Mark Fischler (Part 1) – Building a Just World: How Our Laws Express Our Collective Values, and the Challenge of Uplifting Our Values, Law, and Society

Ep. 81 (Part 1 of 2) | Constitutional law expert and criminal justice professor Mark Fischler has a thirst for justice and a gift for teaching. With cogency and passion, Mark explains that law is not the absolute that we perhaps thought, but an ever changing reflection of the values we hold as a society. Law is a developmental process, and will benefit from our own dedication to inner moral development. Mark shows how the law can (and has) become ever more inclusive, with the potential to serve and uphold the dignity of all peoples, all beings. Because of its abstract clauses, there is room in the Constitution to interpret the law in ways that are attuned with our pluralistic society. Mark calls on us to come together and decide what we value as a people—there is no mandate in democracy that all decision making power must reside in the hands of the Supreme Court, which has only had the sort of unilateral power it enjoys today since the 1950s.

This is no dry, legalistic conversation, but a truly illuminating vision of the potential of the law to embody justice, inclusivity, compassion. It is also a solid overview of where we have come from and where we are now, referencing many landmark rulings of the Supreme Court. Finally, this is spiritually inspiring as well—Mark tells the story of the transformational epiphany he had as a young man that led to his career as a public defender, onto the spiritual path, and eventually to become a well-respected, award-winning professor of criminal justice. Mark’s perspective on the law is far ranging, embracing human rights, animal rights, the rights of all beings. It comes from a place of deep care and compassion: “What is the happiness that the Declaration of Independence talks about, what is suffering?” Be inspired by Mark’s wise and knowledgeable teachings and the potential of the law to create a just society for all. Recorded January 4, 2023.

“Law is our collective coming together and deciding what we value as a people.”

(For Apple Podcast users, click here to view the complete show notes on the episode page.)

Topics & Time Stamps – Part 1

• Introducing professor of criminal justice and constitutional law expert Mark Fischler (01:31)
• How did Mark get into constitutional law? (03:45)
• At the foundation of legal theory is the question: natural law or positive law? How Ken Wilber reduced the cognitive dissonance going on around this for Mark (06:44)
• Law is a lawyer-driven process and the action is in the criminal courts (07:52)
• Mark’s 1996 transformational epiphany of self-knowledge around the judgmental character of his mind (09:16)
• How psychotherapy relates to Mark’s practice as a public defender and taking a bodhisattva approach to being there for all beings (13:59)
• The deepening of Mark’s spiritual practice: Am I supposed to leave everything behind, give it all up? (21:08)
• “The demon spoke” (Socrates): leaving public defender hood and the beginning of Mark’s spiritual journey (25:03)
• Miguel Luiz’ Four Agreements: principles upon which to life your life (29:35)
• Being of service to others is the foundational piece driving Mark to deepen his understanding of the law and in his role as professor (35:08)
• “We’re in a stage of pluralism, but we sure don’t act that way;”Justice Alito’s decision in the Dobbs case, overturning Roe v. Wade (37:02)
• Can we start to have a conversation about the law, from a 30,000’ point of view, transcending and including perspectives, even the Integral one? (38:20)
• Giving the Supreme Court so much power to make legal decisions is only as old as the 1950s (39:46) 
• Was Roe v. Wade the best way to go? We needed to have a more honest conversation from the start (43:37)
• Human rights and how developmental stages play out in the justice system (46:35)
• Roger highlights the points Mark has brought up and their antidotes: absolutism, pluralism, the need for honest conversations, integrating different points of view (48:12)
• Teaching civil liberties to a class of diverse first generation students so that they feel heard and valued (51:47)
• Understanding Alito’s point of view, emotional contagion, and how Alito and other Supreme Court justices do not feel respected or heard (55:18)
• Black nationalism: being completely independent of the system (58:40)

Resources & References – Part 1

• What’s the Future (WTF) and What Can We Do About It? Integral Conference, Sedona 2022
• John Kaiser, professor whose teachings stand at the crossroads between social & political philosophy, human rights, and ethics
• Plato, The Republic*
• Ken Wilber’s Four Quadrants (Integral Life)
• Melvyn Zarr, professor who represented Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
• Hayden Valley, Yosemite
• Roshi Philip Kapleau, The Three Pillars of Zen*
• The Third Patriarch of Zen, “…and the burdensome practice of judging brings annoyance and weariness” 
• Gerry Spence, founder of the Trial Lawyer’s College, who tried and won many nationally known cases, including the Karen Silkwood case
• Carl Rogers, On Becoming a Person*
• The practice of tonglen
• Pema Chodron, Reggie Ray, Ram Dass, Shunryu Suzuki
• Bob Fogelnest, former president of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers
• Plato’s Apology
• Bo Lozoff, We’re All Doing Time: A Guide to Getting Free (foreword by The Dalai Lama)
• Miguel Luiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom*
• Gini Gentry, ​​spiritual leader of the Toltec Eagle Knight Lineage 
• Don Miguel Luiz: Events, Workshops, Retreats
• Dobbs v. Jackson, where Justice Alito’s decision overturned Roe v. Wade 
• Jeff Salzman, beloved Integral pundit, The Daily Evolver podcast
• Marbury v. Madison, Supreme Court case that established the principle of judicial review in the United States
• The Warren Court and Brown v. Board of Education
• Corey Robin, The Enigma of Clarence Thomas*
• Stokely Carmichael, Malcolm X, Elijah Muhammad
• Thomas Sowell, author, philosopher, economist, Discrimination and Disparities*

* As an Amazon Associate, Deep Transformation earns from qualifying purchases.

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Mark Fischler is a Professor of Criminal Justice and current program coordinator for the criminal justice and criminology programs at Plymouth State University. Prior to joining the Plymouth State faculty, he practiced law, representing poor criminal defendants for the New Hampshire Public Defender’s Office. Mark left the law after being guided by the Universe to focus on his Spiritual Awareness for almost two years. Upon his return, he was called to become a teacher and accepted a job at Plymouth State in 2003.

 Since then, Mark has worked extensively with alternative theoretical models in law, constitutional law, and higher education, and has published on integral applications to teaching, being a lawyer, and legal theory. In his time at the university, he’s been a chair, Dean, and Interim VP. His focus in the classroom is ethics and criminal procedure and constitutional law. He is well respected for a teaching philosophy that emphasizes recognizing the humanity and dignity of each student. Professor Fischler was awarded the outstanding teaching award at his university in 2014. He currently offers a weekly Spiritual Inquiry class for college students.

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Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell