In the Shadows of Utopia: The Khmer Rouge and the Cambodian Nightmare

This episode is a follow-up to the two-hour discussion I had with historian Henri Locard. The video of that full conversation is available for free on Patreon right here (or just go to https://www.patreon.com/shadowsofutopia) - no sign up required. Henri Locard is a prominent scholar of the Khmer Rouge, he testified as an expert witness at the ECCC, and has written extensively on the subject. Most notably Pol Pot's Little Red Book, a collection of the slogans used by the Khmer Rouge, and most recently, Jungle Heart of the Khmer Rouge, a biography of Phi Phuon, Pol Pot's Jarai bodyguard. He also has an upcoming book about the extent of the Khmer Rouge prison system that he is looking to find a publisher for. Unlike last time, in our 'discussion', the focus is tighter. I ask Henri four main questions, particularly the ones that we hadn't got to last time, and while he still drifts a little in his answers (as he does), this is a more concentrated exchange that digs deep into how he sees Cambodia’s past and present. We talk about the meaning of the “Super Great Leap Forward,” the myths of the so-called “hydraulic city” and how they shaped Khmer Rouge policy, the true extent of the regime’s prison system (which Henri argues was more than three times what the ECCC has documented), and finally, what he believes is the single best book written about the Khmer Rouge. Henri has a habit of challenging accepted ideas about Cambodian history, but not in the revisionist way of minimizing the regime’s crimes. He re-examines long-held assumptions, particularly about just how widespread the brutality of the Khmer Rouge was. What makes his perspective powerful is his deep, lived connection to the country, and his long study of how the Khmer Rouge prison network worked.  And as you’ll hear, the conversation begins in one place, loops back around, and then veers in an unexpected direction by the end.

You've seen The Killing Fields, you probably know that Haing Ngor, who played Dith Pran in the film won an oscar. You might also know that he was murdered in Los Angeles. But the version of that story you've known for years... isn't true. Patricia Nunan, or MP, is a veteran journalist who has worked for a variety of well regarded institutions. She is now tackling the murder of Haing Ngo - completely challenging the narrative that I had assumed was completely sorted since the late 90's. I urge you to subsribe to Who Killed Haing Ngor -  Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1tKU5RgGYYrw71iGj7Q9s4 Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/who-killed-haing-ngor/id1674928262 Website: https://www.whokilledhaingngor.com/ Instagram: who_killed_haing_ngor

This is an episode that could be listened to if you’d like, or if you’d prefer to watch it (without ads!) then head to https://patreon.com/shadowsofutopia and watch it for free, no sign ups, no obligations. It's a nice pleasant video, and just one click away. In this bonus episode, I sit down to go through and explain an interview I recently conducted with an ex-Khmer Rouge doctor, who we will refer to as ‘uncle’.  He lived through the events that we have been covering so extensively in the last few episodes of the podcast, the start of the war, Sihanouk’s call for his people to join the resistance against Lon Nol, the Vietnamese communists fighting in Cambodia, and training to become a Khmer Rouge doctor in their primary hospital during the civil war - and then going on to be become a surgeon in Phnom Penh during the regime’s time in power. While he obviously has certain biases, and beliefs, about what the Khmer Rouge were, what went wrong, and why… This is still a fascinating piece of history to contend with. Hearing from the Khmer Rouge themselves about what they felt they were trying to accomplish, as well as his own thoughts about communism, and that he felt that nothing was going wrong in the country - until 1977. He did not blame Pol Pot, but, like many Khmer Rouge, he instead blamed ‘factions’, bad actors, saboteurs, and those who were colluding with the Vietnamese. We get a very one sided view of the story here, and I put it into context for you, and challenge the views that this Khmer Rouge doctor had come to believe about their war, their time in power, and who was really responsible for what happened. I must extend a deep gratitude to Chhay Lim, who organised this trip, and organised contacts for me to be able to speak with. 

In this bonus podcast episode, I’ve invited veteran journalist Jim Laurie to reflect on a lifetime spent amid global upheaval. From the Nixon incursion into Cambodia to the oblivious tranquility of Phnom Penh before war erupted—Laurie shares his remarkable memories, including a poignant love story with a local woman, a comparison between the wars in Saigon and Cambodia, and the shock of revisiting Cambodia in 1979 to find destruction everywhere. This episode is enhanced by visuals, including archival footage, that bring his narrative powerfully to life. If you have the opportunity to watch on YouTube, you’ll gain an even richer experience. Watch it at https://youtu.be/hBSejgATaB8

What was the political fallout from Lon Nol's Stroke? How did race and religion become such a key theme of his regime? What led to the worst military defeat of the Cambodian Civil War? Time Period Covered: March - December 1971 In this episode, Lon Nol returns to Cambodia after recoving from a mild stroke in Hawaii. While many hoped he might step aside, and that the US might provoke a change in leadership, Lon Nol remained in power. His little brother's influence grew, and his obsession with race and religion became even more pronounced. Amongst the Vietnam War playing out on Cambodian land, the carnage of American bombs became a regular occurrence. Meanwhile, politics in Phnom Penh leaned toward a military dictatorship. By the end of the year, the Khmer Republic had to face its worst military defeat, one that it would not recover from. Check out www.shadowsofutopia.com/episodes/ for maps and diagrams Sources: Wilfred Deac The Road to the Killing Fields Craig Etcheson The Rise and Demise of Democratic Kampuchea Sat Sutsakhan The Khmer Republic at War Elizabeth Becker When The War Was Over David Chandler The Tragedy of Cambodian History Henry Kamm Report From a Stricken Land

