQPFvtzck

* Joel’s interview episode with Colton Beach: The Christian Life: A Walk in the Park? A Conversation with a Gay Christian

* A Quiet Mind to Suffer With by John Andrew Bryant (2023).

* Anna Carini’s podcast episode of Consult the Counselor, on OCD: Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (July 1, 2025)

Some names dropped, for your easier internet searching :) of course: Ulrich Zwingli was a reformer of the Protestant Reformation; Philip Ryken is president of Wheaton College; Harry Potter and Voldemort is a fantasy book that…should not be hard to find.

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support: Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

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★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

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