Deep Transformation

Ep. 79 (Part 1 of 2) | Connie Zweig, award-winning author, depth psychologist, master shadow guide, and longtime contemplative practitioner asks some good questions—and answers them too, with unusual clarity and deep insight born of long experience and a cutting-edge mind. Why is it that we meet darkness on the spiritual path? What do we banish into the shadow? How do we reclaim what we project onto charismatic leaders? Learning to recognize and resolve the shadow is a powerful practice, and one that is all too often overlooked in a time when psychology is focused on objective approaches, neglecting the fact and force of the unconscious. Cultivating shadow awareness, we can begin to look beyond projections and stereotypes, recognize the risks of black and white thinking, and learn how to reclaim what Carl Jung called the “unlived life.” Connie discusses the psychodynamics between spiritual student and spiritual teacher, and other situations where people have disproportionate power over others, shining a bright light of illumination on the nuances and complexities of these relationships.This is an intimate look into the challenges of the spiritual path, where we need both psychological practice and spiritual practice to advance our awakening, and a very relevant, timely conversation with shadow currently erupting in our culture in epidemic proportions. Connie’s dedication to helping people find their way through the dark nights we inevitably experience on our spiritual journey comes through strong and clear. Her authenticity, caring, and wisdom is palpable, inspiring us as to how the lights really go on when we start to see the dynamics of our inner world and relationships with more nuance, deeper insight, and shadow awareness. Recorded April 5, 2023.“When you meet the shadow, it means something else is required of you.”(For Apple Podcast users, click here to view the complete show notes on the episode page.)Topics & Time Stamps – Part 1Introducing depth psychologist, illuminator of the shadow, and award-winning author Connie Zweig (01:17)What brought Connie to the subject of shadow: exploring the psychology of spiritual yearning (02:10)Why is it that we meet darkness on the spiritual path? (05:18)What Carl Jung meant when he used the term shadow (06:45)The negative traits (and our unlived gifts) that are in the shadow are always in relation to the ego (08:02)Why don’t we recognize the shadow? By definition, the shadow is hidden, unacceptable—locked in both body & mind (10:03)The shadow has erupted in our culture, but it’s not so apparent in the spiritual arena (12:43)Psychodynamics & psychological defense mechanisms: projection, repression & denial are not recognized in the wisdom traditions (16:44)Dreamwork is a way to begin exploring the unconscious (19:19)How does developmental psychology fit in? Self-observation is the beginning, turning inward (20:13)Connie’s book is a call for spiritual awakening, deepening practice, and also shadow awareness (22:45)Shadow awareness includes recognizing our projections—both negative and spiritually bright (24:37)What is it in us that wants to make the human divine? Projection and the psychodynamics of our relationship to spiritual leaders (26:08)Archetypal projection: attributing godlike power to leaders (28:36)How does it feel to have large numbers of people projecting perfection on you? (29:21)Narcissism, secrecy, and spiritual bypassing in spiritual communities (32:03)What leads a spiritual community to become cult-like, where people lose their critical thinking? (37:48)The practice of guru worship, idealization, or visualizing inner gods and goddesses (43:00)Cultivating shadow awareness in spiritual contexts (45:56)Taking the risk of stepping into liminality and uncertainty, trusting life (50:06)Follow the yearning beyond the ego self while also remembering to be aware there will be dark nights on the journey: when you meet the shadow, it means something else is required of you (52:58)Resources & References – Part 1Connie Zweig, Meeting the Shadow on the Spiritual Path: The Dance of Darkness and Light in Our Search for Awakening*Connie Zweig, A Moth to the Flame: The Story of the Great Sufi Poet Rumi*Johann Wolfgang von Goethe’s poem The Holy Longing (translated by Robert Bly)Connie Zweig, The Holy Longing: The Hidden Power of Spiritual Yearning*Connie Zweig, Romancing the Shadow: A Guide to Soul Work for a Vital, Authentic Life*Connie Zweig, The Inner Work of Age: Shifting from Role to Soul*See also Deep Transformation episode #19, Connie Zweig –The World Needs Elders: How Inner Work Transforms Aging into a Developmental Process, a Life Culmination, and a Gift*Connie Zweig & Jeremiah Abrams, editors, Meeting the Shadow: The Hidden Power of the Dark Side of Human Nature*Carl Jung, “The Relationship Between the Ego and Unconscious” in The Archetypes and The Collective Unconscious (Collected Works of C.G. Jung Vol. 9 Part 1)*, Aion: Researches into the Phenomenology of the Self (Collected Works of C.G. Jung Vol. 9 Part 2)*Sigmund Freud, On Murder, Mourning, and Melancholia*The #MeToo movementDefense Mechanisms in Psychology Explained (+ Examples) (Positive Psychology.org)Ken Wilber, “shadow material in every chakra,” The Religion of Tomorrow: A Vision for the Future of the Great Traditions*Dick Anthony, Bruce Ecker & Ken Wilber, Spiritual Choices: The Problem of Recognizing Paths to Inner Transformation*A.H. Almaas, creator of The Diamond Approach, see also Deep Transformation episode #43, Nonduality and Beyond: The Exhilarating Adventure of Discovering the Nature of Reality (or watch on YouTube)Keith Raniere, the NXIVM guyMarilyn Ferguson, The Aquarian Conspiracy: Personal and Social Transformation in Our Time*Connie’s blogs on Medium: https://medium.com/@conniezweigConnie’s website: conniezweig.com, Linked In: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drconniezweig/, Twitter: https://twitter.com/ReinventingAge, Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Dr.ConnieZweig/, YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLdvX4rtyOC4SA75JU98qaA?view_as=subscriber* As an Amazon Associate, Deep Transformation earns from qualifying purchases.---Connie Zweig, Ph.D. is a retired therapist and co-author of Meeting the Shadow and Romancing the Shadow. Her award-winning book, The Inner Work of Age: Shifting from Role to Soul, extends her work on the Shadow into midlife and beyond and explores aging as a spiritual practice. It won the 2022 Gold COVR Award, the 2022 Gold Nautilus Award, the 2021 American Book Fest Award, and the 2021 Best Indie Book Award for best inspirational non-fiction. Her new book, Meeting the Shadow on the Spiritual Path: The Dance of Darkness and Light in Our Search for Awakening, will be available in May 2023. Connie has been doing contemplative practices for more than 50 years. She is a wife, stepmother, and grandmother. After all these roles, she’s practicing the shift from role to soul.---Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell

Ep. 78 (Part 2 of 2) | Greg Thomas, brilliant cultural analyst, educator, musician, speaker, and co-founder of the Jazz Leadership Project, is passionate about the power of culture to transform us as individuals and collectively. Where race is concerned, Greg presents an illuminating, multiperspectival view of the many layered issues around racism in this country. Early on, Greg developed a systemic perspective on how everything fits together, and realized that the issues that plague us are not just about race or racism, but the overarching systemic racial worldview. Greg offers that the way out of this morass lies in adopting a cultural lens to replace the racial lens. And Greg points out that when we further embrace a cultural worldview in a participatory way, it opens up all the doors and windows: creating room for individuals to shine, for groups to experience group flow, for all of us to enjoy beauty and appreciation—the way soloist, band, and audience come together in a shared musical experience. When Greg talks about the power of culture, sharing illustrative anecdotes about blues masters, blues philosophy, and great moments in jazz history, it becomes clear just how effective culture is at dissolving boundaries and heightening connection, and how music (in this case) allows us to transcend our differences, our daily burdens, and experience unbounded joy. This is a lively, impactful, and poignant dialogue, with wisdom ranging from the deeply spiritual, the psychological/developmental, to the political and universal. Recorded January 25, 2023.“Out of the many…one: this is the challenge, the spiritual challenge, for Americans and for humanity.”(For Apple Podcast users, click here to view the complete show notes on the episode page.)Topics & Time Stamps – Part 2Antagonistic cooperation: competition is part of the American, democratic experience, but there are ways it can be a cooperative competition, e.g. cutting contests in jazz, cypher in hip hop (01:30)Where individuality and the group flow dynamic come together: jazz and the ring shout tradition (04:34)Entropy, consciousness, and culture: the tragic dimension and the comic perspective (05:33)The power of culture: pushing people towards excellence, orienting towards self-actualization, and the Greek notion of arete (06:57)How do we get to arete? The importance of striving for and developing both mastery and wisdom (11:11)The tension between virtues like liberty and equality (15:27)The healing power of music: Art Pepper & Sonny Stitt’s cutting contest (18:00)Stomping the blues and how music merges secular & sacred, reminds us of our range of human feelings, gives resonance to memory, and brings healing and transcendence (21:11)Music affirms the gift of life: moments of utopia allow us to transcend our everyday cares (25:00)The role of creativity, the arts & humanities, is crucial in getting through the meaning crisis and the metacrisis (28:53)Cultural forms and ideas can be picked up at any time and reinvigorated: bringing back the wisdom (29:52)If there are enough of us who can model what it takes to be in flow together, despite our differences, we could tap into higher dimensions of human possibility (32:52)The blues idiom wisdom tradition, great orators Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. & Frederick Douglass, and the embodiment of American democratic ideals (33:36)Striving to achieve the realization of democratic ideals in a multiracial democracy—it’s never been done before (38:34)The fundamental contradiction of being a slave owner in a country based on the principle of liberty (41:30)Ultimately neither slave owner or slave is psychologically and spiritually free in a slave society (42:20)Resources & References – Part 2Joseph Campbell, The Hero’s Journey*Sterling Stuckey, Slave Culture*Albert Murray, blues philosopher, Reading Albert Murray in the Age of Uncertainty (Tune in to Leadership blog)Ring shout, an ecstatic, transcendent religious ritual, first practiced by African slaves Institute for Cultural Evolution, think tank with the mission of advancing the evolution of consciousness & culture in AmericaGreg Thomas’ Omni-American Future ProjectArete, Greek expression for the notion of excellence, ultimately bound up with the notion of the fulfillment of purpose, the act of living up to one’s full potentialRobert Greene, Mastery*John Vervaeke, Awakening from the Meaning Crisis (YouTube video)Duke Ellington, one of the greatest jazz composers of all time, who viewed music as a form of activismSteve McIntosh, Developmental Politics*Jimi Hendrix, master of the blues, master guitar player, singer/songwriterArt Pepper & Sonny Stitt, West Coast Sessions! Volume 1*Charlie Parker, one of the top jazz improvisers in American history, Ko-Ko [1945]Albert Murray, Stomping the Blues*Christopher Small, Musicking: The Meanings of Performing and Listening*John Vervaeke, After Socrates (YouTube video)James Carse, Finite and Infinite Games*Plato, The Dialogues of Socrates*Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., beloved Nobel Peace Prize-winning orator and leader of the Civil Rights MovementFrederick Douglass, one of the greatest orators and statesmen of the 19th centuryThomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, founding fathers and signers of the Declaration of IndependenceDanielle Allen, Justice by Means of Democracy*Greg Thomas, CEO of the Jazz Leadership Project, a private company that uses jazz music as a model to enhance leadership success and team excellenceTune in to Leadership blog (powered by the Jazz Leadership Project)The Omni-American Future Project, fighting against bigotry and anti-semitism through cultural, moral, spiritual excellence* As an Amazon Associate, Deep Transformation earns from qualifying purchases.---Greg Thomas is CEO of the Jazz Leadership Project, a private company that uses jazz music as a model to enhance leadership success and team excellence. Along with his wife and partner Jewel, the Jazz Leadership Project works with notable firms such as JPMorgan Chase, Verizon, TD Bank, and Google. The leadership blog TuneIntoLeadership.com features their writings. Greg has been a professional journalist for over 25 years. He is currently a Senior Fellow of the Institute for Cultural Evolution. As an educator, Greg recently taught a course, “Cultural Intelligence: Transcending Race, Embracing Cosmos,” and co-facilitated a six-month class in 2022, titled “Stepping Up: Wrestling with America’s Past, Reimagining Its Future, Healing Together.”As Co-Director of the Omni-American Future Project, Greg co-produced a two-day broadcast and awards ceremony, “Combating Racism and Antisemitism Together: Shaping an Omni-American Future” in October 2021 and the second annual event in November 2022, “Straight Ahead: An Omni-American Future, Fighting Bigotry Together.” In September 2022, Greg co-facilitated a one-day conference, “Resolving the Race-ism Dilemma.” He also serves on the advisory boards of The Consilience Project, and FAIR, the Foundation Against Intolerance and Racism. ---Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell

Ep. 77 (Part 1 of 2) | Greg Thomas, brilliant cultural analyst, educator, musician, speaker, and co-founder of the Jazz Leadership Project, is passionate about the power of culture to transform us as individuals and collectively. Where race is concerned, Greg presents an illuminating, multiperspectival view of the many layered issues around racism in this country. Early on, Greg developed a systemic perspective on how everything fits together, and realized that the issues that plague us are not just about race or racism, but the overarching systemic racial worldview. Greg offers that the way out of this morass lies in adopting a cultural lens to replace the racial lens. And Greg points out that when we further embrace a cultural worldview in a participatory way, it opens up all the doors and windows: creating room for individuals to shine, for groups to experience group flow, for all of us to enjoy beauty and appreciation—the way soloist, band, and audience come together in a shared musical experience. When Greg talks about the power of culture, sharing anecdotes about blues masters, blues philosophy, and great moments in jazz history, it becomes clear just how effective culture is at dissolving boundaries and heightening connection, and how music (in this case) allows us to transcend our differences, our daily burdens, and experience unbounded joy. This is a lively, impactful, and poignant dialogue, with wisdom ranging from the deeply spiritual, the psychological/developmental, to the political and universal. Recorded January 25, 2023.“Out of the many…one: this is the challenge, the spiritual challenge, for Americans and for humanity.”(For Apple Podcast users, click here to view the complete show notes on the episode page.)Topics & Time Stamps – Part 1Introducing Greg Thomas, jazz & blues scholar, musician, educator, and cultural sage (01:02)The blues speaks to everyone: as the Buddha said, life is suffering (03:04)The experience of Black Americans and their relationship with absurdity (05:07)Cultural appropriation is a misunderstanding of the way culture works: the difference between plagiarism and cultural appropriation (06:42)Flourishing happens when different ideas and cultures come together (09:05)Recognizing the fundamental tributary that the Black American experience and culture is to American history and American culture: using a cultural lens instead of a racial one (13:46)Greg Thomas’ spiritual journey: integrating traditionalism, modernism, postmodernism, Integral Theory, a pre-traditional experience, and studying African syncretism, Taoism, Kabbalah, and more (17:38)How Greg developed a systemic perspective on how everything fits together, the blues wisdom tradition, and the 4th zone of the Integral Map (22:21)Dealing with the range and depth of the wicked problems we have today is ultimately going to take wisdom (25:37)How indigenous wisdom was lost during the Age of Enlightenment and the challenge of the Integral movement to provide a framework for integration (26:08)One of our fundamental problems stems from the notion that we are separate from nature, separate from the divine (29:24)Out of the many…one: this is the challenge, the spiritual challenge, for Americans and for humanity (32:22)Is ethnocentricity (and therefore racism) a natural part of the evolutionary ladder? (35:54)The concept of rooted cosmopolitanism (40:15)Ken Wilber’s “dignities and disasters” of modernity (45:20)Beyond ethnocentrism and how each stage has its traps: one trap is the denial of any differences between races, which isn’t right either (47:21)Deracialization and the fundamental concept of our identity: making sense of the complex terms race and identity (50:06)It’s not just about race or racism, but the overarching systemic racial worldview (53:57)Perspectival and participatory knowing are crucial, so we can engage with one another and develop skills of interaction (56:09)The swing era of the 1930s, stomping the blues, and group flow (58:29)Resources & References – Part 1Greg Thomas, CEO of the Jazz Leadership Project, a private company that uses jazz music as a model to enhance leadership success and team excellenceTune in to Leadership blog (powered by the Jazz Leadership Project)The Omni-American Future Project, fighting against bigotry and anti-semitism through cultural, moral, spiritual excellenceRalph Ellison, Invisible Man*, The Collected Essays of Ralph Ellison*Albert Murray, blues philosopher, Murray Talks Music*, The Hero and the Blues*, Stomping the Blues*, The Omni-Americans: Some Alternatives to the Folklore of White Supremacy*Ralph Ellison & Albert Murray, Trading Twelves: The Selected Letters of Ralph Ellison and Albert Murray*The Glenn Show (Glenn Loury), Debating Deracialization with Glenn Loury, Greg Thomas and John McWhorterWhat’s the Future (WTF) and What Can We Do About It? Integral ConferenceKen Wilber’s Four Quadrants (Integral Life’s What Are the Four Quadrants?)Ken Wilber, A Brief History of Everything*Religion in Africa, Syncretism Kabbalah’s Tree of LifeThe 8 zones of the Integral Map (Integral Life’s The 8 Perspectival Zones of Emergence)The Age of EnlightenmentKen Wilber on The Pre/Trans Fallacy (Integral Life)John Vervaeke, award-winning lecturer on subjects like Awakening from the Meaning CrisisRick Tarnas, The Passion of the Western Mind*Aesop’s fable The North Wind and the SunIntegral Spirituality series course A Deeper CutSpiral Dynamics, a model of evolutionary developmentKwame Anthony Appiah, Cosmopolitanism: Ethics in a World of Strangers*, The Lies That Bind: Rethinking Identity*Danielle Allen, Justice by Means of Democracy*Henry Murray’s system of needsConfucious’ rectification of namesGreg Thomas, Considering Deracialization, first published in the Institute for Cultural Evolution’s journal The Developmentalist Steve McIntosh, director & co-founder, Institute for Cultural Evolution, author, Developmental Politics* (see also Deep Transformation podcast episode 20, Consciousness Evolves, Politics Can Too)Greg Thomas, Deracialization Now: A Response to Glenn Loury & Clifton Roscoe, published at Tune into Leadership.com, Greg’s Jazz Leadership Project blog, and also at Free Black ThoughtJohn Vervaeke, cognitive scientist, philosopher, psychologist, new YouTube series After SocratesJack Kerouac, On the Road** As an Amazon Associate, Deep Transformation earns from qualifying purchases.---Greg Thomas is CEO of the Jazz Leadership Project, a private company that uses jazz music as a model to enhance leadership success and team excellence. Along with his wife and partner Jewel, the Jazz Leadership Project works with notable firms such as JPMorgan Chase, Verizon, TD Bank, and Google. The leadership blog TuneIntoLeadership.com features their writings. Greg has been a professional journalist for over 25 years. He is currently a Senior Fellow of the Institute for Cultural Evolution. As an educator, Greg recently taught a course, “Cultural Intelligence: Transcending Race, Embracing Cosmos,” and co-facilitated a six-month class in 2022, titled “Stepping Up: Wrestling with America’s Past, Reimagining Its Future, Healing Together.”As Co-Director of the Omni-American Future Project, Greg co-produced a two-day broadcast and awards ceremony, “Combating Racism and Antisemitism Together: Shaping an Omni-American Future” in October 2021 and the second annual event in November 2022, “Straight Ahead: An Omni-American Future, Fighting Bigotry Together.” In September 2022, Greg co-facilitated a one-day conference, “Resolving the Race-ism Dilemma.” He also serves on the advisory boards of The Consilience Project, and FAIR, the Foundation Against Intolerance and Racism. ---Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell

Ep. 76 (Part 2 of 2) | Enneagram expert, teacher, master facilitator, and transformational coach Leslie Hershberger leads us into the world of the Enneagram, not typology point by point—here Leslie paints a broader, deeper picture of the Enneagram and its uses as a psycho-spiritual tool than is commonly understood. Leslie explains how the Enneagram provides the psychological foundation for each individual to navigate their inner world more skillfully. A wealth of knowledge comes with recognizing the center you orient from—head, heart, or body—and your type’s tendencies, freeing up energy within us to move out of negative patterns into virtuous ones. With the insights the Enneagram provides, we can develop practices tailored to our specific personality structure that help with everyday challenges and vicissitudes, with being more present in our relationships, and with opening to spiritual presence.Listening to Leslie, one feels the energy of rising awareness as her anecdotes about various different Enneagram types’ ways of relating to themselves, others, and the world ring decisively true, matching our own experience. Leslie’s passion for guiding people who are ready to make “the inward turn” in using the Enneagram as a map is clearly palpable. And though she is a longtime contemplative, Leslie is all about boots-on-the-ground action: meeting people where they are at, providing support and guidance, and reflecting back to all whom she encounters a truly awe-inspiring, Enneagram-informed, and integral understanding. Recorded January 9, 2023.Please enjoy a 20-minute guided meditation, led by Leslie, at the end of part 2 of this podcast. Leslie originally led this meditation for Roger, John, and the Deep Transformation team right before the podcast was recorded, so they could experience her Enneagram-informed techniques that help us ground, center, and connect with our inner being, somatically and emotionally.“The Enneagram is a vehicle for spiritual presence—for spiritual experience.”(For Apple Podcast users, click here to view the complete show notes on the episode page.)Topics & Time Stamps – Part 2Truth decay: when insights decay into dogma, practices devolve into ritual (01:34)Leslie’s disappointment with the dilution of the value of the Enneagram in popular culture and the common tendency to over identify with one’s type (05:39)Building in practices for making the inward turn when our type gets triggered (07:34)How everyone interprets the Enneagram according to their stage of development: language matters (09:58)How knowledge of the 3 centers (head, heart, body) enables us to understand different perspectives and be more present with others (13:23)Recommended books for people new to the Enneagram: The Complete Enneagram by Dr. Beatrice Chestnut, The Essential Enneagram by Dr. David Daniels, and more (see resources below) (16:39)Is there any research on the Enneagram? (18:06)Looking at the Enneagram from the centers perspective is a good portal of entry, and the differences between heart, head, and body types (19:23)Back to research: more research could refine the value of the Enneagram (25:00)Working with your core vice within a contemplative practice is when things really start to cook (33:48)How does your type change over time with an ongoing contemplative practice? The challenge of embodying a healthy type structure 24/7 (36:02)The reality is we all have limits (38:27)The importance of understanding the centers approach to the Enneagram and understanding that our psychological structure is housed in the body (47:12)What do women want from men? A heart connection and kindness (49:21)20-minute guided meditation led by Leslie to help us ground, center, and connect with our inner being, somatically and emotionally (55:56)Resources & References – Part 2Spotlight, 2015 film following the Boston Globe’s investigation into the pedophilia crisis in the Catholic churchKen Wilber’s Altitudes of Development on the Daily Evolver websiteMuhammad: “Speak to people only according to their level of knowledge…”Beatrice Chestnut, The Complete Enneagram* (Leslie’s recommendation for a good comprehensive overview of the Enneagram, looking at the Enneagram through an archetypal lens)David Daniels, The Essential Enneagram* (Leslie’s recommended book for understanding the structure of the types)Ginger Lapid-Bogda, Bringing Out the Best in Yourself at Work* (Leslie’s recommendation for applying the Enneagram’s wisdom in the workplace) David Daniels, Terry Saracino, Meghan Fraley, Jennifer Christian & Seth Pardo, “Advancing Ego Development in Adulthood through Study of the Enneagram System of Personality”Ginger Lapid-Bogda, PhD, Enneagram author, teacher, keynote speaker, and organization development consultant, trainer, and coachSandra Maitri, The Spiritual Dimension of the Enneagram: Nine Faces of the Soul* (Leslie’s recommendation around the spiritual dimension of the Enneagram)Helen Palmer, The Enneagram: Understanding Yourself and the Others in Your Life*Scared straight! therapy and the Barnum effect Michel (Roland) Gauquelin,  A Killer HoroscopeDr. David Daniels, co-founder of The Narrative Enneagram training school Ken Wilber, The Marriage of Sense and Soul*Jack Killen, David Daniels & Kristin Arthur, “Biology and Personal Transformation: Bridging Science and the Enneagram” (informed also by the work of Dan Siegel)Jack Killen, Toward the Neurobiology of the EnneagramThe International Enneagram Association Benedictine nun Suzanne Zuercher, Enneagram Spirituality: From Compulsion to Contemplation*Rachel Naomi Remen, My Grandfather’s Blessings: Stories of Strength, Refuge, and Belonging*Aldous Huxley, Island* and The Perennial Philosophy*Leslie Hershberger.com: Transformational Consulting, Facilitation, CoachingLeslie’s course Foundations of the Enneagram: The Centers Approach, a self-paced course and online space to learn the Enneagram in all 3 centers: head, heart, bodyLeslie’s YouTube channelRecommended typing test: https://www.narrativeenneagram.org/enneagram-test/#test-section* As an Amazon Associate, Deep Transformation earns from qualifying purchases.