In this episode, I talk with journalist and author Sebastian Strangio about the border tensions between Cambodia and Thailand that have escalated in July 2025. Sebastian is the Southeast Asia editor at The Diplomat and one of the region’s leading journalists. He’s a former reporter at the Phnom Penh Post, and the author of Hun Sen’s Cambodia (re-released as Cambodia: From Pol Pot to Hun Sen and Beyond) and In the Dragon’s Shadow, a study of China’s growing influence in Southeast Asia.  We start with the political figure who has shaped Cambodia for decades, Hun Sen, and trace how his rise from Khmer Rouge defector to Prime Minister led to the creation of a powerful political dynasty. We then look at the handover of power to his son, Hun Manet, and what that has meant for Cambodian politics in the last two years.  From there, we shift focus to Thailand and explore the structure of Thai politics today. Who holds power? How have coups and party shifts shaped its modern system? And how does that compare to Cambodia’s more centralized model? This helps us understand one of the key triggers of the current crisis: a leaked phone call between Hun Sen and former Thai Prime Minister Paetongtarn Shinawatra.  We then move into the border dispute itself. We look at the long history of territorial claims, colonial-era maps, and temple flashpoints like Preah Vihear and Ta Moan. And we ask how this latest confrontation fits into broader patterns of nationalism, political theatre, and regional rivalry. Finally, we explore what role public opinion and media narratives are playing on both sides of the border. 

Hello everyone, I've put together a quick look at the long history of the Thai Cambodia border dispute to compliment what I'm sure many of you are reading and watching in newspapers and on television. The escalation is far from good, and I hope it simmers down back to - as I'll discuss - a normal state of not-quite-peaceful. I cover the history from 900 CE to 2025, and everything from the 1794 retrocession of Battambang, the Franco-Thai War, Sihanouks ICJ case in 1962, Khmer Rouge border clashes and spies, to the more recent disputes about Preah Vihear. Much of this is based off of a recent bonus episode I made for Patreon, so for those that have listened to that, apologies for some of the overlap. www.shadowsofutopia.com/support 

How did the Khmer Republic try to take back control of Cambodia? Time Period Covered: June 1970 - January 1971 In this episode, we follow the Lon Nol government as it attempts to prove that the Khmer Republic can fight and win.  After the initial chaos of the coup and the brief U.S. incursion, Cambodia’s leaders launch their first large-scale offensive: Operation Chenla I. We look at how the Cambodians, with American and South Vietnamese support, attempt to open Route 6, retake lost territory, and secure the Lon Nol strategy. Please see this link for Chenla Offensive Visuals and Maps: https://www.shadowsofutopia.com/episodes/the-khmer-republic-chenla-one Sources: Wilfred Deac The Road to the Killing Fields Craig Etcheson The Rise and Demise of Democratic Kampuchea Sat Sutsakhan The Khmer Republic at War Various New York Times Articles June 1970 CBS News September 4 1970 Ros Sereysothea (song) David Chandler The Tragedy of Cambodian History Henry Kamm Report From a Stricken Land Haing Ngor Surival in the Killing Fields Presidential Briefings 1970 (CIA reading room) Lon Nol - Nixon Correspondance (Office of the Historian)

Why was Duch released from prison on April 3rd, 1970? How did Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge transition from small guerrilla enclaves to administering huge areas of Cambodia? What exactly was “Independence Mastery,” and why was it so central to the Khmer Rouge mindset?  Time Period Covered: April 1970 – July 1971  In this episode, we pivot from Lon Nol’s takeover to the Cambodian communist perspective, exploring how Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge navigated the chaotic months following the coup. We follow Duch’s unexpected release from prison, track Pol Pot’s return journey from Beijing and Hanoi, and see how the Khmer Rouge began absorbing millions of Cambodians into so-called “liberated zones.” Along the way, we delve into the principle of Independence Mastery, the uneasy alliance with the Vietnamese, and the early precursor to S-21 known as M-13. We also uncover the paranoid mindset driving the Khmer Rouge’s suspicion of outside influence, including alleged assassination plots and forced confessions, shadows of the horror to come.  Remember, if you can, to please support the show at www.shadowsofutopia.com/support.  Sources: Chandler - Tragedy of Cambodian History and Voices From S21 Short - Pol Pot Kiernan - How Pol Pot Came To Power ECCC Archives - Duch Trial 2009 Heder - Cambodian Communism and the Vietnamese Model Edwards - Cambodge Harris - Buddhism Under Pol Pot

Why did Nixon invade Cambodia in May 1970? What impact did the 'Cambodian Incursion' have on the war in Vietnam? How did this effect Cambodia? Time Period Covered: May - June 1970 In part two of our discussion about the situation in Cambodia after the coup which pushed Sihanouk from power, we see how the Nixon Whitehouse responded to the crisis facing Cambodia. Lachlan asks whether the decision that Nixon and Kissinger made was the right one, or whether there was a correct answer. We look at the circumstances which brought about the decision, what options were on the table, and the impact that Nixon's speech which announced the 'incursion' had. Then we look at the 'Cambodia Campaign' itself, discussing the fighting which overtakes much of the country, and the outcomes this had in the short, and long term. Remember, if you can, to please support the show at www.shadowsofutopia.com/support Sources: Chandler “Tragedy of Cambodian History” Short “Pol Pot” Shawcross “Sideshow” Kamm “Report from a Stricken Land” Sak Satsukhan “The Khmer Republic at War” Wilfred Deac “Road to the Killing Fields” Walter Isaacson “Kissinger” Kiernan “How Pol Pot Came to Power” Etcheson “Rise and Demise of Democratic Kampuchea” James Sterba "G.I's in Cambodia" (New York Times)