Between Us: A Psychotherapy Podcast

Jessica Benjamin joins host John Totten for our season finale. In a wide-ranging conversation [outlined below], the renowned psychoanalyst and theorist reflects on her radical upbringing, the development of recognition theory, and the feminist lens through which she examines our persistent social dilemmas. Why does more civilization seem to generate more problems? Dr. Benjamin’s answer diverges from Freud’s, and her concept of repair exposes how often conformity is entangled with domination. From mundane conventions like parenting roles to the horrors of war and genocide, her concepts illuminate pathways of transformation through multiplicity, challenging the belief that “only one can live.” She proposes that feminism offers a way forward in the clinic and society: a chance to move beyond rigid binaries into “The Third”- a space of mutual recognition, but only if we are first willing to confront the ways we’ve been getting it wrong. ——————————— 1. Biography and Early Curiosities - 13:21 2. Formation of Recognition Theory- 20:25 3. Feminism and Family Roles- 27:30 4. Oedipus and Gender Binaries- 30:54 5. Reversal and Bourgeois Feminism- 37:42 6. Response to Critiques-42:44 7. Clinical Vignettes of Recognition- 48:35 8. Crossing the Bridge of Difference-54:25 9. The Third, Breakdown, and Repair- 56:05 10. Survivalism and Conflict Resolution- 66:30 11. Infant Studies and Acknowledgement- 74:14 12. Destruction and Play-79:30 13. Escalation and Unconscious Guilt- 86:54 14. Capitalism and Supremacy- 91:00 16. Hope- 99:30 ———————————— Produced by John Totten and Mason Neely Music by Mason Neely Research Assistant: Rose Bergdoll Website: www.betweenuspodcast.com Contact: betweenuspodcast@gmail.com Instagram: www.instagram.com/betweenuspod Facebook: www.facebook.com/betweenuspodcast YouTube: www.youtube.com/channel/UC4pPUTf_wRjNxHcCsFJoSSQ

Lara Sheehi was doing her job as a professor of clinical psychology when her criticism of Israel catapulted her into uninvited infamy. Bad faith accusations of antisemitism, reliant on obfuscating political dissent with bigotry led to her investigation while reports from news outlets led to her being disinvited from speaking engagements, stalked, and protested. Despite a letter of support from Jewish colleagues that included giants in the field of psychoanalysis, the controversy split the field in two- those who knew her compassionate work on behalf of the oppressed and those who scapegoated her as a danger to psychoanalytic innocence. It is this myth of purity that shapes Lara’s theory and resistance to the veil of mutuality and dialogue, which she contends too often obstructs the very nature of our unequal material realities. Sheehi challenges us to be vigilant towards misrecognition, the not-so-unconscious ways in which we commit to logics of oppression, especially those of us who identify as healers. ----------- Produced by John Totten and Mason Neely Music by Mason Neely Research Assistant: Rose Bergdoll Website: www.betweenuspodcast.com Contact: betweenuspodcast@gmail.com Instagram: www.instagram.com/betweenuspod Facebook: www.facebook.com/betweenuspodcast YouTube: www.youtube.com/channel/UC4pPUTf_wRjNxHcCsFJoSSQ

Sue Grand joins us for a conversation about hatred and totalitarianism. A psychoanalyst who has spent decades studying trauma and the ways evil reproduces across history, Grand is interested in how introspection might protect us and others from our own perpetrator fragments. She challenges the assumption that traumatized people victimize others—most do not. The regeneration of harm, she argues, arises from a complex interplay between psychological defenses and social structures such as gender binaries and racialization. But how do everyday people get caught up in the fevered swell of fascist times? Can psychotherapy be antifascist? Grand examines the erotic lure of fascism, while John and Mason explore Deleuze and Guattari’s provocative claim that, on some level, we all desire it. || Produced by John Totten and Mason Neely || Music by Mason Neely || Research Assistant: Rose Bergdoll || Website: www.betweenuspodcast.com || Contact: betweenuspodcast@gmail.com || Instagram: www.instagram.com/betweenuspod || Facebook: www.facebook.com/betweenuspodcast || YouTube: www.youtube.com/channel/UC4pPUTf_wRjNxHcCsFJoSSQ

In a deep dive, Tony Bass, a renowned psychoanalyst and president of the Stephen Mitchell Relational Studies Center, shares his insights on the art of therapy. He emphasizes the importance of mutual influence in the therapeutic relationship, likening it to an improvisational jazz session where both client and therapist contribute uniquely. The conversation highlights how personal experiences shape clinical practice and the intricate dance of emotions within therapy. Bass explores the courage needed to navigate unconscious dynamics and the paradox of connection in our technology-driven world.