---Teacher, theologian, spiritual guide, and master facilitator, Leslie Hershberger is the founder of The Three-Centered Enneagram, and offers both corporate and contemplative workshops, retreats, and keynotes throughout the U.S. and in Europe. She designed the online course The Foundations of the Enneagram: The Centers Approach, which is both a deep and a practical way of developing embodied emotional and social intelligence. Leslie integrates the Enneagram, three-centered contemplative practice, and Integral Theory in her work.Leslie’s core mission is facilitating practice based in all 3 centers: head, heart, and body. She supports others in integrating psychological awareness and opening to wise, embodied spiritual Presence, especially during times of significant transition: social change, religious transition, second half of life, changing bodies, illness, grief, loss and the inevitable relationship challenges with those we care about most. She also supports many “post-church” pastors and people who have experienced a religious deconstruction and are looking for a way forward. Leslie was recently honored by Xavier University with the William and Anna Madges award for distinguished contribution to society.---Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell

Ep. 75 (Part 1 of 2) | Enneagram expert, teacher, master facilitator, and transformational coach Leslie Hershberger leads us into the world of the Enneagram, not typology point by point—here Leslie paints a broader, deeper picture of the Enneagram and its uses as a psycho-spiritual tool than is commonly understood. Leslie explains how the Enneagram provides the psychological foundation for each individual to navigate their inner world more skillfully. A wealth of knowledge comes with recognizing the center you orient from—head, heart, or body—and your type’s tendencies, freeing up energy within us to move out of negative patterns into virtuous ones. With the insights the Enneagram provides, we can develop practices tailored to our specific personality structure that help with everyday challenges and vicissitudes, with being more present in our relationships, and with opening to spiritual presence.Listening to Leslie, one feels the energy of rising awareness as her anecdotes about various different Enneagram types’ ways of relating to themselves, others, and the world ring decisively true, matching our own experience. Leslie’s passion for guiding people who are ready to make “the inward turn” in using the Enneagram as a map is clearly palpable. And though she is a longtime contemplative, Leslie is all about boots-on-the-ground action: meeting people where they are at, providing support and guidance, and reflecting back to all whom she encounters a truly awe-inspiring, Enneagram-informed, and integral understanding. Recorded January 9, 2023.Please enjoy a 20-minute guided meditation, led by Leslie, at the end of part 2 of this podcast. Leslie originally led this meditation for Roger, John, and the Deep Transformation team right before the podcast was recorded, so they could experience her Enneagram-informed techniques that help us ground, center, and connect with our inner being, somatically and emotionally.“The Enneagram is a vehicle for spiritual presence—for spiritual experience.”(For Apple Podcast users, click here to view the complete show notes on the episode page.)Topics & Time Stamps – Part 1Introducing gifted Enneagram teacher, contemplative practitioner, and transformational coach Leslie Hershberger (01:10)How 1’s are driven by the inner critic and the desire to perfect themselves and others (04:11)Given our Enneagram type, we tend to contract in a certain sector of reality—this is a literal, physical contraction (05:15)The Enneagram provides a map of the 9 different tendencies of contracting against life force, against spiritual presence (08:56)Each type has a cognitive habit that sits upon the energy of an emotional habit; this energy is there for spiritual conversion (09:59)The skillful response is inherent in the awareness of the contraction (13:12)Each type has a particular defense mechanism which is the glue that holds our structure together (15:13)Anger, fear, and sadness (the 3 afflictions) are in everyone, but each of us is driven by one of these predominantly, according to our type (19:19)Where the Enneagram fits in the larger field of personality typing and how it shows up in early contemplative traditions (24:44)The Enneagram is a useful, practical, psychological typology—but it’s also a spiritual tool (26:38)The Enneagram types you from your blind spots and the places that are hard to see (28:47)The 3 instinctual subtypes: social, sexual, and self-preservation (29:52)On 6’s: doubt, projection, and amplified hazards (30:56)Teaching people their ego structure using panels of types in the narrative tradition (34:33)The importance of meditation and somatic experiencing and how the type structures are housed in the body (36:29)The vice to virtue conversion for each type: each type has a predominant vice and a predominant virtue (37:00)Our fundamental root dysfunctions give birth to wisdom—our vices contain the energy for us to transform (42:14)How Integral Theory’s teachings on higher states of consciousness and the difference between stages and states complement the teachings of the Enneagram (48:29)Illuminating the essential elements of the psychological structure: “Mysticism and spirituality are not enough…Social action and therapeutic caring are not enough…” Jacob Needleman’s teaching is foundational to Leslie’s integral approach (50:02)Finding one’s core piece of suffering, relaxing into it and giving it some space, then tasting the virtue (52:09)How Leslie discovered Buddhist meditation, the contemplative (well-hidden) arm of Catholicism, and Centering Prayer (53:15)What’s a portal for people with a real allergy to religion? The Enneagream provides a bridge for the inward turn (55:42)Resources & References – Part 1Leslie Hershberger.com: Transformational Consulting, Facilitation, CoachingLeslie’s course Foundations of the Enneagram: The Centers Approach, a self-paced course and online space to learn the Enneagram in all 3 centers: head, heart, bodyLeslie’s YouTube channelLeslie’s courses Coming Home: An Integral Christian Practicum and Between You and Love: An Enneagram Course, hosted on Integral LifeIntegral Enneagram web course Patterns of Being, co-facilitated with Helen Palmer, also hosted on Integral LifeThe Narrative Enneagram Lifelong Learning programs, co-facilitated by Leslie HershbergerHelen Palmer, The Enneagram: Understanding Yourself and the Others in Your Life*Henri Nouwen, The Way of the Heart: The Spirituality of the Desert Fathers and Mothers*Evagrius Ponticus (Evagrius the Solitary), Christian monk and asceticVirgina Wiltse, PhD & Helen Palmer, Hidden in Plain Sight: Observations on the Origins of the EnneagramSt. John of the Cross, Dark Night of the Soul*Meyers Briggs Type Indicator (MBTI)Jacob Needleman, Lost Christianity*Jack Kornfield’s audio The Inner Art of Meditation*Thomas Keating, Centering Prayer, Intimacy with God: An Introduction to Centering Prayer*Cynthia Bourgeault, Christian contemplative, internationally acclaimed retreat leader, and author of The Corner of Fourth and Nondual* et al.Ian Cron & Suzanne Stabile, The Road Back to You*Richard Rohr, Franciscan priest and writer, Everything Belongs: The Gift of Contemplative Prayer*Beatrice Chestnut, The Complete Enneagram* (Leslie’s recommendation for a good comprehensive overview of the Enneagram, looking at the Enneagram through an archetypal lens)David Daniels, The Essential Enneagram* (Leslie’s recommended book for understanding the structure of the types)Ginger Lapid-Bogda, Bringing Out the Best in Yourself at Work* (Leslie’s recommendation for applying the Enneagram’s wisdom in the workplace) Sandra Maitri, The Spiritual Dimension of the Enneagram: Nine Faces of the Soul* (Leslie’s recommendation around the spiritual dimension of the Enneagram)Recommended typing test: https://www.narrativeenneagram.org/enneagram-test/#test-section* As an Amazon Associate, Deep Transformation earns from qualifying purchases.