Outthinkers

Terence Mauri is the founder of the management think thank Hack Future Lab, a bestselling author and a visiting Professor at IE Business School. Terence challenges leaders to pivot from ‘wait and see’ to ‘explore and disrupt’ in a world of complexity and uncertainty. Terence says: ’Building a bold and resilient future never happens by accident. To sustain vitality for the long-term, we must have an eye on the future while searching every day for the upside of disruption.’ His recent publications include co-authoring Thinkers50’s Certain Uncertainty: Leading with Agility and Resilience in an Unpredictable World’ and Building Resilient Organizations: Best practices, tools and insights to thrive in ever-changing contexts.In this episode, he shares:What “unlearning” is and why its so important How excess bureaucracy and complexity are significant barriers for senior leaders to unlearn Why we must prioritize context over control, embrace autonomy and accountability, and foster cultures of curiosity rather than conformity Why companies should avoid the trap of overestimating the risk of trying something new while underestimating the risk of standing still_________________________________________________________________________________________Episode Timeline:00:00—Highlight from today's episode00:55—Introducing Terence + The topic of today’s episode2:24—If you really know me, you know that...3:33—What is your definition of strategy?4:33—Can you talk to us about your concept of unlearning?6:59—What is the barrier that keeps organizations from implementing a culture of unlearning?9:24—Could you explain your concept of "concept over control"?11:18—What does a career ladder look like nowadays?12:25—Could you talk to us about the risk of standing still?14:14—Why do you believe we should we be planning from the future?16:26—How does one do the third piece of activating the urgency within your organization?18:03—How do you suggest companies move to a more decentralized org structure without the cognitive overload?20:20—What do you think is something people should know as a closing thought?21:01—How can people follow you and connect with you to continue learning from you?__________________________________________________________________________________________Additional Resources: Personal page: https://www.terencemauri.com/Books: https://www.terencemauri.com/#bestsellersLinkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/terencemauriTwitter: https://twitter.com/terencemauriThank you to our guests, thank you to our executive producer, Karina Reyes, our editor, Zach Ness, and the rest of the team. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. I'm your host, Kaihan Krippendorff. Thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinkernetworks.com/podcast

Ralph Birchmeieir’s expertise is in accounting, finance, valuation, and strategy. He is a former partner at a global investment firm where he headed financial research into banks, insurers, and real estate concerns. He and his team routinely met with company managements, emerging fintechs, insurtechs and IT professionals. He also sat on two investment committees, constructing global equity portfolios in small cap and all cap strategies. Ralph retired at the end of 2018, taking time out to teach, volunteer, and to become more involved in private company investments. He was an advisor to a digital life distributor, an advisor for a fintech accelerator, and consulted in the AI health care space. He was also a member of Tech Coast Angels, one of the largest angel groups, where he participated in the due diligence process. His first investment book, Reasons To Pass, was published in early 2023. In previous roles he worked as a CPA at a tier one accounting firm, for a quantitative investment manager, obtained his Chartered Financial Analyst (CFA) designation and earned his MBA with honors from Columbia Business School. In this episode, he shares:The top four reasons investors might pass on investing in your company – that are particularly important for strategists to be thinking about. Why governance in an organization is so indicative of future success—and what specifically investors will be looking at when assessing your CEO or board or compensation or decision-making. He lays out some key strategic measures that strategists and management don’t typically think about – like asset liability mismatch – and why this can be a game-changer for a company What factors really matter when thinking about valuation of your own company _________________________________________________________________________________________Episode Timeline:00:00—Highlight from today's episode01:15—Introducing Ralph + The topic of today’s episode3:42—If you really know me, you know that...4:11—What is your definition of strategy?5:18—Could you tell us a little bit about why you wrote Reasons to Pass?7:30—What should management be thinking about when it comes to corporate governance?11:55—Can you talk to us about as a strategist, what should I be thinking about with regard to asset liability mismatch?14:46—Can you talk to us about valuation, and making sure the messaging is appropriate for the market?17:39—Let's get into financial leverage...20:51—Let's recap the reasons to pass addressed in this episode...21:28—How can people follow you and connect with you to continue learning from you?__________________________________________________________________________________________Additional Resources: Newest Book: http://cup.columbia.edu/book/reasons-to-pass/9780231556804Thank you to our guests, thank you to our executive producer, Karina Reyes, our editor, Zach Ness, and the rest of the team. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. I'm your host, Kaihan Krippendorff. Thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinkernetworks.com/podcast

Rob Cross has studied the underlying network dynamics of effective organizations and the collaborative practices of high performers for more than 20 years. Through research and writing, speaking and consulting, and courses and tools, Rob’s network insights are transforming the way people lead, work and live in a hyper-connected world.He is the Edward A. Madden Professor of Global Leadership, Babson College and co-founder and current research director of the Connected Commons, a consortium of over 100 leading organizations accelerating network research and practice.In his latest book, The Microstress Effect, co-authored with Karen Dillon, Rob delves into findings that show that our interactions with other people – even those we care most about – trigger an avalanche of small stresses that snowball to the point where it affects our personal well-being. This is a growing issue as companies move toward smaller teams and greater collaboration across teams. In this episode, he shares:What microstresses are and how they can impact the workplace and collaboration within teams The surprising effects that microstresses have on our health, mental state, and organizations’ effectiveness Why managers accidentally create microstresses by encouraging more collaboration … and what we can do about it Some specific tips we can all follow to reduce the negative effects of microstresses _________________________________________________________________________________________Episode Timeline:00:00—Highlight from today's episode00:49—Introducing Rob + The topic of today’s episode2:30—If you really know me, you know that...3:21—What is your definition of strategy?3:47—Can you start by defining a microstress to us?5:54—Why do microstresses have such a lasting impact?7:55—Could you break down the different types of microstresses outlined in your book?11:16—What can an individual do to reduce the impact of microstresses?13:12—What do high-performing happy people do differently?14:51—Should we as leaders be looking to create moments of connection in org structure?18:45—Does mission or purpose allow us to coordinate behavior without requiring as much interaction between people?20:27—What do people get wrong about understanding microstresses?21:49—How can people follow you and connect with you to continue learning from you?__________________________________________________________________________________________Additional Resources: Personal page: https://www.robcross.org/Newest Book: https://www.robcross.org/resources/books/the-microstress-effect/Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/crossrobTwitter: https://twitter.com/RobCrossNetworkThank you to our guests, thank you to our executive producer, Karina Reyes, our editor, Zach Ness, and the rest of the team. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. I'm your host, Kaihan Krippendorff. Thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinkernetworks.com/podcast

Dr. Elizabeth J. Altman is an associate professor of management at the Manning School of Business, University of Massachusetts Lowell, and guest editor of the MIT Sloan Management Review Future of the Workforce project. Altman served as a visiting assistant professor at the United States Military Academy at West Point in Fall 2018 and has served as a visiting scholar at the Harvard Business School. Altman teaches strategy, organizational theory, and human resources management in undergraduate, MBA, and doctoral programs. Her research focuses on strategy, innovation, platform businesses and ecosystems, leadership in the digital economy, organizational identity, and organizational change.It used to be, your workforce were your employees. But today, 30-40% of a company’s workforce is made up by contractors! Add to this the increasing amount of work being done by suppliers and partners and you see that what composes your workforce is much different than what it once was. This raises lots of questions. Elizabeth has spent 19 years in industry. She was a vice president at Motorola in executive and leadership roles in industrial design, product development engineering, manufacturing, marketing, and strategy. Awarded a U.S. Dept. of Commerce and Japanese government fellowship, Altman worked as an engineer for Sony in Japan. She lectures and consults worldwide for multi-national clients on strategy and platform businesses and has served on corporate and non-profit boards. Her work has been published in the Harvard Business Review (HBR), MIT Sloan Management Review, Journal of Management Studies, Marketing Letters, and other internationally recognized management journals and books. Her HBR article with Prof. Andrei Hagiu was selected for inclusion in an edition of the “HBR 10 Must Reads 2019” book and included in “HBR’s 10 Must Reads on Business Model Innovation.” She also co-authored the book, The Innovator’s Guide to Growth: Putting Disruptive Innovation to Work, (Harvard Business Press), as well as the recent Workforce Ecosystems (2023).In this episode, she shares:The new role of institutions in society, and how workforce