Law://WhatsNext

This week we sat down with Dan Hunter, Executive Dean of the Dickson Poon School of Law at King's College London and serial legal tech entrepreneur. Dan's journey spans academia across three continents, four successful startups (including his current venture GraceView), and decades of research on the cognitive science of legal reasoning. As both an educator training the next generation of lawyers and an entrepreneur building AI-powered legal solutions, he offers a unique dual perspective on the transformation underway across knowledge work.Key Takeaways1. The Learning Paradox: AI Makes Us Feel Smarter While Making Us DumberStudents using large language models consistently perform better on assignments and believe they're learning more - but when the AI is removed, they've retained virtually nothing. This creates a dangerous illusion of competence (sycophantic models propagate this!) that law schools and firms must address through new assessment methods and training approaches.2. We're Heading Toward a "Barbell" Legal ProfessionTraditional pyramid law firm structures will collapse as AI automates much of the work. Dan believes the future involves senior lawyers managing client relationships at the top, AI agents handling routine tasks in the middle, and "legal engineers" swarming around validating AI outputs and steering the models.3. Entry-Level Legal Jobs Are Already DisappearingWe discuss the recent Stanford research "Canaries in the Coal Mine? Six Facts about the Recent Employment Effects of Artificial Intelligence" by Erik Brynjolfsson, Bharat Chandar, and Ruyu Chen, Stanford Digital Economy Lab (2025) - The landmark study using ADP payroll data showing 13% employment decline for young workers in AI-exposed occupations.Interested in more?If you found this episode interesting, please like, subscribe to the show, comment, and share! For more thought-provoking content at the intersection of law and technology, head to our Law://WhatsNext home for:Focused conversations with leading practitioners, technologists, and educatorsDeep dives into the intersection of law, technology, and organisational behaviourPractical analysis and visualisation of how AI is augmenting our potential

We have fun sitting down with Dana Rao (the former General Counsel and Chief Trust Officer at Adobe) - where we cover the implications of AI progress on: regulatory frameworks and geopolitics; copyright law; deepfakes - including content proliferation and authenticity; fair use and Dana’s take on the current class action lawsuits in the US; and Dana’s proposals for a new impressionistic right for creators to stave off the economic harms of their work being imitated. The conversation provided us with a fascinating insight into life at Adobe at the moment the performance of these generative models really began to take-off, and it was clear to us that Dana and his team played a pivotal role in shaping not only what kind of products Adobe went on to develop but how they would be distributed and consumed by their users!This episode draws on Dana's extensive experience at the intersection of technology, law and policy. Here are the key references and cases we discussed:Legal Cases:Andy Warhol Foundation for Visual Arts, Inc. v. Goldsmith, 598 U.S. 508 (2023) -  The Supreme Court case that Dana argues will have an influence in the outcome of AI fair use battles (which are focussed on economic competition between uses)Thomson Reuters Enterprise Centre GmbH v. Ross Intelligence Inc., No. - 1:20-CV-613-SB (D. Del. Feb. 11, 2025) - The "Westlaw case" Dana mentioned where the judge initially ruled for the AI company but changed his mind after better understanding the technologyDana's Policy Work:Senate Judiciary Committee Testimony (July 12, 2023) - Dana's appearance before the Senate Subcommittee on Intellectual Property hearing titled "Artificial Intelligence and Intellectual Property – Part II: Copyright"Adobe's Proposed Anti-Impersonation Law - Dana's legislative proposal for federal protection against AI-powered style imitationContent Authenticity Standards:Content Authenticity Initiative (CAI) - Adobe-founded initiative with over 5,000 members working to establish content provenance standardsCoalition for Content Provenance and Authenticity (C2PA) - The formal standards organization co-founded by Adobe, Microsoft, Intel, Arm, BBC, and Truepic under the Linux FoundationC2PA Implementation in Google Pixel Phones - Recent adoption of content authenticity standards in consumer devicesIf you found this episode of Law://WhatsNext interesting, please rate, subscribe, comment, and share!

Sigge Labor, CTO at Legora, and Jacob Johnsson, Legal Engineer, dive into the revolutionary capabilities of GPT-5. They discuss how this new model enhances legal reasoning and how their battle evaluations show GPT-5 outperforms other models over 80% of the time. The conversation also explores GPT-5's steerability, enabling more interactive workflows that empower lawyers in their tasks. With real-time insights from one of the fastest-growing AI companies, this chat shines a light on the future of legal tech and its transformative potential.

Emergency drop: we grabbed Jake Jones (CPO & Co-Founder, Flank) for a quick-fire reaction to OpenAI’s ChatGPT-5 launch. We cover his day-one impressions, what it means for legal products (including Flank), and the downstream implications for how legal work gets done. A short detour from our usual programming—did you enjoy this rapid-response format? If yes, please like, rate, and share to help Law://WhatsNext reach more people.

In this compelling episode of Law://WhatsNext, hosts Tom & Alex dive into the transformative shifts underway in legal education and junior lawyer development. Joined by three visionary voices - Lucie Allen (Managing Director, Barbri), Rob Elvin (Partner, Squire Patton Boggs), and Sophie Correia (Trainee Solicitor, TravelPerk) - the discussion explores provocative ideas reshaping what it means to be a lawyer.Do Lawyers Even Need to Know the Law?Sophie Correia challenges the traditional emphasis on memorisation and technical rules in legal education. Reflecting on her real-world experiences at a tech scale-up, Sophie argues that success hinges more on human skills such as communication, empathy, and trust-building, rather than recalling obscure statutes.The Flawed Incentives of Legal TrainingRob Elvin sheds light on systemic issues stemming from the billable hour model, which prioritises short-term profitability over effective mentoring. He advocates for a groundbreaking solution: linking career progression directly to the quality of trainee supervision, potentially transforming mentorship from a luxury into an essential career catalyst.The AI DisconnectLucie Allen identifies a critical gap in legal education - the absence of meaningful engagement with AI and technology. Despite these tools reshaping the profession, current frameworks like the SQE neglect to equip trainees adequately for technological realities, posing a substantial risk to their future readiness.Three Ideas to Transform Legal Education:Continuous Learning as the New Norm: Education doesn't stop at qualification. Lucie emphasises the necessity of lifelong learning, driven by relentless curiosity and adaptation to change.Human Skills Set Lawyers Apart: Sophie highlights the enduring value of human-centric capabilities—understanding people, navigating complexity, and ethical reasoning—as indispensable traits lawyers must cultivate.Systemic Change through Collective Responsibility: Rob, Lucie, and Sophie underline the importance of personal agency and collaborative effort in driving substantial reform across education, training, and regulatory frameworks.A Hopeful Path ForwardUltimately, the podcast champions a future in which tomorrow’s lawyers blend ethical judgment, technological proficiency, and interpersonal insight, prompting listeners to reconsider not whether lawyers need to know the law, but rather what precisely they need to know—and how to prepare them best for the evolving landscape.Join us for an inspiring conversation that challenges conventional wisdom and points toward an empowered, adaptable, and human-centred future for the legal profession.

In this quarterly deep-dive, we reconnect with Peter Duffy, the brilliant mind behind the Legal Tech Trends newsletter, for our regular temperature check on what's actually happening in the legal technology landscape. Peter's ability to cut through the hype and identify real trends, combined with his practical experience helping organisations actually adopt AI, makes this a masterclass in separating signal from noise.Whether you're trying to understand why adoption is lagging despite the excitement, wondering about the strategic implications of billion-dollar acquisitions, or simply want to understand what Silicon Valley's sudden fascination with legal really means, this conversation hopefully delivers some insight.The episode kicks off with a sobering look at AI adoption across the legal profession, and the numbers might surprise you. Peter walks us through recent surveys from Bain and BCG that paint a picture quite different from the hype we're all hearing about at conferences/or on LinkedIn.The acquisition and partnership landscape is absolutely wild right now, and we break down the strategic implications of:Clio's $1 billion acquisition of vLexEudia's acquisition of the Irish ALSP Johnson HannaHarvey's strategic alliance with LexisNexisWe end discussing some personal topics of interest, including:Y Combinator's explicit call-out for startups to build "full stack AI companies" – using law firms as their prime example;The Builders Playbook: 2025 State of AI Report; andthe implications of the recent order in the New York Times v. OpenAI caseIf you found this episode interesting, please do like, subscribe, comment, and share! It helps the show rank and reach more people.. Best, Alex & Tom

