Sexvangelicals

We're continuing our conversation about consent on Sexvangelicals. Julia made a comment on this week’s episode that consent is simultaneously easy and extremely difficult to navigate. I mean, we want consent to be an easy, straightforward thing. And when there are clear intentions to use sexuality as a way to physically and emotionally hurt and violate other people, the line between consent and non-consent becomes pretty straightforward. However, if we think about consent not as attorneys do, as a yes/no binary, consent was or wasn’t given, but more as a relational process, a dialogue, a conversation, here’s where things become a bit more complicated. We continue to talk about the nuances of consent in part 2 of our episode. We also provide Relationship 101 on how to use some of the principles of consent in your sexual relationships. Expressing desire (7:45): Julia says, “Because being able to express desire for sexuality is an important part of consent. Consent is the negotiation of pleasure.” Unfortunately, due to the shaming of sexuality in the church and performance of gender roles, neither she nor her ex were able to communicate their desire for sexuality, to the detriment of the relationship. The church’s myths about consent (12:00): We name three myths about consent. 1) The frequency of sex and the performance of sex is an indicator of relational health (12:45). 2) Men are expected to take over, and women want men to take over (17:30). 3) Men are sexual aggressors, and women are expected to be passive recipients (24:00). Relationship 101: How to practice affirmative consent, particularly if talking about sex is new (31:30): We name five specific tips. 1) Plan a time and place (31:50). 2) Pick a specific topic and use specific resources to help out, if necessary (32:30). 3) Set a limit to the amount of time you talk about this (34:25). 4) Celebrate the ends of conversations together (35:15). 5) Use a safe word if things get too overwhelming (37:05). Julia concludes, “You might even be apprehensive about having a conversation about sex, so check in along the way.” Consent is ultimately about conversation and dialogue, not just during the actual sexual experience, but before and after genital play happens. Let’s heal together!

After our month-long foray into the disturbing literature from the Evangelical Christian publishing industry, we continue our new series The Sex Ed We Wish We Had. Last month, we interviewed Doug Braun-Harvey, who describes the six sexual health principles that we and many other sexual health providers use as their rubric for co-creating healthy sexual encounters. We begin with a two-part series on consent, which, to quote the Harvey Institute (8:40): “Consent means voluntary cooperation communicates permission to try and reach sexual satisfaction and intimacy with willing partners. Consent transforms the act of sex from invasion, intrusion, or violation into an act of transformation. Establishing consent throughout each step of a sexual interaction provides each sexual partner space for sexual safety and pleasure that's consistent with their sexual desire.” We also address: Consent in Church and the Country (9:50): “Consent in our country has been about folks, primarily men, getting as far as they can sexually while escaping rape allegations or charges. Similar to the church, American culture has given women the responsibility of gatekeeping men's sexuality. While keeping themselves safe from violence,” Jeremiah says. Consent is a tool used by men to absolve themselves from any hurt or crime they may have committed. It is not seen as something that should be intrinsically tied to sex. Julia then makes the connection that, “so often the Christian Church establishes themselves as countercultural. However, in terms of sexuality, the status of so many sexual health principles are quite similar. Within and outside of church walls, we have long taught women best practices for avoiding assault.” The conversation around consent usually centers around the metaphor of wearing a bulletproof vest instead of just banning guns.  The Process of Affirmative Consent (11:55): “Learn that consent is the proactive negotiation of pleasure. To catch onto this concept, a religious university in Ohio was the first to develop a model for affirmative consent.” Julia notes as we give props to a Christian institution on this podcast for probably the first time. They then list the seven principles of affirmative consent:  Explicitness. A yes must be expressed verbally. Voluntariness. The yes must be given voluntarily without pressure or coercion.   Ability to consent. Intoxicated people, people under a certain age are unable to give consent. A shift of responsibility. They mean the person who initiates the sexual act has the responsibility to obtain the consent of all participants in non-coercive ways. Freedom from presumption. Consent must be obtained repeatedly for each new sexual act. Informedness. All participants must know what consent is being given for, in particular, when we think about the role of the receiver, what would it be like to have a sexual experience where the initiator says, hey, this is what I want to kind of work through. Revocability. A previously given consent can be withdrawn at any time.  These seven principles are without nuance, which we will dive into next, but still are a strong framework and guide to affirmative consent. As well as, great starting points and rules for someone to follow.  The Simplifying of Consent (15:40): “Consent is actually very complicated. Even in more progressive circles, I've noticed this impulse to try and make consent as simple as possible. We actually have so many different contextual factors to take into account with each sexual scenario. With each of the seven principles, we can't actually package consent into a simple formula.” Julia adds to the conversation about affirmative consent, saying that even though this is a great framework, consent cannot be distilled into a simple idea. It is okay that consent is nuanced and complicated, and that is what they are exploring today. Heteronormativity (21:00): “Heteronormativity relies on narratives about how men and women enact sexuality differently inside the church. As we talked about in reading the Butler series and in the seven deadly sexual sins according to the church, but also outside of the church, we have the false narrative that men are inherently more sexual and that women have the duty to perform sexuality according to the socialized norms of what men crave sexual,” Jeremiah says. We explore the effects of heteronormativity throughout different episodes, but pertaining to the idea of consent, this heteronormative dynamic affects how consent is given and received. Many women in heterosexual relationships feel the need to say yes, and many men feel the need to initiate sex, even if they do not want to have sex.  Sex Therapist Training and Consent (31): Jeremiah talks about his experience how, in one of his sex therapy training classes, he learned what consent actually looked like, and also how his heterosexual relationship fit into a larger context within society. “I was also so stuck in the emotional cycle of protecting my ex at the time, that I didn't have the wherewithal to realize the larger societal context for our relational interaction. But in this particular class, I internalized this.” He then talks about his experience unpacking much of the ingrained ideology about martial consent within the context of Christianity.  Christianity and Consent (39): “The most heartbreaking part is that we were both trying hard to be the best partners that we could be, and the patterns that developed from our best efforts, which were modeled to us by Christian culture and Christian leaders were strong contributors to our divorce and set the stage for both of us to have years of non-consensual sexual experiences," Julia talks about how Christianity establishes that consent happens only once at the altar, and never again. This has negative repercussions as sex does not equal an enjoyable and safe experience for the people involved, but quite the opposite.  These are hard conversations to have, and next week, we’ll talk more about Julia’s experience navigating sexuality and consent in her marriage, before concluding with some Relationship 101. Let’s heal together!

This week, we finish our third and final installment in our series reading Joshua Butler’s “Beautiful Union.” This book was initially endorsed, then quickly recalled, by the Gospel Coalition. In the final part of Chapter One, we get to read how Butler compares the vulva to a “bus depot, how Jesus was supposedly a 33-year-old virgin, and how Butler uses citations incorrectly. In all seriousness, this messaging by Butler is not new, just repackaged for 2023. You could have realistically picked up a book like this in 2013, 2003, and 1993 and the same message would be clear: Don’t. Have. Sex. (Unless you are married, then it’s okay!) He stays true to Evangelical beliefs by making it clear that Queer people do not exist and reinforcing the binary that you can only be single or married. We hope you enjoy this episode where we read yet another book repacking the same purity culture values again!  Sex Workers and Therapists (9:00)  “Therapy is the selling of a relationship. And a sexual experience regardless of the length of time, regardless of when the relationship stops or ends, is the selling of a relationship. Now the relationship involves the bodies. Rather than an emotional and psychological connection, but still the selling of a relationship,” Julia says in response to how Butler describes sex work. She draws the comparison between Therapists and Sex Workers in an interesting fashion, and says how the two are not so different! Repacking Rape Culture (16:00) “He's creating this double bind in which he is simultaneously describing rape as a sin while setting up a context in which that is an unavoidable sin due to the nature of genitalia, excusing the violence and then wrapping it in the language in which that's an inversion of giving. Nothing about that is giving, and the language of inversion does not excuse that.” The central idea in rape culture, that men are just too horny to control themselves. Both misogyny and misandry are at play here because rape is violent and without excuse, yet he is giving an excuse.  Sex is a Relational Experience (22:00) “Nowhere in this book so far has Joshua Butler suggested anything about sex being a relational experience. A relational experience being two people communicating about what they want regarding a particular experience.” Jeremiah notes how Butler has not mentioned at any point how sex is a communicative experience involving actual people and feelings. Evangelicals have a unique ability to sterilize sex whilst also not using the words penis, vagina, vulva, clitoris and so on. They put sex on a pedestal without taking into consideration that actual people having that sex.  Relentless Pursuer (32:00) “He's making the assumption that God is the relentless pursuer. That whether you want God or not, he's gonna keep pursuing you, even violating boundary norms. Which if that's your theology, that's fine, but if you want to make a parallel process between that and the way that men should pursue women, again, one more representation of rape culture.” Jesus as the relentless pursuer has the same ring to it as the guy who won’t stop harassing the girl who doesn’t want to go on a date with him. Queer Erasure (35:00) “How did he erase the queer community so much? That this isn't even mentioned as a sin, which is of course so disturbing.” Julia responds. This idea of don’t ask, don’t tell is reinforced here because Butler doesn’t even mention being gay as a sin, he just ignores the existence of queerness!  Single Like Jesus (51:00) “They use singleness as a euphemism for celibacy. And this is another classic move. We are absolutely effing obsessed with sex. And then the afterthought is, don't worry if you aren't having sexual experiences, you are equal in your humanity. This is an idea that happens outside of Christian circles as well,” Julia talks about the Christian idea that you can only be single and celibate or married and have sex. Christians leave no room for those of us who are single AND having sex or those of us who are in a non-marital relationship AND having sex.  Concluding thoughts (1:05) “I’m angry. I'm angry that men and women continue to be encouraged to hold onto these insanely rigid positions as Butler has described” Jeremiah finishes off this episode with a sentiment I think we can all hold on to, anger. It is ridiculous that this messaging is still prevalent in 2023, but it is. There is always hope, as Julia points out because the Gospel Coalition got well-deserved backlash on this. Even though this book is still set to be published, we hope that the Gospel Coalition getting flack for this is not a one-time occurrence.

Last week, we read the introduction from the book Beautiful Union by Joshua Butler. You know, the book that the Gospel Coalition posted an excerpt from two weeks ago, causing the Internet to lash out against TGC and Butler. And this week, we’re reading the first half of the first chapter, and have our own variety of responses and reactions. We are not theologians; check out Jackson Wu’s recent article on Patheos The Fundamental Flaws in Josh Butler’s Argument for a dissection of the problematic perspective of Butler’s (and many Evangelical leader’s) theology. We are sex therapists. And we’re reading chapter one from the lens of how Butler’s theology informs the rigid expectations around sexuality that continue to fuel Evangelical and Pentecostal sermons and teachings. Naming these rigid expectations and understanding how Evangelical theologians come to these conclusions help us deconstruct unhelpful expectations for humanity and recreate new possibilities for people to explore themselves and celebrate life through relationships. Framing male ejaculation as “generosity”, and framing female sexuality as “hospitality” (14:55): Julia summarizes, “We've learned that giving and receiving are at the heart of sex, but really the penis and male pleasure is at the heart of sex.” And Jeremiah responds, “And once again, Julia, your job as a woman is to be hospitable—code, be passive—and also put on a smiling, happy face about.” This is before we acknowledge that a) not all sex requires genital stimulation; b) ejaculation and orgasm are not the same thing; c) this is setting up an anti-same-sex relationship position. The problems of the parallel process between Jesus and the church and a male-female sexual relationship (29:30): Julia shares, “ This reads to me, and to apparently millions of people on the internet, like a real fetish around the female body and setting it up to be the depository of semen or salvation or the love of Jesus.” Jeremiah adds, “Which again gets back to the active/passive element, that the hospitable host or hostess is strictly to receive.” Misandry… (41:50): Jeremiah summarizes Butler’s writing, “So in order to suggest that the way that I show my partner and practice with my partner to practice with you how Christ engages with the church is I come in and I immediately move towards you attempt to stimulate you, whether you want it or not, as a way of getting you to respond and move into a space of hospitality?” …partnered with misogyny…(43:00): To which Julia responds, “What that communicates to me is that I'm a sexual object. That is completely subjugating to me. We don't need you to do anything. I come in the room, I come in the house, I see you, and I want you.” creates a horrible double bind for men and women (45:00): Julia states, “That communicates that you walk around in the world unable to see a woman without mentally undressing and or mentally raping her. And my humanity doesn't exist outside of my sexuality. And your humanity exists as someone who is a sexual Initiator. So when you get home to your lovely submissive wife who's prepared herself, can just channel all of that pent up energy that you couldn't enact on every other woman that you saw today onto her.” Spontaneous and responsive desire (47:00): Butler reflects on Emily Nagoski’s work on spontaneous and responsive desire. Julia fires back, “He is also doing the classic move that even the field of psychology has done, which is to take the conclusion of a study and then make broader implications around gender. Women more often than perhaps men in certain studies being aroused in responsive versus spontaneous contexts does not necessarily mean anything specific about gender, most likely. That actually is about the socialization, of men and women, rather than about men and women being different.” Jeremiah summarizes, “This is not paradigm shifting. This is parroting the evangelical language from the eighties, nineties, two thousands, Focus on the Family nonsense and using slightly different language, slightly different metaphors.” It’s imperative that we continue to discuss negative, confining, oppressive texts about sexuality, gender, and relationships, both from legislative outlets and Christian publishing houses. We’ll conclude chapter 1 on Beautiful Union next week! Let’s heal together!  

This week there has been controversy surrounding Joshua Butler's new book, Beautiful Union: How God's Vision for Sex Points us to the Good, Unlocks the Truth, and Sort of Explains Everything. And yes, that is the real title. The Gospel Coalition, a media source for conservative evangelicals, published an excerpt from Joshua Butler's new book, which was so horrendous, even THEY had to take it down. We were incredibly curious to see what piece of writing could be so bad, even the evangelicals had to apologize for it. Enjoy as we navigate the introduction and first chapter to Joshua Butler’s Beautiful Union.

Join us for part two of our episode with Doug Braun-Harvey. Doug is a licensed marriage and family therapist, certified sex therapy supervisor and certified sex therapist in San Diego. He has taught and consulted on sexuality and sexual health with Widener University, the University of Michigan, and the University of Minnesota. Doug is also the co-founder of the Harvey Institute, an international education, training, consulting, and supervision service for improving healthcare.  Good Christian (3). “I grew up in a very Christian world. And so for me to say I wasn't a Christian, took me 35 years. To be honest and open and say, no, I'm not a Christian. I do not identify as a Christian, and that was a tremendously liberating for my sexual health.” Doug shares the liberating experience of just saying I am not a Christian. This phrase can be a challenging hurdle for many people, because of the Christian central country we live in.  Deconstructing Narratives (18). “One of the things that stood out to me is also part of being a man, part of being a successful man is knowing shit. So when you're thinking, when you asked a question, what is your vision for sexual health? My initial response even was like, well, fuck, I don't know how to answer that question. And some of the shame then that comes up for me because part of the narrative around being a man for me is, well, I know the answers to things. That's how I'm successful as a man” Jeremiah opens up about the effects of toxic expectations that come from manhood and strives to redefine what being a “successful man” means and looks like, and sometimes it means not knowing all the answers.  Toxic Masculinity (23). “Toxic masculinity I think is really saying living in a male-identified body that gives you the privilege of remaining unconscious about how you move in the world and the consequences of how you live the world. I like to think about who do we ask to be more conscious or not in our society, and who must be conscious in order to live in the society and thrive, or at least not suffer horrible things” Doug covers how a majority of men do not realize their privilege, a simple thing such as walking alone at night may never be a second thought for men. He explores how many people are forced to be conscious of this out of safety.  Sexual Debut (25). “The church is a lot to say and churches have a lot to say.  Now, the example that's the most pervasive in the entire planet is the sexual debut. And the sexual debut is really a heterosexually defined experience of penile vaginal, penetrative, intercourse. And that's supposed to happen, and it only has moral value if it happens in a marital relationship that has been contracted and established. That's it. If intercourse happens anytime before that, it is not a morally correct sex act after marriage. It is. That's an example of an act-centered value system. Now, the principle-centered value system is one where you ask yourself, was it consensual? I was conscious and avoiding exploitative interactions in order to be sexual with this person. And was I aware that the person was also not exploiting me? Is there honesty?” Doug discusses the idea of the sexual debut through the Christian lens. This lens can be very damaging for those who do not fit the Christian moral standard for sex, and how that in itself can harm our views of ourselves and sex. Male Sexuality (39). “I work with some unpartnered men and they have talked about how lonely it is not to have the permission to discuss sexuality in the same way that women might, and I had one client come back to a session and he said, oh my God, I had a conversation about sex with my best friend for the first time. And it was, it was such a liberating experience for him. And I remember my own like emotions coming up in that interaction as well.” Julia opens up about a healing conversation she had with a client and how many men do not have ways to openly discuss sexuality in the same manner most women do, and how liberating that can be for men to have those avenues.   

  This week we start our new series The Sex Education We Wish We Had and our first guest Doug Brown Harvey, the co-founder of the Harvey Institute, an international education training, consulting, and supervision service for improving healthcare through the integration of sexual health.     Since 1993, he has been developing and implementing a sexual health-based treatment approach for men out of control, sexual behavior. His book, treating Out of Control, Sexual Behavior, Rethinking Sex Addiction, written with co-author Michael Vito was published in 2015. If you Google his name, you'll get access to his other books. Doug is a licensed marriage and family therapist, certified sex therapist, supervisor and certified sex therapist in San Diego. He has taught and consulted on sexuality and sexual health with Biden University, the University of Michigan, and the University of Minnesota.  The term “Sex Addiction” (14:50). “The idea was sex addiction was supposed to become a diagnosis […] there was an effort to create some sort of mental health diagnosis for this human behavior of dis-regulated sexual behavior […] there's always been a kind of contentious notions about whether that's an accurate description because there can be a lot of shame and judgment that goes with sex addiction. It's not just, gee, you have this condition, you have a condition that is the source of shame,” Doug explains the history of the term sex addiction, which has a nuanced history that ropes in shame, safe spaces, and a way to classify sexual behavior that did not fit within societal expectations.  New Safe Spaces (16:40). “The idea of being a sex addict was relieving to people in its time? Sure. Yeah.  It gave them an honorable space to go and openly discuss what they were doing in rooms outside of churches, outside of therapy offices, outside of places where stigma and shame might be commonplace.” Doug highlights how the diagnosis of “sex addict” gave people in that era a safe space, where they are not alone and do not have to turn to places that shame them (churches) but instead were offered resources and a community. “It was kind of a breath of fresh air to walk into these spaces. You were out of isolation. There was no internet back in those days. It was compelling to sit in a room and meet other people who weren't monsters.”  The Billy Graham Rule (28). “I think for me, that idea of, well, I don't want to hurt anybody. I don't want to cause pain to anybody. And learning early on that we talk about the Billy Graham rule. This idea is that if men are in rooms with women by themselves, like leave the door open. Inherently speaking, what's going to happen is that the man is going to do something violating toward the woman. It's just gonna happen. So leave the door open. That way, you know, that other people could at any moment kind of walk in. Well, that's depressing. That is depressing. That's pessimistic.” Jeremiah opens up about the effect the Billy Graham rule and purity culture have had on him, and how in many spaces men are conditioned to believe their sexuality is inherently violent. The Power of Language (32). “Men don't walk into a therapist's office with useful language for talking about sex. All they have is what they've been taught, the popular culture language, which is very stigmatizing. Look at the Billy Graham rule. I mean, somebody's gonna walk into my office thinking that they're a dangerous monster” Doug talks about how most men do not walk into therapeutic spaces with the language for talking about sex and sexual health. Media has a huge impact on sex, and the language we use, he gives the example later of how when some men say “jacking off” he uses the language of “solo sex.” Doug however never forces his clients to use this language but notices them start to use it over time, which shows the power of simple changes. A Woman’s Humanity and Male Desire (43:24) Julia asks a thought-provoking question: “As a woman who has experienced quite a bit of sexual harassment and objectification, how do you then talk about the beauty of desire and for men who are attracted to women? How do you do that in a way that's more respectful to a woman's humanity?” Which Doug answers by saying, “So what we have to do is teach people the difference between pleasure and politics. How do you enjoy your pleasure and be respectful and be aware of patriarchy? Be aware of sexism. Be aware of misogyny. That is another narrative. But the world of pleasure is also another narrative. And so we have to honor both.”               

We conclude our series on the Seven Deadly Sexual Sins (According to the Church) with reflections on the final sin: Don’t ask questions. Not knowing is an extremely difficult skill to master, especially for those of us who grew up in contexts where knowing and believing will conflated. However, not asking questions impacted our own sexual development, and ultimately the end of our marriages. Jeremiah and Julia talk about the conflation of faith with knowing about God, the ways that questions invite anxiety into a relationship, especially a theological one, and ways that questions bring excitement and growth into a system. Let's heal together!

In episode #69, we talk with Dr. Laura Anderson, co-founder of the Religious Trauma Institute, about the ways that Evangelical structures set up the sixth deadly sexual sin, “Don’t say no”, especially to your “God given gender roles”. In part 2 of our interview, Laura talks with us about the devastating implications of “Don't say no”, including: The involvement of guilt and shame (10:45) The ways that our bodies respond to high control religion (17:20) The distinction between acute and complex trauma (20:45) The first steps of healing (34:15) Healing in relationships (40:30) And we close the episode with two tips for Relationship 101 (53:45): Pause. Julia explains, “Create some time between an ask and a response, particularly from a partner.” Cultivate intimacy outside of sexuality. Let's heal together!

“In purity culture, both men and women are hypersexualized and then also supposed to be asexual at the same time,” explains Dr. Laura Anderson, cofounder of the Religious Trauma Institute. In short, the expectation is that men are expected to say yes to all things sexual, and women are expected to say and embody the word, no. The sixth deadly sexual sin captures the practice of rigid gender roles. Men are expected to be dominant. Women are expected to be submissive. Don’t say no to those gender roles. We talk about the pressures on men and women to say yes to these particular roles, the ensuing paralysis that creates, from simple decisions to longer-term decisions, like dating relationships, and the competitiveness between women and men that this culture creates.