
Notice That
An EMDR Podcast
Latest episodes

Jul 3, 2025 • 1h 11min
EMDR and The Brain's Networks: A Conversation About Modern Neruoscience
Why Does EMDR Work? A Dive into Network Neuroscience and the Brain’s Healing PotentialEye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR) has transformed trauma therapy, but an age-old question lingers: How does it actually work?For decades, the EMDR community has debated this question. Early theories focused on specific brain structures—the hippocampus for memory, the amygdala for fear, the prefrontal cortex for executive control. This modular perspective helped us make sense of a complex process. But neuroscience has evolved, and so has our understanding.In Episode 2 of Notice That: An EMDR Podcast, Bridger Falkenstien and Jen Savage explore a paradigm shift—from modular to network neuroscience—and how this broader lens reshapes the way we think about trauma, healing, and EMDR.From Modules to Networks: A Shift in Understanding the BrainTraditionally, neuroscience taught us that individual brain regions had specific jobs. The amygdala processes fear. The hippocampus handles memory. The prefrontal cortex regulates impulses.This modular view isn’t wrong—it’s just incomplete.In reality, the brain functions as a dynamic, interconnected system of networks. Modern neuroscience shows us that even when one area specializes in a task, it does so within a web of relationships. Trauma doesn’t just impact a single region; it disrupts the collaboration between networks.This is where network neuroscience comes in. Instead of asking which part of the brain?, we ask:Which networks are interacting?How are they integrating—or failing to integrate—under stress?How does EMDR facilitate re-integration?Meet the Big Three: Core Brain Networks in Trauma and HealingResearch in network neuroscience highlights three large-scale networks that play a crucial role in both trauma and recovery:1. Salience Network (SN)Function: Detects and filters what’s important—internal sensations, external stimuli, emotional cues—and decides what deserves attention.Trauma Impact: Becomes hypervigilant or shut down, tagging even neutral cues as threats.In EMDR: Helps shift between the past (default mode) and present (executive control).2. Default Mode Network (DMN)Function: Self-reflection, autobiographical memory, mentalizing (“Who am I? What happened to me?”).Trauma Impact: Loops in shame, rumination, and “frozen” identity narratives.In EMDR: Holds the story of the traumatic experience and the meanings made from it.3. Central Executive Network (CEN)Function: Working memory, decision-making, regulating attention.Trauma Impact: Goes offline in overwhelm, leaving clients unable to think clearly or plan.In EMDR: Critical for top-down regulation of subcortical processes.These networks don’t operate in isolation—they’re in constant conversation. Trauma disrupts that conversation, leading to disintegration. Healing requires restoring their collaborative flow.How EMDR Works in the Brain: Beyond the ProtocolDuring EMDR, when a traumatic memory is activated (Phase 3) and bilateral stimulation (BLS) is applied, something remarkable happens:The SN flags the traumatic memory as salient—“Pay attention. This matters.”The DMN pulls up self-referential meaning—“This means I’m unsafe/useless/etc.”The CEN is invited back online through dual attention tasks, helping the client hold both the memory and the present moment in awareness.This isn’t just a mechanical process. It’s a forced redistribution of cognitive resources that breaks the brain out of its trauma-locked loop.As Bridger explains:“It’s like unpacking an avalanche—slowly taking out the debris so the mountain can reorganize.”The goal isn’t just to desensitize distress. It’s to help the networks regain their natural flow—so that the body and mind no longer behave as if the trauma is still happening.The Role of Working Memory TheoryWorking Memory Theory suggests that when we overload the brain’s working memory—by recalling the traumatic memory while engaging in a second task like BLS—the vividness and emotional charge of the memory fade.This theory helps explain why EMDR works, but it’s not the whole story.Strength: Shows how “dual attention” can disrupt trauma loops.Limitation: Doesn’t account for why some clients feel worse after sessions or why deeper transformation requires relational safety.This is why Beyond Healing integrates working memory theory within a larger, network-based, relational perspective.Why Therapists Should Care About NeuroscienceSome may wonder: Why bother with all this neuroscience? Isn’t it enough to follow the EMDR protocol?Here’s why it matters: ✅ Understanding networks builds confidence in the method. ✅ It empowers therapists to adjust their interventions with intention. ✅ It helps clinicians see why attunement and resourcing aren’t optional—they’re essential to reintegration.As Savage reflects in the episode:“This shifts us from memorizing a protocol to creatively, relationally helping clients heal.”Key Takeaways for CliniciansEMDR works by regulating relationships between the SN, DMN, and CEN.BLS is more than eye movements—it’s a physiological regulator.Attunement and relational safety are as critical as technical precision.Neuroscience doesn’t limit creativity—it expands it.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Jun 5, 2025 • 57min
Why Does EMDR Work? Exploring Working Memory, Bilateral Stimulation, and the Science of Change
EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing) has transformed the way clinicians approach trauma. But what exactly makes it so effective? Is it the bilateral stimulation? The eight-phase protocol? Or is there something deeper at play in the brain?In this blog post, we unpack one of the leading theories behind EMDR’s effectiveness: working memory taxation. Drawing from neuroscience, clinical research, and therapist experience, we explore how EMDR works by engaging specific brain systems and redistributing attention and memory resources. This post is ideal for clinicians, students, and curious learners who want to understand the science behind EMDR in clear, accessible terms.What is Working Memory, and Why Does It Matter in Trauma Therapy?Working memory is your brain's ability to hold and manipulate information over short periods of time. It’s the mental workspace where you solve problems, remember a phone number long enough to dial it, or pay attention while taking notes.In the context of trauma, working memory becomes critical because:Traumatic memories often dominate attention.When the brain is flooded with fear or shame, it struggles to stay in the present.Engaging working memory during trauma recall may disrupt the brain’s typical response pattern.This is the heart of working memory theory in EMDR: if a client holds a traumatic image in mind while simultaneously completing a working memory task (like tracking a moving object), the emotional vividness of the memory is reduced."It’s not just distraction—it’s reconsolidation. You’re using one part of the brain to loosen the grip of another."Research supports this. Studies by Van den Hout, Engelhard, and others (2012) show that taxing working memory reduces the emotional intensity and vividness of traumatic memories.Understanding the Brain: From Modules to NetworksEarly neuroscience often focused on modular thinking:Fear = amygdalaMemory = hippocampusAttention = prefrontal cortexWhile useful, this model doesn’t explain why trauma affects everything at once.Enter network neuroscience, a more recent and comprehensive model. Instead of isolated parts, brain functions are distributed across large-scale systems called intrinsic connectivity networks. These networks regulate everything from thought and memory to emotion and attention.Among the most important are:Default Mode Network (DMN) – self-reflection, autobiographical memorySalience Network (SN) – threat detection, switching between networksCentral Executive Network (CEN) – working memory, decision-makingWhen trauma occurs, these networks lose synchrony. Clients may:Loop in shame (DMN)Feel hypervigilant or numb (SN)Struggle to think clearly (CEN)What EMDR Is Doing in the BrainDuring EMDR, when a distressing memory is activated:The Salience Network (SN) flags it as important.The Default Mode Network (DMN) brings up self-referential associations.The Central Executive Network (CEN) tries to stay present.Dual attention tasks, such as bilateral stimulation, tax the CEN, anchoring the client in the present moment. This reduces the cognitive resources available to the DMN, weakening the emotional grip of the memory. Meanwhile, the SN helps orchestrate the shift between past and present."The SN becomes the conductor, coordinating two orchestras: past (DMN) and present (CEN)."Memory Reconsolidation in EMDRNeuroscience shows that memories are not fixed. According to Nader et al. (2000), a memory becomes labile (changeable) when it is reactivated. If, during that reactivation, new information is introduced, the memory can be reconsolidated in a less distressing form.EMDR leverages this by:Activating the memory (DMN)Providing a new experience (CEN + therapeutic presence)Re-tagging the emotional salience (SN)It’s not that the memory disappears. It’s that the brain knows how to relate to it differently.Critiquing Working Memory Theory: What It Gets Right and What It MissesWhat It Gets Right:Working memory tasks disrupt trauma memory vividness.Bilateral stimulation engages attention and reduces fear.Dual-task interference is measurable and repeatable in lab settings.What It Misses:EMDR is not a mechanical task. Relationship matters.Trauma isn’t just about intensity—it’s about meaning.The SN requires emotional safety to flag experiences as worth integrating."The working memory load softens the emotional punch, but it’s the network reconnection—guided by safety and co-regulation—that allows transformation."Clinical Takeaways: How to Use This Understanding in PracticeWhen you slow down and attune to your client, you’re helping their Salience Network reclassify experience from threat to meaning.When you invite parts to speak, you’re engaging DMN + SN.When you use BLS while grounding, you’re co-activating CEN + SN.By working relationally with the client, you’re helping the brain do what it was always meant to do: integrate.Want More?Episode 2 of the series explores large-scale brain systems and how EMDR creates reconnection across networks.Upcoming episodes dive into AI-supported EMDR and EMDR 2.0 with Dr. Suzy Matthijssen.Further Reading:Van den Hout, M., & Engelhard, I. (2012). How does EMDR work? Journal of Experimental Psychopathology.Nader, K., Schafe, G. E., & LeDoux, J. E. (2000). Fear memories require protein synthesis in the amygdala for reconsolidation after retrieval. Nature.Chamberlin, E. (2022). The Neurophysiology of EMDR and the Three Core Networks.Siegel, D. J. (2012). The Developing Mind: How Relationships and the Brain Interact to Shape Who We Are.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

