The Non-Billable Podcast

John Quinn is one of the most influential figures in modern Big Law. In this episode, he reflects on how Quinn Emanuel grew from a four-lawyer spin-out in Los Angeles into the world’s leading litigation-only firm - which is constantly rated as the the “most feared” firm. Quinn explains that the disputes-only model wasn’t fully formed on day one, but became a powerful differentiator once the firm realised that “we do one thing and we think we’re the best at that,” rather than trying to be everything to everybody.A central theme of the conversation is why specialisation - particularly being willing to act against the world’s largest commercial banks - created an “unmet need in the marketplace” that full-service firms couldn’t fill because of conflicts. Quinn also discusses how that focus helped build internal cohesion: “we’re all litigators,” he says, which avoids the fragmentation he sees inside large full-service partnerships.Quinn offers a candid comparison between litigation in the US and the UK, from the power of depositions and jury trials to the cost structures and role of regulators like the DOJ. He also shares his perspective on the evolution of Big Law, including rising concentration at the top end, the erosion of lockstep, the growth of non-equity partnerships, and why he thinks the business of law itself “hasn’t changed much,” despite constant talk of transformation.The episode closes with Quinn’s views on AI, private equity investment in law firms, and what actually makes a great lawyer. Chapters00:01 Introduction00:55 On launching Law Disrupted and staying busy03:38 Founding Quinn Emanuel and the early years05:02 Why Quinn Emanuel became a litigation only firm08:14 Suing the banks and finding an unmet market niche09:40 Opening London before the financial crisis10:07 Building the world’s largest patent litigation practice11:51 US vs UK litigation and the power of depositions16:04 Costs, risk and why US litigation works differently20:52 How Big Law has changed and why the strongest firms win22:23 Why law is a “stupid business” structurally24:26 Lockstep, partner pay and the rise of superstar compensation33:14 Private equity, external capital and law firm ownership35:11 Why AI won’t replace litigators anytime soon40:26 What makes a great lawyer and why judgment matters mostAbout Non-BillableNon-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech.Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk

Michael Pierson and Joel Ferdinand co-founded Pierson Ferdinand, an innovative, AI-native law firm shaking up the traditional model. They share their journey from launch to quickly scaling up to over 270 partners, all under a unique partner-only structure. Transparency reigns with real-time compensation algorithms, letting partners earn significantly more than in Big Law. Their approach leverages AI tools for efficiency, allowing lawyers to focus on higher-value work, while their London expansion aims to attract top talent with promises of autonomy and reduced overhead.

In this episode, we speak with Simon Leaf - a former Mishcon de Reya partner who has launched Three Points Law, a tech-enabled boutique focused on technology, sport and commercial/IP work alongside fellow former Mishcon lawyer Tom Murray. After 15 years in Big Law, Simon left to build a firm that uses AI from day one and is structured for the kind of fast, high-volume commercial work he handles.Simon explains why the traditional model no longer fits. As his hourly rate rose and teams grew around him, he felt further from clients and constrained by incentives tied to billable hours. At Three Points, he’s leaning into value-driven pricing and using AI to cut out most junior-level work so he and co-founder Tom can stay close to clients and move faster.He shares how the firm is using Legora and other AI tools across the workflow - from business development and fee proposals to standardised contract review processes. The tech isn’t perfect, he says, but in the hands of experienced lawyers it’s powerful enough that he’s “100%” confident it replaces the need for junior hires. The early traction has been strong enough that they’re already recruiting senior lawyers instead.Simon also breaks down the mechanics of starting a modern boutique: partnering with Excello for back-office and regulatory support, avoiding external capital to stay client-focused, and building a culture where he can do high-quality work without the pressures of Big Law. His advice to others thinking of making the leap? If you have the relationships and the appetite to do things differently, “go for it.”Chapters00:01 Introduction01:00 Simon’s Background01:56 Why Three Points Law?03:09 Life at Mishcon & Leading the Sports Group03:46 Inside Premier League Player Contracts06:23 Why Big Law No Longer Fit09:10 The Billable Hour Problem10:58 Going All-In on AI from Day One13:23 How AI Replaces Junior Work16:23 Moving Away from the Billable Hour19:12 Why Human Lawyers Still Matter20:18 Will More Boutiques Break Away?21:58 Three Points’ Vision and Culture23:18 How They Set Up the Firm27:41 Advice for Aspiring Boutique FoundersAbout Non-BillableNon-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech.Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk

Alongside Harvey, Legora has quickly become a frontrunner in the legal AI platform race, offering lawyers a suite of productivity tools for contract review, drafting, legal research and large-scale document analysis. Its rise has been startlingly fast. Founded just two years ago, Legora hit a $1.8 billion valuation in its October funding round and has signed a wave of major UK firms this year alone.Today on the podcast, we’re joined by Alex Fortescue-Webb, Legora’s head of UK and Ireland and head of legal engineering. Alex began his career as an M&A lawyer at CMS before moving into legal operations and managed services roles at BCG, Axiom, Thomson Reuters and EY.Alex breaks down what Legora actually does: reviewing and comparing documents in seconds, handling heavy diligence exercises, and assisting with drafting directly inside Word. He also talks through the current limits of legal AI - especially the challenge of missing context - and why complex tasks still need to be broken down into smaller steps.The conversation also covers Legora’s new Portal product, which lets firms expose richer, AI-powered work product to clients and offer controlled self-serve tools built on their own IP. Alex argues this shift will make knowledge management even more critical as delivery becomes more productised. Finally, Alex discusses Legora’s rapid momentum with leading firms, the company’s US push and recent funding round, and how he views the competitive landscape. His focus: not beating rivals, but driving real adoption so AI becomes embedded in how lawyers actually work.Chapters00:01 Introduction01:00 Welcome and Alex’s Role at Legora01:13 Inside Legal Engineering: Ex-Lawyers as the Bridge to AI03:20 What Legora Actually Does for Lawyers05:41 SPA vs Term Sheet: A Practical Legora Use Case07:48 Who’s Using Legora Most (And How Usage Varies)09:10 Where Firms See the Biggest Time Savings11:12 The Limits of Legal AI Today: Context and Zero Data Retention13:13 Solving the Context Problem and Future Integrations14:25 Portal: Rethinking Law Firm-Client Collaboration19:01 Productising Know-How and the Future of Knowledge Management22:20 Legora’s Growth Story and Adoption Playbook25:45 Funding, US Expansion, Harvey - And the Legal AI Platform RaceAbout Non-BillableNon-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech.Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk

Camilla Wallace, senior partner at Wedlake Bell, discusses her 18 years at the firm and its impressive growth to 400 lawyers. She highlights the importance of balancing the firm’s 245-year heritage with modern practices. Mental health in the legal sector is a major focus, as Camilla shares insights on pressures faced by junior lawyers and initiatives to improve psychological safety. She also addresses the ‘millionaire exodus’ from the UK and proposes a bold flat tax reform to boost investment, emphasizing the need for flexibility and purpose in today’s legal environment.

Join David Morley, former managing partner at Allen & Overy and now an investment consultant, as he delves into the surge of private equity interest in the legal sector. He shares insights on how investor sentiment has shifted suddenly, mirroring trends in accountancy. Morley discusses the need for law firms, big and small, to grasp these market forces and navigate consolidation pressures, while pondering the future landscape of legal services with PE-backed models and the implications for innovation and competition.

Siobhán Lewington, a seasoned legal headhunter at Macrae with 20 years of experience, dives into the competitive London recruitment market. She discusses the shift from a 'gentlemen's agreement' era dominated by Magic Circle firms to today's fierce rivalry, especially with US players. Siobhán highlights how private equity fuels growth and explains what makes a law firm attractive for partners, from tax structures to associate strength. She also shares valuable advice for partners considering a move, focusing on relationships over guarantees.