---Teacher, theologian, spiritual guide, and master facilitator, Leslie Hershberger is the founder of The Three-Centered Enneagram, and offers both corporate and contemplative workshops, retreats, and keynotes throughout the U.S. and in Europe. She designed the online course The Foundations of the Enneagram: The Centers Approach, which is both a deep and a practical way of developing embodied emotional and social intelligence. Leslie integrates the Enneagram, three-centered contemplative practice, and Integral Theory in her work.Leslie’s core mission is facilitating practice based in all 3 centers: head, heart, and body. She supports others in integrating psychological awareness and opening to wise, embodied spiritual Presence, especially during times of significant transition: social change, religious transition, second half of life, changing bodies, illness, grief, loss and the inevitable relationship challenges with those we care about most. She also supports many “post-church” pastors and people who have experienced a religious deconstruction and are looking for a way forward. Leslie was recently honored by Xavier University with the William and Anna Madges award for distinguished contribution to society.---Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell

Ep. 74 (Part 2 of 2) | Daniel Schmachtenberger, one of the most brilliant and integrative thinkers of our time, expresses here his deep love and appreciation for reality itself. Daniel’s inquiries have led him to perceive the intrinsic beauty of the wholeness of reality and to the realization that everything is interesting—just like when you love someone, everything about them becomes fascinating. Along with this deep appreciation comes the desire to serve and protect, and Daniel is focused on investigating the drivers of the metacrisis and how best to meet the difficult challenges it presents, a subject interwoven in this conversation with Daniel’s findings and ideas about reality, human psychology, education, and the future of the planet.Daniel is a wonderful testament to the far reaching effects of the right kind of education. He relates how he was homeschooled by parents who set him on the path towards goodness, meaning, and beauty right from the start, and who were dedicated to facilitating his interest wherever it led, to include systems theory and how to create a better world. This is a beautiful, rich conversation filled with gems of knowledge and insight—about our human family (actually, the lack of one), the horrible deficit of fathering in modern culture, how we can orient to the sacred and the meaningful, the fact that we actually didn’t evolve to deal with the crises we face now but to negotiate successfully as members of a tribe of around 150 people, and much more. Recorded January 10, 2023. “I cannot imagine a context in which one’s choices matter more.”(For Apple Podcast users, click here to view the complete show notes on the episode page.)Topics & Time Stamps – Part 2Does Daniel believe in God? (01:48)In Daniel’s “The Dance of the Tao and the 10,000 Things,” he asks, “Do atoms exist? Kind of! (08:23)The traps of reductionism in facing the metacrisis and how Daniel transcends them (10:49)The relation of physical crises to crises of consciousness: co-informing and co-arising facets of an integrative reality (13:11)Omni determinism, omni influence (16:31)Marvin Harris’ framework for understanding civilization: infrastructure, social structure, and superstructure (17:19)What in the interiority of human psyches, experiences & cultures are key drivers of the problems of the world? And how does our changed human genome, microbiome, and neurochemistry fit in? (19:00)We evolved to have attachments to 150 people—our tribe—so everything about bonding, attachment theory, the ideas of co-dependence & interdependence evolved in a tribal setting, in fact, we did not evolve to deal with what is going on now (21:22)The psychological generator function of the metacrisis results from perceiving the world as fragmented or made up of parts: conflict theory & mistake theory (23:34)The Realpolitik assessment of humans: we are dumb and nasty (25:54)It’s all based on a trade-off—we’re either trying to benefit ourselves now at the expense of our future selves, individually or collectively, or we just don’t realize the harm that is caused by what we do (27:26)Can we survive the current unprecedented metacrisis? No chance can we make it through without the catastrophes intensifying (30:08)The human family is not a real thing right now: there is no “we” (34:59)How to live a meaningful life? Deeply appreciate and honor the beauty of life, be in service to the beauty of reality, and deepen the capacity for both (37:33)Dharma inquiry and the vow of the bodhisattva (41:47) Where is the vow of the bodhisattva missing something? (44:09)It’s not just what is my unique calling but also what needs doing that no one else wants to do? (46:19)One beautiful peak experience is worth all the pain (50:00)Resources & References – Part 2Learning theory describes how people receive, process, and retain informationTao Te Ching* (new English version translated by Stephen Mitchell)Daniel Schmachtenberger, The Dance of the Tao and the 10,000 ThingsWerner Heisenberg, theoretical physicist and one of the main pioneers of the theory of quantum mechanicsErwin Schrödinger, Nobel Prize-winning physicist who developed a number of fundamental results in quantum theory, including the Schrödinger equationBuddhist Śūnyatā and Huayan philosophies“Technology is Not Values Neutral: Ending the Reign of Nihilistic Design,” overview of the work of Marvin Harris, Marshall McLuhan (on Consilience Project website) et al.Marvin Harris, anthropologist and writer, highly influential on the subjects of cultural materialism and environmental determinismMarshall McLuhan, philosopher who focused on the relationship between media and culture and developed the concept of technological determinism Nate Hagens’ 5-part podcast with Daniel Schmachtenberger on the environment, energy, and how does one deal with the reality of the metacrisis? (YouTube)David Bohm on Wholeness & Fragmentation (YouTube)R. Buckminster Fuller, Operating Manual for Spaceship Earth*Carl Sagan, Pale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space*Daniel Schmachtenberger, How to Live a Meaningful Life?Daniel Schmachtenberger, Dharma InquiryThe vow of the bodhisattvaAlex Grey, Sacred Mirrors*Poets Hafiz and RumiDaniel Schmachtenberger’s website Explorations on the Future of CivilizationDaniel Schmachtenberger, founding member of The Consilience Project, aimed at improving public sensemaking and dialogue * As an Amazon Associate, Deep Transformation earns from qualifying purchases.---Daniel Schmachtenberger is a founding member of The Consilience Project, aimed at improving public sensemaking and dialogue. The throughline of his interests has to do with ways of improving the health and development of individuals and society, with a virtuous relationship between the two as a goal. Towards these ends, he’s had particular interest in the topics of catastrophic and existential risk, civilization and institutional decay and collapse, as well as progress, collective action problems, social organization theories, and the relevant domains in philosophy and science.Motivated by the belief that advancing collective intelligence and capacity is foundational to the integrity of any civilization, and necessary to address the unique risks we currently face given the intersection of globalization and exponential technology, he has spoken publicly on many of these topics, hoping to popularize and deepen important conversations and engage more people in working towards their solutions. Many of these can be found at http://civilizationemerging.com/media/. You can find more information about The Consilience Project at https://consilienceproject.org/.---Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell

Ep. 73 (Part 1 of 2) | Daniel Schmachtenberger, one of the most brilliant and integrative thinkers of our time, expresses here his deep love and appreciation for reality itself. Daniel’s inquiries have led him to perceive the intrinsic beauty of the wholeness of reality and to the realization that everything is interesting—just like when you love someone, everything about them becomes fascinating. Along with this deep appreciation comes the desire to serve and protect, and Daniel is focused on investigating the drivers of the metacrisis and how best to meet the difficult challenges it presents, a subject interwoven in this conversation with Daniel’s findings and ideas about reality, human psychology, education, and the future of the planet.Daniel is a wonderful testament to the far reaching effects of the right kind of education. He relates how he was homeschooled by parents who set him on the path towards goodness, meaning, and beauty right from the start, and who were dedicated to facilitating his interest wherever it led, to include systems theory and how to create a better world. This is a beautiful, rich conversation filled with gems of knowledge and insight—about our human family (actually, the lack of one), the horrible deficit of fathering in modern culture, how we can orient to the sacred and the meaningful, the fact that we actually didn’t evolve to deal with the crises we face now but to negotiate successfully as members of a tribe of around 150 people, and much more. Recorded January 10, 2023. “I cannot imagine a context in which one’s choices matter more.”(For Apple Podcast users, click here to view the complete show notes on the episode page.)Topics & Time Stamps – Part 1Introducing brilliant integrative thinker Daniel Schmachtenberger (01:32)Finding meaning in the sacred dimensions of our world and the integrated wholeness of reality (03:52)Part of love is the desire to know everything about your partner—when loving reality, everything becomes interesting (05:47)The fractal nature of reality, looking at it through different lenses and receiving different insights, and how the more perspectives you take, the more depth and richness you perceive (07:13)Is there something about the nature of the effort to solve world problems that is at fault in their getting worse? (08:36)Daniel’s homeschooling parents set him on the path to following what is good, meaningful, and beautiful right from the start (10:22)If you facilitate children’s interest, they end up deep learning in many subjects (12:24)Daniel’s early education included systems theory and how to make a better world (14:46)How did Daniel come to be such an integrative thinker? Compartmentalized education vs integrated education (16:32)The decline of quality aristocratic tutoring has led to the decline of super geniuses (19:58)Are we all the result of our education? Tutors and mentors (28:11)Integrating across ontology and epistemology, and asking what is the generator function of novel insight? (29:07) Man’s greatest purpose is to serve the family of man: women, nature, children (33:07)The gruesome deficit of fathering in the world and what Daniel learned about being a man from his dad (35:19)On forgiveness, therapy, healing, catalyzing gifts (43:22)How do spiritual depths inform our contemporary crises? Needing to ask why we should protect nature shows a real pathological deficit (49:37)Orientation to the sacred and the meaningfulness of life forms through a deep bandwidth of connection and sensing (52:39)Learning more about the field of conceptuality can both interfere with one’s connection to the Tao and enhance it (55:39)Resources & References – Part 1Daniel Schmachtenberger’s website Explorations on the Future of CivilizationDaniel Schmachtenberger, founding member of The Consilience Project, aimed at improving public sensemaking and dialogue Kahlil Gibran, writer, poet, author of The Prophet*, one of the best-selling books of all timeComplexity theory uses the study of complexity systems in the field of strategic management and organizational studies, drawing from research in the natural sciencesDavid Bohm, one of the most significant theoretical physicists of the 20th centuryJohn Dewey, philosopher, psychologist, and educational reformer with a profound belief in democracyMaria Montessori, physician, educator, founder of the Montessori method of educationRudolf Steiner, philosopher, social reformer, founder of the esoteric spiritual movement anthroposophyBuckminster Fuller, 20th century inventor & visionary, who coined the term design science, author of Synergetics: Explorations in the Geometry of Thinking*Krishnamurti, philosopher, speaker, writer, interested in psychological revolution and radical social changeFritjof Kapra, author of The Tao of Physics* and The Systems View of Life*, applies complexity theory to large-scale social interaction in The Hidden Connections: A Science for Sustainable Living*Zachary Stein, educator, futurist, philosopher, author of Education in a Time Between Worlds*, see also Deep Transformation episode 61, The Future of Education and CivilizationErik Hoel, “Why We Stopped Making Einsteins”Marcus Aurelius, philosopher and Emperor of Rome, author of Meditations*Napoleon Hill, Think and Grow Rich*Daniel Schmachtenberger, What I learned about being a man from my DadArtists Dali & Picasso, poets Gibran & BlakeJoseph Campbell, The Power of Myth*Daniel Schmachtenberger, The Dance of the Tao and the 10,000 ThingsSamantha Sweetwater, soul mentor, wisdom teacher* As an Amazon Associate, Deep Transformation earns from qualifying purchases.---Daniel Schmachtenberger is a founding member of The Consilience Project, aimed at improving public sensemaking and dialogue. The throughline of his interests has to do with ways of improving the health and development of individuals and society, with a virtuous relationship between the two as a goal. Towards these ends, he’s had particular interest in the topics of catastrophic and existential risk, civilization and institutional decay and collapse, as well as progress, collective action problems, social organization theories, and the relevant domains in philosophy and science.Motivated by the belief that advancing collective intelligence and capacity is foundational to the integrity of any civilization, and necessary to address the unique risks we currently face given the intersection of globalization and exponential technology, he has spoken publicly on many of these topics, hoping to popularize and deepen important conversations and engage more people in working towards their solutions. Many of these can be found at http://civilizationemerging.com/media/. You can find more information about The Consilience Project at https://consilienceproject.org/.---Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell

Ep. 72 (Part 3 of 3) | Nicholas Hedlund & Sean Esbjörn-Hargens are big picture philosophers with extraordinary big hearts as well as big minds, dedicated to understanding how consciousness, culture, and nature relate to each other, and to forging a path for the Earth and civilization to flourish rather than fall apart. In this dialogue, the world of metatheories comes alive with urgent, purposeful meaning, because as Sean and Nick point out, integrative metatheories like Ken Wilber’s integral theory and Roy Bhaskar’s critical realism are the only tools that provide a useful framework for us to talk about and confront the vast web of interrelated and wicked problems we face on every level at this time. Now, we are only just beginning to understand the nature of the metacrisis—how the external crises are driven by interior crises of sensemaking and meaning making—but how do we bring everyone to the table to find solutions? How do we get the wisdom of these approaches to bear upon the crises we face? It turns out that heart connection—love, caring, and being willing to listen and to change—is a crucial, key ingredient for us to move forward in a positive way. Nick and Sean express both heartbreak and wild enthusiasm—heartbreak that our entire planetary community is so threatened and we have only a small window of time (till 2030) to transform our consciousness and culture into taking a cooperative and reverent approach to life, and enthusiasm to be alive at this pivotal time where everything hangs in the balance. Recorded December 7, 2022.“We really need both—we need big Heart to connect and be friends with each other and love each other and we need that in equal measure to big Mind.”(For Apple Podcast users, click here to view the complete show notes on the episode page.)Topics & Time Stamps – Part 3What metatheory is and what it is not: integrative metatheories explore how consciousness, culture, and nature relate to each other (01:35)Big picture models are antidotes to the single focus fallacies, single issue fallacies, single cause fallacies, and single solution fallacies (04:07)Developmentally, the majority of people are at a stage of “advanced linear thinking” and the metacrisis requires “advanced systems thinking” (05:21)People need 3 things to grow under stress instead of regress: context, pointing a way out, and being told what we can do individually (06:46)How do we communicate the urgency without invoking the psychology of fear? (09:08)The crucial window to transform the very foundations of our civilization is between now and 2030 (10:18)What can we do? We’re still working on the context but we need to have a collective conversation to figure out what is the path out, or the possible paths out (11:20)A core developmental practice we can actually do is perspective taking, perspective seeking, and perspective coordinating (14:28)Ego death is all along the path; we need to keep opening up to a bigger version of ourselves (16:15)Taking perspectives is not enough (18:37)Business as usual is not going to happen—how do we create new educational systems to transform the world in the ways that are needed? (21:10)The importance of sounding our note, sitting in prayer in humility, and asking, what can I do? (25:10)Pessimism and optimism are both ego strategies to deal with uncertainty; we need to learn to rest in uncertainty individually and collectively because no one knows what will happen (27:20)How has grappling with the problems of the metacrisis changed Nick and Sean? (31:16)Where is the hope? (36:44)Resources & References – Part 3Hanzi Freinacht, The Listening Society*Bildung links philosophy and education for both personal and cultural maturationJonathan Rowson, “Bildung in the 21st Century: Why Sustainable Prosperity Depends on Reimagining Education”Joanna Macy & Chris Johnstone, Active Hope: How to Face the Mess We’re In Without Going Crazy*A.H. Almaas, creator of The Diamond Approach, see also Diamond Approach YouTube videos with A. H. Almaas, and Deep Transformation episode 43, Nonduality and Beyond: The Exhilarating Adventure of Discovering the Nature of Reality and How Awakenings Can Unfold Endlessly (also available on YouTube)Nicholas Hedlund & Sean Esbjörn-Hargens, Big Picture Perspectives on Planetary Flourishing*Roy Bhaskar, Sean Esbjörn-Hargens, Nicholas Hedlund, Mervyn Hartwig, Metatheory for the Twenty-First Century: Critical Realism and Integral Theory in Dialogue*Sean Esbjörn-Hargens & Michael Zimmerman, Integral Ecology*Nicholas Hedlund’s Academia.edu page with his PhD thesis and a number of articles, book chapters, etc. Sean Esbjörn-Hargens, founder of MetaIntegral, a global transdisciplinary social impact organizationNick Hedlund, founding director of the Eudaimonia Institute, dedicated to human flourishing* As an Amazon Associate, Deep Transformation earns from qualifying purchases.---Sean Esbjörn-Hargens is a global leader in the application of integrative thinking to leader development, organizational design, and mixed-methods design. In 2011 he founded MetaIntegral, a social impact network that supports change leaders around the world in applying integrative principles. Sean’s passion lies at the intersection of design, integral theory, and embodiment. He has published and edited numerous articles, chapters, and books. His most recent book is Big Picture Perspectives on Planetary Flourishing. He also is the Program Director of the MA/PhD program Integral Noetic Sciences at the California Institute for Human Sciences.Nicholas Hedlund, PhD, is a visionary philosopher working at the nexus of philosophy of science, worldviews, and socioecological transformation. He received his PhD in philosophy and social sciences from University College London, studying under the philosopher Roy Bhaskar. Nicholas also holds a master’s degree in philosophy & religion, as well as one in psychology. He is director of Eudaimonia Institute, an emerging social innovations lab for planetary flourishing. His work has appeared in numerous anthologies and peer-reviewed journals. He is co-editor of Metatheory for the Twenty-First Century: Critical Realism and Integral Theory in Dialogue and Big Picture Perspectives for Planetary Flourishing: Metatheory for the Anthropocene, Vol I. He currently teaches at the California Institute of Human Science.---Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell

Ep. 71 (Part 2 of 3) | Nicholas Hedlund & Sean Esbjörn-Hargens are big picture philosophers with extraordinary big hearts as well as big minds, dedicated to understanding how consciousness, culture, and nature relate to each other, and to forging a path for the Earth and civilization to flourish rather than fall apart. In this dialogue, the world of metatheories comes alive with urgent, purposeful meaning, because as Sean and Nick point out, integrative metatheories like Ken Wilber’s integral theory and Roy Bhaskar’s critical realism are the only tools that provide a useful framework for us to talk about and confront the vast web of interrelated and wicked problems we face on every level at this time. Now, we are only just beginning to understand the nature of the metacrisis—how the external crises are driven by interior crises of sensemaking and meaning making—but how do we bring everyone to the table to find solutions? How do we get the wisdom of these approaches to bear upon the crises we face? It turns out that heart connection—love, caring, and being willing to listen and to change—is a crucial, key ingredient for us to move forward in a positive way. Nick and Sean express both heartbreak and wild enthusiasm—heartbreak that our entire planetary community is so threatened and we have only a small window of time (till 2030) to transform our consciousness and culture into taking a cooperative and reverent approach to life, and enthusiasm to be alive at this pivotal time where everything hangs in the balance. Recorded December 7, 2022.“We really need both—we need big Heart to connect and be friends with each other and love each other and we need that in equal measure to big Mind.”(For Apple Podcast users, click here to view the complete show notes on the episode page.)Topics & Time Stamps – Part 2The difference between dialogue and debate: being willing to have one’s mind changed and opening up the opportunity for real dialogue (01:23)The critical reality principle/truth that we all share one world (03:07)The call to evolve together and mature spiritually (05:14)Reasons to be optimistic and reasons to be concerned about what lies ahead: the metacrisis will be a developmental catalyst for some but not all (07:33)The integral ecology mantra: things are getting better, things are also getting worse, and the eternal nature of perfection (09:33) How can we speak to the fears of the people? The failure of liberal globalism, the rise of conservatism, and the search for higher political ground (12:01)Learning to listen to reality itself and what is being communicated by the profound intelligence of nature (15:03)What steps can we take to contribute to the full system reboot that is needed now? Cultivating the reverent heart sensibility (21:15)Applying big picture maps to addressing aspects of the metacrisis: six qualities pointing to the ways in which we need to be connected in order to make any progress (22:56) How can we all be friends? Cultivating filia, connecting heart to heart, is the secret ingredient to the success of long term collaboration (28:11)How do we scale heart connection among humans? (35:43)We need more expressive capacity as a humanity, which metatheories can help us with (37:47)Resources & References – Part 2Daniel Schmachtenberger, founding member of The Consilience Project, aimed at improving public sensemaking and dialogueCarl Rogers, great American psychologist, Journal of Humanistic Psychology: The Rust Workshop (The Central American Challenge)Robert Kegan’s story about how people with irreconcilable views about abortion discovered their common humanity and came to care about each other, as retold by author, educator & scientist James ConklinCarl Rogers, “When I look at the world I am pessimistic…”John Dupuy, Integral Recovery: A Revolutionary Approach to the Treatment of Alcoholism and Addiction*Nicholas Hedlund & Sean Esbjörn-Hargens, Big Picture Perspectives on Planetary Flourishing*Roy Bhaskar, Sean Esbjörn-Hargens, Nicholas Hedlund, Mervyn Hartwig, Metatheory for the Twenty-First Century: Critical Realism and Integral Theory in Dialogue*Nicholas Hedlund’s Academia.edu page with his PhD thesis and a number of articles, book chapters, etc. Sean Esbjörn-Hargens & Michael Zimmerman, Integral Ecology*Sean Esbjörn-Hargens, founder of MetaIntegral, a global transdisciplinary social impact organizationNick Hedlund, founder director of the Eudaimonia Institute, dedicated to human flourishing* As an Amazon Associate, Deep Transformation earns from qualifying purchases.---Sean Esbjörn-Hargens is a global leader in the application of integrative thinking to leader development, organizational design, and mixed-methods design. In 2011 he founded MetaIntegral, a social impact network that supports change leaders around the world in applying integrative principles. Sean’s passion lies at the intersection of design, integral theory, and embodiment. He has published and edited numerous articles, chapters, and books. His most recent book is Big Picture Perspectives on Planetary Flourishing. He also is the Program Director of the MA/PhD program Integral Noetic Sciences at the California Institute for Human Sciences.Nicholas Hedlund, PhD, is a visionary philosopher working at the nexus of philosophy of science, worldviews, and socioecological transformation. He received his PhD in philosophy and social sciences from University College London, studying under the philosopher Roy Bhaskar. Nicholas also holds a master’s degree in philosophy & religion, as well as one in psychology. He is director of Eudaimonia Institute, an emerging social innovations lab for planetary flourishing. His work has appeared in numerous anthologies and peer-reviewed journals. He is co-editor of Metatheory for the Twenty-First Century: Critical Realism and Integral Theory in Dialogue and Big Picture Perspectives for Planetary Flourishing: Metatheory for the Anthropocene, Vol I. He currently teaches at the California Institute of Human Science.---Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell

Ep. 70 (Part 1 of 3) | Nicholas Hedlund & Sean Esbjörn-Hargens are big picture philosophers with extraordinary big hearts as well as big minds, dedicated to understanding how consciousness, culture, and nature relate to each other, and to forging a path for the Earth and civilization to flourish rather than fall apart. In this dialogue, the world of metatheories comes alive with urgent, purposeful meaning, because as Sean and Nick point out, integrative metatheories like Ken Wilber’s integral theory and Roy Bhaskar’s critical realism are the only tools that provide a useful framework for us to talk about and confront the vast web of interrelated and wicked problems we face on every level at this time. Now, we are only just beginning to understand the nature of the metacrisis—how the external crises are driven by interior crises of sensemaking and meaning making—but how do we bring everyone to the table to find solutions? How do we get the wisdom of these approaches to bear upon the crises we face? It turns out that heart connection—love, caring, and being willing to listen and to change—is a crucial, key ingredient for us to move forward in a positive way. Nick and Sean express both heartbreak and wild enthusiasm—heartbreak that our entire planetary community is so threatened and we have only a small window of time (till 2030) to transform our consciousness and culture into taking a cooperative and reverent approach to life, and enthusiasm to be alive at this pivotal time where everything hangs in the balance. Recorded December 7, 2022.“We really need both—we need big Heart to connect and be friends with each other and love each other and we need that in equal measure to big Mind.”(For Apple Podcast users, click here to view the complete show notes on the episode page.)Topics & Time Stamps – Part 1Introducing philosophers Nicholas Hedlund & Sean Esbjörn-Hargens, who coined the term metacrisis (01:30)Nick’s mystical experiences early on and awareness of the crisis the Earth is facing led him to find a way to study the big picture beyond the partial perspectives offered in different university departments (02:57)For Nick, the metacrisis is connected with his own spiritual path and the questions “Who am I?” “Why am I here?” and “What does it mean to be human at this time?” (06:34)Sean started with studying animal consciousness, then added philosophy, psychology, and biology for an interdisciplinary understanding, focusing on ways of relating to the natural world—environmental philosophy (07:10)Ken Wilber’s Integral Theory brought Sean into deeper contact with nature, culture, and consciousness, and opened his heart (10:45)Nick & Sean coined the term “metacrisis” to illuminate more than simply the sum of all the crises, but also how they overlap and intertwine: the holistic complexity (13:01)Wicked problems: if we solve any of the crises, the solution grows more problems (14:45)All the crises share a network of root causes, deeper causal structures that underlie the symptoms we are experiencing—crises of interiority & spirituality, sensemaking & meaning making, are drivers of the rest (15:17)Our global problems are actually global symptoms (16:55)Nick & Sean created a big picture symposium series where scholars/practitioners familiar with Roy Bashkar’s critical realism and Ken Wilber’s Integral Theory (and familiar with the work of Edgar Morin, who uses the term “polycrisis”) came together to dialogue (17:45)The value of integrative metatheory: bringing the metacrisis into view, exploring the relationship between culture, consciousness, and nature, allowing us to actually talk about the situation and coordinate ourselves into action (19:18)Why is having a good theory of ontology (Bashkar’s critical realism) and of consciousness (Wilber’s Integral Theory) necessary? (21:54)Ontology = the study of reality, the study of being, the truth of things beyond our knowledge about them vs. epistemology which is our knowledge—how we know the world and gain knowledge about reality (22:48)Critical realism: there is something real, a deep strata, beyond what we see or observe (24:44)What are some of the great challenges and the core elements of the metacrisis? (26:05)The ecological crisis and sense of urgency because we have crossed many of the planetary boundaries, e.g. with CO2 (28:40)The ecosocial crisis, the ethical crisis, the existential crisis form the (external) polycrisis (30:17)The epistemic crisis of sensemaking is an internal crisis (31:29)Worldview clashes and an Integral forestry story of successfully building communication: taking perspectives, seeking perspectives, and coordinating perspectives (32:50)Resources & References – Part 1Nicholas Hedlund & Sean Esbjörn-Hargens, Big Picture Perspectives on Planetary Flourishing*Roy Bhaskar, Sean Esbjörn-Hargens, Nicholas Hedlund, Mervyn Hartwig, Metatheory for the Twenty-First Century: Critical Realism and Integral Theory in Dialogue*Sean Esbjörn-Hargens & Michael Zimmerman, Integral Ecology*Nicholas Hedlund's Academia.edu page with his PhD thesis and a number of articles, book chapters, etc. Sean Esbjörn-Hargens, founder of MetaIntegral, a global transdisciplinary social impact organizationNick Hedlund, founding director of the Eudaimonia Institute, dedicated to human flourishingKen Wilber, Sex, Ecology, Spirituality*Ken Wilber, A Brief History of Everything*Edgar Morin, French philosopher and sociologist who uses the term polycrisisCalifornia Institute of Integral Studies (CIIS)Roy Bhaskar, English philosopher of science who initiated the philosophical movement of critical realismAndrew Collier, Critical Realism: An Introduction to Roy Bhaskar’s Philosophy*Ken Wilber’s Integral Theory: Integral Life’s What is the Integral Approach?, The Integral Vision: A Very Short Introduction to the Revolutionary Integral Approach to Life, God, the Universe, and Everything*Zachary Stein, author of Education in a Time Between Worlds: Essays on the Future of Schools, Technology & Society*, co-founder of The Consilience Project, see also Deep Transformation episode #61, The Future of Education & CivilizationDaniel Schmachtenberger, founding member of The Consilience Project, aimed at improving public sensemaking and dialogue Jonathan Rowson, co-founder and director of Perspectiva, systems-soul-society.com, anthology Dispatches from a Time Between Worlds: Crisis and Emergence in Metamodernity*, see also Deep Transformation episode #17, Making Friends with Conflict, Metamodernity, Construct Awareness, and Other Ways of Facing the Current MetacrisisJane Loevinger’s Stages of Ego Development, Ego Development,* Paradigms of Personality** As an Amazon Associate, Deep Transformation earns from qualifying purchases.---Sean Esbjörn-Hargens is a global leader in the application of integrative thinking to leader development, organizational design, and mixed-methods design. In 2011 he founded MetaIntegral, a social impact network that supports change leaders around the world in applying integrative principles. Sean’s passion lies at the intersection of design, integral theory, and embodiment. He has published and edited numerous articles, chapters, and books. His most recent book is Big Picture Perspectives on Planetary Flourishing. He also is the Program Director of the MA/PhD program Integral Noetic Sciences at the California Institute for Human Sciences.Nicholas Hedlund, PhD, is a visionary philosopher working at the nexus of philosophy of science, worldviews, and socioecological transformation. He received his PhD in philosophy and social sciences from University College London, studying under the philosopher Roy Bhaskar. Nicholas also holds a master’s degree in philosophy & religion, as well as one in psychology. He is director of Eudaimonia Institute, an emerging social innovations lab for planetary flourishing. His work has appeared in numerous anthologies and peer-reviewed journals. He is co-editor of Metatheory for the Twenty-First Century: Critical Realism and Integral Theory in Dialogue and Big Picture Perspectives for Planetary Flourishing: Metatheory for the Anthropocene, Vol I. He currently teaches at the California Institute of Human Science.---Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell