Sustain

Guest Ashley Williams Panelists Richard Littauer | Justin Dorfman Show Notes Hello and welcome to Sustain! The podcast where we talk about sustaining open source for the long haul. We are super excited to have Ashley Williams joining us. Ashley is the Founder and CEO of Axo. She is also a former member of the Rust Core Team, founder of the Rust Foundation, and served as its first Executive Director. She was the leader of the Node.js Community Committee and founded the NodeTogether educational initiative. Today, Ashley shares her background with us from working at NPM, joining Mozilla, building the Rust Foundation, and she fills us in on Axo, which she explains is the tool company for tool companies. She also has some suggestions on how open source projects can get money to become successful in the long term. Go ahead and download this episode now to learn more! [00:01:41] Ashley explains what Axo does. [00:04:07] When Ashley moved from Node to Rust, she tells us what she took to the community there from the lessons she learned from Node, and how she wanted to build great communities in Rust. [00:09:35] We learn more about the process of building the Rust Foundation and why building it was necessary. [00:15:02] Justin wonders what it was that made the organizations calm again and why did they stick with Rust. [00:17:07] Ashley explains what the difference is for her and why one is better for open source software sustainability. [00:21:24] How do open source projects position themselves in the future to continue to have stake in their own governance and their own sustainability and where does Ashley think they should be investing their time? [00:23:28] We hear some tips from Ashley about the best way for a project to have a conversation with each other about setting goals and intentions for their project in a way that isn’t alienating. [00:30:02] Ashley shares a little of her background with us after leaving NPM, joining Mozilla, and she tells us about a tool she built called, wasm-pack. [00:33:35] We find out where can you learn about Axo, get involved, and if it’s open source. [00:35:15] Ashley shares some tips on what open source projects can do to get money to help themselves go forward and become financially viable in the long term. [00:40:11] Find out where you can follow Ashley on the web. Quotes [00:05:57] “I got super burned out of community work and Node and everyone kept throwing it in my face that I wasn’t technical. If I wasn’t so busy doing all this other stuff maybe I would commit some code.” [00:06:59] “When you build a community in reaction to something, when you stop reacting to that thing it’s hard to figure out what you do next and how you grow it.” [00:10:18] “It’s way worse to have a foundation too early than having a foundation too late.” [00:17:49] “I love to say ergonomics is eighty percent familiarity, and it appears to be true for organizations that are doing fundraising,” [00:18:31] “The goal of that Linux Foundation generation was to get corporations to use open source, which in a way is the opposite of making it sustainable because it adds an incredible burden.” [00:20:20] “I don’t think charity is the same as sustainability.” [00:24:23] “Try and get people to itch the same way.” [00:24:42] “Having really strong communication brand and marketing helps drive that shared collective vision.” [00:24:50] “I think Rust had really fantastic marketing for a really long time and that helped drive the community to have as much of a shared vision as is possible in a group of software engineers.” [00:29:00] “I don’t know if open source wants to be sustained.” [00:32:42] “Pay attention to the types of open source maintainers that are getting hired versus the ones that aren’t, because there are some patterns that no one should be proud of.” [00:35:57] “Get a company that loves your project and then get them to hire you to work on it.” [00:39:49] “The era of open source we’re in, there’s need for more safeguards.” Spotlight [00:41:01] Justin’s spotlight is axii.axo.dev. [00:41:34] Richard’s spotlight is an animated Chobani yogurt commercial. [00:42:25] Ashley’s spotlight is the Embroidery Trouble Shooting Guide. Links SustainOSS SustainOSS Twitter SustainOSS Discourse podcast@sustainoss.org Richard Littauer Twitter Justin Dorfman Twitter Ashley Williams Twitter Ashley Williams LinkedIn Axo Axo Twitter Sustain Podcast-Episode 135: Tracy Hinds on Node.js’s CommComm and PMs in Open Source Sustain Podcast-Episodes featuring guest Ewa Jodlowska Sustain Podcast-Episode featuring guest Deb Nicholson Sustain Podcast-Episode featuring guest Karen Sandler Sustain Podcast-Episode 56-Dominic Tarr on Coding What You Want, Living On A Boat, and the Early Days of Node.js Sustain Open Source Design Podcast Sustain Podcast-Episodes featuring guest Mike McQuaid axii.axo Eat today, feed tomorrow-Chobani commercial (YouTube) Embroidery Trouble Shooting Guide Credits Produced by Richard Littauer Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound Special Guest: Ashley Williams.Support Sustain

Guest Simon Minton Panelists Richard Littauer | Justin Dorfman Show Notes Hello and welcome to Sustain! The podcast where we talk about sustaining open source for the long haul. Richard and Justin are super excited to have as their guest today, Simon Minton, who’s the CEO of Ringer, which we’ll hear all about. Simon tells us how Ringer is different by the ways they provide for their maintainers, how they give back to projects, handle consultancy with projects, and he explains their recruitment process. Simon shares his long-term plan for Ringer, and a new tool they are building to help the ecosystem in the long-term. Go ahead and download this episode now to hear more! [00:01:54] Simon tells us how Ringer was born, what it is, and how many people use it. [00:05:00] Find out how Ringer is different. [00:08:59] Besides a payment gateway, we hear about some other infrastructure and services Simon is providing for the maintainers. [00:12:01] How does Ringer make sure that the money doesn’t just flow to the people on the top of the projects, but also to the projects as a whole? [00:14:16] Richard wonders how Simon teaches the next generation to become the next generation of Ringer HQ/maintainers besides the 5%. [00:15:19] Richard brings up a concern around consulting and Simon explains how they handle this with larger and smaller projects. [00:17:32] We learn about some projects where Ringer will be their consultancy platform. [00:19:19] Ringer’s recruitment process is explained. [00:21:33] Justin thinks the Ringer site is really cool and Simon shares where the inspiration came from. [00:23:30] Richard wonders if Simon has a long-term plan, and as he scales up his team if services will be provided to the consultants., and he tells us about the educational services he offers. [00:30:58] Simon informs us about a tool they are building right now to help the ecosystem in the long-term. [00:33:20] Justin brings up thanks.dev and the founder, Ali Nehzat. [00:35:58] We learn the meaning of Ringer and where you can follow Simon online. Spotlight [00:37:04] Justin’s spotlight is NextAuth.js. [00:37:30] Richard’s spotlight is Wikiquote and the works of Seneca the Younger. [00:38:13] Simon’s spotlight is Spatie and Freek Van der Herten. Links SustainOSS SustainOSS Twitter SustainOSS Discourse podcast@sustainoss.org Richard Littauer Twitter Justin Dorfman Twitter Simon Minton LinkedIn Simon Minton Twitter Ringer filament Sustain Podcast-Episode 142: Nicholas Zakas on Sponsoring Dependencies, All the Way Down Electron Ali Nehzat Twitter thanks.dev NextAuth.js Wikiquote-Seneca the Younger Spatie-GitHub Freek Van der Herten-GitHub Credits Produced by Richard Littauer Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound Special Guest: Simon Minton.Support Sustain

Guest Amanda Brock Panelists Richard Littauer | Justin Dorfman | Ben Nickolls Show Notes Hello and welcome to Sustain! The podcast where we talk about sustaining open source for the long haul. Today, we have an amazing guest and she’s been on this podcast before. Joining us is Amanda Brock, who’s the CEO of OpenUK, which is an industry organization about the business of open technology. She’s also a Board Member, keynote speaker, and author, with a new book coming out soon called, Open Source Law, Policy and Practice, that we’ll hear all about today. We’ll also be learning more about OpenUK and the policy work they do, Amanda tells us about the All Things Open (ATO) tech conference where she’ll be launching her book with some incredible panelists, and we hear some goals from Amanda for an event she’ll be attending to create a broader engagement across UK government, where they’ll focus on security, technical issues, and security policy issues. Go ahead and download this episode now! [00:01:27] Amanda tells us about OpenUK, the difference between OpenUK and the Software Sustainability Institute (SSI), and the policy work OpenUK does. [00:04:37] We learn if OpenUk’s mission has changed since Brexit, now that the UK is more of an independent body as a national group and how that’s influenced how we think about tech in Britain. [00:07:13] Amanda tells us all about her book coming out called, Open Source Law, Policy and Practice, that includes several authors, and the launch of her book at ATO. [00:12:06] One of the chapters in Amanda’s book is on sustainability and open source and since it’s relevant to this podcast Amanda explains more about this chapter. [00:13:52] Amanda explains some goals they have for the meeting that’s happening on the17th of October called, “Open Source Software: Infrastructure Curation and Security, Thought Leadership Event.” [00:18:28] Ben asks Amanda if she thinks anything is going to happen within the government from now until February and what she thinks of the government’s response in the US with the executive order around expenditure on open source in government departments and guidance around a software bill of materials and better understanding of what components are in software that’s using governments. [00:22:00] Richard wonders if there’s been a conversation about what happens if one part of the dependency stack doesn’t want to be included or bother with having a SBOM, dealing with the government, and refuses to do any work. [00:35:10] We hear a mad insurance scheme Amanda had a long time ago that’s she’s going to get some people to revisit. [00:37:02] Find out where to follow Amanda and OpenUK online. Quotes [00:17:13] “I think it’s really important that governments also see the level of engagement across our communities as strong, and that we are largely united at least body, that wants to see them understand how they do a much better job of curating open source software and ensuring that when they’re using it, they’re giving back both in terms of contribution and economic contribution.” [00:20:41] “In the US, the survey showed over 70% of organizations that are using SBOMs now.” [00:21:45] “You should not be taking on liability for the open source code. You should be taking on liability for the work you’re paid to do.” [00:24:02] “Coding to me is a freedom of speech.” [00:24:27] “My personal view is they’ll be public private enterprises or initiatives, and they will hold code that is sanitized or curated for usage in the public sector.” [00:24:38] “I think we’ll see governments wanting that and it’s not an OSPO, it’s a hybrid. It’s somewhere between a foundation and an OSPO.” [00:27:40] “Chainguard started creating their own Docker images with their own version of Nginx and Linux, and I think we’re going to see that trend continue.” [00:28:29] “What we don’t want is for governments to get everything from companies, because if they do, they’re going to end up back in a situation of vendor lock-in.” [00:35:58] “In the US at one time, you couldn’t buy insurance around open source because it was too unknown. I think there’s going to be a big space there where we can also manage some of this risk and some of the government money can go into that too and help protect the bigger picture.” Spotlight [00:37:58] Justin’s spotlight is opensauced.pizza founded by Brian Douglas. [00:38:30] Ben’s spotlight is Stellarium 1.0. [00:39:25] Richard’s spotlight is Collins Bird Guide and the app. [00:40:39] Amanda’s spotlight is Eddie Jaoude, a GitHub All-Star. Links SustainOSS SustainOSS Twitter SustainOSS Discourse podcast@sustainoss.org Richard Littauer Twitter Justin Dorfman Twitter Ben Nickolls Twitter Amanda Brock-OpenUK Amanda Brock Twitter Amanda Brock LinkedIn OpenUK OpenUK Twitter OpenUK LinkedIn All Things Open Twitter All Things Open-2022 Sustain Podcast-Episode 49: What OpenUK does with Amanda Brock & Andrew Katz Open Source Law, Policy, and Practice by Amanda Brock Neil Chue Hong Software Sustainability Institute OpenForum Europe Ecosyste.ms OpenSauced Stellarium 1.0 Collins Bird Guide Collins Bird Guide App Eddie Jaoude Twitter Eddie Jaoude GitHub Credits Produced by Richard Littauer Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound Special Guest: Amanda Brock.Support Sustain

Guest Nicholas Zakas Panelists Richard Littauer | Justin Dorfman Show Notes Hello and welcome to Sustain! The podcast where we talk about sustaining open source for the long haul. Our guest today is a returning guest that we’ve had on before. We are excited to have joining us, Nicholas Zakas, who’s one of the maintainers on ESLint, which is a tool that helps you find and fix problems in your JavaScript code. Today, we’ll learn all about ESLint, the maintainers, contributors, and how they get paid. Also, we’ll find out the success behind ESLint, and a post about sponsoring dependencies that Nicholas wrote on his blog. Go ahead and download this episode now to learn more! [00:02:23] Nicholas tells us all about ESLint, their maintainers that work on the project, and how many people have contributed to the project on GitHub. [00:07:29] Nicholas tells us how maintainers get paid as part of his governance strategy. [00:10:04] Justin asked about the fact that ESLint not only pays contributors, but also pays downstream dependencies. [00:12:04] Richard wonders where all the money comes from that gave ESLint this huge surplus, and Nicholas explains how they raised so much and what it is about ESLint that makes that possible. [00:16:10] We hear some reflections from Richard as he congratulates Nicholas and makes some important points about the success of ESLint. [00:20:19] Nicholas fills us in on the OpenJS Foundation Project. [00:23:57] Richard talks about a blog post Nicholas wrote on his blog about sponsoring dependencies, and Nicholas explains the difference between large charismatic projects and smaller projects and how he sees the role of large projects in funding the smaller ones. [00:31:41] We hear what ESLint did with sponsoring dependencies, and Nicholas tells us about some projects that they wanted to support financially, but turned them down. [00:38:06] Find out where you can follow Nicholas and ESLint online. Quotes [00:07:43] “Everybody on the team, the committers, reviewers, technical steering committee, gets paid an hourly rate for their contributions.” [00:07:53] “Contributions can be anything that contributes to the project, reviewing issues and pull requests, attending meetings, helping people on discord, helping people on GitHub discussions, and if people ever go to conferences or meetings representing the team, they can also charge for that.” [00:10:15] “We made a decision the beginning of last year that it was time to start supporting our dependencies.” [00:12:28] “I do think we are lucky in a lot of ways that we’ve had champions inside of companies who were working within their company to get ESLint’s support.” [00:13:13] “In the beginning, we were hesitant to start spending the money because we didn’t know how reliable that source of income would be, and we were worried we wouldn’t be able to pay a living wage.” [00:21:25] “Being in a foundation is one type of a reputational check mark that an open source project can get.” [00:26:15] “I think OpenSSL is a great example of [the funding problem]. It’s a foundational piece of internet infrastructure.” [00:28:31] “We went on backyourstack.com and started looking for the projects that we were depending on that had Open Collective pages and said, as a project, what is good for open source in general, is also good for ESLint.” [00:29:20] “Open source, in general, is this collective of projects that are built on top of projects that are built on top of projects that are built on top of projects, and we have no problem giving that recognition when we’re talking about what the project is built upon.” Spotlight [00:39:47] Justin’s spotlight is the new