May 22, 2025 • 1h 6min
Human First: A Conversation with The EMDR Coach, Dana Carretta Stein
Join Dana Carretta Stein, an EMDR therapist and owner of Peaceful Living Mental Health Counseling, as she delves into the vital role of human connection in therapy. Dana discusses how authenticity can enhance healing, challenging the traditional expectation of neutrality in therapists. She emphasizes the importance of vulnerability and self-reflection, illustrating how these elements foster deeper client relationships. The conversation takes a heartfelt turn, exploring the transformative power of connection in both therapy and the professional journey.

May 8, 2025 • 1h 2min
EMDR, Cultural Humility, and Doing Your Own Work: Conversation with Mark Nickerson
“To be a culturally competent therapist is to be a human first—curious, aware, humble, and willing to grow.”In this powerful episode of Notice That: An EMDR Podcast, Jen Savage sits down with EMDR therapist, author, and cultural competence advocate Mark Nickerson, LICSW for a rich and timely conversation about what it really means to bring cultural responsiveness into our clinical work.This episode invites clinicians to think beyond checkboxes and intake forms—and to reflect on how their personal stories, social identities, and cultural histories shape the therapy they provide. Together, Jen and Mark explore how EMDR can help process both internalized oppression and social bias, and how the work of healing requires an ongoing willingness to look inward.“Cultural humility isn’t an add-on—it’s at the heart of any real change.” — Mark Nickerson, LICSWWhy This Conversation MattersTherapists often long to be affirming, inclusive, and aware—but aren’t sure where to begin. Mark’s insights offer both practical steps and deep philosophical grounding. His perspective is shaped by decades of clinical work, social advocacy, and a commitment to human rights.He shares stories from early workshops where EMDR was used to process two core themes:A memory of being excluded or discriminated againstA memory of holding bias or participating in exclusionIn both cases, EMDR offered clarity, healing, and increased self-awareness—making space for deeper empathy and greater readiness to grow.Featured Topics:What it means to do your own cultural work as a therapistHow identity, privilege, and power dynamics shape the therapy processUsing EMDR to target internalized oppression and social biasLegacy trauma, intergenerational pain, and cultural narrativesHow cultural humility invites us into lifelong self-examinationWhy EMDR is well-suited to address culturally based trauma—when practiced with awarenessAbout the BookMark is the editor and contributing author of the seminal book Cultural Competence and Healing Culturally Based Trauma with EMDR Therapy (2nd ed., 2023).Spanning more than 400 pages, the book includes seven chapters by Mark and 20 more by authors with diverse identities, backgrounds, and clinical expertise. It addresses racial trauma, immigration and asylum seeking, social class, systemic oppression, and cultural adaptations of EMDR around the world.Whether you read it cover-to-cover or use it as a chapter-by-chapter resource, it’s an essential tool for therapists seeking to deepen their work.📘 Learn more about the book and Mark’s work at: markinickerson.comWant to Go Even Deeper?If this conversation stirred something in you—if you’re beginning to ask how your own story shows up in the therapy room—consider exploring the Somatic Integration and Processing (SIP) framework.SIP isn’t a replacement for EMDR. It’s a lens that helps therapists explore the worldview they bring into their work. It asks:Why do I respond this way in session?What does safety mean to me?What am I unconsciously avoiding?SIP helps therapists do their own work—by mapping how our nervous systems, identities, and histories shape our therapeutic presence.📥 Want to explore it for yourself? Comment “mirror” on our Instagram page or visit connectbeyondhealing.com and search “SIP” to receive a free PDF chapter on the SIP model.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

