This week, I wanted to go back and revisit an older episode. I recorded an interview with singer and songwriter Julien Baker in 2018. It was a few months after her second album came out. Since then, she’s put out another solo album, called Little Oblivions, which was critically acclaimed. And now she’s also a member of boygenius, which is the supergroup made up of Julien, Phoebe Bridgers, and Lucy Dacus. They’ve put out an EP and then, earlier this year, they put out their first full-length. Julien is a really interesting artist, and I think her songwriting is just heartbreaking, especially the song she takes apart for her episode. Here it is:Julien Baker is from Memphis, Tennessee. She released her second album, Turn Out The Lights, in October 2017, on Matador Records. The New York Times called her music "devastating" and Pitchfork gave the album Best New Music. In this episode, Julien tells the story of her song "Appointments," and how writing it helped her work through her thoughts around addiction, depression, and relationships. Julien also takes apart the track “Over,” which was written as part of “Appointments,” but then split off as a separate track.For more, visit songexploder.net/julien-baker.

Lucy Dacus is a singer and songwriter from Richmond, Virginia. She put out her first album in 2016, and in 2018 she formed the band boygenius with Julien Baker and Phoebe Bridgers. In June 2021, she released her third album, Home Video, which includes the song "Thumbs." The first time I heard it, I knew I wanted to ask Lucy about how and why she made it. After some COVID testing, we spoke in person here in Los Angeles. And she told me the story of how "Thumbs" took months and months to get right. For more, visit songexploder.net/lucy-dacus.

Growing up is never easy. But pop songs about adolescence too often gloss over the complicated moments. The “teenage dream” archetype is just a pop culture fantasy. And no one really wants to be 17 forever. On her new album “Home Video,” Lucy Dacus talks about youthful growing pains. She remembers the uncomfortable moments. Dacus says that “a lot of childhood is crisis mode… you get pushed around by the world and the rules that are set for you.” Her songs examine unequal power relationships between parents and friends and lovers. On the lighter side, the album opens up with “Hot And Heavy,” which takes us back to the scene of an early romantic encounter on a basement sofa, red faced and awkward. But by the next song, “Christine,” the amorous feelings fade: “He can be nice, sometimes / Other nights, you admit he's not what you had in mind.” Bad dads, bible camp indoctrination, and perpetual peer pressure all take the stage in Dacus’ coming of age album. Dacus says that writing about those years is “a process of extorting control over things that I didn’t have control over at the time.” With untethered teenage dreams safely behind her, Dacus now gets to reclaim the meaning of youth: “I am the narrator of my own life so I get to say what this meant.”Songs DiscussedLucy Dacus - Night ShiftFrank Zappa - Sharleenaboygenius - SouvenirLukas Graham - 7 YearsKendrick Lamar - BeyonceJustin Bieber - BabyMandy Moore - FifteenHilary Duff - Sweet SixteenThe Beatles - When I'm Sixty FourABBA - Dancing QueenSound of Music - Sixteen Going On SeventeenAvril Lavigne - 17Kings Of Leon - 17Lake Street Dive - SeventeenSharon Van Etten - SeventeenAlessia Cara - SeventeenStevie Nicks - Edge of SeventeenJanis Ian - At SeventeenMorePlaylist of coming of age songs Study on songs that references age Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices