Law://WhatsNext

We sit down with Stephan Breidenbach, co-founder of the Rulemapping Group and a German scholar who's been quietly revolutionising how we think about law, technology, and democratic governance since the early 2000s.What started as a teaching tool to help law students visualise complex legal reasoning has evolved into something far more ambitious: a comprehensive system for transforming laws into executable code that maintains human oversight while dramatically improving access to justice.Stephan's present work spans three critical areas: decision automation (turning legal rules into fast, transparent systems), rule-based AI (supporting human lawyers with explainable reasoning), and law as code (drafting legislation that's both human and machine-readable from day one).Some of our highlights from the conversation:The Transparency Imperative: "I would never trust an LLM with a legal process because it's confabulating" Stephan declares, highlighting why the Rulemapping approach prioritises explainable AI over black-box solutions. Their system lets human decision-makers see exactly how the AI reached its conclusions – a "zoom in, zoom out" process that mirrors how lawyers naturally think.Democracy-First Technology: Unlike Silicon Valley's "move fast and break things" mentality, Stephan advocates for keeping humans in the loop even when AI becomes more accurate: "I think it's very important for trust in the legal system and therefore in a democratic system that there are human beings, even if they make worse decisions."Access to Justice at Scale: Through real-world deployments like processing 500,000 diesel emission scandal cases and serving as Europe's first certified Digital Services Act dispute resolution body, Rulemapping demonstrates how thoughtful automation can make legal systems accessible to everyone, not just those who can afford lawyers.We also explore the behavioural risks of over-relying on automated systems, the potential for "law as code" to improve democratic participation, and Stephan's vision of embedded law that serves citizens rather than bureaucracy.If you found this episode interesting, please like, subscribe, comment, and share! For more thought-provoking content at the intersection of law and technology, head to https://lawwhatsnext.substack.com/ for more of the same.

We catch up with Ben Martin, the former Director of Privacy at Trustpilot and author of "GDPR for Startups," who's currently living his best life somewhere in the Estonian wilderness with a camper van, fishing rod, and blessed freedom from subject access requests. Having built privacy programs at high-growth companies like Trustpilot, Ovo Energy, and King Digital Entertainment, Ben brings a refreshingly practical perspective to privacy law that goes way beyond compliance theatre.From his sabbatical perch in the Nordics, he reflects on everything from why GDPR hasn't quite delivered its promised outcomes to how privacy lawyers are uniquely positioned to lead AI governance.What We Cover:The Sabbatical Chronicles: Ben's epic Nordic adventure and why stepping away from work sometimes gives you the clearest perspective on itPrivacy Program Building: Moving from compliance theatre to business enablement, and why good privacy programs start with genuine curiosity about productsGDPR Reality Check: Why the regulation might not have quite yet delivered its intended outcomes and the types of privacy lawyers and approaches Ben sees in practiceAI Governance Evolution: How privacy professionals are naturally stepping into AI oversight roles and what new skills they need to developTechnical Literacy: The importance of understanding what your business actually builds and Ben's practical approach to learning complex technical conceptsKey References:GDPR for Startups - Ben's practical guide to building privacy programs in high-growth companiesField Fisher Privacy Newsletter - Legal developments summary that Ben recommends for staying currentHard Fork Podcast - Ben's go-to for broad tech and AI developmentsLovable - The AI coding platform Ben's been experimenting with to build his habit tracker (and recruit his girlfriend as user number one)If you found this episode interesting, please like, subscribe, comment, and share! For more thought-provoking conversations at the intersection of law and technology, head to https://lawwhatsnext.substack.com/.

