The Non-Billable Podcast

In this episode, we sit down with Richard Mabey, the co-founder and CEO of Juro. A former Freshfields lawyer, Richard left private practice in 2013 to pursue an MBA and later joined LegalZoom, before launching Juro in 2016. Nearly a decade on, the company is now one of Europe’s leading legal tech startups, helping fast-scaling businesses automate their contract processes and manage legal work with a radically different approach.Richard talks candidly about his founder journey - from teaching himself to code in the early days, to building a company that's now helping hundreds of legal teams deploy AI agents directly into tools like Slack and Microsoft Teams. We dig into how Juro thinks differently about contract lifecycle management, why Mabey believes the next generation of legal work will be agent-led, and what it really takes to get lawyers to embrace automation.We also cover why Mabey thinks legal teams are being asked to do more with less, how agentic AI is already substituting junior-level tasks, and why the CLM category may be ripe for consolidation. Whether you're building legal tech, working in-house, or trying to understand what the future of legal work might look like, this episode is full of insight from one of the sector’s most thoughtful founders.Chapters00:30 Introduction: From Freshfields to Founding Juro03:44 Starting Small: Building a Legal Tech Community07:00 What Scale-Up GCs Really Care About10:15 The Lawyer’s Role in an AI-First World13:52 The Impact of Agentic AI on In-House Teams17:05 The Training Problem for Junior Lawyers21:10 The End of the Law Firm Pyramid?24:30 How Juro’s Agents Actually Work27:48 Replacing Low-Value Work with Automation30:33 From Founder Doubts to Product Inflection34:10 Building a Legal Tech Startup in the "Dark Ages"36:45 Fundraising Lessons and Conviction in the Problem39:30 How Juro Differs from Traditional CLMs42:58 Defining the Agentic AI Opportunity44:42 Why Legal Tech Will Consolidate (Eventually)46:35 The Vision for Juro and the Future of Legal WorkAbout Non-BillableNon-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech.Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk

Ian Bagshaw is a City law private equity partner now heading up the London office of US law firm Perkins Coie which he launched in 2024. A highly experienced corporate lawyer with nearly 30 years in the field, he is recognised for his leadership in the private equity market at both UK and US law firms.Before joining Perkins Coie, he was co-head of private equity at White & Case, where he built one of London’s top private equity practices. Before that, he held senior roles at Linklaters (co-head of private equity) and was also a partner at Clifford Chance.In this conversation, Ian discusses his return to law to lead Perkins Coie's launch in London, emphasising the strategic timing and focus on tech clients and founders. He shares insights on building a startup culture within the firm, the importance of talent experience, and the impact of private capital on the legal industry. Ian outlines his vision for the future of Perkins in Europe, highlighting the need for a differentiated approach in a competitive market.Chapters00:40 Introduction to Perkins Coie and London Launch06:10 Focus on Tech Clients and Founders13:10 Building a Startup Culture in a Law Firm17:50 Training and Development Strategies for Talent19:10 Vision for Perkins Coie in the Next Decade22:20 Private Capital’s Impact on Big Law28:44 Investment Dynamics and the Future of Law Firms34:25 The Changing Landscape of Legal Practice37:20 Advice for Junior LawyersAbout Non-BillableNon-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals, brought to you by a small team of former City lawyers and finance professionals.Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk

Shruti Ajitsaria is a partner at A&O Shearman and the head of Fuse, the firm’s legal tech incubator. Since launching Fuse in 2017, Shruti has helped A&O engage with over 60 startups, run dozens of pilots, and turn legal tech from a buzzword into a real driver of value for both lawyers and clients.In this conversation, Shruti shares how she went from credit derivatives lawyer to leading one of the legal industry's most ambitious innovation programmes. She explains how Fuse works behind the scenes, why A&O Shearman was willing to take a risk on her idea, and what separates the legal tech startups that scale from those that stall.We also get into how the merger with Shearman & Sterling is expanding Fuse’s reach, what clients really expect from law firms when it comes to tech, and why true innovation in legal isn’t just about adopting tools, but creating a culture that’s open to change.Whether you’re a founder looking to partner with firms, a lawyer curious about the future of your role, or just someone interested in how a 100-year-old organisation builds like a startup - this conversation is well worth a listen.Chapters00:40 From Credit Derivatives to Legal Tech03:20 How Fuse Was Born06:17 Launching Fuse and Becoming Partner08:15 What Makes a Startup Right for Fuse09:40 Inside the Incubator: How Startups Work with A&O12:00 Definely, StructureFlow & Building Success Stories14:23 The Anatomy of a Great Legal Tech Founder17:50 Fuse’s Impact Inside the Firm20:41 Legal Tech as Strategy22:25 Innovation Starts at the Top26:26 The A&O Shearman Merger and US Expansion28:23 What Clients Expect in 202520:05 Where Legal Tech Disruption Hits First32:18 Bonus Round: Trends, Hype, and Career AdviceAbout Non-BillableNon-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals, brought to you by a small team of former City lawyers and finance professionals.Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk

In this episode, we speak with Philip Young - a former City litigation partner, founder of boutique firm Cooke, Young & Keidan, and now co-founder of Garfield AI, the first AI-powered law firm to gain regulatory approval from the Solicitors Regulation Authority (SRA).Young shares the origin story behind Garfield, which began as a personal frustration with how hard it was for small businesses to recover unpaid debts - even when the law was clearly on their side. After retiring from CYK and taking a road trip across America, he encountered the first wave of generative AI tools and quickly saw the opportunity to build something game-changing: an intelligent assistant capable of running an entire small claims case, from letter before action to trial bundle.We go deep on how Garfield works, the SRA’s lengthy but supportive approval process, and what it means for the legal industry that a product like this now exists. Young also explains why concerns about overwhelming the small claims courts are misplaced, how he sees AI improving rather than replacing legal work, and why he remains cautious about VC money despite a flurry of inbound interest.With candid insights on access to justice, the role of human oversight, and how legal services might be delivered in the next decade, this is a conversation about a whole new category of legal services as much as it is about a new AI tool.Chapters00:45 From Law to Entrepreneurship: Philip Young's Journey11:57 The Birth of Garfield AI: Inspiration and Development24:13 Access to Justice and AI's Role28:21 SRA Approval Process and Regulatory Challenges33:30 Garfield's Vision and Future Products39:45 The Future of Law and AI's Impact on Junior Lawyers43:30 Finding Garfield and the Story Behind the NameAbout Non-BillableNon-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals, brought to you by a small team of former City lawyers and finance professionals.Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk

Kerry Westland, Partner and Head of Innovation at Addleshaw Goddard, leads a dynamic 70-person team dedicated to reshaping legal services through technology. She discusses her evolution from paralegal to innovation leader, the impactful rise of their internal AI tool AGPT, and the firm's strategy in blending vendor tech with homegrown solutions. Kerry also explores the changing landscape of legal practices, balancing tech and human roles, and the importance of transparency in pricing models, all while envisioning the future of law.

In this episode, we sit down with Peter Limbert, general counsel at Fulham Football Club, to explore what it really means to be the top lawyer at a Premier League football club. From leading transfer negotiations to protecting the club's brand and navigating ever-evolving regulations, Peter shares a rare look into one of the most complex in-house legal roles in the sports industry.Peter discusses the intricacies of player transfers - including how deals are structured, what can go wrong, and why payment provisions and sell-on clauses are among the most hotly contested parts of any agreement. He also breaks down the legal considerations behind shirt sponsorships, brand partnerships, and stadium development, as well as how Fulham enforces its intellectual property rights around the globe.We also dive into the personal side of the job: how Peter transitioned from aspiring professional footballer to City litigator to Fulham’s first GC, and why he believes staying calm under pressure is the most underrated skill in sports law. He opens up about the realities of working in a highly competitive, emotionally charged environment - where results on the pitch can shape the legal department's week.Whether you're an in-house lawyer, a sports law enthusiast, or just curious how Premier League clubs really operate behind the scenes, this is an unmissable conversation with someone at the heart of it all.Chapters00:40 From Football to Law: Peter's Journey05:09 Transitioning to Fulham FC: The In-House Experience08:13 The Role of Legal in Football: A Day in the Life11:45 Navigating Legal Challenges in Premier League Football16:27 Broadcasting Rights and Sponsorship: Revenue Streams26:21 Understanding Player Transfers: The Legal Process29:31 Jurisdiction and Legal Framework in Football Transfers31:41 Mitigating Risks in Transfer Agreements34:00 Funding and Financial Structures of Transfers35:52 Challenges in Negotiating Transfer Agreements38:03 The Role and Power of Agents in Transfers39:38 Understanding Transfer Deadline Dynamics44:14 The Evolving Landscape of Sports Law46:31 The Premier League: A Thriving Product48:37 Qualities of a Successful In-House Lawyer49:46 Advice for Aspiring Sports Lawyers51:35 Key Contract Clauses in Sports Law52:32 The Importance of Pragmatism in Sports Law54:41 Recommended Reading for Sports LawyersAbout Non-BillableNon-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals, brought to you by a small team of former City lawyers and finance professionals.Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk/

In this conversation, we speak with Tom Goodhead, managing partner of Pogust Goodhead, one of the UK's fastest-growing litigation firms.Tom shares the extraordinary story behind the firm’s rise - from his early days as a junior barrister handling slip-and-trip cases in Tesco to leading the largest class action in British legal history against mining giant BHP. Speaking from Rio de Janeiro, Tom describes how a chance meeting with a Brazilian lawyer fighting for 6,000 fishermen turned into a sprawling international legal battle, ultimately securing a $550 million litigation funding deal with US hedge fund Gramercy.He explains how Pogust Goodhead built the infrastructure to service tens of thousands of claimants across continents, why managing mass litigation is more like running a political campaign than a law firm, and how his team has gone head-to-head with a roster of elite firms including Slaughter and May, White & Case and Herbert Smith Freehills.Tom also discusses how he thinks about litigation funding conflicts, what it takes to maintain trust with funders, and how Pogust Goodhead is using an innovative synthetic equity scheme to incentivise its lawyers to bet on the firm’s success. He shares his broader vision for the future: building a global claimant-side powerhouse capable of challenging corporate giants the way Kirkland & Ellis or Quinn Emanuel have dominated commercial defence work.Chapters 00:50 Introduction to the BHP Case02:08 The Journey to the Case06:01 Client Management in Class Actions10:16 The Scale of the Environmental Disaster14:00 Commercial Stakes and Legal Strategies18:01 Litigation Funding and Financial Strategies23:59 Challenges and Restructuring Decisions30:03 Transformative Legal Battles: The BHP Case34:25 Navigating Conflicts with Litigation Funders41:16 Impact of PACCAR on the Funding Industry47:05 Attracting and Retaining Legal Talent56:08 Vision for the Future of Pogust GoodheadAbout Non-BillableNon-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals, brought to you by a small team of former City lawyers and finance professionals.Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk/

In this episode, we speak with Nnamdi Emelifeonwu, a former Freshfields associate and now co-founder of Definely - one of the UK’s most exciting legal tech companies. Nnamdi traces his journey building a legal career at a Magic Circle firm and ultimately leaving it all behind to solve a problem he first encountered while working alongside his visually impaired colleague Feargus MacDaeid who would become his co-founder.Nnamdi shares the story of how he and Feargus turned an initial prototype into a Microsoft Word plug-in - and eventually a fast-growing platform now used by over 100 corporate customers like BT and JPMorgan, and law firm giants including A&O Shearman, Cravath and Milbank.He discusses the steep learning curve of becoming a founder without a technical background, the early product iterations and how the startup found its first champions at firms like A&O and clients like Deloitte. He also opens up about the realities of startup life: fundraising, cash flow pressure, making hiring mistakes, and learning to let go of perfectionism - particularly as a lawyer-turned-founder.With Definely now backed by $7 million in Series A funding from Octopus Ventures and expanding into the US, Nnamdi reflects on the changing role of lawyers in the age of AI and why the future of the profession depends on embracing legal tech. He also offers candid advice for lawyers considering a move into entrepreneurship, including the importance of resilience, self-belief and maintaining a growth mindset.Chapters00:45 Journey into Law: Early Influences and Aspirations03:29 Training at Freshfields: The Big Law Experience06:23 The Birth of Definely: Identifying a Problem09:29 Building the First Prototype: A Solution for Accessibility12:38 From Idea to Startup: The Entrepreneurial Leap15:26 Securing Initial Funding: The First Angel Investment18:38 Developing the Product: Iteration and Feedback21:35 Gaining Traction: Signing First Customers23:34 Navigating Early Challenges: Building Relationships with Clients26:25 Leveraging Legal Expertise: Understanding User Needs29:57 The Importance of Fundraising in Entrepreneurship34:36 Shifting Mindsets: From Lawyer to Entrepreneur36:55 Evolution of the Product: From Definitions to Comprehensive Solutions39:20 Business Model and Customer Base: Focusing on B2B42:21 Growth Metrics and Future Vision44:18 Navigating Competition in Legal Tech49:02 The Role of AI in the Future of Law52:49 Challenges and Advice for Transitioning to Legal Tech55:40 Learning from Mistakes: Hiring and Industry InsightsAbout Non-BillableNon-Billable is an email newsletter and media company for modern legal professionals, brought to you by a small team of former City lawyers and finance professionals.Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk/

This is a conversation with Jonathan Watmough. Jonathan became managing partner of City firm RPC at just 38. Over the next decade, he repositioned it through the global financial crisis, a shifting legal market and the rise of aggressive lateral hiring. He stepped down in 2016, and has since worn several hats: performance coach, consultant and most recently, non-executive chair of the newly independent litigation specialist Rosenblatt.He recently published ‘How to Thrive in a Commercial Law Firm’, a book gaining traction among mid-career lawyers and law firm leaders and which is all about helping lawyers make the most of their careers. In this conversation, Jonathan shares his journey from an accidental lawyer to a managing partner at RPC, discussing the challenges and opportunities within the legal profession. He emphasises the importance of differentiation, leadership, and understanding client needs. He also highlights the significance of emotional intelligence and relationship-building in achieving success in law. He provides insights from his book, and offers practical advice for junior lawyers on navigating their careers and finding their fit within the world of commercial law.Chapters00:40 Introduction to Jonathan 03:42 The Accidental Lawyer06:31 Navigating the Legal Landscape09:29 Opportunities in Crisis12:35 Leadership Lessons from RPC15:37 Role at Rosenblatt and Lessons for Listed Firms18:47 The Future of Law Firms21:38 Insights from 'How to Thrive in a Commercial Law Firm'32:53 The Importance of Commercial Awareness in Law40:12 Transitioning from Lawyer to Business Person47:22 Work-Life Balance in Legal Careers55:17 Future Client Needs and Career AdviceAbout Non-BillableNon-Billable is an email newsletter and media company for modern legal professionals, brought to you by a small team of former City lawyers and finance professionals.Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk/

In this engaging conversation, Jack Shepherd, a former Freshfields lawyer now leading innovations at iManage, shares his unique insights on AI in the legal field. He emphasizes practical applications of technology that truly address lawyers' daily challenges, rather than succumbing to AI hype. Jack champions the importance of project management skills and strategic AI adoption to enhance efficiency without undermining critical thinking. He also discusses how junior lawyers can future-proof their careers in this rapidly evolving landscape.