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Kerre Woodham Mornings Podcast

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Jul 15, 2024 • 35min

Greg Foran: Air NZ CEO takes talkback in studio with Kerre Woodham

Cancellation rates at Air New Zealand are falling but the airline’s chief executive Greg Foran acknowledges delays for passengers are frustrating and have to be reduced.  Speaking on Kerre Woodham’s Newstalk ZB show, Foran also said he could understand the frustration at being bused to destinations when flights are cancelled, but the airline was meeting its obligations if it did get passengers to where they needed to get to within a reasonable time.  In response to a question about charging fees on debit cards, Foran said the policy wasn’t going to change as it would have to look for other ways of making up that revenue.  One caller said he had been delayed on 23 out of 24 domestic flights he’d been on this year and questioned the airline’s on-time performance.  On-time performance (OTP) is an industry-wide measurement, defined as flights that arrive at their destination within 15 minutes of scheduled arrival time.  Foran said the cancellation rate had fallen to 3.2% of all flights and punctuality was improving.  Figures released earlier this year show that in the January to March quarter, Air NZ OTP for domestic jets was 81.4%.  But the caller said: ‘‘You just don’t book a meeting around an Air New Zealand flight.’'  One recent flight was due to get him from Palmerston North to Auckland at 1pm, but a plane breakdown meant a bus trip to Wellington to catch another flight and he didn’t make it back home until 1am.  ‘‘You got me home which is great – but I’ve only had one flight on time. It’s shocking,’’ the caller said.  Foran said while averages could show improvement, every single case was different and the airline was concentrating its efforts on improving punctuality. It had been hit with engine maintenance problems on its domestic jet fleet and other supply chain issues were still affecting it, he said.  ‘‘It is a top priority for us to get that sorted.’'      The caller said it was especially frustrating because the cost of travel was going up – including Koru membership.  ‘‘We’re paying an extra $200 for that and you can’t get us there on time,’’ the caller said.  Foran said there would be other cases where people’s experience of punctuality had been good.  ‘’Our objective is you got to leave on time, you got to arrive on time. We’ve got to make sure we don’t lose anything in between. There will be cases where we can’t and you accept that and I accept that but overall it’s got to improve.”  In response to another caller who had paid hundreds of dollars for a flight only to have it cancelled and taken by bus to his destination; Foran said: ‘‘obviously, it is not our preference - we’d much rather that we got you there by plane, (but) we’re fulfilling our obligations of getting you there.’'  Not everyone would have been paying hundreds of dollars, ‘‘quite a few’' would have paid $80.  ‘‘There are times that these things happen and they are beyond our control, but most times we do get people to where they need to get to.’'  On charging for debit cards, Foran said the airline incurred some administrative costs.  ’’We’ve got a charging structure and that’s how it operates.’'  Foran also reassured listeners with power wheelchairs (which can weigh around 140kg) that it wasn’t the airline’s policy to charge for them and it would look at ways of making international check-in smoother for those who need them.  Grant Bradley has been working at the Herald since 1993. He is the Business Herald’s deputy editor and covers aviation and tourism.    WATCH ABOVE See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Jul 15, 2024 • 8min

Kerre Woodham: It would be great if we could see the Trump rally shooting as a reset

Goodness gracious me, what a weekend, wasn't it? If he wasn't a shoe-in after Joe Biden's bumbling mis-speaking performance that we were incredulous about on Friday, you can bet the presidency is the Donald’s for the losing now, after the failed assassination attempt at a Trump rally in Pennsylvania over the weekend. Yet to be officially confirmed that it was an actual assassination attempt, but when it looks like one, sounds like one, feels like one, you can probably assume it was one. Absolutely extraordinary scenes. And the show of defiance in the immediate aftermath of the shooting, that image of Trump being led off stage with the raised fist and the American flag just so, reminded me of that iconic Iwo Jima photo of the GI's raising the flag. It was one of those photos for the ages, really. Those who believe in God and Trump will believe that God protected their man, while taking the lives of others. Dissenting voices within the Republicans who aren't a hundy on Trump, they won't dare to raise their voices at the GOP convention - which is just hours away from confirming Donald Trump as the Republican nominee. As US correspondent Nick Bryant points out, there won't be a platform for any dissenting voices. "One of the key points to make about the convention - there are Republicans who have serious misgivings about Donald Trump. There are many Republicans who wanted Nikki Haley. There are many Republicans who are who are still deeply uneasy about his authoritarian tendencies, and they have fears that American democracy really isn't safe if he is returned to the White House." "And it's going to be very difficult to make that case in a in a voluble sense, to raise your voice against Trump in this moment, given that the party has just rallied around him. And this kind of cult that Trump has kind of created ever since he came down that golden escalator in 2015, it's become even stronger as a result of this failed assassination attempt." Well, it really has. He looks quite literally bulletproof, doesn't he? There have been calls for the campaigning rhetoric to be toned down in the wake of the shooting. Republican Representative Steve Scalise was among six people shot when a gunman opened fire at a baseball field in Virginia in 2017, when the Republican congressional baseball team was practising ahead of a charity game. The gunman, who was killed by police, was angry with the Republican Party, so instead of writing a letter to the editor, or ringing talk radio, he picks up a gun and goes to shoot at them. He said he wanted to see all sides tone down the rhetoric surrounding the election. And he said after the 2017 there was a reset moment and he hopes one will be possible again. He said - moments like yesterday refocus, everybody, reset everything, and in the shooting in 2017 for a long period of time, there did seem to be a dialling down and hopefully there'll be a dialling down again. I think everybody's got to look in the mirror. And Melania Trump, wife of Donald Trump, released a very moving statement - an unusual one, because she has stayed well out of this. And you can kind of see why in her statement. She said - a monster who recognised my husband as an inhuman political machine attempted to wring out (her words) Donald's passion, his laughter, ingenuity, love of music and inspiration. The core facets of my husband's life - his human side - were buried below the political machine. Donald, the generous and caring man who I've been with through the best of times and the worst of times. Let us not forget that differing opinions, policy and political games are inferior to love. We're all humans, fundamentally, instinctively, we want to help one another. American politics are only one vehicle that can uplift our communities. Love compassion, kindness, and empathy, and necessities. I’ve paraphrased a bit here, but basically, is she saying don't let the politics drown out the people. Don't let the political machine reduce you to a one dimensional stereotype. And isn't that true of what's been happening the world over? When you think of the anger and the inflamed passions that we've seen around the world and here, we're not immune to it. There were some terrible things that were said about people across the political spectrum, you know, rape, murder, rape of children, these are New Zealanders saying that, thinking that they can say it on the dark web and nobody will know it's them. Because of politics. And you can get angry and you can believe that people make wrong choices and you can believe that they don't have the best interests of a community at heart, but how does violence and violent rhetoric help in any way, shape or form? You wonder if people feel that they haven't got a platform to speak, that they're not being heard, which results in this kind of anger and this kind of violence. And I'm not just talking about this particular shooting, I'm talking about what's happening the world over. Do people feel they don't have the skills to be able to speak up and articulate how they're feeling? Is that is that why we're seeing so much violence? Literal violence and metaphorical violence. Do people feel as soon as they speak their mind, they're going to be shouted down and called bad people? You know, we used to be able to have differing opinions. We used to be able to talk about it. We used to be able to have passioned impassioned debates, and many of us still can. But there are a group of people who either feel so misrepresented or completely ignored, or reviled, and who are unable to take a stand on a platform and have their say, express how they feel and be heard, that they resort to violence. And it would be great if we could see this as a reset. I rather fear that than the US gun violence is so common. Not as common in the political realm, but you know, if you heard Richard Arnold, there have been plenty of examples of political shootings in recent times, not assassinations of former presidents, but certainly, as we saw with the the Republican baseball game, there have been political shootings. It may be too late for the US, but I hope to hell it's not too late for us. LISTEN ABOVESee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Jul 12, 2024 • 3min