This week we sat down with Dan Hunter, Executive Dean of the Dickson Poon School of Law at King's College London and serial legal tech entrepreneur. Dan's journey spans academia across three continents, four successful startups (including his current venture GraceView), and decades of research on the cognitive science of legal reasoning. As both an educator training the next generation of lawyers and an entrepreneur building AI-powered legal solutions, he offers a unique dual perspective on the transformation underway across knowledge work.Key Takeaways1. The Learning Paradox: AI Makes Us Feel Smarter While Making Us DumberStudents using large language models consistently perform better on assignments and believe they're learning more - but when the AI is removed, they've retained virtually nothing. This creates a dangerous illusion of competence (sycophantic models propagate this!) that law schools and firms must address through new assessment methods and training approaches.2. We're Heading Toward a "Barbell" Legal ProfessionTraditional pyramid law firm structures will collapse as AI automates much of the work. Dan believes the future involves senior lawyers managing client relationships at the top, AI agents handling routine tasks in the middle, and "legal engineers" swarming around validating AI outputs and steering the models.3. Entry-Level Legal Jobs Are Already DisappearingWe discuss the recent Stanford research "Canaries in the Coal Mine? Six Facts about the Recent Employment Effects of Artificial Intelligence" by Erik Brynjolfsson, Bharat Chandar, and Ruyu Chen, Stanford Digital Economy Lab (2025) - The landmark study using ADP payroll data showing 13% employment decline for young workers in AI-exposed occupations.Interested in more?If you found this episode interesting, please like, subscribe to the show, comment, and share! For more thought-provoking content at the intersection of law and technology, head to our Law://WhatsNext home for:Focused conversations with leading practitioners, technologists, and educatorsDeep dives into the intersection of law, technology, and organisational behaviourPractical analysis and visualisation of how AI is augmenting our potential

We have fun sitting down with Dana Rao (the former General Counsel and Chief Trust Officer at Adobe) - where we cover the implications of AI progress on: regulatory frameworks and geopolitics; copyright law; deepfakes - including content proliferation and authenticity; fair use and Dana’s take on the current class action lawsuits in the US; and Dana’s proposals for a new impressionistic right for creators to stave off the economic harms of their work being imitated. The conversation provided us with a fascinating insight into life at Adobe at the moment the performance of these generative models really began to take-off, and it was clear to us that Dana and his team played a pivotal role in shaping not only what kind of products Adobe went on to develop but how they would be distributed and consumed by their users!This episode draws on Dana's extensive experience at the intersection of technology, law and policy. Here are the key references and cases we discussed:Legal Cases:Andy Warhol Foundation for Visual Arts, Inc. v. Goldsmith, 598 U.S. 508 (2023) -  The Supreme Court case that Dana argues will have an influence in the outcome of AI fair use battles (which are focussed on economic competition between uses)Thomson Reuters Enterprise Centre GmbH v. Ross Intelligence Inc., No. - 1:20-CV-613-SB (D. Del. Feb. 11, 2025) - The "Westlaw case" Dana mentioned where the judge initially ruled for the AI company but changed his mind after better understanding the technologyDana's Policy Work:Senate Judiciary Committee Testimony (July 12, 2023) - Dana's appearance before the Senate Subcommittee on Intellectual Property hearing titled "Artificial Intelligence and Intellectual Property – Part II: Copyright"Adobe's Proposed Anti-Impersonation Law - Dana's legislative proposal for federal protection against AI-powered style imitationContent Authenticity Standards:Content Authenticity Initiative (CAI) - Adobe-founded initiative with over 5,000 members working to establish content provenance standardsCoalition for Content Provenance and Authenticity (C2PA) - The formal standards organization co-founded by Adobe, Microsoft, Intel, Arm, BBC, and Truepic under the Linux FoundationC2PA Implementation in Google Pixel Phones - Recent adoption of content authenticity standards in consumer devicesIf you found this episode of Law://WhatsNext interesting, please rate, subscribe, comment, and share!

Sigge Labor, CTO at Legora, and Jacob Johnsson, Legal Engineer, dive into the revolutionary capabilities of GPT-5. They discuss how this new model enhances legal reasoning and how their battle evaluations show GPT-5 outperforms other models over 80% of the time. The conversation also explores GPT-5's steerability, enabling more interactive workflows that empower lawyers in their tasks. With real-time insights from one of the fastest-growing AI companies, this chat shines a light on the future of legal tech and its transformative potential.

Emergency drop: we grabbed Jake Jones (CPO & Co-Founder, Flank) for a quick-fire reaction to OpenAI’s ChatGPT-5 launch. We cover his day-one impressions, what it means for legal products (including Flank), and the downstream implications for how legal work gets done. A short detour from our usual programming—did you enjoy this rapid-response format? If yes, please like, rate, and share to help Law://WhatsNext reach more people.

In this compelling episode of Law://WhatsNext, hosts Tom & Alex dive into the transformative shifts underway in legal education and junior lawyer development. Joined by three visionary voices - Lucie Allen (Managing Director, Barbri), Rob Elvin (Partner, Squire Patton Boggs), and Sophie Correia (Trainee Solicitor, TravelPerk) - the discussion explores provocative ideas reshaping what it means to be a lawyer.Do Lawyers Even Need to Know the Law?Sophie Correia challenges the traditional emphasis on memorisation and technical rules in legal education. Reflecting on her real-world experiences at a tech scale-up, Sophie argues that success hinges more on human skills such as communication, empathy, and trust-building, rather than recalling obscure statutes.The Flawed Incentives of Legal TrainingRob Elvin sheds light on systemic issues stemming from the billable hour model, which prioritises short-term profitability over effective mentoring. He advocates for a groundbreaking solution: linking career progression directly to the quality of trainee supervision, potentially transforming mentorship from a luxury into an essential career catalyst.The AI DisconnectLucie Allen identifies a critical gap in legal education - the absence of meaningful engagement with AI and technology. Despite these tools reshaping the profession, current frameworks like the SQE neglect to equip trainees adequately for technological realities, posing a substantial risk to their future readiness.Three Ideas to Transform Legal Education:Continuous Learning as the New Norm: Education doesn't stop at qualification. Lucie emphasises the necessity of lifelong learning, driven by relentless curiosity and adaptation to change.Human Skills Set Lawyers Apart: Sophie highlights the enduring value of human-centric capabilities—understanding people, navigating complexity, and ethical reasoning—as indispensable traits lawyers must cultivate.Systemic Change through Collective Responsibility: Rob, Lucie, and Sophie underline the importance of personal agency and collaborative effort in driving substantial reform across education, training, and regulatory frameworks.A Hopeful Path ForwardUltimately, the podcast champions a future in which tomorrow’s lawyers blend ethical judgment, technological proficiency, and interpersonal insight, prompting listeners to reconsider not whether lawyers need to know the law, but rather what precisely they need to know—and how to prepare them best for the evolving landscape.Join us for an inspiring conversation that challenges conventional wisdom and points toward an empowered, adaptable, and human-centred future for the legal profession.

In this quarterly deep-dive, we reconnect with Peter Duffy, the brilliant mind behind the Legal Tech Trends newsletter, for our regular temperature check on what's actually happening in the legal technology landscape. Peter's ability to cut through the hype and identify real trends, combined with his practical experience helping organisations actually adopt AI, makes this a masterclass in separating signal from noise.Whether you're trying to understand why adoption is lagging despite the excitement, wondering about the strategic implications of billion-dollar acquisitions, or simply want to understand what Silicon Valley's sudden fascination with legal really means, this conversation hopefully delivers some insight.The episode kicks off with a sobering look at AI adoption across the legal profession, and the numbers might surprise you. Peter walks us through recent surveys from Bain and BCG that paint a picture quite different from the hype we're all hearing about at conferences/or on LinkedIn.The acquisition and partnership landscape is absolutely wild right now, and we break down the strategic implications of:Clio's $1 billion acquisition of vLexEudia's acquisition of the Irish ALSP Johnson HannaHarvey's strategic alliance with LexisNexisWe end discussing some personal topics of interest, including:Y Combinator's explicit call-out for startups to build "full stack AI companies" – using law firms as their prime example;The Builders Playbook: 2025 State of AI Report; andthe implications of the recent order in the New York Times v. OpenAI caseIf you found this episode interesting, please do like, subscribe, comment, and share! It helps the show rank and reach more people.. Best, Alex & Tom