11 snips
Apr 10, 2025 • 1h 19min
Is EMDR Too Insular?: A Conversation with Derek Farrell
Derek Farrell, a UK clinical psychologist and international EMDR leader, discusses the need for EMDR to evolve beyond its insular approach. He emphasizes the importance of collaboration with other organizations to enhance trauma therapy. Farrell critiques the franchise-style model of EMDR training, arguing it limits scientific dialogue. He also addresses the challenges of integrating EMDR in academic programs, and how the forthcoming Oxford Handbook of EMDR aims to establish a stronger evidence base for effective practices.

24 snips
Mar 27, 2025 • 52min
What if EMDR Was a Truly Somatic Therapy?
Explore the transformative potential of EMDR therapy by centering somatic practices as foundational to healing. The conversation reflects on a successful training experience, underscoring the importance of human connection and flexibility in teaching. Delve into the intricate ties between depression, bodily sensations, and emotional expression. The speakers challenge conventional views on nervous system regulation, advocating for genuine engagement with emotions. Discover insights on affect phobia and the necessity of ongoing education for therapists.

Mar 6, 2025 • 48min
Beyond Protocol: EMDR, Case Conceptualization, and the Power of Shared Language
Jennifer Weller-White, a licensed social worker focused on the LGBTQ+ community, and Nicole Deems, a marriage and family therapist specializing in couples and adolescents, dive into the transformative power of EMDR therapy. They discuss how case conceptualization extends beyond treatment planning to influence both client healing and therapist growth. The importance of shared language and communication in therapeutic relationships is highlighted, showcasing strategies that foster trust and collaboration. Their insights connect emotional and professional journeys, illuminating pathways for community engagement in therapy.

Feb 14, 2025 • 1h 4min
Somatic Experiencing and EMDR: Interview with Amanda Johnson and Rachel Cagle
Amanda Johnson, LCSW, and Rachel Cagle, LPC, are trauma therapy experts specializing in blending EMDR and Somatic Experiencing. They dive into the unique integration of these modalities, sharing their personal journeys and the transformative experiences they've encountered. The conversation explores the challenges and nuances of merging structured and fluid approaches, the importance of body awareness, and the healing potential that arises from fully experiencing physical sensations. They emphasize the role of holistic understanding in enhancing client outcomes.

Feb 6, 2025 • 1h 3min
EMDR with Kids: Interview with Christine Mark-Griffin
Listen in to hear Jen and Bridger sit down with Kristine Mark-Griffin for a discussion on working with children using EMDR. Christine is the founder of EMDR for Kids. She is an EMDRIA approved Consultant & advanced trainer. She is the author of the award winning EMDR Workbook for Kids and is the lead trainer at EMDR for Kids. Christine’s professional experience has included working in non-profit, child welfare, juvenile justice, community mental health, school-based mental health and higher education settings. Working in these various settings over the years has deepened her knowledge and understanding of complex trauma but has also exposed her to some of the most beautiful stories of healing and resilience. Christine is also a perinatal mental health certified therapist and loves working with expecting and new mamas! She provides a variety of EMDR consultation services & training and welcomes EMDR clinicians to join her offerings below! If you are a therapist who is interested in working towards EMDR certification or becoming a Consultant-in-training (CIT) with Christine, please complete the All EMDR therapists are welcome to join monthly drop-in EMDR consultation groups. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Feb 6, 2025 • 43min
Beyond Is Evolving!: Shifts and Refocusing
Join the lively discussion as the hosts share their journey of authenticity and personal growth at Beyond Healing. They navigate significant organizational changes while emphasizing trust in evolving relationships. Discover how embodiment fosters emotional connections and learn about an upcoming workshop. The conversation also explores the Enneagram for personal identity insights and discusses the potential of human connection beyond traditional therapy. Dive into their reflections and future ideas that promise to inspire and transform!