book, What if? 2 by Randall Munroe. [00:40:31] Richard’s spotlight is David Troupes, Buttercup Festival comic strips. [00:41:03] Nicholas’s spotlight is the book, WebAssembly: The Definitive Guide by Brian Sletten Links SustainOSS SustainOSS Twitter SustainOSS Discourse podcast@sustainoss.org Richard Littauer Twitter Justin Dorfman Twitter Nicholas Zakas Twitter Nicholas Zakas GitHub ESLint ESLint Twitter ESLint GitHub ESLint-Open Collective Sustain Podcast-Episode 101: Nicholas Zakas and ESLint Sponsoring dependencies: The next step in open source sustainability (Human Who Codes Blog) Sustain Podcast-Episode 117: Mike McQuaid of Homebrew on Sustainably Working on OSS Projects Sustain Podcast-Episode 126: GitHub Maintainer Month with Mike McQuaid of Homebrew and Nina Breznik of DatDot BackYourStack Securing Open Source Software Act of 2022 (Sustain) What if? 2 by Randall Munroe David Troupes-Buttercup Festival comic strips (Patreon) WebAssembly: The Definitive Guide by Brian Sletten Credits Produced by Richard Littauer Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound Special Guest: Nicholas Zakas.Support Sustain

Guest Melissa Mendonça Panelists Richard Littauer | Amanda Casari Show Notes Hello and welcome to Sustain! The podcast where we talk about sustaining open source for the long haul. Today, we are so excited to have a wonderful guest, Melissa Mendonça, joining us. Melissa is a Senior Developer Experience Engineer at Quansight, where she focuses more on developer experience and contributor experience. Today, we’ll hear all about Quansight and the focus for Melissa’s role as a Developer Experience Engineer. Melissa tells us about a grant they are working on with CZI that focuses on NumPy, SciPy, Matplotlib, and pandas, she shares several ideas on what can be done to make people feel seen and heard, and we hear her thoughts on what the future of community management and community development looks like for people entering the role of these projects. Go ahead and download this episode now to hear more! [00:01:25] Melissa tells us her background and her role at Quansight. [00:03:41] When Melissa made the decision to switch from one role to another, Amanda asks if that was her plan or if she learned that the skills that she needed to get things done changed over time. [00:06:10] We find out what the focus is for Melissa’s role as a Developer Experience Engineer and what she does on a day-to-day basis. [00:08:43] As Melissa was talking about her projects that they work on at Quansight, Amanda wonders if that’s the majority of her portfolio, or if she works across different kinds of projects. We learn about the current grant they are working on with CZI that focuses on NumPy, SciPy, Matplotlib, and pandas. [00:13:18] We learn about the funding model and how sustainable it is. [00:16:20] Melissa shares some great ideas on how we can put more effort into making people feel seen and heard. [00:19:26] Melissa details some things she learned with the open source projects and things she recommends for others with large established projects. [00:22:44] Amanda talks about a 2020 paper that was released in nature called “Array programming with NumPy,” and Melissa gives us her perspective on what happened with the community in 2020, if things have changed, and what needs to be addressed. [00:27:09] Find out how CZI got involved with Melissa’s work, what their goals are, and how she’s changing in order to adapt towards those goals. [00:31:32] Melissa shares her thoughts on what the future of community management and community development looks like for people who are entering the role for those projects. [00:36:40] We hear more about Python Brasil 2022 that’s coming up. [00:38:05] Find out where you can follow Melissa online and learn more about her work. Quotes [00:02:49] “Since Quansight is a company very focused on sustaining and helping maintain open source projects, we are trying to help new contributors, people who want to do the move from contributor to maintainer, understanding what that means, and how we can help them get there, and how we can help improve leadership in our open source projects.” [00:11:53] “This is one of the barriers that we want to break, is that making sure that people understand that these are important, they are core projects in the scientific Python ecosystem, but at the same time they are projects just like any other.” [00:12:17] “I think experience of working with projects that are so old and big has taught me a lot about the dynamics of how people work and how new people try to join these projects and how we can improve on that.” [00:16:41] “We need to make sure that people who do contribution outside of code are credited and that they are valued inside open source projects.” [00:18:20] “I think we should think about diversifying these paths for contribution, but for that we need to go beyond GitHub. We need to go beyond the current metrics that we have for open source, we need to go beyond the current credit system and reputation system that we have for open source contributions.” [00:30:38] “Community managers are not second-class citizens.” Spotlight [00:39:21 Amanda’s spotlight is a 2014 paper from MSR called, “The Promises and Perils of Mining GitHub.” [00:40:48] Richard’s spotlight is the book, Don’t Sleep, There Are Snakes, by Daniel Everett. [00:41:52] Melissa’s spotlights are Ralf Gommers and Scientific Python initiative. Links SustainOSS SustainOSS Twitter SustainOSS Discourse podcast@sustainoss.org Richard Littauer Twitter Amanda Casari Twitter Melissa Mendonça Twitter Melissa Mendonça LinkedIn Melissa Mendonça GitHub Quansight Quansight Labs Quansight Lab Projects Quansight Labs Team Sustain Podcast-Episode 57: Mikeal Rogers on Building Communities, the Early Days of Node.js, and How to Stay a Coder for Life Sustain Podcast-Episode 85: Geoffrey Huntley and Sustaining OSS with Gitpod Advancing an inclusive culture in the scientific Python ecosystem (CZI grant for NumPy, SciPy, Matplotlib, and Pandas Sustain Podcast-Episode 79: Leah Silen on how NumFocus helps makes scientific code more sustainable NumPy SciPy Matplotlib pandas Sustain Podcast-Episode 64: Travis Oliphant and Russell Pekrul on NumPy, Anaconda, and giving back with FairOSS Tania Allard Twitter Array programming with NumPy (nature) Python Brasil 2022 “The Promises and Perils of Mining GitHub,” by Eirini Kalliamvakou, Georgios Gousios, Kelly Blincoe, Leif Singer, Daniel M. German, Daniela Damian “The Promises and Perils of Mining GitHub,” by Eirini Kalliamvakou, Georgios Gousios, Kelly Blincoe, Leif Singer, Daniel M. German, Daniela Damian (ACM Digital Library) Daniel Everett (Wikipedia) Excerpt: ‘Don’t Sleep, There Are Snakes’ (npr) Ralf Gommers (GitHub) Scientific Python Credits Produced by Richard Littauer Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound Special Guest: Melissa Mendonça.Support Sustain

Guest Courtney Miller | Hongbo Fang Panelists Richard Littauer | Eriol Fox Show Notes Hello and welcome to Sustain! The podcast where we talk about sustaining open source for the long haul. We are super excited to talk to our guests today on the topic of toxicity in open source. Today, we have joining us, Courtney Miller and Hungbo Fang, who are both PhD students at Carnegie Mellon University. We asked them to come on because we were curious about their work, and they came highly recommended by Bogdan Vasilescu. We’ll hear more about Courtney’s talk and her paper on her award-winning work exploring toxicity in open source communities, and we’ll find out the work Hongbo has done focusing on information flow and where people talk about open source. Download this episode now to learn more! [00:02:49] Courtney tells us about the talk she gave at the Linux Open Source Summit on her work exploring toxicity in open source communities. [00:03:55] We find out if there was a data set that was used to find the information. [00:05:08] Hongbo focuses on information flow and where do people talk about open source, and he tells us what his involvement is with this work. [00:06:57] Courtney tells us what she saw within the hundred issues and how she broke them down and tagged them to get to the conclusions she had. [00:08:44] We hear how Courtney used the technical definition of toxicity introduced by Google’s Perspective API tool to inform the decisions of what toxicity means. [00:12:01] Eriol wants to know whether Courtney’s had thoughts or intentions of looking into the content moderation space to see if there’s any similarities between what’s happening there. [00:14:29] Richard wonders what we can do to improve the state of toxicity in open source and wonders if she has any future work that can make this better. [00:16:08] Hongbo shares his thoughts about the future and what we can do to solve this from a quantitative angle. [00:17:02] Based on Courtney’s work, we find out if she thinks AI has improved, if she has hope, and Hongbo shares his thoughts as well. [00:19:20] Eriol wants to know how community members can help researchers by talking about things that are less referenced in the paper, and how Courtney thinks about tackling some of the harder to read parts of toxicity with new emerging spaces. [00:24:54] We find out if there’s a place where open source could have a restorative justice around toxicity and what action is there for the open source community to move from talking about our experiences of toxicity to how we can heal. [00:27:40] Hongbo explains what his work is mainly focused on, how he’s holding this space, and suggestions he has for the future on how we can improve information flow. [00:34:31] Richard talks about a paper called, The Tyranny of Structurelessness by Jo Freeman, and wonders if Hongbo has any suggestions for how to help open source projects with information gap issues. [00:39:33] Find out where you can follow Courtney, Hongbo, and their work online. Quotes [00:12:11] "Open source toxicity is not new, it’s very old. The long-term effects of this toxicity, especially in open source, is why I was really moved to do this research.” [00:14:56] “If you can identify toxic comments, and deal with them, instead of making the maintainers spend the emotional labor every time dealing with this stuff – [that] can be very helpful.” [00:15:17] “Maintainers are often toxic in their own projects.” [00:15:40] “We have issue templates – what about issue response templates?” [00:25:47] “If a community has leadership that tolerates certain things, it’s going to happen. If the community has leadership that does not tolerate certain things, it’s not going to happen.” Spotlight [00:41:21] Eriol’s spotlight is Digital Safety Snacks by Pen America. [00:41:58] Richard’s spotlight is an article he read called, The Opposite of Rape Culture is Nurturance Culture by Nora Samaran. [00:42:40] Hongbo’s spotlight is the book, Roads and Bridges: The Unseen Labor Behind Our Digital Infrastructure by Nadia Eghbal. [00:43:32] Courtney’s spotlight is the book, Working in Public: The Making and Maintenance of Open Source Software by Nadia Eghbal, and the tool, Betty. Links SustainOSS SustainOSS Twitter SustainOSS Discourse podcast@sustainoss.org Richard Littauer Twitter Eriol Fox Twitter Courtney Miller Twitter Courtney Miller-GitHub Courtney Miller LinkedIn Hongbo Fang Twitter Hongbo Fang LinkedIn Sustain Podcast-Episode 40: How Open Source Maintainers Don’t Get Rich with Bogdan Vasilescu Perspective API Christian Kästner Kat Lo Twitter Meedan Twitter Open Source Diversity The Tyranny of Structurelessness by Jo Freeman “Did You Miss My Comment or What?” Understanding Toxicity in Open Source Discussions (paper) Roads and Bridges Sustain Podcast-Episode 51: Working in Public: Nadia Eghbal and her new book about Making and Sustaining Open Source Software Nadia Asparouhova (Eghbal) Website Digital Safety Snacks by Pen America The Opposite of Rape Culture is Nurturance Culture by Nora Samaran Roads and Bridges: The Unseen Labor Behind Our Digital Infrastructure by Nadia Eghbal Working in Public: The Making and Maintenance of Open Source Software by Nadia Eghbal Betty Credits Produced by Richard Littauer Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound Special Guests: Courtney Miller and Hongbo Fang.Support Sustain

Guest Manuel Riel Panelists Richard Littauer | Justin Dorfman Show Notes Hello and welcome to Sustain! The podcast where we talk about sustaining open source for the long haul. Today, we are super excited to have as our guest, Manuel Riel, joining us from Austria. Manu ran a web development agency and launched multiple open source related products, including an invoice processing tool, and a backup service. He’s also the Co-founder of PikaPods, which is a container hosting service for open source apps. Manu is with us to talk about PikaPods. We’ll find out what it does, why it’s needed, the benefits of having it, the most popular app, and plans he has in the future for PikaPods. Go ahead and download this episode to learn more! [00:01:23] Manu tells us his background, what PikaPods is, and about the apps. [00:03:32] What’s the difference between Heroku, Netlify, and PikaPods? [00:04:29] Since you can’t run your own stuff and you can’t edit the apps, Manu explains how this is an open source marketplace. We hear about PikaPods user base, how long he’s been up and running, and how many people are using the platform. [00:06:11] Manu explains the one source of revenue they provide to open source office. [00:09:06] We hear Manu’s selling point he pitches to open source maintainers and open source projects. [00:11:45] Why did Manu choose to work with open source projects to host when there are other things available to him? Why PikaPods? [00:13:32] Justin brings up pricing on PikaPods site and comments a trend with the ones that paid the least had the most demands. He wonders how Manu deals with that. [00:15:04] Justin wonders if the services are subsidized by using the BorgBase infrastructure, and Manu explains how they are totally separate, and he tells us about his team. [00:16:31] We hear if there are any collabs with maintainers Manu is working with since there are a lot of projects he hosts. [00:18:02] Find out PikaPods most popular app, if there’s a limit, and if bandwidth is an issue. [00:21:17] Manu shares some things he would like to do in the future with PikaPods. [00:23:35] How does Manu position himself in the ecosystem and are there other things that could be used in collaboration with PikaPods that makes it easier for maintainers? [00:25:37] Find out where you can follow Manu and PikaPods online. Quotes [00:10:08] “Hosting is not a good fit for part-time maintainers because it’s a big responsibility.” [00:12:20] “The motivating event for me was the Log4j Vulnerability.” Spotlight [00:26:42] Justin’s spotlight is pydantic, data validation and settings management using Python type hints. [00:27:10] Richard’s spotlight is Amna Shamim. [00:27:36] Manu’s spotlight is Uptime Kuma, a fancy self-hosted monitoring tool. Links SustainOSS SustainOSS Twitter SustainOSS Discourse podcast@sustainoss.org Richard Littauer Twitter Justin Dorfman Twitter PikaPods PikaPods Twitter Apache Log4j Vulnerability pydantic Amna Shamim Uptime Kuma Credits Produced by Richard Littauer Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound Special Guest: Manuel Riel.Support Sustain

Guest Ruth Cheesley Panelists Richard Littauer | Ben Nickolls | Eriol Fox | Justin Dorfman Show Notes Hello and welcome to Sustain! The podcast where we talk about sustaining open source for the long haul. Today, we are excited to have as our guest, Ruth Cheesley, joining us from the UK. She is an open-source advocate and Project Lead for Mautic at Acquia. We invited Ruth on this podcast because we don’t seem to have enough talks from people who are part of an actual community of coders. Today, Ruth tells us all about Mautic and her job there as Project Lead, she fills us in on Drupal and Acquia, and a tool they used in managing community health called, Savannah. We’ll also hear Ruth’s strategy when she helped with governance, why Open Source Friday is so important, she explains how she diversifies the contributor base, and we hear her ten-year vision for Mautic she’s working on. Go ahead and download this episode now to learn more! [00:02:38] Ruth explains what Mautic is, how she became the Project Lead and being on the Community Leadership Team at Joomla. [00:04:48] Find out the difference between Joomla, Drupal, Acquia, and Mautic. [00:06:17] From someone that organizes open source communities at his job, Justin asks Ruth what tools she uses, and she tells us about one called, Savannah. [00:08:54] Ruth tells us about what her strategy was when she helped with governance. [00:12:47] Richard wonders if the assessment also applies to Mautic and if Mautic is just the same as every other open source project on the web. [00:16:03] Eriol asks Ruth to tell us some success stories or things that have been tricky between different kinds of functions within the open source. [00:19:14] We learn how Ruth sees her role or the roles of other people who are being paid as being part of a sustainable path for Mautic itself, and how money has a play in the ecosystem as well as attribution. [00:21:59] Ruth explains if Acquia pays for full-time engineers and for traditional coder roles for Mautic, and she tells us about Open Source Friday. [00:24:20] Eriol wonders if there’s anything people can go read or listen to around how smaller organizations or individuals can make that kind of contribution sustainable and are there things we can implement. [00:27:09] Ruth tells us about a partner’s program they created in Mautic. [00:29:27] How does Ruth manage to diversify the contributor base, given that not everyone has the access or time to do that sort of work? [00:32:01] Ruth shares a ten-year vision with a three-year strategy for Mautic. [00:34:10] Find out where you can follow Ruth online. Quotes [00:09:14] “There wasn’t really a community empowerment process to set up workflows and training for people to take on the releases, so the project just sort of slowed down.” [00:32:28] “It’s quite tricky during longer term plans when you have lots of businesses that are depending on your software, because what one business thinks the product should do is maybe different to what another business thinks the product should do.” Spotlight [00:35:27] Justin’s spotlight is Tour de Source newsletter. [00:35:46] Eriol’s spotlight is Fantasy Map Generator. [00:36:20] Ben’s spotlight is Roden open source bike design. [00:37:02] Richard’s spotlight is Richard Matthews and his Oyster Yachts, and the Royal Naval Tot Club of Antigua & Barbuda. [00:37:46] Ruth’s spotlight is Ardour, a tool to compose music. Links SustainOSS SustainOSS Twitter SustainOSS Discourse podcast@sustainoss.org Richard Littauer Twitter Ben Nickolls Twitter Justin Dorfman Twitter Eriol Fox Twitter Ruth Cheesley Twitter Ruth Cheesley LinkedIn Ruth Cheesley Website Mautic Joomla Sustain Podcast-Episode 109: Dries Buytaert of Drupal on Balancing Makers and Takers to Scale and Sustain Open Source Drupal Mautic Open-Source Marketing Automation Project (Open Collective) Savannah Mautic Community Manifesto Working in Public: The Making and Maintenance of Open Source Software by Nadia Eghbal Google Season of Docs Open Source Friday Acquia’s Drupal Acceleration Team Acquia’s response to the Mautic Community Manifesto Mautic Community Governance Model Response to Community Consultation on the Governance Model Proposal Establishing an incentivised partners programme in an open source project Tour de Source Fantasy Map Generator Roden Oyster Yachts Royal Naval Tot Club of Antigua & Barbuda Ardour Ardour-GitHub Credits Produced by Richard Littauer Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound Special Guest: Ruth Cheesley.Support Sustain

Panelists Richard Littauer | Deb Nicholson | Alyssa Wright | Josep Prat | Duane O’Brien Show Notes Hello and welcome to Sustain! The podcast where we talk about sustaining open source for the long haul. We have an exciting episode today because just like long haul truckers, open source maintainers are the people who are keeping the world alive with open source. What we’re excited about is a talk that we gave at OSPOCon in Austin. The talk was called, Panel Discussion: A How-to Guide for Contributing to Open Source as an Employee. This discussion was super important because employees do put a lot of work into open source code, and we wanted to talk about how to contribute to open source better. So, along with Richard, we have four other esteemed colleagues that were a part of this amazing talk, and we decided to put it on this podcast because it represents an initiative that is going to try to showcase to companies how to authentically participate in open source. The panelists joining us are Deb Nicholson from the Python Software Foundation, Alyssa Wright from Bloomberg, Josep Prat from Aiven, and Duane O’Brien from Indeed. Go ahead and download this episode now to find out more! [00:05:23] Duane starts us off by giving us a little history lesson on the Principles of Authentic Participation and how we got to where we are with the work today. [00:09:01] The panelists will go through and explain what they think it means to be an authentic participant in open source by going through the principles in order. Josep explains Principle 1: Starts Early. [00:10:24] Deb explains _Principle 2: Puts the Community First: the collective holds the timeline. _ [00:11:10] Alyssa explains Principle 3: Starts With Listening. [00:12:32] Duane explains Principle 4: Has Transparent Motivations. [00:13:45] Josep explains Principle 5: Enforces Respectful Behavior. [00:15:15] Richard explains Principle 6: Ends Gracefully. [00:16:05] The last one is a fun one which is _Principle 0: Don’t be a Jerk _;) [00:16:58] Duane talks about some of the behaviors that were discussed with the principles so that they make more sense. [00:20:23] The panelists let us know what we can do to make sure these principles are something that companies can adopt. [00:25:20] Deb touches on commitments or cooperation commitments that people have signed up for and she tells us about the GPL Cooperation Commitment. [00:31:35] Alyssa tells us about their intent to finalize the principles by the end of summer and put it out for community review and feedback, as well as speaking about it as OSPOCon Europe 2022 in September. TODO GUIDE: Employee Open Source Engagement Guide Principle 1: Starts Early Principle 2: Puts the Community First: the collective holds the timeline Principle 3: Starts With Listening Principle 4: Has Transparent Motivations Principle 5: Enforces Respectful Behavior Principle 6: Ends Gracefully Principle 0: Don’t be a Jerk ;) Spotlight [00:33:52] Deb’s spotlight is Duane O’Brien. [00:34:13] Duane’s spotlights are the book A Prayer for the Crown-Shy by Becky Chambers, and to take thirty minutes to sit outside and watch people having fun because it will change your day. [00:35:08] Alyssa’s spotlight is cold showers and AC. [00:35:36] Josep’s spotlight is to do work with people you never knew before. [00:36:25] Richard’s spotlight is Capital Grounds, a café in downtown Montpelier, Vermont, and an amazing Irish barista that works there. Links SustainOSS SustainOSS Twitter SustainOSS Discourse podcast@sustainoss.org Richard Littauer Twitter Deb Nicholson Twitter Alyssa Wright Twitter Josep Prat Twitter Duane O’Brien Twitter TODO Group Issues-GitHub Principles of Authentic Participation Justin W. Flory Twitter Sustain 2021 Event Report TODO Guide: Employee Open Source Engagement Guide Principles of Authentic Participation-How do the Principles help? Contributor Covenant Code of Conduct Join the GPL Cooperation Commitment A Prayer for the Crown-Shy: A Monk and Robot Book by Becky Chambers Capital Grounds Credits Produced by Richard Littauer Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound Support Sustain

Guest Daniel S. Katz Panelists Richard Littauer | Ben Nickolls | Amanda Casari Show Notes Hello and welcome to Sustain! The podcast where we talk about sustaining open source for the long haul. We are very excited to have as our guest Daniel S. Katz, who’s Chief Scientist at the National Center for Supercomputing Applications (NCSA), Research Associate Professor in Computer Science, Electrical and Computer Engineering, and the School of Information Sciences at the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign. He’s also a Better Scientific Software (BSSw) Fellow and is one of the founding editors and the current Associate Editor-in-Chief of The Journal of Open Source Software. His interest is in cyber infrastructure, advanced cyber infrastructure, and solving problems at scale, but he’s also interested in policy issues, citation, and credit mechanisms. Today, Dan is joining us to talk about the Research Software Alliance (ReSA), how academia has changed over the years, and why funding is necessary for these projects. Go ahead and download this episode now to find out more! [00:04:39] Dan explains what the Research Software Alliance is. [00:08:09] We find out the difference between the ReSA and URSSI communities. [00:11:34] Richard wonders why funding is necessary for all these projects and how do we diversify our funding to make sure that it’s not just Sloan that does this. [00:17:40] Ben asks if Dan thinks the conversation within academia and within research institutions is more mature and developed or more trustful compared to what’s happening in commercial industry right now. [00:22:00] We find out why research software is fundamentally different from corporate software from the makers perspective, and Dan shares with us a project he’s working on called Parsl. [00:26:25] Amanda brings up the Journal of Open Source Software and asks Dan if he thinks that software is viewed yet as a first class research project online with a published paper, and if not, what are the barriers and what things need to change in the academia industry. [00:30:38] If you’re a Research Software Engineer, Software Engineer, Engineer, or at companies or academies, find out how you can get involved in ReSA. Dan also tells us more about the importance of funding. [00:34:03] Find out the best places you can follow Dan online. Spotlight [00:34:45] Ben’s spotlight is his favorite piece of research work called FITS. [00:35:24] Amanda’s spotlight is a paper she read titled, “Did You Miss My Comment or What?” Understanding Toxicity in Open Source Discussions [00:36:37] Richard’s spotlight is a paper he read titled, “How many genera of Stercorariidae are there?” [00:37:29] Dan’s spotlight is the book, Radical Candor by Kim Scott. Links SustainOSS SustainOSS Twitter SustainOSS Discourse podcast@sustainoss.org Richard Littauer Twitter Ben Nickolls Twitter Amanda Casari Twitter Daniel S. Katz Twitter Daniel S. Katz LinkedIn FAIR Principles RDA-Research Data Alliance FORCE11-The Future of Research Communications and e-Scholarship Sustain Podcast-Episode 88 and Episode 79 with Leah Silen The Sloan Foundation Technology program announces over $5M in new grants Research Software Alliance URSSI Karthik Ram-UC Berkeley FAIR for Research Software (FAIR4RS) Principles A survey of the state of the practice for research software in the United States (PeerJ Computer Science) OSPO++ Open Work in Academia Summit-RIT Software Sustainability Institute Parsl ROpenSci The Journal of Open Source Software NCSA Post-doc posting on policy for sustainable code in research software CIG-Computational Infrastructure for Geodynamics FITS “Did You Miss My Comment or What? Understanding Toxicity in Open-Source Discussions How many genera of Stercorariidae are there? (Springer Link) Radical Candor by Kim Scott Credits Produced by Richard Littauer Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound Special Guest: Daniel S. Katz.Support Sustain