Kerre Woodham: More road cones aren't the answer to workplace safety

I know the road cones might seem trivial, but to me, I've always thought they were a metaphor for excessive spending and over-rigorous regulation.   When you looked at road cones, it wasn't a little cherry orange witches hat you saw, it was costs being inflated and people being overly cautious, the wasting of time and money, which was happening across so many government departments. When National referred to road cones during the election campaign, as they did from time to time, I thought they too were using it as a symbol of excess and a symbol of red tape strangling growth. But no, road cones are in fact in the gun.   Transport Minister Simeon Brown has announced excessive use of the temporary traffic management tools (as they're officially known), must come to an end.  He says use of road cones is out of control and the temporary speed limit reductions that are often left in place when work is complete is a massive frustration for drivers, and says common sense must prevail.   Of course, safety for road workers must be paramount. I heard Andrew mention 40 deaths a year... well, no, there are 10 deaths per year among road workers and 30 serious injury accidents. Way too many. That's 10 deaths too many, 30 serious injury accidents too many, even taking into account that you're working with unforgiving machinery and that there are far more risk factors involved than there are in working in an office, that's way too many accidents.   But clearly an overabundance of road cones doesn't equate to an overabundance of caution. There are millions of road cones on our roads, and they are not keeping the road workers safe. It's unlikely more road cones is going to be the answer when it comes to workplace safety.   I imagine there will be a chill wind blowing through the accounts offices of all those companies and contractors that have been working for government departments. No more sending off of invoices and just counting the gold coins coming back into the company. This seems to send a message that costs will be questioned and audited and double checked, and this is a very, very good thing. People have to be accountable when it's taxpayer dollars that are funding the projects, and I suspect that while many, many companies and businesses and who can blame them, have had a glorious few years feathering their nests, the good times are fast coming to an end.   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Jul 12, 2024 • 6min

Where I Ate Last with Tony Astle: Grand Harbour

This week Tony Astle ate at Grand Harbour, a Chinese fine dining restaurant with a host of delicious traditional recipes. He sampled the Pork and vegetable spring rolls, the Xiaolongbao, the spinach and prawn dumplings, and their famous deep fried squid. "I have consumed many more dishes at this venue. I LOVE the tripe and tendons." LISTEN ABOVE   Recipe of the Week: Cassis Macerated Apples and Blackberries This week Tony Astle is serving up a recipe for Cassis Macerated Apples and Blackberries, topped with Meringue and Baked.     Ingredients:  Fruit Mixture  1 kg Granny Smith apples, peeled, cored and thinly sliced  170 g sugar  60 g brown sugar  350 ml water  Zest of 1 orange  200 6 blackberries (fresh or frozen)     Meringue  235 g sugar  Half tbsp glucose  50 ml water  3 egg white     Method:   Fruit Mixture  Combine apples, sugars, water and zest in a pot.  Bring to a boil but avoid turning the apples mushy. Add the blackberries.  Cook for 5 minutes. Cool. Then add the cassis     Meringue  Combine water glucose and sugar in a pan.  Heat without stirring until it reaches 125 deg C on a sugar thermometer.  Beat the egg whites, until they have stiff peaks.  With the beater still running, pour the sugar syrup onto the egg whites.  Continue beating until the mixture is smooth and thick.  Note: the meringue can be refrigerated until required.        Finishing  Heat ban oven to 180 deg C.  In a pan, heat the fruit mix, then fill individual bowls.  Top with the meringue.  Bake for about 15 minutes, so the meringue is browned slightly.  Serve with whipped cream.    LISTEN ABOVE See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Jul 11, 2024 • 7min

Kerre Woodham: Are you starting to feel more confident?

