

This Week In Digital Trust
elevenM
Regular conversations about tech policy, privacy, cyber security, AI safety and everything in between.
This Week In Digital Trust is hosted by Arjun Ramachandran and Jordan Wilson-Otto, self-described technology enthusiasts with a passion for ensuring the use of technology leads to the best outcomes for humanity.
Arjun and Jordan are Principals at elevenM, a specialist AI, privacy, cyber security and data governance consultancy in Australia. Arjun is a strategic communications expert and former journalist. Jordan is an expert in privacy regulation, policy development and program management.
This Week In Digital Trust is hosted by Arjun Ramachandran and Jordan Wilson-Otto, self-described technology enthusiasts with a passion for ensuring the use of technology leads to the best outcomes for humanity.
Arjun and Jordan are Principals at elevenM, a specialist AI, privacy, cyber security and data governance consultancy in Australia. Arjun is a strategic communications expert and former journalist. Jordan is an expert in privacy regulation, policy development and program management.
Episodes
Mentioned books

Oct 10, 2022 • 27min
#35 Once more unto the breach (the Optus one, that is)
This week, Arj and Jordan give their views on the strategic and policy takeaways from the now infamous Optus breach. They explore a philosophical shift in business attitudes to data, proposed legislative reforms, and the broader cultural shift needed in how we collectively approach the building of technology.
Links:
Jeremy Kirk reporting https://www.bankinfosecurity.com/optus-under-1-million-extortion-threat-in-data-breach-a-20142
Jeremy Kirk on Twitter https://twitter.com/jeremy_kirk/status/1573652986437726208?s=21&t=5kqrqoy-kIEnnvUh0YavOQ
Data is the new asbestos (InnovationAus) https://www.innovationaus.com/data-is-the-new-asbestos-optus-hack-renews-calls-for-privacy-reform/
Clare O’Neil on 7.30 report https://www.abc.net.au/7.30/home-affairs-minister,-clare-o%E2%80%99neil,-speaks-on-the/14066184
Credits:
Music by Bensound.com

Oct 3, 2022 • 26min
#34 What is data ethics?
In this special episode of This Week in Digital Trust we feature an interview by our friend Jonathan Gadir with Chris Dolman, executive manager for Data and Algorithmic Ethics at IAG.
Jonathan and Chris discuss the place of data ethics within organisations, how to break down the AI and data ethics risks, and how to think about the governance of these risks. They also use real-world example to illustrate and explore some of the common factors that lead to data ethics risks, such as "poor proxies" and "false causality".
Links:
Chris Dolman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cdolman/
Gradient Institute: https://www.gradientinstitute.org/
Gradient Institute report 'De-Risking Automated Decisions' https://www.gradientinstitute.org/assets/gradient_minderoo_report.pdf
Jonathan Gadir on Twitter https://twitter.com/jonoloosecannon
Credits:
Music by Bensound.com

Sep 27, 2022 • 24min
#33 When the law is not enough
This week, Arj and Jordan explore why privacy and data protection laws sometimes fall short of delivering the outcomes we need and desire - especially those crafted using a principle-based approach.
The discussion follows another insightful paper by UNSW law academic Katherine Kemp on the continued practice of ‘data enrichment’, which Prof. Kemp argues is illegal.
They also discuss the failed compliance of law enforcement agencies with laws that allow them to access private data.
Links:
Katherine Kemp paper "Australia’s Forgotten Privacy Principle" https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4224653
Katherine Kemp oped https://www.choice.com.au/consumers-and-data/protecting-your-data/data-laws-and-regulation/articles/why-we-need-to-enforce-laws-against-data-enrichment
Australian Law Reform Commission report https://www.alrc.gov.au/publication/for-your-information-australian-privacy-law-and-practice-alrc-report-108/
Report on Commonwealth ombudsman review (Saturday Paper) https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/news/politics/2022/09/17/pretty-creepy-agencies-illegally-obtained-emails-voicemails-and-texts#hrd
Credits:
Music by Bensound.com

Sep 21, 2022 • 25min
#32 Internet Idol - a contest for the future of cyberspace
It's been labelled “the most important election you’ve never heard of”.
This week, Arj and Jordan dive into an upcoming debate over the election of the next secretary-general of the International Telecommunication Union, a 150-year-old body that has been pivotal in the setting of internet standards and policy.
The backdrop is a fascinating discussion about whether the long-held Western vision of an open, global, free and secure internet is now over, as more anti-democratic regimes clamp down on networks and platforms in their jursidictions, while Western governments themselves seek new ways to fix the ills of an unregulated internet.
Links:
White House Listening Session on Tech Platform Accountability https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2022/09/08/readout-of-white-house-listening-session-on-tech-platform-accountability/
Council on Foreign Relations report - Confronting Reality in Cyberspace: Foreign Policy for a Fragmented Internet https://www.cfr.org/report/confronting-reality-in-cyberspace
Report on ITU election (SMH) https://www.smh.com.au/technology/future-of-cyberspace-on-the-line-as-us-russia-square-off-20220910-p5bh27.html
Credits:
Music by Bensound.com