Roy Barsness, a Professor and author known for his work in psychodynamic supervision, shares insights from his new book. He discusses how viewing patients as muses can transform therapeutic supervision. The conversation explores the complexities of relational dynamics and the importance of emotional acknowledgment in therapy. Barsness emphasizes the therapist’s personal journey and the ethical considerations of disclosure, advocating for transparency and collaborative exploration in the therapeutic process.

Jay Bakker joins us live from the International Forum for Psychoanalytic Education. As the child of the famous televangelists Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker, Jay has always been surrounded by persistent narratives—even among therapists of every stripe. The pressures of life in the limelight from an early age led him to cope through addiction, especially after his parents faced a very public downfall. But when the Oscar-winning film The Eyes of Tammy Faye was released, Jay sought treatment once again—this time with a psychoanalytic psychotherapist. In a vulnerable conversation, in front of an audience of therapists, Jay shares how this treatment helped him better understand what his unconscious was doing to him, and how psychoanalysis has shaped his efforts to build a more hospitable theology as he strives to disagree well with those across ideologies. Produced by John Totten and Mason Neely Music by Mason Neely Engineering by Ian Knippel Research Assistant: Rose Bergdoll Website: www.betweenuspodcast.com Contact: betweenuspodcast@gmail.com Instagram: www.instagram.com/betweenuspod Facebook: www.facebook.com/betweenuspodcast YouTube: www.youtube.com/channel/UC4pPUTf_wRjNxHcCsFJoSSQ

Lynne Layton, a Harvard-affiliated psychologist and psychoanalytic theorist, dives deep into the interplay of culture and ideology. She discusses her influential concept of the normative unconscious and how it reveals the societal forces impacting our minds, beyond just family dynamics. Layton addresses the backlash against 'wokeism' in the psychoanalytic community and connects neoliberalism to racism and social character. She also offers insights on having constructive conversations amid political divides, emphasizing shared experiences and understanding.

Karim Dajani, a psychoanalyst with roots in a Palestinian refugee family, dives deep into the intersections of social consciousness and psychoanalysis. He critiques how the field often neglects the social factors shaping our unconscious, reflecting on the exclusion of theorists like Trigant Burrow. Dajani passionately advocates for an understanding of identity rooted in cultural experiences, especially in the context of global conflicts. His fresh perspective urges a reckoning within psychoanalysis, spotlighting the necessity for inclusivity and social awareness.

Eyal Rozmarin, a psychoanalyst known for his exploration of belonging and subjectivity, dives deep into the complexities of identity. He discusses how societal constructs shape personal experiences and the emotional toll of these dynamics. Rozmarin challenges the idea of a fixed Self, suggesting that true liberation comes from recognizing the transient nature of identity. He also touches on the interplay of personal and collective struggles, emphasizing the importance of overcoming societal expectations to achieve a deeper understanding of self and community.

In the premiere of season six, psychoanalyst Eyal Rozmarin joins our host John Totten to discuss the constitutive power of belonging. A native of Israel-Palestine, and an objector to his compulsory military service, Eyal has a unique take on the respective costs of belonging and its counterpart abandonment. From Oedipus to the superego, Freud is subverted here; Rozmarin posits it is not that society protects us from our own nature, but that belonging turns us into killers. Is it possible that our collectives are antithetical to the goals of psychotherapy and what is the implication for the treatment room? This and more is discussed in the first of a two-part conversation. Produced by John Totten and Mason Neely Music by Mason Neely Research Assistant: Rose Bergdoll Website: www.betweenuspodcast.com Contact: betweenuspodcast@gmail.com Instagram: www.instagram.com/betweenuspod Facebook: www.facebook.com/betweenuspodcast YouTube: www.youtube.com/channel/UC4pPUTf_wRjNxHcCsFJoSSQ