Well, did we get some good news with the Reserve Bank's report yesterday? Not as full as their OCR statement that we're expecting in August, but an update nonetheless. Is the long winter of our financial discontent about to be made glorious summer? Will the Reserve Bank ease its restrictive monetary policy this year so that we don't all have to survive to 25, we can thrive in 25, giving those who are paying mortgages and business loans some respite?   Certainly, indications are that the engineered recession that's affected so many New Zealanders could be coming to an end. The Reserve Bank got what they wanted, business and consumer confidence has plummeted, unemployment has risen, and finally, finally, the battle to restore inflation to the 1- 3% target could be showing signs of being won.   A lot of conditionals in there: could be, might, should, but CoreLogic NZ’s Chief Property Economist Kelvin Davidson says given the continued weakness of the economy in recent months, there is a chance the August statement from the Reserve Bank could be the one where it softens its tone and starts to lay the groundwork for an OCR cut as early as November. A lot of people had been talking about those cuts happening next year, now there are signs that it could be as early as November. It stayed the same yesterday so you might be wondering why the excitement, but it was in the final comment in the statement that says we could be looking to ease some of the restrictions around economic policy.   The New Zealand Institute for Economic Research says we expect an OCR cut in the first half of 2025, with the risks increasingly tilted towards February 2025. The release of the June quarter CPI next Wednesday will be an important influence on the timing of when OCR cuts will begin, given that the Reserve Bank is still concerned about non-tradable inflation, they’re concerned that will remain persistently high. So with the non-tradable inflation, that's your insurance going up, that's your council rates, that's your rent, cigarettes and tobacco.   Kiwibank economists are far more bullish, saying the signs are that interest rate cuts will happen quickly next year. They're saying, perhaps by November. And then once the OCR comes down, then the interest rate cuts will happen early next year. So you need to see the OCR come down, and then the interest rates will follow, and it will happen quickly. We should bear in mind that while interest rate cuts will be good news for those who have home and business loans, those who are living off their term deposits won't be quite so thrilled.   So August will be the time when we know for sure whether the noose will be loosened. But are you already feeling more optimistic? I am. When you hear Kiwibank saying interest rate cuts will happen really quickly next year, we're looking to November for the OCR to come down, for inflation to get back into that target of 1-3%, that everything that the Reserve Bank has done... It's taken some time because there are some people who have money, there are some people who have profited from the recession and that's what happens in every recession there are winners and losers. So it took them longer than they thought to bring about the unemployment, to bring about the plummeting business confidence, consumer confidence. And so the pain for some people has lasted longer. But are you getting a sense, especially in your business, that things are on the up?   Confidence is all about propaganda, really. It's all about good news stories. It feeds on itself. When you have people saying, yep, the interest rate cuts are going to happen and they're going to happen quickly, then you start to think, okay, I'll have a little bit more money left in my pocket. If I can set my mortgage to those lower interest rates there'll be a bit leftover. I can spend a little bit more. I can start to enjoy life a bit more rather than clawing your way from pay packet to pay packet. I can get into my local shops, I can make some of those discretionary spends I haven't been making. Is that the sense you're getting if you're in retail? And if you're somebody with a mortgage, a loan, a business loan, do you believe that business will pick up? That you can finally put your house on the market if you've been holding off until confidence improves, and that's what it is. That you will finally have a few more cents left over after the bills have been paid. Is the phone starting to ring again with people booking more jobs?   Or are we not out of the woods yet? What is your sense on the ground? If you're one of those who's looking to refix your mortgage, are you looking to six months? A year? Are you looking at two years? Are you starting to feel more positive? Are there more good news stories coming from your friends, your colleagues, those in your community?   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Jul 10, 2024 • 11min

Jarrod Kerr: Kiwibank Chief Economist on the OCR announcement, possibility of rate cuts

The Reserve Bank has softened its language in the July Monetary Policy Review, leaving the cash rate unchanged at 5.5%  It's now saying inflation will make the 1-3% target this year.  Kiwibank economists say it's a move that has increased market confidence in a rate cut later this year.  Chief Economist Jarrod Kerr told Kerre Woodham that we’ve been in a recession for a year and a half, and it’ll take some rate cuts to jolt us out of it.  He said that they are optimistic and have been telling clients that next year will be better than this year, but it will take cuts.  LISTEN ABOVE See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Jul 10, 2024 • 5min

Kerre Woodham: Labour suggesting a capital gains tax is galling

I am absolutely gobsmacked at the sheer gall of Labour even considering, suggesting, putting it out there, hey, run it up the flagpole, some form of capital gains tax might be back on the agenda. Apparently Barbara Edmonds, who is the finance spokesperson for Labour, is just putting it out there, seeing what people think. How very dare they for two glaringly obvious reasons. A) because they had every opportunity to introduce a capital gains tax or to revamp the taxation system not just once, but twice during their six long years in office. They set up the Tax Working Group to come up with recommendations to make New Zealand's tax system a fairer one, and when the working group Chair, Sir Michael Cullen, presented the final report, the Tax Working Group said, look, we support a broad-based tax on capital gains and suggested that handing back much of the $8.3 billion it might raise over five years through income tax cuts for almost all workers. The proposals, had they been adopted, would take billions from the wealthy and give most of that money back quite evenly to millions of taxpayers, which all sounds kind and fair and true to Labour’s socialist roots and not completely unreasonable. As Sir Michael said, it was wrong that wage earners were taxed on their full income while you can earn income from gains on assets and not be taxed at all. So, all very Labour and all very true to the cause. But what did Jacinda Ardern do? She ignored the recommendations and said a Capital Gains Tax wouldn't happen while she was leader.  There was another attempt when Labour had an absolute majority in its final term to introduce a Capital Gains Tax. Both David Parker, the Revenue Minister, and Finance Minister Grant Robertson were for it. They’d done a lot of work on it, they'd picked up the work that the Tax Working Group had done. Chris Hipkins knew the electorate wouldn't stand for it, so put that proposal, along with many others on the bonfire, in a desperate and futile attempt to win back voters. And not only that, demoted David Parker. Well, David Parker to be fair excused himself or recused himself from being Minister because he didn't support ditching their Capital Gains Tax. It was an opportunity in a political lifetime to make effective change. His boss didn't have the cajones for it, so David Parker stepped back and was demoted and has since sort of languishing down in the ranks now.   So they had every opportunity to introduce a Capital Gains Tax and now they're in opposition they're talking about, hey, maybe we should look at some form of inheritance tax based on the Irish Capital Acquisitions Tax. It's galling.   And B), the other reason they shouldn’t have the temerity to even suggest it, is because how could they possibly believe that New Zealanders would trust them with another brass cent? Even now, even the most deluded of fervent Labour supporters must look at the money that has been wasted. The money that is being wasted with nothing to show for it, and it makes me want to weep. If they were sensible stewards of our tax dollars, if they or any political party could show that they were sensible managers of our money, fill your boots. Take more of my tax dollars, take the money that I haven't earned, that's just come along with the rise in property values, bring in a 33% tax as Ireland is doing on unearned windfalls, ensure that everyone, not just the children of property owners, benefits from the accumulated wealth. Sure, do it, but for Labour to suggest taking more money from New Zealanders with their track record of waste etched into so many, many minds. It's going to take a very long time to forget that.   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Jul 9, 2024 • 10min

Bruce Bernacchi: Dentons Kensington Swan Partner and tax expert on Labour considering an inheritance tax

When Labour holds its next party conference at the end of the year, tax policy is likely to be near the top of its agenda.  Finance spokesperson Barbara Edmonds sent a strong signal in March that a comprehensive capital gains tax may be back on its table, questioning the fairness of the current tax system.  The Labour Party's understood to be considering whether to advocate for an inheritance tax, taking inspiration from an Irish model.  In Ireland, a 33% tax is applied to inheritance's worth more than NZ$558 thousand.  Dentons Kensington Swan Partner and tax expert Bruce Bernacchi told Kerre Woodham that he’s not surprised Labour is raising the idea of a comprehensive capital gains tax again.  He said that they campaigned on it in 2011 and 2014 and had the Tax Working Group in 2019 recommend it over a wealth or inheritance tax.  Bernacchi said that this is their opportunity to forge ahead with a coherent policy, introducing a capital gains tax that would raise money, people will understand, and it will be effective, instead of an extremely complex inheritance tax.  LISTEN ABOVE See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Jul 9, 2024 • 6min

Kerre Woodham: Making tough decisions is part of politics

The boss said to me this morning when he arrived, “Good of you to show you support for the Greens.” It's like what? He gestured to my dress. I am in a dress that is utterly, unashamedly green. All green. My Christmas dress can also come out in winter. It is not the reason I chose the dress, but I can't help feeling the teensiest bit of sympathy for the Greens. They have had a shocking run. Elizabeth Kerekere, who resigned after an investigation into her poor handling of staff and colleagues and for sending a mean text about Chloe to the wrong chat group. Oops. Julie Anne Genter and her startling and unprecedented outburst in the House, subsequent allegations of anger management issues, and a Mea culpa from her saying she’s working on bettering herself and stepping away from volatile situations.   We had Golriz Gharaman and her sticky fingers, the sudden death of Efeso Collins, the resignation of James Shaw, who is the best greenie in parliament on green issues, possibly the only person in Parliament who, well the best person in Parliament who had the best grasp of climate change, who was there in the Green Party for what you'd imagine are the right reasons. You had co-leader Marama Davidson's cancer diagnosis, and now, finally, finally, the conclusion of the investigation to Darleen Tana and exploitation of migrant worker in her business and her husband's business. Finally that's over.   Clearly, the report is damning because the Greens have been calling for Tana's head. Chloe Swarbrick spoke very well yesterday at the stand up in the Great Hall. Clearly, she is absolutely furious and feels personally betrayed. And clearly, the findings are serious because not only have the Greens told Darlene Tana in no uncertain terms to resign, they've told her to repay the salary she received while she was under investigation. What happens next? Well, acting Prime Minister Winston Peters says it's a disgrace and Darleen Tana needs to go.   WP: Well, our electoral law is fine except it's not being enforced. This is a disgrace. I mean, $42,000 of taxpayers’ money has been used by the Greens to find out what was going on when they should be spending their own money. You've got someone who has been told that she should leave Parliament. She probably won't. She’ll probably go and join the Māori Party, and then you got these purists saying we will not enforce the law that's already there now to ensure that the proportionality of Parliament remains. And it demonstrates that, you know, some parties are getting away with stuff because they've got members there claiming qualifications they never had. They were never challenged with the mainstream media. Here comes another example where this level of tolerance for an, a party that's demonstrating every day how bad it would be if they ever got to be in control, in government and nevertheless, in these circumstances, she's still there, and she should not be there and in the sense that everybody's got to be accountable and she's not. AD: Well, they're claiming that they've done everything they can, they ask her to resign from the party, she resigns. Then it's up to her to go to the speaker and resign herself. But as I said earlier, turkeys don't vote for Christmas... WP: No, no. I'm sorry, they're not doing everything they can. They could expel her and then they could make it very clear to the speaker that she's no longer a member of their party. And that would mean that she would have to stand down as an MP. All the law is right in front of them, written for such circumstances. But the question is, you chose this person that could not be trusted, and now you're saying that it's all the rest of us, and our problem about getting rid of this person, whether it's a male or female MP doesn't matter. It's simply not satisfactory. Well, that's an understatement. That was Acting Prime Minister Winston Peters talking to Andrew Dickens this morning.   The report will be released so we can see for ourselves, according to the Greens, once all the named parties have been consulted. But what to do about invoking the waka-jumping clause if she decides she's not going to leave Parliament? If she decides she's going to ignore the pleas from Chloe Swarbrick and her party. The Greens hate the Electoral Integrity Act, which is what the waka-jumping law is formally known as, despite being forced to swallow that dead rat back in 2018, the coalition agreement. There seems virtually no chance that they will use the party axing option to force Tana from Parliament, unless they have a massive change of heart.   They held back from doing so when Elizabeth Kerekere quit, but there's a big difference because this is very, very early on in the electoral cycle, we're only six months in. Elizabeth Kerekere only warmed her seat for five months. So, the taxpayer only had to pay for a useless MP for five months, which is still five months too many. Darleen Tana would be there impotent and hopeless for two years. Two years! And more, if she chooses to stage a sit-in in defiance of her former party this is the perfect time for the Green Party to dismount from their increasingly lame high horses. Idealism and zealotry are all very well and good, but you might in principle disagree with the law, but you must invoke it if you can if you don't want to rip off the taxpayer.   Making tough decisions is a part of politics and it's time the Green Party grew up and showed that pragmatism trumps idealism when it comes to protecting the voters. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Jul 8, 2024 • 6min

Barry Soper: ZB Senior Political Correspondent on the Darleen Tana scandal

Deputy Prime Minister Winston Peters doesn't feel the Greens are doing all they can in regard to Darleen Tana.  The Green Party's asked Tana to resign from parliament after receiving the investigation into alleged migrant exploitation at her husband's business.  Tana doesn't accept the findings, claiming it substantially misrepresents her level of involvement in the business.  She's resigned from the party, but not yet Parliament.  Peters says they could expel Tana, utilising the waka-jumping legislation and forcing her to step down as MP.  Senior Political Correspondent Barry Soper told Kerre Woodham that the Greens should "eat humble pie" and get rid of her through the legislation they’re vehemently opposed to.  He said that there’s no way that she’s going to make one iota of difference to the votes in parliament.  Soper said that if Darleen Tana stays on, it shows that the money is of more interest to her than what is democracy.  LISTEN ABOVE See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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