Harvey has become the poster child of the legal AI boom - used by over half of the top 100 US law firms and backed by more than $700 million in funding. But what does the startup actually do for lawyers day to day, and how is it turning hype into genuine impact inside Big Law firms?In this episode, John Haddock, Harvey’s chief business officer and a former Stripe exec, takes us inside the company’s rapid scale-up. He explains how a 50-person team of ex-Big Law lawyers works directly with firms to embed AI into real workflows, turning the platform into what he calls “a port of first call” for legal teams.Haddock also lifts the lid on Harvey’s Advanced Legal Researchers - a team of former Big Law lawyers who benchmark and fine-tune every new model release through what the company calls its Big Law Bench. He shares why data, not hype, is the biggest constraint in AI performance, and how Harvey’s partnership with LexisNexis is helping to close that gap.We also talk about Harvey’s recent investment from European private equity firm EQT, what the company’s expansion into Europe means for the legal market, and why Haddock saw a viral Reddit thread questioning Harvey’s adoption as a positive sign. “It’s proof we’ve crossed into the mainstream,” he says.Chapters00:01 Introduction01:00 Background on John03:30 Understanding Harvey's Product and Customer Engagement06:12 The Role of Chief Business Officer at Harvey09:02 How Harvey Empowers Lawyers12:11 Partnership with LexisNexis 17:54 Fine-Tuning AI Models for Legal 21:38 The Buy vs. Build Debate in Legal Tech24:20 EQT Investment and European Market Expansion26:37 Competition in the Legal AI Landscape28:28 Scaling Operations and Talent Acquisition31:39 Onboarding and Change Management in Legal AI32:41 Contextualising Legal AI for Enhanced Productivity36:12 The Future of Integrated Legal Workspaces38:36 The Reddit Thread and Building Trust in AI42:24 Challenges of Scaling and Hiring in a Growing CompanyAbout Non-BillableNon-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech.Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk

Few people have had a closer view of the modern City law market than Charlie Geffen. As former senior partner at Ashurst, he helped build one of London’s top private equity practices before moving to Gibson Dunn in 2014, where he became global co-chair of private equity. Today, he splits his time between chairing the taskforce getting the UK ready for T+1 settlement of financial trades, a senior position at the University of Surrey and occasionally weighing in on the big debates shaping the profession - earlier this year, he sparked discussion with a letter to the Financial Times, defending the decision by some firms to strike deals with the Trump administration. In this conversation, Charlie looks back at four decades of transformation in Big Law - from globalisation and specialisation to the rise of US firms that now dominate the global elite. He explains why American firms’ structure, scale and domestic market have given them a lasting advantage, and why, in his words, “the global Magic Circle is entirely American.”We also discuss the major transatlantic mergers reshaping the landscape, including A&O Shearman and Herbert Smith Freehills-Kramer Levin, and what the likes of Ashurst can realistically do to compete. Charlie reflects on his own experience leading Ashurst through its growth years, its failed US merger talks, and how the firm ultimately found its footing through reinvention.Finally, he shares his take on the next phase of disruption: how AI and private equity could drive a wave of consolidation, why law firms will need far fewer people in future, and why, despite it all, he still sees enduring value in the partnership model - and in knowing exactly what your firm is, and what it isn’t trying to be.Chapters00:01 Introduction01:30 Evolution of the Legal Market06:45 Comparative Analysis of US and UK Law Firms09:44 The Rise of US Firms12:27 Current Landscape of UK Law Firms17:26 Strategic Insights for UK Firms19:45 The Rise of Private Equity22:03 Strategic Decisions in Law Firms27:23 Transatlantic Mergers and Their Implications29:45 Big Law Firms Response To Trump Executive Orders37:51 The Future of the Legal Market: AI and ConsolidationAbout Non-BillableNon-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech.Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk

Sebastian Lach, a partner at Hogan Lovells and head of their legal tech subsidiary ELTEMATE, discusses his journey from white-collar crime to spearheading a 100-person tech team. He emphasizes the importance of specialized AI tools tailored for legal practices, rejecting the idea of one-size-fits-all solutions. Sebastian reveals how ELTEMATE was born from an internal survey and aims to deliver precise, efficient results. He also shares insights about the competitive landscape of legal technology and the essential skills future lawyers must adopt.