Sep 13, 2022 • 24min
#31 Our data is girt by sea
Should companies be forced to host all data about Australian citizens onshore? With debates about data localisation kicking off all over the globe, Arj and Jordan this week unpack the issues surrounding this policy.
They also discuss the normalising of surveillance technologies among young people, after a Sydney school introduced fingerprint scanners for access to bathrooms.
Links:
Home Affairs discussion paper https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/reports-and-pubs/files/data-security/nds-action-plan.pdf
Tech companies on data localisation (InnovationAus): https://www.innovationaus.com/tech-giants-rally-against-data-localisation-in-australia/
ABC News story on fingerprint scanners at schools https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-09-06/moorebank-high-school-fingerprints-students-going-to-toilet/101410544
Drones with tasers https://7news.com.au/news/crime/taser-armed-drones-a-crackpot-idea-c-7048891
Salinger blog post on fingerprint scanning https://www.salingerprivacy.com.au/2022/09/07/finger-scanning/
Credits:
Music by Bensound.com

Sep 6, 2022 • 27min
#30 You can call me AI
What actually *is* AI? Is the term meaningful? Is it always the best answer?
This week, Arj and Jordan explore how technologies like AI and machine learning are being approached, and the growing tendency towards "AI solutionism". They also discuss a couple of provocative proposals to entirely abandon the use of the term "AI", and how this might aid our approach to problem solving and policymaking.
Links:
ABC News story on botched aged care AI trial https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-08-31/aged-care-cctv-trial-artificial-intelligence-false-reports/101390952
Ellen Broad article on use of "artificial intelligence" as a term https://www.innovationaus.com/we-need-to-let-go-of-regulating-artificial-intelligence/
Center on Privacy & Technology announcement to stop using terms “artificial intelligence,” “AI,” and “machine learning” https://medium.com/center-on-privacy-technology/artifice-and-intelligence%C2%B9-f00da128d3cd
XKCD "Here to Help" https://xkcd.com/1831/
Credits:
Music by Bensound.com

Aug 30, 2022 • 23min
#29 Unscrambling the cyber strategy egg + the moths still drawn to the flame of facial recognition
This week, Arj and Jordan discuss the merits of the Albanese Government's decision to overhaul the previous government's national cyber security strategy, which included the eye-catching $10 billion funding allocation for Project REDSPICE.
They also discuss why organisations continue to consider facial recognition, in spite of the intense uproar over its use in recent weeks and months. This comes as ClubsACT considers trialling the technology in pubs and clubs to enforce self-exclusion requests from problem gamblers.
Links:
IT News story on cyber strategy overhaul https://www.itnews.com.au/news/government-re-launches-cyber-security-strategy-584180
ABC story about facial recognition trial in ACT https://www.abc.net.au/canberra/programs/drive/facial-recognition-clubs-act/101350722
Credits:
Music by Bensound.com

Aug 22, 2022 • 25min
#28 When knowing you is not enough
This week, Arj and Jordan discuss what it means to be identified online. Does a company "know" you if they can't link the data they hold about you to your real world identity, but can still tell that you're the same person moving from one online service to another? What does our concept of what it means to be identified mean for how privacy is regulated and enforced?
Links:
Katherine Kemp paper on online tracking by media companies https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4141609
$60m penalty against Google https://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/google-llc-to-pay-60-million-for-misleading-representations
Credits:
Music by Bensound.com

Aug 15, 2022 • 32min
#27 Privacy in Israel
In this special episode of This Week in Digital Trust we feature an interview by our friend Jonathan Gadir with Avishai Ostrin, a director with Israeli privacy consulting firm PrivacyTeam.
Jonathan and Avishai explore the differing attitudes and approaches to privacy in Israel, many of which stem from underlying cultural attitudes. They also discuss what it's like to be a privacy advocate in a very security-focused nation, and developments involving Israeli spyware company, NSO Group.
Links:
Avishai Ostrin on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/avishaiostrin/
PrivacyTeam: https://www.privacyteam.com/
Washington Post story on US firm ending talks to buy Israeli spyware company https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/07/10/nso-spyware-l3harris-talks-ended/
Twitter: Jonathan Gadir https://mobile.twitter.com/jonoloosecannon
Credits:
Music by Bensound.com

Aug 4, 2022 • 27min
#26 Arrival at the promised land or a deal with the devil? Federal privacy law lands in the US
This week, Arj and Jordan discuss the merits of the proposed new federal privacy law in the US. Also this week - a new once-in-a-decade report from CSIRO also lays out seven megatrends to shape our future, three of which fall squarely into the realm of technology, digital policy and other favourite topics of the podcast.
Links:
IAPP coverage of American Data Privacy and Protection Act https://iapp.org/news/a/american-data-privacy-and-protection-act-heads-for-us-house-floor/
Daniel Solove opinion on federal privacy law: https://teachprivacy.com/a-faustian-bargain-is-preemption-too-high-a-price-for-a-federal-privacy-law/
Woodrow Hartzog and Neil Richards on a duty of loyalty: https://iapp.org/news/a/were-so-close-to-getting-data-loyalty-right/
Algorithm Watch on algorithmic bias in Google and Facebook ads: https://algorithmwatch.org/en/automated-discrimination-facebook-google/
CSIRO report "Our Future World": https://www.csiro.au/en/research/technology-space/data/Our-Future-World
Credits:
Music by Bensound.com