employee and stakeholder sentiment play into that The actual definition of a workforce, and how it has even expanded into including questions like: What is a workforce? Who is in the workforce? and how do you think about it from an ecosystem perspective to incorporate technologies as an integral part of them? How to consider goals and incentives for employees given this broader perspective? How do you build culture when your workforce is composed by a large percentage of contractors and suppliers? How AI and machine learning technology can now be considered an official part of the workforce in many cases _________________________________________________________________________________________Episode Timeline:00:00—Highlight from today's episode01:07—Introducing Elizabeth + The topic of today’s episode2:55—If you really know me, you know that...4:19—What is your definition of strategy?6:44—Why do you think the focus in companies has shifted to more than just financial performance in this era?8:34—Tell us about your journey into researching workforce ecosystems.11:27—Breaking down the types of employees in a typical organization12:17—A new defThank you to our guests, thank you to our executive producer, Karina Reyes, our editor, Zach Ness, and the rest of the team. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. I'm your host, Kaihan Krippendorff. Thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinkernetworks.com/podcast

Thales Teixeira the co-founder of digital disruption consultancy Decoupling (Decoupling.co), and previously the Lumry Family Associate Professor at Harvard Business School, where he taught for 10 years. There he has taught MBA, doctoral and executive-level courses in Marketing Models, Digital Marketing and E-commerce. His two primary domains of research constitute Digital Disruption and The Economics of Attention. He is the author of dozens of articles published in trade press outlets such as The Harvard Business Review, The McKinsey Quarterly, Think with Google, and in academic journals such as Marketing Science, JMR, JM, and JAR. His research and opinions have been routinely featured in The NY Times, The Financial Times, among others. In his most recent book, Unlocking the Customer Value Chain: How Decoupling Drives Consumer Disruption, he dives into his concept of decoupling—the idea that what drives disruption is not technology or new innovations, but the ability to identify and create solutions in the links along the customer value chain. We dig into this concept in its implications in this episode, including: In this episode, he shares:His definition of the customer value chain —and where it really starts and ends, contrary to what we traditionally have thought How disruption is not as much about competitors as it is about understanding the customers’ point of view How startups often create disruption by learning how to target weaknesses in the customer value chain neglected by incumbent organizations And how incumbent organizations can stay competitive by beating others to disrupting their own value chain—even those not heavily invested in technology _________________________________________________________________________________________Episode Timeline:00:00—Highlight from today's episode00:52—Introducing Thales + The topic of today’s episode2:41—If you really know me, you know that...2:29—What is your definition of strategy?6:55—Could you share your definition of disruption with us?8:09—Could you explain how your work led you to one of your most central principles of decoupling?12:03—What exactly constitutes the customer value chain, and how is it different than the customer journey?14:24—Could you share an example of a company that has decoupled and disrupted a customer value chain?16:27—Could we dive into how Best Buy effectively decoupled their service offering?18:05—How did Airbnb target a narrow type of customer in a value chain to start their business?22:30—What should an incumbent do in these decoupling instances, and what do they get wrong?26:23—How can people follow you and connect with you to continue learning from you?24:23—How can people follow you and connect with you to continue learning from you?__________________________________________________________________________________________Additional Resources: Decoupling United Company Page: https://www.decoupling.co/aboutNewest Book: Thank you to our guests, thank you to our executive producer, Karina Reyes, our editor, Zach Ness, and the rest of the team. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. I'm your host, Kaihan Krippendorff. Thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinkernetworks.com/podcast

Marc Beckman is the Co-Founder and CEO of DMA United, the award-winning advertising agency positioned at the center of style and design. His philosophy concentrates on building equity at the intersection of content and commerce. In fact, Marc has designed and implemented creative campaigns for countless individuals and corporations within DMA United’s polycultural platform, including venerable brands such as NBA, Pepsi, Sony, Warner Bros. Entertainment, Nelson Mandela, Gucci, and MoMA. Marc embraces new technology and trends to augment marketing platforms and communications tactics. To date, he has leveraged blockchain technology to launch platforms for over sixty brands; and has created seven marketplaces in Web3 for clients. Mr. Beckman’s cross-sector blockchain approach includes programs in luxury, fashion, government, technology, academics, philanthropy, and beauty. He is the author of The Comprehensive Guide: NFTs, Digital Artwork, Blockchain Technology. The book has received many accolades, including receiving best-seller status, and inclusion on JP Morgan’s Reading List.Marc is New York University’s Metaverse Senior Fellow, an Adjunct Professor in Marketing, and Chairman of Stern’s Luxury & Fashion Council. Further, Marc is developing legal policy and best practices for Web3 and other emerging technologies as Co-Chair of the New York State Bar Association’s Web3 Task Force. In this episode, he shares:Real-world Insights from a marketing agency at the forefront of the digital revolution on how to leverage and pull your brand into the new digital era The essential things you need to know about Web3, the metaverse and the digital space to take advantage of the new opportunities afforded by them How to use the perception of value of digital assets to create new revenue streams without cannibalizing your legacy streams The new opportunities to co-create with third parties in the digital space—or create a microverse of your own for your brand What brands can do—and examples of what they are already doing—to revamp their brand loyalty programs with these new technologies _________________________________________________________________________________________Episode Timeline:00:00—Highlight from today's episode01:09—Introducing Marc + The topic of today’s episode3:20—If you really know me, you know that...4:33—What is your definition of strategy?5:43—You came into your role from a legal background—can you explain this pathway?7:15—Can you give us a sense of what your agency does, and how technology is a fundamental role of this?10:12—Could you define what the metaverse is for you and your agency?12:16—Could you talk us through how these new opportunities offer the chance to revamp brand loyalty programs?15:27—How do you believe the perception of digital assets varies from generation to generation?18:58—Could you talk to us about Travis Scott and his revenue-generating digital concert?20:52—Could you tell us about the difference between decentralized, on-chain/off-chain verticals?22:29—Should companies be worrying about getting into these digital opportunities now, or are they already behind if they are not?24:23—How can people follow you and connect with you?Thank you to our guests, thank you to our executive producer, Karina Reyes, our editor, Zach Ness, and the rest of the team. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. I'm your host, Kaihan Krippendorff. Thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinkernetworks.com/podcast

Linda Yates is the founder and CEO of Mach49, the growth incubator for global businesses with clients including Goodyear, Gundersen Health, Hitachi, Intel, Pernod Ricard, Schneider Electric, Shell, and many more. She is a seasoned CEO and board member with over thirty years of experience bridging Silicon Valley and the Global 1000, creating global strategy, building companies, and driving innovation for large multinationals worldwide, and the author The Unicorn Within: How Companies Can Create Game-Changing Ventures at Startup Speed. She is a seasoned CEO and board member with over thirty years of experience bridging Silicon Valley and the Global 1000. With her firsthand e experience in one largest geographic incubators of unicorns in the world—Silicon Valley—Linda has fine-tuned a proven framework for building and sustaining corporate ventures. As heard in the highlight clip, Linda believes that incumbent enterprises CAN unlock their innovative capabilities. Contrary to commonly held dogma of large, established companies as being stagnant, and slow, the reality is that it is these large companies have many advantages to launch transformative projects that start-ups can only dream of. In this episode, she shares: Why your company needs to learn to pivot and adapt strategy to execution asap or risk becoming part of the 88% of companies that won't survive next decadesThe four pillars needed to jumpstart your company’s growth engine How to overcome the reticence many companies have of allocating funding toward risky new ventures How to ensure your organization is ready to successfully accelerate and scale opportunities—and make these stages fail-proof while doing so. _________________________________________________________________________________________Episode Timeline:00:00—Highlight from today's episode00:46—Introducing Linda + The topic of today’s episode2:48—If you really know me, you know that...3:49—What is your definition of strategy, and what got you interested in it?8:29—What are your thoughts on the idea that incumbent companies are too slow, too archaic?9:00—Could you talk us through the four pillars that companies need to build their growth engines?12:15—How do you overcome the reticence of companies to invest in new riskier investments and be willing to invest in new ventures?13:20—Could you lead us through how to really get to the heart of understanding customer pain? 17:50—Could you talk to us about the need to understand customers' perspectives, and what we overlook around this topic?19:55—How do you go about conducting customer development interviews?23:10—Can you lead us through building a portfolio of opportunities in the pipeline?17:09—Do you have any advice to which pathway should a company commit to?29:40—How can people follow you and keep learning from you?__________________________________________________________________________________________Additional Resources: Mach 49 Page: https://www.mach49.com/Linkedin: https://www.Thank you to our guests, thank you to our executive producer, Karina Reyes, our editor, Zach Ness, and the rest of the team. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. I'm your host, Kaihan Krippendorff. Thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinkernetworks.com/podcast