We sit down with Sam Lewis, Senior Product & Privacy Counsel at Canva, who kicks things off by asking us the most important question of 2025: "If you had to be a piece of cutlery, what would you be?" Spoiler alert: Sam's a spoon (warm, empathetic, part of the emotional support crew), while Tom and Alex predictably went fork (practical go-getters with zero patience for fluff).Beyond the viral TikTok personality tests, Sam delivers cutting-edge insights into product counsel work at a company that's been building AI since 2017 - well before it was trendy. With Canva's community using AI tools over 18 billion times, Sam has become a thought leader on navigating the complex intersection of law, privacy, and AI-native product development.What makes this conversation essential listening:Sam reveals how legal teams at AI-first companies don't just manage risk - they can drive growth. Three Key Takeaways:1. Trust is the Ultimate Competitive Advantage: In an era where AI capabilities are rapidly commoditizing, trust becomes the differentiator. Sam reveals how Canva aims to be one of the world's most trusted platforms, this isn't just about compliance - it's about building products people love and companies trust.2. Privacy Instincts Are Non-Negotiable in AI-First Companies: Sam makes it clear: "I don't think it's possible to advise on AI without understanding privacy." AI is built on data, and privacy laws determine what's fair, legal, and ethical - making strong privacy instincts essential for knowing when to green light and when to pause in AI-native environments.3. Product Counsel Is Risk-Aware, Not Risk-Averse: Sam champions a philosophy that's become essential for AI-first companies: taking a risk-aware rather than risk-averse approach. To Sam this means asking the right questions, reducing unnecessary friction, and helping teams figure out how to move forward safely - often saying "how can we" instead of "we can't."The conversation touches on Canva's pioneering "AI everywhere" culture (where AI impact is now part of performance reviews), Sam's love for loud parenting, and her admiration for @sophworkbaby on Instagram (a fellow Aussie and ex-Googler) delivering plain unfiltered career insights.If you found this episode interesting, please do like, subscribe, comment, and share! It helps the show rank and reach more people.. Best, Alex & Tom

Ross McNairn, CEO and Founder of Wordsmith, brings a rare perspective to legal tech - lawyer turned software engineer turned CTO at companies like Skyscanner and TravelPerk. Our conversation spans Ross's transition from being a trainee solicitor navigating Scottish estate law to leading one of the world's fastest-growing legal AI companies, his philosophy on building lasting products over quick wins, and why he believes we're entering the era of "legal engineering."What We Cover:Building Philosophy: Why Ross spent a year quietly iterating rather than rushing to market with an MVP wrapper.The UK Opportunity: How Britain's legal heritage and technical talent create untapped advantages in the AI race.Legal Engineering Revolution: Ross's five-level competency framework transforming lawyers into product-minded operators.Market Evolution: Why the generalist legal AI era is ending and specialization is the future.Three Key Takeaways:1. Quality Over Speed Wins Long-Term: Ross's mantra: "I don't want to be the first tool that everybody buys. I want to be the last tool that they buy." While competitors rush wrappers to market, disciplined product development with 95% engineers and lawyers creates lasting competitive advantages through superior reliability and user experience.2. Legal Engineering is the New Frontier: The future belongs to lawyers who think like product managers. Ross describes customers building sophisticated systems with 50+ interconnected agents—a glimpse into legal practice where workflow orchestration, not individual task automation, drives value for in-house teams managing constant business demands.3. Invisible Quality Creates Unbeatable Moats: While everyone debates model capabilities, Wordsmith are developing rigorous "evals" testing frameworks defining world-class legal outputs. If you found this episode interesting, please like, subscribe, comment, and share!

In our first "on record" informal coffee-style conversation with a fellow in-house team, we catch up with Kshitij (KD) Dua (Director of Legal Ops) and Priyam Bhargava (Senior Corporate Counsel) from HashiCorp (an IBM company). Having witnessed HashiCorp's extraordinary journey from startup through series rounds, IPO, and ultimately IBM acquisition, this dynamic duo bring unique insights and perspectives on the importance of the lawyer x legal ops dynamic/relationship; legal AI adoption and what happens when traditional SaaS metrics meet an intelligence explosion.Our conversation emerges following their super engaging "Influencing Without Authority" presentation at CLOC CGI in Las Vegas last month.What We Cover:Partnership Genesis: How their collaboration began with Priyam's proactive approach to improving a core revenue workflow.The ROI Challenge: Why traditional SaaS metrics may become meaningless as AI inference costs reshape enterprise economics.AI Integration: How curiosity trumps linear thinking, from brainstorming negotiations to governance frameworks.Career Evolution: International journeys from banking to law firms to HashiCorp's hypergrowth environmentIf you found this episode interesting, please like, subscribe, comment, and share! For more thought-provoking content at the intersection of law and technology, head to https://lawwhatsnext.substack.com/ for:Focused conversations with leading practitioners, technologists, and educatorsDeep dives into the intersection of law, technology, and organisational behaviourPractical analysis and visualisation of how AI is augmenting our potential

Jessica Block, Executive Vice President at Factor, is a former theater major turned legal tech innovator. She discusses the complexities of leading in a tech-transforming environment, comparing it to quantum mechanics. Jessica shares insights on Factor's AI-first approach to legal workflows, emphasizing collaboration and discovery. She reflects on her unique journey from theater to eDiscovery, highlighting invaluable skills acquired along the way. The conversation also dives into innovative tools for contract management and the need for adaptability and strategic thinking in the evolving legal landscape.