The Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice

How can reflecting on your podcast journey spark delight in your success? The process of podcasting is serious business. You have to be laser-focused on all the pieces of the spiral—from brainstorming topics to marketing the published episode to starting the next one—and sometimes the subject matter gets dark, especially in the daunting uncertainty of our modern world. But at the end of the day, if you don’t enjoy what you’re creating, the overwhelm that will come up eventually is going to keep you from coming back. That’s why Mary is dedicating her 100th episode (woo-hoo!) to reflecting on the genuine joy of podcasting and inspiring you to do the same. It’s time, once again, to check in with that big, overarching Why. Turn up the gratitude for all the opportunities your show has afforded you, the connections you’ve cultivated, and the support of the people who listen in. Let this episode be your reminder to take the time—look back, laugh out loud, and bask a bit in the joy of your creation. Consider the journey so far with storytelling and reflection prompts: Where to look for joy when you’re tempted to back-burner your show The benefits and unexpected bonus points of having a podcast A guided walk down memory lane to see how far you’ve come Links worth mentioning from the episode: Episode 69, Intangible Values of a Podcast: What It Means For Stats, Metrics, and Monetization:  https://www.organizedsound.ca/intangible-values-of-a-podcast-what-it-means-for-stats-metrics-and-monetization-episode-69 Episode 95, Generative AI: Understanding the Future of Podcasting with Amanda Cupido: https://www.organizedsound.ca/generative-ai-understanding-the-future-of-podcasting-with-amanda-cupido-episode-95/ Connect with Mary! Leave a voice note with your feedback at https://www.speakpipe.com/VisibleVoice or email visiblevoicepodcast@gmail.com Get the full transcript of the episode at http://www.visiblevoicepodcast.com Read up on more secrets with the Visible Voice Insights Newsletter https://www.organizedsound.ca/newsletter To learn more or work with Mary, check out https://www.organizedsound.ca Link up on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/marychan-organizedsound/ Engage on Instagram @OrganizedSoundProductions https://www.instagram.com/organizedsoundproductions Show Credits: Podcast audio design, engineering, and editing by Mary Chan of Organized Sound Productions Show notes written by Shannon Kirk of Right Words Studio Post-production support by Kristalee Forre of Forre You VA Podcast cover art by Emily Johnston of Artio Design Co. Transcript with Audio Description: [MUSIC IN - GHOSTHOOD FEATURING SARA AZRIEL “LET’S GO” BEGINS] MARY: Podcasting is serious work. Sure, most of the time we're just having a conversation with someone or hearing stories, and yet when it comes to the making of podcasts, you know, the tasks that take you from an idea to actually publishing the episode, right, the recording, the editing, and then the promoting when it's all done, it's not always rainbows and unicorns.  And even in some cases where podcasts are talking about very serious topics, I've worked on episodes that talk about food insecurity, war torn countries, child abuse, trauma, relationship issues, there still can be joy, when you're talking about serious issues and creating your show. The light and the joy that actually comes from sometimes being in these really dark spaces can brighten even more. I mean, to the lack of a whole cliche thing, you really need to be in the dark and to be in that seriousness, to really enjoy and know what it means to be appreciative of being in that light.  So, podcasting is serious work. But like I always say, podcasting is meant to be fun. So as we celebrate 100 episodes of this very show, I want us both to reflect on how much work podcasting really is. Through the struggle to complete and publish episodes. That struggle is real, and yet how there's actually so much joy that it can bring. Podcasting is serious work, yes, but it's also fun.  So, this is episode number 100, oh yeah! On the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice.  > Here we are, episode number 100. This is where you throw that, bah bah bah bah [HORN NOISE MADE WITH VOICE], celebrating horns confetti, right?  [MUSIC ENDS] I don't know. I'm not usually that type of a person. And numbers are just numbers. I mean, yes, 100 is a milestone, but I decided for this episode that I just want to be very grateful. Grateful that I've created this many episodes for this particular show, but that you are here with me today and finding a bit of joy in whatever you've been up to so far and also by choosing to listen to this episode. So, first of all, thank you. Thank you for being here.  [MUSIC IN] As I said on the top of the show, creating a podcast is not easy. And if you have a detailed checklist like I do, you can also see how much work it actually takes to get from idea to publish and even more work after that with the premiering and then planning for the next episode. It's a never ending spiral of stuff to do. One of the things I wanted to focus on for this episode was actually reflecting back on our whys. Why? Why are we doing this? So if you're not familiar. You'll always hear me talk about your why. That's the point of your podcast. Why do you want to create one? Because, like I said, it's a lot of work, so you have to know why it should exist in your world. It's not a matter of if, but when you'll be overwhelmed or when you'll be burnt out. So knowing your why will bring you back to your joy and the joy of creating a podcast.  [MUSIC ENDS] I actually had this very conversation with a potential podcaster the other day. I was asking them about their goals for the podcast, and usually this is where I figure out if we're in alignment in how they think, what they want their podcast to do, and if I'm a good partner for that. And they talked about how they wanted to build a community, and I'm like, yep, bang on. Okay, this is it. It's not going to be about the numbers, right? It's not going to be about growing your listenership, which comes with it anyway, but, she wanted to build a community.  But the thing was, she works in the beauty industry, and usually all the beauty stuff, it's your typical physical side of things, right? Looking perfect. So all those stereotypes of the beauty industry, she wanted to showcase how the work she does is actually outside of all these stereotypes. What she does is really transformational and also restorative because it's about the confidence, the confidence within. I know, it's such a cliche, right? And in this case, it does kind of work, because her work can also deal with cancer patients losing their hair and the struggle of not only dealing with the cancer diagnosis, but then also the journey of going through all the therapies and all of that. But in amongst that, all beauty comes into play, right? What happens when you no longer have hair and you lose that part of you? So, long story short, it's not about the beauty. So her podcast isn't really about that either. She has another why for her podcast and the work she does.  [MUSIC IN] As for myself, I've had these moments of overwhelm, too. You know, we're celebrating episode 100, so I'm walking down that memory lane, and I'm always glad that I have my breaks to set up what I do for this podcast and the joy it brings. So I know this is my last episode before my summer break. That was the plan. And actually it just lucked out that it was episode 100. That was all serendipity right there. I can't wait to do all the summer adventures that we have lined up as a family.  But to reflect on the past 100 episodes, I've had a very busy first part of the year this year with work, new clients, lots of podcasts to listen to. There was voice coaching clients as well. And then also now setting up for the remainder of my year having some speaking gigs. And there's lots of personal things too, right? Like, work and personal stuff intertwines. You can't really separate the two. So I was caring for my mom. I was away from home and my family for a bit, but then also coming back and being with my kiddo with her very first events, like her first track meet, and for me to volunteer with her. I was so grateful to be able to do that.  So with all of these responsibilities, there was always time to put the podcast on the back burner, right? You don't have to create the podcast in all the things that you have to do, podcasting isn't high on that priority list that I was just talking about. But I want to keep it going because in knowing my joy and my why, it's because A, I know it's going to grow my business, right? It's a long term marketing plan. And B, it's just really fun to do. And again, I only do things if it's fun, right? So if it stops being fun, I'm going to stop doing it. So we need to take a look at this reflection and to find our joy in podcasting.  [MUSIC ENDS] In creating a podcast, not just for me, but I see this in the clients that I work with too. We get to use our podcast platform to also work things out that I've been chatting with, you know, the people in my lives, whether that is my clients, or maybe it's my clients chatting with their clients. So it really is, we are chatting with our listeners, right? We're trying to figure out what their challenges are so that on the podcast we can actually work out some of these strategies and tips or even playing through the ideas I have for an upcoming talk or workshop that I'll be facilitating. This can all be done through episodes of your podcast.  And then there's also, if you have interviews, connecting with a larger community in podcasting and hearing from others, right? I interview other podcasters, so I'm creating that network and really getting a new perspective from other people. And then another reason that my podcast exists is that I get to share very specific episodes with people who might need that support for a specific topic, right? Like I've had a client who's like, I don't know if I should be doing this or that. And honestly, she's so busy she doesn't listen to every single episode of my podcast, right? Even though she's my client. So I was like, hey, listen to this episode. It's a solo, it's short, it's got some prompt questions for you. And you know what, it worked for her. So, I love that they get to come back with this gratitude on what they learned and what they'll implement. So the podcast for me is more about connecting with my listener on a different level.  And outside of my work, my business personally. They also solidify friendships in my personal world who say they listen to some episodes and actually learn more about themselves and their voice. Which was really surprising to me because I don't ever expect any of my friends or family to listen to my episodes. Yes, they're out in the public. Yes, anybody can get them. But I don't know, I was like, if it's, I didn't make it for them, right? You have your ideal listener, and my friends and family were not my ideal listeners. So it's just bonus points that they listen to it and they actually tell me that they like it and they tell me why. So I know that they've actually listened to it because they'll mention something about the episode, right? So, that's just bonus points right there. So all in all to say that podcasting can, yeah, take up a lot of time, but that time is worth it because it goes beyond the podcast itself or your business, if you have one attached.  [MUSIC IN] So what I want to do today with episode 100 to celebrate is that reflection piece. I've got some journal prompts for you if you are a journaling type like I am. Just walk through a few questions. And if you aren't a journaling type, let's just reflect quickly. You can just jot some notes down if you want to or not. But I just want you to start contemplating on some of these questions to help reflect and integrate the work that you do to make your podcast a success, whatever you define as success. Alright, so here are my five questions to contemplate and journal on to really solidify what you've done with your podcast success so far.  One. What is your first memory when you were surprised someone mentioned your podcast? You know, it could be what I was mentioning before, where one of my friends, she listened to it and learned a lot, even though she works in forensics with the police department. Far from what my ideal listener is, but she listened and she is still always a highlight for me as that first memory and really surprised to hear that she listens to the podcast. It could also be like when I get discovery calls with potential clients and they say they listened to the most recent episode and love XYZ about it. And I was like, yes, that’s exactly one of the reasons why I have the podcast. It's working. Yes. So for you, think about that first memory, what comes to mind? So make note of that.  Two. What was recent and recent could be last week, monthly, or even the last year or two, depending on how many episodes you release in a year. What was some recent positive feedback you received? This could be tied to the first question and probably be the same answer, but I challenge you to think of a different scenario. Feedback, of course, doesn't have to mean a review that you got online. It could be a private message, it could be from someone you know. It could be a dm, maybe an email you got, or maybe a comment from a group that you're in. Or maybe you just had a coffee or tea with someone and they mentioned it to you in person. You know, real people in the moment, all novel these days, right? Real life people feedback. So take those all into consideration and figure out what was the most recent positive feedback that you received? Three. What have you done to celebrate your success? And I highlight the word celebrate because, I know I am not one to celebrate. And I tend to go from task to task without recognizing all the hard work that goes into the projects, right? Sometimes it's like, yay, I did it. And then you move on and you do the next task. So yay, I did it. But in this question, it's time to do something. And for me, what I'm going to do is during my vacation next week, I'm going to make sure I buy myself, I might give my family, my daughter, especially a bite, a slice of cake from a local bakery. Now, I'm calling this a celebration because it's something I normally don't do, right? So a celebration is something that is outside your comfort zone.  I normally don't buy cake at a bakery and I'm not talking about like grocery store bakery. I'm like a bakery bakery. Okay. We love baking in our house. So we like to bake non fancy cake, usually a single layer, no frosting, lots of yumminess. So my version of that for celebrating is to take that cake idea but bring in that celebrating layer by one, by one, buying cake from a real like, bakery, bakery. And two, making sure it's a fancy looking one, right? Probably more than one layer. See, it doesn't have to be complicated to celebrate, but it's about that intentional choice that you make. So what have you done to celebrate your success?  Number four, we are talking about those intentional choices. What decision did you recently make about your podcast again? Recently can mean last week or even last year or two. That was a game changer. It could be something as simple as I stopped posting on social media and focused on my newsletter. Or something even bigger, like I revamped my whole branding and recreated all my intros and outros and audio assets. Remember, I'm not judging you here. Whatever works for you to make your show more simplified and fulfilling and, yes, fun for you to create, right? It doesn't matter what that is. What was that intentional choice that you made?  I had a client once say to me, it was as simple as just hiring you. I'm like, I love that. Yes, I can make things simpler for you. Creating that blueprint, doing the editing, it doesn't matter. It could also just be, you know, having someone on your team to help you out with your process, right? So whatever works for your capacity to make this podcast experience more joyful and fun. So what was that intentional decision you made that you love?  And finally, question number five of all the episodes that you created, and if you have way too many to narrow down, maybe the episodes you just created within this past year, or if you do a series, maybe just this last series that you did, which one really lit you up? Like, the one that lights you up the most thinking about it right now. It could be because it was so easy to edit, or that it was so personal for you, or that you just got so much feedback that you plan to make more episodes around that topic. Really, it could be anything, right? What was it that lit you up about that episode and brings you joy?  [MUSIC ENDS] So that's my little walk down memory lane I wanted to do with you. I know we get so busy creating each and every episode, so especially if you have a weekly show, that overwhelm comes in, right? But we need to take that step back because if you just keep churning out the episodes, it almost seems like it's never ending. So thank you so much for taking the time with me today to reflect on the work that you've done with your podcast. These reflections really bring out the joy in the work that we do in podcasting, and it also helps you to keep going. It's a little incentive to dream a little bigger, to wonder when, not if, you'll feel those reactions again for the future episodes that you create.  To remember that podcasting is fun, even if you touch on very simple, serious subjects. It's not about the subject matter, but how you present it. So, yeah, you can be very, very serious, but we can also bring the light and the joy. And through that process, you'll be able to speak with spirit, as I always say, and then create the feeling that you want your listener to feel.  And since this actually is the last episode before my summer break, as I said, as part of question number five, I did review my last few episodes. So the series I did from the beginning of this year in 2025 until now, episodes 90 through 99, nine episodes to review. And the one that really stuck out in my mind, like that first thing that you look through it and you're like, ooh, that one. Episode 95 with Amanda Cupido, it really brought me a lot of joy because she brought me out of my comfort zone. You know, I was into this, AI is scary feeling. What is it going to do? But we really are in a time and place where companies are gathering a lot of information to train these AI platforms.  And her idea that using AI to train voices that are more like you and me. So use AI. Use it so they can train from your voice, your perspective, and not like the stereotypes and all the patriarchal stuff that we already see in our everyday, but more reflective of the greater population, right? Of everybody else that has a voice. So I was sharing this with a client as well, and she was also like, wow, I never even thought about it that way. You're right. The conversations I have are the conversations that AI needs to know about, that AI needs to be trained on, because they are more intentional, they are more loving and with care, and that is something we need more in the world. So Amanda really not only changed my perspective, but hopefully your perspective as well when you listen to the episode.  So, I love that episode because of that, but also a personal joy as well. Like I said, you can't really separate the two. The work and the personal stuff. Amanda is just such a nice person. She also sent a book to my daughter, you know, it's the kids version of her Let's Talk Podcasting book. And she got a glimpse, more of a glimpse into what I do for a living. So I love that she will always remind me about the joy that she brought to my daughter.  [MUSIC IN] So that's it for this episode. Thank you again for celebrating episode 100 with me. Send me your notes from those five reflection questions. I would love to hear them. I want to celebrate together with you. So send me a voice note as usual, go to my website, VisibleVoicePodcast.com you got the Send Voicemail purple button, click on that and share your voice and speak with Spirit. Email always works as well too. VisibleVoicePodcast@gmail.com and we'll get ready for episode 101 after I take my summer break, right? I don't have any plans yet for the rest of the year. I don't know what I'm going to be talking about when I come back in September, but that's why I have the summer. I am going to be figuring that out. I already have some, some things that I'm working with.  But you know, on that note about sharing your voice, send me a separate voice note on that too. What do you want to know? It could be something personal about me. It could be about my podcasting process. Tech stuff, mics, recordings, voice stuff, anything. Let me know what you want to hear on the show. So yeah, voice note, send me an email. All those links will be in the show notes. So have a lovely summer break from me. Or if you are in the Southern hemisphere, have a lovely winter break and I'll talk to you again in September.  [MUSIC ENDS] > MARY: Thank you so much for listening to the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice. If you enjoyed this episode, I'd love it if you’d share it with a podcasting friend. And to reveal more voicing and podcasting tips, click on over to VisibleVoicePodcast.com. Until next time. > [MUSIC ENDS]

What differentiates Canadian podcasters from their American counterparts, eh? If you think about the first podcast that comes to mind, there’s a pretty good chance it’s American. That’s because podcasting tends to feel—and in many ways actually is—pretty U.S.-centric. But that certainly doesn’t mean there aren’t a ton of fantastic, groundbreaking Canadian podcasters in the industry. From the struggle to identify Canada-specific resources to the future of marketing metrics, join Mary for a must-listen episode for every podcaster seeking to set their show apart. Listen to fellow Canuck Kattie Laur as they dig into all things Canadiana and pods. Kattie is an award-winning podcast producer and the editor of Pod the North, a popular newsletter that keeps subscribers in the know about everything happening in our country’s podcast ecosystem. Kattie takes a refreshingly optimistic perspective on creating and marketing shows in Canada. She and Mary explore the unique Canadian culture built around celebrating difference and how traits like this truly set them apart from American showmakers. Make your podcast stand out, in Canada and beyond. Find out: What makes Canadian podcasters unique Why it’s so hard to make a living as a podcast creator in this country How to share the Canadian perspective in our podcasts without overdoing it How to facilitate community interaction as an indie podcaster Links worth mentioning from the episode: Bumper: “Spotify Plays are One More Nail in the Download’s Coffin” - https://wearebumper.com/blog/spotify-plays-are-one-more-nail-in-the-downloads-coffin Hear more about the podcast monetizing landscape in Episode 97, Embrace Curiosity to Grow a Vibrant Podcast Community with Chidinma Azubuike - https://www.organizedsound.ca/embrace-curiosity-to-grow-a-vibrant-podcast-community-with-chidinma-azubuike-episode-97/ Meet Mary at PodSummit YYC 2025 - https://www.podsummit.com/speakers25 Engage with Kattie: Learn more about her projects and services - https://www.kattielaur.com/ Listen to the Canardian podcast - https://www.kattielaur.com/canardian Subscribe to the Pod the North newsletter - https://podthenorth.substack.com/ Connect with Mary! Leave a voice note with your feedback at https://www.speakpipe.com/VisibleVoice or email visiblevoicepodcast@gmail.com Get the full transcript of the episode at http://www.visiblevoicepodcast.com Read up on more secrets with the Visible Voice Insights Newsletter https://www.organizedsound.ca/newsletter To learn more or work with Mary, check out https://www.organizedsound.ca Link up on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/marychan-organizedsound/ Engage on Instagram @OrganizedSoundProductions https://www.instagram.com/organizedsoundproductions Show Credits: Podcast audio design, engineering, and editing by Mary Chan of Organized Sound Productions Show notes written by Shannon Kirk of Right Words Studio Post-production support by Kristalee Forre of Forre You VA Podcast cover art by Emily Johnston of Artio Design Co. Transcript with Audio Description:

What kinds of questions do you ask your podcast guests? The most engaging podcast episodes—the ones that make for the best conversations and the best listening—are the ones that contain great stories. As the host, you’re always aiming to draw all those details and deep disclosures from your guest. So why does getting the full picture sometimes feel like pulling teeth? Mary recently taught her nine-year-old daughter how asking more specific questions will get her the answers she wants, and that conversation prompted this episode’s exploration. An open-ended question—the kind that requires a more thorough answer than “yes,” “no,” or some other short word or phrase—is always going to elicit a stronger response. In return, you as the host don’t have to work as hard; your guest’s fascinating story, the whole reason they’re chatting with you, stands a much better chance of tumbling out of them with the passion every podcaster  (and podcast listener) is looking for. Ask yourself these impactful interview-question questions: What are the best W5 question prompts to ask in your interview? How can you utilize storytelling statements to deliver more engaging episodes? What should you look for in past episodes to start asking better questions in the future? Links worth mentioning from the episode: Episode 32, “Bad Interviewing Habits” - https://www.organizedsound.ca/bad-interviewing-habits-episode-32/ Connect with Mary! Leave a voice note with your feedback at https://www.speakpipe.com/VisibleVoice or email visiblevoicepodcast@gmail.com Get the full transcript of the episode at http://www.visiblevoicepodcast.com Read up on more secrets with the Visible Voice Insights Newsletter https://www.organizedsound.ca/newsletter To learn more or work with Mary, check out https://www.organizedsound.ca Link up on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/marychan-organizedsound/ Engage on Instagram @OrganizedSoundProductions https://www.instagram.com/organizedsoundproductions Show Credits: Podcast audio design, engineering, and editing by Mary Chan of Organized Sound Productions Show notes written by Shannon Kirk of Right Words Studio Post-production support by Kristalee Forre of Forre You VA Podcast cover art by Emily Johnston of Artio Design Co. Transcript with Audio Description: [MUSIC IN - GHOSTHOOD FEATURING SARA AZRIEL “LET’S GO” BEGINS] MARY: How do you ask questions? I guess specifically on your podcast, maybe when you do interviews, how are those questions being asked? I know it's still quite a broad question, but have you ever gone back to your episodes, listen to them again to review how you have been asking questions? And if you want to get even more specific, I'm actually talking about open ended questions versus close ended questions.  So today I'm going to explore those types of questions with you and show you how open ended questions can make your interviews and your podcast more enjoyable. Not just for you as a host, but maybe as a guest as well if you're on someone else's show, but more importantly for your listener.  This episode actually stemmed from my conversation with my daughter. So, you know, lots of real life experience can come onto the podcast as well. And this idea of what it's like to pull stories from someone by asking them the different types of questions. So, how does your curiosity with these open ended questions play a significant role in your interviews? So there you go. The next generation of podcasters, through my daughter, is already teaching me about something that I can share with you on this very podcast.  This is episode number 98 on the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice.  > MARY: Hey, welcome to the show. And yeah, things in real life this happens in radio all the time. It's just called show prep. [MUSIC ENDS] What's happening in your life as you go about your day that can help impact what you do on air. So in this case behind the mic on your podcast. And there are some real life situations that go on in my life that go behind the scenes on this podcast which you might not always know about, but this one I'm gonna share very much all the details of how I realized that this conversation that I had with my daughter is, I'm going to translate here on this episode today about open ended questions for you to ask during an interview with your guest.  And in fact I talked a lot about bad interviewing habits actually, that was episode 32 if you have not listened to that one. So definitely go back to that episode. It is a great companion to this one. Lots of details there on episode 32, bad interviewing habits. But briefly for this episode, a close ended question essentially closes the conversation very quickly. This type of question will either get a yes or no type of answer and if you don't want to elaborate more, you don't have to. It's really quite the conversation killer. But I know, when people come on a podcast, they're actually here to share stories. So even if you do ask those close ended questions, they will elaborate a bit more. However, it will be more enjoyable if you have open ended questions.  But back to the close ended questions. As an example, do you like chocolate? It's going to be a yes or no answer. Yep, chocolate's good. Or maybe a little bit more expanded, right? You don't have to go into details but you're like, maybe, it depends, I don't like milk chocolate, I like a dark chocolate. But then that's, that's really it until you come up with a follow up question. And there's a lot more interview techniques to go into this. However, if you start with an open ended question, you don't have to do as much of the hard work, you're already asking for more, all in that one question. So the guests can't just say yes or no. What kind of chocolate do you like? What are your favorite chocolate bars? Why is that your favorite chocolate bar, right? These type of questions are very specific and they can help the listener jog in their mind a story they want to share. And it makes your job just that much easier.  [MUSIC IN] So as I alluded at the start of the show, my nine year old daughter sparked this idea for the episode. And if you've got some young ones in your life, like most kids, you might know that they do ask a lot of questions. And most of these questions are close ended aside from the ones that always ask, but why, but why, but why? Those kids already are on the uh, open ended question train. However, my daughter does ask a lot of questions and not always the and why. Sometimes they are just emulating the adults in their lives, right? So for example, sometimes I'll say to her, did you have fun at school today? Or she doesn't always eat her lunch. So I'm like, did you finish eating your lunch today? Did you play with so and so, or who did you play with? And they'll just list off a bunch of names, right? So these are very much close ended questions and it gives a very short answer or one word answer.  So what parents or you as a podcaster, you know, what you want are actually stories, not short answers. In this audio format, you need the stories to shine. So for them to share in conversation, whether that is your guest, or your child, or a young one in your life. For them to share, and also so that it's not so hard getting those kids to talk to you, right? So like I said, this whole thing started when my daughter asked me actually about specifically working at a petting farm in my teens. Now think of my daughter in this story, in this scenario I'm going to share with you as the podcast host and me as the guest to help you relate. Okay?  So I'm going to share this little conversation that from my memory, what I remember she said, it kind of goes something like this. My daughter says to me, do you have any stories from when you worked at the petting farm? Yes, yes, I have lots. And then she'll say, okay, tell me. I'm like, oh, which one? As I guest I'm like, wow, I got so many. Which one do I pull from? I can't just think of a story off the top of my head. So I ask her, what are you actually curious about? What do you want to know? And she's like, did you do anything gross or did the animals do anything gross? I'm like, well, yeah, I scooped poop for a living when I worked at the petting farm.  