We sit down with Sam Lewis, Senior Product & Privacy Counsel at Canva, who kicks things off by asking us the most important question of 2025: "If you had to be a piece of cutlery, what would you be?" Spoiler alert: Sam's a spoon (warm, empathetic, part of the emotional support crew), while Tom and Alex predictably went fork (practical go-getters with zero patience for fluff).Beyond the viral TikTok personality tests, Sam delivers cutting-edge insights into product counsel work at a company that's been building AI since 2017 - well before it was trendy. With Canva's community using AI tools over 18 billion times, Sam has become a thought leader on navigating the complex intersection of law, privacy, and AI-native product development.What makes this conversation essential listening:Sam reveals how legal teams at AI-first companies don't just manage risk - they can drive growth. Three Key Takeaways:1. Trust is the Ultimate Competitive Advantage: In an era where AI capabilities are rapidly commoditizing, trust becomes the differentiator. Sam reveals how Canva aims to be one of the world's most trusted platforms, this isn't just about compliance - it's about building products people love and companies trust.2. Privacy Instincts Are Non-Negotiable in AI-First Companies: Sam makes it clear: "I don't think it's possible to advise on AI without understanding privacy." AI is built on data, and privacy laws determine what's fair, legal, and ethical - making strong privacy instincts essential for knowing when to green light and when to pause in AI-native environments.3. Product Counsel Is Risk-Aware, Not Risk-Averse: Sam champions a philosophy that's become essential for AI-first companies: taking a risk-aware rather than risk-averse approach. To Sam this means asking the right questions, reducing unnecessary friction, and helping teams figure out how to move forward safely - often saying "how can we" instead of "we can't."The conversation touches on Canva's pioneering "AI everywhere" culture (where AI impact is now part of performance reviews), Sam's love for loud parenting, and her admiration for @sophworkbaby on Instagram (a fellow Aussie and ex-Googler) delivering plain unfiltered career insights.If you found this episode interesting, please do like, subscribe, comment, and share! It helps the show rank and reach more people.. Best, Alex & Tom

Ross McNairn, CEO and Founder of Wordsmith, brings a rare perspective to legal tech - lawyer turned software engineer turned CTO at companies like Skyscanner and TravelPerk. Our conversation spans Ross's transition from being a trainee solicitor navigating Scottish estate law to leading one of the world's fastest-growing legal AI companies, his philosophy on building lasting products over quick wins, and why he believes we're entering the era of "legal engineering."What We Cover:Building Philosophy: Why Ross spent a year quietly iterating rather than rushing to market with an MVP wrapper.The UK Opportunity: How Britain's legal heritage and technical talent create untapped advantages in the AI race.Legal Engineering Revolution: Ross's five-level competency framework transforming lawyers into product-minded operators.Market Evolution: Why the generalist legal AI era is ending and specialization is the future.Three Key Takeaways:1. Quality Over Speed Wins Long-Term: Ross's mantra: "I don't want to be the first tool that everybody buys. I want to be the last tool that they buy." While competitors rush wrappers to market, disciplined product development with 95% engineers and lawyers creates lasting competitive advantages through superior reliability and user experience.2. Legal Engineering is the New Frontier: The future belongs to lawyers who think like product managers. Ross describes customers building sophisticated systems with 50+ interconnected agents—a glimpse into legal practice where workflow orchestration, not individual task automation, drives value for in-house teams managing constant business demands.3. Invisible Quality Creates Unbeatable Moats: While everyone debates model capabilities, Wordsmith are developing rigorous "evals" testing frameworks defining world-class legal outputs. If you found this episode interesting, please like, subscribe, comment, and share!