Mohan Subramaniam is a Professor of Strategy and Digital Transformation at the IMD Business School in Lausanne, Switzerland. He focuses on the digital transformation of incumbent industrial firms and new sources of competitive advantage in the digital age. He is a recognized thought leader in digital strategy, and have helped senior executives in several companies find new sources of value and growth for their companies when competing with data within emerging digital ecosystems. He outlines his thinking in his 2022 book The Future of Competitive Strategy: Unleashing the Power of Data and Digital Ecosystems, where he introduces a new paradigm for competitive strategy anchored in data and digital ecosystems and the game-changing role of digital technologies in the modern economy. Legacy firms have for decades anchored their competitive strategy in products and industry characteristics, but these approaches are now becoming outdated. His book therefore explains how legacy firms can harness their existing assets, infrastructure, and traditional strengths to leverage the new and explosive power of data by thoughtfully applying and emulating the best practices of digital titans such as Amazon and Google.His articles regularly appear in Harvard Business Review and MIT Sloan Management Review. I have also published articles in several leading academic journals such as Strategic Management Journal, Academy of Management Journal, the Journal of Management, and the Journal of International Business Studies, and my research has been recognized by awards from Strategic Management Society, McKinsey Corporation, the Academy of Management, the Academy of International Business, and the Decision Sciences Institute. In this episode, Mohan shares:Why some of the long-prevailing concepts of competitive strategy, like Michael Porter’s industry value chain, industry attractiveness (or five forces), and even the central paradigm of these approaches may have served us well for decades, but are increasingly becoming ineffectiveHow traditional legacy firms can harness their existing assets, infrastructure, and traditional strengths to be even more effective at the digital game than digital native giants like Amazon and Google Why the first step for such incumbent organizations should be to evolve your traditional customers to digital customers Why we should not just be thinking about ecosystems broadly, but about two specific—and different—ecosystems we need to create, and what they areWhy the idea that so many companies have of capturing and owning lots of data misses the point of what it means to win with data, in a world where the shelf-life value of the data you collect is getting shorter and shorter _________________________________________________________________________________________"The big shift in thinking is that we always thought of data as something that supports our product. What I'm saying is that think of products as something that can support your data."_________________________________________________________________________________________Episode Timeline:00:00—Highlight from today's episode01:02—Introducing Mohan + The topic of today’s episode2:58—If you really know me, you know that...3:25—What is your definition of strategy?3:36—Could you talk toThank you to our guests, thank you to our executive producer, Karina Reyes, our editor, Zach Ness, and the rest of the team. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. I'm your host, Kaihan Krippendorff. Thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinkernetworks.com/podcast

Sally Susman is Executive Vice President and Chief Corporate Affairs Officer at Pfizer. She is also Vice Chair of the Pfizer Foundation. Sally leads engagement with all of Pfizer’s external stakeholders, overseeing communications, corporate responsibility, global policy, government relations, investor relations, and patient advocacy. Before joining Pfizer in 2007, she held several senior communications and government relations roles at Estée Lauder Companies and the American Express Company.Through these extensive career experiences, Sally has honed an acute sense of how to navigate the delicate conversation that an organization must perpetually engage in with their stakeholders. And her work and expertise are more needed now than ever. With the growing interest among consumers, investors, and the community in the companies they support doing the right thing, your corporations’ success depends, more so than perhaps any time in history, on your ability to strategically approach the complex challenges of when to take stand, what stand to take, and how to authentically community your corporate stance to the world. In this episode, she shares: The 5 questions leaders can ask to determine what discourses they will engage in with the public, especially in this modern era where that channel is never “off’ How an organization can work in a collaborative way with their leadership and corporate affairs team to craft a united message that reflects company values The principles to mastering “informal influence”—getting others to be willing to adopt your ideas, as discussed in her most recent book, BREAKING THROUGH: Communicating to Open Minds, Move Hearts, and Change the World Why communications is not a nice-to-have soft skill, but an essential capability that any leader or company must master_________________________________________________________________________________________Episode Timeline:00:00—Highlight from today's episode00:52—Introducing Sally + The topic of today’s episode3:00—If you really know me, you know that...4:14—What is your definition of strategy?4:37—Can you tell us about a document Pfizer has developed called a "purpose blueprint"?6:00—What made you make the career shift from a government to corporate role?7:27—It seems that there is now a more pronounced expectation for corporations to channel their impact in the world, why do you think this is taking place, and why now?9:47—What are some suggestions you can share from the experience of navigating really high-stakes, fast moving moments?12:20—Could you tell us about how Pfizer navigated the Russian/Ukraine crisis?13:45—How does a leadership team approach creating a communication plan so that it's coming from authority? 15:07—Could you talk about the personal story in chapter two of your book regarding approaching difficult moments with courage and candor?17:48—Is there something you've changed your mind about?18:45—Any advice for being effective at using communication for informal influence?22:21—How can people follow you and keep learning from you?__________________________________________________________________________________________Additional Resources: Thank you to our guests, thank you to our executive producer, Karina Reyes, our editor, Zach Ness, and the rest of the team. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. I'm your host, Kaihan Krippendorff. Thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinkernetworks.com/podcast

David Shrier is a globally-recognized expert on technology-driven change at scale. He is a Professor of Practice, AI & Innovation, with Imperial College Business School, where he is founding faculty of the Centre for Digital Transformation and leads the new Trusted AI initiative. Healso chairs the Research group for the World Metaverse Council. Through his venture studio Visionary Future, David also works extensively with the private sector helping established organizations build innovative capacity, having developed $10 billion of value-creation opportunities with companies such as UBS, Dun & Bradstreet, Kyriba, Ernst & Young, GE and The Walt Disney Company, as well as leading private equity and VC funds. He is CEO of a NYSE-listed company which he led through a 500%-oversubscribed IPO, and advises disruptive technology companies such as Dandelion Science (neurotechnology) and Kaleidoco (metaverse). He is best known for creating and leading the blockchain and fintech classes for MIT and Oxford that expanded access in over 150 countries and revolutionized the business model for higher education online. His efforts resulted in nearly $1 billion of financial support for MIT, Harvard and Oxford. David’s government advisory work spans over 100 countries and has influenced policy affecting more than 2.4 billion people. He has published seven books in seven years; his eighth book, Basic Metaverse, is coming out June 8, from Little Brown and Harvard Business Publishing. More information at www.VisionaryFuture.com. In this episode, he shares: His definition of the metaverse in simple terms, and how it goes beyond just virtual reality, as it’s often perceived Several real-world examples of how AI and the metaverse are already changing industries, careers and businesses, from architecture to the practice of medicine, among many others The sheer accelerated pace at which newer technologies are being adopted compared to previous groundbreaking technologies in history How technology has shaped the way in which the public and private spheres work together to advance new initiatives and funding around these_________________________________________________________________________________________Episode Timeline:00:00—Highlight from today's episode00:51—Introducing David + The topic of today’s episode2:47—If you really know me, you know that...3:44—What is your definition of strategy?4:47—Could you talk to us about your work at Oxford and MIT around digital technologies?7:51—Could you give us your definition of the metaverse as you would explain it?9:43—How do you see business changing, and how long will these digital transformations be adopted?14:06—What are some of the implications of the adoption of these technologies that people would be surprised by or people get wrong?17:05—What drove you to write your newest book on AI, what was the timing?19:18—What do you think business leaders need to act in light of this fast impending change?__________________________________________________________________________________________Additional Resources: Personal Page: https://davidshrier.com/Company Page: Thank you to our guests, thank you to our executive producer, Karina Reyes, our editor, Zach Ness, and the rest of the team. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. I'm your host, Kaihan Krippendorff. Thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinkernetworks.com/podcast