And I kind of just ended it at that. I'm like, yeah, of course, of course there was lots of gross stuff. And I didn't really elaborate on that more either. So, she got a little frustrated with me. But do you see what's going on here? She wasn't getting any stories. She was wondering why she had to keep asking questions. She just wanted me to tell a story. But I was just answering her questions and her questions were close ended. I mean, I could have easily picked a story, right? I'm a storyteller. That's not hard for me to do. But I'm always of the mind about what does my listener actually want to hear or, or learn? How do they want to feel with the story that I share? And I kind of go through that with my daughter to show her, hey, if you ask those questions in a different way, you'll actually get the response that you want. So I taught her about being curious, being very specific, and the art of open ended questions.  [MUSIC ENDS] So if you actually listen back to that little story that I just shared, they were all close ended questions. They always started with did, did you this or did you that? Another version could be like do, do you this, do you that, right? They would be yes or no or very, very short answers. So I asked my daughter what type of stories was she actually hoping to hear and if she could re-ask the question starting with either a what, when, or why, or sometimes even how. This comes from my radio days where I learned about W5. Maybe this was even like English class days in high schools, probably, but it really was like a journalism thing. In radio, W5 stands for who, what, when, where and why, and I say and sometimes how. Because in the interview process, how is also very crucial.  However, in this scenario, in the interviews, I usually only like to pick three of the W5 because of the specificity of storytelling. I want to know more about the what, where and why so that you can paint a picture of the scene. Who usually just gets a one word answer, right? Like my previous question to my daughter, who did you play with today? And then she just lists off a couple names. So not very specific in terms of getting a story out of you. Back to my daughter's original follow up question. She wanted to know more about gross things and very specifically when I was like, what do you mean? Poop, of course, right? What 9 year old doesn't like talking about poop? So I asked her, okay, you want to know about poop when I worked at the petting farm. So I asked her to rephrase it with an open ended question using that W3 method. What, where, and why? Pick one of those three and ask me an open ended question.  So she thought about it for a second and then came back to me with something like she wanted to say, when did she. When did you get pooped on? But then she was like, well, you didn't say when, so what was the time that you got pooped on? Because I guess she was sure that I would have been pooped on working at the farm, right? But that question alone sparked a story in me. It was just like, like, bam, aha. I know, ooh. And I went off. But that's a totally different topic when discussion for another time. But if you want to know about how a turkey pooped on me, you'll just have to email me or leave me a voice note to find out that whole story. Okay?  But back to podcasting. The point is the very specific question that was asked got a much better, very specific story out of me and the passion out of me. When I was sharing that stor. It wasn't something that I was just going to regurgitate, but it was something that I was like, oh, oh, you're gonna love this one. And that's when you really get the energy and the engagement and the listener is gonna love that story and you as the host will love that story as well. So now my daughter is always asking me open ended questions or storytelling statements.  [MUSIC IN] Storytelling statements are something like tell me a time when, or paint a picture when, right? These statements are very direct and they're meant to tell and share a story. And so my dinner table these days with a nine year old are actually quite fun. She's always saying to me, tell me about and then blankety blank, fill in the blanks, right? Mostly it's, tell me about your day. And then we go around the table asking each other about their day. It's quite fun. We get to share stories and I get to practice my podcast interviewing skills without them even knowing it. And I get to actually hear about her day, which is a plus in the parenting world.  [MUSIC ENDS] So that really sums up the episode. What has your experience been when asking questions in an interview with your guests? I dare you to go back, maybe just to your most recent interview episode, review it, listen to it again, or also, this is where transcript can come in handy. When you look through that transcript, take a look at how you asked your questions. Are there patterns that you're seeing? What are they? What are those patterns? Are you using the same words you know, are you using the W5? Are you using the W3? Perhaps there is also a pattern in your guest answers. Are they usually answering with yes as their first words out of their mouth? I've heard a lot of interviews done that way where they always just say yes, yes, yes. And then they get on with their thing, but it's only because the interviewer had asked a close ended question.  So if you don't want your guests to also sound repetitive, always ask an open ended question. And you know what, with this episode, if nothing else, tell me about your day is what my daughter always asks me. Also works really well. If you need to test your microphone or recording levels with your guest, you know they're there, they just showed up to the recording studio room online and you can just ask them about their day to see if their mic is working and check their recording levels. So tell me about your day.  [MUSIC IN] So there you go. If you want, you can tell me about your day by dropping me an email at VisibleVoicePodcast@gmail.com or as always, a voice note would be lovely. I'd love to hear from you. Go to my website, VisibleVoicePodcast.com and there is a purple button that says send voicemail. You drop me a voice note there and don't forget that you can pull from that curiosity piece that I lightly touched on. When you're curious, the best follow up questions can come from, from that. And when you make them open ended questions, your conversations are really going to fly.  [MUSIC ENDS] So on the next episode. This is actually going to be my last guest episode of this series before my summer break. And it is of course leading up to Canada Day. Being Canadian, I'm going to bring on from the Pod the North newsletter, Kattie Laur. Pod the north is a great podcasting resource. So if you don't know about Kattie, she is hyper focused on Canadian content in podcasting, which is so rare in this space. Actually in the industry, when another Canadian sees another Canadian, well, at least for me, I always get surprised and delighted when I meet or see another Canadian podcaster. So I know we're all out there. But I think it's because we're so homogenized being North American that it feels like we get lumped into America as a whole. And at least it does for me because I grew up in Vancouver, being so close to Seattle, everything was very U.S. Centric. And the podcasting landscape is also very U.S. Centric, especially here in North America.  So, whenever I can highlight a fellow Canadian, I will do it. And since it is leading up to Canada Day, Kattie will share her experience not only with Pod the North, but also with her very Canadian podcast, Canardian, gossiping about Canadian hometowns. I love her show, actually. So we'll be talking about how being hyper niche works in podcasting and why Canadians should stand up proud to differentiate themselves in this media landscape. We'll chat with you then. > MARY: Thank you so much for listening to the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice. If you enjoyed this episode, I'd love it if you’d share it with a podcasting friend. And to reveal more voicing and podcasting tips, click on over to VisibleVoicePodcast.com. Until next time. > [MUSIC ENDS]

How can curiosity and commitment to your listener drive your show’s growth? From guest selection to generating advertising revenue, the process of running your own podcast is always challenging and fascinating, and it often calls on you to take big chances. That’s exactly what Chidinma Azubuike discovered when she started “But What Do I Know?” back in 2020. Her willingness to keep trying new tactics has paid off—all while working toward her primary goal of fostering a vibrant and thriving listener community. In this episode, Mary sits down with Chidinma to talk show prep, rebrands, and the difference between American and Canadian ad partners. Discover some fresh ideas for building listener engagement on this passive medium and how to deliver an authentic community resource while also making money. Whether you’re just starting your podcast or have been working away for years, Chidinma’s perspective is sure to have you taking notes and making plans to take your show to the next level. Learn an exploratory approach to creating an award-winning podcast: How Chidinma turned to life experience to inspire her show When and how to tackle a rebrand Transforming listeners into a real community Making moves to monetize your podcast Links worth mentioning from the episode: Register for BWDIK’s virtual movie screening of “Village Keeper” - https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdJ3oHnRoTAruUHjbsvMTncTv8UMuBPD1IdOJeEG28jhXjTzQ/viewform CBC, “The Golden Globes want to honour podcasting”: https://www.cbc.ca/arts/commotion/the-golden-globes-want-to-honour-podcasting-1.7532676 Engage with Chidinma Azubuike: Listen to the But What Do I Know podcast - https://www.bwdikpodcast.com/podcast Follow But What Do I Know on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/bwdikpodcast/ Connect with Mary! Leave a voice note with your feedback at https://www.speakpipe.com/VisibleVoice or email visiblevoicepodcast@gmail.com Get the full transcript of the episode at http://www.visiblevoicepodcast.com Read up on more secrets with the Visible Voice Insights Newsletter https://www.organizedsound.ca/newsletter To learn more or work with Mary, check out https://www.organizedsound.ca Link up on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/marychan-organizedsound/ Engage on Instagram @OrganizedSoundProductions https://www.instagram.com/organizedsoundproductions Show Credits: Podcast audio design, engineering, and editing by Mary Chan of Organized Sound Productions Show notes written by Shannon Kirk of Right Words Studio Post-production support by Kristalee Forre of Forre You VA Podcast cover art by Emily Johnston of Artio Design Co. Transcript with Audio Description: [MUSIC IN - GHOSTHOOD FEATURING SARA AZRIEL “LET’S GO” BEGINS] MARY: When looking at new podcasts for something to listen to on your podcast player, sometimes one just stands out. For me, it was quite a few years ago when the title But What Do I Know grabbed my attention. It was nominated for a podcast award and it really resonated with me because, the imposter syndrome behind that question, my need for continual learning, and also learning from a fellow Canadian, which was rare at that time. When I saw the show, Canadian podcasts weren't really highlighted as Canadian, but really it was all about that imposter syndrome part. That little girl's uncertainty that I have that still lingers inside of me even as I am a 45 year old woman today. Right. Like all of this stuff comes up, and it came up through that one question, the title of her podcast.  So I added But What Do I Know? to my list, even though I didn't listen to it, not in the beginning at least, because I wasn't ready to face my inner struggles with that little girl that I was talking about, right? That struggle of, ooh, I actually have to look at this now. Nah. But I'll still save it on my podcast player because you just never know, right? And then I fast forward to last year, 2024, and the podcast was rebranded and it spoke to me even more. I was like, wait a minute, why did this rebrand happen? What's different? What's going on? And it piqued my curiosity.  So I was like, okay, leaning towards the curiosity versus, ooh, do I have to face my inner demons? And that was the change for me. And I decided to hit play because I realized, yeah, what do I know? Because I could learn from Chidinma Azubuike. Chidinma and I chat about her podcasting journey and what success looks like for her now. Because as we know, podcasting is a lot of work. So how does her curiosity and drive to build community work for her podcast today?  This is episode number 97 on the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice. > MARY: Chidinma, thank you so much for joining me on the show, because when I saw the title of your show, But What Do I Know? I say that to myself all the time. It's like, but what do I know? What do I know? And I just really connected with you on that. And then the fact that we're both Canadian, like you, a lot of Canadian shows don't get highlighted as Canadian. So I'm really, really glad that you agreed to come on and chat with me today. CHIDINMA: Yes, no, thank you so much for having me, Mary. I really do appreciate it. And yes, But What Do I Know?, is the story of my life and the story of the phase of life that I'm currently in. And when I landed on that name for the podcast, I was like, this is so good. MARY: Yeah. Cause I mean, when I started my podcast production and consulting company, I had almost 20 years of radio background, but still I was doing the whole. But what do I know? It's podcasting, it's different, it's not radio. What can I do? What can I share? I don't know, I don't know. It's just, I kept saying that, so. Oh, uh, so connected with you over this. CHIDINMA: Yeah, like it just so represents just all the questioning. I think it's been a really good place for me to like all the questions about any aspect of life. Like my main pillars for the podcast are, you know, like finances, wellness, and relationships of all different types. So whenever, you know, whatever, I'm sort of thinking, I honestly think of my episodes based on that. Like, you know, I'm going through a period of like, questioning my finances. Then I'm like, oh, let's have a conversation about that. But what do I know about how to build up my savings, but what do I know about how to invest more and stuff like that? So, yeah. MARY: Oh yeah. So walk me through that process. You're like, okay, I'm having this trouble or challenge in my life. CHIDINMA: Yeah. MARY: What does that look like in terms of then building out a podcast episode and like figuring out who a guest to bring on and all of that? Walk me through the whole process. CHIDINMA: So it's really like curiosity driven, I guess, and what I usually do and now it's become, I guess a well oiled machine, if I do say so myself. And so what I'll do is at the beginning of every season, so in January. My seasons typically run from March to December. Now I have an editor on the team, so thankfully I won't have to take that two month break. We can cut it down to one month. But what I do is in January I will, you know, just sit, kind of reflect, journal a bit and think of the different topics that I want to cover for that season.  So, you know, and again, it's related to whatever I'm going through. It's related to life. It's related to something maybe my girlfriends are asking me about. Like right now, I had a little bit of like a pre-launch event with a couple of women and the common themes were hair. Especially for black women, it's hair and hair extensions, braid in hair. Can you get someone to talk about that? And I was like, okay, cool. Questions have been like hair care or balancing or how to build a sustainable creative business. Like, stuff like that are comments that I get. And of course people love conversations around relationships. Whether it's relationships, your family or, you know, dating is always going to pull people's attention.  So when I kind of brainstorm them, I also have sort of like, an admin coordinator slash social media coordinator as well. She helped me sort of brainstorm some ideas and helps me manage socials right now as well. So the team is growing, but yeah, so we'll make a list of topics and then we'll start searching up guests through either Google or socials are really good, especially TikTok and IG because they help me to get a gauge of the person's personality and character and if they'll be a good fit for the podcast. And so, you know, we'll search, we'll kind of do some tags. We'll search by like, if we're looking for, let's say like a business coach, we'll type in like, business coach. And my podcast is for women of colour primarily, so I'll type in, you know, business coach WOC, and IG is pretty great with all the tags and filters. I'll end up finding somebody that fits the profile.  And then once we find someone, it's now a matter of reaching out, pitching someone, sending that email that includes, you know, the stats for the podcast and generally what we're about. And then it's a couple of back and forths with the gap with the potential guest before we then lock in a date. And then closer to our recording day, I'll send instructions, important instructions, like, you need a wired headset, I'm not doing the Bluetooth…  MARY: Oh, gosh no. CHIDINMA: …anymore. Please don't show up, like, no, no, no, that's not acceptable. You know, like conversations, topics, things like that I used to do and I still do sometimes, like a pretty call before we record just to get to meet the guest and warm up a little bit. But sometimes if you're a repeat guest or if I kind of have a sense of who you are or you have a podcast yourself, we can kind of skip that phase. And then, yeah, and then we get to the time we record and then once we record, it's now on that post production end and market end. But yeah, that's, that's the process. MARY: You were saying that, you know, the team's growing. You have some people working with you too.  CHIDINMA: Yeah. MARY: But I'm sure like, like most people when they start this podcast like you started in 2020…  CHIDINMA: Mhmm, yeah.  MARY: …it was one woman show is my guess. CHIDINMA: Yeah, it was a. It was a one woman show. I had another person, she was a good friend of mine, went to school together. She's a great graphic designer. And so, we went to school for like, urban planning, urban design together. So she really tapped into her design for me. Okay. Yeah, she designed like, the initial iteration of the logo and she was also, she also created the COVID art. She wasn't a photographer, but she was at my rebrand photo shoot for cover of the podcast right now, cover art… MARY: Nice. CHIDINMA: …Yeah. So Haley is her name. She has been with me through like day one. But in terms of producing the podcast, it was just me. So I was doing the research, I was reaching out to guests, I was recording, I was producing, I was cutting reels, I was posting. And initially I chose podcasting because it's audio. Like a podcast is an audio format. But now, you know, people want to introduce video, people want to call video shows podcasts. MARY: Yes. CHIDINMA: They're not. Okay, let's just get that clear. MARY: It's a video show. CHIDINMA: It's a video show. But I understand that y' all want me to do videos so you can push my content. I get that, but I am not, I'm not the biggest fan of that. Like, I chose podcasting for a reason, because I didn't want to feel pressured about, you know, your image on camera and looking good all the time and presenting and performing in a certain way. It has definitely made it a little bit harder, but I'm grateful because now I can tap into an audience on YouTube right, as we start to grow that way. But yeah, yeah, it's definitely come a long way. Yeah. MARY: So why the rebrand, though? I know there was rebrand in the middle there.  CHIDINMA: Yeah. MARY: What was that deciding factor to make that happen? CHIDINMA: Mhm. The rebrand was in the beginning of 2024, last year. Yes. So the rebrand was because the initial cover art was not a cartoon, but it was like an animated cover art. Like it didn't have my face. Yeah, it was to represent me, but it didn't have my face. And I felt like, you know what, I've done this for three years. I'm on video now. I'm showing my face, I'm confident, and I wanted something that was a little bit more bold, more like fierce on the cover. And so I feel like the current cover really represents that. And I just look fire… MARY: Yeah, it looks great. CHIDINMA: …Right? But I felt like, yeah, I think it took time for me to kind of get, like, step into that. And so last year was the perfect time to kind of rebrand. I also wanted people to see the cover and see who they would be listening to. And so, yeah, yeah, that was sort of the cause for that. MARY: Did you change anything about the show instead of just the cover? CHIDINMA: What I did. I think when I did that subconsciously and maybe a little bit consciously, I think I started to become more personal. When you start a podcast and depending on who you are, for me, this. This was the case. I felt like I had to put on, like, a professional voice, quote, unquote. MARY: Yeah. CHIDINMA: And I didn't because I didn't want to fall into the trap of having a podcast where it was, quote, unquote, just two friends chatting-ish. Or just chilling. And I was like, I'm not like, you know, I feel like people don't take those podcasts seriously. So to combat that, I felt like I had to, you know, maybe like, sound uber professional or like, sound like I was like, I did like, research for certain topics and stuff. I still do, but it's just a lot more, like, personable now. Like, my personality is really showing through. I'm not afraid to, like, cuss here and there because it's, you're getting me, you're getting the full person, you're getting my stories now you're getting more of me, right?  So I think that is what I would say, especially 20, like, ending of 2023, 2024, you really start to see that, like, 2022, 2023, you got bits. But towards the end of 2023 and 2024, it was like, yes. And even more so this year, this year, just by virtue of where I'm at in life, the things that myself and my girlfriends are dealing with, a lot of our conversations are being more vulnerable. Like, we're talking about friendship breakups, where I was the one that made a mistake. We're talking about, you know, relationships and having to end them. We're talking about me, you know, losing my job due to the market. And we're combating and tackling those things, right?  I like it because then the audience gets to connect with not just the material, but with me, but still in a healthy way, because I'm never going to get on the mic and say, this is what I did, you should do it, too. This is for information. This is storytelling and a little bit of entertainment too, right? But I think that podcasting is a healthy medium to where people trust the voice, because I've been doing this for so long and I've been doing it based on research and having experts and reputable like girlfriends come on and we talk about it and we're doing it earnestly, we're not doing it maliciously. Like I'm never going to get on the mic and start chatting, ish. And not citing sources and stuff, right? So, yeah, I think that that's, that's been really, really something that I have focused on, you know? MARY: Mhm. I can hear it too in like the different segments that you have.  CHIDINMA: Yes.  MARY: And how you are.  CHIDINMA: Yeah.  MARY: And in your most recent episode you talk about getting, losing your job and that's very personal. But you walked around that to be like, hey, let's talk about this when I'm ready to do it. You know, it is your show, so I feel like there is a lot of community that you've built. But describe to me when your podcast really became like a community for you and had an impact for you. What does that mean? CHIDINMA: I think 2024 as well. I think when I did the rebrand, I pushed myself to do a pre-launch for that season and I invited about 10 women listeners, some of them were also podcasters themselves. And we did a pre-launch party where we watched 15 minutes of an episode that was to come and I revealed the cover art. So people, so they got to see the cover art before anybody else. And we just like, talked about what the podcast season was gonna look like. That was step one.  And then I think as much as social media has made it a little bit harder now in terms of reach and engagement, just showing up regularly, people are consistently seeing like, oh, she's serious about this. And people are, you know, commenting, sharing and they're also encouraging me. And I honestly think we might need to have this conversation again next year [LAUGHTER] because I think this year is when I'm really pushing myself to solidify the community aspect. So like, we have an upcoming movie, screening for Black Canadian film, yeah, Village Keeper. And I can actually share this if that's okay with you. Yeah, it's on May 29th in the evening and I'm sharing all about it on socials. So you can catch that there. Or if you listen to the most recent episodes of the podcast, the link is in the episode description. But yeah, we're, we're screening that and it's virtual. And so now I'm kind of testing myself to say, okay, who feels connected to this? The conversations that we're having on the podcast, who is, who wants to show up because of podcasting, it's very passive. So it's one thing to have people listen to you and enjoy the conversation. It's another thing to have people start coming to events or to want to pay for content, or to leave their house and show up for in person events, right?  So now I'm really seeing it. Like, one of the first things was I thought I could make a discord for our community. And I made a discord, actually. And then like a couple of people joined and then it was like I was hearing from a lot of women that like, you know what, I actually don't want to make a discord. I don't want to join a discord. It's another app.  MARY: Yeah.  CHIDINMA: Some people are like, I'm married, I have too many apps. And I was like, okay, I hear it. So you know what it seems like for my community newsletters would be good. So now I'm working on newsletters. So you're going to get a newsletter monthly about episodes and any events coming up. And then we're just going to keep using IG, like Instagram and have the IG community function and then get give out notifications there. And I've made that group really, really small and I'm inviting certain accounts that I know engage with the podcast.  So those are things that I'm trying. I'm also noticing that, like, I have to say things multiple times on the podcast… MARY: Oh yes. CHIDINMA: …for people to take action. Like, that's just. It is what it is on Instagram, because I've been showing up so much, even though reach is reduced, people will still kind of, you know, complete a survey or poll. So that has also been helpful too in terms of like, getting surveys about what the community wants. Like, people are saying that they want events, people want community events, virtual, they want to feel like they're connected with other listeners.  So people do want these things. I just think that with podcasts and it is a little harder because it's a passive medium. It's not like YouTube where while you're watching it, you're typing your comments and you're going back and forth. Like, it's very much like, I don't see the account that's listening to this, especially if it's Apple podcasts. Like, I just see that someone is listening, so yeah. MARY: Mhmm, and I think that's a lot of the challenge that podcasters have is that like you said, it is passive. It feels like a one way street conversation where you're just talking behind the mic and then you gotta wait a while before you hear back from the community.  CHIDINMA: Exactly. MARY: And also, like you said, you just have to repeat yourself a lot. And that is part of the audio medium. When I worked on radio, we were always told the best audio has to be repeated seven times in order for someone to get that into their brain. And even then, so because of that repetition, they might not need something right away, but because it's in their brain when, when they do need it, in that moment, they'll think of you and they'll think of what you've said so far and really want to work with you.  And so I think that's why a lot of people that start a podcast and they use it for a marketing purpose, right? Because they have a weekly show or bi-weekly show or whatever, you're in people's brains, you're in people's minds and hearts and ears. And so when they think of, oh, I need this, I'm going to work with the podcaster that I've been listening to the whole time. But, you were saying to me too that you also monetize your podcast,... CHIDINMA: Yeah. MARY: …so you do make money, which is different from just using it as a marketing piece for your brand. So walk me through that and what does that look like for you in terms of what does success look like for you? CHIDINMA: Okay, so in terms of, I guess building the brand, I personally didn't care for building a personal brand because, right now I still have, you know, a work life outside of the podcast. And I didn't see myself, I still don't necessarily see myself and the things that I do as a brand. And I, I'm not interested in developing like, a personal influencer type of brand on socials. MARY: Right. CHIDINMA: I am more so interested in building my platform and you can kind of know me through the podcast. That's what I'm more so interested in, right. So that's that. So with that, in terms of then monetizing that podcast monetization is so different from m other, I guess more visual influencer work because depending on what brand you're working with, you're not necessarily coming on Instagram to show like you're not doing like, a get ready with me with this makeup brand. You're reading an ad on the podcast. And so, what has worked or is working for me is working with agencies, are working with the network to connect me with brands. A lot of them are American and they're bigger because they have marketing budgets. And they're not the like beauty brands that people, some of them are, but they're not the beauty brands that, you know, you see on Instagram. But they're lifestyle brands. They'll be like your Cozy Earth. Of course everyone is who has ever listened to a podcast has probably heard of like, Better Help and there's like Squarespace and EarnIn who I work with. Cozy Earth I've worked with.  So I look out for brands that are like lifestyle, wellness, functionality, like finance, sort of like education or finance, um, help apps, like, you know, apps where it can keep you on track with your finances, stuff like that. Those are the brands and companies I find have the budget that can pay for multiple episodes. Like, I don't want to work with a brand if you're going to ask me to read an ad for one episode. That makes no sense to me. MARY: Yeah, like we said, we need that repetition. CHIDINMA: Exactly. It needs to be at least three and, or honestly five if we're being honest. And so, yeah, so that's working. I think right now a lot of my like, brand partnerships or ad campaigns are like three figures. I just landed a four figure one, like a good four figure one which I'm like, ooh, from one brand? Great, let's, let's get the ball rolling, right? And then on top of that, what also works is if you host your podcast on platforms like Red Circle, Acast, Megaphone, they will drop ads into your podcast and you go in and you can kind of like set certain like, ad locations on your podcast. And so because I host my podcast, a Megaphone on our network, Spotify will just drop ads there based on my ad location. And so far my average for that has been like 300, 300 to 400 a month. Which is not bad, right? MARY: That is not bad. CHIDINMA: Yeah. So with that plus like the brand stuff here and there, that's like, I'm doing okay. But again, podcasting, I mean influencing in general and content creation, it does take time to be able to work a brand. Like, it really is relationship building. Like the four figure deal I said I just landed, it was because I worked with that brand last year and they only sponsored three episodes. But this year they want to do it from like, may to like, almost the end of the year. So you know, like, it, it obviously results in a, in a higher amount. But yeah, it's a lot of relationship building. It's a lot of touch points, a lot of emails, and unfortunately, from my experience, right, because again, I work with agencies in the U.S. that connect me to some of these brands, like through my network.  But on the local level, I have tried and I even, like, paid someone who, who was just part time with me. She was helping me, like, do, like, brand outreach. I have found that Canadian brands just don't seem to have money or they don't seem to understand how podcasting can be important for their marketing strategy. So a lot of times you're setting meetings up and it's like, hey, I had one with this beauty brand and we're actually going to do a collaboration together, so I'm not going to say what it is.  MARY: Yeah CHIDINMA: And they're great, but they're a B corp, so they don't have a lot of money to put towards marketing right now. And then I had another brand, and even without saying if they had money or not, it was like, hey, we can give your listeners, like a free trial. And I was like, I'm looking for money. But yeah, I don't know, it just seems like Canadian brands so far are just more conservative in spending and that, that is in our nature. Like, if you compare U.S. and Canada, like us, you know, people are consumers, but they are also very entrepreneurial in spirit. So people are not, I feel like people are a little bit bolder in their spending, especially when it comes to things like ads, content. People do it because they see that that is business, that that is work, right?  And they spend the money because they make the money through, you know, entrepreneurial things or their own business. And they're just more advantageous when it comes to business content entrepreneurship in the States versus here. We are very, we hold our hands a little bit tighter because we don't see a lot of opportunities. So we're, we're reserved in how we spend. And so I don't blame the brands for being conservative with how they spend in terms of marketing. I just wish that, you know, they would take the risk to just be like, okay, if I give you like, $500 to $1K sponsor three, four episodes. Let's see what, let's see what you do. You know, but we'll see. MARY: Yeah, that's, the Canadian market has always been a tougher market to crack in, even in the broadcast world. You know, it's a totally different market. And Canadians are, we're slower to learn about and use podcasting as a listener. So, yeah, we're, we're slowly seeing us spend a little bit more just because there was more awareness, but because we started so low, that spend amount is still going to be so much lower than the U.S. CHIDINMA: Exactly. Yeah. Another thing to keep in mind is the CPM, which is like the cost per mile, but it really is just like the cost of brand. It's paying you per thousand listens on that particular episode or on your podcast overall, I think the industry standard right now was like 25. So some companies, I think it's like 20 to 20, oh, I don't want to lie to your listeners, [LAUGHTER] but I've seen 25. I've, I've worked with 28, I've worked with 21. And my lesson that I'm learning is if I'm working with an agency and they have to take a cut.  MARY: Yep. CHIDINMA: I'm doing my best to negotiate for at least 25 per thousand. It gets harder because then if you're a podcaster and you're not making like, you're not getting 10,000 downloads a month, like, that math will just feel really discouraging…  MARY: Yeah. CHIDINMA: …like 25 for every thousand. So if you, only if you get 5,000 a month, then you're getting, you know, 25 times five. What is that, like a hundred and something a month? So it could feel a little bit discouraging, but if you have like, 40,000 downloads a month or like, 30,000, which is where I'm at, then it's a bit more a month, you know? MARY: Yeah, exactly. And I think that's where a lot of listeners worry about the monetizing bit, right? Because you do need those numbers to back it up. And for even agencies to even want to start working with you is to have the numbers. But it's not all about the numbers, right? For you, it's also about building that community aspect. So how do you then refocus on the community stuff? So it's not always going to be about finances and money, money, money. CHIDINMA: Exactly. And I think so, honestly, the most realistic and honest answer that I can give for that is, it takes money to run this thing. So as much as I love the community aspect, I still need to be able to sustain this. But what I'm trying my best to do is to not rely on my community for the money. Like, I do want to start a Patreon, but again, people are just coming around to the concept of paying for content, so it'll be hard. I think, like that's, that's, that's another leap.  And so I think for me I'm really pushing to get my money for the podcast and my media work from companies and brands and sponsors so that the listeners and my community can, you know, either attend events for free, listen to content for free, and then in person events or some virtual offerings will be like an affordable rate. And maybe in a year I'll change my mind because, you know, the business strategy has changed. But I'm trying to not depend on my community for money. I just feel like that that’s harder, you know, so. MARY: Especially when your community is also talking about finances and struggling. CHIDINMA: Exactly. MARY: You know, losing their jobs and all this stuff too. Yeah, yeah. So, especially when you started out, you know, let's look back, reflect, what has really surprised you with the podcast? CHIDINMA: Oh, that's a good question. I feel like hmm. I feel like my growth to a certain extent has surprised me. I think when I first started, I really worried that people weren't going to want to listen because it's not a pop culture podcast. And even though, like,I basically do, like, edutainment, like, I'm educating you, but I'm also, like, entertaining you, right? And I was worried that we weren't going to, like, it wasn't going to seem like it was fun enough that people could listen to for an hour. But I was, you know, greatly, I was, I was wrong and I'm so happy I was wrong. And so I think the growth really surprised me, but I think the amount of work surprised me and the amount of work continues to surprise me. [LAUGHTER] Like, it doesn't surprise me now, but it just continues to increase, especially with each level that you get to. To where I'm like, damn, like, in 2020, I really just thought like, record, do a little bit of editing, put it out, record, do a little bit of editing, put it out. And that, that was okay for like 20, for people who started way back or 2011, 2012, that was fine because it wasn't that, like, saturated or wasn't, there weren't that many people starting podcasts back then, even up until, I want to say, 2018, 2019. But from 2019, when Spotify started telling everybody,...  MARY: Yeah. CHIDINMA: …hey, you get a bag and you get a bag, exclusive deal for you, that's when people were like, oh, I want to start a podcast too. And then every, like, it just like, it was like, the amount of work that it took to separate yourself increased. Now you needed video, now you needed Instagram pages and TikTok pages for sure. Now you might need a website for SEO. Now you need a team. You need someone to help you on, send out emails to guests. You need someone to help you with socials. You need a graphic designer. You need someone to help you on Canva. Like, yeah, the amount of work, woo. MARY: Yeah, I know. I loved, like, in the beginning when I saw, like, all the celebrity podcasts come in, and at first I was like, oh, man, you just, do we need another celebrity podcast? And but, then I was like, but wait, they're growing the industry. The industry itself is being well known. You know, and then I, then you'd see shows actually center around podcasting. And now. But then it's like, oh, every mother and their dog now has a podcast. And it, like you said, does saturate the market. But I loved seeing how the industry has grown and has been accepted as, like, the norm. CHIDINMA: Yes. MARY: And even today, I read a headline like, the Golden Globes is going to now give out a podcast award.  CHIDINMA: Wow. Because I know, like, there's the Podcast Academy already. Like, there's the Podcast Academy, which is like, I guess, like the podcast equivalent of Grammys. So they give out podcast awards.  MARY: Yeah.  CHIDINMA: And then, of course, you have the Signal Awards, which we won one. Thank god. There's so many different awards for podcasting that don't just have to be like, podcasting award. Like, we also want to communicate our award last year in 2024. MARY: Oh sweet. CHIDINMA: And I was like, okay, because you're communicating on the mic. I was like, this is, wow, wild. That's nothing. That shocked me, like, the awards, right? And so my next one that I am looking out for is, like, maybe the Webbies when we grow a bit more. And the Podcast Academy one. I definitely have my eye on those. But yeah, like, I'm so grateful that people are seeing podcasting as work. And it takes a team. MARY: Yes. Exactly. CHIDINMA: You know, and so that's why, unfortunately, sometimes you see bigger networks and companies betting on people that already have a name so that they can bring an audience. MARY: Exactly. And that's why there are so many celebrity podcasts. [LAUGHTER] CHIDINMA: Exactly. MARY: So aside from the awards and that stuff that we had just talked about, what else are you really excited about podcasting right now? CHIDINMA: Oh, honestly. So on, like a micro level, I'm honestly excited to just put out my next episode. I feel like the next one is really, really great. We get deeper into, like, my, you know, current life update with work and everything. So in this space that I am, I'm getting re-excited about, like, the episodes, and recording, and putting them out and just people hearing them like, that is really exciting to me.  I also think last year I was more like head down and my 9 to 5 was really busy, so I didn't really get to go out. But this year I would like to see if I could attend more, like, in person podcasting events. Like, I'm excited to meet other podcasts. I recently have attended a couple of networking events here in Toronto that I've related to podcasting, like, the Podcast Summit. And there was another sort of, like, more exclusive one, but I'm hoping to get out to, like, the Podcast Movements and the big ones. Um, maybe one. I know there's one in August. Hopefully I can get out to that one. We'll see. But yeah. MARY: But yeah, nice. Yeah, I love that you were saying the micro. Because at the core of podcasting really is recording those episodes, right? They are just talking and then, yeah, in the broader sense of meeting other podcasters. And I have the same buzzy feeling too. Like, I just want to get out and see people again. And I'm thinking about checking out Pod Summit YYC in Calgary this year. It's in September. And yeah, seeing that the Canadian aspect of the industry growing as well. And so that's not all focused on the U.S. and always going to the States for podcast movement and evolutions and all that stuff, which is great, but also seeing the Canadian side grow. So maybe I'll catch you in person at one of these events one day. CHIDINMA: Yes, fingers crossed. I hope we do. MARY: So on that, thank you so much, Chidinma, for joining me. This has been such a fun conversation, getting into the insights of your show, and I could ask you about a whole bunch of other things that I'm like, oh, I need to know more about this and that, but another time. CHIDINMA: Yes, for sure, for sure. Let me know. I'm definitely open to having more conversations about this. I feel like it's so helpful for, you know, upcoming podcasters, current podcasters, even just listeners, to know, you know, how they can support the podcast that they listen to, right? So thank you so much for having me on. This was so great, Mary. I do really, really appreciate it. [MUSIC IN] MARY: What I'm really struck by, Chidinma, is that evolution, not just for the podcast itself, you know, the rebrand and everything, but the evolution of herself, her confidence, yet still staying humble to always asking, yeah, but what do I know? I appreciate that she reminds me that we're always learning, no matter where we are on this podcasting journey. We learn from each other. We learn from the process of just doing. And from the product itself, the podcast, there will always be turning points in life and it's using that curiosity to figure out what the next steps can be. And that she's willing to try and experiment.  Sometimes after you produce a show for so many seasons, it's easy to just like, sit back and keep doing the thing that you always do, right? It's like, oh, I've done this before. This is easy. I'll just do steps A, B and C, podcast is done. But I love that Chidinma is always looking to learn and grow alongside her podcast with her listeners. So whether you're just starting your podcast or you're looking to grow and monetize like she did, but when it comes down to it, the podcast really is about your listeners.  So it's what she's doing on her show for and with her community. And like I said on the episode, and I've said many times on this podcast, it's not about you. It's not about you as the host, or it's not about you if you're a guest. It is about the listener. And for Chidinma, it's her community and being curious to find the next topic or theme to help her community grow, not only in, like, growing her community numbers in that sense, but to grow in each listener's own learning journey. So thank you again to Chidinma for being here and sharing her podcasting journey. And especially learning. I get to learn from someone who's brought success on her own terms.  So in the next episode, let's continue this idea of curiosity. I'm going to ask the question, how does curiosity play a significant role in your podcast, especially for interviews? I started thinking about this because I had a conversation with my daughter. And like I've always said before too, a lot of my work is intertwined, right? It's not just about podcasting, but it's life and how does that work with the podcast and family and everything is just connected. And this is part of the show prep stuff that I always learn from radio. Things you do on the day to day can be brought to life on the podcast. And so I want to bring this idea that my daughter and I had about asking questions to bring out stories that you want to hear, to be a stronger storyteller, and to have really in-depth conversations. So when you become curious, your conversations have the potential to be really, really juicy. So I'll catch you next time on the show.  [MUSIC ENDS] > MARY: Thank you so much for listening to the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice. If you enjoyed this episode, I'd love it if you’d share it with a podcasting friend. And to reveal more voicing and podcasting tips, click on over to VisibleVoicePodcast.com. Until next time. > [MUSIC ENDS]

What does coming back strong from a podcast hiatus look like? In the day-to-day chaos of our lives—balancing work, family, personal time, household upkeep, etc, etc—it’s perfectly understandable if it feels like a bit much to plan, record, publish, and market a podcast on top of that. If you’re thinking about pressing pause on your show, or you already have, rest assured, you can take that step without derailing your past progress. In this episode, Mary talks you through how to put your show on hiatus and set yourself up to return strong. Whether you plan to reimagine the whole thing or just take a break before diving back into business as usual, you’ll want to ponder the goals of your podcast, your ideal workflow, and—maybe most importantly—the fact that taking breaks is a natural and healthy part of continuing to enjoy your podcasting journey! Start preparing for your pause and your return right now: Why it’s important to keep your listeners in the loop How to incorporate the role you want your podcast to play What to include in an updated feature episode once you’re back Why it’s a great idea to build in breaks ahead of time Links worth mentioning from the episode: Episode 87, “Find Podcast Success While Doing Less”: https://www.organizedsound.ca/find-podcast-success-while-doing-less-episode-87/ Episode 84, “Simplify Your Workflow to Keep Your Podcasting Passion Alive”: https://www.organizedsound.ca/simplify-your-workflow-to-keep-your-podcasting-passion-alive-with-craig-constantine-episode-84/ Podtalk, “Presence with Mary Chan”: https://podtalk.show/presence-with-mary-chan/ Connect with Mary! Leave a voice note with your feedback at https://www.speakpipe.com/VisibleVoice or email visiblevoicepodcast@gmail.com Get the full transcript of the episode at http://www.visiblevoicepodcast.com Read up on more secrets with the Visible Voice Insights Newsletter https://www.organizedsound.ca/newsletter To learn more or work with Mary, check out https://www.organizedsound.ca Link up on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/marychan-organizedsound/ Engage on Instagram @OrganizedSoundProductions https://www.instagram.com/organizedsoundproductions Show Credits: Podcast audio design, engineering, and edited by Mary Chan of Organized Sound Productions Show notes written by Shannon Kirk of Right Words Studio Post-production support by Kristalee Forre of Forre You VA Podcast cover art by Emily Johnston of Artio Design Co. Transcript with Audio Description: [MUSIC IN - GHOSTHOOD FEATURING SARA AZRIEL “LET’S GO” BEGINS] MARY: With all this uncertainty in the world, podcasting is, spoiler alert, not going to be your number one priority in your life. Okay, I know. Maybe it's already on the back burner for you, actually, and you feel this nagging feeling to do something. It's like, oh, I have my podcast. I should put out an episode, or, oh, I want to talk about these things, but, oh, I don't know, how do I have time? It's kind of nagging you.  But the overwhelm of everything else in your life either A, doesn't give you the time to record, or B, the mental capacity to say a coherent sentence at this time is truly, truly lacking. So what is it like to take a pause from your podcast and also then come back too, with that intention? How do you restart or maybe reimagine your podcast if you're in a season of overwhelm or busyness? Or you know what, it's been on the back burner for a while and you're like, I want to come back now. So what can you do either to prep for this pause or figuring out what it can look like when you want to come back?  This is episode number 96 on the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice.  > Hey there, welcome to the show. This is episode number 96, as I said.  [MUSIC ENDS] But you know what? If you go back to episode 87, about doing less for your podcast, if you haven't listened to that one yet, do go and listen to that one, because it'll be a great companion episode for this one. It'll give you some ideas on shifting your podcast workflow and just giving you a few more details and expansion on what I'm going to talk about today. So, yeah, bookmark that. If you haven't listened to episode 87 yet, that is the one to get to after this one. All right. [MUSIC IN] So today we're going to talk about, hey, maybe somewhere along the way of your podcasting journey, you paused the show, or you, uh, plan to pause it now, or maybe you want to come back from your show. What does this all look like? Will you be getting back to the old workflow that you used to do? What worked for you then, and what would you change now? Another question could be, what did you never liked about that podcast workflow? So you would like to get rid of it or approve upon it altogether, right? Getting rid of it could just mean, like, skipping that step or passing it off to somebody else.  So we're going to deep dive into some of these things today. To maybe even reimagine what it could look like to restart that podcasting journey of yours. So, the foundational question, really, I'm going to ask you is, is this the same podcast that you want to create, or is there a new iteration for you right now in your podcasting journey? So if you're in that season of overwhelm right now and you want to reimagine what your podcast can look like in the future, we're definitely going to take a look at that in this episode. So what does restarting a podcast look like? But before we even get to that, let's take a look first at the pause.  [MUSIC ENDS] So maybe you're in that overwhelm season right now, and you're like, I just have to stop cold turkey. I don't have time for this. But if you do have the bandwidth, if you do have that mental energy to create one more episode, it's best not to ghost your listeners. You know, as a listener myself, I always wonder, oh, is this person coming back? Or maybe I've noticed, you know, they used to have a weekly show, but they haven't published this week. Oh, sometimes I might not notice the first week, but then the second week, third week, fourth week a month, two months go by, and I was like, oh, yeah, I used to like listening to this show. What happened to it? It's not coming up on my feed anymore.  So if you have the bandwidth, create a final episode and provide them with what your plan is so that, you know, a few months down the road, they can still think, oh, yeah, what happened to that show? I wonder if they're back yet. Or, you know what? Even if you don't have a plan, let them know that you don't have a plan, [LAUGHTER] that you'd like to come back. Just depends on what the situation is, right? So it just depends on your transparency and what you want to share.  Some of the things that you can share are your hopes for the podcast. What do you love best about creating the show for your ideal listener? Share that as well, because they want to know what's going on in your head. So could be a short solo episode that you share this, or you can create one of your regular episodes. Especially if you do interview episodes, you can tag it onto your intro and outro for the next episode that you create.  The point of all of this is the intention and making sure that your listener is on that plan as well. You don't want to just leave them in a lurch, right? Especially if you've been creating a show for quite some time. They want to know where you are on that journey and go alongside with you. So, you might not have all your plans ironed out right now, but maybe this is also a good way to verbalize those ideas. I've had people do a solo episode and just start with a few bullet points and then just riff on that and figure out, okay, is this what I want to do? If I say it out loud, it might create a different meaning for you. So your episode doesn't have to be pre-planned and scripted, freestyling it as a brainstorming session out loud can really be beneficial as well.  However, if you do have a plan, great. Let your listener know. I know for me, I've always scheduled in breaks, so I talk about those pauses in my last episode before I do the break. And I'll also let my listener know when I'm back. Like, I could have an exact date or I could just say like, mid-September or something like that, right? But right now, let's take a step back, back. So we're taking a step back even further and think about some options that you have when you come back from your break. Whether it's a couple of months or it's been a whole year or more since your last episode. What's the plan?  [MUSIC IN] So even before you hit that record button, let's revisit our foundations. Here are some prompts for you to start thinking about what you want out of your podcast. Has your ideal listener changed? If so, how? Who is this person now? What are you passionate about currently? What new directions related to your business, or work, or organization that could drive new goals for your podcast? And finally, what role does your podcast play in those new goals? Does your podcast role need to shift?  Earlier this year, mid-April, I was actually speaking at NTEN's Nonprofit Technology Conference about just that. Your podcast role. That, in order to figure out the direction of your podcast, or in this case, maybe a new direction when you're coming back, we need to know what role your podcast will play for your goals. You know, things like your frequency, your length, how long your episodes are the types of resources that go into a podcast, like show notes, that will all change based on what the role of your podcast is.  For example, if you're looking just to create a lot more episodes, you're like, I want to come back and I want to come back strong. With weekly shows, a content role could be what you're after, but in this case, after a pause, really, do you have the bandwidth to continually create a weekly show and then repurpose that episode into other forms of content? You really gotta think about your capacity as well.  As another example, if you're looking to build relationships, this is usually the easiest way to create a podcast and one that you actually hear very often. They are mainly interview style shows where you are focused on finding aligned guests to solve your ideal listeners challenges. You are also spending time promoting that person before, during, and especially after each episode. But maybe you're looking at your podcast as a way to engage with your listeners more. So this time you want to think about spending more time on collecting questions and perhaps voice clips to add to those episodes. You're really asking for their feedback and getting those voice clips. You also could share like Q&As or Ask Me Anything, AMA type episodes to get their thoughts or opinions. So they are really engaged with you as the host.  But maybe your podcast role is to be more about moving people from the podcast to another platform that you have. So whether that is going to your email list where you do the majority of your sales or I've also seen nonprofit organizations use this to convert listeners from the podcast to paying donors and being on their email list there. So you'll be spending more time on your podcast creating story and compelling emotional connections. And knowing that this then requires more highly produced podcasts with like music and sound effects and clips of people's stories. So capacity wise, this is going to be upping your game.  Or maybe it's about thought leadership. You know what, I really want to hone in on this thought leadership piece for my podcast. You have ideas to share, so you mainly want to have solo episodes. Well, you'll never run out of things to talk about. So in this capacity piece, you're going to be doing a lot of that prep work. You want to be the authority in your industry where you're going to have high level conversations take place. So you really got to map out what you want to talk about. You'll focus on a lot of details for actionable items and takeaways for your listener beyond the show notes.  Because you know, if I'm learning from you, I also want to learn from you, maybe on your blog or newsletter. I want to sign up for that. You've got a whole ecosystem to spread your message and podcasting is just one part of that. So overall, what role do you see your podcast taking shape as? Because once you know that, we can take a look at options to coming back or reimagining your show.  [MUSIC ENDS] So now when you do come back, what are you going to do differently, if any? I was talking with Craig Constantine. He was actually on my podcast a little while back, but then I was on his show called Podtalk. And that was an episode I think came out in late March. I've shared the link with you in the show notes. I was actually his first guest after he had a very long break. I think he said at least a year. It was a year before he had me as a published episode.  So he had a fantastic workflow that worked for him. Remember, he talked about that on my show. So what he did for restarting Podtalk was essentially the exact same show. He didn't do anything different. And he just came back with a new episode saying in his intro that he's back after a break and there's nothing wrong with doing just that. If you want to go back to what worked for you before, that's totally cool.  But if you want to change things up, especially due to that capacity piece, whether it's frequency, meaning how often you publish, or going with or without guests, or maybe the length of the episode, maybe you're like I just want to do a lot shorter episodes now, this would be great to either say it in your new episode or create a whole new trailer. Because if it's a totally different style of show, a new trailer would be great to help advertise that right, for that organic search. So this becomes your new featured episode.  And especially for those that are newly discovering your podcast, that organic search, they'll know exactly what the new shows is all about. And actually, even before you hit record, like I always say, it's all about the pre-stuff. What will your new workflow look like if you've never done guests before, how will you now incorporate a system into your show to bring guests on? If you were too busy before, does this new workflow actually work with your current capacity? And how are you integrating your podcast tasks, maybe into your calendar so that you actually do those tasks? Maybe you need some reminders on your phone. Do you have a team maybe you can assign some tasks to, or they can send you those reminders? I want to make sure that in three or six months time down the road, you are not back to this overwhelmed stage if you can avoid it.  The capacity to create a podcast is probably more than you actually think. I know a lot of people always go into podcasting thinking, oh, yeah, you know, you just hit record and then you publish it, right? Well, in fact, I know if your podcast is tied to your work, if you're an entrepreneur, or you have it tied to your organization, or maybe if it's just a huge passion project, it's going to take a few more hours than you think. Podcasting is a lot of work, but, you know, there's value to this work, and it's fun. Like, who doesn't love doing something fun? And it's when it stops being fun, when the overwhelm presents itself, that we feel like we need that break, right?  So I was thinking back to my show. You know, it feels like it's always been with a season. People always say, like, oh, yeah, you can create seasons, right? Like on TV shows, you create a season. Podcasting, similar. For me, I created my show with breaks in between these seasons to deal with that overwhelm piece. In my life, there are two sets or two, I guess. Two sets? Yeah, two series. Every year for me, I take a pause between December and February, and then also in the summer, July and August. So I need that time to recalibrate, to rest, and also to figure out, okay, what am I really passionate about right now that I want to talk about in this season, right?  So give or take a few weeks or so of that time frame, I usually have those breaks. And my podcast doesn't have any themes or true story arcs to justify, like, an actual season. So some people might call it a series, where you do a certain amount, maybe have a broad theme around it for a number of episodes, and then you take a break. I could more broadly associate with that, like a series versus seasons, but technicality rather doesn't matter what you call it. But in my mind, listeners are still going to listen as long as they understand what the cadence or frequency is. You don't ghost them. You let them know on the last episode before there is a break.  So a lot of my listeners know that I will take a break during my winter and my summer because we're all doing things during that time of year, and I need the break, and I need to spend time with my family so they'll know. Right? You know, right? Okay. So we're gonna take a look now at what you can do to shift it back to that fun piece I was mentioning earlier. There's no one way or one right answer to have fun, right? Everybody has fun in their own way. But I just want you to consider that breaks are totally okay.  In fact, they are needed. I know in the world of content and fear of missing out, you feel some outside pressure to continually create. Maybe it's just our society, but really, you don't have to. Like I said, I do it for my sanity. I do it for my family. The breaks come first. You schedule that in. You know, we might think we have to do weekly episodes, but we don't. So unless you are a big celebrity podcast with a big advertising revenue behind you, who says you need to have weekly content? We don't. That's not the podcast that we're creating. In fact, it's because of advertising that we have sort of this unspoken rule about content creation. But in podcasting, that kind of goes against that traditional idea, the traditional broadcast idea with advertisers, right. That you are, as a podcaster, are not tied to any fixed schedule, that you are not beholden to any advertisers that way. And yet, yet, even if you are, you do have advertisers. Can you incorporate these ads into your new reimagined schedule?  So do you want to do sprints? Maybe you batch record on a whole new, different level, right? There are lots of options that you can still do a bunch of recording, but then being able to edit, and schedule, and have them out there so you don't just have a whole bunch of recordings and nothing ever gets done with it, right? Because after you record, there's still lots to do in that process to get that podcast out there.  So lots of options, lots of things to think about and mull over. So I'd love to hear your ideas. What is working for you? Or if you're in a season of overwhelm, what's stopping you from, well, stopping, right? I want to know. You can send me a voice note from my website, VisibleVoicePodcast.com or you can also email me as usual, VisibleVoicePodcast@gmail.com I know right now I am just figuring out my last few episodes before I go on my summer break. Oh, my gosh, I can't believe I'm already thinking about a summer break. But that's what you got to do when you're planning in advance. You were recording this maybe a few weeks ahead of time because you want to get to that break.  So do you have the capacity to do that? I'd love to know. What are you doing with your podcast to build in those breaks. [MUSIC IN] On the next episode? Next time, we're going to hear from someone who wanted to create a space for affirming, learning and healing, so she turned to a podcast. I'm going to be in conversation with Chidinma Azubuike, founder of the award winning, But What Do I Know podcast where she merges her love for community building and development with her passion for storytelling and facilitating conversations. She's got a fantastic podcasting journey story to share with you, so you're gonna learn a lot from her. So chat with you then. [MUSIC ENDS] > MARY: Thank you so much for listening to the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice. If you enjoyed this episode, I'd love it if you’d share it with a podcasting friend. And to reveal more voicing and podcasting tips, click on over to VisibleVoicePodcast.com. Until next time. > [MUSIC ENDS]

How are you using or avoiding artificial intelligence in your podcast? AI is a shiny new offering with loads of possibilities, but a lot of people are also understandably threatened by its wide-reaching and ever-growing abilities. On today’s episode, Mary connects with Amanda Cupido, an adjunct professor, TEDx speaker, podcast producer, and author of the book “Let’s Talk Podcasting.” Amanda has her finger firmly on the pulse of all things new in the world of podcasts, and she shares her deeply researched insights on the pros and cons of welcoming generative AI into our shows—just how wide should we be opening that door? From concern around the inherent biases of AI outputs to the tool’s potential to build the confidence of new voices in audio, Amanda’s hot takes might just change the way you incorporate artificial intelligence into your podcast. Learn to navigate generative AI from a 100% human expert: How we can maintain the human touch in AI-assisted creations, The struggle to stay transparent about our use of AI, What to take away and leave behind from popular celebrity podcasts, What other big changes are making waves in the podcasting world today. Links worth mentioning from the episode: Suno AI music-making tool - https://www.suno.com Boardy AI networking tool - https://www.boardy.ai/ ChatGPT - https://chatgpt.com/ DeepSeek AI - https://deepseek.ai/ Start With Why by Simon Sinek - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4ZoJKF_VuA Episode 79, Making Accessibility Possible in Podcasting with Joel McKinnon - https://www.organizedsound.ca/making-accessibility-possible-in-podcasting-with-joel-mckinnon-episode-79/  Engage with Amanda Cupido: Find out more about Amanda’s work - https://www.amandacupido.com/ Connect with Amanda on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/amandacupido/ Order a copy of “Let’s Talk Podcasting” - https://www.letstalkpodcasting.com/ Get the kid’s version - “Let’s Talk Podcasting for Kids” - https://www.letstalkpodcastingforkids.com/ Work with Lead Podcasting - https://www.leadpodcasting.com/ Listen to Amanda’s TEDx talk, “Why Audio Storytelling is the backbone of humanity” - https://youtu.be/srh0mdmmQoo Connect with Mary! Leave a voice note with your feedback at https://www.speakpipe.com/VisibleVoice or email visiblevoicepodcast@gmail.com Get the full transcript of the episode at http://www.visiblevoicepodcast.com Read up on more secrets with the Visible Voice Insights Newsletter https://www.organizedsound.ca/newsletter To learn more or work with Mary, check out https://www.organizedsound.ca Link up on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/marychan-organizedsound/ Engage on Instagram @OrganizedSoundProductions https://www.instagram.com/organizedsoundproductions Show Credits: Podcast audio design, engineering, and edited by Mary Chan of Organized Sound Productions Show notes written by Shannon Kirk of Right Words Studio Post-production support by Kristalee Forre of Forre You VA Podcast cover art by Emily Johnston of Artio Design Co. Transcript with Audio Description: [MUSIC IN - GHOSTHOOD FEATURING SARA AZRIEL “LET’S GO” BEGINS] MARY: AI, artificial intelligence. People love it or they're afraid of it. On one hand it's this shiny new object, people flock to it. It's been helping us write better, maybe give us ideas and do that basic level of tasks that sometimes we don't want to do. But then on the other hand, it's the thought of robots taking over the world, making decisions that might be wrong, or even, gasp, replacing actual humans.  So yes, I too all those fears and the shiny new object syndrome more so the fears though. So I haven't really been jumping on the AI bandwagon. And yet when I look at the nitty gritty side of things that I do, a lot of it is AI involved. You know, there's a lot of automations and workflows that are just always happening in the background for me. So why are we so scared? Amanda Cupdio tells us that it's the generative AI that has us all fearful. The generative part, that's the AI that's gotten very, very good lately. So I wanted to know more about it to A, calm my fears, but also my curiosity to it for the whole side of podcasting.  Amanda came into my world through a mutual podcasting friend shout out to Aaron Johnson. Not only is Amanda an award winning podcast producer, TEDx speaker, and an entrepreneur, founder and CEO of Lead Podcasting, Amanda is also the author of the Amazon number one bestseller Let's Talk Podcasting: The Essential Guide To Doing It Right and now a kids' version of that book too. And if all of that wasn't enough to keep her busy, to top it all off, she's helping the next generation of podcasters as an adjunct professor to redefine the radio courses at both Seneca Polytechnic and Toronto Metropolitan University.  To top it all off yet again is also teaching a new generative AI course at Seneca, which is the thing that piqued my interest and why I really wanted to get her thoughts on how AI can be good for podcasting, so that we're not so afraid of what's to come. I also have such a love for her because we both are former radio people and she was the first woman to be a program director at a talk radio station in Toronto. Which really blows my mind because Toronto is the biggest market in Canada and this milestone is actually relatively new in our recent history, so how is that still possible? But kudos to her. Congrats on that one.  Okay, back to the topic at hand. Whether you are using AI or not in your podcast, in your podcast workflow, in the creation of your show, you are really going to enjoy this chat because, like I said, AI is a part of our podcasting world. So we need to be aware of how it's impacting our space and what unfolds for the industry itself and for the next generation of podcasters.  This is episode number 95 with Amanda Cupido on The Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice.  > Amanda, thank you so much for taking time out of your,  [MUSIC ENDS] You're so busy, you've got so much going on to talk with little ol’ me here. AMANDA: Thank you. It's a true pleasure. Happy to be here. MARY: One of the things that you're so busy with is this new class at Seneca Polytechnic…  AMANDA: Yep. MARY: …out in your east coast, Ontario, from me, West Coast, BC. AMANDA: Yes. MARY: Brand new class, Generative AI for Communicators. AMANDA: That's it, Yes. MARY: I was like, whoa, what is this?  AMANDA: Yeah. MARY: So, you know, I'm, I'm not a big AI fan. I'm still a little afraid of it. But when you think more about it, it's like, you know, back in the day when I remember when I was in high school, teachers were like, don't use your calculator. No calculators in math class. AMANDA: [LAUGHTER] Yep. MARY: And now look at us, right? So I feel like AI is similar to that so broadly. Tell us, especially for us who are fearing that AI, what is this class all about and why is it so important right now? AMANDA: Well, the class is brand new and it's part of also a brand new program. So it's, it's all just spanking new. [LAUGHTER] It's a bachelor's program from Seneca for Communications Management. And they're teaching the students in general in this program about storytelling, content creation, communication strategies for corporate communication, strategies for individuals, brand building, personal thought, leadership development, right? So it's trying to paint this picture of like, what that, that whole, where this fits into the bigger picture of the, of the actual degree they're earning.  And this course comes now in, and this is the first cohort of students coming through this new program. So this is why it's all. I love this stuff. This excites me. I like, you know, building and testing and just experimenting. And so I am using AI in my podcast production company, Lead Podcasting, and I also have a certificate from the University of Oxford. And so they reached out to me with the opportunity to bring this class to life, which was great. And so I'm also just responding to where the students are at. And so from a high level, the class is teaching really practical use cases, as the name says, to use AI for communications and that can be with more formal comms plans for corporate, but also as a freelancer who's maybe trying to get a gig as a copywriter.  And so it really ranges and we'll do different case studies. I brought in guest speakers. We've also been just following the news in general and talking about that. So one interesting thing that I was surprised by, I was getting ready, these are, you know, early 20s, the students in the class are in their early 20s and, I was ready for them to teach me too. I was ready. No, but they were really open to learning. They, a lot of them had not experimented with AI at all.  Some of them just truly had not even touched ChatGPT. Some had said, oh, they've used ChatGPT and that's it. Have not experimented with a single other thing. And I was shocked by that. I was expecting the younger generation to be all over this and, uh, telling me what apps they were using, but which I think, you know, for no matter what your age, just goes to show we're all in this together. I'm trying to figure this out. There's no advantage for anybody. We could all just dive in, even just me. I personally experiment with things and then I bring it into the classroom. So it is really evolving.  But some of the programs we're using, if you're curious and you want to do some experimenting, we've used Suno to create songs and in that use case for, in a comms plan, you know, a custom song for a presentation or an anthem for a campaign. And Suno, you could like put in your own lyrics or have it generate lyrics for you. You pick the genre, the voice and then it like creates a song for you. So that's one app and one in class activity that we just did and shared our songs. And then we're also doing. We used Boardy AI. I don't know if you've heard of this, but this is, uh, an app that is an AI generated voice that will call you and you have a conversation. So first off, it's really interesting just to be chatting with an AI agent… MARY: Yeah. AMANDA: …and so this was like day one of my class, I called and we like had the whole class listen into me talking with this AI agent. Cool. A great intro, right? And then I gave them the number so they could all have their own calls if they wanted. And essentially this agent tries to network for you and says, you know, we're a more global community. Work has become more globalized and going to networking events just doesn't cut it anymore. So you have a chat with me and then I look in my network of all the other people I've chatted to, and I see who might be a good fit for you to meet and you get to share what you're looking for.  And for students, it was great because they're all looking to network. They're trying to break into an industry. And so, yeah, that was really awesome to hear some students who on their own time did the call and it like went down a networking path with that agent. So there's a lot of experimenting and case studies like this. But on the other side, we're also getting really granular and looking at privacy policies line by line ethics. What do you think? You know, we're, we're getting into the, to the other side too. So it's, we're trying to have a very balanced approach of excitement and caution, you know so yeah… MARY: Yeah. AMANDA: …it's very interesting. Yeah, it's fun. MARY: I know that the other day I saw, you know, Google Gemini doing that AI agent type thing that you were talking about. It's how you can in real time talk to them and figure out what it is that you, you know, you're googling or whatnot or like if you're cooking something and like, should I be doing this temperature or should I fry or should I whatever. And it would help support you in that. And that's kind of interesting because it means that it's coming to the everyday user, so it's not going to be as scary anymore.  However, I do have a big ethics question which you lightly touched on there. You know, there is a huge bias of AI who don't see outside of that normative, white, patriarchal ecosystem that we live in. You know, AI generates voices that may sound like the person. Like if you get it to learn your voice, it learns your pitch, your frequency, pacing. But, what about for like people who are second language learners or those who are just podcasting as a passion and it's not meant to sound polished and, you know, corporate at all. What about that side of things? AMANDA: I think there's two parts to this answer. The first one is about the bias. And what I say to that is that is, just a reflection of humanity. AI, we built AI. So unfortunately it's pulling from things that we've also created as humanity and the biases that are showing up are the biases that exist in our world. So I think it feels scary because it's being reflected back to us so blatantly…  MARY: Mhmm. AMANDA: …but it's all already here. This is our world. So I, and, and the biases are going to change. Like, I think it's going to be interesting as users experiment. The biases will change depending where we are in the world. And the AI agents will be trained and learn biases in local contexts, right? Where if you're in Afghanistan, unfortunately, there are brides that are 11 years old. And so if you ask an AI that's been trained over there to generate the image of a bride, you might get a gal that looks really young…  MARY: Right. AMANDA: …And that's just because of the images it's sourcing from the users there. So we have to just recognize, you know, our role in all of this. And the, the optimist in me is like, maybe when it's so starkly reflected back to us, maybe actually we'll be challenged to be better as a, as a human race. MARY: So should it be like we need to use AI more just so it can learn about the diverse population? AMANDA: Yeah, I, that's how I look at it. I say, I'm going to learn it, I'm going to teach it, I'm going to teach this thing, I'm going to tell it. I don't want a white man being representative of a CEO, when I put it…  MARY: Yes.  AMANDA: …right, a CEO. And so I can prompt that and then it's learning from me. And I think we have this opportunity to, to make it better and change some of the, you know, there's so much data out there that would take so long to replicate and over surpass from a content creation perspective. But if we could, with prompts, start shifting the narrative, it'll learn faster from prompts than from, you know, and you can tell it, don't use database, use my prompts, right? And you can just guide it to being better. So I think there is a, there is a silver lining to this. Not to say it's not, it's not going to be perfect. It's going to take time.  And that kind of answers your second part of your original question, which was, you know, what about the real and raw authentic elements and how do we not make it so, you know, slickly polished when that's not what we want? And that's going to be part of, I mean, that's the human touch that you can add in or tell it to not alter. There's going to be opportunities for hybrid approaches to content creation which we can.  MARY: What do you mean by hybrid? AMANDA: Like, let's say somebody wants to make a podcast and they're, I don't know, 12 or 13. They're a young teen who doesn't even know really who their group of friends is yet. They're trying to figure themselves out and they don't really have a community of people they could invite onto their podcast. Maybe they could have a podcast with an AI agent that builds their confidence, makes them love their voice, feels more comfortable in conversation and interviewing, and then it's half human, half AI agent, and then eventually they develop into doing a full fledged one with two humans. But, like they're able to start in this hybrid format. MARY: Oh, I see what you mean. Yeah. It's like this playing in the sandbox. It's not going to be full on, like public consumption. People are going to judge you. It's a very safe space. AMANDA: It can be. And then you have to be careful and you have to understand what apps you're using and what the privacy policies of those apps are. One of the things I do in my classes, like, we actually pull up the privacy policy and start reading line by line, because we know that nobody reads the fine print. MARY: Yes. [LAUGHTER] AMANDA: And so I'm like, let's read it together. And then we actually. So we took the fine print from Deep Seek, which was an AI agent developed out of China, but we put it into ChatGPT to say, what are the privacy concerns that you see in Deep Seek? Right. Like, that was an interesting experiment. So you could use AI against itself.  MARY: Yeah. AMANDA: Yeah, it was neat. So anyway, I do think that there, it's going to be this, this moment of, of the wild, wild west where we're all just trying to figure it out. And also we have to recognise that there's a social acceptance around it all too. So, if you look in a lot of countries overseas, like in Korea, they have celebrities already, influencers, singers that are completely AI generated and people are following them on Instagram, showing up to their concerts. And there's fandom, there's true fandom around it. We in North America are not there yet. Like, we… MARY: Not even close. AMANDA: …not even close. But I think we'll get there. It's just going to take, it's going to be slower and there's going to be some bumps along the way. But so some of this voice stuff, you know, I don't think people are ready right now to fully sign on and like pay a patreon of a, of an AI generated closed situation. Like they're just not interested in that. But I do think over time that will change.  And I think what the first step will be not from content in general, because where people are very particular with their content, but it'll come in the form of like, health care, for instance, you know, everyone right now, or not everyone, and people in North America for the majority. I think if you ask them, would you like to see an AI agent doctor or a human doctor… MARY: Human. AMANDA: …they are going to choose human. Yeah. But when the moment comes that they say, hey, human doctor has an 80% chance of diagnosing you correctly and an agent has a 99% chance of diagnosing you correctly, which one would you like to see? In the triage unit of ER, people are going to start opting for AI agent just because of the stats. We won't be able to compete as humans. And so, once that happens, it's going to create the first step in trusting AI agents. And then with that will, will be a ripple effect that, that then, at some point down the line content will, then people will start opting for the content too. MARY: What about like, you're talking about, you know, that medical example. I get it. But then what about specifically for podcasting? Like, I had a discovery call with a potential new client and we were talking about his show. He already has an established show. And then I was like, oh, you, you also have some, you know, random solo episodes. And to me I was like, they didn't sound as that same energy that you had. And he was like, he was so excited. He was like, oh, that's because they were AI generated. Oh, I, I signed up for this program, it learned my voice and I can just create these short solo episodes with AI generated voice. And I was like, ooh, red flag, red flag. I. And I get why he chose that route and why he did it, but again, part of that society adopting into it. How do we remain transparent about the use of AI voice for podcasting specific so that we don't feel like we're tricking the listener for that shock that, oh, no, that, that wasn't human. Oh my gosh. I believed what he was saying and it wasn't even human. AMANDA: Yeah, it's scary, isn't it? MARY: Yeah. AMANDA: Right now, I think it's very important to be upfront because people are nervous about it. He's experimenting, so great. I'm happy for him. But we do have to label things really clearly because there is this nervousness around it. We have done some hybrid shows with AI voices at Lead Podcasting and we label and we put a disclaimer. We label it really clearly and we're using it for translation purposes, but that just helps with accessibility.  But right now there's. There's just a lot of questioning. We're not able to tell. And this is a lack of regulation and best practices. So we're all just figuring it out. Maybe in the future there's going to just be some ding that you hear the ding, you know there's an AI voice in there and that's it. You're not going to. MARY: Right. AMANDA: Like we're going to figure something out that is the signal or that we're going to just know, or it's like a little percentage sign that shows up beside your podcast on Apple and it's going to just tell you or whatever. So, like, we're going to have. We're going to. We're going to know, but right now we don't know how to know, so we have to just say it. [LAUGHTER] And as it continues to evolve and some of these, even, like the tech, the tech creators themselves might iterate and enable features that help with that transparency piece. So I think it's just coming. We just haven't. We're all just trying to figure it out right now. MARY: Yeah…  AMANDA: Yeah.  MARY: …and there's also, like, the things that we might not have realised in the podcasting world that we have been using AI anyway.  AMANDA: Yes.  MARY: Like, when I really thought about it, I was like, oh, no, wait, you know, like the automatic transcription, the audiograms we make, the video captions, the creating the clips, the teaser clips. These are already things that were using that podcasters might not realise is all AI driven. So… AMANDA: Yes. MARY: …it's there. AMANDA: It's there. I mean, and this comes down to the definition, like AI. Artificial Intelligence is, yeah, everywhere. It's generative AI that has suddenly gotten very good. MARY: Mmm. AMANDA: So generative being that it can create and spit out a deliverable and engage with you in a very human, like, way. And that has come down to, like, if you really want to peel it all back, is this. It's not that we didn't have the idea or the concept of how to make this happen, it's that we, we didn't have the computing power to make it happen.  And the computing power has now become a reality. And so that's why Geoffrey Hinton, who now is a Nobel Peace Prize winner and seen as the godfather of deep learning, which is the core of generative AI, you know, he knew this was all possible, but he just couldn't figure out the computing power, piece, the computing. So he was, you know, it's interesting that in, in the 80s, he was talking about all of this and generative AI, this concept, it being a reality. And he was laughed out of academic settings because it just seemed so impossible from a computing standpoint. But here we are. So I'm actually happy for him that he got to see it in his lifetime.  MARY: That’s true.  AMANDA: But I also think he's quite scared now. He's like the one that's dialling it all back, being like, I regret it. So. But it's a lot. It's a lot. He's been talking, he's been researching this for decades. MARY: Yeah. And that scary part is what I think we're all afraid of the unknown. So then how do we use AI for good? What's the good thing? AMANDA: I mean, if, if humanity is good, which is. [LAUGHTER] And then we cue the nervous laughter because it's scary and we can't, we don't know. And, and it is a reflection of ourselves. And there are all these theories of how do you put, you know, parameters around what you build in order for it to never go rogue. But there's always loopholes. And so even as we were trying to, in my University of Oxford class, pick apart some of the rules you could put in place. It's hard even just as something as like, all right, a robot could never kill a human. Just. No, no killing allowed. But then what if the agent is your personal, you know, you're thinking about, of like a personal assistant that lives with you or something? This, this robot. But what if also its directive is to keep you safe and then a burglar comes in and shooting at you and then like, you do want the robot to shoot that.  So there's just all these nuances. It's very, very hard to make loophole rules. So, yeah. Is there a chance that things are going to go wrong? Especially in this next, like, decade? For sure, it's probably going to be like, in my head, I think there's going to be a messy middle where, like, big mistakes are going to happen. People will die just, just even out of error. But it will ultimately, to a better society, I think we would get over that hump. And it will be. For it will ultimately be good. And I don't think people will lose their lives.  You know, like, it might feel like it's in jest, but in the reality is, in life, people lose their lives from silly mistakes all the time. And this is just going to be part of that. So I don't think there's like, some major apocalyptic moment coming, but I do think there might be some. Some scary stories that emerge because of errors and learning. The learning that has to happen on the AI agents side and our side. MARY: Yes. Yeah. The humanity side of it all. AMANDA: Yeah. MARY: Okay. Our science fiction dreams are coming true. AMANDA: Yeah. In short. Yes. MARY: Well, let's not keep going down this dark, scary path. Let's switch to, like, podcast specific… AMANDA: Yeah.  MARY: …broadly for the podcasting industry. You know, you are the author of Let's Talk Podcasting, which recently has an updated second edition. Congratulations for that one. And I always say, yeah, podcasting changes so quickly. There's things that's happening all the time. And so I was happy to see an updated version. But, I bet even since that's been published, like, what are some of the things that. Even now that the second edition is out. AMANDA: Oh my gosh.  MARY: Aside from the AI stuff we just talked about, what. What else has been new since then? AMANDA: I purposely did not go deep on the AI in this book because I knew it would just change in two seconds. So I do a I just do a quick overview, but I don't go deep on app specifics. One thing that's a fun fact is that I was about to go to print, like, truly a day away. And Chartable announces they’re sun setting. MARY: Oh, yes. AMANDA: I had the chance to go in and delete, backspace. That got updated right in the nick of time. So as far as I know, nothing in the book is. Has been outdated just yet. Thank goodness. But it did. It was interesting to go back to look at my. The first edition came out in 2018. I started writing the first edition in 2016. So you can imagine. Yeah, like, this was feels and it's like some things I didn't even remember existed in the podcast space that I were in this book. And I went, oh, my gosh. If you want a little trip down memory lane, like, you try to get that 2018 version, it's funny to just compare it.  But, you know, some of the best practices, obviously, are still the same. So there was. There's definitely elements that I've learned more and I integrated more anecdotes just from my own life of how I brought some of those best practices to fruition. But in, as far as technology goes, yes, I think there's a huge push around the AI and the apps that are coming out and their abilities and how good they are. So right now we use Eleven Labs for the voice generated stuff at Lead Podcasting and who knows, like I think that one's really respected right now in the industry. But that could change in two seconds.  Everyone's, it's like a little race of who's iterating the fastest, who's serving the users the most. I think video podcasting in general is a very interesting trend to track and I'm a big audio first person. I know you are too. Yeah, I mean we're on clean feed right now, so but this is so, you know, we don't, we. This was how it all really began and so it's like the audio purist. But I don't, I don't negate all of the brilliant work that's been done in the video podcast space. I'm just mindful that people talk about podcasting as a trend. I don't think the medium is a bubble that's going to burst, but I do think the video aspect of it is, it is a little bit more bubble-esque, so to say.  Like, this trend of having two people sitting and like with a Shure microphone on the, on a big stand, like that imagery with it and then the thumbnail with the cutout and like three big words with one of them highlighted. Like we could all imagine this visual like that is of its time. And I think in 10 years we'll look back and be like, that was so 2025, you know? MARY: Cringe moment.  AMANDA: Yeah, it'll be like, oh, cute. That's what they were doing. And it won't, that, that won't last forever, but it will iterate in some way. And I'm sure there will always be some form of video podcast, but I just don't think it's gonna like look and feel and sound the way it is right now. And so I barely talked about video podcasts in the first edition. I did a whole thing on it in this edition. So that's an example of one, you know, emerging trend that's really changed since then that I, and that I foresee will continue to evolve. MARY: Yeah, it's very interesting to see everyone, well, the big names, the big players in the podcasting industry, you know, so for, you know, independent podcasters looking up their role models, it's usually gonna be those celebrity podcasts with a big team behind them like the Smartless or Julia Louise Dreyfus’ show or a lot of business people love Mel Robbins. You know, these are the leaders that every podcaster that is in that smaller independent space looks up to.  But I feel like there's still a big difference when it comes to those type of shows versus the independent shows. You know, we're doing this as a passion project or we're solopreneurs and using it as a marketing piece. So what is the biggest difference, though, that you see that these independent podcasters need to do and not emulate from the big celebrity shows? AMANDA: Yeah, I think it's being realistic with yourself and your expectations and your goals. And I think those celebrity shows are nice to draw inspiration from, to get you excited from the medium, but they have teams of 35 people behind them. They have a celebrity name going into it that's going to have a baked in audience. And these are things that are not always as easy to come by when you are an independent.  And so, you know, I say in the book, if you are looking to just how do I write an intro? How do I write a closing? You could kind of mimic the pacing and this number of sentences and the kinds of words that are used from those big players. I think I encourage that, you know, mimic that, that cadence. People like it, you like it. So sure. But when it comes to growth goals or even production standards, I even talk about, like, I kind of made up these definitions because I didn't know how else to put words to it. But the difference between a cleanup edit and a content edit is a big deal, and it's gonna make your podcast sound very different.  So a cleanup being. We're just cleaning it up. You know, you sneeze halfway through, we're gonna take it out. Yeah, you stumbles for 10 seconds straight. We'll tighten that up. And we're putting some music and it's basically as we say in radio, live to tape. You're doing it and you know the whole thing is gonna go out. So some of these celebrity podcasters do that. Like Joe Rogan, for sure. There's no editing. You could tell. And he's found success in that he doesn't even take out the sneezes. It's really live to tape with him and, but that, you know, and that's gonna create a certain sound. But not everybody could pull that off and have a three hour podcast and like measure themselves up against that.  MARY: Yeah. AMANDA: And then also recognizing ones like, Wiser Than Me with Julia, as you mentioned, like, she as a whole team. And I can only imagine that they're doing content edits where maybe that interview was actually two hours long. They've rearranged it. They've done pickups, they've taken out large chunks, and then the final episodes, 45 minutes. And it's only the best stuff. So I find number one, recognizing, hey, what am I listening to? And what am I expecting of myself? So some people are listening to these content edit shows and being like, okay, so I want to sound like that. And that's not even realistic. They don't even sound like that. That is so much work. So don't try to measure yourself to that standard.  And then recognizing, okay, I'm going to do a cleanup edit or we're just going to live to tape and I'm going to be famous like, like Joe Rogan. And that's also not, you know, realistic, because not everyone can get away with an unproduced podcast like that and see that kind of success. So just, like, recognizing the production, have a critical ear, and then setting goals for yourself, like, what are you truly trying to accomplish? And this is what I ask a lot of people who are wanting to start, like, are you just wanting to tell your story and get it out in the world? Are you trying to hit number one on Apple? Is that, like, really, is that why you're doing this? Trying make money? Is this part of a business thing? Then the way your show's formatted, the way you go about it, the way you invest in it, it changes. So you really have to be clear on the why. And I mean, Start With Why by Simon Sinek is a very powerful TED Talk. So watch that first, and then you could, like, use that to help inspire the why of your show. MARY: Yeah, that is such a great foundation. And it's also, you know, when we were talking about what's new, what's different, another new thing that you've done is create a kids' version of that book. AMANDA: Yeah. MARY: Which I was so excited to see because back in September 2020, my daughter was entering kindergarten. So, like, first school, you know, but pandemic…  AMANDA: Yep. MARY: …and her kindergarten teacher was wanting to create a classroom podcast.  AMANDA: Oh that’s so cute! MARY: So just, you know, for the kids, but also to include, you know, the caregivers. So I love seeing now that you've got this book that is for these kids in the young elementary school age. So why did you decide to go that route? AMANDA: Yeah, so that's okay. So the book is a picture book, and it's a how to. It really is an explainer, and it's targeted for kids age 5 to 8. There are no introductory resources of this kind for kids that age to introduce them to podcasting as a medium. And so, I was like, it's, you know, once I started doing research and realising that, I was like, oh, my gosh, it's, I have to just. Just put this out in the universe.  But how it all came to be, interestingly, was I was starting to get booked for podcasting workshops for Girl Guides, for summer camps and some classrooms, and this. The kids were so responsive. It was incredible. I played an episode of Case 63. If you don't know it, it's a Spotify original. Julianne Moore. It's sci fi. Really great. And the first episode's eight minutes. And I went, all right, I don't know, I'll start playing this. I'll just read the room, see how long they last. This was for a group of gals that were like 9 to 12. And all of these kids closed their eyes and listened to that entire eight minutes, audio only. And then it ends on a cliffhanger.  [LAUGHER] And they're like, no, what happened? They were so cute. And I was like, oh, my gosh, this is powerful. And then when I was writing the second edition of my book, so kind of all at the same time, it was over the summer, I did that summer camp. I'm writing the book, the second edition, and I just start updating all the stats. I'm literally just diving into the research that I hadn't gotten so granular with. I was. I was surprised to see the jumps in listenership for kids under 12. I went, oh, wow, wow, wow. This is huge. Disney's investing. Like, this is, this is big. And I don't have kids, so I didn't know anecdotally, but I knew anecdotally from my workshops. I knew from the research. I just thought, so while I was writing the second edition of the book, I went, I guess I'm writing a kid's book too.  [LAUGHTER] So it was the last second decision we wrote at the same time. As soon as the graphic designer was done the, was done the adult version of the book, I was like, next project right here.  MARY: Gosh.  AMANDA: And we pumped out the kids' version. So now, yeah, it's great to have out in the world. MARY: I love that you're, like, supporting the next generation of podcasters as well. AMANDA: I love that for them. MARY: Yeah. And they, you know, for them, at least for my daughter, specifically, right? Because she's like, you know what, what do your parents do in class? Right. And my Daughter's like, my mom works in podcasting, you know, And I'm like, that's so cool.  AMANDA: So cool. MARY: And then when she's. She's at home and she's like, can I be on the podcast? I'm like, well, you can't be on this one…  AMANDA: Oh that’s so sweet! MARY: …but you can try and make your own? And then, you know, and I was like, you know what? You don't have to do, like, my version of a podcast. But you have an iPad. AMANDA: Yeah. MARY: It's got a microphone attached to it. AMANDA: Yeah. MARY: So just create something. And she started filming like, her, this was a few years ago during, I think it was still pandemic season. So, like, she was, she got all her stuffies and she created a stage. She drew a background behind it.  AMANDA: Oh my gosh. MARY: And she kept calling it the whole time. Oh, this is my podcast. In my mind, I'm like, that's not a podcast. But okay. [LAUGHTER] AMANDA: Yes. Well, that's what's funny. Kids are using the word podcast very interestingly.  MARY: Yes. AMANDA: I noticed that it's like any video, any conversation is being referred to as a podcast, which I know us will be like, no, that's not correct. But also, they're the ones who are going to define what a podcast is. MARY: Exactly. AMANDA: So I guess that is. And we talk about that a little bit in the book. I say I actually have a line in there that says the definition of podcasting keeps changing. MARY: Yeah. AMANDA: So, because that. Who knows what it's going to be even five years from now, what people will be referring to when they use that word. MARY: I know, exactly. So, yeah, when she was like, this is a podcast. I'm like, yes, yes, it is. You go have fun. AMANDA: Oh, that's so sweet. Oh, my gosh. You have to record these moments also for your own self. I hope you get this down. It's so special. MARY: Oh, so, yes. I love that you're, you know, talking about the next generation of podcasters for, like, the young kids, but also, like the whole next generation of podcasting with AI.  AMANDA: Yeah.  MARY: So there's so much changing. But in this very moment, as we are recording at the end of March 2025. What are you podcasting right now? AMANDA: The kids stuff really excites me. It's a total divergence from everything I've done in my career. I've done corporate thought leaders, you know, and so, this kids book is the start for me, I think, of a whole other path that I'm excited to go down further. So that for sure, that's a whole, I have so many ideas. Like, I don't even know where to begin. I bought. You don't even know how many domains I went and just bought up...  MARY: Love this! This is amazing. AMANDA: …Idea, idea, idea. So I just. I'm trying to calm. Calm down. But I have a whole. Like, I'm very excited about that as a world. And, you know, I've spent my whole life creating podcasts for other people, and it's so, and I've hosted some, but they were never mine. Like, it was never really, really mine. MARY: I know I was deep diving on you, and I'm like, I can't find your own podcast interesting. AMANDA: It’s strange, I know. Well, and I always say, I mean, I have such joy in bringing other people’s to life and. And I spent so much time in radio where I got to talk a lot. Like, I'm okay, but, you know, I, but I, I do actually want to make my own. I want to do something that's like, again, you think about the why. Like, I want to do something that I just want to do as my own for my own personal self. So. Yeah, that's kind of, I'm excited about that idea too. Well, we got to just. We gotta wait. That'll be 2026 for sure. That's, we're not getting into that this year. MARY: All right. I'm excited to, uh, go on all those multiple websites that you've. AMANDA: Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I'm like a, I'm like a platinum member with Squarespace. They love me. Yeah. [LAUGHTER] MARY: Amanda, this has been amazing. So much fun chatting with you, and I cannot, uh, wait to see what comes up next for you. And if you ever need, uh. Well, my daughter's nine now. If you need a 9, 10. AMANDA: Okay. MARY: Year old for anything, let me know. AMANDA: I gotta start my talent scouting. So. Yeah, I'm gonna. I'm gonna ask for her demo, and we'll be in touch. MARY: Yeah. Awesome. AMANDA: Thanks, Mary. This was really fun. [MUSIC IN] MARY: Okay. Disclaimer. Well, okay, maybe this should have been at the top of the show, but after listening to that conversation, it felt like I needed a disclaimer that no AI voice was used in the making of this podcast. But I guess you would have guessed that, right? Yeah, I just. I needed to let you know, just because of the conversation that we just had about being transparent. So here we are.  But as we were saying, I still use AI for certain tasks, like creating that initial transcript. It is AI generated, and then we as humans go through it to make those edits. And do things like spell last names correctly. Amanda's last name get spelled wrong all the time. So we do those things to make sure that we add that element of humanity to it. Because AI transcripts are just the words. But we like adding in a little bit of those emotional spots like, laughter, which happens a lot in this episode. You'll see it in the transcript. Laughter. It's those nuanced parts of the conversation that is all audio that never, ever gets picked up by AI generated transcripts. So we love adding that human touch.  Podcasts as well when they're published out into the world. You might not know it, but because it is publicly available, some major tech companies have probably downloaded it to use in a language learning model without our direct consent. Things are happening. But I think what Amanda was getting at is that you can also be really amazing to learn from. Having that curiosity to see what the possibilities are to, as we were saying, do some good in the world. But there will be that messy middle, as she says, anything that we are learning and integrating into our lives, even if it's really small things like cooking or learning to drive, testing out a new device, a phone that you have, there's always a learning curve. And with generative AI, there's a learning curve too. But those can have a bigger impact when generative AI make mistakes.  So it's going to take some learning and growing, but even that time frame is shrinking. The amount of knowledge that these models have now has grown exponentially in the last few years. So with more and more research and technology scaling this, maybe these mistakes won't be as costly as we might fear because we are learning at a bigger scale. Machines will be able to learn quickly from their mistakes, hopefully, and actually be useful and do that good in the world that we're hoping for, representing the diverse population that we have. Having the regular podcaster like you be represented in the ever changing AI landscape can hopefully represent who we all are instead of one type of person that these AI models are learning from. So don't be afraid to use it. Maybe I'm just saying that to ease my own fears.  So tell me, are you using AI or even generative AI in your podcast? Does the AI voice scare you or are you experimenting with it? Let me know by leaving a voice note from my website, VisibleVoicePodcast.com or as always, an email is great too a VisibleVoicePodcast@gmail.com and I'm hoping that you will type out this email or voice it yourself and not have an AI do it.  On the next episode, we're going to examine, examine what it's like to take a pause from your podcast. You know, the weather is getting warmer, people are re-evaluating things and what is important. And sometimes the podcast needs to take a little bit of a break or a backseat. So how do we restart or re-imagine your podcast if we're in a season of overwhelm in business, for example, what, what can you do to prep for this pause? Take a little summer vacation for yourself. What can it look like when you're back? We're going to figure out some of these things on the next episode, so I'll talk to you then.  [MUSIC ENDS] > MARY: Thank you so much for listening to the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice. If you enjoyed this episode, I'd love it if you’d share it with a podcasting friend. And to reveal more voicing and podcasting tips, click on over to VisibleVoicePodcast.com. Until next time. > [MUSIC ENDS]

How can you take your guest episodes beyond a basic Q&A? When you think of a podcast, what comes to mind? If “a mic and two people talking” is your first thought, you’re in good company, but in this episode, Mary encourages you to expand that definition. Your show is about so much more than the interview. That one-time guest isn’t the person who keeps listeners coming back week after week—that’s you! So, how can you use strategic guest selection to leverage the values, interests, and timing of both the host and the listener? When you bring on not just the most popular guest but the one who is truly the best fit, you gain a stronger episode, a more dedicated listener base, and a more cohesive show. Get picky about your guest picks with these helpful tips: Why this month’s most sought-after podcast guest might not be the right choice for you Why platforms that match guests to podcasts aren’t ideal How your podcast values play into your guest selection every time How to tweak your publishing schedule to get the most out of every episode. Links worth mentioning from the episode: Episode 62, How to Land Someone From Your Dream Guest List: https://www.organizedsound.ca/how-to-land-someone-from-your-dream-guest-list-episode-62/ Episode 71, Celebrating with Values to Nourish Your Podcast: https://www.organizedsound.ca/celebrating-with-values-to-nourish-your-podcast-year-end-break-episode-71 Connect with Mary! Leave a voice note with your feedback at https://www.speakpipe.com/VisibleVoice or email visiblevoicepodcast@gmail.com Get the full transcript of the episode at http://www.visiblevoicepodcast.com Read up on more secrets with the Visible Voice Insights Newsletter https://www.organizedsound.ca/newsletter To learn more or work with Mary, check out https://www.organizedsound.ca Link up on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/marychan-organizedsound/ Engage on Instagram @OrganizedSoundProductions https://www.instagram.com/organizedsoundproductions Show Credits: Podcast audio design, engineering, and edited by Mary Chan of Organized Sound Productions Show notes written by Shannon Kirk of Right Words Studio Post-production support by Kristalee Forre of Forre You VA Podcast cover art by Emily Johnston of Artio Design Co. Transcript with Audio Description: [MUSIC IN - GHOSTHOOD FEATURING SARA AZRIEL “LET’S GO” BEGINS] MARY: When you think of a podcast these days, what do you envision? Like, what is a podcast? Most people I talk to tend to say that if there's a microphone and there's two people talking, you've got a podcast. So, yes, that could be a good barometer. Like, a lot of the celebrity type podcasts are going that route. But podcasting is more than just interviews.  I mean, this episode alone is a solo episode where there is no guest, but it still is a podcast. With the exceptional growth in podcasting since the pandemic, when we were all at home listening away, connecting to other humans through our earbuds and headphones, we've seen this interview style show get replicated over and over and over again. And I see the allure you want to emulate your favourite thought leaders. It's an easy route to get started, and we want to have a connection with someone. So an interview style show is definitely the way to go.  However, what if we can make interview style shows better? What if it's more than just two people talking? On this episode, we're going to take a look at what we can be doing differently for our podcast and how being choosy about your guests will actually make a better show for you as the creator and for your listeners.  This is episode number 94 on the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice.  > Over the years, as I created my show, this very podcast, almost at 100 episodes, yay, I'm gonna get there.  [MUSIC ENDS] I've evolved based on my interests, capacity, and curiosity too, like wanting to experiment for myself and for my clients, using this podcast as a testing ground. Some of the things I did was change up my branding, my frequency, and even my format. So if you actually look back on the history of this very podcast, you'll see in my first year, I did only solo episodes every single week. And that was tough. It was a slog to get through, but it was my goal because I wanted to see what that felt like, to do an episode every single week, because that's what everybody was saying. You had to produce content every single week. And I'm glad I met that goal. But I totally knew that path was not for me. I am not a weekly content creator in that sense. Proud to have done it, but glad it didn't stick.  And then when you look back, my second year, I went to rotating guest and solo episodes. That publishing every two weeks format, which I still have today. And it's a pace that really challenges me, yet gives me the pauses I need during the summer and winter and so, this every two weeks with the little mini breaks in between. I really fell into this and really loved this frequency and really loved what this gave me in terms of joy of creating the podcast, yet still something that I could do in my capacity with running my business. And still actually at that time when I was starting recovering a lot from my traumatic brain injury from my accident that I had and you know, having a family and life and all that stuff too. So that was great to figure out in my second year.  My third year, I refreshed my branding to see what that impact was like, because like with all things, you know, things evolve and you want to change how things look a bit. So why not? Tried that out in my third year, which is still the branding that you see today. Year four, I was more particular about my guest choices. This is where I was experimenting more about this theme for this episode, about strategic interviews and how do I choose my guests and what does that really entail in the whole grand scheme of things and the value of my podcast and in the industry too. I started seeing trends towards guesting companies popping up like those matchmaker type things, and I wanted to see how those worked and why some guests were always not such a great match for your show. I really wanted to experience what that was like.  And then that takes us to last year and now this year. Years five and six, I've gotten into a really good rhythm, at least from this recording, right? Like, I feel very in line with what I'm doing with my guests and making sure that the ones that I choose to come on the show are aligned with certain themes or my curiosities. And you know, your curiosities too, because you asked me questions about podcasting and sometimes those themes are very timely or sometimes they're just have been simmering in the background for a while and I've just been waiting for the right person to show up.  My point is everyone grows and learns and so does your podcast. So looking at how you choose your guests can also change. And that is okay. [MUSIC IN] As I said earlier, many of the big name shows we want to emulate because we look up to them. They look like they're doing something right. Right? So if they're doing X, why can't we, they have success with guests on their show, so why can't we have guests as well? Many of the big name talk shows are big names because of the very fact that they have a talk show. An interview style podcast, of course, is very similar and in line with that same structure. You pretty much have your own talk show.  But what many people don't realize is that those huge big name shows also have a huge team behind them, whether that's for the actual production and editing of the show or for things like guest coordination. And this is where my episode here is really landing. I'm getting tired of that guest coordination side of things on podcast episodes. On one hand, I get it, you are the star of your show. You don't have time to schedule guests for those big name talk shows. That makes sense.  But on the other hand, it smells like they're only focused on the publicity cycle. You know, like A, these guests are an easy land as long as you talk about what they want to promote, that's the whole promotional publicity cycle. B, makes it easy for you to fill a spot on your publishing schedule. Nothing like some easy guests to have, right? And C, they are on all the other big name shows already, so they're doing a publicity circuit, the cycle or in the podcast world, usually it's a podcast book tour, instead of in person book tours. Podcast book tours are now a thing.  This is the same when you think about actors who are promoting a new movie. All you see are the same actors, actors going on a different “Jimmy like” talk show, right? You get the same guests and sometimes the same stories.  Now I know what you're thinking. I'm not a big time show. Yes, I might want to try and emulate some things, but I'm still an independent podcaster, so I don't have this problem. You know, we're not going to get a listers on our show, right? In an ideal world, I'd love to have them, but they're probably not going to come on my show. I can still dream, but in reality, let's bring it back down to reality. This can still relate. Think about this from a listener standpoint.  If you are taking people who are releasing a book, are they doing their own podcast book tour that you might not know about? So, from a listener standpoint, if you are hearing and seeing the same guests on all your favourite shows, yes, sure, they might tell different stories, but mostly they are all doing the same tour cycle. That means the same messaging. They're going to talk about their book. So why should I, as a listener, tune into your show instead of my favourite show that already has that guest on? I may not necessarily actually want to listen to a new show when this guest has already been on my most favourite show.  Will having this bigger name guest do more for you than just say, like a download spike the day or week that that episode has been published? Will you actually bring in more listeners for your show on a longer term basis? My bet is no, because on that show you haven't enticed them to stay for other episodes. Because interview style shows are all about the guest, not the host. So as a host, what can you do differently and try and sway those listeners to stay?  [MUSIC ENDS] I mentioned earlier about using those platforms that match hosts with guests. While those are convenient, they don't provide very compelling content. Meaning sometimes it's just your standard questions. I mean sometimes they even come prepared with questions for you to ask. So it's just a ask, answer, ask answer. It's again, not very compelling. I would also dare to say that they actually require you to do more work because you don't know who they are. You're required to do more research coming up with those questions, spending hours of your time or someone you've hired, their time, if you're lucky enough to hire someone because you've got the funds for it, spending all that time doing that research and coming up with those questions and that journey and theme for that episode.  So I would argue that if you were more choosy about which guests you wanted on your show up front, you'll have an easier time to come up with question and themes around the episode because you already have a natural curiosity about what you want to ask them. As I always say, it's the follow up questions that really brings out the best conversations. So you can't pre write or prep for that. That will naturally come to you because you've done the research on this guest and especially when you are curious about their topic. So how do you be more choosy?  [MUSIC IN] First, I want to touch back on your podcasting values to refresh yourself on that. I do have episode number 71, Celebrating With Values To Nourish Your Podcasts. Go back and listen to that one. In that episode, I do talk about one of my values, which is to have fun. My podcast has to be fun in order for me to make it. If it's not fun, I'm not doing it. And one of those things that I do to make it fun is to have system and processes. I know systems and processes might not sound like fun, but if I get bogged down by my system and processes, then it's not going to be fun. See what I mean? So, I focus more of my time on the fun stuff when I have my systems and processes in place.  So before making any decisions on who will be your guest. I always ask myself, will this be fun? Because that's my value. Does this person sound fun, or fun meaning passionate? Fun doesn't always have to mean, like, laughter and parties. Are they passionate about their subject? When you listen to them on other podcasts, you'll find out you'll hear that passion in their voice. Second question would be, would you actually want to be in a physical room with them for over an hour? You know, think about, like, networking, where you have to saddle up to a stranger and like, talk about, hi, this is what I do, who are you? In that room would you want to hang out with them for about an hour? If you answer no to any of those two questions, then the guest is not worth it. At least for me and my values. Right?  So for your show, which value does this guest bring out? What makes them intriguing to be on your show? What will your ideal listener learn from them? That last question actually is quite vital because everything you do needs to be focused on your listener.  [MUSIC ENDS] The next thing, actually I allude to this in episode 62, How To Land Someone From Your Dream Guest List is the why? Why do you even want them on your show? This why has to be part of your values. So this why, for me, has to be fun. You'll need to know this why, so that A, you can figure out if it's in alignment with your show, your values, and your ideal listener. B, have that why ready to share with your email invite to your guest if that's part of your workflow, and C, so that it's part of your show prep.  You're already doing the heavy lifting of research and coming up with questions when you're searching out for that ideal guest, right? You're being choosy when you're doing your research. So it's not like you pick your guest and then you do your research. No, you're already doing your research when you're trying to figure out if you want this guest on your show or not. So you're doing like, two birds, one stone type of deal.  So by the time you actually invite the guests, I already have a list of questions or themes that I want answered even before they have said yes. So it can go both ways. You can either come up with questions and the theme first to land a guest, or you can hear about a guest and then start doing your research and having your curiosity piqued to write down those questions and then see if you want them on your show.  [MUSIC IN] The last thing we'll talk about is around scheduling and publishing the episode. Is there a date that would maximize this conversation? Now, most of the time for interviews, if they're doing the publicity tour, they're going to request that the episode gets published around the publishing date of their book. So when you think about that talk show circuit or the podcast book tours, that's what their publicists are hoping that you will do. This is because they're hoping when they hear about the book on your podcast from the guest that they want to immediately go out and buy it and then it will be available. Plus there will be a spike in sales because all the episodes are being published that week. But is this really going to maximize the conversation? Like I was saying before, everyone's going to hear the same stuff on all the shows. So what if you publish before the book gets released? More and more authors I've seen talk about pre-sales I don't know how many times in my email inbox. Authors are talking about how pre-sales are really important to signal to the publisher that the book is valuable. This creates momentum for the author, you know, things like that.  So why not pre-sale talk before the book is out? Doing the publicity tour essentially, but a lot sooner so it's not all bombarded at the same time. You're creating a conversation that probably hasn't happened yet on other shows. This could be months in advance. I've seen authors newsletters talk about pre-sales for months before the book is out. So why can't this be done on podcasts too? And you create this really unique opportunity for you and for the author.  The strategy of course will only last until all the talk shows and interview style podcasts pick up on it. And they'll all start doing it too. But if you're allowed to, I would go that route because it creates uniqueness for your show.  [MUSIC ENDS] So how can you reimagine interviews for your podcast? Let me know where can you make room for improvement? If you've been doing the same thing day in and day out for your interview style podcast or your interview style episodes like I have, it's not a total makeover, but what you can tweak to improve your process, your flow and your podcast in general, I would love to know.  So definitely send me a voice note on my website VisibleVoicePodcast.com email is also lovely, VisibleVoicePodcast@gmail.com I'd love to hear your thoughts on, uh, things you want to tweak or what you learned from this episode. So what are you going to evaluate on your show for your interviews? Are you already incorporating guests on your show? And if you do, how are you going to utilize their appearance to make your show better?  [MUSIC IN] On the next episode, we're going to dive a little bit into the celebrity podcast stuff that we're talking about, because we're going to learn from Amanda Cupido, who is an amazing legendary podcaster and legendary in the radio space too. That's how we were mostly connecting. We're like, oh, my gosh, radio, you and me and in Canada and a woman. Don't know if those things are so rare, but it feels like it's so rare.  But mostly, Amanda and I, you'll love this. We will actually chat about generative AI and how that impacts your podcast currently and for the future of podcasting. Is it scary? Is it not scary? And how hopefully you can use AI for good. She actually teaches about this in Ontario, and so she's a wealth of information. You're gonna love her. Tune into that next time.  [MUSIC ENDS] > MARY: Thank you so much for listening to the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice. If you enjoyed this episode, I'd love it if you share it with a podcasting friend. And to reveal more voicing and podcasting tips, click on over to VisibleVoicePodcast.com. Until next time. > [MUSIC ENDS]

What’s the right way to go about being a guest on other podcasts? When’s the last time you went on another show as a guest? As a podcast host, it’s easy to get bogged down in the day-to-day requirements of running a podcast. After all, you’re expected to find guests, record episodes, edit episodes, post everything online, and find fresh ways to get the word out. Here’s the good news: being a guest on other podcasts is an excellent way to market your own show. Need more convincing? In this episode, we spell out the benefits with Julie Fry, the CEO of Your Expert Guest. Julie and her team are dedicated to finding their clients opportunities to be podcast guests. Turns out, there are plenty of reasons for podcast hosts to moonlight as guests, from positive impacts on your mission and messaging to growing your mailing list. Julie is brimming with tips for streamlining your pitch and plan, highlighting your call to action, and building lasting relationships with hosts and audiences alike. Guest better (or better yet, start guesting) with Julie’s practical, insightful suggestions: Why you need to nail down your guest goals before you dive in What really works to get your target host’s attention Why you need to purge your pitch of “I” statements Key steps for the post-interview follow-up. Links worth mentioning from the episode: The Podcast Host, “Podcast Guests are Secretly Paying $50,000 to Go on Shows”: https://www.thepodcasthost.com/business-of-podcasting/podcast-advertorial-secrets/ The Canadian Code of Advertising Standards, “Influencer Marketing”: https://adstandards.ca/resources/influencer-marketing/ Competition Bureau of Canada, “Deceptive Marketing Practices”: https://competition-bureau.canada.ca/en/deceptive-marketing-practices Rephonic - https://rephonic.com/ Listen Notes - https://www.listennotes.com Episode 69, Intangible Values of a Podcast, “What It Means For Stats, Metrics, and Monetization”: https://www.organizedsound.ca/intangible-values-of-a-podcast-what-it-means-for-stats-metrics-and-monetization-episode-69/ Connect with Mary! Leave a voice note with your feedback at https://www.speakpipe.com/VisibleVoice or email visiblevoicepodcast@gmail.com Get the full transcript of the episode at http://www.visiblevoicepodcast.com Read up on more secrets with the Visible Voice Insights Newsletter https://www.organizedsound.ca/newsletter To learn more or work with Mary, check out https://www.organizedsound.ca Link up on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/marychan-organizedsound/ Engage on Instagram @OrganizedSoundProductions https://www.instagram.com/organizedsoundproductions Show Credits: Podcast audio design, engineering, and edited by Mary Chan of Organized Sound Productions Show notes written by Shannon Kirk of Right Words Studio Post-production support by Kristalee Forre of Forre You VA Podcast cover art by Emily Johnston of Artio Design Co. Transcript with Audio Description: [MUSIC IN - GHOSTHOOD FEATURING SARA AZRIEL “LET’S GO” BEGINS] MARY: How do you figure out what success looks like when you're a guest on another podcast? What is that return on investment of your time? You know, a lot of people might think, is it really worth it, or is it something I can really do? Is that possible? Spoiler alert. Yes. In this episode, we're going to talk all about that, but we're also going to focus on what's changing today in the podcast guesting landscape that can really affect you and your podcast. So in this episode, you're going to hear from Julie Frey, the Founder of Your Expert Guest, a podcast visibility agency for women making an impact who want to be heard by their ideal client without spending hours on social media. We're talking effortless visibility by using strategic podcast guesting to grow your own podcast.  This is episode number 93 with Julie Fry on the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice.  > MARY: Julie, thank you so much for coming on the show. I'm so glad we get to reconnect and have this time together. [MUSIC ENDS]  JULIE: Me too. Thank you so much, Mary. I'm really excited for this conversation. MARY: Yes. Because I think there's a lot of, like, myths and things that people have just been doing because it's stuff that is kind of, like, secondhand now. They're like, oh, yeah, I'm a guest, or, oh, if I want to be a guest, I just do XYZ and ta da done. [LAUGHTER] But I feel like it's more than just that. There's strategy involved. And so I was like, ooh, you're the person that needs to come on to talk about podcast guesting. JULIE: I love that. Yes. There is a lot more to just saying, okay, I'm in a guest on podcasts. MARY: Yeah. I'm just gonna ask and everything will be okay, but okay. In the work that I do, there's two sides of being a guest. That's just being a guest and not having your own show. And so you're just going on different shows and talking about your message and promoting your work and stuff like that. But there's also the other side of it when you are a host and you have guests. So there's like, the hosting side of it, but in your line of work, you kind of have to deal with both. You know, you're working with people who want to be guests and those that also have their own shows to host them.  So I want to first dip into why it's really important for hosts who have their own shows to also be a guest, because sometimes I feel like hosts are doing all this work, and then they're like, well, I don't have time to be a guest. So lay that out a little bit about that importance of why it is important to also be a guest when you have your own show. JULIE: I am often surprised at how frequently I talk to podcasters who tell me that, one, it never occurred to me to guest on other podcasts to grow my own audience, or two, that they have a lot of imposter syndrome around reaching out to other podcasters to be a guest on their show. I'd be curious to see what you find in talking to other podcasters, but those are two of the main things that I hear podcasters saying.  So I can definitely speak to both of those. We work with clients that have their own podcast and guests on other shows, and then we also have clients that do not have their own show. For the folks that have their own podcast, usually they come to work with us. And because they either don't have the time nor do they have the desire or the they feel like they're just not well equipped… MARY: Yeah. JULIE: …to pitch themselves to be a guest. It is fascinating, this peek behind the curtain into human psychology, [LAUGHTER] but in terms of why a host would want to guest on other podcasts, and I'm sure you talk to a lot of your clients about this, is it is a tremendous way to reach new audiences for your own podcast, which, again, if you're guesting, if you have a podcast because you have a business, can ultimately end up driving more referrals or relationships or revenue into your business.  If you have a passion project, and that's your podcast, it still helps you connect with new listeners, new potential listeners, potential guests for your show. There's just a multitude of reasons of why you would want to do it if you have a show. But those are really kind of the driving factors. MARY: I totally agree with that. Especially when you were saying how people have, like, maybe that imposter syndrome where they're like, I didn't know I could be a guest. I'm like, yes, you already have all your equipment. I mean, you might as well go and be a guest as well. And to showcase your own show, you can talk about your own podcast on other people's podcasts. And I feel like there's, yeah, that piece that's missing from host's mind, where they're like, oh, that is a way of promotion. And I never, ever thought about that. JULIE: Yeah, I mean, it's really because you're already doing your own podcast, which is an investment of time and or money to keep it going. So if you are committing to that marketing strategy, then this is a really great way to run alongside of it and really maximize what you're doing in the podcasting space. MARY: Okay, so let's say someone's decided, alright, I'm going to be a guest. But you know, it's nice to go out and have a conversation with someone like we're doing right now online. That's great. But also we're busy people. A lot of the people that you work with, and I work with too, they're impact driven leaders. You know, they're busy, they have their business, they have their messages to send out and all this stuff. So, what does success actually look like for them when they are guesting? What is that goal that they have in mind? JULIE: Yeah, I think it's very specific to each individual. That's how we always start a new relationship. Or even a discovery call with a client is what are you hoping to accomplish by guesting on podcasts? And so we have a client right now where she has a book coming out in May. She has her own podcast, but what she is trying to do is grow the awareness of her book. And so we've talked about what sort of metrics that looks like at the end of a certain period of time. And that would be her definition of success with podcast guesting.  We have another client who's had a show since 2019 and it's very, very niche. But what her success metrics are is the number of discovery calls that she is generating…  MARY: Mhmm. JULIE: …as a result of being a guest on podcasts. So it really varies. It is personal. Some people, I mean, we once had a podcaster who worked with us to get on other shows and it was truly a personal development exercise for him. Like he had no goals other than he just wanted to go meet people, talk on other people's shows. Granted, he was a very wealthy individual and not many of us have those resources to just do a personal development exercises.  But it truly kind of comes down to you asking yourself, what does success look like at the end of a certain time period? Is it a certain number of shows? Is it a certain number of increased downloads for my own podcast? Is it certain number of new leads? Is it revenue goals? So it could be any number of things. MARY: I really love that because people sometimes think, you know, when they do things like that, they're like, what's the return on investment?...  JULIE: Mhmm. MARY: …What are the numbers? What are these download numbers telling me? But I'm like, There's so much more intangible value to having a podcast, to being a guest on a podcast. Like you say, that personal development piece. I mean, that doesn't have to be the main goal, but I think that should be a lot of people's goals, especially when they have a podcast. Because you're just practicing how to say something maybe a little bit differently this time, and then you can hear it back and feel like, oh, I can slightly change the words this way or the meaning this way, and just get a clearer picture of what you're trying to say. When you get to practice as being a guest on other people's shows. JULIE: Absolutely. We have a client, and one of the first things she said to us after maybe her fourth guest appearance, and she does not have a podcast, but she said, you know what I'm loving about this process is I'm getting so much better at my messaging and hitting the points that I want to make sure I hit in each interview. So, like you said, I think it pushes you to get better at whatever it is that you're talking about. So. Absolutely. MARY: Yeah, it's that, it's the process of saying things again and again, and it's that piece of practice that I find a lot of people are like, well, yeah, but how do I practice? I don't want to just keep saying the same thing over and over again. I'm like, but that's why you go on shows, so that you get to try out a different flavour of something on a different show. JULIE: Yes, yes. And part of the fun of this is you get to speak to different audiences, so different segments of listeners, and so you can tweak what you're saying so that you're not saying exactly the same thing over and over again. MARY: Yeah, exactly. Okay. You know, there's a lot of things that you can Google on how to be a guest. Yet, like we were saying, each show is very different. Everyone sets up their workflow very, very differently. But like, the recommendation for quite a while there was like, everyone needs to have a one sheet. You need to pitch a show with an email, attach the one sheet. It's something, if you Google, you'll probably find it.  But is that actually something hosts are looking for? Because I know as a host myself, I get bombarded with guest requests, and most of them, I say 99% of them are done very poorly. And I just hit the delete button on that email. So what is actually working to get a host's attention? JULIE: I'm very curious to know what of the 1% that you say yes to, what is it? [LAUGHTER] MARY: Well, it's usually because they haven't said I, I, I, this, like this is an X… JULIE: Yes. MARY: …or so and so is an expert at this and they can talk about xyz. I'm like, that's great, but why would my listeners care? JULIE: Yes, yes, that is what. Uh, in fact I just shared this in our Team Slack channel because somebody pitched me. It was, you know, a cold pitch to have me book a call with someone and it was so eye focused. And as a host, when they're reading a pitch, they don't care about you, they care about their audience and themselves and how you are going to inform them, educate them, entertain them, whatever the case may be.  So going back to, what do you need to do when you're pitching a host, the first thing that we always suggest is to go to their website. If it's not readily available, do some googling, figure it out, look at the website, read about the host, learn about what they're doing, who are their listeners, do they have any services that they provide that maybe you're a complimentary service provider? So really familiarize yourself with the host. Listen to their episodes, get a sense of what their energy is. So whenever I go on a show, I always listen beforehand. And if the host is like a real fast talker, then I will try to up, I'm a west coast girl, I'm a little bit of a slower talker, [LAUGHTER] but I will try to amp up my speed so that our energies match. Similarly, if they're very slow and methodical, I will slow down so that we're in a similar energy pattern.  But backing up to that. So you're listening to the episode you're wanting to see. Hey, if I go on this show, is it a podcast that I would be proud to share that I was a guest on? That should always be your number one metric of would this be a good fit for me and am I a good fit for the host? And making sure that there is a reason for you to guest on the show that can benefit the host audience.  The one sheet, and for those of you that don't know what that is, it's basically a one pager, says who you are, what do you talk about? What other podcasts have you been on or whatever their media appearances have you been on? It's a nice to have. It's not a must have, so if you don't have one, you don't have to let that stop you from reaching out to hosts. So those are just a couple of things to think about. Definitely approach from the standpoint of service and how can I be of service to the host? MARY: And, you know, people are always busy. So then I start thinking about, well, how much time does this actually take? JULIE: Again, that kind of comes down to your goals. So if you have very aggressive goals of your marketing a book, or there's something tangible that you are hoping to have come from your podcast appearances, you may need to do more guesting over a shorter period of time. And you knowing that most hosts book about an hour of time for you to record the episode, we usually recommend about a half an hour of prep time beforehand. So you're looking at an hour and a half per guest appearance. So then you can think about how much time you have to budget for that. And then there's, of course, if you are pitching yourself to be a guest on the show versus if you're hiring it out. So, you need to take those things into consideration as well. MARY: Yeah, that's right. On the show, though, we talk a lot about, like, audio quality and things that support hosting a show. So like I said earlier, right? Like, as a host, you already have the equipment. It easily translates into being a guest. But beyond those basics, like you were saying, you know, it takes usually people book an hour of the time, but what else can podcasters do that they aren't doing right now in the industry enough to prepare for a show? So what are those prepare pieces that we need to do that you aren't seeing people talk about enough? JULIE: That is a really interesting question. So the approach that we take when we're working with clients is it's kind of a 3R. You're guesting on shows to grow your relationships, increase your referral partners, or drive revenue. Like, those are kind of the three pieces that really can be a great outcome from podcast guesting. So when you're thinking about what your strategy should be is, which of those tenants are most important to you? And so if you're looking to generate, say, more referrals from your podcast appearances, then you're looking at you're really spending more time on the person's website. You're understanding how your business might relate to their business. If you're looking for more downloads or more subscribers for your podcast, what are some really unique ways that you can position yourself when you're pitching and then guesting on the show and then also staying in touch with the host afterwards?  We're definitely seeing a trend towards being more relational rather than transactional. There were a lot of agencies a few years ago that were like, we're going to book you on four podcasts a month. And that's a lot, for a lot of people. And I think that it shifted the industry to being more transactional, which is guesting for the sake of guesting. Whereas by scaling back the number of podcast appearances that you have and actually making them more intentional to see what you can generate from that relationship, like, how can you two support each other? It really has a lot longer tail than just appearing on a certain number of podcasts per month. So that would definitely be something I would think about and recommend when you're exploring your guesting strategy. MARY: Yeah, And I think a lot of people forget about that after piece. You know, they're like, okay, how do I get on a show? I'm gonna get on a show, then I do the interview. Oh, I'm done. But you're not, right? Like, there is still the after piece. So what does that look like in terms of, like, aside from social media, because we're getting bombarded with, like, social media these days, and a lot of people are stepping back from that. So what are some other ways that we can promote those episodes that people really aren't talking about these days? JULIE: Yeah, so there is the obvious, which is social media, of course. However, there are blog posts. So, you know, you can take your interview and turn it into a blog post. That's a great way to show the podcaster that you've guested on there, show some love. By linking back to their website. You can add it to your own website. Perhaps you have an about section or press appearance page that you can add the episode to.  I'm a big fan of including it in your email, to your email list or your in your newsletter. And one of the coolest ways that I have seen people use their podcast guest episodes is in discovery calls. So especially if you have a business where it's very relationship driven, maybe you're a life coach or a money coach, that if you have an episode where you're talking about things, that it's really important for a potential client to hear this, learn about it, read about it, you can point them to your podcast episode where you're talking about that. So those are a few ways to just continue to promote the show, get it out there outside of just social media. MARY: Yeah, because it's part of that relational piece you were talking about too, right? It's not just a one and done. I'm on to the next one. But hey, you've actually said some very important points that shouldn't just go away in the Internet. It can be used in other forms, especially to, like, spread your messaging and things that you teach or really value. JULIE: Yeah. One of the ways that I love to share episodes when I've been a guest on a show is when I share, and mostly I'm. I'm active on LinkedIn, not really any other social media platforms, is I will call out who the podcast is for. So, for example, on this show, you know, I would, are you a podcaster? Like, here's a great show you might be interested in. Here's why.  So I talk more about the podcast itself and then, oh, by the way, here's my episode where we talked about podcast guesting. I don't really like to shine the light on myself. I like to shine it on other people. So that's a way that works for me to kind of showcase podcast appearances and highlight the show rather than myself, which I feel like is a bit more effective. MARY: Yeah. And I think it points back to that relationship piece too, because a lot of women, too, are very hard on themselves about promoting themselves, right? And I myself am included in that. So when you said, like, call out who the podcast is for and then sort of just say, okay, yeah, yeah, and here's my episode on it, so you can, you know, listen, I really resonate with that. That is doable for me. JULIE: Yes, right? MARY: That is something where I'm like, I'm happy to promote the other show because of XYZ vs I was on this episode. You will enjoy. Because I talk about this, that, and the other thing. JULIE: I kind of comes back to what you were saying about. What you don't like about podcast pitches is when people are saying, I, I, I. So when you're on social media and you see a post about, hey, are you a podcaster? So lead with a question, which if somebody is a podcaster, they just might be more likely to continue reading that post because you're asking a question and inviting them to with it. So you're kind of allowing people to opt in to the content. MARY: Yeah. And to start that conversation too, especially with that question off the top, right? Then you're creating that relationship versus. Oh, it's another task I have to do. JULIE: Just spewing at people.  MARY: Yeah. Oh, I was on a show. I have to talk about it. Right. Okay. JULIE: Yes, yes, yes. MARY: Okay. So we've talked a lot about, like, what to do, but I know there's also like, what not to do. What is one thing that you see everybody is still doing and you're like, this has got to stop. JULIE: I would say the big one is when you just send the same message to every podcaster, regardless of their show. I know the people listening to your show are not going to do that, but the whole like, spray and pray approach, this just does not work. So please don't do that. That's really key because then you're being authentic. You're showing the host that you've done your research, that you understand who their audience is. And then we touched on it before, is just using all of that “I” language. It is such a turn off. So I would really suggest kind of leading with who the audience is, what the host does, pulling out details from their website or from the podcast that you've listened to that you can speak to in the pitch that shows them you get them. MARY: Yeah. And what about, like, trends? What are some podcasting trends that people are like, should we be testing these trends out? JULIE: Yeah. So a big one that we have been seeing since the beginning of this year, there is a lot more pay to play. So that means you send a pitch to a host, they respond back. And this actually just happened yesterday to a team member of mine. So it's a show that we had previously booked a client on and it's a decent show. It's in like, the top half of a percent. And the host replied back and said, hey, your Susie Q client looks really great.we now charge $950 per… MARY: What? JULIE: …appearance to be on the show. So we are just seeing a lot more of that. And I think it's coming from. And this is another trend is that there is just a lot more competition to get on podcasts. So what I will say for podcasters and why you have a really big leg up is that you do have a podcast. And so, if you are open to having a podcast swap where you go on one person's show and then they also appear on your show, then you do have a higher likelihood of getting that interview.  We'll say that is something that if you're open to doing that it really can generate better results for you. So that's definitely one trend that we're seeing. I think that there are some coaches out there that are encouraging people to monetize their podcasts in that way. It's really tricky because it's not really on the up and up with FTC standards… MARY: Mhmm. JULIE: …and how they're supposed to be disclosure. If you're paying to be a guest, there's a whole article I could send you if you wanted to put it in the show notes…  MARY: Yes. JULIE: …That might be interesting for people to see. So the other thing that we are seeing that's trending is it used to be that if you were going on a podcast, you would come up with some sort of free resource that you would gift to people at the end of your interview and people would get a lot of email signups from that. I think that just because email marketing has been around for, gosh, what are we going on now? Like 20 years? Maybe longer…  MARY: Maybe longer. JULIE: …That those. We're in 2025 now. Yeah, time flies that those email signups are going down. So one of the trends that we are suggesting is just to be very clear about your call to action. So if it is you want to get more, more listeners for your podcast, make sure that you're seeding your podcast throughout the interview. You're talking about it throughout the interview, and then at the end you're reiterating, you know, go check out my podcast and share the name. It's great to share those links of the email resources when you're providing the links for the show notes, but we tend not to recommend that as like your number one call to action for people anymore. So those are a few of the things that we're seeing both on the guesting and kind of the ROI side of being a guest on podcasts. MARY: Is there like that again, the psychological piece of consumers? Is there that layer of friction or is it just because we're so bombarded with so many things…  JULIE: Yeah. MARY: …that we don't want to sign up for? Another thing. JULIE: Yeah, I think it's email fatigue. I know we all our inboxes are overflowing. There's so much that we have in there. So it has to be something super valuable if you're going to get somebody to click through. It cannot just be a one page PDF of something that they could easily Google or now ChatGPT to get the answer to. MARY: Yes. Exactly. JULIE: The one thing that we are seeing work pretty well is if you have a, like a video training series that you might actually charge for. Maybe it's a lower price point. Like, if you had something about, you know, starting your own podcast and maybe you charge $39 or $49 for it. If you turn that into a free offering for people to get at the end of the interview, we are seeing that those are working. MARY: Oh, interesting. Yeah. So I guess that comes down to, like, your. If it's really worth it and it's high value, they will go out of their way and do that. Yeah. JULIE: And there's the psychological piece of, ooh, I'm getting something that's worth $50 for free. Yes, I will sign up for that. MARY: Mmm. True, true. There's a lot to do with, like, money and the economy and revenue. Like, I was just thinking back to how you were saying,...  JULIE: Mhmm.  MARY: …you know, the guest is like, pay to play. And I actually saw that a lot in the. The earlier years of podcasting. People were doing that, and then they stopped because they were like, oh, yeah, there's rules and stuff. So it's interesting to hear that it's back. [LAUGHTER] JULIE: Yes, it is. And maybe it is, uh, you know, an economy situation where people are feeling anxious or maybe they are already starting to see impacts to their revenue, so they're trying to generate a new revenue source. Could be that too. MARY: Yeah, yeah. Because there are, like, a lot of people who, yes, they like hosting a podcast. Yes, they enjoy it, and it can be a passion project, but it still costs time and money, and they want to recoup some of that. And so this might be that. Yeah, economy at play. And they're like, how can I make more money or just make money, period? JULIE: Yeah. But what's interesting to me is the podcast that we are seeing this from primarily is the hosts have this podcast as a way to market their own business. So they do definitely have a business that is generating revenue anyway, so this is maybe just another additional revenue stream for them. MARY: Oh, I see. Yeah, and that's, I think, where you're mentioning, like, the business coaches, whoever those are, are probably. [LAUGHTER] It's like the new thing, right? The new business coach trend... JULIE: Yes. Yes.  MARY: …I can see that connection there. Okay, so we know that podcasting, the whole industry changes so much all the time. Like, we were just saying, these are things that are coming up. And. But as you know, things are changing so fast. But in this moment in time, as we're recording this, what are you excited about podcasting right now? JULIE: Yeah. So I still think it is the number one way, whether you have your own podcast or you decide to guest alongside having your own podcast, it is one of the best ways to network and grow your relationships and meet new people, which then leads to new opportunities. It is such a unique platform to be able to just go deep with one person for 30 minutes, 45 minutes, and really share your story.  So if you have a business, like, why did you start your business? What's your mission? What are your values? What sort of transformations are you helping your clients with? So there just are not many places outside of public speaking where you have someone's attention for that period of time. So I'm still really excited about the opportunity that podcasting and guest podcasting represents from that standpoint.  I also, from a getting on podcasts, or finding aligned podcasts for you, there are more tools than ever to make it really easy for you to find those, outside of Google. There are paid tools, there are free tools, but it's a growing space, and so it will save you more time when you are doing the research to try to find the show. So that's something else that's really cool about the research piece, because I know it can take hours and hours to find good fit shows. MARY: Okay. Podcasters are usually very budget conscious because, as I was saying, people are always looking for ways to make money from their show or even just, you know, recuperate that cost. So you're talking about these tools. What kind of tools? Which ones are free and which ones work? JULIE: Yeah, yeah. So we use a database, and it is called Rephonic. So they have a free trial. I think it's seven days. But it's a good way to kind of dip in there. You can search by keywords. They will have great profiles for each show as far as what their audience is, what types of guests do they have. You can see stats on estimated listeners. And so from a demographics and audience perspective, it's a really great way to just see, ooh, would this be a good fit for me? You know, as I mentioned, it's a free trial for a certain period of time, and then it moves into paid tiers. But if you're really serious about guesting, that would be a great paid tool to explore.  There are other databases like Listen Notes, where you can type in a show, you can see where the podcast ranks in terms of global popularity, and then over on the right hand side, it shows you shows that other people listen to. So that's another great place just to kind of dip your toe in the water for free and enter your own show in and see what comes up as far as aligned audiences. You know, ChatGPT, it's not great, but it's getting better. [LAUGHTER] And it kind of all comes down to the prompts. It still really likes to give you the most popular large podcasts in whatever industry you ask it about. But if you get very specific with your prompts, like, I'm looking for podcasts that are active and have a certain number of listeners. And, you know, for people who are writing a book, it will give you some decent suggestions. It might take a little bit of tweaking, but that's another good tool to find podcast ideas. MARY: Yeah, it's great, but you still have to have a human being on the other side of it. JULIE: Oh, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Like, you have to, you know, go in, double check, because sometimes it will tell you shows that aren't active anymore. It will give you shows that don't take guests. So you do need to do your research. Cross those T's, dot those I's, make sure that the podcasts that you are pitching yourself to actually do take guests. MARY: Yeah, exactly. Julie, it's been amazing to chat with you. I've got a lot of notes that I've taken down. So thank you so much for sharing your insights and your time with me today. [MUSIC IN] JULIE: Thank you so much, Mary. It was really fun talking to you. MARY: You know, in the intro, I talked about what success looks like for being a guest on other people's shows. And some of the things that Julie mentioned was very similar, actually, to what I call the intangible values of a podcast. It's something that I talked about in episode number 69. And it actually reminded me of a client of mine right now because. Because podcasts are worth so much more than just the download numbers or how much money you can make from it. And again, another spoiler alert. Not very much at all, actually.  So if you are tying your podcast to this monetization strategy, and advertising, and making money from your podcast, that goes into just looking at those download numbers a lot. But creating a podcast has so many more intangible values, and I love that one of her clients was saying that it's just a personal development piece. And you know what? It's great because I have another client who did that, too. She started a podcast because she was like, I just want to meet people, and I think this would be a cool place to do it. And, yes, it can be done with the podcast.  But from the industry side, too, as you heard, I. I was really blown away by shows adding a cost to a guest spot so you had to pay to play, which, like Julie said, has some challenges with those FTC rules. And we'll add that link to the show notes so you can make sure you can click on that and read up on it. That's the FTC in the United States. But of course, here in Canada, I am Canadian, we have our own version The Competition Act, which regulates advertising and marketing. And the Canadian Code of Advertising Standards was actually updated in 2023 to include influencer disclosure, which I believe when you are paying someone, this can look like a contract, right, for a promoted product or service because money is being exchanged. So there's that fine line here. In this digital age, things are being updated. There are codes and standards to follow. So we need that transparency if you ever decide to charge someone a fee or their appearance on your show.  So I'd be curious to actually see where this is headed and to see if it even is going to exist more in the coming years because of the economy and people trying to find more ways of generating revenue. Because podcasting is tied to a business usually. But I'd also be curious, just like for your own podcast, is this something that you even thought of doing? Is this something you were actually practicing? I'd love to know. And yet, though, you know, what doesn't change through this whole changing landscape of ours is that being a guest on someone else's podcast really is that human connection that we talked about. Yes, for you as being the guest, but also that connection for a listener. Podcast guesting is a great way outside of social media for you to talk about your messaging, your values and your podcast. So this way you get to connect to potential new listeners for your own show.  So, yeah, what have you seen in your guesting appearances? Have you been a guest before? And if not, what's stopping you from being a podcast guest? I'd love to hear about it. As always, leave a message on my website with a voice note with that send voicemail purple button. Or as usual, you can drop me an email as well at VisibleVoicePodcast@gmail.com.  On the next episode, we're going to talk strategies for interview podcasts and leaning more towards this guest theme for your own show when you are figuring out who will be a guest on your show, when you're being selective on who you want to showcase, this has a huge strategy behind it. So looking forward to chatting about that with you next time on the show.  [MUSIC ENDS] > MARY: Thank you so much for listening to the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice. If you enjoyed this episode, I'd love it if you share it with a podcasting friend. And to reveal more voicing and podcasting tips, click on over to VisibleVoicePodcast.com. Until next time. > [MUSIC ENDS]

Video has taken podcasting by storm, but how do you know if it's right for your show? As a podcaster, how are you interacting with and utilizing video? More and more, we’re hearing about creators tacking on this visual element, and platforms like YouTube and Spotify are eagerly showcasing all the success stories of podcasters giving their audience a fresh way to consume content. Sure, it’s relatively easy and inexpensive to get your hands on video recording equipment these days, and it’s straightforward to drop the final video into platforms like YouTube. But what about editing, and lighting, and additional preparations like your hair, outfit, and background? Video requires a lot of moving parts, and you still have to generate high-quality audio on top of all that.  In this episode, Mary breaks down the meteoric rise of video podcasts and encourages you to really ponder how adding video would affect your workflow and your budget. How will video get you closer to your podcasting goals, or is it a timesuck you just don't need?  Dig into the pros and cons of tackling this extra format: How easy is it really to “just” add a video component? How do you figure out if your audience even wants to watch your podcast? Just how helpful will AI be for editing and marketing? Links worth mentioning from the episode: Episode 89, “Your Podcasting Questions Answered” - https://www.organizedsound.ca/your-podcasting-questions-answered-and-a-year-end-break-episode-89/ Spotify research, “Spotify Unveils Uninterrupted Video Podcasts, Audience-Driven Payments, and the New Spotify for Creators Platform” - https://newsroom.spotify.com/2024-11-13/spotify-unveils-uninterrupted-video-podcasts-audience-driven-payments-and-the-new-spotify-for-creators-platform Sounds Profitable, “Audio and Video Podcast Consumers in 2024, Part One” - https://soundsprofitable.com/article/audio-and-video-podcast/ Connect with Mary! Leave a voice note with your feedback at https://www.speakpipe.com/VisibleVoice or email visiblevoicepodcast@gmail.com Get the full transcript of the episode at http://www.visiblevoicepodcast.com Read up on more secrets with the Visible Voice Insights Newsletter https://www.organizedsound.ca/newsletter To learn more or work with Mary, check out https://www.organizedsound.ca Link up on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/marychan-organizedsound/ Engage on Instagram @OrganizedSoundProductions https://www.instagram.com/organizedsoundproductions Show Credits: Podcast audio design, engineering, and edited by Mary Chan of Organized Sound Productions Show notes written by Shannon Kirk of Right Words Studio Post-production support by Kristalee Forre of Forre You VA Podcast cover art by Emily Johnston of Artio Design Co. Transcript with Audio Description: [MUSIC IN - GHOSTHOOD FEATURING SARA AZRIEL “LET’S GO” BEGINS] ​​MARY: Video. It's one of the biggest things that people talk about these days for podcasting, because it feels like video is all the rage in the digital world. For podcasting you see clips of those interviews on social media. You hear of big names creating a studio and filming their podcast. You also see people talking with microphones. Like that visual aspect of a podcast is people with microphones. So the lines of audio first podcasting versus video podcasts are kind of blurring. But are they really? What's driving this need for video? And is it worth it for you as a podcaster to create a video for your podcast? I touched on this a little bit in episode 89, that's the episode on Your Podcasting Questions Answered as my last episode of 2024. But I wanted to bring this topic back up for an entire episode of its own because, like I said, there's so much talk about video these days that I wanted to address it. But like anything in tech, things change quickly. So know that this is recorded in March of 2025, and I may have a new episode in the future for more video talk, because I'm sure this isn't the end of it, and I'm sure that there's a lot more things I want to add, but there's only so much that can go into this short little solo episode. So as of today, I figure, let's talk video podcasts as of right now, and are they right for you and how you can potentially integrate video into your podcasting workflow if you choose to record visuals as well.  This is episode number 92 of the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice.  > Hey, welcome to the show. Thanks for listening. Yeah, we're going to talk about video.  [INTRO MUSIC ENDS] The appeal of video for podcasting is growing. It's making a huge shift. And you know what? It actually started a while ago, too. Spotify started to offer video podcasts in 2020. So that's five years ago now. Toward the end of last year, Spotify reported that more than 50% of their creators are actively publishing videos monthly on Spotify. But video for podcasting isn't new. There's been a version of that called vidcasts, or videocasts that have been around since the early 2000’s. So why the push now? Why video podcasts today?  And it all has to do with tech, right? With the rise of TikTok, YouTube focusing on podcasting, which they started in about 2023, so two years ago now. And of course, the integration of easily recording video, it's so accessible for everyone now. Cameras on laptops, your devices, your phones, right? Easily bought camera gear that is, you know, accessible. You can go to a store and just pick up some stuff and it's a pretty good price point for the pretty good quality. Video's point of entry has gotten easier and easier over the years. So that brings us to today. It is easy to record your podcast online with platforms like Riverside, Squadcast, Zencastr, you know, even straight into your phone, and then easily take that video and drop it into YouTube, video podcast done, right? Check. But in fact, many of those platforms come with AI as well, so they can cut your interviews into bite sized little clips.  And some of my clients seeing all this on those video platforms like Riverside, Squadcast, Zencastr, et cetera, they're asking me about video for their podcasts. Should I be recording video too? They used it mainly just to facilitate the conversation with that video portion, but they never published the video, but now they're asking about doing that. So with all these new tools, it sounds like a no brainer. I mean it's already there. You can easily just record it with a hit another button, right? But is it really that easy? Or maybe the question is, is video really that effective for your podcast?  [MUSIC IN] So I want to make my first argument here that making a video podcast is not as easy as it sounds. It's not like, okay, we're hitting record anyway, might as well just record video for it. Bang, you're done. Video podcast isn't easy, especially in terms of creating one that is engaging. Because today in our world of video zoom conferences, all that stuff, are we really excited to see talking heads talk back and forth, does that make for a good video?  So sure, anyone can record video, but to have video of a certain quality that also has good audio, because if video doesn't have good audio, people are going to turn that off. So a good video with good audio doesn't come easily. There's a lot of setup and different workflow flows to make sure that not only are you recording your audio, but you are also going to be recording your video now, it's an additional step or multiple steps as, uh, you'll hear. You have to think about camera. Are you going to use more than what that camera is already on your laptop? Do you have to get a separate webcam? The quality of that webcam, the tech aspects of it all. Better lighting, especially when we're getting into daylight savings and it's darker later in the day and you might be recording episodes later in the day as well. Lighting is great. You need that.  What's your background gonna look like? Some people are still recording their podcasts in their closet. Do they want to have their closet in the background? And then talking about closets, what are you gonna wear? You gotta wear something from like, waist up at least, right in your video. So you gotta put on some decent clothes and if you're inclined to also put on some makeup and even wash your hair, make sure it's a hair washing night the day before you do your podcast, right? That's a lot of extra effort.  You might not have thought about all that, but the little details and nuances that it takes, not just your time, but that mental capacity to get ready for a video. I mean, you don't have to wash your hair, but I bet most of you will think twice about how you look. If you know there's going to be a video portion to any recording, right? We're gonna put in that extra effort to look a certain way because it's just human nature in us to want to look presentable on a stage that is going to be recorded.  So although there are many tools to facilitate the video recording process, it makes things easier these days. You still have to think about what's going to happen after you record that video. What happens next? So we're talking about how you're going to edit it. Will you be creating a  thumbnail? YouTube likes to see thumbnails. Do you have to go the YouTube route? What are their rules? Back to the editing. What sort of edits will you make? Will it just be the two heads side by side, or will you have multiple camera angles that you can make those smooth edits and jump from one person to the next?  There's also the publishing side, after the edits. Many podcast hosting companies don't host the video. So you'll have to take an additional step or two to upload that video to YouTube or Spotify or wherever you want to host your video podcast versions. And then we get to those video clips too, because video clips are part of that promotion, that marketing of your episode. Are you using those types of video for your podcast? Since you recorded the interview, the episode, you might as well use that clip, right? We're talking about reusing content, so get some video clips out on social media. Another thing to add to the list. But again, we'll get into more of those video clips later. But just to say first that although recording video might sound easy, there's a lot of steps you need to consider before hitting that additional record button. [MUSIC ENDS] I think the next thing we need to also consider is your listener. Is your listener going to be the same as a podcast viewer for the video? Sounds Profitable, it's an organization that I follow. They had some great research on the comparisons of audio versus video podcast consumption. They were saying that and music to my ears. Of course, the majority of podcast consumers listen mainly to audio versus video. However, in that same report, they did say the two audiences are not that drastically different. But I still beg to differ because sure, I can see how an audio listener could also be a podcast viewer. I've done that. Sometimes I'll see a podcast on YouTube, but then I'll go back to my podcast player app and listen to it there.  And I do know of people who prefer YouTube versus listening to a podcast. They like that the video is also passive. They can look at it if they want to. It's in the background. But one of the main differences I think that a lot of researchers might be missing here is those habits. Why one listener would choose one format over the other. And it's not just a audio first, video only, video passive. Some people like to look at faces sort of a thing, but actually their habits and why they choose one over the other. You know, think about it yourself. How and when do you use YouTube versus using your podcast listening app? Or just why do you use YouTube? You know, for me, I use YouTube for two very different things. One, I might be looking for very specific information. I'll scan what I need and I'll watch for that one small thing.  An example could be like cooking, right? I want to see technique or doing home renovations. I want to see the technique for that as well. There's that whole visual aspect so that those videos are great. I can look for exactly what I want in that video, that specific part, and then close that video and get out. The number two reason for me to look at YouTube is entertainment. I don't actually want to turn on the TV or Disney Plus or Netflix or whatever streaming service you have and be bombarded by all the options. The nice thing about YouTube is that it's mind numbing. You can just go there. And their algorithm's pretty good for choosing what you want to watch next. So it's very passive. And I think that's why YouTube works so well.  On the other hand, listening to a podcast on YouTube prevents me from multitasking, which is what I love. And I am an audio first person. And I feel like that's why audio consumption is higher on an audio only platform because you have that convenience of listening to podcasts without the video. And I don't have YouTube Premium. So if I want to listen to a podcast without the video, I still have to keep my screen on even though like, I put it in my pocket or something, the video is still playing in the background. But the beautiful thing about that convenience of audio only podcasts is that you can go for a walk, work in the garden, be at the gym, walk your dog, commuting. It's all about multitasking while listening to a podcast.  And with video podcasts it's hard, because I'm either starting and stopping because I missed something either visually or the audio isn't as great when there is a video only podcast and I have to rewind, or maybe I'm doing dishes and my hands are wet and I can't rewind anyway because the touchscreen doesn't work with wet hands. So I can't even rewind the darn thing. It's got a level of annoyance for long term dedicated listening, or at least for me. Is it for you? I'd love to know.  But okay, back to listeners. Audio podcast listeners. Each show is going to be very, very different. So for your show you need to gauge and research what's your audience's preferred platform and habits? Are they even asking for a YouTube feed? Do they use YouTube a lot for this long term listening? Not like that mind numbing stuff that I was talking to you about and how I use YouTube? Would they prefer to read something that's digestible like a blog on your website? There's other ways to consume that podcast content that this whole repurposing thing is good for. And video might not be a great repurpose for you for your podcast, but we can talk more about that later.  Essentially, what is the end goal of the video in relation to the goal of your podcast? Meaning if your goal of the podcast is to reach more listeners, sure, maybe video is the way to go. You have that great reach now with YouTube's search algorithm. But if your goal is to be a thought leader in your industry or to nurture your customers and clients, YouTube might not be those listeners preferred platform. It's about figuring out your listeners habits, how they listen, where they listen, and how can you create a show for their needs. Back to that foundational piece of starting your own podcast.  [MUSIC IN] Another reason why you're seeing more and more big names in the industry use video is because YouTube and Spotify want you to. They are pushing for this platform and they have big pull. So they are changing the way their algorithm works and how they are curating the space to include video first. And when they've created a space where it feels like now, you could be missing out if you don't do video too. That can hurt sometimes, right? You're like, ooh, but am I missing something? I want to get into this. Should I get into it? But let's get real. Just because a large tech company says video is the way to go, it doesn't mean you have to follow suit.  There are other ways to market and grow your show without having to resort to high tech, multi-camera, 1080p video files and oh my gosh, okay, 1080p video files. I was just thinking too that those files are huge in comparison to an audio only file. I'm talking about storage here. When you are doing video, you'll also start noticing a large uptake in your usage of data storage. Audio files don't take up a lot of space, but when you include that video portion and depending on how it's encoded, meaning like 1080p, 720p, all that sort of stuff, the quality of your video, how long the episode is, the longer the episode, the bigger file it is, you can start getting into very, very large files.  And podcasting media hosting platforms are not going to start hosting these very large files. That will cost them a lot of money. So that means you have that extra step of uploading the video as well to YouTube and Spotify, et cetera. Not a big problem with that extra step. But with that storage component, if you are sharing that file out and you have a team member who works on your podcast, it really can add up for you on the storage side, your Google Drive, your Dropbox, or wherever you store your files in the cloud, videos take up a lot of storage real estate. And I don't think people really realize the kind of snowball effect of that. Unless you have like unlimited data storage somewhere. Just remember, videos will take up a lot more storage space.  [MUSIC ENDS] The last thing I'll say, and not to poo poo, on the whole video thing, because I can see the draw. I understand that visuals help. It's also a very inclusive piece for people who need those visual aids. And people do like to see faces. I do get that. But what I'm saying is you don't also have to produce a video podcast along with your audio podcast. Sure, you can record the video during the podcast recording and then use that to create the little teaser clips or the promotional clips to promote the episode and market your show. That's awesome. But that takes time too, making those clips. But again, I know there's also time shortened with the use of AI. So are those AI tools worth it as well? You might have to pay, pay something else. You got to pay out to use some of these tools. So are those AI clips any better than human selected clips too?  But again, if it's human selected, you're paying in time to make that happen as well. But in the short time that I've been doing a little bit of video testing for some of my clients to create those clips and market their show with it, the AI clips aren't as good as the human chosen clips. Sometimes the AI ones are choosing these weird clips. That wasn't actually the main thought of the podcast. They may have mentioned the word a few times, but it wasn't the main theme to really draw out what a listener is really honing in on.  And at the same time, even though you let the AI tools do the work, you still have to go in, adjust the captions for spelling. You know, everyone's names is spelled differently. You got that to look through too and make sure that those clips are still on brand to your podcast. So there needs to be a human element to review the work of AI. But again, I can see the draw of using AI too. There is the benefits of time saving or if you don't have the funds to hire a team, they can essentially be a small team member for your podcast. But yet you still have to do the research on how effective video is and using AI and video is for your podcast. Do video clips convert those viewers into podcast listeners? Is the time you put into it actually worth it? And I think that's a conversation for another day because I'm going to end this episode here.  So let me know. Are you using video for your podcasts? How do you watch video podcasts if you even do like? I'm not a video podcast watcher, so let me know if you are. And what's your draw behind that? Why do you like watching video podcasts? Drop me a voice note on my website VisibleVoicePodcast.com or email is always a great way too to get a hold of me, VisibleVoicePodcastmail.com I'd love to hear your thoughts on this whole video podcast. Are you a watcher? Are you not? Sort of debate. [MUSIC IN] Next time on the podcast, we’re talking visibility. how being a guest on someone else’s podcast can make a huge impact, especially for women podcasters. Julie Fry is joining me on the show. She’s the CEO of Your Expert Guest and you’ll learn about what’s currently working in the industry when you are a guest on a podcast and how integral it is if you host your own show to also be a guest on other people’s shows. So join Julie and me on the next episode as we talk more about what’s working in the industry today about podcast guesting. And what are some of those things that everybody’s still doing, but we can move on from. So let’s improve your guest experience with Julie Fry and me on the next episode. I’ll talk to you then! [MUSIC IN] > MARY: Thank you so much for listening to the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice. If you enjoyed this episode, I'd love it if you share it with a podcasting friend. And to reveal more voicing and podcasting tips, click on over to VisibleVoicePodcast.com. Until next time. > [MUSIC ENDS]

How do you know if social media is really worth it? Social media inundates almost every aspect of our lives these days, from communicating with friends to deciding what to listen to, watch, or buy—all the way down the line to actually listening to, watching, and buying it. So, of course, many podcast creators worry that leaving social media behind is an enormous marketing faux pas. But what if it isn’t? Amanda Laird is the marketing pro behind Slow and Steady Studio. She wields more than two decades of PR and management experience to help small businesses and non-profits do just enough marketing to reach their goals in ways that make sense for them. In this episode, Amanda shares plenty of tips for figuring out whether that social media slog is paying off. You’ll discover the link between podcasting and social media, as well as the first steps to determining exactly how social media marketing serves your podcast—and how your podcast serves you—so you can make strategic decisions that drive success rather than drive you crazy. Hear Amanda’s insights on how essential social media really is to podcast marketing: What benefits are social media providing for your show? Where does podcasting fit in your marketing sandwich? What is your podcast’s consistent call to action? Should you consider moving your podcast to Substack? Links worth mentioning from the episode: Amelia Hruby’s podcast episode, “Should I host my podcast on Substack?”: https://www.softersounds.studio/softercast/should-i-host-my-podcast-on-substack Episode 87, “Find Podcast Success While Doing Less”: https://www.organizedsound.ca/find-podcast-success-while-doing-less-episode-87/ The Anxious Generation: How the Great Rewiring of Childhood Is Causing an Epidemic of Mental Illnesss by Johnathan Haidt - https://bookshop.org/p/books/the-anxious-generation-how-the-great-rewiring-of-childhood-is-causing-an-epidemic-of-mental-illness-jonathan-haidt/20144236?ean=9780593655030&next=t&next=t Engage with Amanda: Get some podcast clarity for your marketing with Amanda: https://www.slowandsteady.studio/ Connect with Mary! Leave a voice note with your feedback at https://www.speakpipe.com/VisibleVoice or email visiblevoicepodcast@gmail.com Get the full transcript of the episode at http://www.visiblevoicepodcast.com Read up on more secrets with the Visible Voice Insights Newsletter https://www.organizedsound.ca/newsletter To learn more or work with Mary, check out https://www.organizedsound.ca Link up on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/marychan-organizedsound/ Engage on Instagram @OrganizedSoundProductions https://www.instagram.com/organizedsoundproductions Show Credits: Podcast audio design, engineering, and edited by Mary Chan of Organized Sound Productions Show notes written by Shannon Kirk of Right Words Studio Post-production support by Kristalee Forre of Forre You VA Podcast cover art by Emily Johnston of Artio Design Co. Transcript with Audio Description: [MUSIC IN - GHOSTHOOD FEATURING SARA AZRIEL “LET’S GO” BEGINS] MARY: There's no shortage of distraction these days. We are digitally connected, and there's so much we can learn or be entertained by, especially from the world of social media. And today it's even more heightened because of all the research into how social media is playing a negative role in our mental health, and especially with kids growing up in this digital, like, hyper digital age. You know, recently, last year, there was Jonathan Haidt's wildly popular book called The Anxious Generation, how it connects social media to the epidemic of teen mental illness.  Yet, as podcasters, we use social media without thinking much about it sometimes. We use it to promote our show. And if you have a business or organization that's tied to the podcast, that you need to talk about your message too, and it's all done on our screens, and it feels as if social media is the number one way to market the show, or sometimes even, like, the only way to market your show. So as a podcaster, we might think without social media, your message might sink without it. However, there really are alternatives. We marketed way before social media even existed. And so I've always thought, why can't we still market today like we did back in the day before social media existed?  So on today's episode, we're talking about marketing without social media with Amanda Laird. Amanda is the Founder of Slow and Steady Studio and a marketing communications strategist. She has more than 20 years of experience in communications and PR and management, and now helps solopreneurs, small businesses, and nonprofit organizations do what she calls “just enough marketing to reach their goals their way”.  And I love the idea of just enough marketing because I worked with her on one of her Clarity Sessions about two years ago. You know, my side of the story, which I tell briefly on the episode, is basically realizing how social media actually plays a role in my business and podcast, or actually the lack of a role social media actually plays and what I can be doing instead of social media. But also knowing it might play a little part in what I do. So I am still on it. So it's about talking about how to best use my time and stop that doom scrolling.  Amanda and I also get into Substack. I really wanted to highlight this with her because it's the new shiny object for podcasters and the Internet. So Substack is heavily using podcasting and video on their platform. So if you're wondering about Substack, listen through to the whole episode and how that can or cannot integrate with your podcast. So, yeah, if you're curious or just wondering if you should be giving up on social media or even figuring out if you want to do less on these social platforms. Today's episode is for you.  This is episode number 91 with Amanda Laird on the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice.  > MARY: Amanda thank you so much for coming on the show and rescheduling with me due to my sick brain fog. You know how it is. [INTRO MUSIC ENDS] AMANDA: Thank you for having me, Mary. I will always find the time to chat with you. MARY: Oh, thank you. I know, like, we were, I was thinking back before this, I was like, oh, when did we first, like, meet online? And it was like, when I first started my podcast production business, was it freelance? I was like, I don't know what I'm doing. And I don't remember how we were connected, but we were connected. And I was like, oh, sparks are flying. AMANDA: That was many, many years ago, too. MARY: Yeah, that was like, 2018, I believe. AMANDA: I think it was. MARY: Anyway, things have shifted in more ways than one between, like, what we do and social media these days. And that's what we're going to talk about. So I always say podcasting is not social media because sometimes people are like, well, isn't it social media? So I just want you to give the lay of the land, first of all, and help us define, what is social media? AMANDA: Oh, is this not the question of our times Mary? Okay, so I went to Wikipedia. Wikipedia defines social media as, interactive technologies that facilitate the creation, sharing, and aggregation of content among virtual communities and networks. So in simple terms, that's your Facebook, your Twitter, your X, your Blue Sky threads, Instagram. These platforms that have become, like, the backbone of our communications personally and professionally. Where we are logging on and posting, there's text, videos. Oh, I can't believe I forgot TikTok on that list. MARY: Oh, yeah. AMANDA: Videos, images, whatever content we're posting on these platforms that's then distributed to our friends, followers, whatever the platform calls it. MARY: So then would podcasting be under that category? AMANDA: I don't think so. Okay. I'm taking a pause.  MARY: Yeah. [LAUGHTER] AMANDA: I mean, okay, in some ways, I guess you could argue that perhaps it's social media, but at the same time, I don't think it is. Because podcasting is distributed to a lot of different channels, right?Like, when I upload my podcast to my podcast host, then it's going out to Apple podcasts. It's going to, you know, all the places where people listen to podcasts. And I think one of the defining differences, too, with social media, and I'm putting, like, my Old PR school hat on when I say this like also with social media or what the promise of social media was way back at the turn of the century was a two way conversation. MARY: Yeah, I think that too… AMANDA: Right? MARY: ...That's what I was thinking. AMANDA: Yeah. And so yes, I do think that podcasts do facilitate a two way conversation, but that conversation isn't happening on the podcast, right? Like we put the podcast out into the ether and then that two way conversation might actually happen on social media that the podcast instigates, but it's not happening like on the podcast…  MARY: Yeah. AMANDA: …if that makes sense. MARY: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so then, now that we can sort of have like, a good foundation of what that is. Like marketing existed before social media. You know, we were marketing snake oil back in the day, right? So like, how can we market today without social media? What foundations should we be looking at first? What should we be considering? AMANDA: These are great questions and definitely some of the most topical questions with my clients and in communities that I'm a part of, running a mostly online business. First, before I dive into some of the practical things, I just really cannot say enough that if you want to market your business without social media, or put it another way, if you don't want to use social media to market your business, then that is 100% possible. I really think, and I'm thinking about what I just said a couple minutes ago about how social media has become such a critical part of our professional and personal communications, but as social media has risen in popularity, we have all kind of forgotten that yeah, there is other ways to do this online and offline as well.  So if you are feeling like you're getting that little intuitive hit that you'd like to do less social media marketing or you would like to leave entirely for relying on social media, it's 100% possible. So that said, whenever I'm chatting with somebody about marketing with social media, without social media, or really any tactic for that matter, I think the first place to start is to get really, really clear about what role social media marketing is currently playing in your business. So when I'm talking about marketing communications in my framework, which I like to call the Just Enough Framework, we have layers of different marketing objectives that we want our marketing to achieve for us, right? We and this very similar to a classic marketing funnel. So this will likely feel familiar to anybody who's familiar with the funnel. MARY: The funnel, the funnel. [LAUGHTER] AMANDA: I mean, we could do a whole other episode on the funnel, right? MARY: You'll have to come back for that. [LAUGHTER] AMANDA: So we are never ever just marketing for the sake of marketing. Like marketing is this great big vague umbrella term. But when we think about, okay, what are we actually trying to do when we're marketing our business? Number one, we're trying to attract new clients and customers, build an audience, build awareness of our brand. Then once people know who we are, we want them to connect with us in some way, right? This is where your brand story comes into play. This is where content marketing or even just your website comes into play so people can understand your business, understand your service offerings, your products, your point of view, what makes you unique, differentiates you from your competitors. How do I work with you? All of those good things.  Some, you know, common term is like, this is the know, like, and trust type layer of your marketing. And then once people know who we are, once they have decided that we can solve their problem or meet their needs, right? Then it links in with our sales process. So we have marketing tactics that are designed to sell our products and services.  So when you're evaluating your social media, I like to go through all of the ways that we're using social media and kind of map them to those objectives, right? Like, are we using social media to find new clients? Are we just using it as a way to share our point of view or to talk about our approach or what makes us unique? And are we using some of those social selling tools that are available on these platforms? Or is there a call to action that's like a buy now kind of call to action in your social media content?  Now, I did a workshop about this recently and as I was talking about this, I could just hear that David Beckham meme from the Beckham's Netflix documentary where he was like, be honest, be honest. [LAUGHTER] Because what I see a lot is we think social media is doing one or more of those things that I just outlined, but maybe it's not. Maybe it's not actually moving the needle in our business. And so this is why it's so important to start at ah, this point. Because number one, if it is contributing to building awareness, connecting and converting clients, then you need to plan how you are going to fill those gaps. And if you take a look at your social media and you audit your social media and you realize, oh, wait a second, it's not really doing any of these things or it's not doing what I thought it was, then you want to maybe take another step back and look at the bigger picture and think, okay, well, how actually are my clients finding me?...  MARY: Yeah, exactly  AMANDA: …How am I marketing? Because what I have this. It's. I mean, I'm kind of laughing because it seems so simple, but I've had countless conversations with folks who are like, oh, well, social media doesn't do anything for my business, but I don't know what else to do. And then when I start to pull at those threads, oh, it turns out that actually they are doing a lot of marketing. Often it has to do with word of mouth, referrals, relationships, networking. But we have just come to equate marketing with social media. And even beyond that, I feel like we have come to equate it with Instagram in particular, especially for online businesses. And people are actually doing a lot of marketing outside of social media and then they don't even realize it because for some reason they think it doesn't count. MARY: Yeah, because they're like, oh, if you have a business or you have an organization or you want to market something, you have to be on social media. You have to have an Instagram account or you have to be on LinkedIn. And if you don't have that, you're not an established legitimate business. And so like, I think we get that fear of, oh, well, we, we want to look professional. So we, I guess we have to be in all the places, you know? So when you're talking about tactics, I think a lot of people are like, tactic, social media, check.  AMANDA: Mhmm, Mhmm. MARY: So is that the approach for tactics? Like what, what is this? AMANDA: Well, you know, one thing I will also say too is like, I have a lot of empathy and you know, I'm a small business owner too, right? So I have been in this place myself. I have done all of these things before. But what I, I talk a lot about, like social media also feels like we have a lot of control over it in a way that maybe some other marketing tactics feel like we have to relinquish a little bit of control. Like if I'm relying on referrals from my past clients or my network, well, doesn't that just mean that I have to wait for Mary to recommend me to her clients… MARY: Right. AMANDA: …and there's nothing I can do? Oftentimes, especially with solo service provider, especially women entrepreneurs, although I don't think it's expensive, exclusive to women. We are like freaking out about our business in some way and committing random acts of marketing… MARY: Random acts of marketing, yes. [LAUGHTER] AMANDA: …Which is just like the totally unstrategic, like posts that you just throw up on social, right? Or maybe you just throw it up there on social where you're like, my books are open. I've got two spots available. And now we can cross marketing off of our to do list check, right? We get that dopamine hit the likes. If we're lucky, people see it… MARY: Yes. AMANDA: …And then the likes and the shares and the comments start rolling in. And now we feel good, right? MARY: Right, right. AMANDA: Which is part of the reason why giving up social media maybe feels so scary, right? MARY: Yeah. I mean, I remember I booked a session with you. We worked together, I think, like, two years ago now, and you had asked me that same question, and I was like, well, I think I'm on social media, but I don't really like it, but I'm on there. And actually I was looking back, I was like, oh, actually I get, like, a lot of my work through referrals, or actually, Google right now is working for me. So then you were like, then why are you on social media? I was like, oh, yeah, right. Why am I? [LAUGHTER] AMANDA: It's true, because, half of the reason why I even started my business was because I was so tired of, like, just seeing social media at the top of every listicle for how to market your small business, right? MARY: No, it doesn't have to be that way. AMANDA: Exactly. And like, I don't want to sound too much like a conspiracy theorist here, but, like, think about it. Who is benefiting from our belief that we have to be on social media? It's not my business. My business isn't making money from that. But even if we're not investing dollars into ads on platforms like Facebook or Instagram or TikTok, if we're not doing any advertising, we're still paying with our time and our attention and our data… MARY: Information AMANDA: …Exactly. And when you're a small business owner, there's the time that you spend actually doing your social media marketing, and then there's the time that you spend fretting about doing your social media marketing, right? [LAUGHTER] So how much time and energy are we even like? It's. It's exponential how much we're paying for these platforms. MARY: So let's switch then to podcasting itself is also a form of marketing. So then I feel like there's this catch 22 of, well I also have to market the podcast, which is my marketing vehicle, so then… AMANDA: Mhmm. MARY: …what the heck should I be doing? [LAUGHTER] AMANDA: Yeah, that's such a great point. And this is something that I see lots of folks bumping up against, right? And I would say, yes, podcasting, but any type of content marketing, whether you're making videos or you're making YouTube videos, or you're writing blogs, or you've got freebies, or any type of content marketing, needs to have a distribution strategy. So it's that planning and that thinking through the tactics has to happen twice. Like, we need to understand, okay, if I'm going to start a podcast or I'm hosting a podcast, or I'm producing a podcast as part of my marketing strategy, where does that fit into my marketing sandwich, as I like to call it? MARY: Oh, I love your sandwich analogy. Makes me hungry all the time too. Do explain. AMANDA: Well, yeah, I mean, this is just my alternative to the funnel, right? Instead of thinking of it like a funnel, I think of it like a sandwich. Because we can put different layers. So that attraction, connection, conversion layers, and how much we put into each layer really depends on the resources that we have available to us. What are our goals, what is our energy like for marketing? You know, if you're running a small business, sometimes you run into a problem where your marketing was actually successful, successful, and now you're booked and busy and now you don't have time to market, right. So maybe you need to pull back a little bit on how much you're marketing, right. So that's why I like the sandwich, because it can change. It evolves quarter to quarter, year to year, however you kind of plan what the seasons in your business are.  So thinking about your podcast, where in your sandwich does the podcast fit? Is this how you are trying to actually go out there and find new clients? Or once your clients have found you through other channels, through that visibility layer, through that attraction layer, visibility tactics or attraction tactics. Now that I know who you are and your business sounds interesting and maybe this is somebody who I could learn from, maybe this is somebody who could help solve my problem, then I'm going to tune into the podcast and it's more of an it's more about connection, right? So you have to really understand what the big picture strategy of the podcast is first, right? MARY: Yes, totally. AMANDA: Number one. And so if you know, you're a solo podcaster and you're sharing your IP or sharing your point of view on your podcast, then chances are that's probably more just in the connection piece right? MARY: Yes, the relationship building podcast. AMANDA: Exactly. But maybe your podcast has guests, and so you have a strategy around who you're going to invite to talk on your podcast, because then they're going to share it with their community and it's going to share it with their clients and their networks, and then that will bring people into your ecosystem. So that's step one. And then once you understand the role that your podcast is going to play in your marketing and how it's going to serve your business. Okay, now we need to kind of go through and make your podcast its own little sandwich, right? MARY: Another sandwich. [LAUGHTER] AMANDA: Yes, exactly. It's a sandwich in the sandwich. And you need to think through those same things. Like, okay, well, how. How are people gonna find out about this podcast? MARY: Yeah, I think people jump to that always first. AMANDA: 100%. Like, I have talked to a lot of people because I don't currently host a podcast, but I have in the past, right? So, people often ask me questions about podcasting. Although podcasting in 2018 was definitely different than podcasting in 2025. But all that to say, you know, people think, especially when people are like, well, I don't want to market on social media, so I'm going to start a podcast. And it's like, okay, great idea. So how are people going to find out about the podcast? You need to have that distribution strategy.  So what are some of the ways that people can find out about your podcast outside of social media? Number one, having an SEO strategy for your podcast, right? I that's the right fit, maybe making sure that you know all the places in your podcast descriptions and your episode titles that those things are optimized for what your potential clients might be searching for, right? Making sure that your website is also aligned. Like you had said that Google's and search traffic is bringing you a lot of clients these days. So making sure, like, if that's the right fit for your business, right? Making sure that people know that you have a podcast when they come to your website. Like, that seems so simple, but sometimes it is hidden, right? MARY: Yeah, it's hard to find. AMANDA: So putting it front and center, right? Being a guest on other people's podcasts, right? People who like podcasts listen to podcasts. So if you want people to listen to your podcast, then, you know, you could try being a guest. I mentioned earlier having a strategy around guests, a guesting strategy, and then working your network, working your referrals. Like, are there folks that you could do ad swaps with? Are there folks that you could do feature swaps with? There's so many options for low cost, like newsletter classified ads these days. And this is something that I've had a lot of success with in my business for building my audience.  And so some well placed ads that are aligned with your exact target audience is a way to kind of get the word out with your podcast. But this also goes back to really being clear on the role that your podcast plays in your business. And so if I find out about your business and your podcast is the place where I'm going to connect and I'm going to build that relationship with you as a potential service provider or as a customer, then you need to make sure that all roads lead to the podcast, right? MARY: All roads do, hopefully. Yep. AMANDA: And then once I get to the podcast, then what happens next? Because I love podcasting. I think it can be very effective for a serve, uh, for a business as a marketing channel. But you also don't want it to be like an escalator to nowhere. Once I listen to your podcast, now what happens? What do you want me to do? And so making sure that on your podcast that you have really clear next steps and a really clear call to action, telling people what to do now. Do you want people to sign up to your newsletter so that you can use email marketing to sell to them? Do you have, like, a strategic freebie that you use, like, download the template that you can, you know, fill out as you listen to this episode? That's like an old Amy Porterfield play from, like, way back in the day that I still think is very helpful, right? And you know somebody who I think is very good at this is my friend Amelia Hruby, who coincidentally hosts a podcast called Off The Grid, and it is all about marketing without social media… MARY: She's great. I was on an online conference with her, too. She's great. AMANDA: …Amazing. Amazing. Yeah, she's great. But what she's also really good at is having that consistent call to action, right. So as soon as you tune into her podcast, she's suggesting that you download her toolkit. Anytime she's a guest on a podcast, the call to action is download the toolkit, right. And then it puts you onto an email list so she can stay in touch with you, right? That's not to say that that's the strategy and the template that we should all be following, but my point is, is having that, like, clear next steps. Once they've listened to this podcast, what do you want people to do next? MARY: Yeah, and that leads me actually to. And I know you were saying this isn't like the thing that everybody should. Be doing, but we are talking newsletter, email list. And the big thing right now is Substack. People are thinking, okay, if I move my newsletter to Substack and they do podcasting, it's like an all in one thing, and I can just easily do it all in one place and have it done and have that communication with listeners on there. So what are your feelings about Substack for a streamlined approach for podcasting and newsletter? AMANDA: Mhmmm. Mhmm. Mhmm. Well, I will caveat this by saying that I have a lot of opinions on a platform that I do not use myself, [LAUGHTER] at least not as a publisher. But I mean, you're right, like Substack does have the functionality that you can publish an email newsletter and host a podcast at the same time, right? And I think I'm correct when I say that also it's free. MARY: Yes, I looked it up. It is free. AMANDA: Mhmm. It is free. So very compelling. Yeah, it is very compelling. Value proposition from Substack, right? And so, you know, Substack has really been hailed in the last couple of years as kind of this alternative to social media. And we're going to get on Substack and then we're going to start making, you know, six-figures a year based on our content. And in my experience and with the folks that I work with, that, that is not actually what happens. In fact, you know, more and more these days, Substack itself is starting to look a lot like an all purpose social media as well, right? MARY: Yes. I was just thinking about that because you. We were talking about what is social media, and then we're like, okay, comments and stuff. So they have that in the platform where you can chat and have like, a forum and comments. AMANDA: Exactly. And you know, maybe that's something that is appealing, right? But I mean, I'm no fun, because it's always going to come back down to like, well, what are the objectives?... [LAUGHTER] MARY: Yeah. AMANDA: …What are you trying to do, right?... MARY: Yes. Yes. AMANDA: …And I'm not going to let you just jump into the shiny new thing until we have a really clear understanding of the business case, right?...  MARY: Yeah. AMANDA: …And how this is actually going to drive things forward. And what do you need? What types of functionality do you need, right? And like I listen to podcasts on the Substack app. I do actually, usually I listen to them on the Substack app because I'm too lazy to like set up the RSS feed and Castbox, right? MARY: Yeah. Because it's another form of like layer of friction that you got to do. So like you use the app. AMANDA: Yeah, exactly. Which I mean, I. That's what Substack likes, right. Because once again, just because we're not paying with our dollars on these types of apps, like they wanna. It's in Substack's best interest for us to spend more time on the app, right? And which, when you also start to unpack, like, all the ways that it has started to act like a social media form with notes, with, they've introduced videos, they've introduced, I don't know if that this is something that's, like, widely available on the platform or if it's just with certain creators or certain partnerships that they've been doing, like, live feeds and, like, live streams and things like that on Substack.  So Substack wants you on their platform and they want you to stay there for a long time. And so now they are implementing features for you to do that. Now, all of that to say, right? Like, yeah, maybe Substack is a good place for you to publish your podcast and a newsletter, and it's streamlined, and it's all in one. But I would also really just invite you to interrogate, like, what you want out of that too, because from my understanding, like, Substacks analytics is shit. MARY: Yeah. From what I understand, too, yeah. AMANDA: Yeah. And you know, I have clients who have had a really hard time trying to figure out, okay, like, who's actually, like, reading my newsletter, clicking my newsletter, and I have no idea what the podcast stats are like, right. Also, think about, okay, going back to what role does your podcast play in your business, right? Where I have seen Substack work is when the thing, the product, the offer, whether it's paid or free, is whatever is happening on Substack. Like, I'm going to create a newsletter, I'm going to host the podcast there, we're going to have comments, we're going to do notes, we're going to do whatever. And everything happens here on Substack. And you're not now trying to pull somebody away from Substack to, like, buy a service.  MARY: Yeah.  AMANDA: You know what I mean? MARY: Yeah. AMANDA: And this is where I think things start to get tricky. And I. I kid you not that. I have worked with multiple service providers who started their Substack, bought into the promise of Substack, that you can publish here and make money from your content. And as a service provider who's creating content to market my business, I mean, yummy. I want that. I'm working so hard, so if I could get, you know, a couple hundred people to pay me $5 a month, like, that sounds amazing, right? MARY: That's a great piece of income right there. AMANDA: Exactly. I would love that. However, I'm not a content creator. That's not my business model. I'm a service provider, right? MARY: Aha. AMANDA: And so once you start to then be like, okay, well, when do people buy the Substack? And then if they're paying members of my substack, how do I sell to them? How do I now use email marketing? Because we also conflate email marketing with newsletters. And like, newsletters is like, the content marketing, it's like the information update date. It's the know, like and trust piece or it's like the product, right? Like if you're publishing on Substack, whereas email marketing is a conversion driver. It's driving sales. It's the email that has the like, buy now button, right?  MARY: Mhmm. AMANDA: It's the 27 emails I get from Old Navy with my super cash codes in it, right?...  MARY: Yes. [LAUGHTER] AMANDA: …Where it's driving me to make a purchase, right? So you have to have a really clear understanding of, okay, if you're especially if you’re a service provider, how is this going to fit into my strategy and into my sales strategy and into my business model, right? So I would caution, caution folks who are feeling or hearing the siren call of Substack, right, to really think deeply about the strategy and to try not to get caught up in Substack’s marketing, right? Because, you know, they're going to promise you the world. And Substack is. I mean, maybe has Substack reached a tipping point? Maybe? You know, maybe it's gotten to a point where, you know, we can't all get rich on Substack anymore potentially. But unless you're really willing to put the work into Substack, it's, it's not going to do what it says on the tin. And if you're a service provider or you're using this as a way to promote other revenue streams or other lines of business, you'll probably just end up frustrated. So just keep your ESP, whatever email service provider you're keeping, you don't have to jump ship. MARY: Yeah. The other thing too, I was looking into Substack just because I have two clients in the past month who were like, should I go on to Substack? So I, you know, did a little bit of research and tried to figure out, okay, how does this work for your podcast specifically? And the one thing that I couldn't find on their website is, okay, if I'm done with Substack, can I redirect and have a 301 redirect for my feed? And they have not given any option for that. So that tells me that you don't own your podcast after this. Substack owns that feed,...  AMANDA: Ooo. MARY: …and if you want to move off of it, you'd have to build the RSS feed all over again because it tells you how to import one, but it doesn't tell you how to export one. AMANDA: Very interesting. MARY: So that's usually my red flag of I don't think people should move their podcast there yet. AMANDA: Yeah. Yeah. You know, Amelia, I mentioned before, has an episode called Should I Publish My Podcast On Substack? So I'll send you that link so you can include that in the show notes. MARY: Yeah, and I listen to Amelia's podcast, too, so I haven't listened to that episode, but I can recommend her podcast, so I'm gonna go listen to that episode too. So thanks for sharing that one. AMANDA: Great. MARY: Okay. I mean, we could talk about this forever. We can gab and gab and gab, but we got things to do, so thank you so much for your time, Amanda. To close off, though, I always like to ask my guests, what are you excited about podcasting right now? AMANDA: Okay. So I listen to a lot of TV recap podcasts, actually. MARY: Ooo yeah! AMANDA: And when we're recording this, we're just in the middle of February, and, like, a lot of my favourite TV shows are coming back, after long hiatuses. And so I'm currently, I'm watching Severance and YellowJackets and White Lotus is coming back. The Last of Us is coming out, a little bit later in the spring. And so I'm actually really excited to have, like, different TV podcasts, in my feed again, because it's been a bit of a fallow time for us TV lovers over the last year or so. And I really love HBO, always does, like, a companion podcast or often does a companion podcast with the shows where they're actually talking to the creators of the show and kind of giving some behind the scenes. And especially with shows like the Last of Us, like, I just, I love that so much. So I'm listening, I love to watch TV, but even more, I love to listen to TV podcasts. [LAUGHTER] MARY: I love that because, you know, our world is so serious, and so, like, TV is giving us that window into, like, dreamland, and not have to focus on marketing and tactics, and all that stuff. AMANDA: Although, I mean, I don't know about you, but the zombie apocalypse, the mushroom zombie apocalypse…  MARY: Oh, gosh,  AMANDA: …does feel nigh. MARY: It's true. That is true. Although I'm excited for the Last of Us just because this upcoming season, they filmed it on the island here where I live in Vancouver Island in Nanaimo and Vancouver, where I grew up. So I was like, oh, how are they gonna transform this into the mushroom world. AMANDA: I can't wait. MARY: I can't wait to. Anyway, thank you so much Amanda, for your time and your expertise and your brilliance. And maybe you should come back and we'll do funnel and sandwiches and stuff anytime. MARY: Next time. AMANDA: Anytime. [MUSIC IN] MARY: Oh, yeah. How are you feeling now about social media after that discussion? Are you still in the camp of staying or are you planning on leaving cold turkey? It's okay also to just dip your toes back in every now and then, because as Amanda says, it really depends. What are your goals? It's the same for when I'm talking about, you know, launching a podcast or when people are trying to figure out what they're doing with their show. It is that same question, what are your goals?  I always ask my clients that. What is the reason for your podcast? What do you want to do with it? Is it that relationship building? Is it the thought leadership in your industry? Is it to grow your network? A podcast can be very specific for each of these things. Before you know what you can do with your show and how to do it, you need clarity on what your podcast is for.  So I love that Amanda reiterated this point for the marketing side as well. And Amanda mentioned Amelia's podcast episode about Substack. We highly recommend it. Listen to it. It is linked in the show. Notes for you. I listened to it. It's a quick episode. So she really asked some strong questions that I've asked some of my own clients as well in our strategy sessions. So if you want a quick rundown of what you should start thinking about about this whole Substack, should I be on it? Should I not, give that episode a listen? Like I said, it's a short solo. So if you want to get more specific onto the idea of Substack, and if you want to host your podcast there, Amelia's episode will be a good follow up to this one.  And like I was mentioning on the show, that clarity session with Amanda was amazing. It was a one off session where I needed my questions answered instead of, you know, googling it all, trying to figure out, okay, so now that I've googled everything, what will work best for me, it's having that second set of eyes and ears. You know, it's kind of like you're in that fishbowl and you're swimming around in circles all the time, but she's outside of that fishbowl and she really gives you some great clarity. So, highly recommend to if you're looking for some clarity in your marketing, go talk to Amanda. I will leave her website linked in the show notes of course. She'll give you a great roadmap for what will work for you and your show versus, like I said, that generic Google search of ideas that are out there and, uh, of course, what we see on social media too, right? So, slowandsteady.studio, I'll put that link in the show notes.  And finally, as Amanda was talking about newsletters and that clear call to action on podcasts, I wanted to bring up mine. How, of course I'm going to end my show with a clear call to action. And since we were talking about newsletters, I would love for you to sign up for mine. You can learn more about podcasting and your voice speaking with spirit. Because your voice is needed now more than ever. I know I've said it before, but, yeah, even more so now because of all the restrictions and silencing that's happening in the world that we've been seeing on social media. So I've said it in the past, but I feel like this moment in time, I mean it more than ever, that we do need your voice now more than ever.  So another way to keep in touch with me is through my newsletter, which I don't send out too often. So like she said, I'm not doing like, a buy now type of email marketing. It is a newsletter that I send out most of the time when a new episode is out. So keep in touch with me over there. I'll give you some extra tips as well in the newsletter about podcasting and your voice. So head on over to VisibleVoicePodcast.com/newsletter to sign up.  And as always, I'd love to hear from you about your thoughts on social media and podcasting, or even your thoughts about Substack. Are you on it? Are you not? Are you contemplating it? I'd love to know. You can leave me a voice note on my website, VisibleVoicePodcast.com look for the purple send voicemail button where you can email me or heck yeah, in direct message. Me on social media too. Yes, I'm there. Instagram or LinkedIn. I would love for you to just share your voice, right? Share your thoughts on this whole marketing without social media or I need social media, I'm too addicted to it. It doesn't matter. I would just love to hear your thoughts on this episode.  So I'm gonna have a social media post on it. You'll see it. Hopefully the algorithm will let you see it. And when you do, leave a comment there as well. Totally cool. One way or another.  On the next episode, we are going to be talking about video, oh yeah, it's that rise of video podcast and how video is so integrated into this podcasting space now. And this whole marketing piece too. People are using video on social media, right? So we are going to talk about pros and cons of integrating video and why you want or not want to add video into your podcasting workflow. So I'll catch you then. [MUSIC ENDS]  > MARY: Thank you so much for listening to the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice. If you enjoyed this episode, I'd love it if you share it with a podcasting friend. And to reveal more voicing and podcasting tips, click on over to VisibleVoicePodcast.com. Until next time. > [MUSIC ENDS]